Brené with Dr. Angela Duckworth on Grit and the Importance of Trying New Things

[MUSIC] Hi, everyone. I'm Brunei Brown, and this is Dare to Lead. I feel like I have been waiting to have this conversation for a very long time. In this episode, I am talking with Dr. Angela Duckworth about her research on grit. And it's so funny because Angela and I have been in the same places at the same time, but kind of missed each other by minutes, whether we're at a conference and we're both speaking, or we're at a university doing something. And I'm always like, I just wanted to talk to her for five minutes. But this time we get to jump in and do a deep dive on her work. Hey, I'm Matt Bouchel, comedian, writer, and floating head. You may or may not have seen on your FYP. And I'm starting a brand new podcast. Wait, don't swipe away. It's called That Sounds Like A Lot. You know that feeling when you check your phone, read a few headlines and think, "That sounds like a lot. I can't do this." Well, I can, and I'm going to get into it every Friday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcast. I'm going to start by breaking down whatever insanity is happening in the world. And then I'll sit down with a comedian, or actor, or writer, or honestly, anyone who responds to my DMs. This is not the place to get the news, but it is a place to feel a little bit better about it. That sounds like a lot coming May 1st, part of the Vox Media podcast network. Here's what I love about our conversation. We dig into what grit is, but we also dig into what grit isn't. You know, grit is passion and perseverance over time. And that's a hard thing in this kind of short bumper sticker world to say, I'm going to build mastery. I'm going to stick with something. And I think people understand that part about grit. But what I don't think we all understand is there's another side to grit that people don't talk about as much, which has been kind of revelatory for me. And a big part of my personal experience in my career, which is the openness to trying things and learning that they're not for you. And some people say, well, grit is sticking with it, whether it's for you or not. And that's not what grit is. And that's really important, I think, for parents and for educators and for us personally, where we're like, wow, I tried this. I think we share examples about our kids trying to finish seasons of sports. They start, you know, I tried this. I hated it. I don't want to do it again. Does that mean I don't have grit? No, did you learn? Did you get closer to what you might love by trying things that you don't? It's just a great conversation. We dig into everything from the research construct of grit to criticism and careers. It's the conversation I've been waiting a long time to have with Angela Duckworth. All right, so I have to start by saying that I have wanted to talk to you for a very long time. No, you know, I think your agent sent me, I think it was dare to lead. And so I read your work, but I remember reading at least one of your books very carefully. And I was saying all these things to myself. I was just like, what a great psychologist. Amazing writing, slash amazing intuitions about human nature. So I'm a fan. Thank you. And we're in places together all the time. So I'll get somewhere. It'll either be like a conference where we're both speaking and oh yeah, Angela Duckworth opened it and you're closing it or it's a company where I'm going into leadership work and you've been working with them. And people always say, oh, we love the combination of grit and vulnerability. And I'm like, I need to meet her. So it's bizarre we haven't met yet, right? Yeah. Like run into each other literally in a hallway or something. Yeah, exactly, but here we are. Here we are. Okay, my first question. Tell us your story. How long should I take like a minute? No, like 10, 15 minutes. We want to know your real story. I think that's the one thing we always want to know about another person. And we all have one. So, okay, here's mine. My parents came to the United States in their late 20s. They settled in this suburb of Philadelphia, which is where I'm from and where I am right now. My dad was very much obsessed with achievement. And I think his father, his own dad was obsessed with achievement and very powerful. He was like a textile magnet. I think in that historical time, there was this communist versus the national. And anyway, I feel like my grandfather was one of the reasons why they had a revolution. Just a very wealthy, powerful, silk empire ruler. And then my dad grew up with this larger than life dad. And then my dad grew up wanting to be very successful. And then he bequeathed his three children this desire to be successful. And my dad's now passed. But when my dad talked about achievement and his own achievement and whether somebody he knew might win the Nobel Prize and whether he might win the Nobel Prize, he was all about who has the gift or the talent or who's really smart. And I think it was not necessarily what he modeled because he also modeled loving what he did and being passionate about getting better. But I grew up as a little girl thinking there's got to be something else to the equation of achievement in life than whether things come really easily to you. And in fact, that's what I ended up studying. So I studied grit as a psychologist, which is not correlated with your measured talent or IQ. And it's defined as the combination of passion and perseverance over really long periods. And I think that's what sets grid apart from other characteristics. It's really about stamina for years, honestly. Or in some cases decades to try to do something that's meaningful to you that you can't accomplish in days or weeks or months. What were you like in high school? Tell me about college. Take us to awkward cringy middle school Angela. I did have more than one really bad perm. And I had braces and I grew up in you've seen 16 candles, right? We are, of course, roughly the same generation. And that was my high school. You had high school. There were the jocks. They were the nerds. I was a cheerleader. I'm, as I said, the daughter of two Chinese immigrants and I really wanted to fit in and I wanted to be quote unquote American as my 16 year old self would have put it. And so I read in 17 magazine once there was one of these features. It was like, which perfume are you? Oh yeah. And then there was like a full page for each of these complete stereotypes, by the way, of are you the bookworm? Are you the, and there was one that was the cheerleader. And I saw that at when I was in middle school because of course girls who are under the age of 17 love to read 17. That's right. And then as this little girl was like, I don't know in the bookworm, right? Because that's a Chinese stereotype. So I'm going to be the cheerleader. So I tried out for cheerleaning and I was a cheerleader from eighth grade all the way through senior year of high school. So if you ask me what I was like as a teenager, I mean, I was trying to fit in and my strategy was to go counter to stereotype and to have raucous keg parties at my home when my parents were away and to not be what I thought a lot of people thought I might be that I didn't want to. I was also still taking AP classes. So in honor. I think during that time, I had this slightly overbearing father who is obsessed with achievement. And he was also kind of grumpy. I don't think my dad was actually very happy growing up. And then I had a mother who by contrast was the most selfless person I've ever met. My mom is still alive. And so I had my dad and my mom in my life. And I was making my way through this big American high school. I was born in the United States, but gets these Chinese parents. And I would say that in those years trying to figure out your identity, I felt like I both inherited it or I developed, I don't know, what words he was, my dad's obsession with achievement. And then also, whenever I do anything kind or nice, I literally say sometimes out loud, I am my mother's daughter. So I have been trying to both live a life where I'm my father's daughter and also my father's daughter being somebody who wants to prove her father wrong in some ways. But also I'm trying to be my mother's daughter too. So that was me and my teenage years. So then you go off to college? Yes. So was it college teaching graduate school? I did not take a linear path. I went to Harvard and my dad thought a really good way to make your way in life is to go to Harvard and then become a professor at a place like Harvard, which is what much of my family has done, right? Like you go and you get an MD or a PhD or both and you become a professor and it's very prestigious, which my dad would like a lot. But also it's very secure and very low risk. Yeah. So that was my dad's mental model. When I got to Harvard, my mom by the way was like, do whatever you want. I mean, my mom was supportive, but not necessarily super demanding or it's certainly not overbearing. I will say this when I got to college. I was really unhappy and I don't know whether it's well, I do a little bit from your writing. I think this might resonate. I had quote unquote it all, right? I had achieved my father's ambitions. So I had achieved satisfaction in my dad's eyes at that point at 18 years old anyway, whatever I was supposed to achieve at 18. I was really unhappy. I wrote to Dear Abby and I remember sending this letter in days before word processors like typed it out. And I remember exactly what I said, except for I said that I was really unhappy. And also I think I said, I know I'm not supposed to be unhappy because I've checked the boxes and I have friends and I've got this boyfriend and I'm going to the place that everyone says I should go to and I'm pretty excited about it. Toonum's still so unhappy. What should I do? And I remember I didn't get published in the newspaper, but I did get a reply and the reply said, yeah, I kind of wonder. I don't know. I mean, I'm one person so I can't say, but I wonder whether everybody gets a reply. Anyway, I got to reply. - I would, it said. - And it said, I was very disappointed. And now I realize the wisdom and the advice. But at the time, I was like, what? The reply was very brief. And it said something empathic. And then it said, I think you should see someone. I think this is why people go to therapists. And you might benefit from that. And I now realize that that was excellent advice, which I of course do not take. - Yeah. - Totally ignored. - Yeah, of course. Oh yeah, I mean, come on. - We're 18. - Yeah. - Yes, I didn't have the wisdom of a 50 year old woman. And also it was a time in life, probably a time in history that going to therapy wasn't as common and as accepted as is now. Anyway, so I was a relatively unhappy college student, at least during parts of college, I think. And then I did not go straight to graduate school. We can talk more about why I wasn't happy. I'm not sure I fully understand why I wasn't happy. Maybe if I had gone to therapy, then I would know better. But I became a teacher. I started a summer school for kids. I basically took a different path than my dad had in mind for me. And that led to a lot of friction. My dad at one point stopped speaking to me, actually for about six months. I guess he was speechlessly angry. And I have yearned off the MDPHD path. And I think this in a way, the people who like want to grow up to be lawyers and then they become lawyers, or they want to grow up to be college professors and they become, they're so lucky in a way because those are the well lit, well paved paths. And you just follow them and you take one step and then another and then you end up a doctor or a lawyer. I think the majority of people are like me, which is like that's not the narrow, straight, well lit paid path for you. So I just ended up taking a much more circuitous, I couldn't see down the path. I was like, what am I doing now? Like, what does this lead? But it took 10 years between college graduation and starting my PhD. I don't know when you started yours, but I was 32 when I started mine. My path curved earlier than yours. I started college at 17 and graduated at 29. Oh. Yeah. I was on a 12 year plan. I quit. I hitchhiked around Europe. I bartended a lot. I traveled. Yeah. What? Yeah. No, I didn't finish my bachelor's, so I was 29. And then I went straight through masters and PhD. You had been my father's daughter. Wow. I don't know. I don't know whether he would have been speechlessly angry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like, deposit you back on campus, but I was your family upset. It's really weird. Now, I have this question for you. But it was really weird because my family was breaking down at the time. So my parents were going through a very tumultuous divorce that lasted a couple of years. I was the oldest of four. I'm not sure they knew where I was exactly or what I was doing. And they were scrambling for their lives, I think. And so I don't think they thought anything about it one way or the other. They were distracted by their own trauma. They were distracted by other more urgent things, for sure. Interesting. Yeah. And I think too. When I look back, I did. I hitchhiked through Europe for a long time. I waited tables. I worked at AT&T in Spanish speaking call center. Do you speak Spanish? Yeah. I was really fluent about-- I actually spoke French. And then I learned Spanish to get this job because I needed a job. I used to be pretty quick at picking up languages. So then I ended up graduating when I was 29 with abouters and social work. But I think I learned-- and this is my question for you. I would not have the career I have now had I gone straight through because I learned more in those years about what I'm trying to understand now. Yeah. Then I would have in a straight path. When a straight shot, right? I don't really understand the straight shot as much. That's why I have a little envy or a lot of-- but for me, I think I in college was at one point-- maybe by my senior year, I think I counted up the hours. I was spending more time outside of the lecture halls and the labs doing work with kids mostly, but community service and so on. Then I was in them. And it was an interesting observation because I was like, oh, this says something. And I think in my freshman year, again, this I credits my mother. And I did have a genuine desire to be helpful. So in my freshman year, I signed up for two things. One was tutoring. And the other one was visiting a nursing home. It was like a publicly funded nursing home. And you just got randomly assigned to visit a couple of patients. And then that was your job, right? You did that. And I did it for the whole year. It was hard. It was very-- I think it was meaningful in a sense, although at the end of that year, when I was like, OK, I have two or a little kids. And then I've visited a nursing home and two women in particular. And I will say this. I was like, if I want to make a positive dent in the universe, for me, it made me think about kids. I was like, oh, there are lots of people to help. I feel like I want to help kids because if I help them when they're young, then potentially their whole lives will go better. I don't know. It was a good efficiency argument. I was like, this makes more sense to be at the front end of the lifespan in terms of helping. So I really shifted the center gravity of my attention and certainly my hours outside of class. And I had more and more of a big sister to look at my start of after school. In Richmond for, anyway, at some point, it really was. I was kind of, practically, a half-time educator while I was also finishing my degree in neurobiology. And then the first thing I did when I graduated was I opened the doors to a summer school for kids that I spent my senior year setting up. So yeah, I don't think I would have anticipated. Or could have gotten so interested in kids if I had kind of straight shot gone through and graduated and like marched on to get a PhD. So that very windy path for me, my winding was a lot of it was after college. But it sounds like we kind of ended up maybe roughly the same age as we started on your graduate work. Yeah. And it really is a little, I don't know, random is the right word, but idiosyncratic. I interacted with a lot of people for me. I like you, also professor. So it's a lot of these young people. And it's hard to explain to them that there is this kind of random path dependent. Like you may end up working on fish in a certain bay. And I know it seems so arbitrary. And I could have ended up working on something else. But somehow those earlier experiences led me down the path of kids and education. And that's the path I am on now. And I'm not going to change paths either. So it's a strange thing, I think, for young adults to grapple with. You're like, what? That's kind of random. And you're like, yeah, it's kind of like life. I mean, yeah, it is completely like life. And I've got a daughter who's getting ready to start graduate school. And we talk about it all the time. I just keep telling her, she'll do an internship. And at the end of it, she'll say, I know I do not ever want to do that. I'm like, what a success then. I mean, nothing wasted. Yeah. Nothing is wasted. There's not an experience that I would undo or redo only because I don't know. I'm just a sum total of a lot. But does your daughter feel the same way? Because I feel like when you say to young people that process of elimination is pretty much the only way to learn-- it's like, oh, great. I'm really glad you hated that internship because you learned that you don't want to be an accountant. But I don't know that young people are doing jigs of joy when their summer internship was horrible. I don't think they always process it as great. I have eliminated that, you know what I mean? Yeah. Fair. But there's so much pressure. And so what ends up happening is-- That's so much anxiety. I end up interviewing all these people, especially young women, many of them, people of color, black and indigenous, Asian Americans. I end up interviewing them in their late 20s. And their lawyers or engineers are physicians, and they're unhappy. And they're miserable. God, they're unhappy. The pressure is great. It is. I think uncertainty has had generally uncomfortable state for him. And just this morning, I was on the phone with a beloved student. They're not supposed to have favorites as a professor or a teacher, but I can't help it. And I do love all my students. But some, I just-- I mean, I just adore this student. And she's in her first job, and she's really unhappy. And the thing I wanted to say to her-- I was like, first of all, I was miserable when I was your age. And more miserable than I was at any other age. But because of, I think, the uncertainty-- I mean, it wasn't because I was working hard. It wasn't because I didn't have a lot of money. It was because I didn't like not knowing the end of the story. I didn't like knowing what am I going to do and whom I'm going to end up with. And will there be children in my life? And where will I be, geographically? I mean, I hated it. So when I remember myself at that age, I have so much empathy. And I think uncertainty is super hard to take. And I would never relive my 20s. If-- I mean, as much as I learned, I'm so much happier as a menopausal 50-year-old, abdominal fat, a total. I was like, and you're going to get fatter, and it's totally going to be fine. But yeah, when is it rough? Yeah, no, I think it is. And especially right now, I feel like I don't know that we've really done a great job of modeling. Lisa's a country here. What productive adulthood looks like. Are we even modeling adulthood? I feel like we're-- I don't think so. Badly behaved kindergartners. Yeah. So let me ask you this question. Your work has become just household. My kids have not been in a school when we have not had a presentation on grit. We haven't talked about it. Is the best definition of grit? As we talk about these kids in their 20s, are these young adults in their 20s? When we talk about our students, I'm getting ready to teach a class in the fall, an MBA class. And I'm really excited because it's been-- I'll see you in the class. classroom. But is it a combination of passion and perseverance over time? Is that the clearest definition of it? I think that's the clearest definition of it. And I want to put an asteris next to it, especially given what we were just saying about young people, young adults, my daughters are swatched actually today, 18 and 19. And I don't think that passion and perseverance over really long periods is developmentally what you would expect or want in an 18 year old, a 19 year old, a 22 year old. The idea is that when you want to accomplish something great in life, it's going to take a long time. So you have to have passion and perseverance over really long periods. But the thing that is, I don't know if it's paradoxical, I feel like every time I use that word, I use it wrongly. But anyway, it is not intuitive that I think earlier in life, the people who end up with passion and perseverance for long term goals actually are doing more sampling, more quitting things and saying like, oh, that's not for me than others. So yes, when I study Nobel laureates, they have a kind of obsessive focus on a given question that they are sometimes they will literally use this expression like a dog with a rag in its teeth. And one, what Carthler fellow that I had a conversation with who was I think it is 90s who is a poet actually and he said, oh yeah, it's like a dog with a rag and I said, right, and he was like, no, no, but I'm the rag. I'm a dog. But anyway, yeah, there is this wake up seven days a week. I want to do like, you know, working really hard. But when you ask the question, what were they like when they were teenagers, right? Like you asked me or what were they like in their 20s? I mean, there's a lot of wandering around because in all that learning, right? In the kind of, oh, wow, that internship wasn't what I expected. Oh, I hate sitting down all day. That's terrible. I want to be with people. Those lessons, those corrections in your trajectory where you're like, oh, wait, I want to do something different. I think that's how you get to specialization, right? So sometimes I worry that people, yeah, I know my grit talk is probably shown too many times to unsuspecting students, whose teachers force them to watch it. But I don't want the lesson to be that you should already know what you want to do in your life at some prematurely young age. And I hope I'm not adding to that pressure that clearly young people are already under too much of, right? It's a kind of nowhere they're going. This is a phenomenon that I've experienced with my own work. I don't actually get that from your work. What I get that from are people who are looking to oversimplify your work and present it as a secret sauce. And that is some bullshit. I have to tell you because I really want to talk about this because you are one of the very few people I think I can just ask. I'm like, from your personal experience, Brunei, and I don't know. I don't even know if you have critics. Everybody I know seems to love you. I don't know if you feel like there are major themes of misunderstanding. How is it for you? And I do promise to share how it is for me, but there aren't that many people I can ask. I'll just give you a great example or a couple of examples. So when braving the wilderness came out, it was a book re-examining and kind of pushing for these ideas about belonging that it emerged from data when I was writing the gifts of imperfection. And it was about belonging and it was about loneliness. And I remember looking at an article that they had run in, I don't know, one of the UK papers that said the title of it was, "Bernay Brown says never experience loneliness again. Hear the five steps." And I was like, "Oh hell no." And I lost my shit. You couldn't do anything about it. It was already published, right? I mean, is there a newspaper, right? It was already published. Yeah. And I was crying to my team. I'm like, I would never say anything like that. No researcher worth their salt would ever say, never feel this again. I mean, it's so crazy. It's the opposite of what you did. Right. The article doesn't even match the headline. And the people on my team were really empathetic, but they were all like, you know, headlines are clickbait. You know that we don't have creative control over headlines. And I was just like, how do you put your work into the world as someone who studies human behavior? And you can say a million times that there's no causation here. Maybe there's correlation, but here's what I'm finding. And it's important and helpful, I think. And then you have this world starving to death for answers that our panacea is and deliver them from discomfort. Yeah. Yeah. Even I have to say, you can see my grip book. It's so funny because my grip book has coffee stains. My grip book is grit. Psychologists, I'm reading this from Dan Gilbert on the front. Psychologists have spent decades searching for the secret of success, but Duckworth is the one who found it. Never in here do I see you saying I have found the secret to success. What I read you saying is people are complicated. There's no way to study them without making them into lab rats. But here's what my observations say. Here with the data say, and here's what we need to understand more about. That's my read of what you're saying. Just this week, I think yesterday, there's a book that came out and oh my gosh, it's probably a repression like technically like I can't even think of the name, but it's by Jesse Single and I don't know this journalist very well. But I think he's a science writer and he writes for New York magazine. And there's a whole chapter devoted to grit. And I think the premise, although I have to confess, I haven't yet read this in detail is basically that totally overblown Angela Duckworth over claims exaggeration. And when you read that little blur from Dan Gilbert, my colleague and friend at Harvard, I think that very line is used in this chapter to say that there's exaggeration. All you need to do is be gritty. It doesn't matter if you're poor. It doesn't matter if you're being oppressed. It doesn't matter if society's racist. It doesn't matter how much ability you have. The Angela Duckworth is kind of saying grit is everything. And I have a few reactions to this. One is I will say that I've come to think that like you're saying there is a kind of, we both study human nature. So I'm sure for both of us, we're also at some level trying to understand this, right? And I think there's a yearning for simplicity and for quick answers and not a lot of people want to read whole books, honestly, and even 18 minutes for a TED Talk now seems long. It's like 18 minutes. Well, I guess if I listen to it at two X time, it'll be nine minutes. It's true. Well, I also do. It's true. So I think nuance and complexity are always going to be hard to communicate because it's probably part of the nature of human nature to want simpler and faster solutions. So that's one reaction. Another reaction is some defensiveness, some kind of like, hey, I really tried hard to explain things honestly and with as much complexity as you can for a non-scientific audience. But here's my third reaction. I slept really well on Tuesday night. So this book comes out and it's very critical of me. And I think the idea is this could do more harm than good, grit as an idea, the popularization. And I slept really well, which is actually uncharacteristic of me because I usually sleep like total shit. I guess I'll also say this. I always try to say this to my 20-something students. I'm like, wow, there's some benefits to being 50. I think I have a little perspective, a little maturity. Yes, amen. You know what I mean? I'm like, oh, not super loving that this chapter, but also it's like, look, it's a journalist. First of all, he has a point of view. Second of all, you might have some things to say that are valid. I'm sure he has lots of things to say that are valid. Maybe not the style that I would have taken, but there are much bigger problems in the world than to worry about the almost inevitable misinterpretation or alternative interpretation if you want to say that. And that and I went to bed. I read the last few pages of Bridgerton and I went to sleep and woke up in the morning and suddenly I was standing. Yeah, right. And I think that that's changed. I think I would have freaked out more five years ago. Honestly, I would have freaked out much more. Points in my life where your problem at the moment blots out the sun. And you can't think of anything else. And now I have just a little more perspective, I think. Do you think perspective? One of the reasons I'm really interested in this, this is great. We're getting very meta here. I like that because we're both human nature scientists. Yeah, I think that's why I think because we study that. First of all, I love what you said about the stick to itiveness and the sampling. And so the way I kind of characterized grit for my kids is not you're going to try this sport because my kids are both athletes. We do have a rule that you stick out of season. But it's not that you're going to try this sport and you're going to become great at it. It's that the grit is if that sucked and you really hated it, we're going to try another one. Right. So the grit is in the sampling to me. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. And here's the nuance that hopefully in conversation because our conversation is longer than a bumper sticker in my family too. Right. I said, there's a hard thing rule. Everybody in the duck worth family has to do a hard thing. Hard thing is defined as something that requires deliberate practice, which because they were my daughters and because I was doing research on this kind of practice that Olympic athletes and other experts do. They knew what that was. Meaning There's feedback on their goals. There's the goal of improvement, so you can't just sign up for pottery class at the wonderful studio where honestly you're just gonna hang out and eat goldfish crackers and make some things but it's not real hard. Yeah, practice. Okay, you gotta do that. You can't quit before the end of the season. Yep. Or the end of the session or when the tuition payments are still got like you make a commitment and I do think even five year olds can learn what it means to have a commitment and to honor your word, right? When you look at a coach and you say I'm here for track season, if my daughter you realize that you're very first track me that this is not for you. Yes, what? You have seven more weeks of track season. But the third thing was really important. I think it gets to kind of like the grit is in the sampling. The third thing was that nobody can pick your hard thing but you and once you do honor that commitment, right? Once you do finish the track season or the ballet session or whatever, then you can pick another thing and my 18 year old who's birthdays today, but she's cycle through half doesn't or more things and actually for a lot of her high school years because she's now senior. I kept trying to get her to quit viola and that was her hard thing. So she has kind of cycled through a bunch of things ballet and I think briefly piano definitely track gymnastics for getting a couple of them. But she landed on viola and I think one of the reasons why she stuck with viola was that the more she had done it, I think she didn't want to squander that she was like, oh, you know, I'm already 16. I'm like, yeah, trust me. It's not that. I've already invested so much. It's too late to try other things. Anyway, kept trying to get her to quit. And the reason I kept trying to get her to quit was that it was so clear to me that there was very little interest and enjoyment in this musical instrument except for that she really liked her teacher and she did have a wonderful teacher. But I was like, that's just not enough. I mean, you just can't keep doing something because your teacher is so great. If you have no desire to listen to viola music, to think about viola music, to do it. If it's just a hard thing, then that's not great. So I completely agree with you, Bernat. The great is actually in the process, if you will. And especially for our young people, I think that while they are honoring commitments and learning work ethic and learning how to practice hard things, we need to actually not only make it possible, but sometimes kind of nudge them to do things that they've chosen. And also to keep re choosing until they find something better and happy to say that the 18 year old under my roof is no longer playing viola. And she's baking a lot. I mean, she's super interested. And it's not like she wants to be a baker for the rest of her life either, but she's sort of like becoming interested in hospitality or whatever. But she's worked in restaurants. Anyway, that makes sense to me because she's reading cookbooks and she's watching YouTube videos on cupcake decoration. And now that to me feels a lot more like grit, right? Like, oh, you want to think about this thing, even after you have to think about it. And I think that's the direction young people, you know, productively move in. God, that's so beautiful. And while you're saying it, I'm thinking of, of course, Stephen, I met coaching swimming. And so we're both big swimmers. She still swim. I do still swim. He still will swim the master's class competitively. Oh, that is so impressive. Yeah, he'll go to his master's class. And I'll be like, are you going to swim lessons? Like shut up. It's like that. But it was funny because when Ellen was, I don't know how she was maybe eight or nine. She decided to sign up for this swim team. And it was a year round. And I'm like, are you sure? And she says yes. And so she on day two of 365 days of swim team. She realized. Wrong decision. I've never hated anything else so much of my life. And I even had to have a conversation with Steve where I was like, do we hold her accountable for this season is a year. I never had to deal with that. Yeah. And so she did it. And the last day, I think she was nine on her last day. She handed us a capping goggles. And said, I get that y'all are swimmers. I will never be out of swim team again. And we said, that's great. I tell you how that paid off now that she's almost 22 is she thinks about what it took to get through that when she's in love with something that she wants to do. And she questions her stamina. And she says, if I could be on that swim team for a year, that is really interesting. But that is sampling that is getting to know who you are. And what you're capable of. And it was a lot of life. I mean, a lot of stories come out of that swimming year because it really taught her what she was capable of in some ways. And we didn't push it like we would say, you don't have to go to every meet you have to work that out with your coach. But I think grit and kids to me is about the passion and perseverance. And perseverance of trying things that you're not already good at doing. So interesting. Do you know what I mean? Yes. And that is a freaking skill because how many of us get to be adults where we will not try anything we're not already good at. It's like exposure therapy for your insecurity, right? So for those who don't know what exposure therapy Brunei and I know but it's when you have a phobic patient and a clinically for like a freight of snakes or heights are the number one and probably one of the most efficacious treatments that's ever been developed for anything is the exposure therapy sequence where you have somebody who's afraid of snakes and they don't even want to think about them. But you just say can you look at this word typed out on a piece of paper SNAKE sure I can do that. Okay, now can I look at a picture of one from a Google image is like well maybe right and then you progressively expose somebody to more and more now formally scary things right and then they overcome it and they extinguish the phobia and I think when kids do hard things and maybe especially when they're hard things for which it's not natural like it's not oh yeah. And everything went great is struggle and there's doubt and there's a lot of the other things that we don't want to come into the lives of our kids. But I think it is a little bit like exposure therapy in that the problem with phobias again as I think you know Brunei is that when somebody's really afraid of snakes or heights or airplanes or whatever. The reason why they don't just grow out of these fears is that they will avoid the things that they were afraid of in the first place and they will never learn that it's not that bad. And in therapy you expose them to these higher and higher doses and I've often thought about that as my daughters are growing up that like part of the job of a parent is exposure therapy treatment. It's like you have to make sure that they are exposing things that they have a little bit of fear about they have a little bit of anxiety about they have a little bit of hesitation or they don't really feel like doing something because if you just leave them to their own devices sometimes literally to their own devices I guess with kids they will never learn like oh I can do it like oh it's possible to lose a game and the world doesn't collapse right. It's possible to have somebody write a book that says you're not a great scientist and sleep through the night and wake up in the sun is still shining so I do think that's why we send our kids by the way a lot to do sports and to do music not like we think they're going to become athletes or musicians but that we're exposing them to tough coaching to oh my gosh I don't really like doing this or sucks to lose a game. Right I have seen myself described by people and heard myself described by people as a very gritty and tenacious person and I probably do have a lot of grit I have a lot of passion and I have a lot of perseverance and it's not unusual for me to set a goal that's five or 10 years out because I always think well hopefully I'm still be alive anyway in 10 years and once the difference if I'm still working on this it doesn't scare me but I wonder sometimes what role does perspective have in grit is that a variable in grit. Well first let me try to understand I think I know what you mean by perspective taking but I want to make sure when I go to sleep at night and someone's really criticize me and I can still operate without ruminating entirely on that I think it really is almost zooming out and say hey this thing is there but look at all these other things in the landscape right the opacados are ripe and then also I have this other problem which is actually a bigger problem right so it's really putting things in perspective almost literally right. 100% okay so that's what you mean. Brit honestly is something that I feel like has multiple parts and some people could argue that it's not very helpful to have a characteristic that has so many parts. Part of grit is being resilient I think but part of grit is being really interested in what you're doing and part of grit is feeling like what you're doing is aligned with your core values as a person. And part of grit is being willing to practice and so one could argue that what's not super helpful to have this composite of all these things and yet I think it has some benefits to I do think that perspective taking is really important to resilience I think that it's so easy to be thrown off by a critic or you just have a massive failure. I'm sure you and I have recent stories of pretty big screw ups I do. Oh God yeah right and like how do you keep going so I think perspective taking is relevant to that aspect of grit maybe I should just quit my job and hide in my living room or my bedroom because this journalist thinks I'm pretty awful. If I don't put that into perspective then it does blood out the sun and I think that like so many of the things that you and I work on perspective taking is a skill. Totally. Whether you have it or not doesn't mean that you won't have it later because I've certainly learned so much more about perspective taking as I've gotten a little more experience. Hi everyone, Cara Swisher here. We just won the Webby Award for the best interview show in news business and society. And I've had some great guests on my podcast on with Cara Swisher. Here are some you don't want to miss. Tristan Harris, the co-founder of the Center for Humane Technology. I talk to him about his biggest worry when it comes to development and deployment of AI, hinting. It has something to do with the CEOs and how they stand to profit. I interview Documentarian Louis Theroux, his latest documentary, Into the Manosphere, focuses on the incredible and horrifying influence this group of individuals has, especially on young men and boys. And recently I caught up with Katie Kerr, Amy LaRaca and my brother, Jeff Swisher, to debunk some of the fads and misinformation behind the billion dollar wellness industry. And we talked about the important medical tests that are actually worth your while. All of these conversations are available now. You can find them on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts and get plenty more lined up for the summer. So be sure to subscribe to On With Cara Swisher to catch them all. Is the U.S. China rivalry ultimately a race to build the future? The United States and China are the two countries that are really inventing the future. The future is being financed by Wall Street, invented in Silicon Valley as well as Xinjiang. I'm Jake Sullivan. And I'm John Feiner. And we're the hosts of the Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week, author Dan Wong joins us to discuss America's lawyerly society, China's engineering state, and why derangement might be a prerequisite for superpower status. The episode's out now. Search for and follow the long game wherever you get your podcasts. When I think about my grit, I think about my ability to look at something even if I'm losing my shit in the moment, I can take a couple deep breaths and I do this 5555 thing where will this matter in five minutes, five hours, five weeks, five years. I haven't heard that. I love that. Wait, say it again. Can you say it again? It's actually five fives now that I think about it because I always say will this matter in five minutes, five hours, five weeks, five months, or five years. That's good. Yeah. And so for me, because I have a long horizon in my mind, because it took me 20 years to build this career. So that seems reasonable to me. So unless it's really going to be bothering me in five months or five years. You're like, maybe I shouldn't be worrying about this. Maybe it just can't blot out the sun to use your language, which I love so much. Maybe I just need to enjoy the avocado. Yeah. See my therapist move on. Yeah. Yeah. And I do the three blessings exercise when I wake up in the morning, thinking of three good things, which by the way, sidebar, I was doing another scientific experiment that I needed to use a thing that people had to do over note to see if we can make a habit. And I will tell you from my own data, but lots of others, it really works. Oh, God, I believe it. Thinking of three good things is just like, makes you happier and everyone else too. I feel like thinking of those good things, honestly, most bad things, if you use a five, five, not only am I not going to care about it in five years or five months. I mean, most of these things, it's like, I'm not going to care about them in five minutes. I mean, that's, there's a lot. You ask the question, right? Yeah, there's a lot. Yeah. I think emotions also, again, the way emotions work, and they still feel this way to me. I just have a little more perspective, I guess, is they just feel like forever. You know, when you're really sad and someone says, hey, but you're not going to feel that way, maybe even tomorrow, it's like, it doesn't feel that way. It's like forever, you know what I mean? And when you're anxious, it's very hard to see around the corner. I mean, of course, it's impossible to see around the corner, but just like, logically, so I think perspective doesn't necessarily mean that doesn't feel like, but there's just some part of you that has a good sense to take a few pieces back and my uncle by marriage, actually, not on my Chinese side of my husband's this white guy and his uncle is Ken Duckworth and he is the medical director for the National Alliance on mental illness. So I also give him as the nation's psychiatrist. And I asked him once because I'm very impatient. So it's like, can you give me the gist of therapy because I'm not clinically trained on my researcher. And he was like, what in a sentence? And I'm like, yeah, I mean with semicolon or something. He was like, well, it's kind of complicated, but I think a lot of therapy is three things. Notice it. Sit with it. Put it in perspective. And then he did unpack it for me. He was like, you know, I think a lot of mental health is to notice when you are feeling sad, anxious, insecure, create, you know, then you have to sit with it. I was like, what does sit with it mean? He was like, well, we can do a lot of trouble when we can't experience the distress and just be distressed, right? We have to smoke something. We have to eat something. We have to hit something. He was like, so a lot of mental health work is like helping individuals after they notice it just to sit to sit with the judge. And he's like, and the last part is put it in perspective. Zoom out this thing, this terrible thing, this mistake, this bad relationship, this whatever it is, this problem is part of a picture, but you have to be able to see the rest of the picture. And I've never forgotten that because I've tried to do that more intentionally, right? Notice how I'm feeling good or bad. Sit with it, which I wasn't very good at doing in my 20s for sure. And then more and more to put things in perspective. I found in my work that perspective is very much a function of experience. And that's why one of the reasons I love seeing a therapist is that while I have a lot of experience in my 50s, I still sometimes cannot get the zoom out working on my lens when I am caught in emotion. The emotion, the emotion zooms you in, right? I'm in granular like exactly. And then I got all the weird shit that I do where I'm like, you study emotion, you should be able to label this regulated. You're on a clock. Right. So I think that's helpful. Could I ask you this like really briefly, a friend of mine also a psychologist, but like me, not a clinical site. I don't know when this was definitely during the pandemic. She was like, you know, I'm used to go to therapy. And I was like, yeah, I did. And she was like, but you don't anymore. I was like, no, I don't. And so that was because the therapist had that, you know how certain therapists, they're like, this is the end of therapy. It's not their groove to see you forever. And then she recommended that I go again. And I can't remember the exact precipitating reason why she brought that up. But I just wonder for you, do you go as a matter of maintenance kind of like the way other people might go to the gym. Or do you feel like you go to therapy because it is helping with certain specific things. It's not just general hygiene. And I know that the coach fits in my professional world. And then a therapist that's to regular therapist and like you, I'm not a psychologist, I'm a social worker, but I'm trained in research. I'm not a clinician. But I think for me, I unfortunately have to wait until my tire is flat in order to get like, I'm not great on maintenance. I usually go because is it your uncle or your brother in law? Who is it? That uncle by mayor. I start making bad choices about what to do with what I'm feeling. I'm either working my shit out on people I care about. Or I'm working it out on myself and it feels bad. So usually there's some kind of event. Then when I get in it, like a minute now, I'm like, why don't I do this all the time. And so I think what my plan is now is to probably stay in it kind of weekly. And then I think I'm going to see if I can work with my therapist and doing something monthly where I can just say, I like that idea. Yeah, I think that's what I'm going to do because that's a good idea and everybody thought of that people do that. People totally do it. People totally do a monthly check. Maybe I'm going to try to do something like that. Yeah, because I'm thinking like, God, when am I going to find an hour in the week? I think the monthly check is really how I'm really terrible because my therapist is like, okay, well, that was a great session. I have all my notes. What's my homework? How do you think I did? She's like, Jesus. I don't have gold stars. I don't give gold stars. Your homework is to yeah, yeah, like an a she's like your homework is to feel your feelings. I'm like, fuck. All right. But yeah, interesting. I will say that in my entire life, I have never had as many emails, texts and calls, ask people asking for help trying to find someone to see as I have in the last three months. I think the pandemic and everything has really, you know, the next wave will be a mental health crisis. I mean, we're already in one, but I think we know we are in one. The statistics are off the charts. Yeah. And it was important. I mean, I talked about this openly, very difficult season on marriages, on my marriage, very difficult parenting season. How do you keep our kids safe? And I've come to this thing where I'm like, there's two groups of people, people who experience pain and struggle and get help and people who experience pain and struggle and work their shit out on themselves and other people. But there's no category of people who don't experience. Yeah, that's also the category you hope to be in, want to be in. It's helpful to know that, oh, yeah, that column doesn't exist. There's no room on the sheet for that. You know, with the pandemic, I was thinking about other friends, family members who are experiencing burnout, depression, anxiety. And I think there's something about the, in some ways, the universality of the pandemic, right, there's not a place on the planet that hasn't been influenced by it. There's not a day that there isn't a headline about it. In some ways, that should make it all that we should understand that it's going to now have effects on mental health. I don't know, they're strangely. I feel like there's something about the constant headlines that I think there's for the people that I'm individually thinking about. They don't feel justified in feeling burnt out. I see this and I'm like, of course, you can't work these hours and have this little physical contact with other people. And you can't have this much uncertainty in your life and this much economic disrupt and not have these issues. But there's something about the pervasiveness of the pandemic, which I think for the people that I'm thinking about. I think they're feeling bad on top of the bad. You know, like the meta shame, like shame about feeling shame. Yeah. Is that a thing? Oh, it's a total thing. It's huge. It's that I feel shame for feeling shame or I feel guilty that I don't deserve to get help because my stuff is a comparative suffering. Right. And talking about derailing grit. I mean, if grit is really, you say, just want to make sure I'm right. It's more about stamina than it is about intensity, right? That's my view. Yeah. And honestly, I think so much of life is more about consistency than about intensity. And intensity steals the limelight, you know what I mean? Intensity seems like it steals our attention. I mean, it's very impressive when somebody, we're, I don't know if it's impressive, but it's dramatic when somebody likes stays up all night for three nights or does something with a lot of excitement. But I really think the long game, I mean, think about friendships, right? I had very intense friendships when I was in my, I'm thinking in my 20s in particular, and I remember almost like being in love with a friend. Oh, yeah. And you're like, I want to eat every meal with you for the rest of my life. And like, let's go to the bathroom together. And like, let's just merge our lives. And that intensity is wonderful. And it was wonderful. It was not a predictor of friendship. So now that I think of my most treasured girlfriends, these are not necessarily the people that I had that intoxicating all night, all morning. Let's do everything together. It was more consistency. It was like, you know what? I am friends with the people who kept calling me back. And I kept calling them kind of boring, actually, right? In a way, so I'm a big fan of consistency. It ties to me to the Nietzsche quote that is in grit. Where are you talking about? Not only do we love intensity, but we love this mythical idea of genius. I wish I could reincarnate Nietzsche. You know, I mean, I have a long list, but he's on it. He's on it. So tell me about this idea that just like intensity, we think of genius as magical because he would argue that it gives us permission not to even compare ourselves with this group of people because they're beyond compare. They're geniuses. They're incredible at what they do, which negates not only our ability to achieve, but their work. Yeah. Nietzsche was in a argument, I guess it was a fairly extended back and forth with Wagner. And Wagner said to Nietzsche in writing, I think, as well as in speech, "You are genius." And Nietzsche was arguing, "No, I'm not." And in fact, I think you misunderstand the very idea of excellence. And so the suicide of the debate were that Wagner thought of Nietzsche as an example of somebody. It's like divine. These people are different from everyone else, what they do. It happens spontaneously and mysteriously. And there's really no point in the rest of us trying to play the Nietzsche game, because we will never win. Nietzsche's special Nietzsche said arguing the other side, again, I think kind of interesting that he was arguing. That's an honorific that most people would love. It's like, "Oh, you're going to tell me that I'm special." Yeah, yeah. That I'm unique even. But actually, he thought that the misunderstanding was that when we see truly excellent things, a beautifully crafted meal, a masterpiece oil painting, a book that you read it and you're like, "Oh, my gosh, so fluent, so beautiful, that you misunderstand that as having come in an instant and with ease, where almost inevitably there are hours of hidden labor, there are hundreds of drafts that were imperfect and flawed." And he said that the motivation to anoint a rare few individuals with this appellation, like genius, actually comes from the secret desire that most of us have to not compete. And I think the phrase that Nietzsche used again translated from the German is like, "Here, I do not have to compete." If it's true that greatness is only for a rare few gifted, and if I am not that way, then I can just relax and binge watch Netflix and not move off the sofa. Okay, that is a contemporary raising of what Nietzsche thinks. And I feel like even when I was writing grit, I fell into this trap. It's torture, and you just feel like shit, and you're like, "Oh, my God, this chapter is terrible, and I'm never going to be able to write a sentence that has any meaning or worth." And while I was writing grit and rewriting myself and feeling awful, I went to bed one night, and I was reading Mindy Kaylings' book that came out, I guess the year that I was writing the manuscript. And I think it's like everyone's hanging out without me. Oh, God, yeah, it's so fun. Right, you read it, it's like butter, it's like awesome. And I'm never saying to my husband, I was like, "Well, why can Mindy Kaylings write a book that obviously she just sat down and the words flowed?" I mean, it's just beautiful. And I'm just torturing myself with everything. And he was like, "I think you're falling into the trap that your chapter is about, like literally right now." But anyway, I do think we often mistake fluency and excellence for giftedness and lack of effort. And I'm on Nietzsche's side. Every person that I've ever met or studied, who's truly a great performer, has earned it. I'm not saying that they're not talented. Of course you say in bold, had some talent, of course. But there are no shortcuts. I mean, really, that's why I study grit. I just think that excellence and achievement take a lot of time and effort and mistake making. And we shouldn't think otherwise. I love this idea that there are no shortcuts. I actually really believe that. And it's funny too. I don't know what this phenomenon is. But when I was younger, kind of before the midlife break down spiritual awakening, whatever you want to call it, that prompted the gifts. But when I was younger, and I would see what we would call genius in a book or in a play or art, I would be so discouraged. I would be so like. Because you were like, "I can't do that." Yeah, I would just be like, "What's the point of even trying anything?" Here, I do not have to compete. Or I cannot compete. Yeah. Right, I would be like, "What's the point?" Now, at this point in my life, and probably for the past maybe ten years, when I find what I would consider brilliance in someone's efforts so life affirming. If I read Yabba Blay's book, One Drop, or I see Hamilton, or I see a film, I think, "Oh my God, humans are capable of so much. This is so empowering." But back before I did my own work on my perfectionism, I would think to myself, "Now, let's take about." I would be like, "What's the point?" Right, by comparison, I am this. I'm nothing. Tiny, little, right? Here's a question. By the way, I'm still jealous of people. I have found that my capacity for jealousy is alive and well, unfortunately. But yes, since I have respect for taking them, I'm like, "Oh, but in perspective, there are other parts of me." But I wonder when you see greatness, especially if somebody is doing something great that's close to what you do. If you saw somebody who just gave a fantastic talk, really, really moving, or somebody who writes really well, or somebody who thinks about the kinds of human nature issues that you do, do you feel a, like, "Oh, they're amazing. That tells me that I can do it." Or, "B, do you just not even think about yourself and you're just thinking that's amazing? Human beings are amazing." I know maybe a younger version of yourself, certainly I would like, like, by comparison, I can't do that. So I'm in the equation and I'm feeling diminished. But I think there are two alternatives to that at least. One is, you're in the equation, but now you're just inspired. Or you're not even in the picture. The exclamation doesn't actually have a lot to do with Brunei. It's just sort of, wow, that's really amazing that this person wrote this book. You know what I'm saying? Yes, if it's someone close in my area, that was a huge shift. I mean, I never even thought about it until this conversation, so it's weirding me out in real time. Good. That was a huge marker in my life where I could read something by someone in my area that I thought was brilliant and not feel scarcity as a result of it. So now when I read something in my area that I think is great, I just really want to learn from it and I want to be inspired by it. And I don't think about how it impacts my work either way. I just want to learn from it and be inspired by it. And just to be super honest, I probably came with two things. Experiencing some of my own success and feeling good about some of my own work. And also seeing what that looked like in other people and not wanting to be that way. Oh, seeing the not so wonderful reactions of other people even thinking like, I don't want to be like that. Yeah, I saw something written by someone online one day, I mean, probably years ago, that was about creative fiction and someone who wrote creative fiction said, it was so good. It was personally devastating. I couldn't even finish it. I was so depressed about how good it was. And I was like, dude, God, I get it. I'm in there, but I don't want to be that person. But I don't want to be that person. Yeah, that is interesting. What about you? I don't know if I were a number line. Where would I be on this? Like how evolved am I? Well, like I said, I definitely have twinges of jealousy. I mean, I read scientific papers and I'm like, I want to say, do that study. I wish I'd done specifically that study. And I do still feel a little bit of diminishment and sort of like, what am I doing? Like, I haven't done anything like, so I'm not quite as evolved, I think, on that dimension. I think in terms of feeling inspired and not feeling so discouraged in the medium term. So I always have this reflexive sort of like, oh, I'm so jealous. I don't know. I guess I would say this, I've started to refer to myself as in my 50s. I mean, I started doing that like the day I turned 50. And I feel like it may be part of my, now identity, I mean, 50 is not that old, but I keep thinking like, oh, now it's my turn to be that generous, gracious person who helps the next. Yeah, hopefully successful psychologists come along. So I think by the way, this is not bragging. I think it's its own kind of vanity. I think my ego trip might be the long going to be really nice. So it's not really anything to brag about because I do, I think it's its own kind of vanity to be like, oh, I'm going to be selfless and shepherd along the next generation. But anyway, I am trying to put on this mantle of when somebody does something great, I guess older or younger than me to just be like, oh, wonderful. Like, I will applaud louder than anyone. And like I said, it's probably still vain, but there are worse kinds of vanity, man. And I will tell you one of the things that really fuels my grit, and I don't know if this is the right way to put it because I grit as a construct. And first of all, yeah, you can say that. I will say this, I don't trust a construct that doesn't have a lot of properties if you're talking about human nature. Oh, thank you. I like that because I get yelled at a lot for this. No, man, no, man. Uh-uh. I think when people are like, that's too complex. I'm like, sit down. Like, just you're like, we're going to talk about people now. People now, you know, not complex on particles. Right. Yeah. So I like the complexity of constructs. Again, I'm thinking about Adam Grant and his new book, which I thought was just brilliant. And he writes about the crisis of oversimplification. Yeah. If it's about people, and there's not some complexity to it, that doesn't mean that you can't write about it elegantly and simply. Right. But if there's not some complexity. And if you're not rethinking, right? And thinking like, oh, wait, hold on. Wait, maybe I didn't get the whole thing there. Yes, I agree. Yeah. I agree with that. Are you ready for the rapid fire? Speaking of, let's not oversimplify things. Yeah. I'm just push my vis line back in. And yeah. All right. I love it. I've got you've inspired me to do that. Yeah. I hope you'll end, Lasik. But it sounds like you don't need Lasik, right? No. Do you wear contact lenses? Uh-uh. You have perfect vision. No. Wait, are you walking around blind? No, I wear glasses to see in the movies. And then when I'm driving, that's it. Oh, so you're like almost perfect vision? It's pretty close. I probably pretty good vision. And I don't have readers yet. I think that's very bad. That's very admirable. But I just want to endorse Lasik as somebody who has had it. My daughter really wants to get it. I'm scared, shitless, but I will. No, don't be scared. I won't. I'm going to go with her. And uh, pray. Okay. Fill in the blank for me. Vulnerability is something I probably don't really understand yet. What something people often get wrong about you? That I think that you can pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. What's the hard, baby, leadership or just life lesson that the universe keeps putting in front of you and forcing you to just learn, relearn, unlearn, like, what's that one thing? One of the reasons why leadership is really hard for me is I'm extremely impatient. And I think that comes from a sort of like ego centric, like, what about this? And like, why isn't it better? I think the antidote to that is to really understand what a person is doing and experiencing from their perspective in their shoes. And that's really hard for me. So the leadership lesson that I'm trying to learn is we've talked about perspective taking, but really taking another person's perspective and not mine. I think that would make me so much more patient than I sometimes am. God bless. I'm having an epiphany. I mean, in real time, y'all, I'm a very impatient person. I know this is supposed to be rapid fire. So I know, but I've never thought about how empathy is an antidote to impatience. Right? It is. I'm deeply unempathic, I think, when I am not patient. I think I can be ruinously impatient. And you just forget that other people aren't you. There is this quote that I swear if somebody who listens to you, one of your many followers could Google and find, I would be so grateful. I felt like it came from a novel once and it was like, love is understanding that someone outside yourself is real. It must not be exactly that because I have Googled that specific phrase and haven't found it. But I think when I give feedback to somebody and I'm like, oh my god, this first paragraph, like, where is the topic sentence? I don't think it has a topic. That's why I just have a topic sentence. And then I'm just giving them as if I'm talking to myself. Right? This is how my dad raised us. It's like he was just talking to himself. So he just treated all his children like they were extensions of him. And really, that person who's on the receiving end of the feedback is not me. They don't have my thick skin. They're also not secure. So I feel like sometimes I demolish other people's motivation because I'm just talking to them like I'd be talking to myself. And they're not me. And what I really need to be doing in that moment is to understand where they are and to like see things from there. And I find it really difficult and I do it all the time. And I at least have the metacognitive awareness that I do that. So then I check myself and I try to get better. But it's really hard for me. God, I'm having a serious god moment here. Like you put this conversation I needed to hear this today because how many times I've been told by especially someone I love, Alchbrenet. And I'm like, hey, listen, I'm just giving it to you. Like I'd like to hear it. Right. But they're not you. You know, and that person going, yeah, I'm not you. And you're not better than me. You're not tougher than me. You're not smarter than me. Yeah. Yeah. Just not just not you. Just not you. My daughter is there only 18 and 19, but they're whole middle school and high school years. They would have to do these essays for English class and they would almost go to their dad for help. Always, right. And I was like, hey, by the way, I also write actually sort of for living and I'm a professor. They never wanted my help. And I finally figured out why. And it's because because they told me they're like, you're scary. Why would we come to you for help? You are terrifying, honestly. But dad's really nice. He would patiently read the, it would be, you know, better for everyone. And I remember on the day that I got this knowledge from them, I was like, whoa, that puts together a lot of things for me. Now I understand why I've occasionally probably made people cry. Actually, I don't have to imagine this. I was once in a conversation with a young aspiring researcher. And again, confession here, another professor was their actual advisor, but they couldn't make the meeting. So I was like, no problem. I'll give them the feedback on the next phase of the experiment. So we meet and then the professor who couldn't make the meeting calls me on my cell phone. She's like, I think I need to talk. And I was like, why? You know, like the experimental design. She was like, how do I put this? Yeah, the young person that you, like, they can't stop crying. They're like devastated. They think they have no future in science. And I was like, really? I thought it was a great conversation. I thought it was really productive and very efficient. And again, when my own daughters told me, you're terrifying. I would never want to get feedback from you. It just put a lot of things together. The dots connected finally. And I realized my deep impatience comes from a kind of egocentrism where I'm just talking to people like I'm talking out loud, like I'm talking to myself. And they're not me. And I have to remember that they're not me. And to take that into account of the next time I interact with them. It's really hard. If you're not sure exactly what vulnerability is, this is what it is. Oh, look, I'm making progress. Yeah, I mean, I have a little work to do there. That's all. I've been on the receiving end of that from like an academic who's probably now in his 90s, who basically just said back in the day where it was like, we're just going to be awful. And if you're still standing at the end, you graduate kind of thing. And I just remember it beat me down so bad. I mean, I could take it because I was kind of raised that way. But I am going to start thinking about that. That empathy is an antidote to impatience. And that when I'm being impatient, I'm not in my value around empathy. And so this is a life changer for me. Thank you. Oh, well, I'm working on it too. So we can keep trading notes. Yeah, I love it. One thing that you're really excited about right now. My mom got vaccinated twice. And I think this is the first time I have hugged my own mom. And I have to say, I think that's why I'm sleeping well. Honestly, I'm like, yeah, my mom's living in my house. She made me an egg. It was great. I got to hug her. So I'm very excited. And I'm very excited to get back to it myself with Philadelphia would ever get around to I feel like I'm in group Z or something. So anyway, I will be excited to get a vaccination when I qualify. And I'm very excited that my mom. Yeah, Angela's mom. I love that. Okay. Last question. Tell me one thing you're deeply grateful for right now. My husband's birthday just passed. And my younger daughter, Lucy, wrote him a birthday letter that made me cry. And I guess it was her gratitude letter to her dad for everything he had taught her about life and what it means to live with character. And it was funny and it was wonderful. And I'm So grateful for that, I guess. I mean, it wasn't my gratitude. She wasn't writing a rat's letter to me, but very, very blessed to have. Husband, I love the death and my two amazing kick-ass daughters. Amen, right? Yeah. I think so. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. And you know what? I have wanted to meet you for so long and it was just. I was like, no, I didn't disappoint you. No, on the contrary, it just felt so real and so human and so connecting that I'm very grateful for that. So thank you. Thank you, Brunei. I hope we can end it with to be continued. To be continued. Amen. I loved this conversation. Sometimes I think understanding something in a deeper, more meaningful way, including understanding what it isn't, understanding how things sometimes get taken out of context, especially by those of us who are looking for you know, the magic bullet, the panacea, the answer to everything. We can can, can tort and conform work to our needs. And I, I loved this conversation. I will always and forever be a fan of the deep dive. And I will always and forever be grateful to really this community of awkward brave and kind learners that are on this dare to lead podcast and locking us podcast journey with me. We don't have to do it alone. We were never meant to. So thank you for listening to both of the podcast. It means a lot to me. And we see all of your comments and questions in social media. We work them into our prep for podcast conversations. So just thank you for walking alongside. You can find Angela online at @angela.w on Twitter and Angela.wrth.grit on Facebook and Angela.wrth. on LinkedIn. Her website is Angela.wrth.com. Again, I really appreciate you listening. You can find all the links, all the resources and downloads, including transcripts on the podcast pages on branebrown.com. Awkward brave and kind folks, there's no other way to be. Dare to Lead is produced by branebrown, education, and research group. Music is by the sufferers. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Dare to Lead on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. [Music]