Bryan Rafanelli on Building Clients for Life

The wedding planners aren't going to want to hear this, but I don't understand how you can't have a diverse portfolio from a business point of view. The second is there's so much opportunity. Are you looking at everything as just a one-shot deal? You're going to sell that house once and you're never going to sell that house again. They're never going to move. Like no, they're going to have a birthday. The wife or husband is going to build an amazing product into a product launch. They're going to buy a football team and win a Super Bowl. Like there's so much opportunity. And so as a businessman, I want that. Like I want a full circle of life. I never want to worry about a season. This is The Wine and Dine Me Podcast. Forget the etiquette. No rules, just real talk. I'm so excited to welcome Brian Raffinelli to The Wine and Dine Me Podcast. Brian is the founder and chief creative officer of Raffinelli events, a globally recognized event planning and experiential design firm celebrating nearly 30 years in business. His team has produced some of the most high profile events in the world from deeply personal weddings and brand experiences to White House state dinners, major sporting events and nonprofit gala that have raised millions for meaningful causes. What I love about Brian's work is that it never feels like events for the sake of events. His approach is rooted in emotion, connection, precision and the belief that gatherings should make people feel something. He is built not only an extraordinary portfolio, but a lasting company culture, trusted relationships and a reputation for bringing both creativity and operational excellence to every room he touches. Welcome, Brian. I have lots of things I want to talk to you about, but I haven't had the privilege of experiencing one of your talks that engage or anything like that. You and I connected on a really cool, just organic human level at dinner in Savannah a couple weeks ago. Things that you've shared with me are talking points that you're known for and I just left that dinner feeling so motivated and inspired. So thank you for being with me. Thank you. I appreciate that. Very much. Let's talk about your business strategy because your mind always seems to be two steps ahead of the game. One of my questions that I had for you in Savannah was, how do you create a lifelong relationship with clients when you're planning their wedding and hypothetically that wedding only happens one time? Right. Well, look, I do it. I want to be clear about this. I do it authentically, but answering the question to you is that my mind is always going to the future. So I'm planning your wedding, but I'm probably mentioning your birthday party that will eventually happen. Or with the parents of the bride, I'll say, look what you did for your daughter. There's going to come a time for you to do something for yourself. And so it's always imagining that this relationship is not just going to happen in this moment that is going to continue and continue and continue. That's really just the way my mind thinks all the time. And when I'm with someone, especially someone I really connect to, right, that I'm like, okay, this is going to be cool. We're going to have a long journey together. Is it hard for them to initially wrap their heads around that? Not necessarily because I actually think, and if you ever met somebody for the first time at a dinner party and you're like, yep, these are my people and we're going to be friends. And there's something about them that's going to tell me that I'm going to pick up the phone or email them or think of them or send them a funny meme or whatever I'm going to do. To me, it's the same thing. And I guess listeners might be like, is that too personal? I don't know. Actually, I just think it's what I do. I do that with my family, my friends. So I work out with my clients. I don't really separate that because I want them to feel they can trust me, right? And that it feels safe and that this is going to be fun. Like those are all the things that I think we have to think about. Because isn't that what we all want? I mean, I think that's what we want. It sounds like you're fostering a real relationship. I feel like if you're just sticking to the rigid, professional relationship, that opportunity probably is lost. Yeah, sure. And now, look, I'm a businessman. So I am in this business to have a turn of profit and share that profit with my family and my friends and my colleagues and all the people who work with me. So I don't want to have anyone think that I'm not thinking that way. Because when those trains run on the two tracks, right, over your like, you're having a really interesting time, you're talking about the possibilities that the client can have. And then at the same time, you're really warming up to them and making an connection so that I'm probably going to say trust a lot in this conversation, but that we can trust each other. And another thing you mentioned during dinner was that you can't always rely on the host or hostess to make it known who has planned the event. That that is your responsibility as the planner. So how do you do this? And how do you, you know, I mean, of course, the first thing that pops to my mind is, you know, that dreaded wedding where you saw the wedding planner with the branded shirts and the plan. You know, so, you know, how do you have a client? Who literally, she signed the contract, she sat me down and she's like, okay, can I just, you know, do I have to put it in the contract? I don't want those clipboards. And I was like, what clipboards? He's like the clipboards that say Refinelli on the back of them. And I remember this swag company sent us clipboards with our logo and blazing on the back and they were horrible. And I don't know somehow they got in the hands of somebody on my team and they were carrying it around. And I'm like, oh my god. And so, on the other hand, I will be clear that like you do this magnificent thing. You put this beautiful product together for your client and then you rely on the universe to tell every, the 300 people in the room who planned this wedding. And it is very important. If you're at the four seasons hotel, everyone knows that the four seasons hotel did the food, right? The band got for bid, but sometimes they do it will be like, we're night shift, you know, so everyone knows their night shift. But how do they know? And then there are people sitting in that room that don't know what a planner is, right? So you can't rely on that. So I have all these, you know, we trained our teams to say, okay, every opportunity to touch a guest when they ask you a question, you go in full throttle. You walk them to the restroom. You ask them when you see them pull out their valet ticket, you ask them for the valet ticket. Why? Because it's going to help them along and they're going to ask who you are. There's no question about it. You walk somebody all the way to the restroom and you're laughing and you're talking about the wedding or whatever you're talking about, they're going to turn to you and say, and how are you related to the wedding? And you're going to tell them. And there's nothing wrong with that, right? Nothing wrong with it. Right. Absolutely. Again, that's that's connection that's making someone feel seen and taken care of. And so the foundation of that relationship starts from a place of care, which is pretty cool. And I do, I guess I want to be clear about that. I remember those experiences of doing that over and over again and then having the guests say, how are you connected? Are you friends with the bride or the groom? Right. And then my mind started to turn right in my business mind. I was like, wow, this is really important. And now they know, roughly, produce this and designed it. And now I have a staff of 75 people, how do I teach them to connect to guests? This is on the most basic level in many ways. And if you don't do it intuitively, then you have to teach it. Right. It's almost so basic. It's right under your nose. Right. And believe me, I know when we have this conversation, when I've had this conversation with those people, they'd like not up and down. They're like, well, that makes sense. Right. And it's not a pen. And it's not. It's not a charger. It's not a business card. It's not a business card, right? Absolutely. And so therefore, I like it feels good to me. Yeah. I like it. You also have a very interesting approach that you've spoken with about many times about how you approach a guest list, that every single event you have is an opportunity. So how do you approach these opportunities with every single event specific to the guest list? I begin with this idea of high touch guest services, understanding who's in the room. And what's helpful about that right is to say what kind of people are coming to the party tonight and what are their expectations. So if we look at that, then that is actually going to make for a more enjoyable party, a more successful party for my clients. Like, I will sit down. to how much my clients can go through the list and they will start talking to me about their friend who owns a tech company or their friend that they were in a sorority with. So you begin to understand the character of the room, which is really helpful. So then you're just like, okay, which ways is gonna go? How should we modulate the music or the timing? Like that, that makes sense to me. So now let's shift to business. You have the guest list, you understand everybody who's coming into the room. So if they're rough and early clients in the room, gold, if there are rough and early clients in the room that I hadn't seen in five years, they were client five years ago, gold. If I know that they've attended five rough and early events, at this season, amazing, right? So I get to connect with them. They're going to be our biggest cheerleader. They're going to talk about it. So they're going to introduce us to people at the table. I will often go to my client and say, Mrs. Jones, I saw that Jerry and Susie Jones are coming, I would love to meet them. Oh, look, your client wants you to be successful. So they're like, of course, I'll introduce you. I'll go as far as saying, I just heard their daughter got engaged and they often will say, yes, they did. And I've been telling her she has to hire you. (laughing) So I don't leave any of that to chance. Mm-hmm. And when the chance happens, by the way, it does happen. Because I'm one of those guys who's like, if you plan down to the last second, you come up with all these plans, something else is going to present itself. That probably will be better. What about the VIP who's in the room? Do you play it cool? Or do you find an opportunity to introduce yourself? Because let me kind of rephrase, I've found myself in the position before, where I'm like, oh, it's a VIP, I want to treat them like a normal person pretend like I don't even know who they are, where the reality is they assume you know who they are. So what's your approach in that situation? My advice is for you to be yourself. Having said that, my advice is not for you to retreat. Do not retreat, because the minute you retreat, this is what happens with highly successful people, celebrities, billionaires, everyone treats them differently. When in fact they actually want to be treated the exact same way. So I'll tell you Jennifer Gardner's story. Jennifer Gardner, amazing actress, we're doing Matt and Lucy Damon's wedding, where at the house says they arrive first day, I'm running around helping Matt and Lucy, I'm helping people get beers and coffee and mimosas, whatever, and I turned to Jennifer Gardner and I said, hi, may I get you a coffee? And she turned to me and said, may I get you a coffee? (laughing) And I was like, ah, there it is, right? It was like I was overserving her, right? I was treating her super special. I probably was blushing, whatever, you know? And she turned it on me and was as gracious to me as I was to her and I was like, there it is, life lesson. Very cool, that's a great example. Let's talk about budgeting. How do you-- Money. I know, we can't have this conversation without talking about it. How do you educate new clients on the level of investment they should be prepared to make? Because everybody that comes in having this concept of I have a great budget, right? Without having had the-- And it is a significant amount of money, but what can it do in the actual arena of a wedding? So how do you have that conversation and educate them and get them in a place that makes them feel good? Well, first I would say we always talk about, and we call it the investment, what kind of investments do you want to make? I'm not a huge fan of the word budget, although eventually you have to use the word budget, right? I understand. Because it, you know, it has all those negative conversations. On the other hand, it's, what are you going to invest? And they'll laugh and be like, oh, it's like my daughter's an investment. I'm like, well, you said it, I didn't say it. But so what I'm trying to say here is, if you can talk about money early and often, whether you're talking, going through your contract very structurally, saying for instance, every time we meet, we will talk about where we are with the budget. Every time we meet, we will put it on the agenda. Now there are clients that will be like, please take that off. Like, we got this. We understand where it's going. But I feel like if we keep putting it forward, then that will give them the opportunity to start to ask the questions, right? Because I can preach all day long and say, how much I think this wedding is going to cost. I was listening to your podcast about the story of like the per person versus square footage and real estate. I think it's very good. But I, and I use per person a lot. But even that's a little confusing, right? It is. So I'll jump to where did you go to dinner last night? And if you went to the beautiful Belmont restaurant last night, and you had wine and you had all your friends, and it was $600 a person, that is going to begin to help you understand, right? What a per person means. Anyway, getting back to it is important to keep talking about what this investment looks like and going different ways. We'll do small, medium, large. We'll be like, okay, 300 people under a tent. I've been doing this for 30 years on a flat lawn in Nantucket. I can tell you what that's going to cost. I know what it costs to get everything over on the fairies. I like, so if I talk you through that, right? You're like, well, yeah, that's why that makes sense, Brian. That's why I hired you because you do this all the time. So I'm like, okay, this is what we did now. Let me give you another example. They spent a million dollars. They spent 500,000. You must be wondering what the difference is. So I explain what the difference is. And go to things that people relate to. Photography. It's a beauty. Right? I love Corbin Gurking. $100,000. Amazing. You know, I love Matt Tudon, $20,000. Like, I, you know, he begins to tell the story. And that's not to, you know, it's to put it on the right in front of you. Right? Put it on the plate. And then keep going. Because if I think you should hire Corbin because you're aesthetic and when you love what you see, then I'm going to tell you to hire Corbin. It's not about the money anymore. Mm-hmm. You also mentioned not being afraid to tell the bill pair what needs to be done to make things right. So, so, okay, we're past the initial budget conversation. We're in the final stretch where maybe let's just say it's the bride who is making the decisions, the father is the bill pair and maybe she's made a decision that might compromise overall integrity of an event. I believe when we were together, you were referencing a specific wedding where they decided not to carpet when carpet was really needed. Right. So, how do you approach a bill pair, the decision maker, when you're faced with a decision like that, where the client is making a wrong decision, but you really have to tell them, no, this is the right decision for the overall integrity of the bill. Well, let's start from the very beginning. In the beginning, I will talk about that. Well, I say, I do have your permission. So now we've agreed. You feel good about this amount of money that you're going to spend. But do I have your permission to bring the other forward to bring something that I believe you should have? Because right now, we've faced this in an experience. It feels right. It's honest. It's clear. Things come up, right? Things change. So, I might see something new or I might have met your budget number knowing that the walls are glass and the ceiling is marble and the floor is marble and it's too loud and really you should put a carpet in here. I might have even already told you to do the carpet and you're like, absolutely not. Now, on the other side of this, if we've done our jar of bill, if you built a lot of trust, if you keep talking about the investment, the value of the choices, but they still feel like they're doing something wrong, you have to bring it forward. And when I ask for permission in the beginning, of course, my clients, of course, Brian, yes, please tell me. I mean, 99.9% of the time, you can talk to me about it. If I talk to me about it, don't talk to my daughter about it. Yeah. So, that's another one of those these sort of fall into. There's a through line here of how you talk to celebrities or successful people or like, you have to bring it to the table, but you have to, I would suggest that you do it in a way that a person can hear it doesn't sound threatening. It doesn't sound like you're like, you must do this. Right. No, no, no, no. That's not in my world that does not fly. But if we have built trust, then they will consider it. Right. They're always. And that's all they can do. You always make them have the ultimate say. Yeah. Sure. And you like, if you should have air conditioning, you know, I, you know, I have the story of the client who called me a week before and said a hurricane's coming through in the day after a hurricane. It's always beautiful weather cut the air conditioning. I'm like, that's a terrible idea. It's going to be humid. No, it's not Brian. I know better. Okay. Fine. We canceled the air conditioning. And it was so hot. I can't even get to tell you how hot it is. I just did her daughter's second wedding. And she loved telling the story to everyone where she's like, Brian insisted. I do this, I cut it and everybody was sweating. Right? So I was, It was a lesson for me. It was like, you can't let them do that. You can't let them. I do this line now where I will pay for this myself. This is how much I believe in it. Now, I'm taking a little bit of a risk there. 'Cause they might turn around and say, "Great, Brian, pay for it, but that doesn't happen." I felt like, okay, this guy's serious. Like, he's serious. - What are your thoughts about diversifying your clientele type? I know we've been talking about weddings, but you do a significant amount of corporate nonprofit, what are your thoughts on having a diversified portfolio of clientele? - I, I'm probably the wedding planner, so I'm gonna want to hear this. But I don't understand how you can't have a diverse portfolio from a business point of view. Like, you know, are you looking at everything as just a one-shot deal? You're gonna sell that house once and you're never going to sell that house again. They're never gonna move. Like, no, like, they're going to have a birthday. The wife or husband is gonna build them an amazing product into a product launch. They're gonna buy a football team and win a Super Bowl. Like, there's so much opportunity. And so, as a businessman, I want that. Like, I want a full circle life. I never want to worry about a season, right? Now, that means I'm working 12 months a year, of course. But that's what I built. So, to me, it's always there. It's always right in front of you. And so, why would you push it off to someone else? I don't get it. - I always wondered, and I mean, I will admit, I'm one of those planners who has been operating just the selling the house the one time. Maybe they have a sister who comes along, you know? And that's why I'm just so fascinated by your approach. It's honestly, it's brilliant. But you were mentioning how with some of the corporate events, you know, starting your year, you have this annual event that's guaranteed. Whereas, unlike me, every January, I'm like, "Oh my God, you know." - Okay, so then business you calling you hunt for your food, right? That's what you're doing. So, I'm not hunting for my food. I know at least 30 annual events are going to come back in every category. But I know in private, they're going to come back or some are solstice party or holiday parties, or love party on Valentine's, they are going to come back. If we steward that client, right, it will come back and come back. In fact, I'll go to those clients and say, maybe you should go to every other year. And you know why I do that? 'Cause I don't want them to get exhausted by the party. So I'm like, how about every other year? They're like, "Oh, I never thought of that." Okay, that's one category. And nonprofit has to race on every single year. A corporation has to throw their holiday party every year. The Kansas City Chiefs or the Eagles would love to win a Super Bowl every year. But that doesn't always happen. But it's your there. You're there for them and you're constantly. So, I would say, I would maybe recommend starting small, but if you knew on January 1st that you said, "Okay, I have a $5 million business and I have a million.5 in sales right now, I think you wake up a little bit. - Yeah, yeah. I think also, and the part of what I do on this podcast is I expose my own vulnerabilities because I know I'm not the only one. - Sure. - Going through it. And so one limiting thought process that I've had is these clients might assume I can't afford to pay Reagan what I've paid her for this wedding. There's no way I could afford her for my birthday party. - Okay. (laughing) Yes, but you're comparing apples and oranges, right? A wedding has found a birthday party. Although I've thrown plenty of birthday parties that I've figured it out. - I'm sure you are. - That's a big mistake of mine. But they're not the same. And so you just have to educate them on what that looks like. And you have to decide too, right? So on a wedding, you get a fee of $25,000 and you're only getting a fee of $5,000 on a birthday party. You have to decide, do I want to go through this? - Right. - Because especially if you plan their wedding, they will have the same expectations that the birthday party goes the same way. - Yeah. - Now it's our job, you and me and everybody else, to just show them what a really glorious birthday party looks like. - Mm-hmm. - And how it is planned, just like you did it the first time. I was just on the phone with a client that I've been doing business with her for 25 years. I would call her a friend. But she just called me and said, I wanna do a housewarming, but I don't wanna do anything crazy and I know you do that other housewarming party down the road and that's insane. And I'm like, okay, but why are you calling? Like if you want to hire a caterer, I'll refer a caterer to you because they can do beautiful work and they will do everything. But if you want something a little bit different, let me show it to you. And so I have like, - I have a wedding. - That's what I wanted, right? - And that's what we did. And honestly, she fooled me. We were on the call and we were talking with flowers coming out of the piano. And flowers going down her island in her kitchen and she has the most glorious entertaining house. And her whole lawn with all these beautiful lights on it. And she's like, I'll take it all. (laughing) - Even I was like, Lynn, what are you doing? She's like, - That's so funny. - You sold it. I love it. That's what I want. That's why I called. I'm like, okay. - She can't resist. - Right. - That's great. What is your three-ass-hole rule? (laughing) - All right, now you're gonna get me in trouble. (laughing) - Come out and say the E third. - Okay, so I have this piece of art in the other room. In my office, that says, I believe in good people. So this is where I come from. Like I want to work for good people. And that takes work because not everyone is good. Right, so from my company, especially, I wanna make sure that 99.9% of the people that we work for are really good people. Now, occasionally, an asshole slips in, right? And I like to say that asshole's money is the same color. I actually think people who don't treat people well, disrespect people, they actually teach you lessons. You can tell I've practiced this. But it's true. One of my producers and my production managers, like I can't believe she said that to me. I'm like, relax. Like, she was upset. You don't know what she's going through. And not everybody is nice. You can't assume that. And in this case, we're working for somebody who's not so nice. Now, I will not build a company out of that. Like I promised myself that from the beginning, I sat next to a planner out of London who told me that she only works for assholes. And that's when the light went off, right? Of like, we have these choices. Like, who we work for, how we are willing to be treated. But the world is the world. Like there aren't all good people. And so, but I will go and say, OK, nope, we can't take that job because we already have three assholes. And they're going to really give us a run for our money this year. So we can't take a fourth. It's not said. Right. What that does to your team? Mentally, the abuse. I've seen people who are ready to quit their job at the end of the project. But I also have seen, at the end of that project, being treated that way, they appreciate everything around them, the other projects. So much more. They really do. And in fact, I think they work harder because they had the experience to kind of outsmart the asshole, which can happen. We just did a wedding and the father of the bride like hugged my producer and thanked her. And he's like, I don't think anybody. OK. That was asshole number three for 2026. I don't think anybody. But she was pretty proud, right? Right. That's victory. Yeah. You hug her, right? He was grateful. She turned him. Mm. That's good. That's good. Let's shift our conversation to the industry. OK. The events industry, disrupting the industry. You recently spoke about this. Everything looks the same. So what would you like to see change? So what I want you to think about here is that we are in the innovation business. We are clients love to see things they've never seen before. I mean, those are the people I work for. I think those people that most of us work for. So if all we're doing is changing the size of the flower arrangements, or the size of the table, or family style versus played it, we've all done that. I mean, I'm going to sound like an old man here. But only 20 years ago, I was building square tables that I would have liked to apply would in my garage, right? Because you could not rent square tables. The China crystal and silver that you can rent now is glorious. Think about it. Before we used to have them have them made for a client. So that's all great. But done a really good job in design. Congratulations. So having said that, what are the other things? How we greet people, how we touch people, how much time we spend on whether it's toast or does the band actually have to be loud at every single wedding? No. So when I talk about disruption, it's really going to every single category and deciding, what could you change that actually is going to change the guest's perspective? And they're going to have a different experience. I really believe in this moment that is our obligation. And it's our greatest currency. Greatest currency. Now you're going out of the client who likes to do everything exactly the same way every single time, so you're not going to change them. But you might be surprised. You might be surprised when you go in and say something should happen every 20 minutes or instead of doing a place card table like this, do it like that. Like whatever it may be, I really think it's such an opportunity. And I think it's incredibly refreshing for any of us who've been doing this for a while. I'm not to mimic the past. Right. And I like how you're talking about things that are not just visual. Visual, right? It's just it and when I gave the presentation, I was like, I wanted to make sure people understood that. Like we, we are the masters at outsmarting things visually. You know, I see that all the time, but it is the other. It's the other. And that's true luxury, right? In my mind, that's what happens when you go to a hotel, right? And you suddenly are treated differently. You go your room and there's not a book bottle of champagne and a bucket, right? Like everyone does that. Everyone has a handwritten note from the GM. Every like what is the thing that is actually going to take you into a different place? I love telling the story. I was just in Naveva and Puntamita. And they sent me one of those text messages. It was a four seasons. It's their smallest property. You know, it sleeps 32 people and that magnificent. Everyone should look it up. But what I loved about it, is they sent me a text message and said, Oh, Mr. Affanelli, do you have any special requests? And I text back. I know I was in a very snarky mood. And I was like, do you have a hotel dog? And they're like, they text back. And I think it was a language barrier, but they were like, was the name of your dog? We'll set up everything for your dog. And I'm like, no, no, no, I don't have a dog. I was wondering if you had a hotel dog. So it ended there. I pulled up the head of sales, the standing there with the general manager with the golden retriever and her Burmese fountain dog. It's the true story. And she had called her boyfriend who lived an hour away to bring the dogs to greet me when I got to the hotel. Wow. Wow. That's amazing. I know that's kind of a crazy, not everyone can do that, but but can maybe we can, you know, that that idea of doing something that is completely unexpected. So I turned it on them. We took photos of the dog. It was really fun. And then they're like, going to take the dogs away. And I was like, what are you doing? You brought the dogs all the way here just to greet me. I'm like, no, can they stay? So they stayed for the rest of the day. And that's thinking outside of the box. Well, sure. Simple thing. And that definitely disrupting the hotel experience, right? Because you could get a caught up in all the other thing. So what about the other dad? It's guests who don't like dogs. Yadda, yadda, yadda. I get it all there. We have to break through that. And that's an extreme. You know, the other extreme is just to say, how can I disrupt the experience that the guest is having that they when they go to a wedding, they always expect X to have them. A really refreshing observation that I am going to make is that you and it sounds like a no brainer, but this is not at all what our industry is focused on now. But you consistently bring it back to the guests to the guest experience, whereas because of social media right now, I think so many people are more concerned about their appearance. And you wow, that they can post online. So I really admire and appreciate that about you. And so this leads to my next question, which is so many people in our industry feel the pressure of staying relevant among this growing sea of professionals. Not only is the sea of professionals becoming larger, but it seems like everybody because of the access to really wonderful rentals and production companies like everyone is able to produce at this really high level. And obviously that's again, thinking about the visual of representation of our work. But what's your take on this fear or need to stay relevant? Well, my take is this. You've got to test that, right? You have to decide. Now, you can test it certainly in social media, right on your Instagram, insights and data and likes and comments. And like that's what that's all set up for. But I would go back to this sort of old-fashioned way. Are people talking about you? And what are they actually saying? I used to say to say to social media that the day that we start to give million dollar projects on Instagram, I will invest more into that. Well, of course those days happened. And I'm very grateful for that. But quite honestly, my business is really happening in the old-fashioned way. It's like we do a good job. Somebody refers us and then we close that project. But that's what happens. And that is 85% of my business. So I have to focus on that. I have to focus on those things that help us stand out. So where we started, right, if I walk you to the restroom and you ask me, what am I doing at this wedding? And I say, on the event producer, that begins to tell an narrative that creates a connection. Like these connections out there of like if I take the right shot or if we hire the right photographer and the right stylist, we will get into vogue, right? That can be, you know, a really hard. That's one in a million. And is that worth, is that where you should be putting your time in? Or is it actually stewarding your clients, stewarding your company within your community, going to the right events, meeting the people you want to me? Like, isn't that really what you should be doing? I really believe that. I'll go way on on the limit and say, yes, the answer is yes. Well, it's clearly working. Well, you know, that's, yeah, the proof is definitely in the pudding. Yeah. And I realize I have a very big company, but think about that. I have a lot of my own to feed. And so I have to be constantly making sure that we are getting referred. We are getting referred. And I want to do great work when people say, what do you want to, what's sex, Brian? I'm like, I want more of this. Yeah, more extraordinary clients. Like fewer assholes, more extraordinary clients, amazing challenges that that, you know, I do think when you talk about staying relevant, you have to define that for yourself. What does that mean? That's crucial. The definition of what is relevant. And if you're to a branch with friends or girlfriends and they bring up another company and they start talking about that other company, I love this test. I love to say, what was it about that night? Because if they'll say, I went to a wedding and it was so amazing. And I'll be like, what made it amazing? Yeah. I mean, what do describe it to me? And you know what happens? Nine-time-hour-tem, they can't. Or it's the flowers or they have the Jonas Brothers. That's amazing. That's not relevant to you and how you run, it's not a reflection of something you're not doing right. Right. It's the experience that they had at that moment. Those are, I don't know if this makes any sense to you, your listeners. But to me, I used to carry the weight of that. Like that other company, everyone's talking about that other company. And I should actually just be doing the good work. And again, stewarding clients for the future and knowing that what I have is a value. And I want to make sure everybody understands that. How long do you think it was until you shifted your mindset and owned how you feel right now? Yesterday, no. To me, about 15 years. Okay. Yeah, 15 years. And then things really started to line up. You know, I hit some really special projects in my career in the beginning and that 15 years. And you know, the lessons that are learned from doing amazing projects with amazing people is the next morning you get up and you have to go back to work. Right. It's not all of a sudden your whole life changes. And you know, I have a book in me called The Other Side of Success. And one of those things is that is that you need to feel good about that exciting thing that's happening to you in the moment. And then realize the next day that it could be harder. Yeah. Absolutely. How do you decide you mentioned in that last answer about attending the right events? And how do you decide which events, especially industry events, are worth attending? That's a good one. My reason for attending industry events. So let's start there. You have to decide, why am I doing this? Right. Am I doing it to because I want to build resources? I want to build relationships. Is that why I'm doing it? That's different from giving back. Right. So on my side of this life, I am investing in those experiences for two reasons. One is definitely because I feel like I have something to say. I have something to offer and I want to offer that. And in offering that, then I get something back. I see your reaction. Right. Sitting next to you at dinner and talking the talk, I could see your reaction of the things that you're like, Oh, wow, I never thought of that. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Right. That those are little tests in life to me professionally. I really, really like that. So I'm not going to be like, oh, I, you know, look what I did. And I'm fantastic. No. I'm really getting out there to be like, I did it. I did this. I did it this way. And this is success I had. Does anyone else relate to that? Or is anyone want to try that? So I don't know if that answers your question, but if you're going to these different events, whether it's engaged or kindred or RCP or whatever it is, I think you have to go in and decide why you're doing it. Right. If you're going to have a good time and party and wear 20 costumes and whatever, God bless you. But if you're going to the other, I think that that will really help you out. Mm hmm. Brian, this has been a great conversation. And we are at the end of our conversation. I know. I always like to ask my guests if they wanted to leave listeners with just one thing or one takeaway. What would that be for you? I believe the takeaway really should be that if you're listening to this podcast, first of all, congratulations. One is that put the work in, put the work in, you know, look at everything that you're doing, how you're doing it. Give yourself some credit in the one column and then in the other column, say to yourself, maybe if I did one thing different, what would it be? If I was going to disrupt one thing I'm doing in my business right now, what would it be? Because you're going to learn something from that. I assure you. And look, that's what I do every single day. I've been doing this for 30 years, but every single event that I do, I learn something else. Right. Brilliant. Brian, thank you so much. Thank you. Joining me. It's been a real treat. I appreciate this.