Brian Burke: A Hall of Fame Conversation

Welcome to 32 Thoughts, the podcast, the special interview edition of the show, Kalbukhaskas Elliott Friedman, Dumshramati, back with you. It is hockey hall of fame, week, the induction, the first part of next week, down in downtown Toronto, the 2026 class, including Patrice Bergeron, Kerry Price, Peccarine, Keith Kitschak, Cindy Curley, and in the builder category this year, the one and only Brian Burke. Elliott, you covered Brian Burke, but we've worked with Brian Burke. You sat on a panel with them for a few years at SportsNet. When that name pops into your head, as I'm sure it does, still even often today, what comes to mind. The first thing I want to say is he did a lot of incredible things for people. And that has to be the first thing that everybody knows about him. He did a lot of incredible things for people very quietly. I will say I ended up on his bad side a couple times. That happens in the job I do. And let's just put it this way, Kyle. I really enjoyed being where I could watch him do nice things for people as opposed to when he was angry at me. One side was a lot more fun than the other, but it was never boring. It was always passionate. I always admired his passion. And again, he did a lot of incredible things for people that others didn't see. And that should be the number one thing people think about when it comes to Brian Burke. Yeah. It really is fascinating. As the stories come in through the next few days and weeks, of course, as we celebrate this year's class and Brian Burke in particular, you know, there's all the stuff that he accomplished as an executive, whether it was with one of his six teams that he worked for in the NHL or his time working for the league, and yet you could write books on all the different ways he impacted the world away from rings too, which is really fascinating. So we're telling you all of this because we had an opportunity to sit down with both Brian Burke himself and his son, Patrick, who works with the Department of Player Safety with the NHL. And it was a wonderful conversation to have both of them playing off each other. Some great stories were told. I thought I could use you know, Elliott, the Brian Burke career has been very well chronicled to this point. But there were still some gems in this conversation that I didn't know about. It was, it was a lot of fun to hear from these two together. They were great and I think everybody listening will enjoy hearing from them too. All right. Let's get to it now. Here is soon to be a hockey hall of fame or officially Brian Burke and his son, Patrick on 32 thoughts, the podcast. So Brian and Patrick, it's such a thrill that both of you here are joining us for this conversation and of course, celebrating Brian as he's about to go into the hockey hall of fame. So Brian, why don't we start there like who you all going to have with you this weekend in Toronto to be there to celebrate the induction, who you're looking forward to to spend in some time with you over the next few days? Well, we have our parties of over 200 people. So we're going to be broke and our hands will be sore from shaking hands, but we're excited about it. It's a big deal obviously. Big deal to me. One of 10 kids from Minnesota didn't start playing hockey till age 13. This is a big big deal to us. You know, Patrick, I'm kind of wondering, when did you first realize that your dad had this job? I remember, my father was an accountant and then he was a home developer and I was interested in some of the things he did, but when did you realize that what your dad did was unique and probably cool in the eyes of your other friends and classmates? I would say understanding it was a job probably happened when we moved to Hartford in '92. I would have been like nine. How old were you at the time? Nine, okay. Nine, yeah. And before that, we were living in Vancouver and I thought I was just hanging with my dear friends, you know, Trevor Lyndon, Pavel Burrey, Kirk McLean, Gene Oljick, like those are just my buddies. And of course, every kid hangs out with those guys and goes out and skates at the practice rank and everything because when you're six or seven years old, you don't know any better. But when we operated the family moved across the country and had a press conference that our family was coming to Hartford, I think something clicked that it was a job and it was a little bit different than what most of my friends' parents were doing. Burkey, did you ever have to tell your kids like, were there rules about where you could go in the room, how much you could talk to the players or coaches, like, how did that work for you? There were, well, Katie wasn't allowed down in the room at all that Patrick was and there were very strict rules. But Patrick, we figured it out right away. He got along really well with all the players and the coaches, Mr. Quinn, Takwin, loved Patrick. So it was easy having him around the room. Yeah, we had dress codes going to games. I think the first time I wore jeans in a hockey game, I was like 22 in college and was like, oh, this is cool. I didn't know you could do that because before that, it was all collared shirts, nice pants. We had to dress properly and shake everybody's hand and nice to meet you, Mr. and so on and so on. We were these little, the most well-behaved rink rats you've ever seen. Did you ever say anything wrong? You remember the first time you said something or like, I shouldn't have said that or Brian's or your dad said, you know what, that's not going to be acceptable. I don't know if anyone else remembers this, but it wakes me up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night. But patio kneel, who was the long-time Kanox trainer, invited me to be a stick boy on the bench in Madison Square Garden when the Kanox came to town. And I would have been like 13 or 14 and I was looking at the stick rack and Cliff Ronning stick was there. And I off-handedly just said, this is the same size stick I use and he glared at me and Cliff had always been so, so kind, one of the nicest people in the world and he gave me a look and walked away and I immediately went, that was a stupid thing to say out loud to an NHL player. And that has woken me up in the middle of the night going on 30 years now about how stupid I could be on that one. That's outstanding. Do you remember what kind of sticky hat I was at the same model stick too? One of the old wooden surewoods, I'm sure with, you know, one of the old school ones that we all miss. Yeah. The earliest memories of wearing dress pants and ties and all that to games. How early are we talking here? Oh, the Pacific Colosseum back when the Kanox played there and my sister Katie and I running around the rank talking to, you know, the Quinn family, the Mackle Hargies, the Murphy's, the Wilson's, all the families that were around there and just, you know, running around that rank like we all in the place, going to games, cheering for, I vividly remember one of my earliest hockey memories was the time Genoel just scored on the penalty shot and the place just went crazy. And dad, I think you said he heard himself celebrating on that one. He threw his back out, celebrating on a penalty shot to, you know, wonderful man. So Berkey, my dad always was like, I'm not bringing work home. And then I remember there was one day and I was in high school at the time. He was, he was, he had a housing development company and they ran into a stone wall on a big project on at City Council and there was a lot at stake and awful lot at stake. And I remember him yelling on the phone for about 40 minutes straight. I remember me and my sisters thinking we have never seen him like this before. And I wonder for both of you, like first of all, Berkey, how careful were you about my work doesn't come home and Patrick, like what was the story like that where you saw your dad like that and you were like, oh my God, like this is a side of my dad, I never want to see again. Well, when we were little, we had a role when the kids were little, I would not turn the phone on until 9 o'clock at night. So when Patrick and Katie were little, I would come home from work, not open my, not took my phone on, not open my briefcase until the kids went to bed, then it would turn on the phone. Usually I'd plug it, I'd hang it back up. When in one minute I get a call from someone and one minute after putting the phone back on the hook. But no, I was cognizant of, Pat was good about that too. Pat Quinn told me, you can't take work home every day. So at 9 o'clock I'd go back to work and usually until 11, 30, 12 o'clock at night. So I got up and wanted to work at 6 in the morning. And for me, like I knew at a young age I wasn't going to be a hockey player, like I self scouted at a real young age and was like, you're not very good at this. So the management side always really appealed to me. So I always wanted where I wanted to like my dad to come home and I'd be saying like, did you get that contract done or do you think you're going to trade for this guy or there's video of my sister Katie pretend interviewing me at our kitchen table in Vancouver about whether Tony Tante should get a two-way contract or a one-way and I think I was like seven years old. So I always craved that. Where it got different was when you get to the age where other kids were reading newspapers or message boards and you know, you'd go to high school and people would be like, you're dad's an idiot. Now I'm like, well, I know that, but why do you know that? They'd say like, you know, you trade it for this guy. where you messed up this draft pick or whatever it was. So, you know, high school in college, when people knew what he was doing, and they could read about it online, or in a newspaper or a sports illustrator, whatever, that's when the stress of the job starts to come on a little bit. - Yeah, when you sit down with the kids and say to them, "Look, your dad's gonna be criticizing and be questioning and insulting." I had a radio show with Dan Russell on Wednesday nights. We could accept it, which is very popular, but a lot of people would call him when I wasn't on the air and say, "I'm stupid," I was. So, I had to talk to the kids about that a lot. - Boy, Berkey, that's tough, man. That's tough. - So, and Brian, like for your kids, if they were interested in your line of work and what you were doing, was there any rules on that front in terms of, did you ever let Patrick or any of your other kids say, "Sit in your office," and just quietly in the corner, if you were taking a call from somebody or anything like that, if they were just out of curiosity, one just to know how the sausage was made some days? - Oh, sure, lots of times. They sat through lots of it. Lots on the car, too. Remember driving on the car, you have to be hands-free and Vancouver, when cell phones very early on, when I was in the assistant's gym, I didn't have a cell phone and Boston, moved to Vancouver at a car phone, and so the kids would listen when you were talking. You had to warn 'em. To look at the kids around the car, just be careful what you say. 'Cause our group is pretty profane. - Yes. - Jesus, I find that really hard to believe, I have to say. - Well, we're watching 32 turds. (laughing) - Now, I should say, for those of you who are unfamiliar, Brian has long referred to my podcast and the blog as 32 turds, much to the laughter of all the people that we've worked with. And we all get a great laugh out of that. Patrick, did you ever know about a trade or a move or anything where you went to school and you said, oh boy, I'd love to tell everybody this, but I can't say a word. - All the time. I mean, the biggest one was the first part of the Sadeem trade was done at Father's Day brunch, a few days before the drafts. So you had to trade for Chicago's first over, I'll pick, so to get fourth overall, and you traded Brian, McCabe, and next year's first. And because the draft was always on my sister Molly and my sister Katie were born June 17th and 19th. So dad was never around for their birthdays, 'cause that was always the draft. So we did Father's Day and two birthdays, the same weekend before the draft. And my dad tried not to take phone calls, where everybody was like, I have to take this call. It's Bob Murray, it's about the twins, I have to do this. And my siblings were fuming that he got up and left the table whenever he said, you know, this is a big one I had to do it, but the McCabe and a first four overall was done then, but no one could know about it till they got to the draft floor so that they could complete the other pieces of the trade necessary to get the twins. 'Cause at that point, correct me, if I'm wrong, you had two and four, and you needed to move up or maneuver it or to make it done, but you had the pick going into it. Yeah, three and four, I've probably had to remember that, I came back to the table, I said, sorry I didn't take that call guys, but I just got the twins. And Patrick correctly pointed out, you don't have the twins said, just have three and four. I said, I know, but whoever gets two of those top four picks will control the steel. Wow. So that's great story, great story. Yeah, 'cause I'll go there then, now Brian, as easy as you bring up, just that timing around that draft. One thing I was told to ask you about was just that trip to the world championships that year to watch the sedines, because I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, like your mind up until going over to Sweden that spring, like you had your mindset on trading that third pick and then seeing them in person at that tournament, kind of change things for you. So what do you remember watching them at that event particular that paved the way for what we know as one of the great draft day moves of all time? Well, we should do credit where credit is to Thomas Green believes in those kids before anyone else did. He told me before the season started, we have to find a way to take both kids. They even said to Thomas, oh, no one's ever drafted second and third or first and second in the draft. How the hell am I supposed to get two of these kids? And Thomas Green said you have to. And we went to the World Junior's in Winnipeg and they weren't very good. They got knocked out when they played Canada and the USA got knocked out more. They were still more time on the ice than the Zembo. Zembonis. And so I said to our staff, as I left it told Mike Penny, we are not drafting a twin. We're going to trade the pick because it was the worst first round ever in the history of the league. And I went, so Thomas Green persisted and said, you've got to go see his kids, but I said, okay, Thomas, I'm going to fly in Norway. I'm going to watch some play three games and we're going to be done with this foolish sense. So the first shift they played wasn't the first shift in the game. They made the tournament as 18-year-olds. And no one makes that tournament in 18-year-olds. They didn't start. Their first shift was really meant like the fourth shift in the game. Hank threw a pass, a blind pass, a saucer pass, about 60 feet. There was no one anywhere near the puck and Danny skated right onto it. And I thought, God, finally I see it. Now I get what Thomas Green was talking about. And the rest was history. You've told this story many times. We always joke with you, hey, did you ever hear that Brian drafted the sedenance? But it really is a great accomplishment. Did you ever think you weren't going to be able to pull it off? And I went to bed. I told my ex-wife, I'm done. I'm screwed. Because we've made the deal. So I hated training Brian McCabe. I love Brian McCabe as a player. I thought he was wonderful as exactly what we were looking for and needed leadership. I loved his wife. His wife was a great team player. Everything was perfect about the scene. It was tough. He could play and leadership skills. I traded him. We went to bed that night. I said to the talk to Rick Dudley. He was a jam in Tampa. I said, we're doing the stealing. And I said, no, we're not. And I went to bed and told my ex-wife, I'm getting fired over this. So his pal Will Brando would have been an ex-player pick. And I hated Pal Will Brando. I hated him as a draft pick. He was a decent player. Nice kid, I'm sure. But I hated him as a player. I said to my ex-wife, I said, I'm getting fired for sure. I just traded Brian McCabe in a first for Pal Will Brando. So what, what, what turned it around then? Like what, what do you think, go open the door for? You did. Well, I'm always, I'm always the first guy to the draft. I get to the draft like three hours before it starts. So I was there early with Dave Noance. We're sitting in Boston at the draft. We're there early. No one's there. We go in there. Chi Chi's the only one there who works at the draft. We're there three hours before the draft. I said to Dave Noance, if Rick W doesn't walk in and say, I've got the deal done, we'll make the deal. I'm five, I'm getting fired. Because we had to offer him two third round picks, or two second round picks. And they asked for two first. I said, no, I'd already traded one first. I didn't like the players that much in the draft. So I said, no. So we hung up and went to bed. And I told my ex-wife, I'm getting fired. Next day, I said to Davey Noance, if Rick does and walk over, as soon as he gets there and says, let's do the deal, I'm done. He walked over and said, let's do the deal. So at that point, we would have one in three and the deal was over for me. We were done at that point. Patrick, what was it like seeing your dad that week? You said you heard the first part of it, but was the stress on him any more or less the normal? Yeah, it was a little more nervousness. Like, he loves the drafts, he loves big trades like that. Like, I'd never looked through all the GM's resumes, but two draft day floor trades for Hall of Famers, 'cause he traded up for Pronger as well. Like, that's gotta be some sort of record for a GM. Three Hall of Famers done on the draft floor. But a lot of nervousness just around exactly that. Like, I've got three and four going into this draft. And if one was Stefan and two was one of the twins, and then he come out of the draft with Brendel and one of the twins, like, that wasn't worth Brian McCabe and the other first he gave up, so. Not even close, not even close to work that. It was a bit of a disaster. Yeah, I have to have a high reward mindset. You have to be willing to run some risk. And then the twins stayed in Sweden for a year and there was like nervousness around like, are they gonna be what we think they could be and watching Mark Crawford work with them and develop them and turn them into the Hall of Famers that they became and watching their hard work. Obviously, they're credit to them as well. But that week leading up to the draft was a little more nervousness than you'd see in a usual way 'cause I love to pepper with questions. Like, tell me about this guy. Tell me about that guy. Do you think this guy can be a good player? And there was a little bit more quiet now. I need to relax type of vibe. You know, Berkey, your career is pretty incredible. You mentioned Pronger, Pavel Bure. Like, there were a lot of big, big moves in your career. And, you know, there's two people in the world, the people who were like, throw me into the deep end. I'll take that deal and there's people like, I'm happy to stay in the shallow water. I want no part of that. Why do you think you were unafraid at doing this? because I worked with Pat. Pat had no fear. Pat was unbelievable. The guts he had, he could have played poker with the Doyle Brunson and beat him. He was unbelievably calm and relaxed and the toughest nails. But to me, the primary deal wasn't that tough. The passing on Paul Carillo was the agonizing part of that. So we traded up to two. Dylan Barney made the deal on the floor. We traded up and took part in over. We were unanimous. Kenny Schinkel and Bruce Harrel served with my chief scouts. I said that we're passing on Paul Carillo. We are going to take a player and pass on Paul Carillo. It was going to be a hall of fame. And you're both comfortable with that. No hesitation. Yep. Kevin Maxwell. Yep. All of our staff. Yep. So that one wasn't that nerve racking. But the twins really worked. The only guy who thought it was a great deal was Thomas Critty and Mark Crawford, like Patrick says. Mark Crawford turned him into players. What are some of the more memorable battles the right word, Brian? But like when you think about draft day and whether it's yourself in the GM or president's role and you get the final say, what are what are some of the years that come to mind? I mean, obviously the twins for sure. But some of the other years when you think about the great discussions amongst your your staff and ultimately leading to the players you end up picking that year. Well, there's some bizarre behavior that goes on. We left the phony draft list at the hotel. When I was in the Hartford when I did the deal for prior, we left the phony hotel at the phony draft list at the hotel where the shoes were the sharks were staying, hoping that Dylan Barney would find it and read the thing wrong. I asked the mayor if he ever said, what are you out of your goddamn mind? Of course that. We thought that might work. So we tried it. I couldn't believe it. Kevin Maxwell. So let's put a phony draft list out. I'm like, okay, we all thought it was a great idea. It was so stupid. The stress you're under, again, the prior deal was a little bit easier. You're making a deal. You remember whenever you make a trade, you think you got the better of it. And Dylan Barney's a smart guy. So we paid a fortune for that day. We got to haul a favor and they have Victor Coslum. So we won the draft. But it was a nervous time. When you hang up your thinking to yourself, I just skidded him and he's thinking to himself, I just skidded you so you know, somebody's going to lose. So it was just requires the right preparation, the right staff and a lot of nerve. I think a real underrated part of his career is the list of players he's traded away. And didn't always regret them. But like my favorite is of the famous Russian lines, you know, the KLM line, whatever. He traded away, Buray, Fedorov and MacYony. One of the great Russian lines of all time. He traded away all three. I'm not sure he regrets any of the trade trades, but like Fedorov forgot about him. That's right, of course. Fedorov for Bolshev'n and Todd Marshant on Wabers, which definitely wasn't Kapsur convention deal done on the side. No, I would do those deals again. Bolshev'n and Bone were really important to us. But it's was the subtraction, addition by subtraction. Certainly Thar was a great player and a good kid. He wasn't interested in being an anion. I'm witty rhythm. He was a pass bet. He played all his years in Detroit. Had success. What's the star? He'd had enough when he got him. So it was a good move in him. And with Buray, we had no choice. He made us move him. It was the third guy Fedorov. He gave me Alamo. Alamo, I loved Alamo, but he was not playing well for us. I had to move him when I got the chance. Great kid. So Patrick, do you think there's any trade that your dad regrets? Oh, how long do we have? Well, I want to hear what Patrick says. I want to hear what he says. I'm just running through a whole bunch of goalies right now and trying to pick one. I think the, I can give you one that they didn't do. Okay. I remember him and Dave known as negotiating aggressively on Mika Kipersov and Aaron Vancouver and not quite getting the deal across the line. And if I remember right, because I was sitting next to them at the table, known he was trying to pull together a conditional pick, which at the time, it's very common now, but teams didn't do it that much. If the guy plays X number of games or his goals against his this or we make the playoffs, it goes from a third to a second or whatever it was. And I think it was just getting too convoluted. But I remember the Kipersov being on the table in Vancouver and years of goal tending problems in Vancouver that that might have solved. At the time, he wasn't unknown. It was a big swing all that, but I remember sitting there listening to the negotiation and then two years later kind of going, oh, that would have been nice. Right. So like this was, Kipersov was still in San Jose at this time. Yeah. And he went to Calgary instead of. Yes. Of course. We know he ended up for sure. But he, did you know that Patrick was going to go follow you into the business? No, I didn't. Patrick. Patrick was a really good hockey player. He said he makes fun of himself, but he wasn't very big. He wasn't a great skater. He was very smart. So right to fans, man, played the position very well. It was a great catcher and baseball too. So I thought he'd be good at whatever he did, but I never pushed my kids to do any of it. My dad never pushed me, so I never pushed my kids. I said, you want to work of a hockey batter? I'll help you all I can. Brennan, Brennan had no one to work in hockey. Why don't we go into politics? But when your 12 and your dad keeps praising out, you're in the right position a lot and something in your brain goes, that means I'm not doing the other thing. Like other dads are going out. You're really fast. You scored a great goal out there and my dad's going, you were in the right spot a lot. And I'm like, I know there's some value to that, but I'm also reading between the lines here. Well Patrick was in high school and he was killing the panel and he shot a puck out in the defense and knocked it down and kept it in. He skated over and they killed the panel. He skated over his coach. What's your coach's name? Mike Brennan. Mike Brennan and they said something to him and I said, what did he say after he said, Berkey, give me a freaking heart attack. I wanted to do the management side, but it was never forced. It was always a choice of the six kids. I'm the only one who went into sports management in a meaningful way. And you know, the girls were the great athletes in our family. They all played high school and or college. But I always wanted to be doing this other side of it. Now, so when you went to your dad and said, Dad, I want to do this. What was his reaction? So I told when I was in college, I went to Notre Dame and I said to him, you know, I think I want to do this. And he said, one, your freshman year grades were not good enough to be able to do this. And he was right. And then two, he said, here's the deal. If you want to start, whatever one needs to learn is you got to learn how to scout. So you can go to the old CCHA, you know, Michigan, Michigan State, Bowling, Green, Notre Dame, obviously. And you can go around and you can scout. And I'll give you $50 plus your gas money. And you give up your weekends in college and your social life in college. And you can drive around and learn how to to bird dog for us a little bit. And obviously jumped up the chance to do that and worked with the connox for a bit, worked with the ducks when he moved there. And you know, guys like Rondellorm and Chuck Fletcher were so awesome, you know, putting up with me and mentoring me a bit. But I didn't take my weekend. I drive out. I'd go watch Bowling, Greenplay. I'd fill out some reports on a form that I had created. I'd send it in. I'd go home and wait for feedback. And you know, they'd call every now and then and say, they got drafts coming up. What do you think of this guy? Or we're talking about this guy as a college free agent. You've seen a bunch. What do you think? And so learning how to watch games at a different level, learning how to fill out reports, learning what it's like to be in a scouting meeting was all really useful. Then when I graduated from Notre Dame, the flyers were looking for someone to do college hockey. And I'd been doing it part time for two years. So Bobby Clark hired me and put me on. And from there was just about, you know, I know I have a huge head start because my last name was Burke. I've never taken that for granted. Like most people who want to work in hockey their first job isn't with an NHL team. And I've always been grateful for that and tried to work to earn that. And I've been working with first with Philly for seven years. And I'm with player safety ever since. Brian Howard Patrick's reports. Yes. Lousey. I started as a scout. I scouted for the flyers my first year of law school. He's telling so I've likely learned how to scout. I said, "What's the pay?" He said, "It doesn't pay." But we'll buy or take a signature to three bucks back then. So I would drive to the games with Walter Tats, Walter Tats, a late great Walter Tats. One of the nicest men I've ever met in my life went through a game of Boston College. Brian Leach was in that game. Kevin Stevens, Doug Brown. Brian Leach was a great lineup. I fill out my reports and Walter Tats looked at and ripped it in half. He ripped it again. He said, "You're too high. You're rating too high. All your college guys are ready to buy." So I did it again. I said, "Nine, two, eight, and sevens." He ripped it up again. said you're too high. Now all those guys I mentioned all played in the NHL but he said you're too high so same thing with Patrick. We all think the players you see a guy who dominates the college game and say well I'll give him an eight when really he's compared to other skaters in his age group he's a six. So I won't start too high Patrick did too. It's the natural progression I guess is when you first cut your teeth in in this gig hey. I will say Chuck Fletcher did tell me one time it was really refreshing reading reports from someone who could write a sentence with proper grammar so the college education the college education was paying off on that side of things. One thing I did want to ask you to Brian like you talked about some of the three biggest mentors in your life Lou Lemarello, Pat Quinn of course and Gary Bettman also you mentioned the fearlessness that pat taught you but in terms of Lou and and Gary like what were what were the things that left a lasting impression on you working for those two. Well Lou did everything right he insisted on doing everything right like we got skates our skates were fitted other teams one guy I would send him box of skates try him on they would come and fit our skates we ordered sticks from the Sherwood factory all those things and Lou said I'm going to give you every edge I can give you as a hockey player you have to respond by giving me everything you've got so Lou Todd's doing right everyone went to school everyone graduated I remember one year we had a defenseman who was held in eligible even though he was eligible under NCAA rules he wouldn't have graduated on time so Lou sat him out for a semester we got it we really needed so it was always done the right way we were taught a certain way and just insisted on excellence he was great great mentor and Gary Gary just Gary's changed the entire national hockey he's the most the most important person in the history of the NHL's Gary Bettman no question my mind the work of him was a great thing now there were times with all three of those guys that I drove them nuts I'm not quiet when I don't agree with someone so that's sort of a real shock I know well it and it's it's it's it's new as a great I can't believe the mentorship I got from those three others too I have two older brothers my dad had other guys I play with Dan Kennedy I play with was a great mentor but those three were huge and shaved my life and held my life immensely okay so the other thing I just kind of wanted to know Brian was you ran player safety for a long time and I remember some of the fight I remember you going on radio with Bob McCown and the two of you were screaming each other when you heard that Patrick was going into the department of player safety what did you say I said are you sure I mean it's different by the time it involved when I took over Gary Bettman came to me and said all right I want you to write a new we didn't call players safe then I want you to write a new description for the job you said you sit down with the impolver from the NHLPA you write a system that works for the players it says it's got to work for the players Gary was so far ahead of his time he said don't think of a system we can make the players accept let's draft it together so I said the impolver okay what's the number one thing the players hate they hated Brian O'Neill would make them fly the late great Brian O'Neill would make them fly to New York from California wherever they were planned and give them one game so that's why he said okay four games are fewer you don't need to have a year I came right from the union finds versus suspensions I came right from the union so we worked out a system Tiger was the runner even today if I'm in doubt whether a player is going to be suspended for three games or four he gets three if I wasn't sure his suspension at all he gets nothing you might get fine but it was all designed by the players with the players consent that's why I find a comical sometimes when he and we'll be screaming at me about something and a hearing I'd be like this was all you're doing you just disagree on the number of games but I think player safety was a big very we're very new at it then you didn't have all the replays had people were fat actually me taped all the time they played a game in Quebec City there wasn't any television coverage so I'm going to do something stupid that it's asked me where he's going to be tomorrow they'd FedEx me to take it was crazy it was so antiquated then I used to open them before he got home and watched them and then he'd walk in the door and I go I think it's a suspension I think it's five games right I think it's I think it's two games and he's like well you let me get in the goddamn door and like put my briefcase down and watch the tape myself and I'm like I already watched it don't bother like you're good and he's like just let me go watch the tape myself a couple of biggest fight the biggest fight couple those tapes ended up getting broken and transferred mysteriously also tampering so yeah someone was paying somebody off at the airline that's great now what was your biggest what was your biggest fight running like the biggest argument you got in Burkey running that department well there were a couple guys that were really bad Pat Quinn was my best friend I loved him but he was really bad on suspensions so I gave Geno old trick four games one time he tried to fight everyone on the ice tried to fight all five skaters on the ice and Pat Quinn called me up and started yelling I was driving back to Hartford and he was four hour two hour driving he yelled at me for an hour finally high up on him but he said to me the only problem is Brian you didn't he never called me Burkey he called me Brian you're promised you don't know you don't know enough about hockey to do this job I still I I do not want hockey but as you're right head man I hang up on him but him and and Pier Laquois two two late great Pier Laquois Pier Laquois when you remember when Peter Forrest were they clipped in the face in the eye by Billy Garrett and Evan so they're playing in Edmonton they got the goal yeah Peter Forrest where it goes to score at an empty net or the goal is in the net but he thinks he has a shot Billy Garrett and chops him across suddenly right so the right shot coming across slashes is right are trying to disrupt the shot it clips the clips to your first round in the cheek he got six stitches and we had an agreement with the PA that anything under 10 stitches was a shaving cut so this is nothing so I'm driving but I did a game and fill it at night I'm driving back after the game and Gary Pier Laquois calls me and goes it's worse than the Kennedy assassination I said I'd father Pete what's what's going on he said Peter Forrest Burke Billy Garrett just tried to be head Peter Forrest Burke you got to suspend him for life I said hey I so I called Dave known as I said we taped that came right we're only allowed to tape four games but only record four games that's all we had to capacity to do so I said to Dave Norris who was on the island at a game that night so tell me we taped that game he said yeah but it's near the end of the game sometimes they ran to glass broke or something you run out of tape oh car so I said you you get home and find out what's going on I'll meet you in New York I'm driving up the bird trip right now Gary calls me what the hell happened that's not Gary how would I know I'm driving home for Christ thing it was at the game until we I don't know what happened he said well it sounds bad so he watched the tape clips from on the cheek I call him and said there's no suspension here it's not even a fine not even one again he said well if you don't suspend it for the balance of the playoffs I will not be satisfied I said well I guess you're not satisfied Pete hang up on them those really test it at the time Patrick you got any like those I mean George George Parallels might or Shanny might or Stefan can tell the they don't let me speak out of turn I'm not the head of the department so they don't turn me loose very often and I think when you're when you're six five like George I think people tend to be a little more careful with what they say than those things but yeah I mean the GM's haven't changed they're still very passionate and they they want to make their feelings known when when we do something so there's plenty of times that we we hear from people at teams about something they think we've we've messed up okay Berkey I have two questions two topics for you I want to ask number one about hockey today number one you sing all this like this year has been unbelievable the teams used to have all the power the players are starting to try to take it back Kudzerov, Larkin, Helibock all different degrees if you were a manager and you were dealing with all this what how would you handle it let's not know it's just more concentrated the fellow burrow very pulled the same same garbage on me came in and said I'm not going to play I had to trade them there's a superstar it's a Hall of Famer I mean that's Kudzerov's a really good player I think Pavel was a better player you get argue about it but it's not new and players have always had a lot of power they just said it's been concentrated and misused more now because the player has a degree so a five-year deal length comes in and asks for a trade after two years I don't get that so the league's gonna have to address that at some point a player who has a no trade and ask for a trade should have to wave his no trade but that's that's the nature of the beast that's the game we're in and you have to deal with it in my view Kudzerov's different for me I think that's just a doing it on Brisbane, setting a great job around his team. He does one over pay. Time out of eight year deal for this guy, a seven year deal. He's not gonna play seven more years to the high level on my view. So to get it to four years, he didn't work so much. But I respect that admire. What a concept. We're gonna fight over money. What a concept. It's a hard cap system. Every dollar you save is spent on another player. What a concept. Let's fight over the money. I used to fight over the money all the time. Okay. Go ahead, go ahead. Can I call on that one? Yeah. No trades, Brian, and the no moves. Of course, naturally, that's been under the spotlight here with everything going on. I mean, you've lived it on both sides in a sense. It was much different back in the day. But what do you think about that? Because for all the arguments of, well, should there be something that can be given out? I mean, it's collectively negotiated. Both sides have to agree to it. What's your feeling on no trades and no moves? Here's a concept. Don't give 'em. Like arguing over money. Don't give no trades. You should have to give one to maybe one player a year. One player a year on a team. Some teams have 10 guys with restricted trades. Don't give 'em. I never give a full no trade no move in my life. I don't think. Now, I know it's hard now. I have a superstar. Palo Berry came in right now. I asked for a full no trade no class. I probably didn't plan to give it to 'em. But back in the day, I'd say no. We're not even talking about that. Then I said, "Give me 10. I'll give you a 10 team, no fly's home." You don't give 'em total freedom on that. Don't give 'em autonomy on that. Okay. Now, you were GM in Vancouver. You were the boss in Toronto. I have a saying I like to give before Rodgers fires me. And I know Berke you hope that soon. But before Rodgers fires me, I want to cover a Canadian team winning the Stanley Cup. You lived it. You tried your best. Do you think that we will see a Canadian team win the Stanley Cup in the next decade? Yes. And I bet you it's Montreal or Edmonton, but I think Montreal is closer than anyone. Look, we operate in Canada under a decided disadvantage with the tax structure. No question about it. Anyone says it's not real is dreaming or drunk. So the fact of the matter is, that 93 drought going back to Montreal winning a 93 is very real. It's based mostly on economic and tax factors. That being said, someone's gonna figure it out and someone's gonna win and we've got two teams right now who are fairly close in my view. All right. So one thing I did want to ask about too, I was going through the book I have a year as Brian. Birx Law, I came out a few years back. I was going through the conclusion at the end. I wanted to-- I heard that Birx made you pay full price for that, by the way. Yeah, I was happy too. It was a great read. So when you're talking about the things you do care about, Brian, you say, I am honest. I am ethical. I care deeply about the communities where I have lived. I'm a devoted dad. Education is critical. Community work is critical. Self-improvement. Honest self-evaluation. You have to admit, when you make mistakes, having a moral compass, doing the right thing, all of that matters to me and you can stop right there. So Patrick, I wanted to ask you. I mean, growing up with a father that's wired that way and then even for yourself into adulthood, what was that like? You mean the love of run-on sentences or the-- (laughing) Boy, you are your father's son, man. You are your father's son. I remember reading that part and being like, where's the, this is just, where there's too many commas here. Where's the peer anyway? Look, I think one of the things my dad always instilled in us is that working in hockey is a privilege and it comes with a lot of amazing benefits for us as kids and for us as a family and that if you believe that hockey has a special place in the community's heart, which I think we all do, that you need to use that sport to give back to the community in a lot of different ways. So from a young age, like, you know, it might be Thanksgiving and we were at a food bank drive in, you know, and I'm ducks, colors, sanding out food or, you know, kind of place still holds a special place in all of our hearts and making sure that when he was in Vancouver, we would go and visit. Obviously our work with the LGBTQ+ community is near and dear to our hearts. Our work on behalf of women's hockey. My dad's worked with the military, ducks unlimited. You can kind of run down a very diverse and broad group of ways that we were raised to give back and use hockey for good. And I think that's probably the thing I'm most proud of him and his career is what he's done. You know, you look at other organizations, other GMs, present and hockey ops who don't do nearly as much work as he does. And I think that was something we're really proud of was a family something that mattered to us and something that gave us a lot of pride when we were walking around wearing a jersey or a t-shirt with canucks or ducks or leafs or whatever of the seven teams he's worked for logo we were wearing. We knew that it was a team that cared about the community. We knew that it was a team that was going to utilize its players to give back demand that its players be active and involved members of the community in which they were playing. And I think that's really important. Hockey's an amazing sport. We're very lucky that we get to do this for a living. And with all the benefits that come with it, the fame, the money, the access to different things, it should be a given that you're using that to give back in different ways that are important to you. - That was six teams, Patrick. - Six, not seven, only two words, sorry. - Sorry, you went to Vancouver twice. I forget how many times you've been fired sometimes. (laughing) Patrick, what's your favorite non-hockey memory of your dad, like something that you remember that's not hockey related? - Going fishing with them was great. The Lengar-Large Lodge was a great time. And certainly something that we loved. Family road trips were always an entertaining one, although a lot of times they were hockey related 'cause we'd drive and go to a hockey school or something. But we had this big, like one of those conversion vans with the TV up top and two pilot's chairs and the back seat would fold down and whatever would pile all the kids and some of our friends into that. And it'd be like, hey, we're going to Atlanta. And it's like, all right, Warren Boston, how are we getting to Atlanta? And he's like, everyone in the van, off we go. And those are the moments where you're like, don't you make a lot of money as a GM? Like, why are we driving right now? (laughing) But those types of family trips were always something that we really loved. The other one I'll throw out is a couple of years ago we did a safari in Africa. - Nice, great. - When my grandfather passed away, my dad took that money that he had left and took us all on safari, 'cause that's something he and his dad had done way back when. So an amazing trip to see a part of the world that we had never seen before. That's real high on the list of family memories as well. - That's a pocket list, definitely. - I took Patrick and Brennan Fish and a Vancouver one time. They caught two fish. And the guide says the Patrick. Patrick, bring me your fish and Brennan goes, "The big fish were little fish." (laughing) - He caught a bigger fish. - He caught a bigger fish. - That's awesome. So what are some of your favorite fishing stories, Brian? - Mine. Probably my biggest fish, my biggest salmon, which is 57 and a half pounds, which is very big. - Oh. - How long did it take you to reel that one in? - About an hour. Well, I took Jeff Sanderson out to the same lodge, same guide, same spot in the water, same time in the morning, and Jeff Sanderson caught a 77 pound salmon in the same place. Biggest fish ever. And Sandy is my turn to fish. And it sounded so big. I said, "Sandy, that's a huge fish. You take it. What a dummy." (laughing) But then, I'll tell you what he did with the fish. He'd pack it up. He'd have it flayed on sight. He'd fly down, and when we landed at Vancouver Airport, we'd drive right to come out of place and drop off a cooler full of fresh, fresh caught salmon. So the families, all the kids, anyone there would get fresh caught, Alaskan or BC salmon that day, right off the, you know, was caught that morning or the day before, brought down, flowed down, and we'd drive. We'd already be exhausted. He'd been session and in the sun and drinking for four days, and he'd go right to Kenock Place and make sure that those kids got something special. - That's fantastic. - That's awesome, Seth Burkey. You know, you, I know this is a big family weekend. You mentioned Brandon there, and I know he won't be far from all of your thoughts, and just maybe how he's going to be such a big part of the weekend for the Burk family. But we mentioned, whenever people ask me how many kids I have, I always say, "Sex." We always mention Brandon. I don't want everyone to forget him. I'll never forget, but I don't want other people to forget him. So we're excited about Brandon being involved. We're going to mention him and talk about him. He'll be there. No question. We bought a horse for the Toronto Police Service years ago. And only I told him I'd buy a horse if I could name it. And I named it Moose, was it Brandon's nickname. Most the horse just retired two years ago, so we have most two points know I bought for the Toronto Police Service. Moose is going to be at the Hockey Hall of Fame, greeting all the people who come to our party on Sunday night. So mostly they're marina solid branding. No, Patrick for you. For me, I think that part of the thing I'm most proud of is that you know my dad's going in as a builder and I think a large part of that if you ask people around all of famous is the community work and the work he's done to broaden and build the game of hockey and a large portion of that is his work with the LGBTQ+ community thanks to Brendan. So for me, obviously my dad is earned this the Hall of Fame induction but this is a tribute to Brendan as well and Brendan's courage. If Brendan hadn't been willing to come out you know 16 years ago now when Brendan came out publicly you know before the age of heated rivalry and off-campus before this was so commonplace to talk about before the Brock McGillis and Luke Pro Cops and band-patenters of the world. So for me this my dad's induction isn't part a family thing and in part because Brendan had the courage to try and change the hockey world for the better and my dad had the love and the courage to stand up with them. So we're definitely going to be thinking of Brendan this weekend and celebrating his courage and what he did and I just hope that for the hockey community I think this is recognition about doing the right thing and standing up for the people you care about because when Brendan was coming out all those years ago there was a lot of conversations behind the scenes about if he should come out publicly is this going to be distracting for the Leafs should the GM of the Leafs be kind of using some public capital on this thing or is this kind of just going to be a distraction. I remember some articles that were written around whether my dad was fully focused you know around free agency when the pride parade was happening and stuff and my dad did the right thing. He stood up for his kid, he stood up for a community that needs to feel welcomed in the hockey world and hockey's recognizing that 17 years later and so for anyone out there who's wondering about doing the right thing is it going to come as a cost? Is it going to come with some penalty or harm to your career? I would just say that hopefully this weekend is recognition that doing the right thing pays off even if it might take a while. And Patrick of course you were such a driving force behind getting the you can play initiative up off the ground so it loves you for that and Brian if you don't mind me asking how did Brendan the nickname Moose come to be? What's the story with that? He was the biggest kid. He was six four as a huge kid and I used to call him Moose from very early age. One year I bought him goalie pads. He grew eight inches between the start of the season and Christmas time. Sixth since the end of being six four so I called him Moose for years. So after we had a chance to get this horse I said only if I bid to name him we call him Moose and I'm Moose 2.0 so he will be outside the hockey hall of fame on Sunday night after our party and anyone wants to come by and take a picture. I'd love to see you. What was your nickname for Patrick? Patty. Oh okay. We're imagining it. Yeah there's two people in the world who call me Patty and it's my dad and then Dave known as Uncle Davey so. So Berkey how long do you have to speak three minutes? Is that what it is? Six. Six minutes? Yep. Man you had ten minutes. You had ten minutes to work that long. Yeah, oh my god. We've taken a hatchet to the speech about four times and we're still trying to trim some of the fat. Yeah. Might be a little longer than six. We'll see. I promise I promise Kelly Massey wouldn't be so I'm going to try and do six. They're going to have a giant hook for you right next on the stage. They're going to pull you out. Depends on how many towns they get interrupted for applause. So Patrick have you helped them write it at all or like who's who's all the brain trust in this? Yeah. We're usually my my sister's Molly and Katie help on things like this because they're tremendous PR minds and speech givers but my dad wants it to be a bit of a surprise for them so we're chipping away at it. They put my dad put together the nice framework and now we're just trying to trim where we can. It's just you know it's been in the game for 40 years and you don't want to leave anybody out but you also can't thank like you go city by city six stops and you say you know we want to thank the assistant GM's the assistant coaches the coaches the executive assistants he said some amazing executive assistants over the years the equipment managers and all the sudden at each stop you've got 10 names it's like really can't leave that person out they were so instrumental in this and we can all the sudden after six stops you've got 200 people that you desperately want to thank and acknowledge and it's just not gonna happen. I'm looking forward to some feelings will be hurt but screw them. So just for both of you we've first of all thank you so much for allowing us to do this with you but secondly is there anything both of you either of you want to say that we haven't given you a chance to say like I'm sure there's so much on your mind this week anything else you want it to add. I'm just grateful for everything that's happened really yeah it's all I want to say is thank you I'm not mad at anyone this weekend. Well that's nice. We'll see if we can change that Burkey. And I think I said what I kind of wanted to say before I've just that so proud of my dad everything he's done you know so much of his career is really unique and you could say that playing pro hockey winning an American league championship and then going to Harvard Law like that's a lifetime accomplishment for most people like if your kid played pro hockey then what the Harvard Law you'd be like I did pretty good and then after that he went on want to Stanley Cup won a silver medal that 2010 U.S. Olympic team doesn't get talked about and not they were a hit a hit crossbar away from a gold medal a couple other great rebuilds and teams big trades Hall of Fame drafted Hall of Famers traded for Hall of Famers all of that and none of that even touches the the charity work and what he did to build a build hockey into a better more inclusive game like more people feel safe and included in hockey rinks because of him then and because of almost any other hockey executive in the last 40 years and I think that's a really cool thing to be able to say as someone's kid that you know the women of the PWHL LGBTQ members of our the hockey family new people who are coming to this game all the time consistently feel more welcome in the rank because of him I think that's a really cool thing to be able to say as someone's son that's wonderful Brian the last thing I wanted to ask you when you walk up on that stage next week will you do so with any regrets from your journey oh yeah lots of regrets but we need another hour I made lots of mistakes you can't you we all do you don't think for the senses you can't they don't run I mean lots of mistakes they may not take an hour long speak I'm not being funny would take me an hour to go through the regrets I had I'm not talking about how I've been really kind because this is a celebration if you guys bring me back in a week I can run through all the other things that I have stories so the the the bad ones both both of you are always welcome here Patrick that gum was not loaded oh this has been such a thrill oh seriously thank you both for all the stories and and the time and and congratulations again Brian and and to you Patrick to the whole Burke family thanks so thanks once again to both Brian Burke and Patrick Burke excellent conversation there and we wish them all the best in celebrating what should be a really special weekend in Toronto with the Hall of Fame induction ceremony that'll do it for the special edition of 32 Thoughts the podcast back to our regularly scheduled podcasting on Thursday morning