Broadway has a labor issue

What's your favorite moment of Broadway magic? For me, it's seeing Audra McDonald perform Rose's Turn from Gypsy. Here she is, boys! Here she is, all! Here's Rose! I saw that show with my family in 2024, and we still talk about that performance, okay? I mean, you've got Audra in all her glory. All of her acting prowess, meeting all of her singing excellence in just this one perfect, memorable performance. Like, my husband still pulls up that performance from the Tonys on YouTube and watches it. It's that good. We are constantly trying to relive that magic. Now, what if I told you that actors, producers, directors are all sounding the alarm that they don't know if we're going to get too many more electric onstage moments like that? Actors are performing some of the most demanding shows in Broadway history, but the take-home pay isn't quite matching up. Meanwhile, producers are facing skyrocketing costs and shrinking margins, and I don't see anyone jumping for joy at how high these ticket prices have gotten. Is Broadway at the risk of taking its final bow? To understand whether or not Broadway is broken or maybe just broke, I'm here with Broadway sensitivity specialist Ann James and entertainment lawyer and Broadway producer Mark Hirschberg. Ann, Mark, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, thank you very much for having me. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. And a reminder, if you love It's Been a Minute, which from the sweet comments y'all have been leaving, it sounds like maybe you do, be sure to follow or subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app. That way you get new episodes the moment they drop. It seems like everyone on Broadway, everyone in the business, from actors to producers to even Andrew Lloyd Webber, they're saying the industry is under more pressure than ever. What has changed in the last five years? And as someone who helps Broadway cast and creative teams navigate social, cultural, or emotional dynamics, let's start with you. What's changed in the last five years? Hmm, pretty much everything. Because five years ago, we were in lockdown. Once we came out of that, we started to recognize that the old ways were no longer viable for people who actually walk out on the stage. And I had the unique experience of opening Broadway with Passover, the first play to open Broadway, up again, and the protocols that we were using just to keep crew, running crew, and actors healthy was a daunting task. I think we've come from that, and we've learned from that, but where we stretched, I think we have retracted back to old ways, and the old system just isn't viable anymore because we've changed. Mark, what have you seen change in the last five years? I think that a lot has changed. I think that the costs are different now. Behind the scenes, the production costs, the weekly operating expenses are up about a third from what they were certainly 10 years ago, and certainly over the past five years. We've seen general inflation across the board. The price of fabric and lumber is going up. That means that the sets are more expensive to build. The costumes are more expensive to fabricate. And then also, the audiences are different. You are seeing a slightly younger audience, slightly more diverse, but also, related to that, you're not seeing as suburban members of the audience anymore. So, before the pandemic in 2018, 2019, about 16% of audience members were from the suburbs, and last season it was 4.3%. So, a lot has changed, and I think that also dictates some of the art that you're seeing on stage now. We're seeing a lot more of shows, anchored by stars and dependent upon them to drive ticket sales. Yeah, trust me, that's definitely something that I have seen, especially my mom. My parents come to visit, usually somewhere around Thanksgiving time. And it's like, they want to go see, we want to see the show with Denzel in it. We want to see the show with Taraji in it. Whereas before, maybe they might do some research, asking what looks good. And they still do those things as well, but before it was a lot more driven by what sounds interesting, and what might we want to see. I just want to bring in, in fact, to one of these statistics that have been floating around about who is coming to see the shows. The average person going to see a Broadway show right now is a 40-year-old woman making over $300,000 a year. Yeah, recent audiences have gotten younger and more diverse, but the Broadway League's annual demographic report shows the typical theater goer is more than likely female, white, about 41 years old, a US resident, and a college grad whose household income, is upwards of $275,000 a year. So, do we cater to that person, or, like Mark says, do we lean into bringing in different people? And if we do bring in different people, then that particular demographic, what are we doing to attract them? Not only attract them, but to retain them. One thing that we can all agree on is that the costs of the tickets for these shows, the costs of producing them, the cost of putting them on, they have gone up. When the costs of Broadway shows go up, someone has to absorb them. Who's carrying these costs today? Is it performers? Is it producers, audiences, or all three? Well, I will speak from the artist's perspective. I think that a lot of actors and performers are feeling the weight of the lack of physical therapy, the lack of mental health support, the lack of vacation time, a lot of the weight and the pressure, and the pressure to do well financially is put upon the actors who are basically at the bottom of the triangle. We know who's at the top of the triangle, which is the owners of the space. Yeah, Mark, I'd love to hear from you on this. Who do you see absorbing the costs of these skyrocketing? Almost everyone's absorbing the costs. I think that as a result of the higher costs each week, the only lever that the producers have, have to play with are the ticket prices. There's not really any additional revenue streams on Broadway. So that results in less money being generated in profit because of the higher costs, which means that it takes longer for the shows to recoup. And what I mean is earn back their initial investments to the extent that that ever happens. As Anne sort of mentioned, the theater owners are doing well because their theaters are still fully booked and they're getting a share of the ticket prices, which are going up. So they're seeing, you know, some more money and benefiting. But everyone else, the producers and the investors are certainly struggling in the current economic state of affairs. You know, that's a serious issue. When you talk about being broken, I mean, we're kind of on a hamster wheel of saying, why isn't this working when we're applying the same pressures to the same groups of the organization that we have and not reaping the benefits? I mean, I think there's a lot to be said about that. And I think that's a big part of it. And I think there's a lot to be said about that. And what you are seeing are the shows that are recouping are "Othello" with Denzel and Jake Gyllenhaal, "Good Night and Good Luck" with George Clooney. It's those types of star-driven shows, which some producers are concerned are not really pushing the art form forward. - Well, yeah, I wanna talk about that a little bit. I mean, I'll see anything. Okay, I've had some really incredibly fun and transformative and thoughtful experiences seeing theater. But growing up, I remember that there would be like a combination of things. That would really push the envelope. And also things that were, you know, tried and true. Rogers and Hammerstein revivals like "Cinderella", but also like new musicals that could kind of like bring in the whole family. Like there was a combination. And now it feels like there's a lot of star-driven shows, whether they be plays or musicals, that are revivals of something. There's very little new black theater aside from, okay, it's not new actually. I see a lot of like star-driven productions of August Wilson plays, truthfully. And I've seen them, you know, I've seen them. And many of them have been good. But I imagine that also there are a lot of people who would love to be putting out new things or like, you know, I remember when "Wicked" came out. I don't know, like "Cats" was once a new musical and "Hadestown" was once a new musical. "Rent" was once a new musical. I feel like we're seeing fewer and fewer new shows and more and more kind of like revivals or shows that are bringing like a Hollywood person, essentially, someone from film or TV to the stage. Talk to me more about how that's connected to the sort of rising costs that we're seeing. - Audiences are becoming more selective about how they spend their time. Certainly with the pandemic, they became more comfortable just turning on Netflix and watching whatever's on there. And then, I mean, Broadway's competing against concerts and films. And so I think producers are looking for things that are recognizable and familiar to people. They're trying to mitigate their risk, and therefore they're not gravitating towards those new original musicals to the same extent as maybe they once were. They're looking more to adapt well-known film titles and create jukebox musicals. I mean, Back to the Future, Heathers, Mean Girls, like, I could go on. But interestingly, when you look at a lot of the recognizable films that have been adapted into musicals, a lot of them have not been commercially successful. No. No one wants to see something they've already seen. I mean, they think they want to see it, but these are also limited runs most of the time. You know, when we had Rent, when we had. When we had Cats, when we had shows the first time through that are not revivals, there were no stars in those shows. There was not the pull. The draw was not stardom. And I understand that, like, a healthy Broadway ecosystem, you kind of need room for both, right? But it does feel like sort of we're in a place where maybe one of these crops has overgrown. Starting in the 1970s with Grease or so and followed with The Chorus Line, there used to be hits every, like, I think the average gap was about 2.69 years. And since then, it's increased. But what's really scary for the industry is that we have not had a hit since Hamilton, which was in 2015. That's a long time. That's the longest gap ever. I mean, even if you pull out COVID, right, it is still a really long time. Yeah. And before that, you had Book of Mormon, and there was Jersey Boys, Wicked, Mamma Mia, Chicago, which was a revival, and The Lion King and Rent. It's just, it's a really scary state for the industry. Because Broadway is very much dependent upon these mega hits. These shows lift the tide for all boats, and they draw a lot of attention to the industry. They draw a lot of interest and sort of make Broadway at least part of the cultural zeitgeist for a few minutes. So until we have another hit. A few minutes in June. Yeah. Yeah. But we just really need these hits in order to survive. Yeah. And what's scary is we don't have. We don't have one. We haven't had one. And looking at the pipeline of shows coming in, I mean, hopefully Paddington will be successful. Listen, they're going to get success out of me. I'm going to tell you something, though. They're going to get some success out of me. From the videos that I've seen of the little animatronic bear, I'm like, let me see what he's doing. Coming up after the break. And we kind of have this assembly line theory of shows being cranked through. Nothing. Really making an impact like shows used to make an impact. I mean, when you say a chorus line, people gasp. Stick around. I want to go back to talking about the talent. And you've argued that the Broadway's current model asks performers to sacrifice their bodies and well-being. I mean. One of the first things that pops into my mind when I think about this is the eight show a week schedule. It's not eight days in a week. So that means people are doing two days at some point. In what ways does it happen that people are sacrificing their bodies and well-being to put on these shows? And what structures are there to keep actors safe? I think it takes a toll physically on especially heavy dance shows like Cats the Jellicle Ball, like Schmigadoon, like those big. You know. Big all-cast ensemble dance numbers. They can take a physical toll on the actors. And then that's when you start getting people calling out. That's when you see people crumbling under the pressure of that eight show week. So all of that taxes the body, mind, and spirit of the individual that's actually doing the most labor. But I think the toll that it's taking makes the retention of people who are most. I think the toll that it's taking makes the retention of people who are most seasoned really, really difficult. Someone is in their 10th to 15th year in the business, they start having families, they get pregnant, they find another passion, they start directing, they start producing. It's certainly putting a strain on what types of shows we could bring. Because if everybody is coming out of an MFA program, they've been honed, they've been trained. They haven't been financially trained on what it means. They don't know what it means to be a performer. So they don't know things like taxes, they don't know banking, they don't know investments, they don't know any of that. To put it in perspective, I think about someone like Megan Thee Stallion, right? She is somebody who a lot of her online sort of social media personality, her persona as a celebrity, is that she is athletic. She had a fitness wear collaboration with Nike a couple of years back. She is somebody whose part of her brand is working on being healthy. So doing these really athletic stadium tours, you know? And still, when she had to get on Broadway and do those eight shows a week, you know, there was a point at which she was hospitalized for extreme exhaustion. And she cut her run in the show two weeks early. We rehearsed every single day. I was like, y'all are not messing around out here on Broadway. Like, y'all are very serious about this. We only have one day off. Yeah. And this is my day off today, talking to you. But I mean, yeah, Broadway. Again, she's somebody for whom performing is not new. Touring. And performing night after night is not new. Working out a lot is not new. And again, she's done all those things as kind of like the lead performer, right? People are coming, they're buying a ticket to go see her when she goes on tour and she's touring with her music. When she went on Broadway, she was not even the main character in the show. She was not the main character in Moulin Rouge. I saw it. I saw her. I was fortunate enough to see her. But she was not the main character in Moulin Rouge. And yet, it's just, it just goes to show. That it's just a completely different type of beast. Which, I mean, I wonder though, is the problem the schedule itself? Or is it the way that Broadway has built its economics around that schedule? I'm wondering, Mark, do you have any insight on that? So, I mean, we've had eight shows a week for decades. And that's the maximum that the unions will permit. There are some exceptions made around the holidays when some shows do like nine show weeks. Gosh. I think to an extent, it is. There's always a way to like maximize the revenues each week for the shows. I mean, the more shows there are, the more money comes in the door. So, I think economics certainly drive the decision. There are some shows which have decided to go for seven shows a week recently. And then you have a situation in certain shows where the lead performers have alternates. Yeah, with Mandy Gonzalez filled in for Nicole Scherzinger. Yes. On Sunset Boulevard. And then also with Funny Girl, Lea Michele did seven shows. And then Julie Benko went on first in other performances. So, there are variations. But in those situations, you really need a show that's strong enough to support that economically. I, you know, in a pre-interview with our producer, Corey Antonio, you drew a parallel between Broadway and the Ford assembly line model. I would love for you to tease that out a little bit more here. Yeah, I mean, historically, vaudeville, burlesque, all of that, that turn-of-the-century kind of artistic development in our larger cities came from the Industrial Revolution model. So, you have someone in the lead at the top, which would be actually the real estate owner, who then determines and decides how things will flow. And the people on the bottom who happen to be our technicians and our actors, our performers, even our creatives, our designers, our directors, everybody at that level just keeps the fires burning. They keep putting coal in the machine, but they're getting very little return on the effort that they're putting out. And I really feel like it's time for a renaissance. We have to find a better way to oil the machine than expecting all the labor to fall on people who are at the bottom of the foundation. So, that was my correlation between, you know, Henry Ford and the assembly line. We kind of, you know, we kind of, you know, we kind of, you know, we kind of have this assembly line theory of shows being cranked through, nothing really making an impact like shows used to make an impact. I mean, when you say a chorus line, people gasp, kiss the day goodbye, you know, hello 13. I mean, the shows are not, they don't have as much impact. And I don't know why, maybe because they're fleeting and because we are a celebrity culture. Or because audiences don't appreciate a career in the theater as opposed to, oh, well, I'm just seeing you for this two and a half hours. I don't, I don't think we have translated what it means to be a theater dog or, you know, a triple threat or whatever the currency that used to have. It just doesn't have the currency now. Well, I mean, I feel like what you're talking about is kind of like an industry-wide strategy where, you know, the money gets tight and it feels like everybody has to do just a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more often for the money. the same pay, sometimes for less. And it's something that we see across industries. It's not just entertainment, but like manufacturing, education, journalism, you know, the dynamic you're describing isn't just a Broadway specific thing. It's kind of like an American thing that we're seeing across the labor force. What would need to change to create a healthier future for artists and for audiences? It would be wonderful to take some of the financial pressure. I don't know whether it's the relationship between producers and theater owners, if it's an injection of funds from the government, you know, whether it be city government, state government, federal government to help. I mean, certainly we have money. Certainly the money is there. We're spending it all over the place, but the arts have not reaped the benefit of the growth in our economy. Just have to make sure that we are subsidizing artists and helping the producers not have to lean on the investors and then say, oops, I'm sorry, I lost your $250,000 and the money of your friends again, and have the owners of the theaters be going, okay, who's next? Who wants to lose their money next? Which is what it feels like is happening. Yeah. I mean, I think in terms of the next 10 years, I think we're going to continue to see the acceleration of the current trends. I think we're going to see more, I think we're going to see more of the producers trying to create these events built around stars, familiar IP. I think that the producers and their investors are trying to mitigate their risk as much as possible and gravitating towards what they perceive to be short bets. And those are the projects right now that are finding financial success, irrespective of the art. Oh my gosh. I'm really grateful that I got to have this conversation with the two of you today. I have learned so much. Much. Mark, Anne, thank you both so much. Thank you very much for having me. Thanks so much. This has been great. That was Broadway sensitivity specialist Anne James and Mark Hirshberg, entertainment lawyer and Broadway producer. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Antonio Rose. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Cher Vincent. Our executive producer is Barton Girdwood. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.