Brilliant Boks and Six Nations Stateside?

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For the few coaches, Eddie, according to your book. Still selling well, I still have the best work we've ever done. But knife, knife, knife. Yeah, still available. I actually had some kid come up to me the day, so he just bought it. Which is great. Just keep those sales coming in. He's good. Who was my greatest rival? My best, my best, most enjoyable rivalry in a club form would have to be, it would have to be Saris. Although we didn't enjoy the large majority of the matches, but when you then did finally get a win against them, it felt like the biggest amount of pride, because you're overcoming a lot of factors when you play against them, boys. See, Dave? You've interviewed millions of people, but the ones where you know I have to be hyper focused in order for this to be a functional interview. So I think it was probably Marla. Okay. And then Marla handed the baton to Genge. But then Genge is that really good to interview. There's a period at the start of his career, maybe it's a bit trickier. So I remember texting Marla once saying, you've handed your baton, because I said something to Genge, like, oh, he said 10 caps now. He's like, oh, have you not done any, yeah, how did you not know kind of thing? Well, I just sort of be conversational for, yeah, probably Marla to Genge. But then maybe Genge can hand the baton somewhere else. So if you're a young England player, and you want to get the tag of trickiest interview, it's probably there to be grabbed. You weeks domestically would be Saris. Actually wasps. I thought you would, I thought you asked my individuals. That was, that was the, that was the question. And then you could be like, Brian and Banner or something. Um, I don't know. Okay, good one. Rob, you know, weekly, got loads to get through. Got to talk about Paddy's wedding, which is this Friday. Yeah, Paddy's tag, which happened last weekend. What? Good to see you. Good to see you guys there. Conor O'Shea reactions. Where was that? Big interview with Conor O'Shea. All the reactions to that, RGR review. So you could touch upon the red roses up in action, WXV. Six nations to America. With you, good morning, Chris Jones, Danny Kerr. I'm rubbing a weekly. Rugby Union weekly from BBC Sport and BBC Radio 5 Live. Sorry, obviously Paddy would delight it for you and the wedding is this Friday. Are you, are you going on Friday? Yeah, we'll be there on Friday. Well, we'll hang on, but what happened with the tag? It's just a, it was just a few of us. Uh, we did a couple of the balleriks. So not just I'd be, but it also just landed on a couple of others. This is the first time I'm hearing of it as well. This is a recurring theme on the box. You didn't come to my stack. Maybe put it in front of you guys, something. Yeah, we, I would have come with too much fun, thank you. Yeah, it'd be too much. Hock the limelight. No, I'm joking. I didn't get invited, nor did Hixie. Nor did anyone. Paddy kept it tight. How many were on the stack? Pad? Nine. Nine fingers up. Yeah, nine. Thoughts on just being invited to the evening part of the wedding. Disappointed. I think the registry office is just close close friends and family. So it's just a few of us there. Yeah, well, that's exactly the point. Close friends and family. We're here every Monday. It's a big news tea. When you get the, the shout to the still even really the after pie, isn't it? We were here. We were here day one. We were here day one, okay. Oh, wait, this is way before I'm going to the wedding. Okay, cool. Yeah, Friday night. That's where we'll be. DC, listen to the connoisseur, Pod. I did. You're in the rest of the rugby world. I did. I thought it was an exclusive. It was brilliant to hear that much level of detail from someone really high up at the RFU. Something you don't really normally get. I thought he's very open, very honest. Am I surprised by the contract extension of the coaches? No, I think all the rationale is absolutely right. But I still think everybody knows that it kind of doesn't mean an awful lot, because everything's going to be judged on the performance of the World Cup. If the World Cup goes really well, then yes. I think you can see those coaches continue, but if it doesn't, then history would tell us that if you don't do well in a World Cup, that's where everybody looks to change and start a new regime. But obviously, Conno and Euges could spend a lot of time together. It's great to hear from him. He is the most positive man in the world, which I don't imagine if there is any feedback and it's negative, it will be towards cynicism, maybe, how can you be this positive? Yes, keeping these perspective, then there's being. But he just contextualised it with how amazing the results were, not so long ago, with the 12 in a row. So, like we've said, I think a long time in this pod, you've got to say it's rough for the smooth a little bit. And I still think England are going to be right up there, semi-finalist, potential finalist, to come the World Cup. So then, what do you do then with the coaches? It's interesting, because I had some feedback about the podcast, and some people say that Conno was Uber positive, ultra-positive. If and when you get to know him, you'll understand, he wasn't being ultra-positive just because he was trying to become the antidote for some of the negative noise that had been surrounding the team for a little bit, that's just how he is. I remember the first of the game he did at Harlequin's, came into the changing room, and we were getting prepared for it. I forgot what premiership match it would have been. And he walked in and was like, "Guys, I don't care if you win or lose today." And I was like, "Who on earth employed this joker?" He doesn't even get. It's like, "I just care that you stick to X, Y and Z, just become yourselves." And then you start to understand the things that really drive him. He tries to take pressure off teams, take pressure off individuals, and only just narrate and just focus on the things that really matter. That gives you the results. So as I mentioned, loads and loads of reactions, obviously, if you picked up loads of places, and we've been in the data by messengers, I'm going to just read a few out because there's a balance and it's touch upon a few of the points you guys have made. Ed loved Conno as a quince fan and always found his positivity infectious, but felt his narrative is too upbeat. Yes, we have the players, but do we have the coaches? The extensions are immaterial as well. As you're saying, Danny, they will all be removed with the immediate effect if we have a poor world cup. I think fans want more honesty and not positive sound bites. Look at Rassy when South Africa lose. He says it how it is. That aside thought it was a really good interview. Jonathan O'Shea comes across "honest or serious" passionate. Neil says really interesting. Portable Conno, O'Shea, refreshing to hear, someone answering questions like that. Seems the gaming is in safe hands. Tom enjoyed the Conno's interview. Seems nice and intelligent person. Gave me an impression of a muddled thinking and a lack of strategy. And T.P. says four years of Object Six Nations failure. Then a rugby world cup final is a poor return. It blows my mind that would be accepted. Then it goes on to the next six nations. And we're rebuilding narrative. I thought O'Shea lumping the red roses in to say, one goal, two silvers and a bronze was insane. Fundamentally, England men don't win things and coming top three doesn't count as winning. Yes, he did say you had no idea where your bronze medal is. I've got no idea where my bronze medal from the world cup is. It isn't one of those things that I am. I mean, I am proud of the fact that we went far in the competition, but ultimately we didn't come away with the goal that we wanted. We didn't get into the final. Didn't have a shot at winning the world cup. So yeah, that is again, how could I, because he is such a positive man, would spin that. Would be like, Jamie, I don't know if anybody else has ever come third second and first in the world cup. Is that a thing that would fire the lads up? I'm not entirely sure. But I go back to the Conner's positivity, or back up everything he said, like, and why that worked? Because it wasn't like, you've heard that before from coaches being like, it doesn't matter about the result. And they're three weeks later. It's like, right, we need some results now. You go, no, no, no. What Conner did was he had a sort of two, three, four year plan of, this is the way we're going to be. This is what's going to breed the most success. And we're going to end up getting there. So my point being, he didn't, he doesn't flip flop from his ideologies. And I think England need a bit of structure now. They need a bit of stability. And we've now got that. So everyone now can stop talking, saying, right, if England lose the next game, [BLANK_AUDIO] start throwing new coaches name out there and let's get the coaches out. That's not going to happen. So everyone needs to get on board with this is the way England are going to be going. This is really going to go down. Yes, performances need to be better. Players need to be better. Coaches need to coach better. But still I go back to it. I still think England have got a great chance of winning the Six Nations this year. Three home games. You've got to make that count. And if you can nick one of those, one of those away wins. You give yourself a massive, massive chance. And then going back to again, the World Cup. I know we're looking too far ahead. Eighteen from that right inside of the draw has got a huge chance of winning the World Cup purely because you're going to miss out some three of the biggest names in the world. It would be right now. So one team who gets that right over the next 12 months will find themselves in a World Cup final. And then you never know. And everyone's still there going. Well, Steve Boyle is a genius. Why could I just mention just on the Gold, Silver and Bronze thing? I don't think. I think I understand what Colin is saying. And I'm not going to be hyper focused on the colour of those medals. It's not about that. I think the point is trying to prove is or at least make is that they've been there with theirabouts. And that's consistency. And that's what they want to build upon. So I don't think he's celebrating all this bronze medal. Look how great that is. But over the last four World Cup men and women, we have been there all theirabouts. Yeah, and I get that. I suppose. And I'm not a bin of color. I think I think the fact that England men, I do think lumping in the men and women together is it's, but that's his remit. That's what he watches. No, that's what he's speaking of. But but Red Rose's fans, if they'd lost that final, aren't going to be comforted if the men were doing well and vice versa. But he's speaking as I know. And I kind of understand where he's coming from as an umbrella overlooking the whole of the both of the two programs. But you can't lump them in together. Like when they did that report and they blended an average of win percentage. So like, England men could be at 50% England women at 100%. Oh, it's a 75% that's just as the guy as the TP says that's insane. But you know, that's the kind of what you would perhaps go to if you were at the RFU and you did have that remit. I suppose where the whole England men's performance does detract from getting into the final week of those two world cups in 1923, is the fact that six nations record has been so poor. And I just don't think England, I think England fans would take a world cup victory and constant six nations flops. But another semi-final and out, or dare I say a final and out, I still think you chuck a grand slammer of couple of six nations titles in there. Do you think say one semi-final then makes up for four years of six nations under performance or losing the first on the opening weekend constantly as they did quite a lot recently? No, I don't. And we've talked about a lot on it. I don't like the fact that we all look ahead to the world cup and go, well, let's just judge it on the world cup. Like, some of my only one team can win it. Yeah. Some of my greatest memories and I think the best tournament still in rugby is the six nations. And some of my best memories of the player is winning that, representing your country, going to all these amazing places, going away from home in hostile environments, going to Paris, going to Rome and scrapping for a win. They're the greatest memories for me. That's what for me growing up watching England rugby was the six nations. The world cup comes around every four years, you go great, but to represent your team, your country, where you've grown, where you've been born and those, and know how much it means to those fans in the six nations. And like, that feeling of lifting the trophy at the end of it is something so, so incredibly unique. So for me, no, it isn't acceptable that England finished four for fifth in a six nation. I think it's acceptable to finish third. If you're an England player, we should be finished in second first. I'm annoyed at myself when I look back at my career thinking I should have won four or five easily. And we as a group had the ability to win. You don't get that time back, unfortunately, but these, these lads, and I'll say it again, the players have got to take a lot of this ownership as well. I know everyone's looking at coaches and looking above, but the performances that we saw the last nine, 12 months, the players, and I know they're not happy with themselves about. And they're like, again, I'll say it, the last time I checked there, the lads that can make a decision on a pitch, they see an opportunity to run and you've got to put the ball in front of someone at pressure and test match intensity. You've got to do it. And they will have learnt an awful lot about themselves. I think it puts them in better stead, coming forward into this nation's championship in November, and then obviously six nations. And we have to see a bit of more fight from these England players, I think. So I agree with you, Danny, but I can only start judging the players when they have a game plan that actually allows them to show the best version of themselves. So I want to look at France at the end of the six nations. I'm like, I can fully judge the players based upon that because that's a game plan, the Italy game. That was just wildly disappointing, but also the game plan wasn't there to bring the best out of the players. Was the Scotland game, was the Ireland game, but before we get to six nations or the rest of it, there's autumn and we spoke to Conor about it. It couldn't be any more critical that all Blacks game is massive, but the defining one is the Australia game. You lose against Australia. God forbid, non-negotiable, just have to win. We know where the all Blacks are. They went toe to toe with the South African, we'll talk about us here shortly. And then you're going to have the finals weekend. We have not a clue who England are going to play. They've got to win the Australia game. They have to win whoever they play against that finals weekend. And then the all Blacks game, from what we've just seen, and it's like recently, by us, they're looking pretty pretty good at the moment, aren't they? Yeah, 100%. I think it's that from what we hear, and we spoke to players, private and public, it just felt that whole tour in the summer was a bit fraught, wasn't it? Not helped by the travel, you know, they paid some good rugby, they paid some average rugby. This slim has done a problem. It just feels it's in a bit of a crossroads with this England team, and autumn will be quite decisive to see where the players and the coaches are really on the same page. Let's talk, then rugby's greatest rivalry series box winning in Baltimore, wrapping up the series three, one lost the first, one the next three. They were pretty, that what I felt going into that game. Do you know what, the all Blacks made some massive strides and they still have, but it was kind of the bits we worried about in New Zealand. More of them came out in Baltimore, and the bits we thought were very strong about. So I've got more of them came out with the fact they're running the ball from the kickoff and things like that. Still the team to beat? Yeah, without a doubt. And when your ball would be down, if you can't live with the team physically, if you can't live with the team with their set piece, you're going to really, really struggle. It's going to take a unbelievable performance with ball in hand from the scraps that you're trying to play off to beat a team like Sarah Africa. And I think this week in America, especially, they just went right, well, let's just take it back to what we are, the best at our most brutal selves. And you look at the front row of the Hawks, Malcolm Marks and Vilko Lowe, you've got three enormous human beings that know exactly how to punish you. Well, that, that more where they ran 10 or 15 meters to, to Trump again, over the light. And I absolutely stand by my statement of I'm loving seeing the all Blacks being back. And I've covered that with imagine how good they could be if they could sort the set piece out because they're going to have to sort the set piece out if they're going to want to compete. And their aerial game. When you say sort the set piece and aerial game, I'm not sure they have to sort it out. They have to sort it against the very best of a generation, but against England, against Australia, against France, I think they're set piece. It's Africa's Mall and Liner, a lineup, Mall and Scrum. It's so much better than what else is. Well, of course, there's no one like you can have anyone like France, I've got a really good set piece. England last six nations had the best set piece and they struggled, but so we're not going to analyse England against South Africa, England got sort of set piece out. I think it's quite a tough examination. All Blacks will want to get better, but no, if they want to win a World Cup, they have to be better still. But South Africa is still just operating on a slightly different level, again, aren't they? Like the amount of times, a box kick is a box kick right, and Danny, you put so many in the money for so many years, but how many times in South Africa can just claim it out of here? It's obscene. And a point Neil, our correspondent who mentioned about the Conor and Shadepop, but also as a South African fan, as a few things say about the box, looking used to coming through Van Der Berg, Divilliers, Hanukom. Hanukom. How he manages to, I think, blend those senior players, who will be on their last legs come as 2027, and that's just inevitable. For a lot of them, maybe Calisi, Peter Steff, maybe it's the best, that will be their last World Cup. How many matches are those guys playing? Well, no, that's the thing, isn't it? They've managed true, particularly with Peter Steff, he doesn't play any domestic rugby. He's always injured or unavailable, and then just smashed it for the box. If you think for someone like Peter Steff, he might only have to play 10 games before now on the World Cup. Top. Which, as an athlete, you'd be like, Yeah, I can do that. I can only do only 10 games of rugby. I mean, how many games did he play last year for not? Well, he didn't have an African team. He basically didn't play any rugby. He's one of the only human beings I know that can play in such combative position. Basically, no rugby come in and just play four, four, 80 minutes in different positions. Erwin, let's have just said, what, five months out with a band? Yeah. So, like, they find ways of their players preserving themselves because the end goal is, yeah, triple, triple threat. We go back to back to back and win another World Cup. And whether you like it or not, Razzie has the power to do that. George's office. Yeah. You know, when he fails his medical to get that job, and they go, are you saying you cheated medical science? It's like, Eben, did you say you deliberately gouge someone to get five months out? I'm not saying either, but it's one of those things to be like, it's worked out very nicely for him. I said it. I said it, and I got in trouble for it. And I said, like, the best thing to happen to Eben is like, he'll have five months off now. Like, it's amazing. It's amazing. Of course, it's a situation that wouldn't want to follow themselves in. But one of my takeaways from watching rugby's greatest rivalry is, and why I'm excited about England is, in terms of things that England sort of, and South Africa are so good at, I think, England can match. This year, we'll get our depth back in the front row. We'll steer it back from his Achilles injury, Finn backs his back from his injury. So we can now potentially see the POM squad come back. So you can have a front row of Jamie George, Joe Hayes, Ellis Gench, and then you've got Finn backs, the Will Steuer, and Luke Howard Dickie. That is top tier across 80 minutes. That was such a feature for England when they went on their run. The other thing I was thinking about is, Andre S. The Hazen, and how they molded him into this hybrid player that is just unreal. He does everything he needs to do as a forward, and a back row forward, but players are center. I think Henry Pollock is there, Andre S. The Hazen. I really do. He's a destructive, big ball carrier. In those wide channels, he behaves like any centre, converts three on two's, Rome's, he does all of that. He is a brilliant utility player. And I think Andre, the depth he's given to Africa, we have that in Henry Pollock. So there are a few different things. Well, I'm looking at England and how we can chase the number one side in the world. And we do tick some of those boxes, set peace, function, so brilliant. Well, I look at our second row. Mauro, Ellis Coles, George Martin, Ollie Chess, I'm thinking. I had not sure, because I think we're still in this position of how to beat South Africa, and I say we, I mean, like the rest of the rugby world. England's game plan, you worry, is just going to be South Africa, but not quite as good. So not quite as good in the air again, not quite as good in the set peace, not quite as good in the mall. Just talking about personal game plan is like, by the way, the game plan brings the very best at the play. We've got players. Wasn't the thing that was the most kind of revelatory about this series was for the first time. I can pretty much remember a team beat the sprint ball, but it's consistently across four matches. Scotland did it like once in Marseille and got outside them and then Darcy couldn't quite link. I can think of so few examples of teams playing in South Africa where they could beat through their sheer speed of hand and, you know, they're running lines, get outside the sprint ball defense, and you did it all the time. But we chatted about this last week, but when you've got Rubenlove passing to Jordy Barrett, passing to Damon McKenzie with World Jordan finishing, not many backlines have three world-class ball players that can stretch the pitch, as wide as they could to be able to beat them. So if we look at England or if you look at France, France will have Inter Michael Jalabair at night at 10, and then you'll have Tomas Ramos. So there's your pivot. Scotland will have thin Russell Blair Kinghorn. So you've got two. The All Blacks have three. They've got three ball players right across their backline, and the extra pair of hands just gives you a safety of security to be able to just push it that much further, hence why they can probably play from a bit deeper. So the All Blacks, I think, they're just a slightly different beast. I think Scotland showed as well. England didn't show it in South Africa, missed opportunity. Scotland went the week after against a rested second string, Spring got side, but with two pelota in the midfield as well, they did have, and they did show that you can go and attack South Africa and beat the ball its defense. And then New Zealand are the first team that have gone and done it and found themselves a win, which rugby is 100% a copycat sport. I've lost count the amount of tyres as a young England player. I'd be like, "Right, New Zealand are doing it like this, so we're going to do it like this." That is now South Africa, and it has been for the last eight years. So, but teams seeing how South Africa got beaten, like that's the blueprint. So you have to somehow get some set piece against them, which I believe few teams in the World Cup. I think England can, I think France can. Scotland showed that they can for a little bit, but then you've got to be brave enough, and the golden goose, the golden egg is marrying them both, getting set piece dominance, but then being brave enough to go and execute, and then executing. And as Oog said, New Zealand have got world class players to go and do that. Looking at the England's backline at the minute, I think they've got world class tens. I think if George Furbank can stay fit, you've got a world class 15. I'm looking at the centres thinking, are we light there? Well, they still don't know who their centre pairing is, which is still a worry for me, because you've got to get that nailed down. There's got to be that link. If you've got to go past, past, past, to get it wide, they have to be on the focus. Remember, they matter times George Furbank passed the Owen Farrell, Owen Farrell would hit Elliot daily or Mike Brown, because you've got two great passes. Whereas if you've got one good pass to the midfield, and the midfield then can't distribute on the money at the highest intensity, you're not going to beat South Africa. So for me, that is the golden goose, and if you look at England, that would be what I'd be challenging the attack of this year, is how do we create chaos and feed favourables and feed freemen with front football? That's why South Africa are different, because you get so many nations that have to double down in one air of the game. Say it's set piece, because we know that's massive, that's the bedrock, that's the foundation of anything. The other bit I like to that would be the aerial game. South Africa do that in this league, that's just what they consistently do, that's what they're greater. Other teams are chasing, that's how they put so much focus into that. But then they neglect or may not be able to compensate or have the same level as like attacking tent. South Africa have just got a generation or players. There was no Chessland Colby the weekend, but currently, I answer. Where are you finding these types of players that are literally the antithesis to everything that you set your game upon? It's got nothing to do with set piece, it's got nothing to do with moorling or aerial game. But to be able to tear teams up from 60 meters, Damon Villams are the same, Chessland went his back. That's why they are such a complete team, because they have got magic at their disposal without ever neglecting the bedrock moments of the game. Yeah, it's kind of a series that left us feeling like really encouraged about just the whole global game, but also the nagging feeling that South Africa having been asked loads of questions, and they did lose a test match, and that's something to be to be, you know, latched upon by the all blacks and by everyone else, but they still ended up winning 3-1, didn't they? And probably cementing their status. New Zealand showed you can attack them, New Zealand showed you can stretch them, but you've got to find an answer for this scrum, this moor, this aerial game, which they're still doing so much better than everyone else. And I think the beauty for South Africa and for Razi and his coaches, what they're looking at is the thing that they possess the ability to be anyone with their super strength. No one else has that. So in there, when they're pulling out their top trumps, they go, set peace. And that scrum has, like, it's like a double top trump during the World Cup knockout stage. It's like a gold one. Where everyone tends to start, refs tends to start. Yeah, and the game, because how many times in this series did the game slow down in the final quarter? A lot of time because South Africa are doing that, but tight games do slow down in the final quarter. So the scrum becomes even bigger. Yeah, they don't have to worry about having, I mean, they've got them anyway, but they don't have to worry so much about having three or four ball players in the back line, because they've got the ultimate top trump that goes, here's our scrum, here's our moor, stop that. And the amount of penalties that would give to them create possession, sorry, feel position, to then create opportunities to score. So everyone else has got to work so much harder to try and get the opportunities to live with them at set peace, to live with them upfront, and then be so on the money with their attack. Whereas South Africa could probably play at 75% attack wise, but if they're forwards, go to work and their set pieces on top. You physically. Is that what Dave Rene has done when he's done this series, who's by trying to plant something about their scrummaging technique? Because someone's got to do something about this spring box grums. Yeah, he tried it, but it's totally an utterly relevant to talk about in press conference and then get ping to ping to ping to the next match, the next two matches. you can say what you want, but if the pitch is which you're physically seeing on the pitch, don't marry what you're saying on a Thursday in some random hotel in Soweto, then it really doesn't matter. I think it's remarkable that South Africa is doing, and everyone at the moment is still chasing to try and catch up with the 2026 version of South Africa were for Rassie and South Africa, they've completed 2026, they're ready to focus on the next year, they're going to pivot and do something different. Just one question's come in from Alistair, there's a debate here about the branding of rugby's greatest rivalry, is it really its numbers one and two against each other, but does it have the nickel of Scotland England or Wales England, love to the thoughts of the pod on this? It is the greatest rivalry, but several World Cup's between them, like they're the two greatest rugby nation on the planet, but then you kind of look at there's so many different parts to it, are they the two most sellable rugby products in the world? I think so. I think England come into that, but then would the game be as. Not as a brand though, most people don't warm to the England, but the spring box and the all blacks as a brand are far more marketable than. I'm not sure. England get as many column inches, I don't know, and there's been some incredible coverage over the last four weeks, but you put England into the mix with our media army and size, and you get a lot of column inches, you get a lot of chat around it, but would the game be as competitive if you had a format series England against Africa? So who would England play in their greatest rivalry series? Okay, I'll do a quick fire, yeah, and then we'll do the other home nations. Who would England play if they would do a greatest. If they were to basically do what the box and the all blacks have done, sack it in the six nations and just set up a four test series against one team, I've got mine in mind with a quick fire. Who would England's greatest rivalry? Greatest rivalry. Yeah, I mean, if you go on a history, it'd be Scotland, the Calcutta Cup dates back a long way, but it does. But then you'd go currently where are they out to get the best series? I think you'd have to go Scotland, because England rebatter Wales four times in a row. That's it, you couldn't have that. England, Ireland would be closer, but I think right now, I mean, I'd love to go and see an England Scotland four way. Yeah, shoot out, where would you go for? I think if you were to historically, it's difficult, but probably say France. If they were to do a greatest rivalry series and they were trying to maximise the commercial reach of it, as well as having four great test matches, and our France would probably win that series three, one, wouldn't they? But you'd probably say England, France, Scotland would be against England, but the thing is, that's the six nations for you. If Scotland were to choose England, Wales would choose England and Ireland would choose England. Wales would choose Italy. Well, I mean, Wales, I think, would you say, about the peak of the Joe Schmidtby war in England? Wales and Ireland. If you'd sort of go in backs with 2015 kind of time, 2013, 2014, 2015, that was a really good rivalry, wasn't it? Wouldn't it? But that's the thing that the six nations would never do what the all blacks and spring mocks have done. No England and France, or England who were for France, whoever would never rip it up like they've done, but that's probably because there's not the sort of imbalance. Don't have the time, mate. Do you know the top 14 started to do it? Do you think they would have sold out that stadium if it had been England, Scotland in Baltimore? Or do you think the lure of the all blacks and the South Africans? The stadium was selling out regardless, even if they had to gift 20 or 30,000 tickets. Because the reality is you have to check these boxes, you have to almost, whether it's factually correct or not, you have to prove that it works. I mean, it's been brilliant. You can see the amount of legends they flew out there as well, Portia Woodman's, Dan Carter's, whole host of South Africans doing stuff every single day, whether it be working with NFL teams, you see some of the lads here, Kalice was at the US Open Final last night. There was a lot of activity and they're planting it, and I guess the leaders on to the conversation about six nations, all the rest of it. But I don't know, first thing is, like, just sort the technical elements of broadcast out. Oh, I don't know, referees. The game was so well and then it's 10 minute one. Second time, second time. Remember it happened last year, where it just couldn't get the. But I mean, I don't know if it was maybe my TV, but it was like stuttering every single phase. It looked like it was you were swatching it. That might be the fasting, mate. That's six five. My sky, my sky, I think that was five. It's a pretty broad budget. It didn't feel right to me watching it. I've got to get that right. If they're trying. You go raise the point about Alan Gilpin, the boss of World Rugby talking about a six nations game in America, World Rugby R determines the point of obsessed with trying to crack America here. 250 million US dollars is going into trying to crack America with that World Cup in 31, and the women's World Cup in 33 in mind, but yeah, basics like that need to be sharpened up, don't they? Gotta get your basics right, mate. The basics of football, mate. Yeah. Basics on and off the field. What do you think about the six nations? I mean, I was on the radio well's phone in the next day after these quotes, because immediately people are going, "Oh, this is. How can you do this?" I think this is very much a World Rugby idea, a World Rugby theory that would have to be approved by the six nations and by the individual union. So I think it's miles off potentially happening. Italy, the island is the game that be most likely for it to happen. Italy, Ireland. Well, I think Italy would be the most likely. Oh, no, no, I was just making sure I heard what you said. Yeah, because you don't think it would bang at all. No, no, no, no, not at all. Like, Ireland in America, that's not the first time it's happened. So I totally get that. They have unbelievable traveling support. They have unbelievable local support if they went if they went to America. Italy aren't going to contribute a huge amount in terms of like traveling fans and support. But I think any six nations game in America will work because it has to work. There's no way you can pick up a match from the Aviva Stadium, take it to America and for it not to sell out or a bit of 50% capacity. And it's all about the World Cup 31 and 33. My thing is, and like, I want it to be successful, the Americans are still getting their head around football. We mentioned this, didn't we? Just last week. And that's with the greatest player of maybe of all time, Lino Messi, who plays in their domestic league. So we have to make an effort in order for the World Cup to be success by microdose and rugby to them. So why wouldn't we give an understand that opposition to this? Why don't we give up some of the greatest tournament ever to America for them to feel and understand exactly what it is? So yeah, this will be something that needs to be fed to the Americans. I mean, the cynics would say, and even not the cynics, John Mitchell, who's got experience of coaching in the States, said the other day, he questioned whether rugby will ever crack America because you've got such a crowded landscape. They have their seasons perfectly structured, so there's no overlap. And people have their college football, their high school football, their NFL, their NHL, whatever it might be, they have what they follow and there's not a huge amount of room for a new sport to come in. I think if you're the six nations, this is the golden goose, isn't it? Of all the things that don't really work in rugby, the logistical challenges that rugby faces when it comes to the URC, when it comes to the nation's championship, when it comes to finances in the game, the one thing that works consistently is the six nations. So you have to really, really careful not to kill that golden goose. It would have to be a one-off, but then the question, if you are going to do a one-off game, what impact will that really make in the States? Yeah. And you can't imagine an England or an Ireland or a Wales would want to lose the revenue of a home game to go away from home, and you seem like, yeah, yeah, well, we could do that. They would be compensated. And they would have confirmed they need to contract for an hour. But I think the idea in general can only be a good one. It can only be a positive one to grow rugby, to make it bigger, to show some eyeballs. As you said, how many people have said there's a sleeping giant over in America? We just haven't cracked it. No one's worked out yet how to crack it. You know, the USA have been put under the spotlight a little bit to say, sort your team out, sort your infrastructure out there, men's and women's game, to show your country what you can do. So I'll be challenging them more to say that is the way to do it. We got then as a whole of rugby, grow it in terms of taking a massive game over there. So a Six Nations game could be brilliant to show it if it works and if it's marketed and it's sold well. If it isn't, and it's a bit of a damp squid, then it's a bit of a waste of time in my opinion. I think you touched upon something really important. Let's not forget England played in American last year in Washington, barely made an impact. So these things can't just be outliers. They can't just be a once a year. I think you've actually got to have a level of consistency. But then it's trying to fund the fixtures to schedule in the logistics. All of that needs to work. But the most important thing, and you've just mentioned there, but the Americans need to invest in their own, in their own national team. Americans love winning teams. And the World Cup could be there in 31 as well as 33, but if the Americans are getting pumped and don't make out a group, you need the host to go well. The whole thing literally burst a bubble. We felt it in France in 23. What a tournament, then France leave, and it's not pop. And then flip that. Flip that. I know the Japan. But I know they've got not out of the same stage of tournaments. I hope this point doesn't contradict it, but how good was that when Japan never been to qualify? It never been to qualify. It didn't feel like the bubble was burst. It was a bonus bubble. Of course. So Americans need to sort their own stuff out. So we can do everything we can do. When I say, we, I'm talking about a wild rugby six nations, we can take games out there. But if you're not investing into a team that might be successful in a few years, then it's for nothing. Well, with that in mind, I know it's seven, so it's different part of the sport, but they want to bronze the women's team in 24 28 LA Olympics. This is all kind of shot window stuff. But you're right, guys, 31. If the USA Eagles aren't a thing, then that's that tournament. It's still going to, that tournament will work in the States. The infrastructure is too good. The best stadiums are too good, but it's just I imagine how good it could be. But I hear so much behind the scenes from administrators who are torn because they want to crack America, but part of them are worried that that will just never happen. Although I do think the World Cup over there might just be the best one. Yeah, I still still think that, but I imagine how good it could be if over the next few years, what they've got five years now, rugby's everywhere. And I think that's what, that's what they do. That's what World Rugby trying to do. Yeah, they're trying to take a game, take two games over there. Yeah. I think if you looked at some in the eye, World Rugby said, do you think rugby will crack America long-term? They might say no, but do you think you can have a Bang and World Cup in 31? Yeah. And they'll say, yeah, this is what we're doing. This quarter billion dollars four to make that 31 a huge, huge success. We should take the pod. We should go out there. So you think if we sort of drip the pod into the American psyche before 31, it would make a bit of sense. So what trip a year? I think if you got a good program, that's just out there. They tried that. I didn't really work, but we could take a few pods out there. Yeah, it did work. It's just we had one of these. Yeah. Like, let's, okay, I'll give you a really good example of how the NFL does. NFL, a twin of NFL UK. And the month of October, they come over here and they'll have three or four matches. They'll go and have one in Paris. They'll have one in Germany. And they go on, they go on a European tour. So it's not just the one game. It's like back to back to back. I know that happens. That's happening next month. And their visibility. They'll twin. They'll do loads in the community. So they stay that we don't just fly out on a Tuesday, go to a couple of schools, go on a couple of radio shows, maybe head on Jimmy Fallon, play the match on Saturday, and we gone. This is the pod or the place. This is rugby. Okay. And we gone five days later. The NFL, when they come here, they're here for a month and they make a racket. And it's brilliant. And now hundreds of millions. They do make hundreds of millions. But then you have to view money in a slightly different way. Whilst people say it's a cost, it's an investment to have. There was nothing against this country. America sports always been rampantly commercial. These franchise teams. Yeah. You know, I used to support the San Diego Chargers, doesn't exist anymore. When Wimbledon became an MVP, Don's it was the biggest, you know, disgracing football history. We're a different cultural sporting country. If you said to our long suffering and very, very loyal Prem rugby season ticket holders, you get nine home games a year, only nine because the league should small now. Oh, and by the way, two of them are going to be in the States because we're going on a tour. It's just and a couple of them you are of your best players playing. Yeah. So you're going to miss before before the autumn, after the autumn, you're going to miss a couple of players rested before six nations, after six nations, maybe a couple of other mandatory rests. Oh, by the way, this period in October, we're going to the States. No, I'm not. I'm not suggesting. I'm just saying it. I just say it. I understand it by comparing it. America football. If we had anything to what they do in America, is that was a chance at finals. Well, that will happen. That will happen in 29 or 30. I think 28 might happen. What happened? You may be. Okay. I think there was plans for that. But then I think it's going to be 2030 then a year before the World Cup, nation championship finals weekend. Yeah. But once again, you're having one weekend of incredible rugby, which would be fantastic. But then what do you do from November through to the following September? You have to, you can't just, this is not boxing where you can just turn the taps on and off and just expect people to return. Talk about returning. Red Rose is back and winning ways. 39 tests in a row now. They were 10, 5 down to Australia. John Mitchell afterwards. An absolute joke, if you're worried about being 10, 5 down. Most important is how we worked our way back into it. First run out in disaster rugby with the 4.5 size ball as well. Yeah, it was good game. Really, really good game. Like CJ, you rose the question. I asked the question about the competition with the red roses. And I'll tell you what, it was so competitive at half time. I mean, the strainer up by five points. And then the red roses were absolutely rubbed and congratulated the Holy Adrian Son on her 50th cap. It was business as usual. Some of the tries that they scored were great. Loads conversation around the 4.5 size ball. It's the same weight as a size 5 ball, just slightly smaller. I would have loved that. Generally, smaller hands than most. It was so hard past the ball when it was wet. So, yeah, I'd have been all over that. I mean, I understand why some of them are not happy, but it makes ball handling easier. Ball handling easier. Listen to Helena Roland in the week, she said, when you kick the ball, when you hit the sweet spot of the ball, which is now smaller, the thing pings. But when you don't, it's terrible. And I saw Amy cocaine talking on the scourge podcast about line-up throwing. When you get it right, it goes and when you don't. But I think it's harder. So I think the red roses, what they're absolutely brilliant are when Joe Harrison plays at number 10 is their ability, their kick meters unreal. And when they get into 22 with the size of their forward pack and the power, they're almost unstoppable. So if it takes away some of the kicking and brings greater equilibrium to kick in, then maybe it closes the gap between them and everyone else. It's a hard conversation because they would say they've worked so hard. You know, Helena Roland, Zoe Harrison, Holly H. said, we've worked so hard on techniques to kick the ball as far as we can. And then I remember watching a game. I think it was in Gloucester ahead of the World Cup before last. And Wales could not exit. Like they simply could not. 10, 15 meters. I have to kick. So England would go, well, it's not our fault. We're better. That would be their attitude. But I still, you know, think there's a bit of a concern of the women's game. There's been an interesting survey that's come out actually about how few women's rugby fans actually do what competition first and foremost, a competition would be great. But that's not why they go to the game. It would explore that on another pod for sure. But it's a really interesting debate. I definitely subscribed to the theory that women's rugby doesn't have to copy the men. It's something that Giselle has always spoken about. And I think it's a really valid point. So I definitely want to see how this goes with the 4.5. But then they're switching back to it for the six nations. So you kind of think they've got to just commit to it. So the players can then get used to it. But then there's also debate. The cost to produce the four and a half size ball, the cost around the whole experiment. Do you think that would have been better serve, putting all of that money into a different area of women's game? Because I don't think it's been like a massive problem in women's game. But it is a massive problem if some teams can't exit. They can't cost that much. That's that much to produce the whole ball. I don't know. I don't know. No, but also when you think of the grass roots to then he's to get loads of balls out. Yeah. If everyone is going to play a full part. But then it comes back to this point. John, John and Farns made. And he said just on the investment into the women's game, it's a shame the game is a little one side at the moment. However, good points made on the pod is with the connoisseur about how the PWR is now proving ground for players from many different countries. Intriguing to see in the coming years where the investment of the women's game may actually be the most can investment into the men's game. They are if you have ever made. And this is the point I've seen first hand down at women aerobic club. Because John is saying my aerobic club is now a full on family affair, daughters and sons playing on Sunday mornings, mums and dads helping out with the various tasks is bringing girls and women into rugby, yes, which is brilliant and up itself. But it's also keeping boys and men in rugby. There's fewer split lautes and families as to what to do on a Saturday afternoon or a Sunday morning, all of a sudden 10 years on from the red rosary in the World Cup. Might the legacy be also felt in the men's game as much as it is the women's. That's a really interesting point. 100% seeing that. Brian Moore has been banging that drum and his wife Belinda has been so involved in the women's game as is Brian, but I saw that first hand down women aerobic club Sunday morning and it is telling just how much for family. It always has been a mini rugby, but so many more girls are involved. 100% and I was exactly the same at Cobham every Sunday. There is girls and there are families everywhere, which as you as you said can only help the men's game can only help more of those girls brothers stay in the game as well, which helps the men's side. I listen to your guys put on the week and I absolutely agree that for the Red Roses, they don't have to worry about everybody else. Like they're saying to everybody else, you say, let them worry about themselves, they need to put some funding into it, they need to grow their game. These girls are just going to keep getting better and better, and it's probably scary how far they could probably take it till someone maybe tries to catch up, but they don't need to worry about that. They just need to keep going, dominating, getting better. I think John Mitchell said this team is going to be even better, come the World Cup, but yeah, a very good point about it being a full family affair and keeping as many kids, boy or girl, in and around rugby club. If you want to grow the ecosystem of rugby, invest your money into women's game. 100%. If you add a million pounds to invest into rugby and you want to see the greatest return and that's in terms of attendance, fun engagement, social engagement, ticket sales, everything, your million pounds will be better spent in the women's game and would go further than it ever would in the men's game. We said that for years. We have seen that in this country and we're most definitely seeing the benefits of it, for whether it's the PWR and the attendance is there for various different reasons, the success that we have in there to see and we're seeing at the very highest level. It's amazing, not everyone has the capacity to spend what the RFU does, but to echo what we've already said on that Conor O'Shae podcast, it's the intention behind the spending, knowing that it's not just going to be isolated to the women's game, there is an absolute crossover to the whole ecosystem of rugby, which is men and women. Across over definitely, but it's really interesting, the survey and the survey would be tailored to people, because I think it's been done by the GSR pod, Sarah just sent it over. It does show that around 80% of people who go to women's rugby don't see competence of the game as a massive thing, where I say that that might be different for people going to watch men's rugby. So there are distinct differences between the audiences, but clearly the same sport as well. Because I raised the point, at the moment, it's 20 kids are going to watch it, if you're paying 60 pounds. That's very true. So watch your red roses, trust me, you want to see. And that's why we've always have England men's fans after, if a team doesn't go so well, when the team goes where, it's a bit like emperor in the Coliseum, it's like, yeah, great. When it doesn't go so well, that's when the ticket price is really high. 100%. We mentioned it. When England, England men, this is, when they've not been successful and when they have lost matches, and we'll say, you're paying 190 pounds and you're getting served this. For the red roses, if you're spending 20-odd pounds like, yes, rugby is important, but the day out, the experience, it's more than just what happens between the four lines. The biggest challenge for the red roses and the women's game is when you start charging competitive prices that we've seen in the men's game, then naturally, people are just going to expect a little bit more. Premium seating in New Zealand, November 233. Is that it? You thought it would be less? It will be more, sorry. That is category one, one, nine, six, category two, one, six, six. Unfortunately, that is where the England team are. And that's why you've been in that change in both of you. You might think, oh, why is everyone giving us a tough time? No, no, no. I mean, if you get the money, you get paid well, that's how much it costs. Also, the sheer economics, and I know the red roses have had their contracts extended, and it was quite, you know, it was a lengthy contract negotiation. But when you look at the sheer economics of the men's game versus the women's game, like, I covered the red rose against Ireland at the start of the six nations, they've got £7,000 in there. When you consider what, the RFU made for that game versus the men, which make £11 million a home game, just incomparable, it turns out the money has been brought in through the gates. Right, good stuff, Chaps. That is us for this Monday. We've got another big prem preview pod coming up. I think we'll drop that in a few days' time. Oh, yeah, we will have that one. Are you still rolling them out, yeah? We are still rolling out our content. Right. You were busy with another broadcaster. TNT. Didn't get asked, actually. Didn't get asked, we had a conner body. You know we've got a bunch of Fin Smith, JVP, LRZ, lots of. Haven't been asked to do this special, yeah, actually. Fin backs to Daffer Jenkins, all on our big prem preview pod, which is out Thursday morning. And then next Monday, we'll do our big domestic preview, looking ahead to the start of the prevenue, RC seasons and everything else in between. Go on a quiz. See you later, everyone. Cheers. Cheers, these. Thanks for downloading Rugby Union Weekly. For more info, head to the BBC Sounds app. [Music] Get more with BBC Podcasts, wherever you listen. 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