Brief Encounters: Henry Nelson-Case

Welcome to another episode of Brief Encounters, the Legal 500 Future Lawyers podcast where we demystify the legal industry for students and career changes. Today I'm speaking with Henry Nelson Case. Henry's a qualified solicitor who's worked in private practice in-house and as a legal consultant. Henry's also a very well-known content creator with an impressive social media following. His content focuses on mental health, well-being and challenging toxic workplace behaviour, among many other important topics. Henry has done a TEDx talk and recently interviewed some highly recognisable actors at a film premiere. Henry thanks for joining us. It seems like you never quite know where a career that starts in law might take you. Thank you for having me on and really excited to chat. Yeah, you're completely right. During the TEDx talk and the actor interview, things were never anything that I put on my sort of what you want to be when you grow up. I want to be a lawyer kind of a gender. Yeah, here we are. So yeah, it's it's really fun. I also think you can use to show that what you think you want to do now on how your career looks. It may not be what your future looks like, but we can delve into all of that as we chat. Absolutely. And if we could start talking more about your legal career and how you came to that first and then we'll talk about a lot of other stuff, I'm sure. But do you remember what first sparked your interest in law? Was it with a job you thought you wanted to do or how did that come about? No, so my first sort of forry into law academically was my A-levels. The centre that I did my A-levels at one of the options was law. And I had chosen my other ones and I think I had like chemistry, English, physics, all the classics. I had one more that I had to choose and I spoke with my parents and they said, why don't you give law a go? That's an interesting one. I thought, yeah, cool. Okay, I'll do it. And then I did it at A-levels and somehow I obviously liked it and I was passionate about it because I came away with an A-star and I thought, I brilliant, I'll do the law admissions test. I went to some open days at university. I'm going to do law at university. I really like the sound of this. And then it was one of those things that when I went to university back in I graduated undergrad in 2014 to 2011 as well. I would have started. I didn't really have much of an idea of what the profession looked like outside of you either solicitor or a barrister. And I did a mini-pupilage and I thought, I don't want to be a barrister. I don't want to do that. So then I did work experience and apply for vacation schemes and all of that stuff is a student and I thought, oh, I quite like this. I like munching around an office, I like researching, I like talking to people. This is the job that I want to do. And then I effectively just went through the complete traditional route in a sense as I graduated with my undergraduate in law. I didn't get training contract during my undergraduate. I locked my housemates and my friends did. I didn't. And I just thought, wow, I want to be a lawyer. So I need to do the legal practice course. So I self-funded that and worked full time as a banking and finance paralegal at Osborne Clark while doing my training contract. And then at that point I got my training contract and just carried on the process. Oh cool. You're an interesting point there I think. So firstly, the fact that you did law at a level, this is a question I get a lot from students that we meet at events. They ask, well, firstly they think they have to do law to a level and they're always quite surprised that when I say you don't actually have to. But would you recommend that people do law at a level then? Did you? Because you really enjoyed it. I really, really enjoyed it. I know I think more centres offer it now, but I think a lot of centres don't necessarily offer it as an A level. But I really, really enjoyed it. And I think you're completely right that you don't have to study it at A level to do it at university. I think first of university, basically, you'll be completely fine if you went in having not done it before. But I really, really liked the practical element of it. And it may have been the way that we were taught it in our class and things, but it was just so practical. Here is the law. Here is the scenario. How does that fit to this? I don't know what I just really liked it. And obviously it showcased in my A level grades and stuff, but it was just something about sort of the problem side of things, the problem solutions, all of that. And it was the A level I was unsure about doing. It's the A level I ended up doing the best in. I think your point about it being practical is an important one because often the academic study of law, just like many other subjects, I guess, isn't anything like their job itself. So to get an idea as you said, getting a problem and applying something to that, that's exactly what you are doing when you're in the workplace, it's much more about application than being able to remember things or and stand things. So it's probably just really useful in that in that respect. Yeah, no, I completely agree in that your completely right in the sense that the sort of black letter, all that you kind of learn from the books, when you're actually coming to practice and you suddenly get hit with a problem from a client, it's completely sort of different in terms of you actually now need to start applying the facts of the law to the actual case. You're not writing a 3000 word paper on sort of a move point or a decision that judges have made or why they didn't kind of agree on X to Y and Z points. And you mentioned that you were a paralegal for a while before you started your training contract. And that's a route that certainly become a lot more common in the last sort of decade or so. Did you find that useful in your application and when you became a trainee, did you find your experience as a paralegal useful? Yeah, honestly, I would say that my role is a banking and finance paralegal. It may have been the firm I was in the team that I was at, but that was one of my favourite like legal roles that I've had because I hadn't from university to then doing the LPC and working full time all at once fully tested my time management skills, my ability to sort of change between mindset synobrously with a lot of people now doing the estuary alongside working. That's a skill set that they'll be developing doing that which will serve them really well when they go into practice and managing sort of competing clients and deadlines and all of that stuff. But I also think just from like a practical perspective that paralegal roles set me up for my training contract because not only did it give me sort of basic skills and how to actually work in an office, what's an office like? And I know it's sort of a lot less so now people going into the office, but I didn't necessarily know how to compose like corporate emails to team members. I didn't know how to even scan in a document or just how to be in that environment. And when you sort of 21, 22, you're still very young and I think there was something about me just being there and knowing what to say or how to draft like an email. When it came to my training contract, I walked in on that first day somewhat confident in a sense that I can get around an office. This is an environment I've been in before. I may not know what I'm doing in terms of the actual law because I see I haven't done before, but if someone says can you send this to a client and can you file it to the matter? Yeah, sure. And that's not to say that if you go into your training contract, you're expected to know that because they will teach you. That's why you have inductions and things, but for me it was more of a confidence either things that this is a familiarity in a sense. So I think it definitely helped me. Yeah, I suppose there is just an assumed level of knowledge even when you do go in quite junior and having that confidence of just knowing what to do in an office helps you then focus more on the legal work. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Okay, great. So what do you think was the biggest challenge you faced on your journey into law? The biggest challenge that I've faced, I think for me, it's probably, so I'm the first person in my family to be a lawyer. Like I, we knew like a few people that had lawyers or have associated lawyers and whatever their own businesses or they had lawyers and retainers, but nobody was actually a lawyer. So it's kind of an environment that I didn't really know. So I, and I think that's changed a lot more now with sort of events that are put on for students for social media, for virtual law fairs and all of that stuff. So it's a lot more accessible for people all over the country, but I think for me, I kind of didn't know what I didn't know in, in, in to kind of sort of how to be an, and I I think it was a lot of learning by sort of looking at what other people were doing, how other people were behaving. And also like I said at the beginning, I didn't know anything other than solicitor of Bowenston. I didn't know there were in-house roles. I didn't know there were like professional support lawyers and all of these other sort of and now legal tech lawyers and all of these other niche careers that operate within the legal profession. I just thought it was very binary, either this or if you don't like speaking in court, you're this. So I think that's something that was quite eye opening when I came to learn that actually there's a whole who half things out there. Yeah, it's very, it can be very different, as you say, depending on the type of lawyer you are, but also depending on the practice area you're in. So you could work in the same firm as somebody else, but do something your day to day is entirely different. Yeah. You mentioned earlier that so you did a law undergraduate degree. Did you find, I think sometimes being on a course where everyone's sort of going for the same thing can be a difficult environment to be in. And when, as you said, you mentioned earlier as well, people around you start getting those facts, schemes maybe in their second year or training contracts in the second third, whatever year. That must be quite difficult at times if you're not having the same thing happen to you. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think I remember at the time that there was an article or it was a front page actually of, I'm going to say, I'm pretty sure I can fact check it as the new law general posted a front page cover to basically compare getting a training contract to the Hunger Games. And I remember really night and second year thinking brilliant, fantastic, the odds are well and truly stacked against me. It's quite, obviously, of course you're happy with your friends and everybody who's getting their offers, but when you've kind of been through sort of two, three rounds of application side, but some for a lot of people even more, it kind of, you think, well, maybe this isn't for me. Maybe you get knocked back and it kind of knocks you confidence and you kind of need to reassess, but I think it is really important to keep going to keep sort of persevering and it builds the skills like the resilience, for example, if when it actually comes to practice, you're going to get knocked down quite a lot. You're going to get a contract, something you've drafted that you think's amazing. It's going to be red pent. It's going to be completely shredded and you have to start over again and that can hurt, but I think it kind of, if you can start developing those skills now and not taking the rejections or the feedback personally, well, actually, maybe that rejection was good because that's not actually the firm for you. Have you been to the firm? Have you been to an open day? What's it like? Are you just applying to that firm because that's the firm you think you should be applying for? Does that firm even do what that you, in your heart, actually want to do? Or is it something that you're just kind of, I think I should do this when in reality, I want to look at this medium sized firm that does family law, but actually a clear chance to do that, but my university's pushing me as my friends are all doing this. Maybe I should apply for this firm. So yeah, I think it's really important to, whilst the rejection can be tough, it is a difficult profession to get into whilst we are seeing more roots, more accessible roots into it. It's still difficult if we look at the SDB pass rates, for example, students are really being tested to get into the profession. That resilience starts early doors. Yeah. And you definitely do need it during your career. Yeah, it's an interesting point you make about applying to the right firms as well because obviously it is those big firms that have the big marketing budgets and then sometimes have the links with the universities and you just automatically hear about them more, but they're definitely not the firm for everyone. They work really well for some people but not for others. And I do think that when you start doing your applications, if you are lucky enough to get through to the interview stage, you will realise that the firms that do reply to you and are interested in you are somehow well matched to you and they can tell that from your application. Yeah, definitely. And I think you touch on the point that if you make it through to the interview stage, even making it to that point is a real big thing because the amount of steps you may have to go just to get to that interview is a lot of time, a lot of training you might be working alongside it, you might be studying alongside it. So even if you get through to the interview, the assessment, whatever the structure is for that firm, I think that it's just a learning opportunity. And you think, well, this didn't work. I just don't know that point actually, if it didn't work, I would always take a chance and email to try and get feedback. A lot of firms will say, no, sorry, we don't give feedback at this level, but if you don't ask, you don't get, and you might catch the recruiter on a good day and they might say X, Y and Z actually. So always ask for feedback as well. I agree. A lot of it's about practice, isn't it? Some people do just seem to be able to sail through these types of assessments and interviews, but most people can't. And for most people, they get there eventually because they've been through a bunch of interviews already and they've learnt things from each one. Yeah. So asking for feedback is very important. And what's one thing that surprised you about practicing law? I didn't realise, and this comes on to the practical application, how commercial, it sounds quite silly, but obvious, but at the time it didn't, when I entered as a junior about how commercial and business-y, it actually is in comparison to practice. And I think it comes a lot with experience as well because when I was a junior and I would be asked to draft something or a letter or an email or advice or whatever to a client, I would be fighting the law. I would be giving everything because I didn't want to miss anything. But actually for clients, time as money, they are busy CEOs that operate in multinational companies, SMEs, whatever it may be, they don't care. They don't want you to regurgitate the sale of good side. They don't care what the data protection acts. They just want to know what the answer is. And it's really difficult shifting, especially if you're going straight from academic law to the practice of as a trainee, whatever, to suddenly switch your mindset from giving everything to suddenly having to say yes or no, or it depends and summarise it in a sentence or to summarise it in a sentence or to even. I found that quite difficult, but I think a lot of people, and I think it's also quite surprising to a lot of people that may on the outside think of career laws, difficult and challenging and a doggy dog. Most people will help you. Most people want you to do well. Most people in your teams will support you. You are a trainee of this firm. You could be a future partner of this firm. These people want to invest in you to do well. So again, on the point of just being more commercial in business, that does come with the experience and the confidence to actually say, I don't need all of that fluff. I've researched this. I know the law of what to miss. This is the answer. So I think that was quite a big thing for me. Yeah, interesting. So it's your job to know the law, but not necessarily tell your clients everything about it. You know, some of your clients will be very, people who are operating at a very, very high level or very knowledgeable, very impressive people, but they don't actually know the law. Anyway, that's why they're coming to you. They just want to know what it means for them, their business and what they can do and what they can't. And it's your job to kind of translate your legal knowledge into clear advice. Yeah, you become that sort of, almost you hear around a lot of the trusted advisor. You're not just the lawyer. You're just this kind of all around commercial person who is basically assisting them and helping them with their businesses goals. And following on from that, what do you think is one myth about being a lawyer that needs to be busted? It's weird. I might again, coming back to sort of me as a junior in terms of re, re law academic watching suits, for example, that I've been this big fantasy office doing all these fun, fancy things, shouting and running around courts. The actual practice of law is quite the polar opposite. So I think particularly with social media and YouTube, tip top all of those things in TV. There's almost a concept and idea of construction of what lawyer life is actually going to be like in the reality is sort of completely different. And I think for some people that may be a bit of a shock or almost disheartening the fantasy that they imagined for themselves isn't actually aligned with what's actually happening in real life. But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think there's a difference. So it could be a shock for a few. Yeah, I mean suits, I love suits too, but it kind of falls at the first hurdle in the sense that the paralegal has a sort of amazing corner office with the floor to ceiling windows and if you look at Manhattan. I mean, it's an American anyway, so it's a difference just to come over there. So who are we to say? But I'm. Yeah, I had my own office. I know, I know even when you're quite senior now, you don't get your own office, do you? I had a window if you once. Oh! And you know that was when I was a paralegal, it was one plug, a window. The one time you had a window. And if you could go back in time, what advice would you give your younger self about law? I think one thing I would give my younger self entering in the profession is don't change yourself to try and fit into what you want people or what you think people think that you should be. I think for a lot of people, their uniqueness, their individuality is their strength and that's what's going to make them stand out and it's going to make firms think this person we can train them, but they're an amazing person. I could put that person in front of a client and I know that they will handle it real well. Because they may not necessarily, you know, planning law at the moment, if they want to be a planning law, if they want to be a tax lawyer, they will do that. There is potential there, but they have got all of the right soft skills that are likeable, they're friendly, they're not trying to be something that are not comfortable in themselves. They're things that you can't really train. They're things that you can't really teach people. And I think a lot of people try and mute themselves or turn themselves down because they think they shouldn't be the way they want to be. The way that they are because that's going to hold them back when actually it's the complete opposite. Yeah, because it's really intimidating when you first start any job, isn't it? But I think especially when you're starting a career in law, has this sort of reputation for being very, the environment has a reputation for being quite corporate and things. And a lot of people don't feel like they fit into that. And as a trainee at the bottom of the ladder, it's very easy to just sort of retreat and try and be someone that you're not. Yeah, that's a really good advice. Yeah, I was just going to say that was one of the first things that in my, I think it must have been my first month review and my first training contract seat. I was told that I was quite quiet or that I didn't seem necessarily kind of hungry or ambitious for this seat, which to be fair, it was litigation. I wasn't a litigator. But we all know that in the team, we all knew at the end, we're like, he's not a litigator, lovely guy chucking in commercial. But they said you seem sort of quiet and you're not that like fiery boy, but I kind of was muting myself because I didn't want to, I'm in a new environment. I'm a first seat trainee, first couple of weeks. I have no confidence here. I'm trying to be what you think I should be. Well, I think you think I should be just quiet, do as I'm told when actually they wanted more challenge, they wanted more. Me to kind of be myself and the time the end of the seat come around. I was doing all sorts of like fully integrated into the team. I was doing X, Y and Z and it was this complete. Oh, sorry, I originally thought what I was doing was the right thing to do by being quiet, but actually I was shooting myself in the foot. And as soon as the partner, lovely chap Adam said actually, can you do why you doing this? You then think, oh, sorry, I misunderstood. You want me to be myself cool. And then you're immediately more comfortable because you're not wearing a mask, you're not wearing a layer that when you finish the day, you can go back and be yourself and when you come into the office, you put on the grey jacket. Is it that they addressed that with you, I think, because they could have kind of easily left that until the end of your seat and just sort of told you then by your reaction to begin with probably quite normal and how a lot of people go into working at a lot for you know as a first seat training or as a trainee in general, you don't really feel like you can just voice your opinions on everything. Yeah, who are you to speak up and say why are we doing this or I think that might not be right after my research. Yeah, well, at least they encourage you to voice that stuff. What's the best piece of career advice you've ever received? I think it still sticks with me to this day and again, I keep coming back to this job, but I honestly loved it so much when I was at banking paralegal. I was banking finance, a guy called Omar, he sent to me that what clients want is what makes a good lawyer is somebody who a client can go down the pub with in that kind of stuck with me in a sense that I tell it to people now still that starting out in their careers is it comes back to being yourself not that you have to be mates with everybody. But if you can be make clients feel comfortable enough with you, I mean, you're going to feel confident in your skills, I'm going to want to keep working with you. And ultimately that's what you're doing is a lawyer, you're selling yourself, you need to make sure that clients want to keep working with you. But if you can just be that person that makes clients feel it is that makes them feel relaxed. They're going to keep coming back, you're going to feel more comfortable with them and ultimately you're going to do better work, they're going to get better work, the firm's going to win, everyone's going to win. So that's one of the best things that's stuck with me. Yeah, that's really good advice. Moving on to talk a little bit about the other stuff that you do not necessarily law. When and why did you start creating content on social media? When was August September 2021? Why? I'm a middle child, I'm an attention seeker. It's probably the honest answer. No, I honestly, I, you know, I really don't know, I've been asked this like a few times. And the honest answer is, I don't know, I remember downloading TikTok. I remember posting a video and I remember going for a look by Marina walking around the Marina. Coming back and it got a load of views and I thought, oh, didn't expect that. Because I didn't want my employers to see it. I just did it because I wanted to, I've always been quite creative. I've always like tech cameras, editing and stuff. Did it loads as a child. And I kind of fell back into it, sort of turning 30. I thought I read something as well that says when you kind of hit your late 20s, early 30s, you kind of regress back to doing all the things you do love doing. Is a child in the me that was like making silly little videos and I kind of got back into it. And I just kept doing it. And it kind of grew then into what it is today and the opportunities that. It's kind of given me, which has been sort of incredible. Incredible. And how did you make the decision to stop working full time as a lawyer and to concentrate a little bit more on the content creation. I think I didn't realize I was probably approaching burnout, trying to work a full time job. A normal lawyer full time job, which is obviously quite demanding in any of them. Trying to negotiate like the social media, like public side of things when I was working with like brands has been taken to events all of these things which I was doing either late in the evening or on weekend, which meant that my own physical health was being neglected. What I was eating was being neglected. My sort of personal relationships were being neglected. And I think. I felt like I was in a way, living kind of the dream, but I also wasn't actually kind of living my life in a sense where I wasn't enjoying everything that I was doing. So I was, I think it was the week I was turning 30. I just broken up with my then girlfriend and I thought, do you know what if I don't do this social media content side of things now because I love doing it really. But I have to get the chance to kind of push this again, where is. Hopefully if I ever wanted to go back into the law full time as a professional, I've got my practice to go to renewed and I'm still quite involved with the law through sort of other other avenues and stuff that I could come back to this, whereas whilst all the other stuff is taking off, let's just give it a go. I did all of that, put the job turned 30 broke up with my girlfriend went to Thailand, classic came back came back to nothing. And then my community that I built and I thought it's just. Give it a go in. Yeah, that's that's the rest of history as they say. I love your content's very entertaining and that you also talk about well being a lot and if that's something that you that struck you when you were working in law firms. Yeah, and I think it was one of those things that there was a video that I posted that. was talking about I obviously didn't kind of like a comedy way because that's how I deal with like Stress and shock as I make a joke about it which my therapist says isn't always the healthiest thing to do But it is what it is and I posted a video about having like a Midday sort of breakdown almost or like wiping away the tears before you join a work call and then pretending you're fine Which is something I personally experienced when I was in private practice that was a lived experience for me that I will share and But what shocked me was got millions of views hundreds of thousands of comments Of people also make me too or Hard relate feel the same this happens to me yesterday And I thought crikey this is really unhealthy bit the profession is like this But also when I was actually in private practice and I was going down to the bathroom to throw up with anxiety or whatever it may be Actually, I felt like I was the only person that was doing that I couldn't keep up Um, this is not a career that's meant for me. Maybe I have always just being the other and maybe I shouldn't I don't belong in this room um But there were probably however many hundred people in that office other people going through exactly the same um people don't want to Necessarily say it because they don't they we all just think everyone else looks like they've got it together Everyone's walking around the office so comfortably laptop in hand searing meeting room three. They're everyone's giving it the The talk in the show, but actually a lot of us are struggling so If people are more human about it and it's more comfortable and less to be able to talk about You that wouldn't be those hundreds of thousands of comments of saying maybe to or I'm also struggling Yeah, I mean you're definitely not alone in having those moments I think and as you say people don't want to talk about that because then they think that other people will think they're not cut up could cut out for a job early a career in the law And but that's not the case at all. I mean not that you should have to Feel that way, but it is normal to feel that way on on certain occasions and it still means you can be like a really good at your job and be a really good lawyer here Yeah, exactly and the profession is A tough profession. It can be challenging and obviously it's highly intellectual demanding and client precious and all of that stuff of course Uh, but I think there does just need to be in sort of a research by law care that law society all of these amazing bodies that are doing loads to to help in this space It still means that we should or it doesn't mean that just because it is a sort of A pressured environment that we can't be more human Then we can't be homemade. I know you've worked for late nights this weekend. You've got a newborn must be really stressful Um, coming late tomorrow means not with the clientele 11 So whatever it is you need to sort out at home and pop in or work from home or whatever it may be just kind of be more accommodating to to people Yeah, so being more open about these things and talking about them one way that law firms are not just work law firms But other sort of very corporate workplaces can help um And sure that their employees are Feeling okay Yeah exactly and do more so than just kind of the tokenistic um emails or um whatever it may be actually Um But what they're saying into practice because the juniors the talent the lawyers will stay your organization They'll want to progress up the ranks then um if you nurture and look after your talent at an early stage And they'll want to stay Yeah, speaking to someone recently who works at a very big law firm and this law firm has you know recently started pushing mental health And one of the things they were doing for mental health was Some sort of walking challenge or you know a kilometer challenge where everyone in team walked around or cycled Yeah, and this law over's like well that's all great, but you don't actually give us the time When are we doing that? Let's have a walking part of my desk The map that did feel a bit tokenistic So that's not the way forward Being a bit more open and accommodating is the way forward Yeah exactly, not everybody can walk cycle run Whilst it's well-intentioned I think there are other um ways that that That's right yeah that it's not very accessible necessarily either Yeah true um can we just talk a little bit about Let's talk How did that come about? Yeah so That is funny so you know I mentioned I just went off the Thailand and came back with nothing So whilst I was in Thailand I was at some like party thing whatever goes on And I had a message in email that said Do you want to do a TEDx talk and it's like 2 a.m or whatever. I think it's a joke Um, I don't necessarily know what I'm doing with my life right now. I'm having a man like crisis Um, so I respond to me like I'd love to like this has always been a dream of mine to do something like this Go back to Heathrow get home the TED team sent me a whole Barrage of information said okay. What's your topic? Ted need this this is all the guidelines that we need to do you're being flown at because it was in Bulgaria The TED talk you're being flown out to Bulgaria on this day Um the talk is on this day Uh you need to meet all of these guidelines Really strict deadlines Let's go and I thought Well here we go I guess and I've never done outside of university assessments Any public speaking I don't like it. I did like it back then. I Get nervous really easily. I go red really easily Um Sweaty palms the lock Hello my dog is just come up to say hello And yeah, it came through in obviously it was one of the best experiences I've I've ever had and to be able to talk about something Um men's role being there. I'm really passionate about and to kind of get over my fear of public speaking on like the red circle Um talking in front of however many hundred people um in the lovely backdrop that was bulk area was uh a really Um kind of pivotal moment and that's when I kind of thought okay, I can make this like a job This is something I'm passionate about. I got a real buzz off of this. I want to keep doing this Um and kind of do what I'm doing and still Have a positive message and kind of whatever may have you mentioned the the interviewing actors and things all of that has come from Turning what was once a negative working experience into something positive and not kind of letting that negative aspect of things kind of dictate what my future should look like Yeah, well that's quite the baptism of fire isn't it with the public speaking It was nothing like that for nothing It's from the person who didn't want to be a barrister And then how was the experience of interviewing Rachel McAdams and Dylan O'Brien? Yeah, that was intense It was so fun there and honestly I Never done anything like that getting my life. I think all before that I'd only ever interviewed Only Alan Car that that was it is which is obviously a huge The back of this treasure success as well So yeah, it was a really fun experience and I do honestly do think being a lawyer kind of helped In terms of knowing how to conduct an interview Obviously, I'm super nervous because I've got a list as in front of me um, but knowing kind of how to think on your feet ask questions sort of It was not going to plan kind of pivot. So I do think that the legal profession regardless of where you may end up Um, does give you so many useful transferable skills Interesting that you found that useful um, and is it Do you find it fulfilling to be able to do some legal work and that's a job that you really enjoy and you're good at it and you know, it's sort of To an extent intellectual um And then to balance that out with your more creative work on the content side that you get to do a bit of books You find that works really well for you I honestly I really do and I struggle with I get bored quite easily if I'm just doing The same kind of thing In in having the opportunity to do so many and it's obviously a real privilege to be able to do so many different things that On different days my brain gets to try different things And again, I do think being a trainee kind of helped that because one of you doing you're in one team and you're thinking one way The next year in a contentious team you just need to kind of switch um your brain around but having um The opportunity now to as my career um To be able to do various different things in work with like I work quite closely with the law society When I was a junior when I was a um Law student to me the law society was this Establishment that people like me other than my graduation ceremony my admission ceremony have no interaction with Um and I and I think now having being a in this space, I think there are so many tired people in the profession, so many people in organisations and bodies that want to do well, want to showcase that within the profession there are so many careers out there for young people. You get a little degree, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a lawyer, but you can still work within the profession. Yeah, as you said, it's a privilege to be able to do lots of have a job where that's multifaceted and do all these different things, but hopefully listening to this, people will be encouraged that one, there are lots of options within the legal profession itself, and to kind of find something that fits your personality, but also if you are a trainee in a very corporate environment or a qualified lawyer in a very corporate environment, it's also fine to have other things going on, so if you love writing, like have a go at writing an article or blog or something, or if it's sports that you love, then make sure that you're trying to fit some of that into your spare time, this sort of doesn't have to be a full on side hustle, but it's important to incorporate things, these things into your life to make sure that you're getting the right balance and the feeling a bit happier. Yeah, no, I completely, and on the side hustle point, I think you're completely right that you can just do things for the joy of doing them, you don't have to monetize everything, and I think decentralising your identity from just your job, having hobbies, if that's fine beside on a Sunday, if that's high rocks running, writing, reading, whatever it is, do things that bring you joy, because this job is brilliant in so many ways, but it will also take so much from you, so carve out that time because a job is just a job, regardless of what the job is, it is just a job, your life will still exist without that job, that job you may not be at forever, you may move firms, you may do whatever, so don't give up all the other things that you love doing, just to put in an extra few hours here and there, just to look good or to impress somebody, and I think that's why I really admire the current generations coming up into the legal profession because they are prioritising their hobbies, they are prioritising their wellbeing and other things, also make sure we're interesting interviews to say I do this, I did that and part of this, which I think is a lot more, makes you a lot more well-rounded. Yeah, I think that's a nice place for us to wrap up, unless you want to add anything else. No, thank you so much for having me on, I think, really enjoyed trying to you.