Brief Encounters: Building an In-House Legal Career with Sarah Amini

Welcome back to Brief Encounters, the Legal 500 Future Lawyers podcast where we demystify the legal industry for students, career changes and all aspiring lawyers. Today we have Sarah Amini on the podcast. Sarah is a trainee solicitor at Toyota and I'm excited to talk to her about her journey into law as well as what it's like to train in-house. A topic we're so often asked about by our audience. It's sure to be an interesting discussion so let's dive straight in. Thanks for coming on Sarah. You're happy to be here. So let's just dive straight into the questions. I want to talk a little bit about your journey into law and how that came about. So do you remember what first sparked your interest in law and was it always the career path you imagined yourself having? I think with with law I was sort of the first person in my family to ever even look into that career path because we mostly have people in sort of the medical field or pharmacy but I'd say there wasn't really like a eureka moment where I was like this is the industry I want to go into but I just naturally found myself always gravitating towards that area. In particular I'm like the designated person in the family which deals with letters that come in sort of reading that explaining that to my parents because my parents are originally from Afghanistan and they came over to the UK so they sort of needed that second person to sort of read and explain things to them and I was actually responding to sort of parking tickets for my dad drafting those letters getting those evidence so in a way I feel like that's something that I enjoyed is getting that information just being that the middle person to explain that something that was seen as complex to for example my parents in this instance and then pairing that with sort of the element of problem solving and things which I've always gravitated towards those are the two things combined that I was thinking law is something I'd want to explore further and yeah following that I had an internship experience at A&O Alan and over like a smart start it was called so that sort of gave me the exposure to what commercial law was which was initially what's always the only idea of law the students sort of have initially going in anything that's the only route you need to go into yeah it's interesting that isn't it like I think because those firms that the bigger firms that do a lot of commercial work they have the bigger budgets and the marketing and you they are kind of splashed around everywhere especially when you're at university at law school and so people have heard of them and they automatically think that that's the kind of law they want to go into without like looking at the broader picture all these other types of law firms and companies available and other like wildly different areas of law available as well yeah 100% that's cool and so what path did you then take to becoming a lawyer sort of talking academic path I guess did you do a law degree a non law degree GDL LPC SQE like how did it look for you yeah so I did a law degree so as then it was I actually going into wanting to become a lawyer that's what I knew the end goal was but I should have done a bit more research back then to realise that you don't actually need a law degree to become a lawyer and I think that's something that I was probably slightly misinformed on or I could have done a bit more research on understanding that the law degree is not the only route that you would need all the path because I did have an offer from another university Kings College and sort of quote unquote Russell Group University but then I thought having a law degree would have my misinformation was that having a law degree would make it easier on the route to being a lawyer which isn't true at all so I think that was sort of an interesting route that I had but I'm happy that I did do the law degree and get that experience but yeah that's something that a lot of students are probably more aware of now but back then I wasn't really aware of that I think the plus of doing a law undergraduate degree is obviously you've got a much deeper understanding of like all these different areas of law yeah having done well what was kind of them the GDL myself like yeah it's a great course it's very interesting but in some ways it's very surface level you know because you only have that one year to kind of learn about all these different core areas so yeah there is there are certain advantages but yeah it's it's really important that people understand that you don't have to do an undergraduate law degree isn't it and it kind of surprises me that people still ask these ask me this question when we go to events and stuff but it's clearly something that still isn't that well known yeah yeah and also so us is also a really prestigious university so yeah it was definitely a great experience it was a lot less sort of students in there so you get different experiences in different universities and in the sense of the amount of students they're in there and the support that you can sort of receive in relation to applications different universities have different resources so it's really about understanding that we're making that decision to choose your university as well but no it was it was a great experience a good career service is really key especially when you're doing something as involved as training contract applications so they're a different beast and you need someone to cast an eye over them someone who knows what they're doing and who have seen many of them before it's really helpful and and then did you do the SQE after that or yes yeah I went on to do the SQE after doing a lot of research because I knew that the LPC was going to eventually be phased out and with you having to do SQE2 and because I was self-funding the SQE at the time that was definitely something I wanted to consider long term reducing the costs where I can and I'm sure those of students are in that position where they are looking to self-fund so I've definitely been through that process myself and I did take like a year out just so I could work and and save for that but also get that experience as well and trying to find paralegal roles within that year after I graduated to then fund the SQE so yeah that's something that I was considering okay and how did you find the SQE because there's been so much about it in the press and yeah so I know parts of it have been unclear and there's been all this who are about the results and all this so what was your experience of it? I think it was it was definitely a challenging exam but it's not impossible I'd say and I sort of felt booked into researching online and seeing all these statistics and just being very scared on seeing such a small a mass small pass rate percentage and I think having a correct sort of schedule and plan and having that support around you I think something that really helped me through it was actually doing SQE with my friend and both of us together going through the process and also meeting loads of people in the same position in different group chats and just being in the same boat together having that support system really helped but no the SQE was definitely an interesting experience I can go through it in terms of your early SQE pioneer I think you've done very well by the sounds of it yeah something that is I'm learning about all the time to be able to answer questions from from our audience but hopefully in the end it does sort of achieve its goal of widening access to the profession and making it a bit cheaper I don't know we'll see yeah yeah and did you feel do you feel that you've faced any challenges on your journey into law yeah 100% many yeah loads I'd say look a lot of challenges that I did face were mostly that whole process of applications and going through those application cycles there are I started applying my second year of university for vacation schemes training contracts and initially I thought it was going to be quite linear in the sense that I can land a back scheme or a training contract during university that was the plan and then I can just qualify Leona and it was just a very straight path in my mind but that actually wasn't the case at all so a rejection or setback I would say is going through so many application cycles and then being able to land two vacation schemes on my sort of after graduating so that was sort of my third cycle I'd say that'll fourth and then not necessarily converting those vacation schemes because I think in your mind you think that vacation schemes are sort of the golden ticket that's it you apply so much and you go through all those interview stages and you get that vacation scheme and you think you know that's it the be all end all but that's not the case I think there's those of situations where people don't actually convert those into training contracts and yeah that's definitely a setback that I faced thinking back in the whole process that's an important thing to talk about I think because actually I think law firms can be guilty of making it sound like the vacation scheme is your golden ticket and yeah and of course it is a very good way in with many firms only using back schemes now as their recruitment tool but actually as you say you know you can go through all the interviews assessment days to get the back scheme prove yourself while you're there like I'm sure you know working really hard and probably having another interview or something at the end of the week two weeks and then still not land it because it's so competitive it's no other reason yeah and there's something that isn't discussed enough I think yeah but it's good to remember, keep going and actually the fact that you landed them in the first place is amazing and the experience you will have gained from them to be invaluable and I'm sure it helped you as you then progress. Yeah, no, 100%. I'd say those vacation schemes taught me so much about myself and I think it was two firms that were quite different with one of them being a US firm and one being sort of a UK top 100 firm and it was interesting getting those experiences and actually understanding where my interest lies because I think you sometimes think you know what you want until you actually experience it and I think vacation schemes are a two way street and it's trying to understand whether that's something that you would enjoy or something that you're really excited about and I think during that whole process it wasn't necessarily rejection but I'd say just redirection into a new area and I had always been interested in exploring in-house and I didn't actually know that that was an option to do so as a junior I thought it was just something that senior lawyers would go into at the end of their career but it was those experiences that actually led to me understanding that my actual excitement and what I look forward to doing is having more close contact with businesses and working in-house so yeah that I was grateful for that experience as it did sort of just redirect me. That's an interesting and a good good segue into talking about in-house training actually that you sort of ended up on that path after having tried out private practice a bit and as you say in when we talk about in-house law we often think about maybe very senior GCs or that kind of tried-and-tested route of training in a law firm doing two, three, few more years in practice and then going in-house. We don't often hear about people who are in-house from the outset and that's partly because I don't think there are as many opportunities to train in-house although I think that's changing and I think sometimes those opportunities aren't necessarily advertised maybe because they're already recruiting people they have working for them internally or for other reasons. So how did you find your role? Yeah. How did you come to find it? Yeah I was actually came to a point where I was sort of targeting in-house training contracts because I had previously there's a website called In-house Legal I think they have an Instagram page and they sort of post loads of different openings but yeah I've seen it so good yeah and I that was definitely really great in seeing what's on the market as they do post sort of trainees VISTA roles, paralegal roles so that's something that I was sort of browsing but then I would funnily enough with this role at Toyota I like would physically search in-house trainees to VISTA roles and sort of look through as I know that there could be some applications that are live because the Toyota opening was actually on their website but I'm sure that it was advertised elsewhere as well when you search these sort of in-house pages and follow them so that's how I made my application so yeah quite a different way of doing it just because I was targeting in-house I knew I came to the understanding that that's where I wanted to sort of train and start my career and yeah that's what I was interested in. And has anything surprised you about training in-house? Has it been what you expected or different or yeah? Yeah I would say something definitely has surprised me in particular training at Toyota is how good the relationship with the marketing and the legal team actually is just because thinking about in-house legal teams in general you would think that they're sort of maybe the legal team aren't seen as I've seen as sort of a roadblock or the marketing team is might sort of think be a bit scared to talk to the legal team that's the general perception that I had but that's actually not wasn't the case when I with my experience currently here I think the relationship with the legal and marketing team is actually pretty good and they feel comfortable to sort of come and ask us questions so that's something that surprised me here and I think it's because the legal team's approach has just been really perceptive and open to the questions that come in and working together to find a solution rather than just saying no don't do this so we sort of work around it so that's something that's yeah surprised me quite but that's good to hear because that's definitely the perception but a lot of people will have a legal team just being there to say no to say and being very risk of earth and sort of blocking other teams ideas. So do you work very closely with other teams within the business? Yeah so we do work very closely with different teams in the business and I'm sort of involved in giving legal training to the marketing team every month so that's really nice because we have that close relationship where we sort of sit down face-to-face, have those discussions and I sort of look at what's on the ASA rulings that are coming out or any sort of updates from the legal or regulatory side that we can then just explain to the marketing teams and I think through that experience as well it's just explaining it not in legal terms but just normal terms that someone can understand so just an open conversation and that's what we sort of promote in the legal team which is what I've been pleasantly surprised by. That's cool and you've mentioned the marketing team quite a few times so is there an area of law that you kind of you're kind of focusing on? Yeah so I would say with my general interest has been as well advertising and marketing law because I did do previous internship at Sky and Channel 4 and that was through aspiring solicitors so that's actually what also shaped my interest in knowing that in-house was an area that I was interested in so yeah that's something that I previously had exposure to and it's what I've enjoyed so here at Toyota naturally I do get more experience in advertising and marketing law but with that being said it's sort of a mixed bag every day with the sort of work that I get involved in and is there a big legal team or what kind of numbers are we talking? Yeah so our legal team it's not a huge team I'd say with all of us that probably like five five of us but we are legal and compliance so we sit together with sort of the data protection team and we have another team which I was coming to terms with what they're doing but we call it hermoligation which is probably a very new word that you're like well I've never known that before but yeah so they sort of just deal with the vehicle approvals and the compliance side of things so we still sit together in one team okay interesting to get an insight into what others are doing yeah yeah and do you work much with international teams or is it mostly UK based? So yeah because we're sort of two to GB so it's mostly UK based but we do have different teams that there is slight crossovers with dependent on the projects that we're working in there is it like a cross collaboration with that then we might sort of jump in on a meeting with the bigger team that sits just above us but yeah mostly the line of work that we do sort of UK focused and you thought you feel that there are opportunities for career progression within your team like are there are roles or roles within your team that you kind of can aspire towards or see yourself wanting to fulfil in the future yeah so the team has been really supportive and sort of allowing me to get further experience within my sort of two-year training and in terms of progression that they have been really supportive and because we have that sort of legal team the natural transition would be training solicitor junior council legal council which is essentially just a solicitor in the in-house team and then you have senior council so it would be great to sort of progress into more senior levels of that role but yeah generally speaking that team have been really really supportive that's great and I'm sure you don't have a typical day but is there a sort of a schedule typical schedule to your day or can you tell us about how your day sort of works yeah yeah of course so a typical day I'd say so we have a inbox that's designated just for sort of legal and marketing and then that's where we get any queries from the marketing team so I would first look on to that sort of inbox that we have and look at all the queries that have come in so this can involve we call it asset reviews so that can involve sort of any footage for adverts that are going to go out on behalf of Toyota or any emails that will go out to customers that we sort of review and sense check it can involve legal research or just a quick chat about a project that they're looking at doing and just seeing what what our general thoughts are so that's what I first do is just log into that inbox make sure it's all under control and we have a filing system in that as well which I sort of just file across different projects that we have so that's what I first firstly do secondly I just do a little look online just to see if there's any updates use practical law to see in particular for sort of commercial advertising marketing any legal updates that there are sort of happening and usually my meetings sort of do fill up in my Canada, so do sit into some meetings with people that have any queries. So my supervisor usually puts that in my diary as well, just so I can sit in and get an understanding. So that's very much just in general. What a general day might look like. I think sitting in on meetings, there's crucial at this stage is how you do your best learning and learn how to hold your own meetings. And can you tell us about something interesting you've been asked to do at work recently? Yes, so thinking about it now, we do have loads of sort of new launches happening and advance going out. So I was involved in in something like that that is that we are looking to launch soon, but it's just looking at the advert side of it and providing a risk assessment just because with the marketing team sometimes they want to, they have these ideas and they're incredibly excited about proposing these new ideas, things that they want to direction that they want to go with sort of advert. So I was involved in that process of sort of reviewing that, since checking it, looking at it from a commercial perspective and seeing if it's something that aligns with our brand and also just giving a risk assessment. So I think every business has a different risk appetite, things that they're willing to sort of put out there in terms of adverts. But yeah, it was an interesting experience of looking at the different things that they were proposing and essentially from one to five going, this is low risk or this is incredibly high risk. So that was good because you get to use your judgement and give your initial thoughts. So yeah, it was good to get exposure. I'm learning a lot about your role here. I'm happy that we're having this conversation because I think people might look at the company like Toyota and think, well, I don't want to work there because I don't know anything about cars or whatever or it's just going to be looking at, I don't know, contracts to do with vehicles and cars and whatever. And actually, there are so many things going on. And as you said, a lot of your work has focused around like marketing, looking at adverts, like all this stuff is really, really exciting. And not something that you would necessarily be doing if you were training in private work days, so unless you were doing it on behalf of a client, of course. But yeah, I think it sounds very cool. And you've mentioned that you give a lot of training. And so that must involve sort of talking about legal concepts to people who maybe aren't as familiar with the legal terminology. How do you go about that and how do you deal with the sort of questions that come your way? Yeah, I have a good question. I'd say I think back to sort of what initially got me in Siddore, which is sitting down and explaining something very simply to my parents, for example, who English isn't their first language. So I try and adopt that approach in particular with, for example, the marketing team and not overwhelming them with all the legal information, but actually just putting it very, very simply and explaining it in a way in which they can understand the first time around with no legal background. So that's something that I have in the back of my mind when giving the sort of training sessions and not over complicating things, because sometimes it's really easy to get technical and get lost in the detail in particular when you have a legal background. So yeah, that's something I try to do. My supervisor's also sort of initially going into as a trainee solicitor when I would get a research task, I think I would sort of say this is the source, this is where I got it from, all the legislation. And I was able to actually learn from that to just give a one-liner or make it very, very simple, something that the business can just easily understand. So that's something that my supervisor sort of initially taught me and that I've now continued on through my training is just very simple language, something that the business can easily understand. The business and the other departments within the business are your client essentially. Yeah, how it works. And so you have to learn to explain it just as you were if you were working in a law firm and explaining to a person who's coming in from the app. Yeah, yeah. And do you think that in-house trainees have any advantages over private practice trainees? I would say in some ways I would say yes, although there is no sort of I say right or wrong with the private practice or in-house training, but I would say the reason why I gravitated more towards in-house training is because of the business exposure that you get and how closely you work with the business and different teams within that business. And you get to see projects as they run through from start to finish whereas I think as in private practice you sort of work with various different clients in different sectors and areas and industries and you start, you advise on one sort of legal element within that and then you sort of move on to the next client whereas within-house training I've seen projects sort of progressed through the start to finish that I'm still sort of seeing progress because I've been training for 10 months now. So it's really I've really enjoyed seeing that progression and not actually closing off projects just when giving some legal advice, initial legal advice I get to see that through and grow with that project. Yeah, that's brilliant isn't it because in your positions specifically as well you're not moving around different departments or seats or whatever during your training contract so seeing those projects from beginning to end. Yeah, that's really good. And have you ever felt, I mean it's so hard to compare isn't it because you kind of don't really have the experience of the other side but have you ever felt like you're missing out on a traditional law firm experience by training in-house? I would say in some ways the sort of structure that private practice sort of gives you a sort of six months in the seat, six months in the other seat. Some people would probably enjoy that and want that sort of piece of mind knowing that they can focus on one area of the law for a specific period of time in the next area so you get to sort of understand if that's something you would enjoy or not. But I'd say in my situation I wouldn't say necessarily that I am missing out on that experience just because I had had those internship experiences at those in-house companies and I've apparently go to in-house as well which sort of made me understand that that's that particular area of advertising and marketing law is what I'm really interested in so I've sort of made that decision in my heads that that's where I would have ideally go into although I am flexible but that's why I would say I enjoyed in-house training right now because it's I know what I enjoy and what I can grow into and actually as incredible as it would have been to have gone straight through your undergrad law degree and got the back scheme in year two and then got your training contract by the second you'd finished your LPCOSQE and gone straight through that would have been great of course but you wouldn't have come to all these realizations in the meantime before starting your main job and if you hadn't like taken the path that you did yeah yeah and so there are benefits to doing to doing it either way and just on that point with the training that I'm at now we do I do get sent on sort of a succumbent into private practice for a period of time so I guess that would also be helpful to give me that taste of what private practices I can actually recording my time as we don't do in-house but yeah that would be interesting to see yeah that's probably one thing you're not missing out on this time recording because everyone hates it and actually from speaking to even people on these podcasts who are quite experienced even they didn't know about time for them before they got there it's like something they don't really tell you properly about and yeah actually it's such a big pass of the job yeah yeah I know it really dictates how work and how to go about your day and so yeah that's that's definitely a plus I'm in for a train win and what would you say if someone's undersided between going in-house or or going into private practice what questions should they ask themselves before they make a decision I would say with it would be great to get that vacation scheme experience because I think that was also something in my journey which I understood whether that's something that I wanted to do or not because it's sort of like a taste or like a two week or one week or two week taste of what it's like being in private practice so that can sometimes help you make your decision but I'd say with in-house if you enjoy having seeing how a business sort of makes decisions and being involved in those behind the scenes conversations of why a business is making those decisions then you definitely get that exposure in-house and I think if you you enjoy law but you also want to see that element of business and how they work then that's just a combination working in-house but if you like more structure I'd say and you want to get an understanding of which area of law you want to experience then I'd say private practice is potentially both exploring but yeah it's very it's up to the individual yeah of course and thinking back sort of reflecting a bit I guess do you think there's now that you've got the eight months or so of training experience under your belt? yeah so I've a little bit of training but it's flown by so far so the training for 10 - 10 months now. - So almost a year and a bit now. - Okay. - That's a total qualification. - Yeah. - Do you think that what's one myth about being a lawyer that needs to be busted? - A myth about being a lawyer. I would say, I would say the fact that it's sort of looking back and thinking being a lawyer, I thought it would probably be, it seemed impossible to me if you didn't have particular background, particular grades, went to a non-rustle group university. I thought it would be, in my head it felt impossible, but I would say that's a myth of thinking, can I do it, but it's not really a matter of if you're going to become a lawyer, but when you're going to become a lawyer, that's something that you really want to do. So I'd say a myth is the fact that it seems so out of reach, but it's actually possible if you put your head to it and you're really enthusiastic about the career path. - Don't get too bogged down in the statistics, whether that's EQE pass rates or training contract applications, success rates, or just don't think too much about them, just focus on yourself, right? Because if we all got bogged down in those numbers, then everyone would be put off applying. - Yeah. - And I think it's just getting that foot in the door, isn't it? - Yeah. - And once you are in, I think it doesn't matter what your sort of academic or family or background is, you are proving yourself in the workplace and that's all anybody cares about. And nobody's going to ask you which university you'd like to see when you're like in the middle of your training contract, hopefully not anyway. - Yeah. - The industry is slowly moving away from that, or not as quickly as being it should. - Yeah. And if you could go back in time, what advice would you give to your younger self about law? - I would say just to keep persevering. And I think it's easier said than done. And I remember being given that advice when I was on the other side, applying and feeding very hopeless at certain stages, thinking, am I able to even pursue this career path? But I think just perseverance is something that really helped me through that. And the advice I would give is just keeping a really good support system around you, whether that be friends, family, just people who can push you through to that end goal that you really want, which is in this case qualifying. So those are definitely things that I would say to keep close. - Yeah. One thing we didn't really discuss earlier, but one of the downsides of being on an undergraduate law course is that everyone is going after the same thing, right? - Yeah. - Yeah. People around you are applying for the same things as you, or at least at the same time as you, and I think that can, that sort of competitiveness can really add to what is already a stressful situation. - Yeah. - Yeah. Whereas if you're doing a different degree, people are gonna go off and do like different jobs and stuff and it just might not feel quite as intense at that moment. Of course, the second you get into law school, that's gonna be the case anyway. But yeah, it's definitely an added layer of stress. And have you ever been given any good career advice from someone else? - Yeah, I have, I've had sort of a mentor who has always been really, really good with the advice that she's given. And when doing those applications, she has always told me to genuinely be myself. And I think, again, in my sound like another key show, but it's something that I actually did take away from her journey into law. 'Cause I think in one of her applications, she must have referenced a movie that she had watched in her application. And that's ultimately what led her to getting a training contract and she trained at that firm. So it's something as simple as just being yourself and not necessarily showing a version of yourself that you think that a law firm or a company might want but just genuinely being yourself. And I think once you do start doing that, you'll probably see a lot more how easy the process becomes. - Because stuff like that also makes you stand out in people's minds. And so if you're talking about a movie and your interview, then your interviewers may be more likely to remember you from the person before you who maybe had the same or equally good grades or degree or other hobbies. Or yeah, it's about making yourself stand out a bit and the best way to do those by being yourself, exactly. - And do you think like if you weren't a lawyer, is there another job that you've ever considered doing? - Another career path. I've always wanted to like have my own cafe. - Nice. I feel like that would be nice. - That would be nice. - Yeah, that would be great. - We often get people saying like teacher and therapist and stuff on here, but that's a new one, I like that one. - Yeah, yeah, having my own cafe, sort of a nice chill spot, maybe like a book club slash cafe. But yeah, I think that would be, that would be nice. - Maybe one day, yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about before we finish the conversation? - So anything else? I'd say just because the SQE is quite a. - Yeah. - A hot topic. - Yeah, we can talk about that. - We can talk about that further. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, about, so what about the SQE in particular, would you like to kind of discuss, I guess? - Yeah, so I'd say just the whole process of how, I think going into doing the SQE, you get sort of really overwhelmed by it all, but I think maybe just talking about how, having like a clear sort of structured plan on how to sort of proceed with the SQE itself. And I think there's so many resources out there, and sometimes it can be really overwhelming for students or aspiring solicitors to understand what the right resource is, and some of them are incredibly overpriced as well. And that's, I think, a part of a challenge of it all, because you want to qualify, and it's seen as a more cheaper route to go through, but it's actually, it can be really challenging. - Yeah. - Yeah, I'd say that's definitely something that I'm sure students are concerned about. - Once you've factored in prep courses and things for the SQE, I know there are certain courses, where it's all sort of bundled in, like the prep course and the exam and everything, is it actually cheaper than the previous system? - It doesn't seem like it to me from what I've seen. - Yeah. - If I am being honest, I think with the LPC and the cost of the SQE, I think it probably comes up to either similar, or with the SQE, depending on how many other resources you purchase, kind of maybe a little bit more. But it's quite a shame just because I know that some people do sort of struggle with the finances element of it, and it is marketed to you as sort of a cheaper example. But I think they've actually increased the price for the exam as well, so that can make it quite challenging. But I'd say one thing that really helped me was being part of different group chats with other people taking the SQE and they sort of share their notes, and it's sort of like, from my experience, it was nice to have that sharing system, my you sort of give your notes or to do list or something that helped you, and people sort of shared that. So that helped a lot. And I think looking back, I really enjoyed that community. - And that's not necessarily people who are studying for it, like in the same place or at the same time as you, and doing the same exam, just other people who are doing the SQE. - Yeah. - And how did you find that community, is it just through people you know and the community grew that way or? - Yeah, so it was mostly, for example, through someone I knew would suggest a group chat that they had created. And a lot of the people in that group chat hadn't actually even met in person, but we would sort of, for example, a week or two weeks before the exam, sort of give that advice. And I remember actually doing Zoom calls with some other students and practicing with SQE2. There's a practical element where you sort of interview a client or do advocacy, like presenting to the court, so we would practice with each other. So that community was really, really helpful to have. So that's what I would suggest for students going into it, being a part of that. - Find others who are doing the same thing. - Yeah. - And did you find any good resources online or otherwise about how to pick? - There are so many, of course, or a provider or. - Yeah, yeah. - I was with the University of Law and I really enjoyed that there's sort of like multiple choice questions. It was a really great sort of online system that I would use for SQE1. For SQE2, it got a bit trickier because I think it was slightly different to SQE1 in the sense that it was more practical. So I did use other resources, I think there's one called PrepTackle. I really liked that for SQE2 and the practical element. Devil's Advocate was really good because it's more sort of colourful and not as sort of like a textbook generally would look. So that was quite nice to see that. No form. - And then, sorry, if we discussed this earlier, but did you sort of study for the SQE full time while you were doing it alongside a job? - I can't avoid it. - Yeah, I was doing the SQE full time. So it was a lot more sort of focusing within that period of time to do the SQE, but. I know my friend, she was working full-time but also doing the SQE, which again I understand can be really challenging to do because the SQE in itself feels like a full-time job. With that being said, I don't think it's absolutely impossible. You just need to manage your time and I really cut down on the social aspect of my life with the SQE. So yeah, those postgraduate law degrees are quite intense, but they're not long. So put your head down just for that. Yeah, it's going to be over before you know it. That's good to know, I think a lot of our audience will find that information useful and we will continue to monitor the SQE progress and past rates and how the course and exams develop with time because I think that's the only way they're going to get it right, isn't it? It's by more people doing it and finding out what works and what doesn't. Thanks so much for coming in, I love having you on and it's been so interesting hearing about your job. I think it's going to resonate so much with our listeners. Yeah. Thank you very much. That's great. Thank you for having me.