Bryan Kest - "Autobiography of an American Yogi"

All right, here we are, breath happening, heart beating. The sound of my voice, meeting the drum of your ear. This is J. Brown Yoga Talks podcast. My name is J. Brown. If this happens to be your first time ever listening to this show, let me welcome you. Everyone else, what's up? Thank you to anyone and everyone who is choosing to listen. How's it going? What's your Suka level like? And what I mean by that is, how is full and receptive are you in the experience of this moment? And no judgements because there's certainly a lot going on there makes the experience of life feel not all that easeful. And often we don't have a lot of good models for what it even is to be receptive and receiving. Lots of protections baked into our beings from the time we're born. And I was sitting here thinking about how difficult things are these days. And I know I've been talking about that and sharing some about that here on the show, but not wanting to lead with all of the stuff that I have no sayover. And it made me think of, well, what is the stuff that I have sayover? And Steer Suka is basically it. That's what yoga seems to me to be teaching above all else is that as a human being, you have an amount of agency in your life and the efforts that you're making and the behaviors and the attitudes that we hold are reflective of that. And that's reflecting either us having some sensitivity and awareness and facility with that agency that we are born with or not, or just being trapped in a bunch of unconscious patterning that either was imposed upon us or we've imposed upon ourselves. So seeing if I can find the balance between making the effort to do all the stuff I need to do, but be receptive and easeful equally as much or to the appropriate degree that I feel okay and things seem to be going in the direction that they need to go. And if you've been around for the last few weeks, you've heard me talking about really questioning that what is the right direction to be going in because the world has really turned upside down in the last few years. And over the last few weeks, there's been a bit of an ongoing theme, I would say, of reflecting on where we're at now and doing so by also looking back to the trajectory of yoga leading up to the pandemic and then what's happened over the last couple of years. And my talk today, I really think is a little bit of a finishing to that kind of series. I didn't really plan it out that way, just sort of happened that way, but my talk today with Brian Kest really brings it home in a lot of ways for me. I should add that original listeners, people who've been here since day one and you know who you are, have heard me mention this list that I made. When I started this show, I had a list of yoga teachers that I wanted to talk to. And Brian Kest was one of those people. And at this point, there are only two more people on that list that I've never been able to get. Lillia's fallen and Rodney Yee. And believe me, I've tried. So if they happen to be listening or if anybody listening to this has a line in on either those two people, reach out, help me out. It would help me fulfill one of the primary missions of this show was to get that list of people. So in any case, I did check off one more of those names with my talk today with Brian. And it was really great to get to connect with him. He has a new book out called Autobiography of an American Yogi in which he basically does what I was just talking about. He reflects back on the trajectory of yoga and the role that he played in it, which in my mind is quite significant. If you are not familiar with Brian Kest, he coined the phrase power yoga. And we talk about that and what he meant by it when he originally started using that phrase and what it came to mean were not the same thing. So very interesting to get to hear from him directly on some of the things that happened some of the sign posts that mark some of the shifts and changes that have taken place and to also hear how he continues to hold it down to this day. So very happy to have had this chance to speak with him and to get to share it with you today. So quick before we get to that, if you are enjoying what you're getting from this show and you would like to support it and get access to the full length archives, which is quite extensive. I want to encourage you to become a podcast premium subscriber. This show is entirely listener supported. That's why we don't have to have ads for mattresses or supplements or CBD inserted by some corporations, AI tools. The reason we don't have to do that is because listeners choose to support it. For as little as $5 a month, you get access to the full length archives and you become a supporter. We are very grateful to everybody who is doing that and I want to encourage others to do the same. If you want to connect with me in ways outside of listening to this show, there's lots of opportunities for us to do that. I have an upcoming event in Austin, Texas, May 4th and 5th and I would very much love to see you there. Or I've got ongoing live classes online and discussion group. I've got a new on-demand video course that I'm very proud of. You can find all my stuff, podcast premium and the rest at jbrownyoga.com. Okay. I think that is good. We're going to leave it there. I will touch base with you on the other side, but let's go ahead and get into this. Let's listen to this conversation that I had with Brian Kest. Hey, Brian. I'm Jay. Nice to meet you. Hey, Jay. Good to meet you, brother. I really appreciate you taking up my invitation to giving me this time. Thank you. Oh, my pleasure, man. And just so there's no surprises, I am already recording. So please, let's consider ourselves having just begun if that's okay with you. Yeah, man. Anything you'd like. Well, it's fun for me to get this chance to talk to you. I think I mentioned to you in my email that I did reach out to try to get you on the show almost 10 years ago, back when I first started the show. And just to give us a little bit of context for a conversation today and to kind of clue you into where I'm coming from and talking with you back in 2015. When I started this show, I really had sort of two mission statements in mind. Like one of them was wanting to do some kind of oral history of how yoga came to the west and kind of went from living rooms and church basements to like these big, huge, you know, big money chain corporate sponsored investment banker backed thing. You know, like it went into the mainstream and I caught the wave. So I started practicing in Manhattan in the early 90s, like 92, 93. And I, so I'm like, maybe the generation after you. And I remember, it must have been, I don't know, 2005, 2006 reading an article about you in like a yoga business magazine and it was about your center. And you had like a, like what I thought of as kind of like a LA vibe and you were, you were kind of irreverent in a certain way, but very serious still. And it was a bit of a model for me. I was like, oh, see, that was sort of almost like a, you need like models to go off. I was like a career trajectory for yoga teachers that you kind of were exemplifying. So when I started the show in 2015, I had a list of people. And it wasn't that long. Well, listen, you were on it. I was like, I want to, I was one of the people I want to talk to, but I never got a chance to talk to you till now. It's almost 10 years later now, eight years or something, nine years. But it made sense as I was getting ready to talk to you that now's when I am talking to you because the whole world is so different now compared to when I first reached out. And I feel like now's maybe the right time. So that's a long winded introduction to just again say thanks for doing this. I guess to get us started, I noticed it said that you opened your center in Los Angeles. Did you grow up in Los Angeles? No, I grew up in Detroit, Michigan. I see. And so how did you end up from Detroit to Los Angeles, did your family move there? So it wasn't a irreverent LA vibe. It was irreverent East Coast vibe. I see. I see. That's probably still same kind of thing or again, it was, it was less formal, you know, than like going to India and being at the Oshram, you know, totally, totally, no, I totally get what you're saying. And I know what you're saying and I agree, I just, you know, I, I, I, most people are like, are you from the East Coast? Because you know, I think more of the East Coast was more, I think more edgy than LA. That's for sure. Although it doesn't really matter, you know, I'm going to agree with you there. I spent the first 18 years of my life in Los Angeles and then moved to New York and then never went back. And I always, and I remember I went back at one point. I lived in San Francisco for like six months and I'll never forget there was like an Indian woman and a coffee shop and she was saying, at least in New York, I knew where I stood with people. Like if people hated me, I knew she said, but here everybody smiles and I don't know what's in their hearts. Yeah. It's a different vibe about it. You know, it's, I didn't really have that around me, you know, because truth is, like attracts like, you know, you draw to you that of what you are. So I didn't deal with a lot of that, but there's no doubt, you know, LA definitely has that vibe. You know, New Yorkers, East Coast people, Detroiters, you know, Midwest is very much like the East Coast. It's a little bit more gentle, but still straightforward where East Coast, it's raw and rough. But, um, you know, they'll just basically tell you like it is and it's, it's not like that. But, you know, having said that, you know, I mean, I much rather have the weather out here in the mountains and, and the liberal mentality that allowed yoga to flourish because it wasn't flourishing in New York or Detroit initially, you know, initially it was California and there's a reason for that, you know, it's like the bees hive, you know, things are created here. And, um, I guess I had to be here. I didn't really know it, but I was creating something and I guess this was the place that supported me the most because this is where I ended up, you know, I don't know if it's in New York, but in the back at every Detroit voice grain, like growing up, you know, you want to get in your car and drive out to California. You know, back then, you know, you grow up with California dreaming and the beach boys and you definitely want to come in and check it out. And when I got out here, I was like, I'm fucking never going back. See, it's, it's the grass greener. I was the other way. I grew up there and I was like, I got to get over to the new east coast. But I heard you, I heard you say that and I, you use these words, baby, it was some tongue and cheek, but you said that you were forced into yoga and veganism at age 15. Nobody in my family was into yoga at all. How were you forced into yoga and veganism where your parents like in like guru, did they have a guru or what was the home life situation in Detroit? That would have forced you into yoga and veganism at 15. Well, when I was 13, my father moved to Maui. He left us and he moved to Maui, you know, you should read the book, man, because everything that you do. I don't have a coffee yet. I, you can go to God next day on Amazon. Oh, man. I'm sorry, man. You just looked at me, I didn't get a chance to read it, man. I normally would have, but in any case, you're giving us a preview now. You're giving us a preview. Yeah, yeah. I was going to tell you to order it because when you sent your email, you know, you were actually, you know, talking about what you had just talked about initially, you know, like, you know, the, the beginnings of yoga and, you know, I go into great detail in, in the book about the beginning, you know, like the beginning of our yoga, you know, when I came to LA, there was three yoga studios. When now there is a thousand and forty nine, you know, it was like her, or I should say not so much anymore, though. That's right. And things have changed. But I know it. Three COVID. Three COVID. There was a thousand forty nine and a, you know, there was the original Bichram studio, the original Irongar studio and the, and the first studio in, maybe in the country, but definitely in LA, the center for yoga, who was owned by Ganga White, who heads up the White Lotus Foundation still. Those were the only three studios in all of LA, you know, and so I got to, you know, I got to watch it grow from there. I watched the manager of the center for yoga where I taught, leave the center for yoga and open yoga works, which was the first kind of yoga factory. You know, kind of like you said, like the first studio where, you know, there was more of a business vibe. Well, I went there and took some classes in '94 on us. What was it? Can't remember the name of the street in Santa Monica, but I did take a couple classes at that. Montana Avenue. That's right. That's right. Did you? I was there. I was there. Oh, you were teaching there at that time. When did you teach there? I was there first, the stanga teacher. Wow. Because then eventually, Mati became an astanga person herself, right? Yes. He wasn't astanga then, but she did because she married, you know, another astanga person who came into the scene a little later named Chuck. Right. And Chuck Miller was an astanga person and Mati was an Iangar person. And Mati kind of brought Iang, you know, she changed things and brought like Iangar and astanga together. We called it astangar. Right. You know, because she focused on the alignment of Iangar, but she was doing the astanga sequences. Right. But that was the first, that, you know, and I mentioned it in the book too, is that, you know, every yoga studio that exists right now actually, you know, in a sense is an emulation of what Mati created, you know, she created the new yoga studio before that. It was, you know, there was a lounge with, you know, chair, you know, soft bean bags on the floor and incense burning. Right. And, you know, there was no business vibe at all. I mean, you had to pay for the class, but, you know, there might be a few yoga books and incense to buy, but that was it. And she, you know, she brought in the clothes and she brought in the videos and she brought in the, I mean, she created what every studio has now emulated. So, you know, in a sense, people could, you know, include her in their gratitude meditation. I think that's true. I think I've had someone on a student of hers. I never got a chance to speak with her before she passed, but I had someone come on to talk about her or someone who knew her quite well. So we did talk, and I've had a bunch of other people like Max Strom and Rod Striker and other folks who were around at that time to talk about this same time that you're referencing. I think you're right. I was in, in New York and I think Sharon and David and Jiva Mukti were doing a similar thing as she was and Chuck was at the same time in terms of like, hybriding and kind of like, drawing together different lineage traditions. But you're right. Yoga works certainly became the model for much of what happened afterwards. I guess I'm curious about how you specifically got into Ashtanga as like your main focus. What was your entrance into Ashtanga practice? Well, I just, you know, I don't know if it's fate or luck or whatever, but I just happened to be in the first Ashtanga class in the world outside of India, you know, when David Williams brought Ashtanga Yoga to the West. You know, he, he originally opened a class in Encinitas, California and, but then he disbanded that class. And that was the class also where you might know David Swenson, David Swenson started in that class and a couple old-school Ashtanga and Tim Miller. But David disbanded that class and he moved to Maui and he started, again, he restarted that class on Maui and that was the class that I ended up being in, you know, where my father, my father was a surgeon and he had, he had a really bad, bad, really a lot of back issues. And he did, and he did everything that alopathic medicine offered and nothing was helping. And someone said, you should try yoga, you know, and it just so happens that David Williams was bringing Patabhi Joyce to Maui. This is 1978. He was bringing Patabhi to Maui where we happened to be and and he, I can't remember, but I think he was like giving a class for cripples or something and my dad was basically a cripple. Like he could walk and talk, but he was in so much pain and my dad went to that class. And you know, he had, as you'll read in the book, you know, he had, you know, minimally speaking in epiphany and then he forced me. He was like, you know, then all of a sudden he became like, you know, there's a whole misinterpretation of how you should eat, you know, the vegan stuff and all that. We all became vegans and, I mean, I didn't want to, but he's like, you know, you got it. You all became born again yogis, huh? Exactly. We became vegans and we went to yoga class every day. And that was the first Estanga class in the world outside of India. And I was, I just was fortunate enough to be in it. It was an amazing beginning. It was a great vibe and it was a great scene and it was, you know, I, it didn't he didn't have to force me for long because there was a point where, you know, I started to notice how it was affecting me. And once I got that, then I never had to be forced again. It probably took about six months. And was that the initial introduction you got to Estanga, those classes in Hawaii? And I think I heard, I remember I think Danny Paradise was talking about those early classes in Hawaii. Yeah. You were there with us. Yes. And he, I remember him talking about how you really had to like commit. Like you weren't allowed to just like drop in. It wasn't like some yoga. Oh, no, it was. It was. You had to like commit and show up every day or you, you weren't allowed to come or something like it. Do you remember? Oh, yeah. David was tough. I mean, you had to pay, first of all, it was very expensive. Very expensive. Like more than, you know, it was as much or more than they're still there charging today for a monthly. And this is 45 years ago, very expensive. And then you had to pay up front. And if you missed one day, you couldn't come back and you couldn't get any of your money back. So they were very serious and, you know, and everybody there was serious though. So no one minded it. We were all committed. I mean, you know, I didn't mind. I mean, I hated it, but because I just didn't even want to be doing it initially. My dad was forcing me. You know, I mean, you bring a meat and potatoes, boy from Detroit and you force them to be a vegetarian and tell them to start stretching and, you know, I was jumping out of my fucking skin. But every all the adults, you know, I was the only kid. All the adults were committed. And so no one minded and yeah, it worked because you know what, it was so confrontational. And back then it was very aggressive too, you know, very lot of forcing the body into positions. And that was going to be my question. Was David teaching like, I know you actually practiced with Patavi Joy's later. Was he teaching in that kind of very traditional, hard-edged sort of way? Back then he was. He had an epiphany himself eventually, but back then he was. And so, you know, it was very confrontational. So, you know, the commitment was necessary because otherwise you probably just run. I saw people pay and run. You know, they were like, fuck the money I'm out of here. Yeah. Wow. Well, I guess it says here that you did eventually travel to Mysore in like 83. So that's some years later was that I imagine was there time in between there from the time you were exposed, you were kid before like yoga really became more your thing. Did you like rebel against it at some point? No, I never did because as I mentioned to you after six months of being forced, it clicked with me. I understood it. I got it. It was more rational than anything I had ever experienced in my life, you know, I mean, it made me feel better than anything I experienced in my life. It made more sense than anything I have experienced in my life. It was everything I wanted because I've always had an innate goal to be the best that I could be. And part of that is being as healthy as I can be. And I never witnessed a vehicle more optimal for that agenda than yoga. All right. Well, then at some point you start teaching, well, first of all, what was your experience of photography joys? Well, you know, it was multifaceted, you know, I mean, India is a dynamic, amazing place. Number one. And, you know, I got so much gratitude to him for him because he got me there, right? Like, you know, there was a point where I wanted to go to the source. You know, I mean, I love David and, you know, David and Brad were, you know, better teachers than Patabi. But I wanted to smell the smell of yoga and I wanted to taste the taste of yoga. You know, I wanted to, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to go to the source. So, you know, I wrote Patabi a letter because that's the, was that what you had to do with it. Yeah. Back in the day you wrote the letter and you had to get the letter back to say, okay, you can come, right? Exactly. Wow. So, I got that and then I, me and a buddy, we went there and when we got there, it was, there was nobody else there. It was just me and him. So, you know, I got to also a rare experience with Patabi because it was just me and him by ourselves. And, you know, and my buddy who didn't last long, right? Because his body was breaking. I mean, there was aggressive and, and he, at one point, he bailed and, you know, I remember thinking to myself, you know, he's weak. And, but later I realized he wasn't weak. He was strong. He was smart. And, you know, some, it takes strength to be humble enough to, to walk away and back off. And, and he was right. He was right. It was a very unhealthy way to practice. But it was also what I needed because it fit my mentality. I was an incredibly aggressive person. And I needed someone to look at me and tell me that I was broken and they could fix me because I thought I was broken because I grew up in America and you're born a fucking sinner. And the rest of your life, you're told you're not good enough in every single way. So, you know, I had that mentality like I wanted to be better. I wanted to be fixed. And, Patabi was like, hey, I can fix you. So, you know, it fit my mentality. So I needed to get broken before I realized that, that that was not the right way to do it. It was the absolute wrong way to do it, even though it was the necessary entrance for me. And, you know, and then I went and I spent, you know, a year with him. And it was, it was great, you know, I mean, you know, we went through a lot in that year, you know, I got severely injured, I got hepatitis, I got amoeba, just great. That's great. That's great. So you say that, and I get it because I came to yoga feeling broken to my mom had died and I felt completely broken. And there is a kind of hope hung out by some teachers or a claim hung out by some teachers that that yoga will fix you, which doesn't generally work. But then he was teaching in a somewhat harsh way, do you really, why was that so wonderful in a way? Why do you consider that wonderful? I'm sure you got a lot out of it and, you know, we try not to look back at our lives with regret, but are you shading over like, because a lot of people have such mixed feelings about him? Well, I, first of all, I have no regrets. It's like I said to you earlier, I had to go through that. Like, in order for me to be, see, I came from a culture that taught me no pain, no gain, and more is, and more is better. So I found me a teacher who gave me pain and gave me more, right? He's pushing me the, he's like a football coach, or he's Bella Coroli, you know, the famous gymnastics teacher, like, he's that mentality. He's like, go deeper, do more, push harder. Like, that's what I was looking for because that's all I knew. That's what I thought was appropriate. So he fit my mentality of what I thought was right. And I had to get totally broken in order to realize that wasn't right. But I would have never made that realization without being broken. So that's why, for me, I had to go through that, and now I spend my time trying to prevent people from going through that if they don't have to, you know? And, you know, I wish I had myself as a teacher when I was young, you know, like to go back and be able to, but, you know, I had to go through what I had to go through to learn everything that I learned, and I'm incredibly grateful. And as far as Batabi goes, you know, personally, you know, I mean, again, we had a love-how-hate relationship, you know? And I had a lot of problems with them, but, you know, I was there to get the yoga. I saw his, you know, he's someone that I would never want to emulate, you know? And, you know, I lost a lot of respect for him in a lot of ways. But he had the yoga. So even when I was there at one point, you know, other students started showing up. And at one point, there was a rebellion because, you know, of what he was doing with women and all this other shit. And I had to call a big student meeting at my, where I was staying. And you know, we all talked about it. And my point of view to everybody was, listen, you guys. You know, this guy's got these, you know, quote, unquote, ancient teachings, which I don't really even think he has at this point and other. Batabi people on who would beg to do it for, but yes, go ahead. Well, you know, I can back it up, but whatever, but whatever, it's, you know, he's got these teachings and my mentality back then was, let's take the good and leave the rest behind. Let's be a selective sponge. Right. Right. Let's absorb the yoga, but not all the bullshit that was happening at the periphery. You know? And if you were a girl and you didn't like the way he touched you, all you had to do is, you know, say to him, don't fucking touch me like that. And he never would again. You had to stand up for yourself. So, and if you couldn't do that, then yeah, you shouldn't be there because you would take advantage otherwise. But if like, you know, I know plenty of girls that were like, they, they just split and I know plenty of girls like, you know, eventually my girlfriend came out to meet me and, you know, he did something and she was like, you know, get the fuck off me and he, you know, he got offer and he never touched her again like that. But you had to stand up and we, you know, and I told the girls that were there that. Like you got a, you know, you got a, you know, that's kind of the point though that you have to be on guard in that way. But here's what I will say. And I, I know that at that time, especially this is even before I got into the scene, you, in order to have any kind of credibility as a teacher really, you would study with one of the yoga masters. He was one of the yoga masters. So when you say he had the yoga, if you wanted to go to the source, you would go to study with him or you'd go to study with Mr. Iongor or some people, I know, found Deskachar, but like you went to somebody who had some kind of connection to some kind of lineage or some kind of tradition. Yeah. Maybe, maybe. I mean, you know, you, you mentioned Max Strom, you know, he didn't do that, you know? Sure. I mean, there's, you didn't really, you know, I remember when he was a student in my class, you know, way back in the early yoga work days and she varay and I don't know if she would did that, um, I certainly know they weren't with Patabi. So I, you know, I understand what you're saying, but I would disagree. You don't need to go to India, but, but I definitely wanted to because I wanted to, I wanted to go to the source and in, you know, and you know, you could argue that Patabi wasn't the source. It was Krishna Macharya, you know, who was still alive then. So, um, yeah, you know, I actually went to his Shahla in Madras, which is now Shainai. Um, so anyways, uh, I mean, that's crazy. What was that like? How was that? Did you, I didn't get to practice with him there, but it was his studio and he wasn't there at that time. Right. Um, but he was alive and teaching. Hmm. So, you know, I mean, you could go to him too. I mean, you know, the, the, the truth, you know, the most powerful yoga I've ever experienced in my life, which is called the Pasadam meditation, you, you know, the whole course is disseminated on video, you know, you're, and it's the most powerful thing I've ever done in my life. So although I recommend going to India because India itself is bringing amazing, um, you know, any teachers listening, I don't think you need to go to study yoga in India, although it's not a bad thing, I, I, I just feel like going to India and experiencing because when you go to India, you experience what yoga really is and it's not the poses. I think that's true. I went for three months in 1998 and I, I, I traveled around and I did learn about yoga because if just like a, by the way, the relationship to time was and the way life happened there is more like the world view that yoga comes out of than like you said, being born and raised in the United States of America in the 80s, you know, we, we were born into a different culture. I remember my dad had a t-shirt that said, he who dies with the most toys wins, you know, like that was, that was the mentality. So that's why I kind of went towards Eastern spiritual practices as well. So I fully know what you mean in terms of India just teaching as a place in and of itself. I guess when you, when you come back, when do you start teaching in America in, in Los Angeles, do you start teaching straight ashtanga as you learned it or were you hybridding back then like Mati was? Well, first of all, when you know, when you are in India, even in India, 99.99% of all yoga in India is not physical, you know, I, I always say physical yoga is an American invention. You know, because when you go to India, you know, you can't find physical yoga. You know, I mean, like back then there was no internet, right? So like if I didn't, if I didn't know where patabi was because of David Williams, you wouldn't even find, you know, all the yoga's meditation and devotional practices, you know, and that alone is eye opening, right? Because, you know, we make a big deal out of the physical practice as an even necessary, you know. But you created power yoga. So when you were creating power yoga, I mean, maybe I will say this when I first heard that term, it was associated with you. I had Barrow Bender birch on it. I know she used it too, but she was really taking a stonga and like giving it to runners, basically. It was like a stonga for runners, but you were doing something different, but it still seemed like it was quite physical and quite powerful. I don't remember it being like seated meditation based so much as like flow based. Am I wrong? Well, you are, you're right, you're right, and wrong, even though I don't like to use it wrong. I framed it that way. But, you know, the thing is, is that the reason we called it power is because there's nothing on earth more powerful than gentleness. And there's nothing on earth more powerful than humility and gratitude. And the every great person, there's not a great person that walked on the planet from Jesus to Buddha, to Mother Theresa, to Martin Luther King, to Mandela, to Gandhi. None of them ever said you need to stick your legs behind your head. They all said the same thing. They all said try to develop benevolent qualities. Buddha talked about his teaching was moderation. You know, Gandhi non-violence, Martin Luther King equality, Jesus non-judgment, Mother Theresa compassion, right, the most powerful things are not anything to do with physical. So I was trying to bring a certain mentality into the physicality. And back then, you know, I wonder if no one would have come if we would have just meditated. You know, it was the big thing. I agree. I agree. I agree. I don't remember. Did you start out with that message of being more gentle, if I, back in 1995, or did that at all over time? Yeah, like if you go, if you go online. You can still, and you go look at my Warner Brothers videos from 1994, right, and you, and you watch one of my routines and you listen to the dialogue, I say the exact same things today. I just said the same thing to you. I say it then, you know, so I've been trying to bring, because you got to think about it like this. You got to agree, like anybody over 30 years old has, you know, that's one of the beautiful things about getting older. You just see shit over and over again, and the shit starts making sense. It's called wisdom, right? You can't have, you can't expect young people to have it because they haven't seen things enough. And one of the things you see is the harder you are on anything, the faster you destroy it. There's not anything on earth that doesn't fall under that law. Your automobile, your washing machine, your marriage, or your body, don't matter what it is. The harder you are on it, the faster you destroy it. So if you consider it, if you want to live as long as possible, feeling as amazing as possible, the last thing on earth you'd ever want to do is push your body hard, right? It's completely counterproductive to health and wellness. So I understood that. Now let me just paraphrase this by saying I also, still at that point, was had a huge ego. And you know, was still really attached to how I looked and how much I could do. So there was an internal battle within me, right? Like I knew all this shit, but I was still programmed by my culture. You know, my role models were like Clint Eastwood and Schwarzenegger. Right? So like, here I am like, you know, and I'm fighting and there was a time where I was lifting weights and doing yoga, even though I knew the weight lifting was pure vanity. I knew it, but I wasn't ready to let it go. Right. You know, but we all had to take pictures with our shirts off and stuff. Oh, you know, um, you know, I, I, we see, so let me stop you for a second, because first of all, I completely agree. I, I put myself through the awesome a ringer and then eventually came up with a slogan which was gentle is the new advance. So I, I fully came to the same things you're talking. It's just incredibly ironic in a way because, you know, the term, the phrase power yoga, came to mean something very different than what you're saying. Like I remember years later, being in Japan and they didn't really even know different, like lineages. They just knew hot yoga and power yoga and power yoga came to mean basically like a fast pace, vinyasa flow, like a hot, sweaty flow, you know, well, you know, I never trademarked power yoga. I never, I'm not a businessman. I wasn't interested. I remember when I heard that Barrow was using the name and this is like eight years after I had been doing it, you know, and I remember hearing that she was, and I thought she took it from me. Now, you know, I've had conversations with her and she said she thought of it too or whatever. And I have no reason not to believe her. So I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that we both came up with it. But, you know, I remember when she was using it, you know, I was like, what do I don't give a shit? I mean, I'm a yogi. What do I care? You know, I'm going to get everything that I'm supposed to get. I don't need to control all this. That's the business world that I didn't want to be a part of, right? So I just shrugged my shoulders and let it go, right, and I didn't care. So eventually, she cared, you know, she, I got a letter from a lawyer from her telling me to cease and desist. And I just left. I'm like, oh my God, welcome to the LA business world or the New York business world. I mean, it's an interesting point. When you opened your center in whatever it was 1995, I guess, did you open it as a donation based center or how did I open my center as a donation based center because I'll give you the background. But what I was about to say is is that because I didn't trademark it, power yoga became a generic term like Kleenex, right? Kleenex is actually a company, right? But when you think of tissue to blow your nose, you call it Kleenex, you know, it's like a generic term, right? So once everybody's, or many people started calling their yoga power yoga, I couldn't control what they were teaching. So the power yoga you probably got was probably not the power yoga I was teaching. Even though the power yoga I was teaching was one killer workout. Let me say the, but wait a second. So the power yoga you were teaching was giving people a killer workout, but was about being gentle and not overworking your body at the same time. Yeah, because a killer, I have a different definition of a killer workout. Okay. Right? A killer workout is a workout that, you know, there's five pillars of fitness, right? Strength, stamina, cardio, flexibility, and balance. And I was giving people a workout that included all that, right? It was the most dynamic. It was the greatest cross-training on planet earth in one workout session. So yeah, I was giving people an amazing workout. And I was encouraging people to challenge themselves, but not force themselves. And I was mentioning to people that sometimes the biggest challenge is to get the hell out of your ego and back off, right? Because your body is your sacred partner, and your sacred partner speaks to you in a language called sensation. And pain is your sacred partner saying, please stop, right? If you put someone else in pain and they ask you to stop and you don't stop, you go to jail. That's called rape or assault and battery, right? But most people exercise like that, right? Their body screaming, stop, but they're pushing deeper because we grew up with this mentality, no pain, no gain, which is insane. You know, so I was trying to wake people up, but at the same time, I was trying to give people what they wanted, but spoon them what they needed. See that? It was this weird, dynamic, and it was this, I'm still trying to find the balance. And that's what I was just going to ask you about because what you just said, I'm and believe me, I'm not trying to say like I'm the same. I think a lot of teachers are where a lot of people do come to yoga for physicality. And I don't think that that's about. I just had someone on the other week and they talked about it like, well, maybe someone only comes because it makes them feel physically better. What's wrong with that? Nothing's wrong with that. Well, that's what I was going to ask you because it seems like you said earlier in this conversation that if you go to India and I had the same experience, yoga wasn't about. Awesome as it was about chanting and a certain state of mind and relationship to the divine maybe. Let me talk to that person that said that. Okay. Now I totally understand what that person means. So in a way, I get it and I'm not saying that person's wrong, but they're missing something huge, right? And that is, if this is only about your body, right? First of all, 90 to 95% of all physical disease is coming from mental stress. That's why the yogis in India don't even do physical yoga. Because if you really want to be healthy, you have to look at your mind state because the disease is emanating from your mind. It's just manifesting on your body. So number one, you're missing the whole point of what you want, which is health. Number one, number two is if you're not doing it with mindfulness. If you're not concerned with bringing the qualities of meditation into your physicality, then what you're going to be doing is you're going to be playing out your old habit patterns in your physical practice, right? So you're actually going to be strengthening the qualities that hurt you. You're going to bring your aggressiveness. You're going to bring your forcefulness. You're going to bring your competitiveness. You're going to bring your reactiveness. If this is only about your body, then you're actually going to be strengthening the qualities that produce stress. And you don't even know it because you're only worried about what your body is doing and not what your mind is doing within the pose. So even though I understand that, it's a court, you know, of course it makes people feel good. Arnold Schwarzenegger said when he's done lifting weights, he feels orgasms throughout his entire fucking body. All right, all physical exercise makes you feel good. It releases endorphins and especially yoga because you're stretching which dissolves tension. So when you come out of yoga, you feel amazing. No matter even I felt amazing after the estanga yoga, but I was for a while before the pain taken later. I was destroying myself. I felt amazing in the near term, but in the long term now at 50 years old, I'm paying for the trip I laid out myself when I was young. So no, if you don't do it with a certain mindfulness, you're going to harm yourself even though you leave the class initially feeling good. Right? So yeah, I agree with that person in the sense that I get what they're saying, but no, no, no. You know, people feel good from lifting a lot of weight too. People feel good from running too, even though they're destroying their knees and they're lower back and their hips. Right? I mean, you can walk away from an exercise feeling good and still be harming yourself. I mean, listen, I made a whole niche career talking about what you're talking about now. And the big obstacle is that people come to yoga for fitness purposes. Part of that is. Yoga was brought into the mainstream as another form of fitness. You yourself said, I was giving people what they want. I was giving them this well-wounded workout and then also probably putting in all kinds of other things. But has that backfired? Has it backfired using the physicalities to basically be able to market it better because people wouldn't have come like you said if it was just sitting and meditating because you think that's backfired on us now and nowadays we're up against everybody thinking it's fitness. No, no, not at all. First of all, it hasn't backfired at all because number one, for the people of the fitness mentality, nothing's changed, right? It's always, exercise has always been about fitness, physical fitness, right? And it still is for those people. And that's fine. No judgment to them, right? But, you know, the thing is, is that I had to always be honest about where I was. And whatever I was teaching was where I was, right? So I, like I said to you earlier, I knew it was more, but I still wanted the physical stuff. So I was doing, I was doing the physical stuff and bringing in the other stuff. That's where I happened to be. And another thing, dude, you, the reason for the asanas, asanas are not bad. Asanas are good. We must have gotten something from them, or we probably still wouldn't be doing them anything. We still get something from them. See, see the body requires maintenance in order to feel optimal. Asanas are the ultimate maintenance tool. There's nothing wrong with asanas. I just came back 10 minute, right before I, 10 minutes before I talked to you, I was teaching an asana class, right? So we need the asana as a maintenance stuff, but you have to change your mentality. The asana and the exercise is not about changing you. It's about caring for you. Don't you brush your teeth? Why do you brush your teeth? Because you can't take care of your teeth if you don't brush them. Well, how are you going to brush your hips? How are you going to brush your shoulders? How are you going to brush your pectorials, your glutes, your hamstrings, your toes? You got to touch those things. Asanas are fucking brilliant. The problem is the American mentality inside of the asana.