‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ Season 5 Rewatch (Part 1)

hello and welcome back to house of r i'm jonah robinson joining me today it is the slayer of my heart mallory rubin oh forgive me shiny special one i beg of you to rip out my inadequate tongue you're my glory i am your glorificus and i'm your dreg uh dregs actually pretty cool yeah i love a minion it's buffy season five right after this this episode is brought to you by the home depot black friday is happening now at the home depot and they've got just a tree for your style space and budget make the holidays merry and bright with artificial trees starting at 49 then make it your own with ornaments and trimmings for every holiday style find your perfect tree at the number one christmas tree retailer and get low prices guaranteed on all your festive favorites at the home depot exclusions apply visit homedepot.com price match for details observe the north american dad 50s great polo collection he enters his vehicle information on carvana an offer appears in minutes remarkable he squints reads it again smiles and says dang that's a good offer the highest form of approval no haggling no hassle no one called him boss he's still on the couch astonished sell your car today on carvana.com pickup fees may apply okay quick programming reminders um buffy season five part one is today yes buffy season five part two is next week oh my god in between another episode of lanterns which are dropping on monday a new episode of ringer quest is up on the ringerverse uh feed another one coming next week wow cranking all this content cheesy crazy subscribe to the pod follow us on on socials do it at house of our pod on instagram and tiktok etc etc um email us hobbits and dragons at gmail.com send us your buffy season five thoughts we've already gotten some buffy season five emails i'd like to see even more based on how many comments we got saying where's buffy season five here it is now participate um today's episode is buffy season five episode one buffy versus dracula through episode 10 into the woods uh will there be slight smears of spoilers in the back half the season perhaps a little bit yeah what's our what's our every time we reset on this what's our process i think there are some like i would say two massive major events that happen in the back half that maybe we just don't need to talk about but um i don't know glory is a god i just feel like i kind of want to say that even though that's not something you find out to the back half of the season i support you um before we get into like our opening snapshot and everything i have a special buffy season five clip for you molly rubin and this is just like exciting this is just like a from the deepest core of my heart buffy season five message to you are you ready i'm so excited to find out what this is i hope it's riley flying away at long last close here we go and i'm still gonna make you go to that doctor that's me to you great stuff yeah someday you'll go to the doctor yep and it will because uh if i had slayer strength i'd make you go but i can't listen it's um it's an interesting season to watch while thinking of how badly i need to seek medical attention i'll say that it's been impactful you're beautiful you're luminous we want you to be well all right um anything else we need to mention before we get to the opening snapshot let's snap out of it snap let's do it delightful sound effects from carlos shout out carlos chiriboga for giving us buffy centric uh the howl of the wolf makes us think of oz oh yeah makes us think of seth green makes us think of the midnight boys makes us think of the midnight boys all right buffy season five which aired september 26th 2000 to may 22nd 2001 here are the episodes we will be talking about in brief and then one of them in depth the most important one maybe the most important episode of television ever let's talk about it and probably returning to it 20 times in the superlatives it's buffy versus dracula a very odd season premiere i kind of liked it real me the replacement out of my mind no place like home family fool for love very important iconic shadow listening to fear two like creature feature episodes back to back a lot of special effects uh questions comments or concerns on those and then at long last it's riley's departure via helicopter into the woods 10 episodes you had to wait how did how did your heart feel as that helicopter lifted off and buffy what a shame was just too late to stop him tragic after that incredibly easy to understand pitch from xander to go chase your one true love i almost punched a wall very odd fuck off xander um so you and carlos had told me because i had insisted that you tell me yes when how long will riley finn be in my life so i remember you know you have these memories in your life these core moments where you can almost see yourself outside of your body you know you're floating i can like whether this is a real memory or not i don't know probably not but i see myself like when my dad i was like bye parents are getting divorced i remember when i was wearing these memories oh when you guys said to me 10 more episodes of riley and i said 10 more episodes of riley i can see all of us looking at each other and i knew you were so upset listen i was glad to see him go and i don't mind saying it i am happy that he's gone there were some interesting riley moments in the story i thought that riley we're we're in full spoiler territory now here for these 10 episodes i thought that riley and the vamp den was pretty interesting provocative yeah pretty interesting actually i didn't mind that uh thrilled he's gone and excited to celebrate him slash uh kick him in the nuts one more time on the way out the door i feel so mixed about i mean i'm very happy he's gone that's uncomplicated um but i think it's interesting in thinking about like them writing him off i was trying to dig into sort of like what was it the other than clearly him not working as a love interest for buffy and clearly him being like a very boring character so dull uh was there were there any other reasons or at least reasons they gave and mark lucas said in an interview that he did sign on for four seasons um so imagine that horror i'd rather i would i would simply rather not um they didn't even get four more seasons actually after he started and then also um he kind of has claimed in certain interviews that it was like his idea that he's like riley's not really doing anything what do you say we write him off and i'm like okay mark if you need mark lucas seems absolutely lovely delightful wonderful person um the fact that they wrote off riley without killing him is something i always applaud like let's get a little bit more inventive than just like killing him off and they really they knew when they started the season that that's what they were doing so they sort of really slow rolled it but i think as a result what that means is that a lot of the riley stuff kind of dominates the first half of the season in a very unfortunate way when i was watching the first 10 episodes i was like do i really like season five yeah you know and then i think it there's enough good stuff in the first half and then the back half is like once he's gone huge sigh of relief everything is is uh yes spike just kind of slides into uh you know this role um and uh raising and it's exactly what i wanted to be so um i riley is not the only reason i'm not the only reason i'm not the only reason for this but i will say overall without spoiling the particulars of the back half we're gonna talk about those those 12 12 episodes those 12 episodes in just mere days i like season five overall i put it third probably on my power ranking which is a living document until the end of the run i think right now i'm three two five four one okay probably i'm not i'm flip one and four yeah yeah uh the first season i'm not the only reason i'm not the only reason i'm not the only the first half of this season is not my favorite chunk of episodes that we'll ever be discussing some highs as you noted but a lot of things that i loved about the show kind of changed in this stretch of episodes and i don't mind spoiling that the back half is one of my favorite stretches even though there are some episodes in there that are not you know all-time bangers because there are a few episodes and just creative choices that are i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i have a deeper understanding of the way that this show has impacted not only people i love like you uh but storytelling because of some of the things that happened in the back half of this season my favorite episode of the show to date is in the back half of this season and i think two of the certainly two of the 10 best episodes um that i have seen so far are in the back half of the season so i'm very excited for next week's pod i don't know what your second one is that's exciting we'll find out we will we will and that could change because i have to re-watch them all still but i mean there's one that's just undeniable obviously i mean undeniable to your to your point uh yeah the way in which you know we've had this category sort of throughout this idea of like school is hell as a category and i just took it out of the dock uh this time Because, like, they just kind of – there are a couple scenes of – where they kind of pretend that Buffy is still going to college, but, like – and, like, Tara and Willow live in the most ridiculous-looking dorm rooms you've ever seen, but they're still in school. But, like, other than that, the idea that this is a show centered around young people going to school – I mean, Dawn's going to junior high, I guess – but, like, is not really a thing anymore. And that's sad because it takes out – and we talked about this in the move from high school to college. But even more so here, it takes out this unifying principle of, like, we all do something together. Yes. And so they kind of try to replace it with, like, Giles buys the magic box and everyone – like, Anya officially works there, which is great. Everything with, like, Anya and Giles own the magic box, I think, is 10 out of 10 no notes. And then, like, Xander and Willow and Tara are often just, like, they're kind of also working there sometimes. You know? And which is, like, a little clunky, but, like, that's their replacement for we all go to school together. And then something I really struggled with these first 10 episodes – and, again, one of my favorite episodes of all time is in this trunk. An amazing one. I cannot be mad about it. But I was, like, really missing the Willow and Buffy stuff. And I was, like – This is my single biggest note. There's barely any one-on-one Willow and Buffy conversation. Like, they talk about Dawn a little bit. They talk about Joyce a little bit. But, like, in this first half, it's, like, Willow is Tara's girlfriend and learning some magic stuff, but not really a character. And I looked it up because I was, like, what's going on? And I believe Allison Hannigan was filming American Pie 2 while she was making this season. So I think she was, like, a bit preoccupied. She's kind of, like, you know, lead of that movie. And so I think – I think that ate up some of her time and they accommodated that schedule. But, like, I couldn't really understand why Willow was so absent from the first half of the season. Yeah. It's – I feel very similarly. So the volume of Riley stuff, obviously, just, for me, never going to be my favorite stretch of episodes. Okay. The college thing that you just noted is a huge, huge bummer to me. Like, I love, love, love that part of school. Now, both the – the presence of school and the school setting in their lives and the friendship aspects in which member of the Scoobies and which, like, you know, duo or trio inside of a larger friend group spends the most time with each other. It's a little bit of a piece in the sense that there's a part of me that's, like, okay, things change in people's lives. And I actually like that, right? But I think that in the we can carry multiple truths in our mind at once version of assessing this, it's sort of undeniable. And that it doesn't quite feel the same when the – and we talked about this, obviously, in the season four pods. Like, I love high school stories and coming-of-age stories. I love college stories as well. And so college was a really interesting, like, as you are continuing to learn about yourself and new people and things and ideas and interests are coming into your life. Like, I missed that setting. I think the need for Buffy to be focused on family was a kind of bold, creative – okay, sometimes terrible things happen in people's lives. Yes. There are changes. And I think that that is actually really interesting as a creative decision. I found myself so badly missing Willow and Buffy and Willow Xander and Buffy specifically. And just in general, that college setting of, like, you're running into some guy you fucked the night before at the dining hall and he's a dick now. Like, that stuff feels so central to kind of where we have found these characters so far. And so it almost felt to me a little bit like, again, I'm putting these things separate. Something terrible has happened. Your mother is sick. We're trying to be present for your kid sister who's actually the MacGuffin that is the key. That's in a different bucket. But, like, it almost felt – I think in part because everybody is also in very serious relationships. Like, we fast-forwarded multiple years in everybody's life. You know what I mean? Everyone feels so old, especially when they're, like, looking after – like, when Tara and Willow are looking after Dawn or Xander and Anya are looking after Dawn, they feel like they're, like, late 20s. Yeah. Not – they're supposed to be 20. Yeah. And maybe in some cases 19. And they're behaving like they're in their late 20s all of a sudden. Yeah. Like, you know, especially I think we have the fun apartment hunt with Xander. And I did think that the Xander episode was wonderful. I really liked that episode. Delightful. Yeah. But I was almost like, wait, it feels like everyone's ready to put down a mortgage, not just, like, sign a lease. Yeah. All that said, Joyce – because one of the things I lamented about season four was, like, where's Joyce? So, Joyce and Buffy. That relationship, for deeply tragic reasons, being so centered was something that I found very impactful. I think Glory is incredibly fun from the word go. Yeah. And the Spike stuff in this season is iconic and god-tier and, like, unbelievably powerful. So there's a lot of great stuff in this season, too. Again, I think the second half is better. I was going to save this for the Giles categories, but I will just note it at the top as we talk about kind of big-picture thoughts. I have some bones to pick about what I will now be calling the de-daddying of Giles. What the fuck is this about? What is this? Now, Giles going through his – am I useful? Like, the ongoing journey of assessing what role he plays in their lives, I found that very touching. And the magic box, that's fun. We need a new location. Okay. New HQ for the Scoobies. Our guy Giles. Jenny. Yeah. Band Candy. Yeah. Olivia. Yeah. The gigs. Yeah. Singing and strumming. This guy, who is walking, oozing sex, bought a place called Magic Box, and, like, very few sexy things happened with Giles inside of this season. I consider it a crime and a scandal. Just the season premiere, I guess, so far. Let's talk about that. Okay. So, Dracula is the first season premiere not written by Joss. I liked Dracula. No, I – That's fun. I medium like it. I mean, it's not an all-timer, but it was entertaining. I'll reserve the main reason I don't like it, actually, for one of the categories. Okay. Exciting. First season premiere not written by Joss, Marty Noxon gets the honors, and Marty will take over the show in season six a bit, like, while Joss is busy doing Firefly and other things. Okay. So, she's, like, really the heir apparent. No two-parters, which really stuck out to me when I was sort of, like, doing these notes on top of the season four notes. And, like… There's so many two-parters in the season four, and in the first three seasons, of course. Yeah. And the fact that that idea is kind of gone here in season five is interesting. But more direct crossovers with Angel. Fool for Love, most of all, which is, like, really hard for me to, like, not try to make you watch Darla, which is the Angel episode that came out. They were so heavily advertised together. The same flashbacks are in both episodes, except from different points of view. Okay. And so, for example, when Angel is being such a little, like, being so pissy at Spike about killing the Slayer during the Boxer Rebellion, it's not just that he's, like, jealous and mad that Spike killed the Slayer. He's actually re-insulted at that point. You just, like, don't know it when you're watching Buffy, and then you watch that scene from his point of view in Angel, and he's, like, pretending to still be a vampire, but he's, like, let's get out of here and not kill any more people. Interesting. Interesting. So, I considered… You considered watching it. Yeah. Because I thought that Full for Love was one of the most important installments in the history of television. Correct. You're right about it. You're right about that. You should say so. It just could not have been better. It was wonderful. Yeah. And so, I thought, okay, the fact that there's another, like, a connected hour that could give me more of this, how could I deprive myself of it? I remain steadfast, though, that I will not watch Angel out of order. I just don't want to do it. It's just… Contrary to how I like to consume things. It's just very… It's very plotty. But then again, like, mild spoiler for the back half of season five, Drusilla shows up and kind of spoils some stuff that's happening in Angel when she shows up in the back half of season five of this show. And so, like, I was like, uh, maybe she could have watched that episode, Darla. Anyway, something to think about. But this is the last time that Angel and Buffy will be on the same network because after this season, Buffy moves to the UPN. Right. The UPN. To UPN. Uh, and Angel's still on the WB. And so they can't really do these kinds of direct crossovers anymore once that happens. Okay. So this is sort of the last time they'll be that interconnected. Hmm. We will still see some cross-pollination, but it'll be, like, a special dispensation in order to do it. Got it. Um… I did like seeing Darla again. Yeah. It was fun. Great. Got a kick out of her. Drusilla being here. Fun. Always great. Um, only three episodes this season were written and directed by Joss Whedon, and I think it shows. And in this first half, it's just the episode Family. Right. Which, I actually really like that episode, uh, as well. Me too. A very, uh, thinly-veiled metaphor, but, uh, you know, hey, Amy Adams is here, and that's always fun. Fucking Beth. Yeah. Cousin Beth. Yeah, I like that episode as well. Looking through who are central to these first ten episodes, it's, like, Buffy. A Buffy episode, a Dawn episode, a Xander episode. I really like that Xander episode. Me too. Delightful. Riley, Joyce-ish, Glory, kind of, Tara, Spike, Joyce, Riley. And it's, like, again. Where's Willow? Also, you said Riley more than once, so I'll tell you. Just qualify. Come on. Just qualify. But this season is, this is the season with the highest ratings. number of cast members with eight members of the principal cast from the episode Real Me to Into the Woods, which is wild. And we haven't even talked about Dawn yet. Dawn. Tell me everything. Well, no, I want to hear from you. Like, I know you knew she was coming. I did. Yes. But I would like you to imagine. OK, let me set the stage for you. Please. Yeah. I as I mentioned when we did season four, I skipped season four because I was like in the dorms, especially New York College. We didn't have we didn't watch TV that way. And I just like didn't watch it. And I didn't even catch up over the summer because like, I don't know, I just didn't have that. I don't know. Yeah. I maybe saw an episode or two there, but I didn't I didn't watch it. And then a friend of mine who turned out to be a very bad friend, but she was my Buffy friend for a little while and she was into Buffy. Yeah. And so beginning of sophomore year, she's like, come over and we'll watch the season five premiere. Yeah. And so we watched Buffy together a bit that year. But I go over to her house. We're watching season five, episode one. And I was like, Dracula's here. What? Yeah. And then I was like, what's going on with the show? And then Dawn's here and like no clue that was coming, you know, so like the shock of of Dawn's appearance, not to mention some of the other surprises that wait at the end of the season is just like, yeah, everyone was like, what the hell is going on here? Yeah. Yeah. And then the next episode, you know, sort of. But but even when you when you rewatch Buffy versus Dracula, at the beginning of the episode, when Joyce is like, I'm going to have to get used to the house being so empty without you, you know what I mean? So it's like, OK, even as soon as several scenes ago, Dawn did not exist. Yeah. So what was your reaction to her arrival? How did you feel she was used in this first half year? So this is one of the things about coming to a show with distance. Right. I think I definitely told you this. I can't remember if I said it on the pod or not. But, you know, you boot the show up. You boot up Buffy on Hulu. Oh, yeah. And the picture, the main art for this for the series is Dawn and Buffy. So I was like, huh, this is Dawn. This is Dawn who I've like her. I knew that Dawn was in the show, but I didn't really know like any particulars that she was the key. The key. I think I did not know that she was Buffy's sister. And I think I would not have understood how that could be possible, obviously. Right. But what I did know is that Dawn was going to become a major character. So that was kind of in my mind in a way that as soon as she appeared in the fifth season. It's crazy to say fifth season. I know. On the one hand, I'm like, I can't believe that we have only two more to go. Yeah. That's God. We're near the end. It's sad. I kind of liked the Dawn stuff. Yeah. I think that the for a couple of reasons. Though I have a question for you. One of the things that I didn't like as much, I'm really trying hard not to spoil back half of the season stuff as I say this. I'll keep it in check. And we have a Dawn specific category, so I'll hit more of the particulars when we get there that maybe like kind of flesh some of this out just broadly. Yeah. I did want to ask you how much of this, if there's a sense of like what was determined versus discovered in real time, because it is a little bit, there's more and especially rewatching these first 10 episodes, because, you know, I watched the whole season, and then I'm rewatching these episodes for the part one pod. It's like, are they trying to fake? How was it like we knew where this was going, but we're trying to just fake people out and put them on their heels that Dawn might know who she is, know why she's there, have malicious intent, because there are more moments like that. Oh, yeah. No, they knew. It was a fake out sort of thing. So when she's like, you know, she has no idea who I am or whatever. And like the kind of very malicious, like, I'm going to make Joyce tea. I kind of like that, though. Like we find out when Buffy finds out. That like what Dawn is. I didn't mind it at all. I was more curious, like, yeah, were they actually open to a couple different paths potentially? Or was it always she was always assured? And then so, OK, I despite missing the we're in the dorms, we're at college, we are in this very particular and specific college is college. And there's kind of nothing like it phase of our lives. I really liked in general just Buffy being back at home, back in the summer's home, back in the craftsman. Joyce being back is. That relationship is so crucial. And so Dawn as a one of the it's not just about Joyce. It's like Dawn is a reason, a real reason that Buffy has to be thinking about her family. Right. She has this responsibility to a kid sister. And I like the way that it evolved inside of these episodes and beyond from the real kind of like sisterly bickering and resentment. My kid sister and Dawn has her resentment. My sister's a slayer. No one can understand it. But into in part because of the conversation in the stretch of episodes that Joyce and Buffy have about it when Joyce has her clarity. Right. Buffy resists and resents and then decides to protect. And I've always loved those aspects of Buffy's story. So this felt like a really new and fresh, but of a piece way to give us that aspect of Buffy's character where it is. There are so many aspects of this responsibility that she finds maddening and cold and they pull her away from the parts of her life that she wants to live. And then because she's Buffy, not because she's the slayer, because she's Buffy, she does it anyway. So I really liked what Dawn unlocked on that front. I thought there was some obviously just very funny, like my sister is fucking her boyfriend, so I have to leave the house stuff. And she has a crush on Xander stuff like all that's kind of fun. Anya and Dawn interacting iconic. It was hard not to pick that for like 40 categories. But the thing I liked best about it is the Linda Lafian thing that we've talked about on a million pods, like the greatest answer to a million pods. To a mystery is a person. The greatest answer to a mystery is a person. It's just like, it's a great one. So yeah, Linda Laf first says that in regards to Desmond, but I think Dawn is like the like perfect example of that. What do you mean when you say the greatest answer? What is the key? The key is Dawn. She's a child. She's a child that everyone has memories of all of a sudden. The way in which like Willow interacts with her, you know, and the way in which when you rewatch it, you know she's the key. When you rewatch the season from the beginning and Willow says stuff like, oh, I don't know. I just always kind of feel protective of Dawn because of XYZ. They're like programmed to protect not just Buffy, but everyone is programmed to be protective of Dawn, which I think is like really, really sweet. The Dawn stuff, I would say, especially in this first stretch of the episodes, really works for me better than I remember it working for me. And I'll be curious if that remains true for the rest of rewatch or if the character will wear out a welcome. Interesting. I'll be curious to watch that. Like, am I enjoying her character right now because I'm approaching it as a, you know, at a different time in my life or I'm interested in different kind of storytelling or have we just not gotten to the stretch of Dawn that I'm just like, Dawn, she's still here. I could definitely see being a younger person watching this and being like, Dawn is fucking annoying. I'm good on Dawn. I could definitely see that. But I guess I'm glad you brought up Willow and Xander and like the fact that everybody, because we've talked about this in other contexts, like a black mirror kind of, can you trust your own mind idea is something I really like. So this idea of these false implanted, forced upon you invasive memories, right? Meddling with your mind so that you don't have a sense of what is real in your own life is so nefarious and insidious and foul. But it doesn't mean that the thing they feel for Dawn is not real, which is so interesting. It's just so interesting. So yeah, like something about the way Willow calls her Donnie, you know, there's like a depth of history and connection there that we come to understand rationally, logically is false. But it doesn't feel that way to them. Like when the monk is dying and says to Buffy, like, she doesn't know that about Dawn. She doesn't know that. You didn't want to do the accent. So as you know, Adam had seen Buffy and loves Buffy and is watching it again with me and having a great time. One of the things that he just could not stop laughing about this season was that I would say I would have to do an actual count. Maybe I'll keep track when we prep for part two, but I'm going to say 95% of the previously ons included that scene. I was wondering why it was so indelible to me. And I was like, oh, because you've watched it every single time. Every single episode. Incredible. All right. So here's what Whedon said about why they put Dawn in the show, right? Our mission statement for season five was family. When you think you've moved on and grown up and moved out of the house and are living your life, family comes back. You realize you're not alone. You're not alone. You're not alone. You're not alone. You realize that they're always a part of your life. Also a very strong message with me is you make your own family or sometimes it's made for you by monks. So the introduction of Dawn were enacted. The meeting of Tara's family, all that stuff was very deliberate. We knew year one of college is freedom and not a lot of mom, but Christine Sutherland luckily was spending a year in Italy. So it was perfect. When we said perfect, then you'll come back and you'll be very heavy in season five and then yada, yada, yada. So Glory and Buffy having similar motivations, which is for Glory, she just wants to go home. And for Buffy, it's to defend her home. And they're both after her. Find the key, protect the key sort of thing. Also this idea of family as the one episode that Joss writes and directs inside of these first 10 episodes. He's like, here's the theme of the season and here's an episode that we've titled family in which Tara's shitty family try to make her feel bad for being gay. I mean, actually at college. And a demon and whatever um and Buffy has the line like we're family um I think especially after one of the scenes I love the most in family is when Xander and Buffy are talking about getting a present for Tara for her birthday and they're like she's so not she's so nice they don't know anything about her so nice but like but like I don't really but she's so nice and we like really like her but uh you know and then and but then when it's like time to circle the wagons Buffy's like we're gonna fucking circle the wagons around Tara let me tell you what I really like that as well and I think it's you know our our Scoobies are not perfect people right they make mistakes and they're very giving and very generous and very empathetic but they're also because they're young people in the world and this is true very selfish and very insular sometimes and so I like the idea and I mean that that quote that you just read you know hits on both aspects of this because it has been so powerful you know a thing I found myself watching this season that Buffy has not also known Xander and Willow their entire life that's the Xander Willow bond you know the like I'm proving I'm the real Xander but the Snoopy dance and I had to keep reminding myself that they have only known Buffy for a few years and Buffy has only known them for a few years because it feels like they've known each other all since they took their first breath right and so the fact that it was so powerful and life-altering for the three of them to forge that found family with each other but that on just some level I think it's level they haven't welcomed Tara into that and Anya and Anya and like I like I love the bickering between Anya and Willow right and like the I thought that the moments were Tara voiced with some degree of like I sometimes it was well I'm asking you this because of Dawn not because of me and then sometimes there was a little bit more like it's not all about your friends maybe that was about lashing out but boy it's tough to feel like you're outside of the Scooby gang right and that you it's so easy to understand that how true that would be totally that you you looked at and witnessed this this kind of unbreakable unflinching thing and you were close to it and you were very close to one person inside of it but you knew that you weren't a part of it that's like really painful and so I loved this episode acknowledging that and interrogating it and then finding a way to like widen the circle a little bit something I love about like the fact that it's challenging for Tara it's challenging for Anya you know Dawn is the kid sister is like you know knocking on the door um Spike is you know has his own motivations for wanting to be closer to them etc um why does he but then you think back to someone like Oz who like it was so easy for him because he's just Oz and he just doesn't like overthink these things and he's just sort of like I'm here here I am now I'm a part of it you know what I mean yeah or Cordelia didn't really care that much about being a part of it so she like was but she was also like but I could take it or leave it I'm fine yeah um but she still had that that thing Cordelia still thing had that thing with Xander where she was just sort of like your precious Buffy like your precious Willow like you'll never choose me over them um on the family front I just want to shout out yes Amy Adams is here uh Kevin Rankin who shows up in like one gajillion tv shows front end lights lost you know Justified yeah the devil himself on Justified like I just love seeing Kevin Rankin every time he's a piece of shit in this episode but you know and then Tom Link I want to shout out Tom Link uh is in season five episode two he plays one of Harmony's minions Harmony is minions incredible stuff from Harmony in these episodes um Tom Link is a very plays a very important character season six um how exciting and so it's just one of those moments where you're just sort of like oh Tom Link came in and played like a random minion I think you never see him out of his vampire makeup as that minion right and so then like when they brought him back to play someone else entirely they were just sort of like you won't know this it's fine okay but it's really weird to see him there um and then I just want to shout out Miss Kitty Fantastico this is her last appearances in family um nothing like happens to her they just kind of like forget she exists and I just really love her and wanted to give her flowers same obviously same yeah uh here's another Whedon quote on Dawn and sort of what they want to do this season he's like in the same way Dawn was the next Riley ominous when we did Dawn part of the mission statement was let's have a really important intense emotional relationship for Buffy that is not a boyfriend because let's not have her be defined by her boyfriend every time out of the bat so season five she's as intense as she was in season two with Angelus but it's about her sister to me that was really beautiful and I love that as a mission statement I don't know that I agree yeah that this especially these first two ten episodes are not Buffy as defined by her relationship with Riley totally and then like the spike Buffy dynamic becomes very definitional uh going forward and so um there's something our producer Carlos said that he really loved about season five that he was like it's not as much about Buffy and her boyfriends and in like a certain way it's not and I I agree with that but I think in other ways it doesn't really fulfill that prompt especially given how much time is spent on the Buffy Riley dynamic in these first ten episodes so yeah I'm willing to return to that idea in the second part of the season not in this one though anything else you want to say about the magic box is the new library I feel like we already kind of touched I think just that even more so than the high school library this really pushed the ability to accept that nobody hears what they're talking about and has follow-up to it I think that's a really good point I think that's a really good question it's like it's just I mean especially when this becomes a booming hub of commerce yeah and there's just their like dedicated research table that's like you know in the middle of the store hilarious yeah uh yeah uh Joyce we'll get into more in part two yes glory wonderful what do you want to say fun uh really really fun yeah really really fun um I you know the second that we see Ben for the first time literally the second that we see him for the first time and he introduces himself at the hospital and he's in his scrubs I'm an intern they're very shortly thereafter we're running into him again he's picking up pills from the floor like this guy's gonna be connected to something yeah you know immediately and I do you think maybe he would be like a new love interest for Buffy I think a lot of people that's what a lot of people thought was just sort of like we're seeding in another possibility if Riley's leaving for sure yeah um glory is you know I think I I I don't mind spoiling the category but glory will be returning in fit watch you know just just some iconic looks from the word go red leather dress that she wore I mean red is her her look but there's this one like sort of burgundy red I think when she goes into the magic box to buy uh incredible some items that was very funny that whole sequence like really amazing um so yeah it's a it's a strong start and uh you know obviously more to discuss uh in the next pod but very intriguing and captivating it's just kind of purely entertaining yeah right away and then there are a lot very fun and then there are a lot of like very intriguing parallels that are also nice it's interesting so this like idea of like so glorificus the beast that which cannot be named the abomination not the only harry potter reference this season um a literal god so okay that's something we find out in the back half but I feel like it's worth talking about here to go from vampire the master to vampire angelus or spiker drusilla whoever you decide is the big bad of season two to a demon the mayor to uh a fucking initiative um a franken franken adam whatever tough it's really tough when the initiative comes back this season you're like no graham go away um insane moment right with the double xander riley's like doesn't anybody else just want to put them in separate rooms and do experiments oh no nobody else wants me to reference the initiative which we all love it so much just like get this guy out of the show like this is episode three I have seven more to go um to a god yeah and I guess the question I have uh and we'll ask ourselves at the end of the season where do we go from here where do we go from here from a god to where okay so what was jesus my fucking brain when was which season was the first evil oh uh amend season three so I remember at the time being like that feels like one to file away and especially with glory here the conversations in this stretch of episodes about like can't find anything in the books possible possible that it predates language itself the idea of something not new but in fact very old that feels like maybe something we'll return to I have no idea in in the next two seasons so that's a possibility um while I really liked glory I really like glory I uh I I we didn't say this at the top I do think this stretch of episodes in particular felt a little vamp light to me yeah a little vampire light so she's the the first big bad without even any vampire minions yeah the initiative had some like vampire stuff going on with them yeah I don't want to lose the obviously we have I mean spike is here we get the the the vamp junkie den there are there are vampires harmonies here with her minion her gang incredible stuff but like it I don't I hope we don't lose the episode I don't want to lose the episode I don't want to lose the episode the tether to that core threat you know something where like we have the the queller episode the meteor crashes and it's like what oh well it's our extraterrestrial like the idea that we keep widening and widening isn't some with queller insane stuff in some ways it's the snake it's the snake monster and the queller back to back that I really if I had if I had been in the season five uh writers I might have been like do we want to put something between these two episodes maybe it's better to just get it out of the way get them out of the way back to back but yeah it's like I don't know the idea that the anything that is paranormal or supernatural would be uh The purview of the Slayer and the Scoobies is fun and gives the show room to evolve and play. But there is something about just the vampire Slayer of it all that I think needs to remain central. And Gloria's like, ugh, a Slayer, how beneath me. How fucking common. That was pretty funny. Yeah. So Claire Kramer, who I don't know why I'm stuttering over her name. If you rewatch Bring It On, which of course features the great Eliza Dushku, Claire Kramer is also very important in that movie. And so that's like such a fun like Buffy adjacent to have like faith and glory in Bring It On anytime you want to go watch that particular movie. A Buffy double, obviously, they cast her, you know, what do they say? Like petite, blonde, fashionable, you know, quippy, like all this sort of stuff like that. Like she's supposed to be a Buffy double. But also a Cordelia sort of replacement. Like if they're feeling like an absence of that sort of bitchy Buffy energy. Yeah. That Cordelia brought. A lot of sass. And they lampshade it, right? Like she was kind of like Cordelia actually is what Buffy says. They lampshade the magic box too. Like Xander says something about like you ever think you'd miss the high school library, right? Like we know what we're doing. We're giving you a Cordelia replacement. We're giving you a high school library replacement in these moments. And we're just going to say it. But I just think it's interesting about like we talked about all these doublings or these sort of like mirror reflections. Like faith as the dark side of Buffy. Or like, you know, what do all these foils bring to us? This season, I don't know why it seems different to me to like talk about it as like a schism within. Yeah, sure. You know, the demon and the not demon parts of Spike, which we will talk about. Or just sort of like the like losing your mind aspect of all of these. Or like what is Dawn? Is she an entity? Is she a little girl? How is she? How can she be both? And the fake demon inside of Tara, you know, like the splitting of Xander into his best self and his most hapless self. I was definitely, I definitely had my like most hapless self Xander morning this morning when I was telling Arjuna I dumped my smoothie all over me. And then I nearly got into an accident on the freeway. I also nearly got in a car accident this morning. And then when you waved to me in the parking garage, that was right when I had dropped my laptop out of my laptop bag onto the concrete ground. Out of the parking garage. And I was just like, should I just go home? That's what it felt like today. Oh, boy. All right. This is. Oh, we got an email I thought that was interesting about lanterns and Buffy from one of our listeners. Pat wrote in to say, this last episode of lanterns got me very much thinking about relationships between people competing for the same role and Buffy in particular. Kendra came into the show as the proto slayer. Buffy called her technique flawless, but then observed. She still would have kicked Kendra's ass. Too much rule following and listening to superior is not enough improvisation and charting your own path. John is very much the Kendra in the situation and needs to learn to let go a bit. His strict upbringing and his searching for the right answers at moments to give the guardians are proof of that. But is how Buffy or how much faith does he have in him? The ring choosing him being the ultimate justification for anything he feels is necessary. He has Sinestro whispering in his ears and he is far from a Boy Scout in the comics. I love how wide open both characters paths feel right now. I can really see how going a variety of directions before the season ends. Interesting. So I just love thinking about that. But like this idea and in all of our like lanterns research that we've been doing as we process that show, the idea of the lantern as someone to like the flat like there's Superman. That's Clark Kent and there's Batman and that's Bruce Wayne and there's Wonder Woman and that's Diana Prince. Right. You know, and then there's like Green Lantern, which can be a number. It's a it's a rank. Yeah. It's a moniker. And, you know, so thinking about the guardians and the watchers and like, you know, this idea of it being. Yeah. The watchers don't get to pick the Slayer. Right. But they feel like they are the tether for the Slayer. You know. Seek to control and guide. Yeah. I mean, it's a great email to consider on the heels of what you were just tracking about the various doubles or versions of that we've gotten because I, you know, to the Toth. Zander point. You know, I wondered why you didn't wave back. And now I know. My car's so dirty that you couldn't tell it was me. I was like. Genuinely, my laptop was craning to the ground as you waved to me. Stop. I really, I really loved. I'm stepping on, I think, if I remember the pics, I made a pic that I had for one of the categories. But like, I really loved the way that that led Buffy to think about the different aspects of herself. And not only what might be appealing for other people in her life. Like that fucking drip Riley. But for her. So you think about like someone else's aversion or a mirror or a double. But then thinking about the versions of you that you carry inside of yourself. And whether those could possibly exist independent of each other. Right. But also like, I love that episode. Episode three. Not just because that shot of the two Zanders sort of laughing. Oh, yeah. Goofily at each other. Will be in the opening credits for the rest of the show. And so it's just like one of those like indelible images for me. But like. But just the idea of like. The best version of you gets splintered off. And you see them accomplish these things. And you're like. That there has to be magic or sorcery or, you know, the shiny little coin thing or like whatever is afoot. Because I certainly there's nothing in me. That could achieve. That could have ever accomplished that. That's just, I think, a stunning thing to think about. All right. Anything else you want to say before we get into my favorite episode? Let's do it. This episode is brought to you by Panda Express. Telling someone you love them. It isn't always easy, but showing them through food. Sometimes that's better than words, especially when that food's wok cooked at Panda Express. A Joe has favorite pick from delicious classics. Like orange chicken, honey walnut shrimp, Kung Pao chicken, and black pepper sirloin steak. Perfect for when you're watching the team you love or eating with the person you love. Have you eaten yet? Click or tap the banner to order or visit a Panda Express near you. This holiday, all plans, even unlimited, are just $15 a month. A holiday deal this good obviously deserves an enormously expensive holiday song. Like, all I want. Right. Okay, we can't afford that. You know what? Forget the music budget. We're going to stick with. Whatever's in the public domain. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for a 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy. See terms. This episode is brought to you by TXU Energy. If you're looking for a better way to save on electricity, both night and day, look no further than TXU Energy. Free nights and cool summer. It gives you free energy all night, every night, all year long. Plus, at $20. 25% bonus toward your daytime use every summer. It's the only plan that lets you use free energy to get more savings. So while nights are always free, summer days are now always discounted. With savings like that, you'll never look at a free night's plan the same way again. Learn more at TXU.com. Rep number 1-0-0-0-4. All right. Wait, your favorite episode. Not ever. I mean, that's passion. No, but I was having to. Yeah, it's definitely passion. But I was having to reconsider my top five because like it's definitely. It's definitely passion and definitely like, you know, surprise and innocence are up there. And some of the ones that we haven't gotten to or gotten to discuss yet are certainly. But like, I genuinely think Fool for Love has to be in the top five for me. It's so good. It might be a number five, but it might be higher. I just need to like, to your point, it's a living document. But I just need to like, I was like, there's. I don't think when I've like rattled off my top Buffy episodes that this has been one that I've named. But it is one that I go back to again and again. And it was one that you were partially familiar. With because I had pulled out clips from it in some of our previous episodes, trying to find a non-spoiler way to do it, but really kind of failing. Season five, episode seven, Fool for Love, written by Doug Petrie, directed by Nick Mark. Nick Mark, I want to say, directed Something Blue, an episode we really loved. Love. Fool for Love, Checkpoint, which is later this season. It's a good episode. Life Zero, which is a good episode. Double Meat Palace, which is an infamous episode. But I'll be. I'll be curious how you feel about it. Beneath You, which is a great episode, and Conversations with Dead People, which is an Alzheimer episode. So like a really, a really good track record for this particular director. This is another episode, another banger, episode seven. We talked about this previously, like Lie to Me and some other like incredible episodes that we've highlighted before have been the seventh episode of a given season. I wanted to read this email from our listener, Allie, who said, Spiked on the subway in Fool for Love was the hottest thing I had ever seen. Cosign. In 2026, rewatching it, James Marsters remains top tier hot. But I was struck by how perfect the writing and editing are to make the moment work. Yeah. This whole episode, and especially the transition to Spike speaking directly to Buffy within the memory, is a swing even for a show accustomed to taking swings. But the way it's cut together works, keeping you in the moment with Buffy as she's working through her desires and destiny. And so on. I found myself sort of horny for the skill of storytelling as well as for the eyeliner and a British accent. Yeah, why not both, you know? Tell me your top line thoughts about Fool for Love. Oh my God, I thought it was magical. That email actually really captures it quite well because it is an incredibly sexy episode. You know, the Buffy spike dynamic. I continue to be sort of awed by the show's ability to give us a little taste of a thing it knows we want without going all the way in. It's just unbelievable. So, you know, we had our we're under a spell and suddenly going to get married, snuggling on Giles' armchair, something blue stretch, which was just very powerful and wonderful. You know, we've gotten different versions of it. We build inside of this season. Impossible to leave this out of the categories, but the sex dream that Spike has when he realizes how he feels about Buffy at the end of episode four. Shout out the episode art for that episode. For spoiling that that was coming in the episode. I was like, what's this? But, you know, we kept getting little. And this is a thing across stories. Someone has a dream. So you get to see your shipping. You're in a will, they won't they. And you get to see them kiss, but they haven't actually the show or the book. It's not really. Not onto that place where they can't walk it back. Yeah. So you can keep the tension, that palpable yearning and need of the tension alive. This is just an incredible version of it. And I think that this in Fool for Love, I mean, it's a, it's a wonderful, wonderful Spike episode, but it's also a wonderful Buffy episode. And that is what sends it into the stratosphere. Structurally, creatively, this idea of like, I am vulnerable. It's like a fucking wound to the gut. What is happening? What is going on? There's a sense of vulnerability more broadly for Buffy because like Joyce is not feeling well. There's this larger sense of like, you know, we have a great moment with Anya. And Glory beat the shit out of her. Glory kicked Buffy's ass, right? Handled her with ease. Uh, we have something like Anya. You know, I loved the little Xander's trying to be like suave by mimicking Riley's massage. And Anya's like, ow, I dislocated my shoulder. But then that, it's comedy, but it builds toward a very sweet and poignant Anya-Xander conversation about like, oh, you've realized what it means to be human. So there's this sense across the season of just confronting some level of the ticking clock, right? And so then Buffy and Giles having that moment where Buffy's like, I need to understand. I need to understand what has happened to the Slayers before so that I can avoid that. I need to avoid that happening to me. And the delicious moment of realizing that the Slayers, their journals, the histories, the Watcher accounts, no one will be able to answer that question because the Slayer died. The only person who could do it is Spike, who took down two, is just like one of the all-time chef's kiss premise moments for how to get them in this place where Buffy is seeking the counsel of this figure who has been a simultaneous foe, you know, nemesis, threat, pain in the ass, and multiple times now, an ally. Always of need, right? Some sort of like, there's some sort of convenient moment or reason that they have to team up. But there's something more so for Spike than for Buffy that draws them to each other beyond that. Almost always. Except like in a few episodes before this one in Family. Yes. When he shows up and he's like, I'm going to watch these demons kill her. And then he like- I don't care what happens. And just eats and saves her and not just saves her, the object of his crush, but like does this solid for Tara. I mean, he punches her in the face, but like, you know, when he says, I like you to her dad, when he's like, you're a real piece of shit. I like you. But like, that's something that he does that is like an ally thing to do. Yeah. And there's like a, I mean, obviously- Wrapped up in violence because of Spike. Spike is always doing horrible things. The way he treats Harmony continues to be like totally reprehensible, you know. But he is like, he's just such a fascinating figure because I find, you know, when we watch across this season, him sink back into bad tendencies or his true nature, depending on how you, like what lens you're looking at it through. It's interesting to kind of consider when we shift in our internal assessment of Spike from a bad guy who's capable of good things to someone I have convinced myself can be a hero. And then he backslides. And then the show reminds you of who he actually is. It sure is, yeah. So it's just amazing. And then getting the glimpses of history and like something like, you know, realizing that the monikers, right? William the Bloody and even just Spike and the Railroad Spikes, like that these were wounds that other people, things people said about him to hurt him. Your poetry is so bad, you're William the Bloody. And the idea of Spike as a character who reclaims something to say this is a source of my, my spin doctoring is always on and I'm going to like lean into this as something that is a badge of honor for me and like rebrand, right? It just all was great. And the end scene on the porch is just unbelievable. So there's a couple of things that I want to mention. It's funny because, you know, we spent our episode earlier this week on Lanterns talking about a flashback episode and like what makes a good flashback episode. And so like thinking about, you know, this is an origin story for a character several seasons into their existence on the show. Thinking about that tension between what's going on in the modern day versus what's going on in the flashback. And it's like more of a sexual romantic tension versus like propulsive action tension that I was talking about. Spike to me is the blueprint of a character on an arc. What you're talking about in terms of like when we talk about a Sawyer or a Jamie Lannister or something like that, like Spike, who, to your point, all those guys are on a slow crawl and an occasional backslide. Spike more than anyone else is just like one toe in front of another very, very slowly making us wait, for that crawl towards something. Or is he ever going to get there? We don't know. And I just think it's like excruciating and exquisite. Spike is an unreliable narrator. So you've got this, that tension inside of this flashback in terms of like when he says, what can I say, baby? I've always been bad. And then you cut to him as this like foppish poet, you know, William, the bloody awful poetry. Like, it's just incredible. And then, yeah, all the, all the things that have made him, where he got the name Spike, where he got the scar on his face, a real Indiana Jones with a whip sort of moment for him. And the fact that he's been walking around in this sort of like, this thing that he, souvenir of killing a Slayer, that it's, that Slayer's name is Nikki Woods. Like he's wearing her coat and has been since the moment we met him. And so that shocking moment, I don't know if it's like, occurs to you the second you see her, but when he starts pulling that coat off of her and you're like, holy shit. Yeah. He has been wearing a dead Slayer's coat this whole time. It's an incredible TV moment. Really, really great. I thought the entire subway sequence, in part for what the email that you read outlined, like the, the, the breaking of the wall, the way that Spike is talking across time to Buffy and to us and, and the substance of what he is saying. Yeah. That was one of just my favorite monologues in the show to date. I mean, it's incredible and very rich text thematically to parse. But the idea that for Spike, he's like, cause there are trophies, but it's all, he's wearing a skin, right? He's, and, and it's in, in part because he wants to say, look how big and bad I am. I took down my second Slayer, but also that he's a character who kind of wants to cloak himself in the thing that he says he's better than her fears because he has a draw to it. And that's so, that's so much of what he's saying to Buffy in that stretch about death is like, the thing that you think you're avoiding and seeking to fend off or thwart is the thing that on some level you crave. And so Spike is a character who is constantly interrogating something about nature, his own or someone else's, but always lying to himself until you glimpse the depth of the truth. Yeah. Is perfect. And like, you know, the performance is so wonderful. His face is just so expressive and like a moment, you know, elsewhere, but a moment like when he has taken Buffy to the vamp den, because he wants to, he's fallen in love with her. He's hot for her. He wants to fuck her and he can't wait to like. Narc on Riley. Narc on Riley. But the look on his face when he sees her walk out and sees how broken she is by this and how devastated. And he's like, I did that to her. Like I made her feel that way. And for a second, his face just collapses and crumbles. And, you know, so he comes to the Summer's house at the end with the fucking shotgun. Yeah. Talking a big game, ready to show how tough he is. I've got my mannequin back home and we've done some fun role play, but I'm going to draw the line. Here, you can't hurt me anymore. And all it takes is one look at how shattered she is for all of that to melt away. Marcius has this way of like, it's, it's incredible. He has this way of, I'm sorry. You're having like a religious transcendent experience. Why? It occurred to me this last time I rewatched it where in that scene, when he sees her on the porch and it's not, it's not one of the, it's not the moment we have clips. So I, I'll, I feel fine describing it. But he's looking at her with this. I'm an, I've come to kill you face and it softens. And so it's like, Marcius can do this thing, this like thing where he like devamps his own face without the special effect. And it's just sort of like spike drops and, and William comes out and that's just an insane thing that he can do. It's so good. Okay. Let's go back to the beginning. This incredible piece of lore, which is a spike. - Poetry. - Just unbelievable. can we watch this clip please my heart expands tis grown a bulge in it inspired by your beauty effulgent effulgent um it's grown a bulge in it but a bulge I like can't hear the word effulgent without thinking of this it's like it's perfect but grown a bulge in it I mean oh my god and shout out I mean shout out Spike's flashback wig it's pretty it's pretty phenomenal really good okay and then the idea of the idea of the death of the slayer is is something this season is obviously like incredibly I mean the series is interested in thinking about Kendra thinking about Faith thinking about these young women and their and their expiration dates and all this sort of stuff like that but thinking about this and and how for Spike okay thinking about the way that Spike was made when you see the moment that Drusilla first sees him in the Angel episode so like he he sort of he's humiliated Cecily's been like you're beneath me you know like blah blah which will be echoed in what Buffy says but Buffy like he doesn't tell Buffy this story I know yeah so Buffy just says it but okay but he's he's you know he's upset he's dashed out into the street and he bumps into Darla Angel and Drusilla but you don't get to see Angel and Darla yet you can you know Liam's flashback wig when you see it but like you know that's them walking the other way yeah in the Angel episode Drusilla's like feeling a little bit like a third wheel or whatever and she's like she's like you know maybe I'll find myself like someone like wonderful and dashing and handsome blah blah and then he comes bumbling past and Darla's like or you can just turn the first idiot you see you know and then she goes and finds him in the alleyway and so we from Spike's perspective like this moment where Drusilla finds him and she can read his thoughts and so you know she's saying everything that he needs to hear and he is and she like grabs his dick and so he is like extremely like do you want it turned on so this like muddying of sex and violence and love and how that from the beginning for him has been like a completely confusing mess and so we get this post boxer rebellion shout out the special effects and the costume and all this sort of stuff in this episode but the post boxer rebellion slayage and the Spike and Drusilla sexy encounter that we get here can we watch this clip please I never hear them say the blood of a slayer is a powerful aphrodisiac I never hear them say Hannah, have a taste. This is like, this is like unbelievable. You know, look, could have just licked the finger, but we got the full suck. And it's a vampire show, so we should always get the full suck. We should. Very powerful, very important. Always be sucking. That is, I believe, Drusilla's motto. I also love, you know, to your point about these various wounds being how he has fashioned his persona. I also love thinking about when Spike sort of froze his look because a lot of times you meet vampires on this show and they are just sort of like locked in. So in this very episode, we meet the guy who gets the best of Buffy in the graveyard is this sort of like hair metal 80s vamp, you know. And from the very beginning when Buffy's like, that guy's a vampire because of his like, he's got disco clothes on. Like, this is something we've always like thought about in terms of vampires is like, when is their look? And not all, you know, obviously like Angel has made himself over. I love when he's like making fun of Spike's change in accent when, of course, Angel dropped his accent, et cetera, et cetera. Frankly, how dare he? But so Spike's, you know, Billy Idol sort of like late 70s look is his look. But I don't have a good answer for it. But I just like this idea of like he decided to press pause right then. Yeah. And it wasn't what he looked like. Like when he was made, he's bleached his hair. Does he have to constantly bleach his vampire hair? I don't know the answer to that. Or did he just bleach it once and that was it? And you can bleach it no more. I mean, I would have guessed the opposite. Like, it's got to do a touch up every day. Because, you know, think of the healing factor. Sure. Yeah. Those follicles are just repairing themselves. I told you that Marsters is like, had like scabs on his scalp from like how often they bleached his hair. Poor guy. Oh my God. Spike. But yeah. But like, I don't know. I'll be curious if any of our listeners have any thoughts about Spike's look freezing there. Like the last time he killed a Slayer. Yeah. Or like, was that him feeling the height of his. I mean, it's an incredible look. He looks amazing. He really does. Shout out the Julie Antlers of the Chaos Demon, which was promised to us in Lover's Walk when Spike is talking about Drew leaving him. I was in tears. I was laughing so hard when we panned to that. That cutaway, yeah. Incredible moment. The revelation side of that episode that Drusilla's like, from so early on, you're obsessed with Buffy. You can smell her on you. You know? Yeah. Oh man. And you know, Spike's revelation is so recent. But if you then go back and watch from Lover's Walk through season four. Right. And thinking about it in that context of like, if Drusilla is right, which she is like, you know, all of his fascination with her. From when? When? From? From when they're joining forces in season two on. Like, you know, when did this happen? Yeah. Yeah. Well, especially because Spike is a character who just perseverates and can't stop thinking about the things that people have said to him or done to him. So like, the idea that every single moment of encounter, he's thinking back to what Drusilla said to him. Like, kind of undoubtedly fascinating. I mean, I think that what aspects. I think that most of something that Spike says or hears kind of continue unabated and what, like, which aspects maybe flip at some point. Like, also in this episode, you know, in the early, the love confession and the poetry sequence. The, you know, I know I'm a bad poet, but I'm a good man. And then the idea that so much of our time with Spike has been defined by him saying out loud. I'm bad, baby. I'm bad, baby. You know? It's like, there's this, there's a, because both of those things are present there. There's like this need. The thing that has not changed is the need to say out loud. This is what I am. This is who I am. This is how I am. But he flipped it. Yeah. Because he had to? Because he felt like that unlocked something about him? Because he was so vulnerable when he was his, like, you know, spongy little poet lover boy. The lover boy aspect of Spike, which has always been part of his character from the very moment we met him. Just a big wife guy. Yeah. When Drew walks in and he drops the vamp face and he just sort of, like, softens when he sees her. But also, like, if you think about one of the first times. I think it's the first time he sees her. That Spike goes to the bronze and Buffy is dancing and he's just sort of, like, stalking and watching her for the first time. And it's kind of like, was it actually then? Yeah. The same as Angel from the first time he saw her. Yeah. Was there something like. Helpfully here at a club instead of coming out of school. Yeah. Not as. Still have some notes for Angel on that one. Oh, so many. Okay. And then we need to talk about the cadence of the final flashback, which is, we cannot show you the whole thing. We can't show you the whole thing, obviously. But, like, it is shot like it's building to an orgasm. Yes. Just the rhythm of the language, a subway train, like, hurtling through tunnels and just sort of all of that. And then, of course, the, like, the eye contact as he is. And then talking about, you know, dancing as a metaphor for sex. Yes. Or, like, death as a metaphor for sex. Yes. Which it has always been. Or a metaphor for orgasm as it has always been. Building toward a real orgasm. Good day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Let's go ahead and watch this. Death is your art. You make it with your hands day after day. That final gasp. That look of peace. Part of you is desperate to know what's it like. Where does it lead you? I mean, listen. Just fucking compare that. Compare that. Uh-huh. To. It's like all the tension just left my body. Oh, really? I had that on the schedule for later on. For Riley. Yeah. That final gasp. I mean, God. I have to believe, just because I know that there are musical nerds in the writer's room at Buffy, that when he says that final gasp, that he does that repetitive that. I have to think that's a reference to Rent. Oh. There's a lyric. That drip of hurt. That pint of shame goes away as it just plays the game. That sort of, like, lyrical use of language. But, yeah, I just, I mean, the way the lights go out and he's, like, flipped and, you know, Nikki was, like, on top of him, had the jump on him and then he flips and he's just on top of her and then he just, like, cuts up to, you know, like, the whole thing had been cut where, like, they're fighting in the present day and he's fighting Nikki and sort of, like, blows exchange or cut together or the twirling of the pool cue and the twirling of the bit of the subway pole, like, all of that stuff together. But then, yeah, when he just, like, looks up at her from the past into the present is, like, just a stunner of a TV moment. It's so good. And on the what is this all a euphemism or a stand in for and that, like, idea of connection and sex and pleasure and release more broadly, but then specifically the idea of them, part of you is desperate to know what's it. Like, where does it lead you? You know? Oh, my God. Powerful. This is the this is this is the part I clipped for our greatest speeches and I just, like, couldn't leave it out. Like, I felt bad including it, but I just had to because it's just so support fully support you fully. Or maybe I didn't know. I think I used something else for speeches. What did I use this for? I can't remember. Who knows? Great. Enemies to lovers. Maybe. And then let's go ahead and just see Spike and Buffy together on the back porch of the summer's craftsman. Like, you can kind of only barely hear it, but genuinely astounding and kind of sacrilegious. They use the Buffy and Angel. Uh, love theme there, which if I'm if I'm Angel, if I'm David Boreanaz, I'm like, get my love out of your mouth. But that's like that's astounding work. But yeah, it's a it's an incredible moment. And like so much of Riley's boring story this season is about how like Buffy won't let him in. And like, yes, this is circumstantial. He just happens to show up when she is crying and vulnerable and upset on on the back porch here. And he. And he will then throw it in Riley's face after he's caught sweater sniffing in Buffy's room. And then not caught, but also panty swiping. Spike! Where he's just like, oh, she said that you didn't know. I knew since last night. There's a thing in the second half of the season that we won't spoil, but I was texting you like, don't do it, Spike. Don't do it, Spike. And you're like, well, he's got to do it. He's definitely going to do it. Then you kind of change your mind on it. I did. We're fucking we're sick. I did. I did share those texts with Jenny and Kristen. They were fans. Oh, my God. I got. So my pal, Jenny and Kristen, who I mentioned, obviously, every time we talk about this, who hosts the Buffering podcast, we did a live show years ago, I think before I started working here for Fool for Love. And it was in San Francisco. And we definitely made fun of Angel's accent. But my favorite thing that happened is that Jenny did an example of what it looks like when Spike, like, hops over that barrel and slips. And it was in slow-mo, which was in every promo for the, you know, and is in both the Darla episode and this episode. It's just, like, so bad and cheesy, but also great at the same time. It worked. So, like, Jenny on the stage, like, did an example of it. And Kristen took it and slowed it down and put it, like, put up a slow-mo version of her doing it. But the whole gang is there. And Spike's like, did you guys walk alongside in slow-mo? I don't think we did the full. We really should have supported her there. Sounds like an opportunity to revisit this. You're right. You know? You're right. You're right. I'm sad I wasn't there in the audience. That must have been a magical evening. Incredible episode. What a wonderful experience it was to watch this. On the porch scene, sometimes the simplest moment is the most effective and powerful, right? The writing in the show, the prose, the stylistic choices, it can be kind of so gobsmacking and so gorgeous. Spike sees Buffy there, and he just says, is there something I can do? That's it. Is there something I can do? And there's a gentle, genuine. Genuine desire to know. Not a, like, Riley, I need you to need me aspect of it, though obviously that's there kind of for everyone. But, like, is there something I can do? Because I care about you and I don't want you to be sad, even though I came here with a shotgun. He's so good at yearning. It's truly unfair. All right. Anything else you want to say about this episode? I mean, it was just absolutely wonderful. I'll be also curious to see where it finishes on my episode power ranking. High. Definitely high. Ten, probably, no matter what. No question. Yeah. No question. It's just, like, every time I rewatch it, I'm just, like, really stunned by the work it does and how important it is for, you know, what they, it becomes increasingly clear, especially in the back half of the season, like, how enamored the writers are with Spike. And we've talked about this before, just sort of, like, if you, I love Spike so much. I was completely under the thrall of this character and the writing for him and stuff like that. But there is no doubt that it slightly topples the balance of the show, like, how much the writers were into Spike. Sure. If you want to talk about, like, hey, where's our core scoobies or, like, where, you know, where's Giles or all this stuff like that, like, Spike is taking up a lot of oxygen in the show. And, like, I loved it as I was 19 when I watched this. But, like, can you imagine being 19 and watching this, 19 at college and watching this? It's just, it's a lot. It's a lot. All right. Let's do our superlatives. Carlos. Delightful. That's the, yeah, that's the guitar I heard earlier. So good. All right. Favorite line. Oh, my God. Holly Rubin. I always have such a hard time with the categories because there are so many contenders for each. So, I have a couple. I have a couple. I have a couple runners-up that I'll hit after you make your pick. My, I think my winner, oh, God, it's hard. We're in the first category and I'm already, like, my 10 favorite number one picks are, I do think it's what we just talked about. Death is your art. You make it with your hands. Day after day, that final gasp, that look of peace, part of you is desperate to know what's it like. I think that's my pick. Mike is also from Fool for Love. Yeah. And it's one you referenced. And we just keep coming, but you can kill a hundred, a thousand, a thousand thousand, and the army is a hell besides, and all we need is for one of us, just one, sooner or later, to have the thing we're all hoping for. And that would be what? One good day. The way he says a one good day, forever, just sort of, like, drilled into my brain. It's so, so, so good. Yeah. Couple other contenders. And as always, I feel weirdly, like, even though a favorite line, I'm like, I don't think a favorite line is our first category, I end up slightly compromising this category because a lot of the things that could have been picks for this get picked in other categories. Yeah, like funniest moment, or emotional moment, or, you know, yeah, or any of them, all the spike ones. I did like, I really was struck by a couple other lines. So, I gotta say, not since Go Fish have I had so many picks from a perplexing episode. I have, like, shocking Dracula representation. And across my category set, I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with me? But, I did really like on the favorite line from. I love Go Fish. I'll still support it. I, like, remember, like, 80% of those categories, I had a nominee from Go Fish. It's crazy. Yeah. You will have eternity to discover yourself. Dracula to Buffy, you will have eternity to discover yourself. I was just like, fight me. Fight me. Fight me. I mean, it was incredibly powerful. Spike to Angel, once again, in Full for Love. Don't you ever get a chance. Don't you ever get tired of fights. You know you're gonna win. I loved that. That was one that actually pulled me out of the show in a good way, where I was, like, kind of just thinking about the way people live their lives and, like, what choices they make and why they do the things they do and, like, how much of it is about accomplishing something you know you can accomplish versus, like, challenging and testing yourself. I really liked that quite a bit. This could have been funniest, I guess, but Glory to Dragon, episode eight. Ah, Dark and King. Temptations always overwritten really killed me. That was a fun little wink there. That was great. And then for you, I had to toss out episode 10, Buffy to Joyce. Come on, wigs are fun. Wig watch. What a time to be you. Joyce rejecting the wig life, but opting, really rocking the scarf in many episodes to come. Yep. A lot of good scarf looks from Joyce. I guess I will add, yeah, you could put this anywhere in the Spike category, in funniest moment or whatever. But Spike, I just saw you taste your own nose blood. You know what? I'm too grossed out to hear anything you have to say. Go home. And he goes, it's blood. It's what I do. That was great. All right. So good. All right. Oh, my God. Best villain of the week. It's Dracula. It is. The first text. I don't. It is. But honestly, there aren't a lot of, like, great villain of the week. I kind of broke the rules on this. I'm going to give it to Harmony. Oh, okay. though it's like kind of okay well if harmony's eligible then sure that would be harmony should The one episode where she's like, I'm the big bad of this season and I'm her nemesis is so good. Really, really, really funny. I, on the Dracula front, first text I believe that I sent about the season was to you and Carlos where I just said Dracula can get it. Like, this is just very powerful from the jump. It was weird. I was confused when I saw that this was going to be the episode, but I kind of liked the way it actually unfolded inside of the episode. So the Xander stuff was hysterical. I have that coming in some other categories. Very, very funny. One of the best Xander episodes ever, honestly. Incredible. The Dracula episode. Joyce just like admitting that she let him in because she wanted to fuck him. Incredible. The whole Buffy seduction, Dracula seduction of Buffy. Really, really good. There are a lot of great lines there. You know, I've yearned for you for a creature whose darkness rivals my own. You have been tasted. It was very good. Jesus. I also got a kick out of, do you know why you cannot resist? Because you're famous. It's wonderful. Wonderful. I'm not hungry. No, the craving goes deeper than that. You think you know what you are, what's to come. You haven't even begun. Which is from Restless. Woo! We love a callback. Sure do. All right. Best fit, I will say my answer is from Buffy versus Dracula. There we go. So three for three on Dracula appearing in the category so far. Can we continue? Can we keep it up? Probably. She brings back the red leather pants, black tank top look from season three, which is her iconic look. And she also will bring it again later in the season. It's more of like a, into the woods, it's more of like a brown leather pant. But then she also wears like pink leather pants inside of this episode. So like the double leather pants, it just is always good. Buffy wears a lot of leather this season. Leather trenches, leather pants. And this is her best hair season by far. Gorgeous. Gorgeous. As you pointed out to me, a look that Lestat just steals. Absolutely. Stole. Entirely. Steals. I'm going with a spiked subway. Yeah. Subway fit. I mean. The clothes pins. Incredible. The jeans. The bleached spiky hair. The light wash jeans. The boots. The belt. The eyeliner. It's just incredible. And, you know, we already talked about it, but runner up, Glory's red dress and red heels and the fact that her pursuit of Buffy is just is thwarted by a heel, a high heel snapping. Great stuff. Also quite like. Then she like stamps the building down. This is incredible. I liked Glory on like one of those like, you know, a bed in the, did you hear my shoulder crack? I did. It's not great. It's not ideal. Do you think a bed in the round would fit it, fix it? It's possible. Yeah. Maybe I should consider it and give it a try. So a bed in the round from one of these like kind of sex hotels sort of. And she's just luxuriating in like a kind of burgundy plush, velour, bathrobe thing and surrounded by shoes. Yeah. Incredible. Incredible. Worst fit. Dear God, what were we wearing? Here's my first clip. Come to me. You know, I really think the thrall has gone out of our relationship, but I want to thank you for opening up my eyes a little. What is this? It's like. My main issue with that episode is in the early 2000s, we had a problem. Four for four on Dracula so far. It was the business casualification of going out clothes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. Just like a lot of collared shirts and, you know, black slacks. And so like the, the, the vest dress shirt combo on Dracula, I think looks so dorky that it kind of ruins the episode for me in that way. Yeah. It is. It's really funny, especially because like Spike's open red dress shirt, which is part of his like most enduring look or whatever. 10 out of 10 no notes. But he keeps the, the, the, the collared shirts open. So it looks like cool and casual. Dracula, I think, looks like a dork in that outfit. And like when he has the cloak on, it's kind of okay. But once it's just the vest and the like really, really early 2000s, like kind of big, very crisp collar on the collared shirt. Starched collar. I just think he looks terrible. So you did not find yourself saying, as Buffy did, you think you could just waft in here with your music video wind and your hypno-eyes? No? You're like, get out of here. Well, I did like how much they were using the, the Gary Oldman, Bram Stoker, Dracula, like, here comes the mist to like, fuck you sort of moment. Incredible. Yeah. Okay. Four for four for Dracula. Will we go five for five? I think that's my last Dracula. That might be it. My worst fit, dear God, what were we wearing is, so I have one that's kind of, of the moment and just one that feels less about the moment in time and more about the context of the scene. So in, once again, episode seven, when the great, like, we're calling them Tito's, not Ruffles, but the Willow, Xander, and Anya are patrolling with Riley. That's another moment, another part of Fool for Love that's so good, which is like, sometimes they make the Scoobies deeply dumb for comedy and I'm not mad about it. So funny. They're loudly munching on the chips and Riley's like, guys, I'm like trying to, the stealth. What does, what does this mean? That was so funny. So funny. But then Willow is wearing what I can only, so there's kind of like a flora fauna pant, a like magenta, but with some kind of polka dot accent color, chunky sweater. And then what I can only describe as a Paddington hat. Yeah. It's a real Paddington hat. Just a lot of mixed patterns for Willow. She goes like all in on the mixed patterns this season. It's a lot. Brutal. Um, here's my other pick. Yeah. Riley in episode four is playing pickup hoops in sweaty tank top grade and jeans. Mark Lucas was, I believe like all state basketball. You can tell he's good. Yeah. Yeah. Now I have seen as recently as mere days ago, our beloved David Jacoby play basketball in this exact outfit. So I know it's a thing that's done, but everyone was like, you're wearing jeans. Riley. Riley, treat yourself to a pair of breathable gym shorts, my guy. Come on. Oh, this next category is a treasure trove. All right. Anya's most hilariously blunt and or horny moment. I want to give you the honors because I'm hoping you picked what I'm hoping you picked. But you have a clip and I have a clip and they're not the same. We know they're not the same. I think that's what Carlos indicated. So you go first. Alone time always translates into get Don out of the house so we could have loud, obnoxious sex. Oh, does that mean we can't? A tremendous pick. Not what I was thinking slash hoping you would pick. I was really hoping you would pick from the end of episode three when she was like, can we have two so that I can have sex with both of them? That's one of my runners up. But I actually thought when I saw that you had a clip for this category. Oh, that I would pick that? Oh no, we, we, uh. All right. Let's play mine. You sold someone a Cole's amulet and a Sobeikian bloodstone. Yes, I believe I did. Are you stupid or something? Oh my God. She's perfect. Incredible. She's perfect. I love her. She is fucking the best. I, I, I, I find myself caring about her so deeply that it's just like almost unbearable. I love her so much. Great Anya. Stretch of episodes. Some other nominees from the blunt Anya category. Learning how to play Monopoly in episode two. I'm so pleased. Can I trade in the children for more cash? I believe it's the game of life. No, excuse me. The game of life. Yeah. Crap. Look at this. I'm burdened with a husband and several tiny pink children and more cash than I can reasonably manage. Incredible. Her, that, that there's a gif of her like hoping to trade the children for more money is like an all-time Anya gif. Just hysterical. Really good. And the kind of through line of her obsession with cash now that she's human is so funny. Very good. Uh, in episode three. I already mentioned the, uh, what, what are you doing? I have a dislocated shoulder response to the massage, which I loved. Um, but on the like potential apartment that my boyfriend saying he can't afford front, I just on the blunt Anya, it was almost like a little mean, but it was, it was, I don't really feel like taking a beautiful tour of things I can't have was so savage and cutting. Really liked it. Um, related to the clip you had the like, Giles sold it to her. Giles, the one Buffy showed up was so funny. Yeah. Um, couple other ones. Rapid fire here. Episode 10. They're arguing about the chicken feet at the magic box. Anya play nice, you know, fine. Take her side. Even though I'm the one who sleeps with you and feeds you and bathes you. She bathes you? Unbelievable. Um, I quite liked in the, in the, in the Tara family episode family when she's doing, Anya's doing a little bit of a, like a demon fact finding interrogation and she's like, some have been considered to be useful members of society. And then just the smile, the look of pride on her face. Delightful. Obviously, as you said, the, the right before rejoining the two Zanders, I can take the boys home and we can all have sex together. Just incredible. Like the look on Giles's face. The fact that she doesn't even like try to like have a, cause she's gearing up to it and you know why she wants it. Yes. And then she just says it. Says it out loud cause she's Anya. Cause she's Anya. And why wouldn't she? Similarly, when Riley shows up in episode 10 and he's like, "Do you guys mind clearing out?" And it's 'cause he's about to have very painful conversation with Buffy but Anya thinks that it's because they want to fuck in the training room and she says there's a funny thing with the vaulting horse that you can try oh my god Anya a perfect character is there anything in the magic box that Anya and Xander have not secreted on secreted is there anything the she's a perfect character Emma Caulfield like knowing exactly how to play her this season it's so funny when you go back and look at her in season three before like they had figured out what they wanted Anya to be and Emma you know so Emma's playing her as like darker and more earnest and the fact that she like really tumbles into like perfect comic relief with some like actual pathos also and and then also just so useful to the story to have Anya all of Anya's like ancestral demon knowledge which which yeah uh was there from the beginning in season three when she's like oh the mayor the ascension I know things you know like so this has always been true of Anya but she has all this information Spike has all this information and so it's not just Giles as like the only source of like all of this detailed information is really fun love it um all right most 2000 thing some interesting contenders I I felt I was a little Spike heavy so while I wanted to go with the OPCU blind idiot so good Dawson's Dawson's Kringle line which is hysterical I'm just gonna go with the fact that especially since they were still on the WB when he did it yeah great little organic cross for the cross can't you see she doesn't love you I'm just gonna go with the um taking out an ad in the paper in the newspaper for magic box the uh the yellow pages shop for all your occult needs it's like incredible yeah Tara being like great in a heart to weed kind of way exactly and then Glory like sees it yeah rips it out oh she's after them nope just needed to go do some shopping and that was where I found out I could I do remember when we'd be like the new yellow pages are here okay uh mine's a somewhat topical one possibly we're not gonna dwell on it I'll just say this Dawn says yeah mom I'm not going to Hogwarts and no one gets the joke and she says geez crack a book sometime I know it is 2000 yeah the she who must not be named he who must not be named of it all as you already mentioned definitely but yeah just the idea that like no one in the room would get a Harry Potter reference and not just because they're an alien in Rushville, Nebraska you know it's really interesting they only made like 22 of them all right baby it's your category horniest moment treasure trove as always I have a clip you want me Slayer? come and get me oh I'm coming I'm coming right now what I wrote in my notes was this is from episode six poor Harmony it's the Spikes latest yeah fighting and fucking Buffy sex fantasy and then we cut to him actually fucking Harmony brutal what I wrote in my notes was crotch to mouth yeah and I'm coming I'm coming right now is just all timer so so so good I'm yeah what do I have here? again a lot of crossover with other categories for sure um oh yeah uh man it's hard to pick a lot of Dracula contenders once again I'm just gonna say that if you're interested in another Dracula pick maybe it's um Spike what does he say in full full of hot little body that's a great one you put your hands on my hot little body oh my god incredible stuff I think that might be my pick uh on the Spike front in you know the end of episode four when we when he will wake and it is in fact a dream a sex dream a love confession dream but the fact that he just removes his shirt so that she can stake him which she definitely could do through the shirt but it's like let's get Spike shirtless that's a pretty horny moment great stuff there um possibly Giles talking about being seduced by his car yeah so did seduce me all red and shiny that's a great one uh you know we already saw the clip when we were talking about fool for love but how can we not mention in the horny category uh Spike seducing and fucking Drew after killing the Slayer with the finger suck I mean incredible stuff I do think I mean it's very grim but also like when Riley is getting sucked by that vampire and into you know into the woods where Buffy is watching him like and she's horrified but he's like having an actual orgasm he's versus he's in it any time we've ever seen him actually have sex it just seemed sexier very mechanical typically um you know what let's mention the Dracula contenders quickly I can feel your hunger Buffy letting Dracula bite her I can feel your hunger that's horny um Giles explaining how Dracula courts his prey she must want to be taken she must burn for him also me describing Giles obviously and then when Joyce as previously mentioned explains why she let Dracula in she says when you girls are older you'll understand which is incredibly horny it's great stuff all right speaking of the anti-horny it is Riley himself this is Riley's category last time we're doing a Riley category usually it's sad Riley's most exasperatingly dull category but we thought we would do something nice for him on his way out the door so I've assembled a super cut great of Riley's best moments in these 10 episodes genuinely is it just one thing? you're under the for all the dark prince people say they're recycling they're not recycling that was funny if you um if you studied Tagler and mythic rites and are a complete dork oh and how come Xander didn't laugh at least you weren't making time with the draggy babes like Giles here I was not making time I was just about to kill those loathsome creatures when Riley interrupted me really you were gonna nuzzle him to death? oh sorry oh man so a lot of genuine celebration of Riley and then also the moment he gets hit in the face with the football after saying the quarterback throws like a girl um look at you out here doing fucking spin doctor PR for Riley Finn the moment when he puts his leather jacket over a sleeping don is very sweet it is it is very sweet and surrounded by moments where he's like why didn't you tell me what's going on why don't you need me why don't you need me why don't you want me why don't you want me listen do I like him? no did I think I should give him a little present on the way out the door? you're so generous you're so generous of spirit okay so my fine one you are such a good person this is like when you gave your Dr. Doom mask that's what I was just thinking it's like when I gave my Dr. Doom mask incredible uh my fine one nice thing is I've already alluded to this but in episode three the Toph-Xander split episode when Riley and Buffy are in the car and Buffy's like would you prefer like would you like this? if the if Toph actually had hit me with the magic rod and Buffy and the Slayer were distinct entities and he said I have Buffy Buffy being the Slayer is part of who you are you keep thinking I don't get that there's no part of you I'm not in love with uh it's a lovely moment that was really nice and then he undercuts it constantly from there but that was that was very sweet um and like I said I did quite like the vamp the the the vamp junkie den stuff with Riley I thought that was just frankly like more interesting as a character beat than a lot of what we had seen from him when he meets that when he meets that vampire in the bar in Willie's yes and then consents to being bitten and then stakes her yeah similar to when Buffy like lets that one vampire who was sucking on Riley leave yeah and then Javelin stakes her she's running away yeah that was a shock boy um but let me tell you this like Riley I am not a character who's actually capable of controlling my worst impulses and so after writing in my notes fine one nice thing I then wrote drip groan yawn why and here are a few of those too laughing laughing Riley trying to be sexy episode four hey Buffy says hey I have the endurance of ten men let's make it women just for the imagery a real no hope no homo moment from Riley horrible stupid um I already I already read this quote but the episode ten it's like all the tension just left my body oh really because I had that scheduled for a little later on Riley trying to be sexy is so painful gross and he's a very handsome guy but it's just like my god um also painful Riley trying to be tough episode ten challenging Spike this is one of the worst lines and deliveries in a show that I would say is fabled for beautiful writing I left reasonable three exits back laughing horrible really bad uh but mostly of course it is just the crippling insecurity in a character we love to see yeah we do it's human it's relatable vulnerability we love it Riley trying to be tough The way that Riley's need to be kneaded by Buffy manifested and the kind of like I felt actually he's really in a lot of situations and scenes and arguments where he's saying like you just don't see it you just don't get it but then kind of like gaslighting and not actually able to acknowledge the truth um the the the final training room fight the end fight the departing ultimately because thankfully the chopper blades were loud enough to spare us the ongoing nature of this relationship all the things he says in this fight I wanted to get a Buffy I wanted to get you these girls they made me feel something Buffy they needed me when they bit me it was beyond passion they wanted to devour me all of me they made me feel like they had such a hunger for me I'm like there's a part of it where you're like I get it I get why you would want to feel that way it's I actually think this is a really good conversation this scene is amazing and then and then this part in particular it's about letting me in so you don't have to be on top of everything all the time and she says but I do that's what part of being the slayer is and that's what this is really about isn't it you can't handle the fact that I'm stronger than you and he says it's hard sometimes yeah but that's not it and then it's like isn't it I think it's mostly that I mean it wasn't a problem when he had his like super strength um yeah there's a great article in vulture or new york magazine about this episode written like they did a series years ago called like I can't stop thinking about and this woman wrote this wrote about this episode and how like the end of this relationship with riley how like it's a very relatable thing to be with someone who's just like it's just not there yeah they're just not right but everyone around you is telling you they're such a good guy this is like the xander speech in this like fuck you xander but like the xander speech in this episode where it's just sort of like uh he is the guy he is right and then what this person wrote new york magazine was like and then when they leave you because they always leave you because you've convinced yourself that like you're too neurotic or you're this that and the other thing or it's you're the problem if everyone is saying like they're so nice they're so good and they're good and they leave you and then it's like and then she was like the reason I love this episode is like it should always be this way like not long drawn out whatever but just sort of like chopper blades no contact with civilians like that's it over incredible um yeah I really loved that that scene in the in the trailer but like buffy standing up first off I felt kind of undone by the xander buffy and then the run and the run yeah but what buffy says to riley and the way she challenges and pushes back in the scene I loved and she's like well that's like this is all this is it yeah and again from riley I do understand you would feel inadequate you would but he's just such a drag I'm glad he's gone sorry when giles is like hey we made you this practice room and riley like tackles her and he's like want to fight want to fight like blah blah and it's like crazy it's not about you my guy crazy not about you all right speaking of giles giles is most dad moment so again not enough giles for my liking but I think just right from the jump so I guess it's another dracula pic even though it's not about dracula it's from that episode I think when he's telling willow that he needs to move back to england right he's like outgrown his usefulness to the group and then we build towards specifically at the end of the episode buffy going to him and saying I can't do it without you I need your help I need you to be my watcher again and just the way that his eyes like brighten that spark is rekindled I loved so great in that episode every time willow's like oh and giles we couldn't have done it without him he's like willow chill um great the opening of family which is buffy telling giles about dawn yeah my other contender um it's also just like really beautifully shot like unusually shot the camera is very low it's very dark and very intimate yes and just very much like that like these two together yeah it's so important to the show and important to us I I love that and especially it's the fact that it is a conversation where giles is like what about your dad hank yeah no spain right but also like they make a decision together to not tell the rest of the scoobies so there's something we've tracked this across the seasons like when is the character making a mistake by not telling somebody else something but the fact that it is this like inside of it all there is a trust and the nature of this relationship because of the the wisdom and the comfort and like parental presence from giles there that was really really lovely I loved that um some real dad uh like kind of goofy dad energy from giles in episode three when he's miming a more fearsome and potent version of how he used the uh oof dar fertility dot that was really funny I quite liked that um I enjoyed an episode for him the way he was just like real dad energy praising xander's carpentry skills that was really cute and then of course you texted me and you were like how did you not text me about this buffy walks into magic box yeah giles is standing there wizards pointing wizards at and no words yeah buffy just looks at him no words pass witheringly I will say and then he just his face falls he sticks it off sad classic dad moment great stuff there loved it to to go back to the like what I thought you were going to say about giles and buffy in that moment at the beginning of family when they make a decision together yeah and it's sort of something we've been tracking throughout it's just sort of like when are the subgroups inside the groups and this line that I always think about love from the oka factor last season uh when willow says besides when when is there any us two you two are the two who are the two I'm the other one you know what I mean like all the times inside of this found family and even inside of the like don joyce buffy when when buffy's like you guys have a book club yeah like what the fuck and and and buffy's jealousy of the fact that don gets to be a kid yes and I think that that's one of the best bits of writing in terms of dawn of just like I want to like be cuddled by my mom and just like be a kid and I never got to be I had to be the slayer you know what I mean and so like her resentment yeah of of dawn for that is really really good I love that oh man laughably bad digital effect we brought this one back we actually gave it a breather on season four because season four wasn't terrible but there's some I would say maybe the worst oh ever ever tell me wow quite a bar to clear let's be honest I mean let's bring back buffy versus dracula and say that the cgi storm that shows up at the beginning of the season is just like a bad way to start the season it's very very bad yeah but in episode eight when buffy hops on the back of a digital and it's like so it's a it's a cgi snake that looks terrible yes and then they do a cgi digital double of buffy hopping on the back of the snake and so it's just like one of the worst looking things you've ever seen I always think about that because it's like it's like it's like a I also thought I like I like this the snake when he's a guy in a suit yeah I actually think it's really fun that the the close often the closer shots of the snake look good the scales look good there's a glimmer in the eye but um in that in the same the sneaky wakey spawn of so back the motion where we switch to a digital animation so fleet after the encounter with dawn the kind of like slithering out yeah it's unbelievable anything from a distance or involving motion that's the pick as well yeah um dawn she sure is here huh um like I said I actually like dawn more in this stretch of episodes than I than I remember liking her and also like and you and I had talked about this the other day uh watching this knowing that Michelle Trachtenberg is gone way too soon is just like really hard now it's like three actors on the show so watching any giles or xander or dawn scene is a lot harder than it used to be upsetting um so here's in celebration of dawn she speaks for all of us here riley my sister's boyfriend is so into her they're always kissing and groping I bet they've had sex hey kid I'm not a kid uh dawn hating riley relatable content love it for us relatable content oh boy what do I want to pick here I guess I liked as a little bit of like breadcrumb kerneling throughout this stretch of episodes the comments strange comments that somebody in altered mental state makes about dawn so we have episode two the man on the street outside of the magic box telling her she doesn't belong we have episode nine hospital guy previously brain sucked by glory what is that thing there's no data there's no pictures on this one what is the data there's no one in there by the way and then this guy's family just lets him like wander through the woods brutal tough uh queller queller fodder rock well our episode so many questions and then of course episode nine joyce you know most most painfully of all you sing get away from me you're nothing you're a shadow I don't know who you are how you got here and then dawn is saying to buffy like what why do people think you're a shadow you're a shadow you're a shadow you're a keep saying these things to me and then joyce will have this clarity right this is like in the lucid moment and say to buffy like uh I know that what I glimpsed there for a minute was was real I liked the way that's really good yeah um yeah I will also add from family in the confrontation with tara's terrible dad uh you want her mr mcclay come and claim her no she's like you want her you can go ahead and take her you just gotta go through me and mr mcclay says what and she and buffy says you heard me you want to take tara out of here against her will you gotta come through me and don says and me and my axe right don says and me and mr mcclay says is this a joke I'm not gonna be threatened by two little girls and Dawn says you don't want to mess with us and Buffy says she's a hair puller just like the the summer sisters just sort of like yes being the first two to step up for Tara is like it's really sweet and then of course dad Giles comes in just kind of like curves around yeah it's not just two little girls not just two little girls I did like the kind of evolution of the Buffy-Dawn sisterly bickering like a lot of the the diary through line in episode two and Buffy you know the real like heat with which she says things like after Dawn has let Harmony in right and Buffy's like I was just a kid when I met my first vampire but somehow I managed to remember the rules or she has to be protected and coddled from the big bad wolf but you know what we're doing nothing but turning her into a little idiot Tuff who's going to get us all killed and then the way that that builds toward you know like what we've already talked about the episode five the reveal the big reveal about the key some of the things that we hear in there you know we knew the Slayer would protect human now human and helpless please she's an innocent and this she needs you she's not my sister she doesn't know that which then makes Joyce's plea to Buffy in episode nine you know she does belong to us though when Buffy responds to that with yes she does like it feels so earned yeah I really really liked that the Joyce stuff is really good this stretch here yeah um okay Giles' most daddy moment this is where I'm gonna read our last email from a listener Chris who wrote in in the delay between the season four season five Buffy coverage he says is Mallory too distraught from Riley leaving to continue with the rewatch or did you find that the scene of Giles being nuzzled to death by the Dracky Babes and the premiere is so hot that you needed an extended break to collect yourselves thanks for asking let's see my clip oh that's that's tickles oh oh tickles tickles I mean again as I noted already not as much fodder for this category as I would like and have become frankly accustomed to but that was that was really good yeah I loved that that's gotta be it and like the moment when Riley's pulling him out and Giles is like oh my shoe I better go back and get it no more chick fit for you very good there's no other option for me no I will say though that I just want to note that Giles looked insane insanely hot in episode four the aforementioned carpentry sequence with Xander he's got like a cranberry Henley you know the over shirt pulled up so we're flashing forearm I mean we just got that smattering of chest hair wonderful but we're flashing forearm he's got a watch on he's wearing jeans the glasses and he's got the like dust mask on for construction for sawing wood planks of wood and you know planks of wood were on my mind just while watching that very manly looked great yeah when Willow cries we cry not our usual wealth of options here do you have anything I do but I only had one contender for this which felt to me quite notable as a you know a telling thing about the stretch of episodes so this is I'm going with from episode six from family Willow has learned more about Tara's family about Tara's history Tara's insecurity and fear and concern about being a demon because of this lie that her controlling father and brother have told her and so there are like a couple moments you know we get the the go you know Tara look at me I trusted you more than anyone in my life was all that just a lie no do you want to leave like the fear that Willow has that Tara doesn't want to be with her and then you know we've talked about the Buffy moment and the Scooby moment of standing up to defend Tara and embrace Tara and just the kind of gratitude on Willow's face seeing that the people she loves the most have made room for someone she cares about so deeply I thought was really touching and when they're dancing at the bronze at the end of that episode which I watched with my dad for some reason I don't know why I was home it was really I looked up the date I was like why was I at home the first week of November but I definitely watched that with my dad and I definitely remember that as a moment of like are these ladies going to kiss and my dad's here and it was just like a time when that wasn't done on television or whatever and like they wanted obviously like the writers wanted to and they're like I guess we'll do levitating dancing instead the float we'll just have them cuddle in bed cuddle in bed a lot but they'll never kiss it's fine I really loved I look at what you are and it makes me proud it makes me love you more that was really sweet on that so my only answer can be that confrontation in family when Tara's terrible dad not the last we'll hear of him in my categories but like Tara's terrible dad says it's not your decision and she goes I know that and I love that because she's like it's not mine it's not yours it's Tara's you know I just really love that moment really good all right so Spike's hottest funniest or most Spike moment yes it's a three-parter he deserves it what do you got for me I want you to go first and take us through all of the meaningful things here to you um I mean it's like it's just all for love but I but I will say and I already texted you about this but I think out for a walk bitch and then seeing all of the cigarettes like so knowing that he was like standing out there yearning slash stalking that's all he does the year it's the year it's the thin line between yearning and stalking that he is constantly just straddling um waiting under Buffy's window as she fucks another dude is real tough look for her guy Spike's stuff not great um and then oh man ah okay once again that confrontation with family really is a good episode that confrontation with Tara's dad when Giles says and you're not just dealing with two little girls Xander says you're dealing with all of us and then Spike says except me Xander says except Spike and Spike says I don't care what happens so good it's just that's the most Spike like that's the most Spike yeah incredible so um but you know that's my main stuff I could talk about all day I mean this could be 50-60 yeah um I have a couple clips both to just because it was hard not to pick two clips for one category and as gifts to you and to all the bad babies um we'll start with hottest Carlos play my first clip please Spike I want you I think I love you God I love you so much oh God please no I mean incredibly good I mean I hope that I hope that everyone who's just listening and not watching enjoyed all the all the smackage the lip smackage that came with that clip I know I did yep I know I did uh I quite I put this under hottest because I personally find Spike kind of dunking on Riley hot um but from episodes 8 and 10 couple lines face it white bread Buffy's got a type and you're not it she likes this dangerous rough occasionally Buffy in the forehead region not that she doesn't like you but sorry Charlie you're just not dark enough and then you're not the long haul guy and you know it remind me did you um did you watch Veronica Mars I can't remember if you did no never seen it okay so there's like a very similar like there's this character Duncan Cain who's like a very Riley character and then there's Logan Eccles who's like a very Spike character and um Lily Cain played by a man a cyphered who is Duncan Cain who is the boring guy's sister okay she says clue in donut to him she calls him donut from Beyond the Grave I think or maybe in a flashback anyway clue in donut and so when Riley shows up in the first episode and he like brings all those donuts I'm just sort of like clue in donut like he's such a donut like he just is like this this archetype no you people TV writers have tried and I guess the success is Steve Rogers Chris Evans is Steve Rogers you know like people say they're recycling they're not recycling is like such a Steve Rogers like thing to say so like and they call him Steve Rogers in this in this stretch you know so like yes but mostly it does not work this character anything else you know what does work though is Spike saying to him you know it or else you wouldn't be getting suck jobs from two big vampire trolls the girl needs some monster in her man yeah and that's not in your nature the girl needs some monster in her man and that's not in your nature it's really hot um and then I quite liked the sometimes I envy you so much it chokes me and sometimes I think I got the better deal to be that close to her and not have her to be all alone even when you're holding her feeling her feeling her beneath you surrounding you the scent no you got the better deal great stuff alright on to funniest I have another clip we've already talked about it but we deserve I think to see it five words or less out for a walk bitch it's just instantly gonna be in the you text it to people for the rest of your life it's perfect it's just unbelievable um god knows you need some satisfaction in life besides shagging cats in cardboard in episode five iconic most spike I mean there are always a million contenders let's see um I do like when uh when he says uh to Riley uh you think I'm all hot for your honey right and Riley's like cause you're hot cause you are and he goes well yeah well yeah oh man hot for your honey yeah incredible um once again Dracula is here I this is a most this felt so spiky like the fact that he's like bugger owes me 11 pounds for one thing you know him and know him we're old rivals I bet he got famous incredible um to harmony a couple of the spike harmony I mean he's it's he's he's so mean I it's but all puffed up and mighty thinking you're the new big bad incredible stuff uh oh you know what I this was a real spike moment the like kind of sexy oh my god this is hypnotic listening to him say this and then he trips and falls into an open grave I will in episode four I will know your blood slayer I will make your neck my chalice and drink deep ow yeah that is a very I mean like it's very when he shows up in season four and he's like the big bad is back in town then he gets tased like he's forever falling into graves and doing other things yeah wonderful um I on the harbor front yeah I'm really excited for you to someday if you want to re-watch Buffy and then like oh I will well like oh I will just watch harmony as she's used in high school which is she's just like barely there like a Cordelia light sort of thing and then just like the excellent way that you know so like you watch it again you'll just be like similarly with like like with Jonathan where you just sort of like you're like oh harmony oh Jonathan here they are just randomly in the background of a shot and they will be really fun recurring characters on this show did we do it did we do all the spike stuff yeah well I mean no but yeah yes we did our best funniest moment I have a clip I suppose you wanted me to see all these toys um I just want to shout out the buffering podcast uh for their uh relentless celebration of what they call the crystal dildo um in in Tara's room when Mr. McClay says these toys and he's holding sure is the girthiest crystal you ever did see uh what were Tara and Willow up to with the with that crystal practicing magic um in a way that Amy Adams would not approve of um yeah so I just wanted to celebrate the crystal dildo incredible stuff I love it I support it also a bunch of Xander stuff here is runners up but I want to hear what you say um let's see what I actually want to pick is my winner here um hmm boy we've talked about a lot of these I the it's hard not to just keep picking spike stuff the hardest I laughed all season was it the hardest I laughed all season I don't know so many of the Anya things were probably the actual pick for that I think that the the flashback in fool for love to the 98 uh uh Drusilla spike why won't you push her away but I did pet I did it for you and you keep punishing me carrying all the creatures like this and then we panned the truly antlers of the chaos yeah I was just in in stitches that was so funny uh I'm gonna give Allison hand again a funniest moment she rarely gets them uh not that she isn't really funny hey wait till you have an evil Xander says hey wait till you have an evil twin see how you handle it and she's like the way she goes like I handled it fine I thought it was really good um in the queller episode when Riley says oh that might be toxic don't touch it Xander says oh yeah touching it was my first impulse luckily I've moved on to my second which involves dry heaving and running like hell and then Xander on the space front Xander saying look how teeny mercury is compared to like Saturn whereas in contrast the cars are the same name and then Giles says Xander's please we have to work we have work to do that's incredible Xander says am I right Giles and Giles says I'm almost certain you're not but to be fair I wasn't listening that killed me that was great uh and oh man uh Buffy a Buffy when Buffy says well if this guy wants to fight with weapons I've got a cover from A to Z from Axe to the other Axe that was incredible oh my god I have a Xander up once again from the episode oh yeah yeah yeah this killed me yeah we only got it we were it was a I would have if if we had returned to this 10 times in the episode I would have been thrilled like any of that's enough to fight the dark master and they all look at him and he goes Bader and then he does it very shortly thereafter you're drawing a lot of crazy conclusions about the unholy prince Bader um so good from Buffy versus Dracula yeah I have damn it you know what I'm sick of this crap I'm sick of being the guy who eats insects and gets the funny syphilis as of this moment it's over I'm finished being everyone's butt monkey funny syphilis killed yeah funny syphilis it's a it's an iconic Xander moment incredible stuff I I just was laughing a lot in that episode actually Riley saying you're not just saying that because of those dark penetrating eyes of his are you and Buffy says no uh his eyes were they were there was no penetration that made me laugh good stuff oh oh on the harmony front yeah harmony and spike so episode two um and episode four actually so episode two slayer at last we meet Buffy's like we've met harmony just killed me and then spike in harmony in episode four when he's like I must have missed the memo she says there was a spike she's so funny when in the when the doctor is like pretending to take spike's chip out and he's like no smoking and she's like where does it sit and then there's a sign she's like oh my god I didn't see the sign I'm so sorry I'm the best all right most emotional moment it's actually really tough in the first half of this season to do this when there's so much to come I know the back half I know I know I know um yeah I have here in the queller episode wow no the queller's upstairs on Joyce's ceiling um Dawn is pretending she can't hear her mom ranting yeah Buffy's downstairs doing the dishes in the dark and she's crying I thought that was okay really upsetting so when Tony Stark is doing the dishes in Endgame he's like distraction I need a like kind of like regular life everyday thing and I remember like not outright mocking him this came back to me really powerfully watching this episode but I was like yeah Tony he's like he's got like robots to do the dish oh yeah yeah floods of messages from people about this really like I only now could understand it's like sometimes you do the dishes when you're when you're going through some things so that was that was a nice uh a nice yeah Buffy's listening to like mariachi music and doing the dishes and crying beautiful I I was like can she not hear the screams I agree with you I agree with you but it is beautiful the color is so funny it's like so preposterous but I don't know just like her doing the dishes by herself in the dark in the kitchen especially like when we've seen like several episodes in the season of like all three summers women in that kitchen like the cereal or um you know all that's finishing the breakfast yeah absolutely it's a great one um let's see talked about like Tara feeling on the outside uh hmm we've obviously talked about spike patting Buffy on the back okay I will go with so episode eight this was uh I found this very affecting um but Buffy believing hoping needing to believe wanting to believe that there is a magical solution for Joyce's what is happening to Joyce and Riley saying Buffy people get sick and Giles saying the mystical and the medical aren't meant to mix Buffy and then the just the toll and the pressure in the hospital sequence when Riley comes uh to find her and he says you know you look pretty beat up and she says minimal damage of the fighting kind of thing and then she's like it's all the other kind and it just was so so sad it's okay just let it out I'm right here I can't not now they need me if I start now I won't be able to stop and just you know then it makes those moments where you do see like at the end of full for love the okay Joyce has told her like I have to go in for observation for evaluation and Buffy has to let it out and of course later one of the things Riley won't be able to handle is the idea that like she did cry just not with him uh I I will say Riley sucks yeah and and they're you know there are ways in which Buffy did lean on him she's like can you take Don to school can you do this can you do that and he did it and all this sort of stuff like that if my partner was going through something terrible of course and they were like I did cry you just never saw it it would be devastating like what the fuck devastating be like why would you not show me what is going on in your life and let me help you and just like tell me what is and they're like because you're Captain Cardboard because you're a piece of white bread and I don't really care I will end with this yes you're a piece of white bread and I don't really care and fool for love when she says you're beneath me and throws the money at him and he's on the ground and he's crying yeah and he's gathering up the money very like Moulin Rouge thank you for curing me of my ridiculous obsession with love moment from Spike there means a lot to me personally really good you're beneath me um all right we did it just fantastic um what a show what a show back after the season even stronger so we'll be back next week with that there will be tears I think um hobbits and dragons and gmail.com if you have season five thoughts spike thoughts uh the buffy family thoughts um What's going on with Willow this season thoughts. If you know what Allison Hannigan was doing that she was not as involved this season, et cetera, et cetera. We will be back with Lanterns. Yes. Episode four. Yes. Our current plan is to kind of pre-tape that. So just on the email front, we probably won't get to your episode four reactions because we will have pre-taped it. It's Labor Day weekend. Sure is. How is that possible? How is it September? What happened there? I know. Someone was like, what are your big plans this weekend? I was like, what's happening this weekend? I hope it's September. What? Oh, it's Labor Day. Thank you to our Scooby gang who is here today. Carlos Gerboga with the incredible audio cues. Amazing. Our Juno Rongo-Powell who is navigating both football season and Buffy season, the two most important things that could be happening, I think. Scott Lee of the Lantern Corps himself. That's right. Jacob Cornett, our guy is here. Joe Mieden around on the social. Anything else? Bader. See you soon. Bye. Like, all I want. Right. You know what? we're going to stick with whatever's in the public domain. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. Plus a 25% bonus toward your daytime use every summer. Learn more at TXU.com, rep number 10004.