Broken Bones, Tour Wins & Why Happiness Beats Pressure - Tom Pidcock

I don't like watching myself, so I won't listen to this podcast, for example. Two Olympic gold medals, world titles in three disciplines. At 25, I've looked at one of the biggest teams in sport, decided it wasn't working. Walked away from a contract that was three years to go. You go into certain situations and pie pressure moments where I think mental strength really makes a difference and gives you an edge. How in that moment do you park your emotions already roadside the thing that allows you to stay within the controllables? I'm a person that hates wasting time, wasting energy. If you're there, you're stressing or you're anxious about things that haven't even happened. It's like, it's just a waste of energy. I love training hard, but knowing that I have a week off there, I know that I can have this spend and do all this stuff when I have this week off. If I'm not saying, "Okay, I want to win a stage, I want a podium, I want to be top five or whatever it is," then there is nothing to fail at, you know. Tom Pitcock, two Olympic gold medals, world titles in three disciplines, simultaneously the Outdoor Stage at the age of 22, an inhabit of descending at 100 kilometers an hour in Lycra that makes. His sponsor is probably quite nervous and the rest of us feel a little average. He is also someone who at 25 looked at one of the biggest teams in sport, decided it wasn't working. Walked away from a contract that was three years to go and built something smaller from scratch. I reckon most people would have stayed and collected the salary, but the world of podium last year suggests he knew something the rest of us didn't. Tom, welcome to Pitcock Going Mental. How you made? Yeah, thank you. I'm all right. I'm good. Happy to be here on camp. So, you know, fill in this rest day talking to you, which is not a lot of that thing at all. Rest day, where about are you? Up in Sierra Nevada. My first time here actually, but I'm a tour prep company. All right. And how's that working out? Sierra Nevada seems to be the fashionable place for endurance athletes to go. Yeah, I was ridiculous. It's a bit like Calpa in December. I think there's some of the only 14 world tour teams here might be wrong, but a lot of them have gone home now. We're kind of staying later than a lot of teams, but yeah, busy up here. Fair enough. Fair enough. Tom, we traditionally start this podcast with a standard question because we're kind of trying to figure out a global definition of going mental. When you hear going mental, what does that ring for you? Where does that take you? If you say go mental, just straight out, it sounds like someone's going a bit nuts. I agree, 100%. Like for me, going mental, the many devices that we have on our bikes and that we train with. If one of them wouldn't work, I'd go mental and just lose my shit. And just throw my toys. That to me was going mental. But going mental can be a crazy descent, can be, I don't know, something more quiet, can be a night out. Lots of things. We've had lots of answers from athletes and people who all see it as something very different. So if you think of going mental, what, what, you know, where does it take you? Okay. Okay. Well, I think, yeah, straight away, it goes into my mind is, yeah, someone came very angry with something. But I think you could also look at it in a way that, you know, maybe a bit more relatable to this podcast and the frame of mind that you go into in certain situations and pie pressure moments where I think mental strength really makes a difference and gives you an edge. Today's show is brought to you by the folks at a Ryzen. For those who don't know the brand yet, Ryzen develops high quality performance sportswear for people who love endurance sports. 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It was a bit of a blessing. I must say, I mean, we had so many group rides. So many also inspirational people, you know, the brown leaves, which obviously when I was, yeah, JuniF trained fair bit with them. Like you say, the chain gang was an incredible place to train. I think Tuesday and Thursday evenings and short ride in tents. It was really valuable. And obviously, you know, Lizzie Armistad, another Lizzie Diagonan, big. Name and inspiration in Yorkshire, Yorkshire Cycling, and you know, there's many other edclancy, also the crit scenes. You know, we had a lot of good riders and a lot of different group rides to ride. And I never trained alone when I was young. Now it's different. You know, we have so many specific efforts. And actually, I prefer to ride on my own so I can get the most out of the training. But yeah, I think it just really everything there contributed to where I am now. I mean, it seems like one of those things that really shapes you as a person and having these characters and having these champions around you is that something, you know, that shapes your idea of what's actually possible. Like how far you can take this? I think so for sure. I think, you know, everyone has, as different levels of different perceptions of what they think is hard work. I think I was lucky in seeing what actual hard work was like you say, you mentioned the brownies, you know, they would have been, I don't know, swimming in the morning, they probably did a ride in the morning. Then they come in the chain gang and then they stop. When we finish the chain gang at the end, they'd hidden the shoes in a bush and then they're going to do a run. You know, that's hard work and that's dedication. I think also my daddy works really hard at work. He would come home late, he would get changed in five minutes and then we'd be late for the chain gang and we'd be riding their full gas to get there on time. Do the chain gang go home then have dinner? You know, I think I'm pretty lucky that I was kind of shown outside of what actual hard work is. Yeah, because most people would think, you know, you want to start protective and you want to start ease into things and it can be quite intimidating thing. I mean, certainly from the outside, you know, hearing the rumors of this environment as an athlete and standing on the other side of the fence is definitely something intimidating. At what point did you think it was something that you probably needed to change? You spoke about intervals being so specific, you prefer riding on your own. Is that simply a geographical thing or when you come back home, do you still jump in with the boys and have a good crack? Oh, when did it change? I think, yeah, when it got more serious, you know, I think under 23, it got a bit more serious and then I'll be back. when he turned pro, then it all changes. But I think, yeah, there was never really that pressure and seriousness when I was young. I took it seriousness in a way that you have to do black and white kind of in the lines, whereas I took it seriously that I wanted to perform. But I did it in a way of having fun and, you know, Chain Gang is very, you know, you can't really say, okay, you're going to do a five minute effort at this, what, you know, it was just Chain Gang, you're right hard. You get back to the, the Shevon on the way home out of Otley, you go full gas and then you kind of get to the finish and do a sprint. And yeah, I think, I think over time it changed and obviously now it's gotten a lot more serious. I think I'm also quite lucky that from where, you know, lucky and unlucky and that how, you know, high performance everything is now on the level and the depth of the level in the pro peloton. But at least I'm, I had the years as a junior where I didn't have a power meter and, you know, I could do enjoy my bike and things like this. I think now it's a bit different. Yeah, because your first world title was at 17, right? I mean, you came in super early and at that time you were still in that environment, right? Yeah, I mean, I think also that environment then I was on the junior academy with British cycling, running on the track. Like I had to do national traction, I'm pretty sure every year, I didn't really enjoy the track, but it was just part of the pathway. It's kind of dwindled a little bit now, I think, you know, before it was really the way that all British riders came through, you know, Camindish, G, Stanards, Swiff D, all these guys, they came through the pathway with British cycling. And I think it was, that was also, I wouldn't say it was outdated, but they kept everything quite simple. You know, our training was on Excel's Budsheets and I don't know, maybe we went to training peaks at that point, but no, it was not power. It was, it was all quite, quite basic. And I think that that really kept it a bit pure, you know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I really want to touch on that and like, performing also from a happy place, which I think we have something in common. But before we go there, just finishing up on the history, because you said you rode with your dad to the chain gang, your brother is also a cyclist who's with you in your current team. What does it mean to you, having him, having him around and having, having those routes kind of close to you? Yeah, I mean, I think it's, well, I'm very lucky. I think, you know, to have him in the same team as me. He, also makes me really proud, you know, that the one he's done just seen, you know, because I know he has more struggles than I do to, you know, in every, every kind of way. And it gives me a bit of perspective as well. And I think how lucky I am that I can work so hard and I can, you know, have the mindset I do. But I just think it's great that, you know, I can be in the same team as him. And like, what was it, not last year, the year before we, we raced together as well. The only time we were raced together in the pro-Pelatonin Torbritton, which is really nice. Yeah. Are you having to touch on those points? Like, what do you mean when he struggles more or what do you see? What about him makes you realise your talent or make you feel like you've got, you know, something of an edge? Well, he has ADHD. So he struggles just things, everyday things are harder for him, you know, it's not so simple of, you know, he's got a problem and he needs to, to find a solution to fix it. You know, that, the amount of energy it takes him to think about the problem and to talk to the people he needs to to help solve it or the effort he takes him to do the training and it's, you know, I don't fully understand that. I still give him some shit sometimes for that. Come on. But, you know, I try to, I try to. Yeah, I love it. It seems to be, I definitely, your, your actual leads kind of brotherly thing giving each other shit and carrying each other across the line. Talking about struggles and perhaps some, some setbacks, I mean, I find it absolutely phenomenal, your ability to, to come back. And of course, we have to start in, in Tokyo, six weeks out. You break your collarbone in five different places. A few days later, you're sitting on the bike and, you know, there's, there's the chance that, yes, that plate will most likely hold. But like, in the preparation, there's a serious risk of infection having stitches in all this kind of thing. And how do you make the calculation, like not medically, but in your head? How do you decide that this is the risk you're worth taking on a daily basis? Good question. I think there's a lot of, you know, layers to it because I think different people, like I was talking yesterday with, my physio used to work in football. And the, and he would say like, you know, when a player got injured, it often just fly back to the home country and, you know, the team wouldn't really ever clue what was going on and they'd just turn up one day and it's better. They won't really work to, to fix it. And I, I, I can't do that. I don't know, like, I have to, because I know how hard it is to get in shape, right? And I have a responsibility to be in shape before. So the longer you leave it, every day, every, well, I say hour, but every day that you're not on the bike, you're losing shape. And it's going to be a big amount of time when you come back. And I think, yeah, when I broke my collar bone, I wasn't even annoyed. It was just like, right, I just accepted what it was. I mean, I'm pretty lucky, really. I mean, I sit that, hit the side of a post fan at 60 km/h on my CT bike. It did a new turn in front of me and I broke my collar bone on the A pillar. And, the only impact. And then I flew about 20 meters down the road, had a cut on my hip and a sprained ankle basically and smashed the plastic heel cup on my shoe. And that was all I did. So, I mean, I'm pretty lucky. Yeah, just once I was there lying on the floor, I just, you know, wasn't angry. I mean, that's just, I think it was just a waste of energy when you, you're stressed or you're, there was a point. It's happened. So I was just focused, right? Okay. Chill out, had a piece from the way home, organised the surgery. I think two days, two days after in Darona, Dr. Custin over in Matty, they did a great job. And then, yeah, they, then the work started out there, really. Yeah, it's funny because that same team has kind of put me together a few times. But how in that moment do you park your emotions already, roadside and be like, okay, the only good thing I could do right now is get some fuel that I feel like and just move on, you know, especially so close to the Olympics. You know, it was a whole drama at that time as well. The Olympics had been moved. Like, what is the thing that allows you to stay within the controllables? Yeah, I think I'm a person that hates waste, right? Wasting time, wasting energy. And I think it comes back to that. Like, if you're there, you're stressing or you're, you're anxious about things that haven't even happened. They worry about it when it happens. And yeah, at that point, it was like, okay, right, we're going to get the X-ray at hospital, went to Pugshade, the scan was for a bit. She showed it was broken in one place and then it was broken in seven. So we're like, right, we'll just go back to Andorra, stay in the hotel tomorrow, go to Drona, because I was sleeping in big mile at the time. And then the work started. I think also when I'm under under pressure, when times against me, everything comes out and I work even harder, every effort counts. And it kind of brings more out of me as well. Yeah, that's really interesting. I find that actually quite relatable that it's so that like, if there's a deadline and there's a setback and then you kind of need to muster up all your courage. But you know, you kind of have these moments throughout your career when you look, at least from the outside in, going to Paris, Paris Olympics, 2024, a few weeks earlier, you have to pull out with COVID. And you know, is there nothing within you that just wonders as like, okay, gee, this is like, could be a long term thing, you know, this could be something where I'm undoing. And I'm trying to get it like, as an athlete, I understand it 100%. But for the listeners, where do you draw that line between, you know, being willing to put everything on the line and making irrational decisions? Yeah, that's a thing because, you know, not many people know about it, but I have chronic knee pain in my left knee. For the same, you know, I push things, I try to come back quickly, obviously quite, you know, with, not, you know, within kind of reasonable time frames and obviously, you know, I'm getting checked and everything, I'm not being stupid. But, you know, when I joined in EOS, they said I couldn't ride. The shoes I was riding at the time, I had to try different ones. And yeah, I did a few days of testing on them out and I went on bike because I also wanted to ride that. And then I picked these shoes, I rode them. And then the next day, we went out training knee pain. One of the only times I've ever got in the car in training ride. And we pushed that way too much. I raced the next weekend with knee pain. The day, there was a three day race hope, hope, VAR, I think it was called my first ever pro race. The day after the race, I did a little easy ride down the coast in Nice before I flew home or I don't know what I was doing. And my power balance was like 70/30 or something. - Whoa. - And then I should have just been like, "Right, this knee pain, we just saw it out." But we kept pushing. And yeah, now I have chronic knee pain probably for the rest of my career. So that's when it's, that's when if you don't take the necessary measures and take the time you need, then yeah, you can bike back. Three swim sessions, four rides, three runs every week and you wonder why your legs feel like concrete by Thursday. 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Head to pillarperformance.com and use code going mental for 15% off first purchase. Give triple magnesium a go. Your next morning will tell you everything. - Yeah, so I mean for the non-cycling list and the 70, 70, 30 means that you're pushing 70% of power through one leg. And normally this, I think up to a three, four percent variance is probably what it should be. But is that, I think most people are like 51, 49 or? - Yeah. - Yeah. It's never really a big difference, I think. - Yeah, it's never a good sign anyways, because unfortunately through your knee pain, I've had to borrow some of your rehab tools throughout my career. And I know exactly. - I can't say that. - The more you see the power dropping on the one side and going up, it's never a good sign. Do you think that's external sponsor pressure, needing to perform, having someone else? - I think that was for sure, because my first months in the in Nios turning pro, it was, yeah, that was a mistake that we made and also Kurt who's been with me since for eight, nine years now. And also inside it was also a mistake that we pushed on. Never because I turned him for everything for advice. And we didn't take the time I needed there. And that was a mistake. - Is he kind of your one year or what kind of role was in your career? - Well, he was my coach. For a long time. He still oversees that. But he, I don't really know how to describe it, but he oversees everything and wise head and advice. And he was, in Nios, I had a coach and he was kind of the, my other coach, they worked together to create the trainings. He comes with me to the mountain bike, race plans, you know, pet talks, everything, you know, motivation. And he's just the guy who's been with me through it all basically since I was, since that can be on the 23. - Yeah, I think it's, it's so important having someone like that in your corner. It's so underrated having somebody who kind of takes the 10,000 foot view at times, you know, and is invested in a way, but is able to do that. Because let's be honest, you're a unique character. Like in pro cycling, I feel like everybody is meant to be a cog in the system. You're meant to function. And here you are going out, you're winning mountain bike races, you're cycle cross world champion, you're doing, you know, a whole variety of things. Do you think that's, is that something you need to keep you engaged to keep you entertained? - I think you're honest, the reason why I did all these disabilities is because I was good at them all and I could win races. And yeah, that's why we work hard, isn't it, to win, to perform, to smash new goals. So I think that's the main reason I think, once I became world champion cycle cross, and I did another winters world champion, I didn't put the time in that I'd put in before, and it was, it was tough, you know, that that's the hardest discipline to me by far. And, you know, being, it's the hardest discipline for me to perform, the amount of time I need to, I need to be 100% to perform there. But also as a discipline, it's the hardest. Like, it's the winter, it's cold, the days are short, it's dark, like a cycle cross race is an hour, oh, it's an hour, but you drive to the race, you do a recon, you warm up, you have to warm up properly, or I do at least, then from the first two seconds of the race, you know if it's going to be good or bad, because you're sprinting down the start straight and you know, it counts from the get-go. And then, you know, all this mental energy for the days, it's really tough, I had, you know, how guys do it for full winter, I don't know, it helps that a lot of them live an hour Belgian, and that's where the message to the races are, but I just couldn't, the last two years I haven't done it, and I couldn't motivate myself to do it, and also the time we need to put in for the road, how to count some things like this, it's, yeah, I said, you know, this year I wanted to go back, but when you get into the road season, and you know, or only in June, I'm like already like, fucking, but we have to do, we have to cross, you know, I love it, but at the same time, like the end, the older you get, the less of this energy, you have to just do everything, you know, it runs out, I think, I think it's a bit finite, but my bike's a bit different, I think it's nice to get away from the road, to different environment, I find it so easy compared to every other discipline to just jump on a bike, if I'm in good shape, and I can perform, and I think that's, that also makes it enjoyable for me, I mean, it's a bit, yeah, saying that is, like taking the piss a little bit, isn't it, but that's why I also, I enjoy it so much, I think. - Yeah, I mean, it's that kind of generation of you, if you wanna say cycling superstars, who are coming out and, you know, performing across various disciplines, and arguably you've done it better than anyone with two Olympic goals, I mean, that's, that's, you know, nothing to scoff at, and then you come in in the middle of the season, and just jump into a World Cup such as last week, and you know, come away with a win, and what I'm really trying to get at is, is that the playfulness that you need to actually, you know, perform, 'cause when I look at you, and I look from the outside, it does look like you need to perform from a happy place. You don't strike me as an angry bloke, who just needs to hate the world, and things to go sideways in order to perform. - Now, I think I'm the author, I have to enjoy to perform. I'm not the person you can perform off anger. I think, like, I had this thought climbing up here the other day, and like, you know, X was here in January, while we were in Chile, and we were riding, well, we were riding in 35 degrees, and they were here on the Turbo Trainer for four weeks. - Yeah, they were absolutely right. - I was thinking, there is no way I would do four weeks on a Turbo Trainer. I don't care how much I get paid, I don't care, I'd quit before I did that. There's no way I would do that. And I think it's just, you know, people have the, their motivations come from different places, and the mind comes from enjoying it, and if I can't enjoy it, then the performance isn't gonna come. - Well, I find it unique, because you moved in, right? And you signed a contract with Inos, a team that's known for like marginal gains, [BLANK_AUDIO] the very fine-tuning, sleep optimization, and all the things that come with it. And you have an absolute standout opening year. Smash races, left, right, and center have that infamous descent on the Tour de France. I mean, who could forget the images? Vicariously living through that. But then I feel like that's so kind of opposite to your character. And you decided to step away after a while. Is that something where you now build it according to your own character, according to your own strength? Yeah, I think being here and I have everyone around me believes in me, supports me. We're all in this mission together, in a mission to just be as good as we can be. And I think the team that I joined, you know, now we're in the Tour de France this year, we can pick our races. We're already growing so fast. And I think it makes every little success, a success, whereas in another team, it would just be expected. And as well as the performance side, which is obviously is here, is fantastic. I mean, the level of coaching and knowledge of physiology, nutrition is better than I've ever experienced. Also the kind of project of building a team that I am more involved in than, you know, in any other, like when I was under 23, my manager set up TPR, which is Tom Piedgott Racing, which is now Trinity, which was a team basically for me before I went to any of us. So I could still do cross a mountain bike. And I think they're also, you know, as involved, you know, like these things also really interest me and creating a project and having success in different ways. I think this is also something that really, really motivates me, creating a story, basically, is what I'm trying to say. It's not just about the performance and the winning. What, mate, you're 26 now. You won your first world title at 17. And you touched on expectations there, which, you know, if you're a world champ at 17, born into the British system, again, blessing and occurs, you know, you're following in some big footsteps. Kind of the expectation is for you to win at all times. Does that, you know, ever kind of weigh on you or you somebody who switches off to that and just, you know, focus internally? I think, I think winning still young was a blessing and a curse. I think like my first world title when I was 17 and cycle cross, there I had like, what's it called now? Not depression, but low mood. Yeah. And, you know, as a young, like a teenager, is, you know, going through that was, and figuring everything out was, you know, actually the best thing that could ever happen to me, because I know my head so well now. I know that that I could, it couldn't control it, you know, whatever you're thinking or however you feel is irrelevant. And also, I kind of was in this cycle of like, I'm just going to, I kind of was competing with this thing and I'm going to still succeed even if you don't want me to kind of think. And yeah, I won the cross world, nationals, junior pirate, re-bay, those races, and then, time travel champion all in this period where I had a little mood. And I think that made me, you know, resilient to outside pressures as well, because, you know, that cross, well title, I only lost one World Cup that year when I, then I crashed on my chainkamer for something, I only lost one race that year, so I could only lose, really. And also, I built myself up so much that down afterwards was terrible. I didn't know what to do anymore. I like, this goal had been in my head for a year. I learned that, you know, you can't build yourself up so much, you have to stay a bit more on a level so that you build up to these big goals, but then you don't like pull me off a cliff afterwards. I kind of forgot what your question was, but I've just gone on a bit ever. Yeah, no, no, it's fantastic. I really love it. But the thing that really struck me is that you said, "If you don't want me to, I'll keep going even if you don't want me to. Who's you?" You is my low mood, my brain is telling me things, other things that, like, I don't want to write. I don't like writing. All these things, and I like, yeah, I do. Because if I don't like writing, then why have I been doing it all my life already? So I think, yeah, just a massive accelerated learning curve. I haven't learned any curve just under learning about myself on my own head, I guess. Yeah, just a proper internal boxing match, because that's in the end what makes you right? I find that you need to ask those questions over and over again, as to why do you want to go out training? Why do you want to go and ride the tour? Because you've publicly said, like, you wanted to ride the tour, and this was such a big dream of yours and everything came together. Then your first tour, like, yes, you had a stage win on top of Alp Duets. But overall, it wasn't a particularly enjoyable experience. Yeah, I think the first year was enjoyable. That was great fun. But then afterwards, yeah, the tour is such a place that's. It's so intense, and the spotlight and the media pressure, and the questions and the, you know, having to kind of, like, not explain yourself, but tell people. The media are asking quite like, "Yeah, I have one of the favourites for today, and you've got to kind of be like, "Eh, maybe you feel really shit, and you feel really good, and then you do rubbish, and then it's just a really intense place, and I think if it's not going well, it's miserable. It's not a nice place, but I think it's the biggest race in the world. It's cool as racing, but it's the race I grew up watching. So, you know, when it goes well, I can't be a better. There isn't a better place to perform, you know? But yeah, I think it's about not really having expectations that you had this year. I'm not going with an expectation. I want to race, and I want to have fun. And the rest will come. And if I'm not saying, "Okay, I want to win a stage, I want a podium, I want to be top five, or whatever it is," then there is nothing to fail at, you know? I think, you know, like when you were saying about winning so early, I think that I could only lose, and I think, you know, if that pressure comes from outside, it's okay, but when it starts building up inside, then it all goes wrong. And then the year after juniors, when I was on 23, there was in a hotel too long with four-door championship, so I can cross. I think it was in Falconberg, yeah. And just every been playing, I was like, "I'm not nervous," and then I started playing it in my head. I need to be nervous. And then it was like the emotional drain of that for like four days before, I got to the race, and I was 30 or something. You know, it was, I had nothing. And I think it just shows how little things can make a big impact. Yeah, and in a grand tour, like, this is something, as a one-day performer, right? And I think most people can have certain days in their year that are particularly important. You have a presentation, you have something where you're going out. You're a champion, you love winning, you go to the tour, it's three weeks, right? And if it's going fantastic, but I mean, amazing, you're losing 17 days in those three weeks, you know, essentially. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Take me into that a little bit. Yeah, I mean, for me, that's also one of super difficult things. But you say, I would say I value myself on being that guy who can perform on the day. And when I highlight that day, I'm there 100%. I'm ready, you know? And a grand tour, like, I think the fall to last year was massive for me. It was, it was not my biggest achievement on paper, but I think if you almost enjoy a ball or the best or whatever, but if you actually looked at it objectively, for me, that I concentrated and I was there for three weeks was a massive thing. I think that's also the, to be that focus for three weeks is not a simple thing to do, especially, you know, someone like me who's, you know, I, you can see I do different disciplines. I like having stimulus all the time. I like being excited, but they have to be serious, which is fine. I enjoy it, but then when it goes wrong, there's so many different factors. And for three weeks, it's intense. And like you say, there I was racing for the podium, I could build bow, I should have won the stage, I won't cancel for all the protesters, whatever. So it was going great. And then it's easy. But when you're fighting for a top 10, and each stage, you're like fighting for a top 10, it's just like the motivation to stay in that right head space for me is like I really struggled with that because it's like it's not worth it for what I'm getting out of it. So yeah, it's tough, but I think last year in the Vulton made me realise what I can achieve and how much satisfaction it can give when I do it. And what would you say you did different in that prep, was there something within the team, were there rituals? Do you have rituals? Have you found something to keep you in there, to keep you engaged, to keep you coming back to, like you said, the controllables, but also a place of motivation and being fired up about this childhood dream? I think one thing is we have a really, I want to say family kind of vibe in the team where we're in it together and where the whole, everything I feel part of it all, the whole project, the whole team, and that also gives me, I can't let these, I can't let people down. It on the bad days, that's what gets me through and the good days obviously, the good days, you erase yourself for yourself. You're trying to win, it's just the mindset. But yeah, we've done this mission, we're all trying new things, we all have like feel this, you know, have skin in the game and I think that's what really made a difference obviously. I think the training was made a big difference. You know, a lot of nutrition, all these things that I've done differently to before, obviously, it also helped me to be at a level. Talk to me about skin in the game, what does that mean for your team? I mean, for you, it's kind of obvious because of course your performance, the whole team stands and falls with you, which is a responsibility, but like we always said, blessing in a curse, but skin in the game for the team. Well, I think it comes down to what the team is in that, you know, we're representing, well, first and foremost, brands that owned by the owner of the team and, you know, Pinarello, for example, for me is a brand that I have a big relationship with, that I have, I've give value that I have a responsibility to perform for because of what they've done for me in my career. You know, they made them out on bike for me, which I won Olympic title on, they made a psych prospect, which I won a World title on, you know, just for me. And, you know, so I owed them, I feel like I owed them for what they did also coming to this team from the situation before with Ineos. Yeah, what they promised me, you know, what they could do for me, they believed in me, they wanted me in the team, they wanted me to come here and they wanted to help me and took my form to my best and they would do whatever it took to help me get the most out of myself. And then it wasn't like, right, we want you to come here and you have to win the Tour de France and this and this is like, we want you in our team, we think you can add value to our team and we're going to give you everything that we can that you need to perform and then the rest is up to you and what there's such a healthy, healthy environment to be in I think. Yeah, it is fascinating because yes, that is fantastic and that's what you want and people believing in you, but you know, other people would argue, well, that's just a massive weight on your shoulders. And like you said, you owe someone and the fact that that drives you, I find really interesting because it's something that, I think responsibility in general is probably not the easiest to deal with. Is that always come naturally to use or something you seek out? I think I perform best when I have that responsibility because I actually like sometimes struggle before and in the US, obviously there's so many good riders there, but you know, when you're in a race and you're a po leader, I actually like contradictory to what this this Netflix documentary made out of at the tour, which did was completely, you know, fumbled and not even in chronological order. But uh, I'm quickly take us into that. Please, you have to since you brought it up. I actually haven't watched it, but I know for a fact that it's not in the correct order. First of all, and they make out that me and Carlos have this this big thing rivalry within the team and a lot, but we start the race. We are both there to do our best to perform for the GC. And, and I think it's very clear that, you know, at some point, one's going to be in front of the other and we're going to have to sacrifice at some point, but it's made out that I'm racing Carlos, but actually I'm just trying to, you know, explore what I can do, you know, and how far I can push myself, what I can do in the mountains. And yeah, it makes me out as a bad guy, I think, but, um, yeah, I actually, when I'm there with, you know, other leaders, I struggled to really focus on myself because I also think about them in a way. And I can't be selfish, which you actually need to be to get the most out of yourself. So I think that is, that is also something here where when I am at a race, the guys are 100% committed to me. And I can just focus on being selfish, getting the most out of myself, because I know they're going to rely on me to perform. And I think that is a, to me, is where I can perform my best. It makes total sense, right? You're trying to prove yourself all year long. You've got all these qualifications. You're trying to get to the tour. You're trying to do all these things, right? And then you still have to prove yourself within the team that seems like such an unhealthy place to actually perform because every time you look at, you know, a team decision, you're like, well, is this actually, in my best interest that we're trying to spread ourselves too thin? It's kind of weird. Yeah, there's a lot of other things which I'm, I'm not going to go into, but it was, you know, other people in the team, there are different ideas about, you know, what I should be doing and let's not go there because I would like to go to the point that you made that you didn't watch it. And I'm wondering whether you watched results and whether you watched back kind of episodes, all these kind of things. And the background I'm coming to you from is that I never did. I never watched results of races. I never watched back another race. And I wonder if, you know, yeah, that's just something that drives you. Yeah, no, I don't like watching myself. So I won't listen to this podcast, for example. But it's out. I have to listen. You just watch it without that. You know, you can watch the episode. And I don't watch myself race or watch back races. Probably could learn something from it, but I don't. I like to, I like to, when I've done a race, I like to then get away. You know, for example, if I'm doing a stage race and I call Beth, my fiance after the stage, I want her to tell me about her day. I don't want to talk about my day. I like, I think she can see that TV, you know, I like to get away and talk about something else. I don't really like to, you know, go more into cycling with so much in this world. It's nice to be on the other side. And then watching bike races that I'm not in, it depends on my mood. Sometimes I like watching them still. But like, yeah, 24, didn't watch any bike races, didn't have any social media. I just didn't want anything to do with it. And now I'm enjoying watching races again. Yeah, cool. Let's go to that part when the cycling ends. You said you like to call Beth. And she herself seems to carry a similar kind of hustle culture to you. Like you are certainly in a position where you don't need to do anything. If you wanted to, I think there's a good chance you could retire today. Beth is decorating most of the people in my social social circles houses. And you know, you guys keep it pretty real for living such an out of this world life. Is that your your future background or where, how come you guys value that? Yeah, I think what we've always said and also Kirk was quite loud about this when we first started working together that Beth needs her own thing that she because he seems what girlfriends of cyclists can not be like, maybe it's a bit harsh, but you know they kind of just want attention and are you training all day but what about me? And I think it's really important that you know she has her own thing, her own value because because of me and you know people know me and it's like, are you other girlfriend of Tom or it's kind of she's with me, not like I'm with her. So it's really, I think it's really important, healthy that she has her own thing and yes she's interior designer and undying and you know it's really proud of us, she's going great because also she needs to be pretty brave to start out because she doesn't need to like you say like we don't need the money we're fine but I have to start she puts herself out there in her position to fail and that's quite a brave thing to do and yeah thank god she doesn't feel she's doing very well but yeah it's quite brave to do that I think. Well if it's any consolordation in this household you are the handbag because if you ask my kids well who's Tom, well Tom is best fiancee, he's the guy sometimes writes bikes but finishing on on the fun part we are privy to see some pretty epic footage of you going down some crazy descents having races with mountain bikers going being chased by motorbikes and doing all these you know absolutely crazy but very cool to watch descents is that something that you see as an obligation to fulfill to you know Red Bull who's known to push limits and do these crazy footage or is that just actually a chance to live out your eight-year-old self? Probably more the eight-year-old self side of things I mean the I think that's also why I'm a Red Bull athlete I mean when it first came about like I couldn't think of anything cool it's like a you know stamp this is stamp of certification that you're a you know fucking cool athlete and then I think yeah just doing that sort of stuff I always love that stuff like rampage I always I watch all the downhill world clubs you know for example like I love that that side of things and that's the stuff that I really do enjoy the most I think getting less so as I get older I see I see more risk in everything which then obviously makes things scary or not enjoyable that yeah that it's it's living out my eight-year-old self like you say the fun stuff I would dare to beg to differ that you see less risk because you post a decent time around the nerve-oching as well you're a car you're a bit of a petrol hedge is that again is that something where you just allow yourself to be someone else I guess that's a bit of naivety in seeing the risk in that though because so far nothing's gone wrong I mean I have crashed car before but not very badly you know touch but I that's one of my superstitions that I said so far so therefore it doesn't jinx anything glad we got that one out of way I haven't crashed this year so far it's just a fact you know I do like like driving and when I have chance I do go do some track days and for our fast cars yeah I think it's a good testament to stay in it for some longevity and find different avenues I think Brad Stelberg describes it quite nicely as this identity house right that you have more rooms that you can kind of occupy not just not just being an athlete yeah I think that longevity thing is is a big thing for me and also the people around me that you know it's all well and like like I for me we've built up slowly my career you know I didn't go straight straight professional you know I I'd basically sign my professional contract when I was a junior still but I did three years on the 23 and we've taken things step by step and I think having keeping things fresh is what helps you know being able to train so hard year after year and for me like I I love training hard doing everything right but knowing that I have a week off there and I've got sometimes I do too much I have so much stuff planned of of course stuff I want to do that I can't do when I'm training that um for example the last year after the year I went to to Red Bull or into the Nurburgring I did a road trip and I had to suck off the road trip after one day in the car and my mate continued and I flew to London early as we got on to get my OBE and I had to stay there for three days I was hooked I was more tired after that week off and I was after the year yes I'm done I do too much but but it's how I work so hard that I know that I can I have this this vent and and do all this stuff when I when I have this week off and thanks for being so relatable as a champion because I think that's something that you definitely resonates with a lot of people is you play hard but you're also um yeah train hard play hard uh closing question Tom when there's the last time you went mental oh I think these these go mental questions as the stupid me up today I think it's little things on camp here you know it's little things like because because you're just in the same environment the same people it's like ah but I'm pretty sure it's got too much water in I'm going in the sauna I don't want that much water or you know why is that scale there not there or so you slamming that fucking door that's the that's uh that's for sure the most reason things all the things that bother you a lot when you train when you're riding 30 hours at a week it's yeah exactly our mental today looking back at some of your videos going and and taking some of those hairpin turns Tom honestly I really love what you guys are building and um it's so cool to get to have a little bit more of a chat uh when I wish you all the best for the rest of the season kick some bites and um thanks so much for taking an hour out of your recovery day oh it's pleasure thank you this podcast will produce fun port stars bye oh m air