Brené with Father Richard Rohr on Breathing Under Water, Falling Upward, and Unlearning Certainty, Part 1 of 2

Hi everyone, I'm Brane Brown and this is Unlocking Us. (upbeat music) Today I am talking to someone who is really shaped and blessed my life in profound ways, Father Richard Roar. This is part one of a two part special. I actually flew to Albuquerque and met with Father Richard at the Center for Action and Contemplation. It was an incredible trip, just a beautiful space, holding beautiful ideas and beautiful people. I don't know what else to say. We had Richard on earlier this year talking about infinite love. And we're gonna dig into some of my quotes from a couple of my favorite books and we're gonna talk about, I guess the things that are really matter the most. I'm glad you're here. What to make of a life is the new book from Jim Collins, best-selling author of Good to Great. Based on 10 years of research, what to make of a life offers transformative teachings on what it takes to navigate your way through periods of fog, to make it past life's inevitable cliffs and to keep the inner fire burning bright, long and late. Step into frame with What to Make of a Life by Jim Collins, available from Harper Collins this April, wherever books are sold. What is your pre-performance ritual? What are you doing 24 hours before that big meeting, an hour before your race? I'm Rebendredson, VP and head instructor at Peloton and Post of Project Swagger. And this week, every step I take to lock in ahead of high stakes, high stress events. This is your performance toolkit. Follow Project Swagger now wherever you get your podcasts. Before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about Father Richard. He is a Franciscan friar and teacher and internationally recognized author and spiritual leader. He teaches primarily on incarnational mysticism, non-dual consciousness and contemplation, with a particular emphasis on how these affect the social justice issues of our time. He is the author of, I don't know, 60 books. And he has been a huge influence on my life. I wanted to connect with him about his writings and ask him about a number of my favorite quotes. And so in this episode, we focus on his writing in "Affis Book is So Dang Good." Breathing underwater, spirituality in the 12 steps. We talk about the cult of innocence, permission to make up prayers, a little bit on living as an in-eogram one, which I don't think I realized he was, but I am. The thing that made me so mad at church that I had to leave. And I'm relenting and humiliating grace. Father Richard. - Yes. Good day. - Good day. I'm so, I can't even tell you what it feels like to be with you here. - Really? - Yes. - That's so humbling. Thank you. Bernays here at our center in Alvacurky. - It feels special here. It does. - Well, it is. We have good people and good places. Our little, we have three facilities on this one street. So people from the neighborhood called it Vatican City, along it. (laughing) And the Franciscan Church is on the corner. And my little hermitage is behind that. So everything's in this one mile long road. And that interesting. - That's a special mile. - Well, it is. In fact, one of the people who worked for the city said this neighborhood, and this poor part of town, as you can tell. But it has the lowest crime rate of the whole city of Alvacurky. And he attributed it to us. I don't know if that's true. I doubt if it's true, but it wasn't a loving thing to say. - And your tree. - The two beautiful trees. Yes. - I don't know what I expected. I've been reading about the center for so long. And I didn't know what it would look like, but I thought I knew what it would feel like. And it feels like what I thought it would feel like. - Oh, that's good to hear. - Yeah. - That's right. And it is talked about in a number of books. - Yeah. - And I don't have great experiences there. And it's like the work of art. We have a lot of art around the place that's sent to us. But this one was here already. And it will gather us, I think. - It gathered us. - Yes. - And now it's gathered me. Which I was right for the gathering. Now it was ready. - I was glad of that. Very glad. Thank you. - Well, we're going to do a two-parter that you've generously agreed to do. And the first part is the two books, I think, all of your books have had messages for me that I told you this before we started. Change me and really made me angry. And then they made me angry then they changed me. Is that how it works sometimes? - Oh, we got them. That's beautiful. 'Cause that's true. That's where it worked. Yeah, go ahead. I want to hear. - Okay. So the first book is Breathing Underwater, Spirituality and the 12 Steps. - Hmm. - So I've been sober 26 years. - Oh, kidding. - Yeah. And this has been a big book in my life. - Did you have it already at the beginning of? No. - No. - No. - I didn't have it in the beginning, but I had the week it came out. - Really? - Yeah. - The tapes are the book. The book. - I think it must have been the tapes 'cause I think I listened to it my car first. - Yeah, they came out first. That's right. It was only in later years that I made it into a book. - Yeah. - Yeah, so. - Well, thank you for your trust. - So I want to start with, I've grabbed four or five quotes. The first one is several sentences long, so I thought we'd break it up. And the first thing I want to talk about is this quote. "When religion does not move people to the mystical or the non-dual level of consciousness, it is more a part of the problem than the solution whatsoever. It solidifies anger, creates enemies, and is almost always exclusionary of the most recent definition of sinner. At this level, it is largely incapable of its supreme task of healing, reconciling, forgiving, and peacemaking." - Wow. I know, what good day did I say that on that? That says a lot in one paragraph, 'cause forgive me, but it's true. It's really true. If you don't come to the contemplative mystical and non-dual mind, Christianity ends up being more a part of the problem. I hate to be so critical of my own religion, but I think the recent years have proven it. The amount of Christians who are racist or misogynistic or greedy, we're not really transforming people in the modern age. I think we did at one time in culture, but now it's an accoutrement for our superiority, our saving us, our. - I reread it before this podcast, and I wonder sometimes I think about my church and other churches. - Sure, if the people who run churches gather and say, "Don't forget everybody," our supreme task is healing. - Yes. - Do you think that's happening? A church is around the world? - No. At least not in the Northern Hemisphere. You'll find little churches in Africa and South America where the majority are such suffering people that the message can't be avoided. It's everywhere, but we can avoid it here. We've created what I've been calling lately, and I'll try to explain this sometime in our talk, a cult of innocence. - What does that mean? - I know that I think a lot of people become Christian or remain Christian to prove that they're right, to prove that they're innocent, they're good, they're holy. It doesn't create a flexible personality that is ready to change, which is the first words Jesus used, just translated repent, which of itself is a terrible translation, 'cause the word repent connotes nothing like the word chain. - Now. - Really doesn't. So this cult of innocence, you see it in though, a quick need, a lot of Christians have to blame other people. I mean, just listen to the news or interview people. It's always, well, the Jews did that to us or the blacks did that to us, it's always scapegoating, projecting our evil elsewhere so I can be deemed innocent. I can be deemed saved. It's a tragic place we've got ourselves into. I don't think it was always this way, but the post-modern mind which created critical thinking, Christians decided not to buy into that. (laughing) They did. We don't need critical thinking. Well, we Catholics called it the Protestant instinct to protest everything. It's an anti-stance. Now, it doesn't have to be, but it often is. And until you get beyond the anti-stance, I'm here to change other people to get other people to join my club. I don't think he got true religion in even close. It's just a belonging system that tells me I'm right. That's deductive though, isn't it? Oh, it is. To the ego, especially, right? And I only gained the self-confidence to talk that way. I mean, one, I've been a priest fifty two years now. By observing, just observe the patterns, hearing in so many other countries. You said something I didn't respond to. What'd you say? That it's deductive to the ego? Seductive to the ego. That's it. See, we never, mainline Christianity didn't really attack the ego. It attacked the shadow. And we learned how to hide our shadow. I mean, that's the name of the game. That's the name of the game. It's Shahid, it's Heideh, it's Heideh. That's what I mean. It's a cult of innocence. Now when you spend all your time fighting the shadow instead of the ego, you end up with people who can live in high levels of illusion. I mean, let's use a dramatic symbol. A religion that can justify slavery is so far from anything Jesus talked about, but that large percentage could buy it. Yeah, this is what Jesus expected. I was just reading this, writing letters that freed slaves sent to their former masters. And they're, oh, they just make you weep. They weren't vengeful letters. They were just, why did you do this? Why did you treat my little daughter, my little boy and my husband this way? And when you read it, you say it was once that real for people. Yeah. Oh, God. And they were dealing with the leftovers of it in our racist culture. Yeah, every day. But we refuse to call it racism. It's something else. And a lot of white churches are doubling down. You're absolutely right. It's just hard to believe. I mean, especially when I think about this, like, could you imagine going to a church that where the task was healing, reconciling, forgiving and peacemaking? That's why I think the Sunday after George Floyd was murdered, I thought, boy, if that's not the topic of every sermon and every church. We're missing. We're missing something. Something major. That's so true, Brunei. When I was helping Francis McThott, he was a Dominican priest who restarted the healing ministry in the Catholic church in the 1970s. And I served on these teams several times. And he used to say often in an opening talk, most Catholics don't even know the word healing applies to the gospel. The gospel is much more about, forgive me. I can get away with saying it because I'm a priest. I guess I can. Is about punishing, not healing. And everything according to the depth of the sin, deserved a greater and greater punishment. Now, when you're concentrating on reward punishment, you never get to healing. Those are two different tracks. Such duality and punishment. Yeah. Yeah. Reward punishment. Where you did find those characteristics that you read there is in many, not all, but many black inner city churches who healing is on the first sentence out of a lot of people's mouth. And I suspect that was the crowds that followed Jesus. They had nothing left except to ask for healing. How different than asking for salvation, which keeps you selfish. Yeah. You got it. A lot of people don't get that. The desire for salvation is basically a mercenary, egotistical desire of my own self-preservation. Yeah. It's definitely self-protection, right? It doesn't demand an altruistic personality in the least. It's self-focus, not other focused, right? There you go. Yeah. Let me go into this because this is the sentence that I've probably read. No joke. I can't wait. 100 times. It's still part of this. Let me hear it. So this is a continuation. When religion does not give people an inner life or a real prayer life, it is missing its primary vocation. Let me sum up then the foundational ways that I believe Jesus and the 12 steps of AA are saying the same thing, but with different vocabulary. Oh, here we go. This is big. We suffer to get well. We surrender to win. I worked on that. Go ahead. Let me hear it. It's been years. Yeah. I mean, it's incredible. We surrender to win. We die to live. We give it away to keep it. This counterintuitive wisdom will forever be resisted as true. It'll be denied and avoided until it's forced upon us by some reality over which we are powerless. And if we are honest, we are all powerless to the presence of full reality. Thank you for trusting that. That was an inspired day when I wrote that. Thank you for appreciating. God bless you. I mean, we suffer to get well. We surrender to win. We die to live and we give it away to keep it. Yeah. This does not feel like the world we live in. No. The gospel is totally counterintuitive. It isn't what we think it should be. We suffer to find who to blame for the evils of the world. You know, it's very different. It was, I don't know where there was you or Anlamot because in the version of the book that I have, Anlamot wrote the forward and someone said, "For all the things that we are finally able to give away, they all have claw marks on them." Wow. She is so good. It was a delight to teach with her. Don't worry. Had to say that at the same table, we're on a panel. You know, I just keep looking over at her. She's a little genius. She really is. Oh, yeah, for sure. Spiritual. Spiritual. Yeah. I want to fight to win. I don't want to surrender to win. Yes. I don't want to. No. And if you make me honest, I'd say the same thing. No, not surrender to win. No. That's why I know you've read falling up. Oh, yeah. It's the second half of life religion, which is used almost entirely in Western cultures as a first half of life religion to create a container for me to live my life inside of and feel safe and superior. Safe and superior sounds so good. And feels so good. What do you think about made up prayers? Because I'm asking because I made up a prayer. Good. From a sentence in breathing underwater. I made up a prayer from one of your sentences and I say it to myself all the time. Let me hear it. Are you ready? Yes. I am trapped by certain grace and enclosed in the constant need for mercy. It's lovely. Well, you wrote it. Oh, I did. It's how self-centered I am. I know. I just turned it to a prayer because I think to myself, I don't want to surrender to win. I don't want to die to live. I want to fight. I want to fight on all these. And I don't want to give anything away to keep it. I want to fight for it and keep it. I want to fight. I want to fight all the time. Are you an aid on the end of your gram? I'm a one. Oh, you poor thing. You're like me. Yeah, we're both one. He is two. Yeah. Yes. Oh, this is a good energy in this room. We can get stuff done, that's for sure. You're a one. You have such a nice smile. What? No, a lot of ones don't know how to smile. It takes this man a while to smile, too. But he does. You do. But you have to work on him for a while. It's really hard. Because you're like recording the podcast for us and we're talking about you and you feel like you can't talk back. See, and I know he can take it. He's home. Because he's a one. He's a one. Yeah, because I want to fight. I want to fight for everything. Yeah. And win and do it right and play by the rules. Do it right. Then we remain inside of the quid pro quo universe, which is the one we prefer or two plus two equals four. Yes. That's what we want. Yes. And you changed that equation. It's only a non-dual mystical God-touch person. who can be comfortable with it. Where it's no longer two plus two equals four, but I put my two in, I put another two in, and I get back eight or something like that or six. Yeah, that's terrible. Yeah, because I'm not in control anymore. Oh. So you could pro-probe gives you control by good behavior. And we ones learned it real well. Almost all of us had one rather demanding parent. For me, it was my mother. Most people, this is their father, but my mother and I was her favorite. So I never felt her rejection or anything, but that underlying demand that her love was conditional. I'll love you, Dickie, if and I knew that from age one, you know. Oh, yeah, I'm the good girl, the oldest afforded girl, the good girl, the good girl, nicknamed sister superior. You laughing. Yeah. You know, speaking of number one, the integram and the quid pro quote, let me tell you the thing that made me so mad at church one day that I almost had to leave. I've a year. The vineyard parable. Oh, go ahead. So I loved it, though, because because Joe Reynolds the DM and Episcopay and in the dean at our church said he called it the unamerican parable. Sorry, good. Yeah, it was the whole idea that workers got there at six in the morning and they were excited because this person paid well. And then their workers came at noon and workers came at three and everybody got paid the same. And it was a fair wage. But if the people have been working there the longest, it doesn't it goes against every instinct. No, you know what I was thinking. I was I hope your cart breaks down on the way home and it cost you exactly the amount that you got overpaid. Oh, clever, clever. But terrible, right? Yes. It should be preached twice a year in every American church because we don't believe it. We don't like it. It's wrong. It's wrong. And I've had people tell me that in the vest bill. In my opinion, that parable is precisely to undo the quid pro quo worldview and precisely. But and that means nothing to God is what Jesus saying. Yeah, like like God saying, you're going to get my grace. Whether you like it or not, this is my prayer. I'm trapped in certain grace and enclosed in the need for constant mercy. This does not make me happy. God, it doesn't know because I'm on the receiving end. I'm vulnerable in you figured it out. Without vulnerability, you can't get the gospel. You just can't. If it's another steering exercise, a way to steer my life. It's more complicated than that. It's not in control. Not surrender, but control. And you can weaponize it. What easily? In fact, it most often is. I think it was really funny. I was teaching vacation Bible school and I thought, I'm going to teach these fourth graders that vineyard parable. And so what I did is I had monopoly money. And I said to three or four of the kids, I had 20 kids start doing jumping, jumping jacks right now. And I'm going to give you $100 of monopoly money. And then I had some kids start later and some kids start and only do it for like 20 seconds. And I paid them all the same. And the kids that had been doing it the whole time were like, the first one said, you suck, ma'am. I said, what? You suck. I'm telling my parents. And I said, what are you telling them? I'm telling them, you're not fair. Capitalistic worldview. It isn't fair. It isn't objectively. If that's your worldview. Which it is for almost all of us. This is another quote from breathing underwater. That's here it. Yeah, tell me what this means. Because I think it's going to make me crazy. All mature spirituality in one sense or another is about letting go and unlearning. Not learning, not learning, but unlearning. The patterns that come so naturally to the ego. Yeah. It's not about learning, which is what we made it into. Yeah. I taught in Germany a lot in those dear little German evangelicals. Just memorize, he worked in German. They love their Bible, but I don't know. Well, no, Richard shut up. It just didn't necessarily make them vulnerable. In fact, the opposite. When you always have the answer for everything, you're anything that vulnerable. You know, you're, you're, well, you use the word before you're weaponizing the gospel. It's a way to be in control, be right. You know this for certain. I could say it without knowing you well. Smart people, I met my life or people who ask good questions. No, yeah, me too. Oh, it's so obvious like you're doing right now. And we may smart people. People who have a quick answer for everything. And we thought we'd given the answer. We Catholics were given the Baltimore Catechism, which we had in great part memorized. And poor evangelicals were given Bible quotes. How many Jeff to memorize each week? We can't talk. You can talk. How many do you think? Several. Several, several, yeah. Hi, I'm Brunei Brown. And I'm Adam Grant. And we're here to invite you to the Curiosity Shop. A podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning. It's going to be fun. We rarely agree. But we almost never disagree. And we're always learning. That's true. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday. Hey, so we're not paying taxes this year, right? Until the Pentagon passes one damn audit. We shouldn't pay any more taxes. People don't want to pay taxes anymore because they don't trust the way the government is spending and tracking our money. Americans are fed up with paying taxes. And I know, I know, but hear me out. Americans are extra fed up with paying taxes lately, according to some gallop polling and some posting. But are we being shortsighted? I think that it's important to have a government. I think the humans tried anarchy for quite a long time. And it didn't work so well. A lot of people got hit over the head with rocks. We didn't have a whole lot of economic development. Almost everyone agrees that the United States should have a military to protect it from foreign invasion that we should have law enforcement, firefighting schools, etc. Anti-taxers and where this could all be heading on today. Explained. Drop in every weekday afternoon. Let me ask you about this unlearning. Because I'm unlearning right now. I'm unlearning about mercy and grace right now. Because I kind of want a deposit with draw system around grace. I would like grace to be a meritocracy. Of course you do. And of course you do. You're an American. We pick up capitalism with our mother's milk. And so everything is framed. Little kids already think in terms of payment and performance. I'm not even sure. God seems tricky to me. It's a catch-22 a little bit. I don't actually want grace when I've done something wrong or messy or imperfect. I don't want it because I don't want to give it to people when that happens. And yet again my prayer, I'm trapped in certain grace. I cannot get out of God's grace. If I try, it seems I'm relenting. Well, it's so well said. One of my books, I don't think it's even imprint anymore. I said in the frontous piece of the book, grace will always be a humiliation for me. Oh, I'd say that again. The grace will always be a humiliation for me. And when I realized I didn't earn that by performance, or by worthiness or by attainment or education, it was given a Creacio X-Neel-O. We had to learn Latin, of course, creation out of nothing. And the ultimate Creacio X-Neel-O is grace. It's just no reason. And you receive it by being ready for such a world, allowing such a world, even expecting such a world. When I used to give a lot of retreats, one of the exercises was, I'd send people out for for silence in the world. and say now pick an artificial line in the sand or the ground, a log across the road or a certain small patch of something. And before you step over, say to yourself on that side, I'm going to see something very special. Just say it to yourself fully expect it's going to happen over there. Once you've convinced that step over, the stories, the stories I have from those retreats, people in tears sometimes, my God, it happened just something laying on the ground that struck them as a religious symbol that they needed, you know. But when it isn't a land of enchantment, as we call in the Mexico here, it won't be enchanting for you, it won't. And our spiritual teachers did not tell us how to expect a land of enchantment, you know. We basically don't believe in the reality of the spiritual world. We believe in the reality of the logical world. And as long as you're there, not much new is going to happen to you really unless God wumps you on the side of the head, which God does with a lot of people. Oh, I've been wamped, yeah. You've been wamped. I've been wamped. Yeah. You couldn't know what you do without it. Yeah. No, I've been wamped. For sure. What is one of your quotes? Let me think about it. I don't have a little quotes better than me. Let me hear it. It's like, wait, no, it's a good one. Religion. Oh, what? Wait, this is good. You write, I don't remember what book it's from religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. And spirituality is for people who've been through hell through hell. I never said that enough because it's true. What do you mean? Well, tell me what you mean? It's like one of my favorite, but well, been through hell is the eagle had to suffer a major humiliation, a major failure, a major, I can't do it. Damn it. I don't even like this God or some crisis of faith. And that's hell. It's hell when you're in the middle of it. So you've heard my wisdom pattern order, disorder, reorder until you go through that disorder and come out more alive, more expansive on the other side. There's a whole bunch of things you don't know. You just don't. I mean, I'm at saints, my 14 years in the jail here, just in cell after cell, not always by any means. But enough, more than I do on the streets of the city, who just had been defeated to the core. And now we're not blaming anybody, we're not blaming God, we're not blaming themselves. But just in some way, smiling, that's reorder. Step over that line and found something magical. Yes. I don't think you could preach the gospel. You have no right to preach the gospel until you're on the other side. And you don't learn that in a seminary. You don't learn how to fail gracefully and really fail that you're, I have a big black eye for those of you listening, have your face pushed in the dirt. I was interviewing Chris Germer, who is a Buddhist and teaches mindful self-compassion, and I asked him, we were talking about spirituality. And I said, what is your favorite kind of compassion? And he said, I like in the trenches compassion. And I said, yeah, me too. I'm really close to a very specific kind of honky-tonk Jesus. So when I saw your shiner, I was like, yeah, this is the home of honky-tonk Jesus. I like it. I don't trust a, I don't know, I don't trust a spirituality that doesn't have dirt under its nails. That's too antiseptic. Yeah, it just gets, it worries me a little bit. Remember Ken Wilber, maybe you for this cleaning up, growing up, waking up, showing up. Most people never get beyond the cleaning up stage. They use religion to appear pure. The cult of innocence. The cult of innocence, there you are again. Growing up, maybe 25%. This is just a waking up. These are numbers off the top man, but I'd say less than 10%. Really overcome the myth of dualism. And showing up, which doesn't sound that exotic at all, it might be even less people who go back to serve the people in the trenches, just like the Buddhist Bodhisattva. I find that paradigm very helpful, but that's from Ken Wilber, who in my opinion is the wisest philosopher of religion on the American scene. Wow, we'll put a link in the page for people who want to read more. Last quote from breathing underwater. Only hour by hour gratitude is strong enough to overcome all temptations to resentment. God resentment is so tempting. Isn't it? For us ones especially, we like to have a grievance because if we can have a grievance, it puts us on a higher pedestal. That person didn't do their job or. Oh, I love a grievance. Yes. If we'd be honest. I love several of them. At the same time. Yes. And you hear people I won't mention a former president that we had here whose whole talks are just grievances. A man who has had everything to his material success. And he lists his grievances and people applaud for it. A litany of grievances. It's just calm. You don't know how good you have it. So hour by hour gratitude. Did I write that? You did. You wrote hour by hour gratitude. I was inspired the summer I wrote that book, I guess. Because it's so well received in jails and prisons, really. In my house. In your house. Jails, prisons and Brunei. I mean, like, yeah, and let me tell you something. That's not the distance you think it is. How do you mean from jail to prison to Brunei? Oh, thank you. No, I mean, it's just not the distance. I mean, like, they're better than the grace, you know? Yeah. What does hour by hour gratitude look like? I mean, are you being literal here? Where it presses up. It's not a willful choice. It's just owning itself within you for no reason in particular. Either gratitude is universal or it does last. Yeah, you just feel it toward this is all undeserved. That I open my eyes this morning undeserved. That I'm a saty. I never thought I'd live this song. 80 undeserved. That I've been able to write these books undeserved. That's strong. That's the serious word that you're using there undeserved, like just mercy, grace. The very word gratuitous means undeserved. Oh, my God, do that. And if you look for a way to prove that you did deserve it, you've lost it at that moment. You know, I see people even in regard to the war in Ukraine now talking about what do those people do to deserve that nothing? It works both ways. Evil is gratuitous and grace is gratuitous. And if we're not programmed to receive grace, we'll normally gravitate toward grievance. Why the world has done me and done me wrong. Can't catch a break. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This book, man, literally not there. But thank you for bringing back these quotes that I forgot I wrote. Yeah, they've changed. They've rearranged and changed. Your quotes have been a wamp upside the head just if I want to be honest. Some of my wamp's came right from you. Thank you. I don't know. You normally wouldn't call a friend, would you? Who's wamp with you on the slide of the head? Sometimes wamp's are really important. Sometimes grace comes in in the form of a wamp, right? And you know, much of my middle years was man's work. If you think And that's true for women. It's very true for men. We have a much more defended ego, a much more self-sufficient, you know, I don't have to tell women that. But we got a huge problem with the male and our culture. Yeah. Look at the Senate and the House. Yeah. I mean, my God. And the fragility of that ego and the self-protection around it can lead to really dangerous things. I'm just a little bit dangerous. Talk about a need for some wampin. A major wampin. But I'm a senator. I don't need a wamp. Right. I know like this whole past few years of denying obvious deceit, denying obvious untruths. And I'm supposed to look up to you as an elder. You're not in the first grade. I'm not trying to be overly judgmental, although that's our sin, you know, as ones. We're overly judgmental. You don't think we're just good observers? Yeah, very good. Let's say we're very good astute observers. Yeah. Well, we do see it in ourselves. Yes. Oh, no, for sure. Yeah. And we've gotten so good at seeing it in ourselves that we transfer it outside our skill. Take skills. Yeah. Take skills. That's good. Okay. Thank you so much. And I can't wait to go to part two. Okay. All right, y'all. It's just more to come on this conversation brought to you from Albuquerque, New Mexico. Woo. Just. I don't know. I don't know what to say, really. Just so important to me. And I'm grateful to be able to share it with you all because y'all are important to me too. You can find the podcast on Brane Brown dot com. And you can find links to all of Richard's books as someone who's been sober for a long time and hopes to be so tomorrow. Breathing underwater is a really important book for me. So say awkward, brave, and kind and open yourself up to some unrelenting grace. Unlocking us is produced by Brane Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Carrie Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.