Brené Brown: The Rage Bucket Theory

(upbeat music) - I'm a sports girl. - Oh, you are? - Oh. - Which sports? - Yeah. - Volleyball. (laughing) - I mean, I-- - Wash. (laughing) - I think I'm a boy. - Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. - I play pick of all six days a week. - Yeah, let's go! - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Let's go! - Hey, I'll go smell it and let's go! - Oh, something hippie-ish. - It's not like you've got a good nose. I'm a white lady, that's an, like, I'm a white lady over 50. - I mean, this ain't too hard. - I'm a monster. (laughing) - What do you get to say next? I bet you big sour now. - I'm big sour now. (laughing) - Well, you played pick of all six days a week? - I did. (laughing) - I have found my kind. (upbeat music) - This is What Now, with Trevinoa. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - One word, one word greeting that would not give me away. - Try what's up. - Hey, no, brilliant. - Okay, okay. - The point, hey, would probably work. Hey, I would try to go to the hey. Hey, I fought the water and the water. - Yeah. - I fought that one hard. First time I came, I would go, can I have some water and I'll get looked at for a long time. Stay there, then I'll be like, hey, yeah, please have some water and then I'll get water. - Your water's sounding good. - Yeah, you see, I fought that for long. So now, what is interesting that you learn to say it from a woman. - Some water? - Yeah, the way you're saying it. - Yes, you go girl. - You go girl. (laughing) - Again, Rebecca. (laughing) - No, I'm serious, you go girl. - You go girl. - You go girl. - Really? - Yeah, yeah, hey. - Can I get some water? - Yeah, you're like, hey, can I get some water? - Yeah. (laughing) - Wait, you go girl, you go girl hard. - Hey, can I have some water? - Yeah, now it's not really American. - What is it now? No, it was a mix, it was like a hybrid. Your American girls sounds like American girls. - Why are you, wait, let me back up a little bit more to, like let me go all the way back. Dude, this is what happens when I'm working with leaders and everyone gets into this conversation, and I'm like, wait a minute. What problem are we trying to solve? That's my favorite question. - Yeah, I think the correct question for Eugene is what problem are we trying to create? (laughing) - You're not wrong. - That's what I mean. - Yeah. - When it was the opposite. - I refused to answer that question. - That's what we were talking about before you came. We were saying like, I was saying, I wish I get to testify one day in front of the Senate. Because first of all, there's no ramifications. So that's like, it's a loose thing. Even though people act like it's a big deal. - Oh, wait, wait, hold on, hold on. - At a Senate hearing. - Senate hearing? - The Senate hearing and the Congress hearing. - No, no, two different things. - Yeah, yeah, but what I'm saying is like, if you have to go testify. - Okay, it's probably, you know what I mean? - It's like a congressional, they're bringing you in. - Yes, yes. - They always make it seem like there's consequences. They are none, which is great. - What do you mean? - They're basically just B-roll. - Yeah, but they also don't. (laughing) - Basically, B-roll. - They don't like, kinda shit. - Wait, wait, nothing ever happens when people, - No, man, like testify like that. - Big companies come in, industries come in. It's like slap on the wrist. Nothing really happens. - Or public flogging. - Yeah, that's it, it's public flogging. - Yeah, okay. - But what I do enjoy is the, just the, - No Senator. - There are numbers on hand, but I don't think it is that high. - To the best of my ability. - Yes, oh, I love that one. - I'm sorry, I don't remember. - Yes. - I love it, whenever they go testify in front of Congress, they don't know anything about their company. - The best one should deny anything. - It is, it really is. - I'm sorry. - It was a little part. - It was, that's it. - Finitically, we spend a lot of time on that. - Right, yeah. - What do you mean? - Like, it was part of the, yeah, it was part of our thing. - Yeah, we worked on it really hard to have the denial with the denial. - I feel like you're tricking us, yeah, because you're an expert now, I have to believe, I'm like, I don't know if this is a real thing or not. - No. - Actually, how would you even, how often do people know? How often do people think that you're saying something completely genuine when you're not, because, because you're Brunei Brown. - It depends if, whether they, if you're related to me, you know I'm bullshitting you, okay, okay, okay, in general. Like, I do, you don't ever know, but I, I think, yeah, I should probably be, well, unfortunately, the same thing that makes you undatable, makes me dangerous. - You just say the thing that comes into being that comes to my head, yeah. So, I'm trying to, I just, oh, damn, I, I don't, I shouldn't talk about this. Okay, I'm gonna talk about it anyway. - Okay, yeah, that's like your whole, - Is that a denial? - No, no, it's, I did this interview in January with the financial times. - Yeah. - Uptight. - Yeah, financial times. - Yeah, financial times, yeah. - And I, 20 minutes before I went downstairs and it was in the, like, a room in the hotel, everything was unfolding with ice and Minneapolis. - Uh-huh. - And I was loaded for bear. I mean, I was, I was coming out of my mind. So, when I sat down, whatever the opposite of media training is, is what happened. - Really? - Oh, yeah, I just went, I, and that's the whole thing that, and I kept, even on the elevator down, I was like, think before you speak, don't think, then say it, think, and then pause, and then say it, think before you speak, and then just really pause, but it didn't work like that, and then what I'll go down in the history for is potentially the best correction in financial times history, which said, researcher, Dr. Bernay Brown, did not say she's in her fucking era. She said she was in her fucking era. - That is a correction they have to put in the financial times. - And then, you know, one of the things that is one of the greatest corrections is- - Yeah, no. - And you know that sound effect, you do this sound effect really well. You might be my favorite at best, you go, like, make the noise when the text come on. - Wendy? - When you turn on your phone, and there's like seven, like, put your post Grammy, turn your phone. - Oh, you mean, like, when the, like, they look, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, - Yeah, but when there's like, 30 of them. - Oh, when it's like, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, - Yeah, and you turn your phone on, and you're like, oh, no. - Yeah. - Yes. - You know why he knows how to do that well? - His life. - He doesn't answer text. - Wow. - You jeez. - What are you talking about? - A text doesn't stop buzzing when you answer it or don't answer it. I feel like you just use this as a moment to, like, air out a feeling you have about me. You can't answer a text. - No, that was a deeply appropriate, like, contextualized stray. - To confirm, no, deny that. Wait, so let's go back to this and then I'm going to handle this. - No, the context for your stray was on point. It was excellent. - Yeah. - You're going to love me. - Right here. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So, I don't even know this thing is running, and then it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, sure. And when I saw the article, it was really upset, because I thought we had talked about a lot of great things, and basically they took the five sentences where I was the most kind of angry and unhinged. - Yeah. - And they just then rode around those five sentences, so it wasn't super coherent, but it made me look like someone, one of the comments in the thing, which I shouldn't have read, because my therapist says, I'm supposed to be off those, but I read it anyway. So I said, oh, wow, she's like the Beth Dutton, like the, the wild character from Yellowstone that kills people. - Oh, damn. - She's the Beth Dutton leadership, but then when the financial time's correction came out, one, one guy on, like, whatever, what are we calling Twitter these days? I'm not omitted in New York, actually. - Yeah, so now. - Said a financial time's correction for the ages, and there's like 50,000. - It is the greatest. - Yeah, it is. - Yeah, that is the greatest correction ever, because now it makes me want to go read the article, because now it makes me, but, but it's funny. You know the thing you're talking about, almost maybe answers a question I've had for a while, I've wondered why public conversation has become so sanitized, like, like interviews, everything. You know, I was watching clips from late nights, but like old late night, and I was like, it was so much more honest. - Oh, it was. - Someone would come on and they'd go like, oh, so your movie came out. You know, what do you think? I was like, I'll be honest, it was a piece of trash. Okay, it's not a great film, but, you know, you make movies and you get up and you do it again, and you're like, wow, I don't know the last time I saw someone saying that the movie they made was trash. - No, it's completely true. I'm not sure I was drunk the whole time. - Yeah, yeah, just like that. Those types of things. Just, and I found myself going, the reason I've been going down this rabbit hole is because I was wondering when society sort of like lost its ability to be honest in certain spaces, but then what you're saying maybe answers the question, because I've experienced this as well, if you're going to go out and talk to media or have any conversation with them, and then they're going to warp that because they know that's the thing that gets them the most views and the most clicks, then people now become more and more and more rigid, and so when they go to an interview or when they have a conversation, they go, I'm not going to say anything that you can use against me. - A hundred percent. - That's dating. Now what it means is you just end up in a world where you said nothing because you're so scared and correctly you're so scared. It's so scared that the person will take the one part of the interview, your fucking era. They're going to take that and make that the interview as opposed to putting it in context. And so then people go, you know what, you're not going to see any real parts of me. I will give you the most sanitized version of me. But then ironically, what that's done is it's made people, like I think there's a reason TV is dying and like celebrity culture is sort of like waning and now it's become more about social media because people are looking for real and mainstream doesn't like have real anymore in that way. So basically you're saying people conduct themselves in interviews, like sports stars do. Yes, yes, yes. You just state the obvious facts. It's not a problem. Well, they're very, I mean, so I, what I think is interesting, this is, there's, there's 40 steps I'm going to take here in one sentence. So I understand that it seems preposterous, but I think it's also what you're describing is also at the root of things like strong man authoritarianism. And I think it, the, the, the results of what you're saying are more to me, they're deeper than dying media. So yeah, because in this, in this article, I was unfiltered. And journalists, you know, fair play journalists don't have the ability to pick their headlines. So the headline for the Financial Times article was leaders now have permission to be the assholes they really are. That was the headline in the Financial Times. Wow. You know, researcher Brunei Brown says, well, completely taking out a context, I was talking about the protection of authoritarian, the protection that authoritarian leaders are giving specifically tech leaders right now, because they are complicit in, in, you know, money, coercion, you know, a lot of things that are happening. So you really only have two choices, be sanitized and media trained, which is say nothing about nothing. Or if you are really authentic in yourself, it'll be warped to the point that you are vilified. Yes. So what makes us, I think, so interesting and beautiful as people is that we are a combination of holy and profane. We are a combination of shitty and wonderful and when you strip that ability to be both things in the media, it's just the beginning of how we see people. Yeah. You're human or you're not human, you know, and so I find it to be, we had, you know, I think we had really important conversations about what people are saying about the new world order, about how leadership is being perceived and modeled in organizations by, you know, they're looking at politicians and like, I can get away with anything now. And then yet we just went with the five most outrageous, crazy things and built an article around that. And so the, the nuance in the context and the fact that I am both, I think, I have something worth sharing and I'm pissed off. Those things can coax us. Right. But I think to your point, you see that the, one of my favorites, you know, quotes and ideas to live by, I think it was Charlie Munga who made it famous, but he said, show me the incentive and I will show you the outcome. Oh, God. The whole time that we were, you were saying I was like, we got misaligned incentives. Yes. That's exactly what Charlie Munga said. He said, show me the incentive and I will show you the outcome 100% because we take for granted, right? We take for granted that a news organization. So let's say if you, if you look at America, you know, around like 50s, 60s, even going into like the 70s, when the news division of a media company was supposed to be a lost leader as in it couldn't make a profit, there was just a different style of news telling. There was a different style. It was like, these are the facts. This is what's happening. Let's keep it moving because they didn't have to try and get your eyeballs because they didn't have to try and get advertising and so on and so on and so on. Yeah. They were reporting the news. Yeah. So if your job is to report the news, you will report the news. Whatever news that is. But if your job is to get eyeballs and your job is to get viewers and your job is to increase readership and your job, well, then news might not align with that all the time. So then you start going, what's newsworthy and what's audienceworthy, what's clickable? And so having somebody say something crazy and making that the focus, that's the most clickable thing that you can create. And it robs, but to your point, it robs us of the nuance of like of genuinely of like everything I feel. You know, you know what you've seen it? What's the thing about athletes? Honestly, one of my favorite things about podcasts has been, have you seen how many athletes have podcasts now? Yeah. Where they now like say like the real thing. Oh my God. I love it so much. It's the greatest move on a sports girl. Oh, you are. Oh. Yeah. Which sports? Volleyball. I mean, I wash. I take a ball. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I play pick of all six days a week. Yeah, let's go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's go. It's not like you got a good nose. I'm a white lady. That's it. Like, I'm a, I'm a white lady over 50. I mean, this is not a bunch of, what do you get to say next? I bet you bake sourdough. Well, you play pickable six days a week. I dare. I have found my kind. Please don't do that. Let's go. You want to play? You know what's funny about this is. You know what's funny? Please. You know what's funny about this. You teach me. I mean, he's been trying to don't don't flirt with me. If you want to learn pick about, I'm going to teach you. I'm going to find a court. I'm going to teach you. Look. Back where I come from, we say, I'm available. Can you tell what I'm from? I'm available. Boy. Water. You know what I love is you brought up pickable. So Eugene hates how much I love pickable. Yes. And so my deal. Are you feeling? Wait. Is that around it? No. Are you feeling left out? No. I love that. I'm not part of this. Eugene hates how much I love pickable. So the two I've made for our friendship is I don't bring it up. But he brought it up. That's what I love about this moment is that he has broken upon himself. I'm constantly trying to find reinforcements here. And everywhere I go, turn quotes everywhere. Everyone plays pickable at some point, loves it. And I'm like, this guy just the fact that he loves that thing and I've tried immersing myself in it. I've gone through his pickable matches at night. Yes. You don't play with us. No, this is not a spectator. I don't even want to touch this thing. It's not a great spectator sport. It's the best participation sport. It's participate. I mean, but you know what? I see you. I think you want to play pickable. Yeah. I think you do. I think. I like the clothes. I think the shorts are freeing the shorts. I mean, there's a lot of issues to wear the shorts and not have to explain yourself to anyone. I need to see what shorts you're talking about first. He's shorts. What kind of shorts to you wear? Oh, you wear shorts shorts. Are we talking like? Are they short shorts? Larry Bird Celtic shorts? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, but you're too much over the knee because it kind of squashes you in. But too the knee? But almost just almost by the knee just enough to two fingers. Can I borrow him to go shopping and play pickable any time? I'm going to put you in some nine inch. I thought I'd make shorts and they were going to play pickable. No long socks. I'm with you. I can't do long socks. But can you do, can you do ankle socks? Are you a no show guy? I can do an ankle sock at a push to solidify our relationship because I'm giving you just a little bit just to show you that I trust you like I go secret socks any day. Talked in. No one can see. I'm good. If you're saying, okay, Eugene, if you're going to go with these socks, I would feel like you're trying to get involved in my world because I like submerging myself in people's worlds. If you give me a nine inch hem on your short, I'll give you no show socks. Give me a seven and maybe I'll do a crew. Wow. You saw it here first. I did see it here first. Yeah. Yeah. That is impressive. No, we're playing. Like I will fly back here to play. Just an impressive deal making order, you wish, but wait, wait, but I want to know let's go back to the sports things. Wait a minute. Okay. One thing I want to say because I'm like, I just want to finish it. I want to go back to when the news was a loss leader. Yeah. It was a financial loss leader, but it was an equity builder for trust in the network. Yes. So news was a loss leader financially, but it's only job really was to build equity in the network so that other people didn't have that job, which I think is part of, I don't want a talk show host being tasked with building equity in trust. I don't want that because something has failed something has failed and I don't believe you to begin with like you're in a bit you're in a bit right now like you know and so but the news when the news is job was to build equity through public trust without regard to financial encumberment I guess we were a better I think we were better than and then pickleball I do play six days a week and it's been it's been one of the most fun because I was a tennis player for 40 years and I follow a lot of sports I follow go birds I'm an Eagles fan I'm a huge Liverpool fan in fact I just it no ways Eugene has just been thrust into oh you jeet I'm sorry this feels like a trap and I didn't that's what I'm saying come on I swear I didn't do this you walk on walk on this time be happy you love pickle and you're a Liverpool fan yeah in fact I was just on a podcast in the UK and they handed me their phone and they said hit play and it was Stephen Gerard saying yeah yeah that's that's what goosebumps when you said that yeah me too and feel baby ride or die I'm dying I've never had anyone actually respond to ride or die I don't go anyway because we got more what now after this I so I want to know like going back to sort of the way we started this is when people like take you seriously where people is there a weights because I don't know when when did you like become Brunei Brown and what I mean by that is you're Brunei Brown but then at some point you become Brunei Brown you're not just Brunei you're not Miss Brown you're Brunei Brown and people Brunei Brunei Brown Brunei Brown Brunei Brown then you're in an airport so Brunei Brunei Brunei Brunei my life Brunei Brown and then a company leader Brunei Brown Brunei Brunei Brunei Brunei Brown Brunei I love to know like when that happened and how weird that was for your life because it fascinates me because of the thing we're talking about right you know an athlete or somebody who plays the sport that they play and then we are shocked in society when they do anything human outside of what they do yeah does that make sense yeah spotted NBA superstar drunk at a party and you're like why is that a thing why is that a thing because we only see them in one space we only see them in one world we now we now make them one idea you you are you are a fixed metastasized idea of a human being and anything beyond that is wrong yeah and also can't be you I think the minute that happens I don't let me think about another word I wish there was another word for dehumanizing that wasn't dehumanizing so I want to save dehumanizing for the really big catastrophic trauma oh yeah yeah but I wish there was a word that was like reductive reductive it's flattening yeah and so I think oh yeah no I get that I don't know whenever I whenever I became that thing that you're talking about was really shocking for me because when you are a public person this is what my therapist has taught me and I think it's been helpful when you're a public person you become like a screen on which shit is projected from other you know you become the screen and people project all their shit on you and so if I say something like if I if I say something on social about ice and then the next thing I know I'll get a picture of all my books on fire in someone's backyard and they'll say you know it's it's they think they know me to the point that there's any dimension of me yes that's not aligned with who they want me to be or who they think I need to be in order to have been helpful to them then they it's like a solid it's actually weird it's actually like betrayal they feel betrayed yes so they burn my books in their backyard and they say you know fuck you I hope you die I hope your family dies I can't you know my daughter you know we our family went through this thing and you were so helpful and now you you know you've changed and I'm like I don't think I've ever written a book that if you really read it not for what you needed but for who I am you would never be surprised by anything I said or posted ever you would never if you if you had not squeezed the life out of me to pluck from me what you need you would never be surprised like I am I'm you know I got arrested in a protest for the first time when I was 16 like this is this is not new for me right and so and I think it's happened both the far right and I think the far left oh definitely yeah far left is you know um that one was harder for me because I had a lot of identity tied up in that and so but I I when I became that thing I just really had to I had to go away for a year or two really oh yeah for oh for sure oh wow yeah and then I had to think um do I want to stay awake because I really love this more pickle ball yeah um but then I thought let's see if I can do it another way and then choose from a place other than fear if I want to go away because right now I'm running I'm not walking I'm not walking towards something I want I'm running from something that I'm I'm afraid of yeah so now I'm in that I'm in that I'm in that decision making thing right now what do you mean I know I know exactly what you mean I get it yeah I think we all do because with with proximity you get a clear of you of if I gave the person what they really wanted doesn't actually change their life so if someone says I wish you would die and go away and you do go away you look back and you go if I was away what really changed but then you go from being away I don't like being away because you've let them choose for you I have let them choose for me yeah I've been in that space where there was something I couldn't confront really and I would listen to what people were saying which was an idea that they had about me the the thing that you spoke about yeah of one step made you the person that they think you are and you stray a little bit because of what news say or an excess about you and you start believing and then you go let me be away so there's nothing to talk about right but then you go I'm still living while being away right I'm still living while being away that's the hardest part yeah I'm here I'm still here yeah I didn't delete myself I've deleted myself from your existence right but I'm still here then you go okay then I decided to live loudly and say and was on one of the episodes that we first did together where I would say all the things that people were always misconstruing about me and things that were true about me that were deeply hurtful that I went through then I felt so liberated because I felt like I was actually saying it from a point of honesty not from a point of defending myself oh god yeah that's the worst part that's the word I mean it is and then because it's like oh betray yourself last yeah like who yeah yeah you know yeah because at some point when you're defending yourself you're gonna lie about yourself you have to at some point you like and then that thing happened yeah but I know why that thing happened and you keep going back and back and back in the real roles further further further until you go I can't go anymore but when you're telling the truth it's quicker it's better and it's liberating it's like the deep side that I felt after we did that episode yeah that episode was long was like three hours because we had hangout before and then we did the episode and we hang out often the relief I felt of knowing that I said what I wanted to say and I didn't care because I've experienced the worst from people who say this we are and this is what you did and na na na na and I gave them the thing that they wanted I went away but I told the truth and I said I'm not going anyway okay this is so powerful can I ask you a question so when the people are thinking when you think about the people one thing that you said that I have a question about is who people think I am do you think it's who people think you are or do you think it's who people need you to be in order to work out their own shit in order to you know feel better about themselves is it really is is the struggle really about who people think we are or is it really about who people really need me to be because if it's yeah genuine because if it's about who people think we are yeah I spent a lot of time trying to work to change that oh no like let me go in the comments it's oh actually that's not true that you know but then I realized well this is a fucking losing battle because this is not about who people think I am this is about who people need me to be. People need me to be this. Yeah. Because if I'm not this, it's confronting to them in a way that's uncomfortable. Yeah. And I think one of the, that's so powerful. I think one of the most unfair thing that people can ask from other people is not honesty, is not reliability, is consistency, is a human I can't guarantee that I'm going to be consistent in anything. In liking you as a partner in being consistent at my job or loving the job the same way again or working the same path, I cannot promise that I'm going to be consistent. But what I can promise is I'm going to do it from a place of love. So whatever it is that I change in my ways that would make someone go, you're not the same person anymore. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm not doing it to hurt you. I'm not doing it to hurt myself. I can promise you now that I'm not going to be consistent in this, but I'll try to do it from a place of love. And that's what I've had to do. And I've had this conversation with my daughter. And I said, there's things that we used to do together, not going to be consistent with. You'll look at it and go, hmm, we used to do this and consistently. And now, you know, doing it anymore. And I'm like, yeah, whatever change happened in whatever path I chose to be consistent on and venture on. I'm doing it from a place of love. But I realized that I couldn't be this reliable, consistent person to everyone because it was all small little roles that everyone assigned. And when I straight it a little bit and everyone go, what are you doing? So it's really, wow. I find, I find one of the more fascinating aspects of life is that we can all solve a Rubik's cube using completely different techniques. At the end, we always, you know, most people end up in the same place. But you find we all got there in different ways. So somebody figured out like a trick to align the things in one direction. Other people just kept moving the pieces around until they got like all the lines. Someone just went, I'm going to take the colors off. I'm going to peel the stickers off. Yeah. Line them up. There you go. So some people, but the point is we're all trying to get to the same place. What I'm genuinely, eternally grateful for, even in this conversation we're having here is I had one of the stranger interactions with people online. Because I, I didn't, I never engage with the comments section. But I went, I would engage with the commenters in the section. I get a DM or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it. And I've told you this story before, but like when I was very early on starting the daily show, people were just like, this person shouldn't be here. We hate him already. He's terrible. He can't say, he doesn't say women properly. Because in South Africa, we, we say like when we're talking about like we say women, that's plural for, but Americans say women. Yeah. But we say we pronounce the oh more, you know, and people like can't even say the word women properly. And it was like this whole thing. But it was everything, right? And then there was, there was one commenter who was more prominent than others in the mix. And I DMed him and I was genuine because I was new to this. I went, Hey, why do you hate me so much? And I'll never forget there's a guy from Canada. And he went, his response, he was actually beautifully effusive. He was like, Hey, Trev. Hey, buddy, I don't hate you at all. Said, I, I'm just joining in with what everyone's saying. And it's fun. And we're piling in. And he, he wrote it out. I could probably still find it in my DMs. He wrote it out. And can I tell you, I'm eternally grateful to him because he was honest enough to be aware of what was actually happening because someone might be like, you know why? Well, they try and like put it back on you. He was like, Oh, yeah, you've done nothing wrong. We're a mob. And as a mob, we're coming for you. It's a lot of fun. And this is what the internet does. Welcome to the internet, buddy. And he was like, just for, for the record, I think you're very funny. I do think you're going to fail on the daily show. But I think you're very funny. And I wish you the best luck. And I just went, what is, what is happening here? And and I, I know the sounds crazy. But just that interaction gave me a third way to think of it. It went, I went, it is not that the person people think I'm this way. It is not even that they need me to be this way. I have just happened to step into the spot where somebody was about to drop a bucket of water. You happen. Does that make sense? Yeah, you happen into the spot. Yeah, the right. So the way I started thinking of it is I went everywhere all the time in our lives as people. We have buckets that we're filling with water. And that that water is whatever emotions they may be. We've got a bucket of love. We've got a bucket of anger. We've got a bucket of hate. We've got a bucket of disdain. Whatever these things are, we find out about your water balloons. I like that. You are a water balloon kind of guy. Accuracy. So I can already see it. So we're filling them up. We're filling them up. Or they're being filled up. They're being filled up. And if you're not aware of it, you know, they get full, they get full. And then at some point you tip it out. Whoever's there, when the tipping happens gets all of it. They just get all of it. And this person made me realize sometimes we make it seem like the bucket is being tipped on us. It's just being tipped over there. It's just being tipped. And you are perfectly positioned for the tipping to happen. And so I find sometimes it happens in life. A parent will fill up their bucket with, you know, for sure. You know, it's like all the things that frustrate them and work. And this and then the kid will be there at the moment that they tipping the bucket. You little shit, all the shit. And then the kids like, huh, man. Wow. I'm drenched in hate. I don't think I deserve this much water for what I did. Right. And now you the tipper. And you're going, I mean, the same thing happens on the internet, though, is when you open the app on a day and your bucket is filled in a certain way, you will find the thing to tip into because it's there already. Yeah. So if you're in a good mood, you'll be shocked at how quickly you scroll past the bad stories. And when you're in like a rage, you know, and you open that app and you're going to find, and then you go like, you know what? Take this bucket. Here you go. How dare you study law, Kim Kardashian? Who the hell do you think you are? Why did that make you angry? Yeah. Genuinely, what are you angry about? What offended you so much? She thinks she can go and be a lawyer. But why are you angry? Yeah. What are you actually angry about? Especially when it's like a complete random person on the other side of the globe. And so what it taught me was, and maybe there's like a components of spiritualism about it was genuinely, I'll go like, oh, it's not about you. But like in a really wonderful way. Yeah. It's like, it's not, it's just not about you. It's really not. Yeah. It's not about you. It's not about you. But maybe maybe that's the thing. I would say it's not about you. Outrage offers us a chance to be mean without taking responsibility. Definitely. Yeah. Why? But why not? Yeah. Explain. No. I also think we need it, though. Being outraged. Yes. I think I think in society, this is why I love sports. And this is why I think sports is one of the most important things society has. Same. It's the reason I believe people should go to stadiums. That's why I think tickets should stay cheap. They should be affordable so people can go. Okay. I believe that they should be multitudes. You know why? Because it is a place where it is appropriate for you to hate. And you let that hate out. God kill you. I get that out of the field. Are you piece of shit? And you can then be like, all right, let's go home, Billy. Come on, come on, boys. I've never looked at it like that. Yeah. Because we are getting fewer and fewer spaces and places in society where we can tip out our buckets in a safe, you know, an acceptable way. When can you tip off your bucket? You know, like, you can't even fight as kids anymore. So you can't tip off that bucket. So when does that happen? It can't. When can you sway at somebody? You can't. You can't. So you can't tip that bucket. When can you, and if you can't, I feel like we just become more and more and more repressed. The feeling you get, you've seen me when I, if I watch a Liverpool game with Ryan and Ryan's wife will always say, you should be like, why do you do this to yourself? And I go, 'cause it's amazing. Yeah. I get to ride a rollercoaster of emotion. I get to swear. I get to be angry. I get to be joyful. I get what to be in 90 minutes. I get to ride a wave of emotions. Yeah. That if we're honest in the grand scheme of things, doesn't really affect me. I think that's a beautiful thing in life. I think it's, I think it's worth preserving for people. But now we have fewer and fewer avenues for it. And one of the last ones is social media where people anonymously can just come and be like outrage. Yeah. Anger. Sports fans usually, when their team wins, they go, we won. Yeah. And when the team loses, they go, we lost. Yes. What's up with that? I'll tell you, we're singing a group. I think it means where do you enter? How do you enter into it? Yeah. 'Cause why, why did we lose? That's, that's a, that's a, that's a, can I, can I tell you? That's another reason I love sports. Yeah. We're there. We take for granted. Yeah. I don't know. We're there. What is Anfield without the fans? What's UT football without fans? The top men phenomena is a real thing. 100%. Experiencing all the emotions. Oh, I work with a lot of sports teams. Yeah. No, you, you, yeah, I mean, you have to, the 12th man is such a real thing that if you're playing, if you're playing a, an opponent that has a strong 12-man element. I would say 12th person because I'm a women's sports person to you, but 12th person, let's say 12 man fucking hell. I can't. I don't know 12 man. This is what I say. - Financial times aren't. (laughing) - 12 man, by 12 man. (laughing) - The man-ish. (laughing) 12 person, 12 person. - You know, can I tell you the funniest thing about that? This is like just perspective to that. So my mom lives the most offline existence of most human beings I know. She almost lives apart from time for the most part, right? And sometimes I like to engage my mom with things that current society is like dealing with. Just to see how she processes it, almost from an off-the-grid perspective, right? - The cabin in the woods. - Yeah, completely. And I'll just be like, "Hey, what do you think about?" And one of my favorite ones was asking her about this. And I said, "You know, I'll say this like I'll poke "but not in like an agitating way." But I'll be like, "Oh, should we not also say, you know, "because it's person, because, and then my mom goes. " She literally said to me, she went, "Not even fighting." She's like, "What do you mean?" The man covers everyone. Then I'm like, "No, it doesn't. Fire man." And then she's like, "Spell woman for me?" And then I was like, "W-O-M-A-N." She's like, "What's at the end of it?" She's like, "We're using the abbreviation for everyone." She's like, "I've never thought of it like that." She's like, "Yeah, fire man." She's like, "Because it's like human." So I'm taking all of this and she's like, "Woman, human, man." She's like, "It's all. " We've just gendered the last part. She was like, "I will." She's like, "No, you would, gender. I'm not." It's just the abbreviation. And all that. That's interesting. Yeah, and she was like, "I don't know why there's a problem." Yeah, the top man sounds better than the top person. Nish, you man. Yeah, but it's also, for me, it just gave me a perspective that I didn't have. Yeah, where I went, "Ha, human, human." And my mom genuinely was processing it from that lens. She was going, "If there's a dog that fights fire, we'll call it a fire dog. If there's a human that fights fire, we'll call it a fire man." That's how she was doing it. Yeah, she was going the end of this man, he's at the end. Yeah, the species of the man parts. Yeah. The man is not gendered. No, no, that's in her head. That's how she was doing it. And I was like, "Damn, what an interesting way." Yeah, that isn't, linguistically, it's really interesting. I would say, "When we make a dollar for the dollar, then I'll let go of the gendered new show." But until, while we're making the 74 cents, I'm going to be going 12th person. Well, I don't give a shit whether it sounds good or not. And if it would have started 12th person, it would sound normal now. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, but that's language. But that's language. Everything's going to sound weird until it's normal. So, but the 12th person, the stands are, as a player, is so significant that it changes the training weeks leading up to games where that phenomenon is the strongest. I always show this great clip when I'm talking to leaders, and I think it was Colorado going to play Oregon. And their stands are so nuts that for the week leading up to the training, they just put the Oregon fight song on huge stacks of speakers at the training and follow the players around. No way. Because you can't hear, it's so demoralizing. You can't hear the play calls. You know, when it's third down, I'm a Longhorn fan, so University of Texas, third down, it just says on the big thing, "Make noise." And we get so loud that they can't hear the play call. So they're probably going to, if they can't hear the play call, how fast or slow the pocket collapses around the quarterback will change. And that means they will probably try to run the ball instead of throw the ball. And if we're in like a short yardage situation, I mean, it just gets very complicated, so it gets messy. So, 100%, I mean, I think you saw that at the Derby, you know, Liverpool. You saw that it's just, it's very, if you love football, you can watch people fighting that tears. There are fans of the other team in Anfield when they sing, you'll never walk away. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just, it's, it's, man, it's magic, goosebumps have goosebumps have goosebumps. It's like pickleball. You can't even, you know, you know, you know who said it the other day actually was, they asked, wow, they asked, Luis and Rike, the coach of PSG, they said, "Hey, we read a story that you snuck into a Liverpool match right after you retired from playing football. You came in, you watched the, and then first he was taken aback, then he's like, oh, he's like, who was that question? And then he's like, that's good research." And then he's like, yeah, I just wanted to come to Liverpool to, to, to, to experience it. And he says, oh, he's like, it's not just a stadium. He says it was, he's like, you feel the fans, you feel it, it's a cathedral. Yeah. It, it, it makes the people feel different. I've seen teams lose because the fans got nervous. Yeah. The fans start being like, and then the players are like, yo, stop that, man. And just, you know, you feel that on stage as a comedian, but you see, think about it. There's sometimes you're telling a joke. And there's an audience that is completely comfortable and with you, you, you'll, you'll go to the craziest places with that joke. Of course, yeah. And then sometimes there's audiences where as soon as you, you, you go down a, then they're like, oh boy, you cheating. We all don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't lose our jobs, you cheat. And then you go, damn, if I go, I'm going alone, do I want to go alone? When an audience is with you, that's when I mean, you know, you make magic that you couldn't, you guys are shifting my perspective. And it's, I know it's a sports analogy, but now I'm starting to get a little bit. And about how you describe the 12th person, it's, I've always looked at sports as exclusive instead of inclusive. So I've never, I've never looked from the field to the crowd thinking this thing is bringing them together. They're having a hard dog. They're meeting up. They're dressed the same. They agree on what the play should be. I've always looked at why do those people get to do what they like and the rest of them have to watch them. Oh, wow. That's how you've seen it. I've always seen it like that. Oh, no, never understood. Why, why, why would everyone come to watch these people, few people doing what they like? And then rest of them don't have the opportunity to do what they like. I've always looked at it as exclusive instead of inclusive. So this is really interesting because, okay. I think I disagree with some of the things you said from, from a different perspective. Do it. Okay. Yeah. So I'm going to go back because there were so many things that I'm going to, when we, we, I interviewed you at a conference, like was a year and a half, two years ago. Probably. Yeah. I've not stopped thinking about that conversation. And I really have beef with you on one of the things you said because it really changed my worldview. Oh, I love it. Oh, it really pissed me off. Let's do it. But so that, so I don't want to leave with this unfinished business this time. So, so one, that's what we, that's what we're going to do for this episode, Brunei Brown, unfinished business. That's what we're going to call it. I'm going to need you in some seven and so much in, if you're, if you're going to be with me, I want some short short, baby, I want like, I want like, Larry Bird, five inch, yeah, okay. So, I, I don't know that I disagree with you, but I'm trying to make sense of things. So one, the, the collective bucket is full. And you're in the right place at the wrong time and you're going to catch the stuff flowing from the bucket, whether it's hate, sometimes it's love, sometimes you're the right place to catch the love. Okay. So I absolutely experienced that and like I had to fight when I had to fight not crying when you were talking about it because I have been in the exact right place at the exact wrong time and really caught rage, just just buckets and buckets and buckets of rage. So I think that's true. The other thing that is weird that I've never had a conversation about in my life because I didn't want to admit to my team, I didn't want to admit to my therapist that I have DMed a couple of people on occasion and said, man, it's really hard to hear that you think this about me. Right. And I'm curious about, can you help me understand what you're basing that on? Like, where, what, what, how did that happen? I want to know. And it's always been like, oh my God, pretty proud. Yes. Is DM me? And then it's like, they share their screenshot and I love her and she really, you know, and then I've never once had someone come back to me with never once. I've only probably done it so small sample size four or five times. But it's always been kind and, you know, and so that's weird. The thing that I would say about the inclusive versus exclusive and the collective dumping of emotion is one thing that we're, we haven't talked about yet that I think is neurobiologically, I know is neurobiologically hardwired is belonging. And so genuine belonging is very, very difficult because belonging doesn't ask us to fundamentally change who we are. It requires that we be who we are. So if I'm, if y'all are friends and I'm at a, you know, I can't get a brief from my team on y'all and know exactly what to say. Because then I'm not being myself and if you like me for that, I know it's fraught. Right. Because the second I'm myself and I'm, I'm not. I'm doomed. Genuine belonging really requires the capacity for people to stand on their own and be alone. And if you can stand on your own and be alone and then be yourself and then there's real connection. So genuine belonging is tough. One of the fastest neuro hacks to belonging is collective shot and Freud. - No way. - That is one of the, that is, it gives us full body feelings of belonging. We are going to connect mutually in watching this person fall. And it gives us all kinds of goosebumps. It gives us all kinds of sense of where together. And what I say is, I don't really know you, but our connection, the three of us is we hate the same people. - Yeah. - We're the public square for a hanging. - Yeah, we're at the public square for a hanging. And there's a couple of things that are happening at the public square at the moment. One, we're gathered. One, there's a ton of adrenaline. Two, we're very limbic in the part of our mind that's very fight flight. You know, we're also mitigating each other's shame. About enjoying this. - That's what a mob, do you see this with firing squad? - Yeah. Yeah, we're mitigating each other's shame. So the collective shot in Freud about watching someone, especially who's got celebrity or a platform fail, is it's not lasting or meaningful. It's kind of like you're hard wiring it. I mean, hot wiring it, like you hot wire a car if you're stealing it, right? But it's there. So that's one thing I would say is we, I don't think we can forget the counterfeit connection we get from collective shot in Freud. And in a world where so many people are in pain, and need don't have what it takes to forge real connection because we're so lonely right now. It's very, it's a really, it's a surefire way to get it. It's just absolutely a falsteen bargain, right? - We've never been so alone. - Right. - In a room full of people. - Right. - Open your phone. - Thousands of people. - Right. - So you're right. We've never been so alone. - Right. - And so we're so alone. So we are so, and again, neurobiologically hardwired for connection in the absence of connection. There is always 100% of the time suffering. And so we're suffering. And so to be with a group of people, even in the comment section, for it's a hit. It's just a hit of connection really quickly. It is corrosive and damaging over time 'cause we know it's not real, but it can give us something quick. So I would say we should really think about the collective shot and Freud and need for belonging that we're getting. The second thing I would say is one of the things that worries me a little bit about, and I get criticized for this a lot. And I think some of the criticism has been helpful. 'Cause I mean, when I wrote Strong Ground, it probably has the last, the probably the last leadership book I'll ever write. And it came out last year. It probably has 30 sports benefits in it, like chapters built. I mean, there's a chapter called the Tush Push. There's it, you know, it's just, it's based on it. 'Cause I think sport is leadership theater. - It's everything, yes. - Yeah, right. - I think it's life theater. - It's life theater, it really is. And so the one thing I would say is dangerous is, us collectively coming together to find a place to empty our rage bucket. For me is the best of sport and why sometimes I find it indefensible and the worst of sport. - Interesting, okay. - So we know that the busiest day of the year for domestic violence hotlines is Super Bowl Sunday. - I did not know that. - Yeah, we know more women are beat by male partners on Super Bowl Sunday. - On being serious? - Oh yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. We know that, and I'm talking about this honestly, because I came from kind of a baller family. We were athletes, my dad played football in college. But I also grew up with a very complex father who Sundays were not safe in our house, based on how the games went. 'Cause we weren't, you know, American, we grew up within a fell was like our primarily, right? So I would also say that giving ourselves permission to feel hate or rage in sport is really dangerous. So right now what I'm seeing with college football teams that I work with are, and I hate to be the downer in this, but I think it's a really important conversation. - The realist. - The realist, it's not even down. - Are these 18 to 22-year-old kids that are playing college football that are, and we'll get into a really hard topic here that are getting death threats every day, because betting has become such a problem. - It's a scourge. - It's a scourge, right? - It's a scourge. - And fuck the people who do it and that market to young boys who are lonely and need the, you know, the hit. So these football players, many of them who've trained and worked their whole lives for a lot of them, it's their way out, it's their way to college education, are getting, you know, really death threats every day that, hey, your fumble cost me my parlay. - Mm-hmm. - And so sometimes, you know, as a UT football, huge fans, season ticket holder, sometimes I have to put myself in a trance to get through a game when I'm seeing that, you know, 240-pound guy yelling at the 19-year-old kid. - We're getting you the kid. - That you're a loser and you're ass out there, and, you know, and I'm like, these are kids. Like, it's, I think sports is the best of us, but I also think it's the worst of us. - I agree completely. - Look at the racism and European football. Like, I mean, just, so, I think, I think, I think people should take more accountability for their buckets. - Oh, that I completely agree with. - Yeah. - No, what I was referring to is the person who has been drenched. I was, you know, I was talking about, like, how, as a person who catches it, the person who catches it, you've experienced it in your life, you've been a child, you have been a spouse or a partner, you've been an employee, you've been a citizen, you've been a bystander, you've, whatever it is, you've been somebody who has experienced a drenching, and all I was referring to is the thing that helps me, even though the drenching doesn't necessarily change, is just trying to remember that that bucket - Could have hit anyone. - Could have hit anyone, and it just makes, it helps me remember it, because I think sometimes what happens in life-- - It's really interesting. - What sometimes happens in life is we, without knowing it, ask ourselves or blame ourselves or question ourselves or infer anything about ourselves because the thing happened. - What did I do to bring this on? - Anything, man, I wish I hadn't crossed the street that day. I shouldn't have been walking. I shouldn't have, you know, because we've been raised in many worlds, depending on your culture as well, so many of us have been told that we are the masters of our universe, that when it rains, it's raining on me, I shouldn't have been, it's like, but what this, that's why I say it's a little, it's, some of it is almost a little spiritual, 'cause when I was in Bhutan, and there were monks who articulated it way better than I had ever been able to like fumble through it, they sort of made me realize they were like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. The thing is not happening to you in that way. You are there, so it is happening, you know? And so we think of-- - Oh, I got chills. - We always think of everything in the world focused on us. Like it's got a point of view, we are at the center of it. We struggle to consider the possibility that we are on the periphery of anything. That's why I said, when the extraction happened, when I step back, I'm like, these things are still happening. - Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, that's what I mean. - Yes. So to come back to it, I love what you're saying. Because that thing, that's one of the biggest things that we always have to work on in a society is going, hey, just because your bucket got full, doesn't mean that now, you know what I mean? It's the same, we do it with trash fun enough in real life. We go like, just because your trash is full, you can't just go dump it in the streets, find a place where-- - There's a legal way to go and get rid of your trash. There's a correct way that society has determined. You cannot just dump your, no, no, no, no, no. Just because your toilet is full, doesn't mean you can like, go pour it in the hallway of your apartment building. - Oh, well. - But you get what I'm saying, there's rules about this. And what I'm saying is-- - But when you think it, where do you think? - What I'm saying is I wish in society to your point, actually. I wish we spent more time discussing and trying to figure out the emotional spaces for dumping, the remote-- Like, because we forget that nobody teaches us these things. Nobody teaches anybody these things unless you really go out and look for it. - Not the emotional offloading, no one teaches you these things. But you do know, even a child is taught how to throw their trash away. Hey, hey, hey, you don't put that on the ground. You go in, you put it inside the trash. No, no, no, no, we don't throw it out the window. We go in, we put that, you don't throw it another person. We're going in and just at a very young age you learn that the trash you have, is meant to go into that vessel over there. In Japan, when I was there, it was even a high level. - That's not it. - They were like, no, no, you keep your track, and you take it home with you, and then you deal. There's no one who's gonna come fetch bins in the street. - But they're the same people that disappear into a photo that never come out. So now, it is, but it is that, actually, it's that extreme, they've gone like one extreme. So what I'm saying, I wish we had exactly your sentence. I wish we had more of learning and teaching each other how to throw our emotional trash away in a bin and not in a person and not on the floor, and doesn't make sense. - It totally makes sense. - But I wanna know, so that's why, okay, yes. That's why I think sports could be a dangerous place to do it because depending on how dirty your trash is, it still can be dangerous. What's the composting plan? Like, so I could say easily, but this is not accessible for everyone. I could say, I have tons of bins full of shit. So therapy has, therapy has, and coaching has taught me to compost my stuff, but that's not accessible to everyone. - And I know, yeah, I think I figured this out and I was having a conversation this week and I said that composting plant for that discourse is healthy, disagreeability with people that you like. - Yeah. - I do agree with that. - Oh my God, that's good. Say that again. - Healthy, disagreeability with people that you like. - Okay, wait a second. - I'm trying to show you. - Yes. - And I'm going to compost it because I'm going to have healthy. - Disagreeably. - A hundred percent. - Is it someone that I like? - Is it someone you like? Or is it someone you trust? - Both. - It could be someone I love, someone I like, someone I trust. - It's interesting, but I actually get along with. - Yes, I do know, I do know the one thing that could, that scares me the most that you would have, you said at the beginning was belonging. I know that's not threatened, but us not agreeing. It's not threatened. - That is so rare. - I'm never going to not belong. Yeah, anymore, just because we had this healthy. The fact that you like Liverpool and I like nothing is healthy. 'Cause it's a disagreeability that's healthy. It doesn't threaten the way you think of me. - No. - I will never not belong anymore in this friendship. So I'm training that muscle and I'm learning a little bit of rejection here and a little bit of being wrong here and sometimes giving in. 'Cause I've learned that sometimes in those healthy and disagreeabilities people go, "Oh, I see." - Okay, I am having such a moment. I do love you even though it will go to Anfield after pickleball. - You will never walk alone. (laughing) - He would be dead after me, I said that like you meant it. I got goosebumps when you said it. - Thank you, wow, come on. - What is he doing? - He's such a troll. - He's such a troll, right? - He knows exactly. He knows exactly. To be an excellent troll, you have to be willing to delve into the depths of the things that you wish to troll about. That's Eugene's level of dedication. He'll learn players, coaches, games, everything so that he can fully participate in the level of trolling that he needs to. - Yeah, I mean, I felt like you just did something where it's like, I'm like, "Hey," and I'm like, "Oh, I'm bleeding." (laughing) I just got shibbed, but I didn't even feel it going. - No, no, no, no, no, no, really gently. - It's the smile. - Yeah, it's the shipping versus the shanking. (laughing) - Okay, I am, okay, so what's so weird is she-- - My shoe. - Yeah, can you put that shit away? Yeah, yeah, okay, got it. In your five-inch short. (laughing) - Okay, so I'm like, I'm connecting things that are maybe true, or maybe not, let's just try it on. So you said something, when you listed all the things that are happening as we disagree. Like, "Ooh, I'm kind of, I'm taken one to the chin, I'm given one, I'm being forgiven, I'm forgiving, there's some grace, like that back and forth that happens, right? When you belong, and you can really disagree. One of the things that I'm tying that to when you said, we're not kids are not fighting anymore, which is probably good that we're not like to the degree that when I was raised, where you-- - Oh, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, that's right. - You know, there's degrees of everything, yeah? - Right, exactly, but I will say, one thing that's really, one of the things that's really coming up for me is the research on the importance of play. - Yes. - And physical play, and kind of shoving down play. Swinging in from the bar, and I kick you, and then you, you know, because one of the things it does when we're young is play teaches us a lot about how to develop relationships in the context of learning how to push, how to be pushed, how to forgive, how our choices actually impact other people, and how to, we can wrestle and have fun and enjoy it, there's a line, right? And kids are not playing anymore. Kids are on screens, they're not playing anymore. So I think, I'm just curious about like, it goes back to even our conversation about sanitized interviews or weaponized interviews. We just don't know how to get in there and shove around a little bit and become better human beings. - And even here when I, no, no, I was gonna say so. So even with, you know, what I love is the framing that you're using there with the kids. I think we take for granted how, how adept kids are at actually understanding that play delineates from life. So if you remember being a kid, there are things that would happen on the playground or in a play setting that would hurt you, that would make you angry, that would make you happy, that whatever it was, but in a strange way, you knew that that wasn't your life. - That's 100% true. - Does that make sense? So you could say with a kid, I mean, your father, but you could like say with a kid, you could go, what happened, and it was like, oh, they don't push while you're playing, but there was this weird, there was this line where you sort of like knew that that happened in the playland, even though it was real, but it happened in playland. And then you can now come back to normal life where it is not happening. - Yeah, you heard your need doing that. - Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, that thing happened there. The person pushed you there, and while it is still not acceptable, it is more acceptable that it happens there. So if a kid pushes you on the playground, when I, at least when I was growing up, they would deal with it differently to if a kid pushed you in class. - Yeah, for sure. - Don't play rough. - Right. - But in class it was like, no, no, no, no, no, you're fighting. - Right. - This is full on like you. - No, okay, I don't know where this is going, but this is so true. Okay, yes, that's true. - But you get what I'm saying. - 100%. - So what I know. - The sky is real. - Yes. - But it happened there. - In a context where it was normalized. - Yes. - And it was almost not real. That's the main thing for me is that it was almost not real. Maybe that's where, 'cause I'm starting to realize, yeah, there's a pattern of the effects of things that we feel, say for example, you're in a relationship. - Yes. - You are being vulnerable to this person. - Yeah. - And then they throw it back at you. - Oh God. - Later on. - Yeah. - Like, no, it happened there when I was feeling this, but now you bring it here. So that scar is real, that pain is real, but it's at the wrong place. We're not at the playground. So you're not allowed to shove me. And then the fall won't be associated with play. - Yeah, it's not. - Yes, the fall is real. - Because now you've taken what should be happening there and it's happening here. - So the best way I can, if I go back to sports, this is what I will say. One of the things I try to remind myself of is the fact that there are many things happening in the world that are merely magnifying glasses on a symptom, but they're not the cause. So where I'll go back on the sports thing is I'll go, it is sad to say, but it's probably true. I don't think domestic abuse changed because of sports. I don't know the numbers, but if I was, if I was to bet, I would say, I don't think that domestic abuse changed because of sports. - No. - If I still go back to the bucket, I go, that man uses the sports to fill his buckets, who's in the house with him, his wife and his kids. - I'm processed rage. - But the buck he used, so that sports game became the thing that like, all right, now I've got the excuse. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - That's right, that's right. - It's the excuse now. But the excuse would have come from anything and anywhere. And so that's why, so maybe this will help, like what I love about it in the right ways. One of the things that has gone down in soccer at least over the years, racism has gone down. There's still many instances, but it's definitely gone down in football and footballing. Another thing that's gone down is violence. - I agree. - So the hooligans? - Yeah, it's really gone down. There's still definitely case, but it's not what it used to be. And again, this is just me and my observation of the game. I think one of the things we take for granted in the sport, and I'll show you why I think this is important, is I think it, when athletes themselves saw and treated each other like humans beyond the uniforms, I think the teams and the fans also started seeing that as a possibility, subconsciously or consciously, And what I mean by that is, if your team is playing on the field and they go punch the other team, something went wrong on the field and they start punching, I believe you are more likely to feel like it is apt for you to go and punch someone outside because they wearing another uniform. Right. That's what I believe. Right. If they do it first. Yes. Oh, I think violence is normalized then. Yeah. You go like, this is what we need to do to the other. Yeah. This is normalized. If you look to, they do it. I will go outside and I, I too shall do it. But when you see them helping each other up hugging, talking after the game, just like not having that thing. What else to give the other person a breather. Sort of what happened in, was it one of those big WrestleMania's at Madison Square Garden where like, I think it was like, I don't know who was breaking off. It might have been like, who's the guy with the kick again? Was his name? They say I'm sexy, Sean Michaels. Yes. They were like, they were breaking off from him. What did you? I had to do the move. Did you think you gravitate today? I am. I thought it was the rest of the song. It's sexy. Yeah. I don't know how to dance. You see? Dance, dance, dance, sexy. Cognitive? Bias. No. The world of science. We call that. Leave me alone. So. I'm like, fascinated. No. No. I like. I'm like Wimbledon. No, I know it's a long explanation. But this is what I mean. No, I'm tracking it. In that moment. Yeah. What the wrestlers did was. Yeah. Some wrestlers were breaking off to a different federation. And they were like, live and- Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then on the night, they stopped in the middle of a fight. And they went and they hugged each other. And they were like, I'm going to miss you. But they were like, like enemies on the wrestling. Yeah. They were the rivals. I love those human moments and sports. Yeah. And my favorite. But so many people in wrestling and the fans, they were so angry because it like broke the thing that they were trying to maintain. Do you know what I mean? I mean, they were like directly in the camera. Like, yeah, they let their humanity out a little bit. But more than that, for me, what I think was the people, especially the fans that night were there, I think they were angry as well because you've taken away our sort of, like, not that people are going to go punch each other. I don't think wrestling at Polygons. But you've sort of put the response a bet, the emotional responsibility back on us now. To check ourselves? Because you can't go that they hate each other and be each other. So you're like, so my rage is just my rage. It's not a, does this make sense? Yeah. It's my thing. It's not their thing. And so when I extrapolated further, I go world leaders. I don't think you can take for granted how in the United States, people always talk about people are more polarized, people, yes. But you know what we should never take for granted? Is the fact that over the past few decades, fewer and fewer politicians from opposite sides of the aisle, because there's only two here for some crazy reason, don't come out together and do things together and show each other together and be together, they don't. And one of the, one of the worst examples of this for me was when, I think it was like Chris Christie was fighting, you know, up against Hillary Clinton back in the, I was like, but these people, they're like friends, they get along, they, it felt like wrestling. I was like, but their fans don't know. The fans don't know that they can't argue about law and still get along. The fans don't know that they're arguing in Congress, but then they go have lunch together. The fans don't know this. Theater. But out there. I'm just saying it's in theater, right? No, but I'll say even theater. Okay. Theater. Yeah, but I'm saying even beyond theater. Let's even give them the benefit of the doubts. Yeah. It may not be theater. It's an aspect of what they do. When you, when you work in government, you argue against the other side, you fight against the other side. That is part of the job. You're playing a sport of fighting politically. But it would be nice if you showed that you also see them as humans when you're not fighting, because I do think then your fans in the stands would go, oh, oh, Mitch McConnell goes for lunch every day with, you know, Chuck Schumau. No, it's why people, they're mine when they say George W. Bush and Michelle Obama. Yeah. Yeah. People are like laughing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People, because now they seem like outliers, because they do that when they, when they get along, but that used to be normal. And I think if you, if the fans don't see it, if the people don't see it, we take for granted how much it's monkey, see monkey, do yeah, but I think I, when I look at sports, sometimes I look at how, because I like watching boxing, but there's one referee. I don't know his name, but whenever he's officiating a fight, he also has blood on his shirt. Have you seen that referee then? I don't watch boxing. He like gets in there. And he's like, what does he look like? He's got a mustache. Yeah. I know him. I think I know him. He's the only referee. He's the black guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know the guy. I know the guy. I know the guy. I know what he feels like. He's been in the game. It feels like he can't take a side because you know who's blood. That is. Yeah. But also I've seen it with football as well. There's coaches who are calm. Who will just sit there or with their hands behind or will just calm the players down. But there's other coaches who are like, yeah, in the game. The fans get instigated, you know, and the outrage becomes more, but the coaches where I feel like if something wrong happens in the field, then the first person to go, yeah. They take responsibility for the men that they lead. And I think that's what's missing right now. There's not enough emotional refereeing that people who know better can do. People who can stand up for each other, who can get themselves bloodied, although not needing to, but then they can get in there and go, this doesn't need to be said. That bucket does not need to be spilled and it wasn't your fault that it was spilled on you. Can I challenge this a little bit? I agree with you, but I actually don't think it's a false thing. I think it's an amplification thing. I would argue there are as many people online who are putting our positive as negative, right? People, not bots and things. So let's exclude that because a lot of the internet is just fake. It's like 40% or it's a crazy number of like things like, I get a thing from Instagram that literally will say 51,000 of your followers are bots. Yeah. Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a large portion there. It's a large portion fan. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. Talk to me bot. HP2811. So. So. So. So let's exclude that part, the fake part of it. I'm saying the people online, yeah. If I, again, if I was just to guess, I would think you probably find it's an equal amount, it may be even more positive. But I think those people don't get amplified. Hmm. I think the person, especially in the digital world, we live in feeling it, even in the political world, et cetera. I think the people who step in to try and referee moments, the people who try and do the, I don't think they get amplified. No. They really, really don't. No. I'm like fixing the square up. Like, I, no, I, oh, okay. I agree with everything you're saying, and I agree with everything you're saying. Please come live at our house. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, bring, pickleball. Yeah. We'll make a net. I'm so frustrated right now that, that I think everything you're saying is true. I think, I wish there was another name for liberal democracy besides liberal democracy, because people here, there were liberal as the adjective to the type of democracy. Yeah. They go just freaking crazy. But democracy, I think democracy depends on what you're describing. I think that's, I think democracy depends on what you're describing. Democracy depends on people understanding that we are not hating, that politicians are not hating each other. They are launching, but they're debating politics. They're debating, you know, that is, I absolutely believe that authoritarianism depends, um, on the vilification and dehumanization of political opponents. So when Trump, you know, whatever his thing, true socials, don't put me back in there. Let's move on. Don't put me back in the piece. You own this freaking platform. Why do you have to have the real dog, not real dog dogs up 4732, I do, um, anyway, but I think like when Robert Mueller died, yeah, and he said, I'm glad he's dead. Like that is not that, that, that could be pathology, but it's also authoritarianism from the playbook. Oh, for sure. So it absolutely depends on that. Um, but what's scarier to me is democracy depends on understanding that policy differences can exist between people who see each other as humans with different ideas about how to achieve the same goal. And what I think is interesting about this time sport back into that where you see this coaches and this is, this is incredible. So when you look at the research on two types of teams, a team plane to not lose versus a team plane to win. So I'll take you right back to kind of the birds and the chiefs, super bowl. Yeah. Um, one of, and this is what's so interesting about what you're saying about amplification. One of, if you, if you blindfolded me and put my back to the field, it doesn't matter the sport. And just had me listen to to what it sounds like on the bench, from Team A and the bench on Team B, I could predict probably with 90% accuracy, the winner, based on the contagion of emotion in the sideline. So negative contagion, the coach that's losing his shit, that kind of stuff, negative contagion is one of the biggest predictors of a team playing to not lose. - Oh wow. - Right. - So let's say you, let's say, let's take American football. So I fumble the ball. - Yeah. - And I come back to the sideline, and you're like, what the fuck dude? That is so negative contagion, so amplification, it is amplification because we know that all of the social media platforms, we know that we can keep people on the platforms longer through negativity than positivity. We know commercially, incidents, again, aligned incidents, right? So the more vitriol and hate, the longer I stay on. We also know that in general, negative rumination and emotion lasts longer than positive emotion. So, but if I get off the field and then you hit my helmet and say, you're good, you're good. When I, after I've dropped the ball and caused a turnover. - You're safe. - I'm safe. - Yeah, and it actually predicts winning. It predicts score. - Wow. - So one of the things that just happened, like I'm a huge spurs fan. - Let's go! - I love the spurs, I love pop, I love Tim Duncan, I love David Robinson, I love Wimbee, I love the spurs, I love Janobli, like let's go. So in a press conference, I could cry around and tell the story. And first of all, like watching David Robinson and Tim Duncan on the sidelines, watching the spurs right now. - Intergenerational joy. - I mean, I just cry when I say it, literally. And so, during a press conference, they ask Wimbee, is it really scary for you this threat of seeing those guys on the sideline? Like, just legends, right? These legends. And he said, no, it just feels safe, I feel held. Like if I fall, there'll be someone there. Look at Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan goes to rehab with Papa Vitch every day. - Wow. - I mean, this is like, this is not soft bullshit. This is what it means to win. Positive, emotional contagion. Love, care. That's winning, you know, and people don't get it 'cause they're so afraid, you know, that it's not masculine and it's not tough, but love is what wins. - Leading with it, yeah. - Leading with love. - Yeah, we were saying this the other day, we were saying kids get taught this almost instinctually and automatically from their parents to lead with love, with just using two words that lynch everything in. Thank you, and please. So before you have to say the thing that you're thankful for, you have to say thank you for, and before you have to ask for anything and be vulnerable and open yourself up, you have to say may I please have, da, da, da, da, da. And then we as people as we grow older, we find ways not to use those words and lead with love first. Right? - I understand. - So you'd be like, yeah, yeah. For that thing, yeah, you know what I mean. But you're like, no, you could have said, thank you for that thing. - Or may I please have this thing? - Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, this, yeah. So you're avoiding leading with love. - And you're voting vulnerability? - Yeah, because you know that once you he said this the other day, you was like, once you've said, may I please, - Or you open yourself and then you've put the request last. So you were like, me, my need, and the request. May I please have whatever it is. And that's what not what we want. And I feel like adults can just go back by just using those two words again. Please, and thank you. - I think they're functions of love. And they're functions of love, I think hard. They're functions of love, they're functions of vulnerability. I haven't thought about it enough, but I guess what I'd be curious is, do they require a level of safety? - They definitely do. - Definitely. - I think, yeah. - No, a thousand percent, they definitely do. Because each one requires you to, in some way shape or form, humble yourself, right? - So there is a humility. - Yeah, because thank you for opens you up to debt. - It is. - It immediately opens you up to debt. You're the one of us like that. We don't like that over here. (laughing) We don't like debt. I don't wanna owe you that. - But it's true. (laughing) - It's true. - It's gonna be a pickle game. - You're different, 'cause you're wearing short shorts. - But it's different. Yeah, you see, there's no debt. Now it's paid up. - That's what we're talking about. - You see what I'm saying? - Payed in full, they don't. - People take that for granted. One of the reasons thank you can be so hard is because it opens you up to debt. Thank you for looking after me when I was sick. Thank you for coming to my birthday point. Thank you for loaning me that money. Thank you for calling me. Thank you for, because we live in a world where somewhere along the line we've been taught whether it's internally, externally, whatever, that debts have to be repaid. A lannister always pays his debts. And so now-- - It hits against hyper individualization. - There you go. So now, if I say thank you-- - For sure. - Oh, damn. Okay, you've got it now to debt. Now-- - Call me now. - Yeah, and maybe your parents taught you that for instance. So you go like, "Hey, thank you for fetching me "from school mom and then your mom goes, "Yeah, and now when I ask you to do a clean-your-room later, "you better do it." Oh, damn. - So, you know what this, there's a meme right now for Mother's Day that I frickin' hate. - Yeah. - It's thinking about not saying thank you to your mom. This is how long an epidural needle is. - You see, it's debt. Yeah, it's debt. That's what I mean. - But love is not duty. - Yeah, but this is what I mean is like-- - Love is not duty. - Love is not duty. - Yes, but it is debt. This is what I mean. So all these things, same thing-- - Open your eyes. - Please, I mean, you are completely at the mercy. - Yeah, open, yeah. - You are completely at somebody's mercy. It's easier for me to say, "Yo, Eugene, are you gonna "finish that?" - Yes. - Now I'm almost doing your favor. You gonna finish that? - No, I, man. Let me handle that for you. I didn't, you didn't do anything for me. Are you gonna finish that? You're not gonna finish it, so I will finish it. Whereas if I go, Eugene, can I have the rest, please may I have the rest of your drink? - Yeah. - Now you can open yourself up. I'm dead, right? - You're giving me enough time to even decide what I wanna say to you. - Oh my God, I'm dead. - It's a signal, it's too in a boy we hate this. We love death by rugged individualism in this country, but it is a signal to please and thank you of something we're not good at, which is interdependence. - Yes, completely. - Yeah, interdependence, I need you and you need me. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And I'm gonna use a language. Because say something, thanks for taking care of me when I was sick last week, say that to me. - Thanks for taking care of me when I was sick last week. - It's nothing, yeah. - It's nothing. - Yeah. - Like as opposed to your welcome, and I'm so glad you're better. - Hmm, damn. - Yeah, it's, or. - Yeah. - When my kids were growing up, we really taught them that when someone said I'm sorry to never say it's okay. - Sameal. - So, we always taught them to say thank you. I appreciate the apology. Like I just say thank you that I appreciate that. So like let's say. - Yeah, but why? I'd love to know the why. - Because it's not okay. It was not okay. So. - It was enough hints. - It was, it was not okay actually. And so it's not my job to make you feel better, and I appreciate you making repair. So, so let's say, you say to me, Brennan, I'm sorry that text came off as shitty. So if you say that to me. - Brennan, I'm sorry that text came off as shitty. - Thank you. I appreciate it. So the first time I had apologized to one of my kids for kind of losing my cool, I went and I said, you know, I'm really, I think he was 10. I said, I'm really sorry about how I showed up. I think I got scared and I wasn't my best self and I apologize. - Some looked at me and he goes, thank you. I was like, God damn, you're grounded, dude. (laughing) - I'm sorry, I'm sorry. - Yeah, I, I, I, I, I repair DG. That was set by my parents. - That's so funny. - Who would have killed me in that moment? - That is so funny. - When he said, thank you, I appreciate it. I was like, eating the absolve, he wasn't like, it's okay, mommy. - No. - You're doing your best and I know what you're going to know. - No, no, no, no, no. - I was like, thank you, I appreciate it. I literally had to like close this door and be like, (laughing) I was like, you did it. (laughing) But I really, it's because like, you know, you see by the, I have a daughter and a son and you know, Ellen might weigh lay Charlie, you know, and then it's like, how do you think it feels for your brother? - Right. - It probably hurts. I'm like, right, so what, what do we need to do next? And this is like such a pain in the ass 'cause like I'm cooking and taking a work call I have to pause everything and it's on, you know, I was raised and like, tell your brother, you're sorry. I'll kick your ass so you can play on it for six weeks, you know. So then I just sit down and say, how do you think that feels, this and this, you know, and so then, okay, Charlie, I'm sorry. Thank you. prepare. See, that's an area that you painted, though, is one that I often mourn when I think about the cost of hyper individualism and extreme capitalism, the way we experienced it now. It's made us trade without realizing our independence, but then also our level of connectedness. Dependent, yeah. Literally what you're saying there. I'm cooking, I'm on a call, and I'm looking after the kids. And then I can't help but extrapolate that to everything in society. I go, how many people are cooking, taking a call, looking after the kids, and then we expect them to be more patient and traffic. Do you know what I'm saying? This is how my bucket gets full, actually. That's what I'm saying. That's exactly what I'm coming through. This is my rage bucket. There you go, because you're cooking, you're taking a call, you're looking after the kids, and then on top of that, you've got your work, you're cooking, you're taking after the kids, and you got this, you're cooking, you get them saying, and you get the patriarchy and fascism. There you go. Whereas, whereas when we look not to like some magical concept, to a thing that many peoples were doing all over the world, I'm constantly shocked at how few adults you need to look after groups of children. We take that for granted. Even now, people have a babysitter for their child, a babysitter for a child. That's true. You know that you go to places where one adult can look after like a squad of like 15 to 20 kids and it's fine. That's how I was raised. It is fine. But we don't, we've forgotten what that load does. If you live in a community, if you, if you, if we didn't, and I understand why these things exist, but if we didn't live in a community where, you know, like the emotional boundaries between our places, also like enforced our physical ones, you realize like one person could cook and go like, I'm going to cook. And now all the kids are in one place. And then the person is looking after all the kids and then other people are helping with the cooking and then other community. Yeah, but I, but people sometimes treat it like you're pitching like a weird commune type. But I'm like, but we used to like do this. We had the ability to do this. And life is a constant balance between how much do I have to myself, time, privacy, et cetera. And how much do I get to bear with others? Because it's necessary. Yeah. And if we get that balance wrong, and I think we're getting it wrong, especially in the West, what it then means is your bucket is going to fill up so much faster. And we're just going to have less time to be because everyone is doing the work that each person needs to do when one person could have been doing a bunch of work for a bunch of people, giving them time off, giving them, you know where I realized it's fun enough with one of the craziest realizations for me. I love speaking to people who've been married for long and people who've been divorced and people. One of the most fascinating conversations I had was was with the man who got divorced. Him and his wife were married for like 25 years. They got divorced. And he even said he was like, I'm the reason I asked him was because we're in the same vehicle being transported to a hotel. And he was on a FaceTime with his ex wife. And they were laughing and chatting and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Bye, bye, bye, bye. And then we started talking, you know, just conversation. One thing led to another and he was like, oh, no, that's my ex wife. I was like, damn, you guys seem pretty cool. He said, yeah, I'm really lucky. We had a great divorce, you know, as great as a divorce can be. He said, but now we always joke about how we're living our best lives, me and her. And I was like, what do you mean? And he said, because we didn't realize the whole time when we were married, that we didn't have to do all the work together. We could give each other a break and one of us could work and one of us could rest. And he's like, now we do that. So now when I'm working with the kids, she's completely free when she's working with me. I'm completely free. And we joke and go, why didn't we do this? Do marriage like this. Because one of the things that drained them was the fact that they were constantly doing it. They were up at night. Then they were at two on things and they were at then they were at then they. So both people are getting tired, doing a job that one person can do. And then when they now split the labor, they're living their best lives. That's true. And my brain genuinely finds these connections through all things in society, genuinely like all things, all things in society. We don't understand how much we can be helping each other with just things, but we haven't been sold that as a as a feasible way to live. And then we wonder why we experience the effects that we do. I mean, I think that's true. I mean, Stephen, I'll be together for 40 years. My husband. Yeah. So what was this whole fleeting thing about then? Well, we were going somewhere, you and I, now you bring up Steve. You really have to be careful about how. Wait, I want to know what was floating. No, because we were going to play pickleball together. No, he's joking. This is this is the troll. Welcome to my life. My name is Brown. Welcome to my life. I mean, if I had to flirt with you to get you on the pickleball court, I'm not about that. Oh, man. Yeah. Goodbye. Don't press anything. We've got more. What now after this? You know, actually, there's something I was wondering the other day. You work with a lot of company leaders, right? Like CEOs and everything. I was wondering if you have any intimate conversations with them about how they or rather what role they should be playing in a country that's falling apart at the seams. I have, yes. Yeah. I mean, I do. Let me go back to Steve, because I want to tell you something about what that you're the connection you made in that car ride. Yeah. I think that saved my marriage. Like what you're talking about. And I fought it tooth and nail. People always say, like, out of your, y'all been together for 40 years, you know, with the secret. And I always remember someone asking Paul Newman that about his marriage was showing, you know, and she said either one of us wanted to get a divorce at the same time. And I think, you know, when you're talking decades, that there's some truth to that. But I also think that, I mean, I hate this for you, but he's an amazing guy. Just really sweet. Just a kind, strong, but very loving person, pediatrician. But every day he just saw woman after woman after woman drowning in resentment and rage and grief with a baby on the hip and a stew on the stove. And, you know, and then every now and then, you know, a husband would come in and say, oh, here's my note about what I'm supposed to ask you. And could you write everything that we need to do on a note? So, you know, you know, and he was also raised by a single mom and a Latina single mom, you know, he had first hand, first hand. Yeah, he had very first hand knowledge. And he's, you know, and I remember when we had our first daughter, I was still in my PhD program. And I said, oh, God, you know, baby's crying. He's like, I got it. And I said, no, I need to get up with you. And he said, I don't understand. And, you know, and I remember this is like, this is so related to it. I remember going to a therapist before we even had kids. And so I think I'm going to get you to divorce. Like, this is, I just don't think this is working. Wow. And she said, I can see that. And I said, right. Like I left this like therapist certified problematic. And then she's like, he just likes you so much more than you like you. I can see how that would be frustrating. Yo, wait, I love why we're pointing at him. Is this what makes him undatable by his therapist? No, no, no, no, no, no, he's, he's saying this is what we've been talking - That wasn't an accusatory snap. That's a, that's like, you hear this? That's what he's saying. - I read that. No, no, no, no, no. I have this conversation. That's his, that's his like, "We said liking trumps everything." - Yes. You have to really like the person. Because loving them sometimes you love them more than this. But when you like someone, when you like your sweater, when you like your life, like it's huge. Like a massive. That's a, that's a, even, that's a next level one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You liked you more than you like yourself. - Yes, I fuck you, dude. You're fired. I find another therapist. Yeah, but it was true. And I think part of it was, I think coming from a single mom in a pretty racist San Antonio, and a Latina single mom who was hustling and grinding, you know, and then I'm getting my PhD. I've been, when I told the program director at the time that I was pregnant, his first line was literally, we thought you were going to be someone. - Jeez. - Yeah. And so I think for Steve, he just thought, you're, you're racing to find a spot under the buckets. You're waiting for the buckets to fall and then running under them to catch the chair. Confirmation about what you're afraid of. Like, move away from the buckets. bill, you know, to use our language. And so I think for me, it was, and it absolutely comes back to capitalism, it definitely comes back to, you know, patriarchy. It comes back to I should be able to do all this at one time really well, never miss a feeding, never miss this. And he's like, you know, you've got a grant due tomorrow. You sleep. I'll do this. Yeah. You know, and then did you have a lot of guilt in and around the idea of not doing it? Yeah. And then I would be like, oh my God, how am I going to do this? I've got this, I'm teaching the classes going long. And Ellen's got this thing at 330. And can you be there? And he said, I can't be because I'm working. Okay, I'll reschedule his, and you can't be because you're working. But then when my daughter turned 16 for Mother's Day, I got a card from her that said, thank you for showing me what it looks like to have a career that's meaningful for you and be a great mom. That's what I want. And I wish that you didn't feel as bad about it as you do sometimes. Wait, I'm going to do that part better. That the I know in other societies and other levels of life that inconsistency for one parent or the other to be there might have been looked at as a responsibility. Right. But you allow yourself to be inconsistent about it. I'm not always going to be there on Wednesday or for your doctor's appointment. So to pick you up from tennis, I won't always be there. But it doesn't mean I don't love you. I'm leading with love. I'm doing what I need to do. What I love doing. He's also doing what he needs to do and what he loves doing. But the inconsistency of the Wednesday pickup and the Saturday drop off won't be there. But it doesn't mean it's the absence of love. Oh my God. And this ties right back to what you said. Because what happened that specific day? Tell me. My mom went. No community. Yes. Yeah. And so it was. Yeah. My mom went. Yeah. Or yeah, when I had to put her in, you know, daycare, my sister was like, Oh, because I had two younger sisters, I'll pick her up on Tuesday and Thursday. My other sister was like, I've got Fridays. And then when they're, you know, it was like, so we were definitely raised in that community. That, that, and we didn't have the one to 15 ratio. We just had the oldest person to the 13 kids that were there. So that, so we had the 16 year old ticket. Yeah. But that works. Yeah. And then we'd be like, people don't get that award. That's your parent. Yeah. Best parent ever. Guys, we're still here. This is what I was trying to tell people is I go sometimes in life now, we're creating safeguards for things that were never really a problem. Yeah. They were like, right now there's a 15 year old ticking care of a seven year old. I'm like, yeah. And it works. It works surprisingly well. Great with dog. Yeah. But I'm saying like, you should not be the permanent solution. But we take for granted that as a species, we are quite interdependent. Yeah. And it works. It is not the end of the way. It's just not the end of it that you sell it as. Yeah. And it's why it's like, yes. But you see, I, and this is where I have like my conspiracy theory mine goes, you cannot show people that it works because then they will not participate in an economy. They won't buy the shit they need because if you, if you learn that your mom or dad is willing to take care of your kids on certain days, why are you now dipping into an app that finds babysitters for you? Why are you doing after care? If you know, did you know, this is going to blow your mind. Both of you, I hope you're ready for this. Did you know that someone in your life is willing to drop you off at the airport? No. This is a real thing. I know a lot of people are going to be like, that's not a thing, Trevor. You see, you see, it's probably that you said that. You see, I love that. I got her. I know what they've done. I know what they've done so well is they've made us replace ourselves as the defaults. And now we've thought of the service as the defaults. We've replaced each other as the default. Or here's what, yes, and here's what's the other thing that's happening is I feel bad because I couldn't pick you up. Yes. Yes. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to take my eight-year-old for a splurge at the cosmetic store. So she can get eight-year-old facials and eight-year-old lipsticks. It means like, it is, there is a, yeah, I mean, this, but I hate the late stage capitalism thing because it's just true. But what are we going to do? I mean, like, like, no, I look, I, what do you do? I think it, here's the thing that I try and tell people. And that's why I haven't forgotten my question to you. When I have the opportunity to talk to like CEOs or big company, yeah, yeah, yeah. I genuinely asked them this question and I go, I said, do you realize? I understand that you live quarter to quarter. I understand this. So maybe you're not the person to speak to, but you do realize that society doesn't live quarter to quarter. And over the long-term, you will have fewer quarters because at some point, society is going to turn against you. I don't know when, but I know that they will because what you are doing is unsustainable. It is unsustainable. We now live in a world where we don't even own things that we buy. You ever think about how crazy that is? You buy music now. Have you ever read the terms and conditions? I do this to myself sometimes just because I'm entertained. It'll be like new terms and conditions and I go read it. You know, now on many streaming services where you buy, not, I'm not saying you buy the streaming service, not Netflix. You buy an album or you buy a movie, buy it. You know that you're not buying the movie. You're buying the right to watch it, to watch the movie or stream it as long as that service exists. That's right. Yeah. So if they go away, the money goes as well. Yeah, but you don't know this. You think you are buying bad boys, the movie, and you have it. You do not have it. You don't even have the right to give it to your friend to watch anymore. We live in a world where now we're not even. This is like the first stage of late-stage capitalism is. It's like caraconsumption. That's what I mean. Before at least it was like, okay, capitalism is bad, but at least you are getting what you bought. You are getting what you bought. Now, they're like, no, no, no, no. You do not own your car. You do not own your music. You do not own, and they will keep finding more and more ways for it to happen. And we don't realize that the infinite. I tell leaders this all the time, I go, at some point it's going to come to you. Trump is a byproduct of this. Yes, you know, Trump, yeah, look, I think he's very good at being charismatic. He's very good at seeming real on stage and all these things, all these things, yes. But him and the timing of him had to be perfect. I believe that's true. Him and the timing of him. Yeah. People love disruptors when something needs to be disrupted. You get what I'm saying? 100%. People don't want to hear that though. That's really tough for people to hear. Yeah. So people love disruptors when something needs to be disrupted. That's hard. Zoran Mamdani. There's a version of it completely opposite where you go like, "Wow, how did his thing?" Because people then again went, "Actually, you're right. You can't afford to live in New York. No matter what your job is, it's like only the super, super, super richer. I have a good time in New York. Places are empty. People can't live. What's the point of the city anymore?" And then they go, and then Zoran comes in and people are like, "How could anyone vote for him?" And they're like, "Yeah, the only reason you don't understand it is because clearly you are living in the lap of luxury and you're so removed from reality that you don't understand the people's option." Yeah. That's why all the newspapers were like, "Zoran's going to destroy New York." It's like, "No, that's the question that the boss of your newspaper has. Not what the people have." These things cannot go on forever. You cannot extract from people forever. At some point, people go, "You know what? No. Look what's happening now. There are cities and counties and places where in America they're going, we're not going to approve the data center." This is a community. The water. The community's going, "No." I know you want to build a data center here? No. But AI, but they're like, "Eh, our electricity prices keep going up. Nobody comes to us to tell us why or we don't see the benefits. Our water's running out. We don't see the benefits." And on top of that, it's not even like you're giving us this thing for free. You still have to subscribe and do something. Yeah. So why would we actually, no. No, thank you. No more. And I think the more people realize that, the more they are going to do something because they can do something. And then that's when business is going to. Business didn't stop putting asbestos in things because it was fun for them. Business didn't stop, you know, or start putting catalytic converters into cars because it was fun for them. Business will always work within the parameters it is given. It's a shock. It grows as big as it's tank. It's as simple as that. And that's why I find myself wondering, I'm like, is it because, but you literally work with CEO, you help them, the human side of the company. I would love to know what some of the conversations you are that you have with these leaders in this climate where you go, "Hey, you realize you're contributing on one end or the other. Either the threads you pull are so tight that people then make more extreme decisions." Or the example you're setting is so, you know, callous that people then feel like they should be kept. Does it ever come in on that level? Yeah, I mean, I think it comes in on a daily basis. I think, first of all, I just want to say the attention in the stories and the examples that you're given on something we never talk about, which is the importance of conditions for things to happen. Yeah. There's very, there are very few people talking about what conditions needed to be present for a second Trump presidency. What conditions from umdani? What, what are the conditions? And it's interesting because we, it's just a separate conversation, but I just wanted to say that it's very rare for me to be in a conversation with someone who appreciates that there really is very little that's as important as understanding conditions. People just don't understand it. Let me tell you how much people don't understand it. I can't wait. One of the most fascinating books I ever read was a book that basically argued pretty successfully that all the beliefs you hold are not necessarily beliefs that you hold. They're merely the beliefs that were available to you in the environment that you were placed in. And it shows you how in America, for instance, you just look at mountain ranges that exist around across the country and how water fell on either side of a mountain range. And that tells you whether or not somebody's conservative or liberal. 100%. But I don't think many of the people who are there would think that I am like this or I, the things I think I believe actually just primarily influenced by the condition. I was on this side of the mountain. There was less water times were harder. Things weren't as, and that is why, whereas on this side, we had a river, it rained more, it did this. There was more, there was more, there was more work, there was more, so then I have these views or these ideas. We constantly take for granted the environment. Constantly. Oh my god. Yeah, I mean, this is, this is, okay, if this could go down, we just have to do podcast 47 on, on, on, on, on, on system theory, because this is system theory, like person and environment. I think if you understand conditions and you understand the neurobiology of the fact that we are not cognitive beings, who on occasion feel we are emotional beings, who on occasion think. I think, so if you understand conditions and person and environment and you understand emotion and the neurobiology of emotion and everything, emotion decision making, emotion, everything, I think you, we would have a very, a much more clear picture of what we're complicit in, what we're doing and what's happening. I think for the conversations, I have to be really careful about talking about this and not for NDA reasons, which those are, I got it, those are, I got them into those ass high at this point, but it's really because I didn't come into the work because I have an expert opinion on how the straight of hormones is going to affect supply chain along with tariff. I have to understand that stuff because I'm mostly just sitting in a meeting trying to understand if a group of people at a table can work well enough together and have the grounded confidence to make hard decisions together that are, you know, I think a lot of times people, people who know me well will say, it's your work kind of just a Trojan horse for making people kind or embrace her to each other. And I'll say, no, it's really about supply chain, you know, because it's not really. And so for me, I have to be careful because the assessment process for me to work with someone starts with the first question of you want me to come in and make people braver. I'm happy to talk about that from an assessment perspective. The opposite of courageous leadership is not fear, what gets in the way is armor. You know, people who are afraid every day and they still do brave things. The opposite of courage is armor. How do we self protect an armor up when we're in fear? That's what drives bad strategy, bad human, you know, bad human interaction. And so if they're like, okay, we're willing to talk about armor in our company and how we armor up. And I said, great, that I'm going to talk to the people with the least formal power and ask them why armor is required here. Oh, geez. The vulnerable ones here. Right. I'm going to ask the people that don't look like everybody else that have the least proximity to power. I'm going to start there. And so I'm really only working with CEOs who say ask anything you want of anyone you want. Oh, interesting. We need more strategic risk taking. We need people to be braver. We need more collaboration. We need more productive challenge. I can't have people on teams who are afraid to challenge their bothers. Right. Right. So I'm like, great, then this is a good fit for me. So what I always say in general and what I see working across companies globally right now is if you are trying to create a place, a culture, and it's interesting because the work that I do, you would think because that's where we start. We would measure culture, but actually the first change, things that change when we go into a company, probably not surprising, but counterintuitive to some is actually performance gets stronger. Wow. When you create a workforce of people who feel seen and respected and heard performance just Scott. And that's whether we're talking I'm talking working with a soccer team or I'm working with a manufacturing company. It doesn't matter when people feel seen heard and believed and trusted performance goes through the roof. Wow. You cannot stop people. Right. So so I'm a hard I'm not for everyone because we are going to talk about identity. We're going to talk about power. We're going to have all the conversations you're not supposed to be having right now in organizations because if you want to drive performance, we need to talk about that. Because let's say I'm leading a team and we're the AI adoption team. Right. It will never work unless you trust me enough to productively challenge what I'm saying. Yeah. If you say, "Hey, Bernam, we're really excited about what you're excited about based on the data I have. I don't think this is going to work." Like, "Okay, Trevor, go. What do you see that I don't see?" But I have to believe that I can do that. You have to believe that you're respected and trusted in your opinion matters and there won't be the moment where you're vulnerable and then you'll pay for that later with a promotion or a performance review. So what I always say about the people that I'm working with are these are normally CEOs who care more about winning than their ego. They are willing to have very hard conversations about identity, very hard conversations about power, the misuse of power. They really want to win on all fronts and they believe that winning will require human beings who are respected and deeply connected. They're not playing not to lose. They're not playing that that is the metaphor. They're playing and the hard thing is even right now if we go into a really a company that has a lot of success, it is the nature of the C-suite to see the flag planted on the top of the mountain and say protect the flag, protect the success, protect the stock price, protect the organic growth, protect the revenue. What's interesting today is that mountain is crumbling from the bottom. So it is full of the fault lines are geopolitical instability, competition, market change, AI. So you can protect that flag but as you're protecting it, that mountain is just coming down and down and down. So as a leader right now today, the only choice you have is to look for the next peak and go and you don't jump from the top of one mountain to the top of the next mountain. You jump from the top of one mountain to the side of the next mountain and you're holding on like this and all the people you lead are tethered to you. You're taking them with you. You're taking them with you and I mean, let's just be honest, like I think y'all are smart, fun but I'm going to take my chances going alone if we have to leave. If you and I have to, if the three of us for some reason have to leave out this window, I'm going to be like, I hope I see y'all again on the peak of all court. But it actually doesn't work because if you're my team and the three of us don't make it together, but then the survival is useless. So then we have to be like, oh, shit, man, we have five minutes or three of us have to go together. How do we think we do it? Damn. You know, and no idea can be stupid. You're like, we find a giant crane, we swing from it. And then I can't say, shut the lock up. I'm like, okay, what kind of crane? And this is why, this is why, I just, I was hoping I could work this in. This is why you saw the world full of people crying and cheering for Artemis too. What we saw were four people from very different lived experiences who looked different, loving each other, kind to each other, needing each other, facing complex challenges together and winning. And definite uncertainty. Defined by uncertainty. Yeah, 100%. That was a big drop of it all. That was that, that was that, yeah, and I'm lucky enough to have taken those four folks along with all the earthbound astronauts at the time through dare to lead. Wow. And what I can tell you is, when they're problem solving, if you're like, okay, we're on like, we're on the 20th floor. We're going to have to go. We're going to have to get out the window and we're going to have to go and then we have to stay together. When you're seeing the table and there's thousands of engineers that are involved in something like Artemis too, not just engineers, just, yeah, when someone says, we build a giant crane. and we hang it from a cloud. No one says, "Dude, shut up." They're like, "Tell me about the crane." What's the crane made of? The guy goes, "Legos." The woman goes, "Okay, do you blow or Lego Legos?" Like, they are, it's trust. - Yeah, willing to venture into their known. - They are willing. - Tell me more. Tell me more. - Yeah, how does, why would happen if, yeah, what is that? - 'Cause in all of a sudden they go, "Okay, so let me play back," which is one of my favorite tools. Let me teach leaders. Let me play back what you're saying. We're gonna build a giant crane. It's going to be out of Legos at the bottom, but do blow at the top. It's gonna swing from a cloud, and it's gonna grab the capsule and get it upright before the Navy can get there and get them out. Is that what you're saying? And you're like, "That's what I think we could do." Okay, don't we have something like that? Don't we have a clown hook crane over in payload that we were working on a couple of years ago? And the guys, yeah, I mean, it's not a giant crane, but it does operate with a lever like a crane. Okay, so-- - Play back. - Play the playback. 'Cause what happens a lot of times, especially in feedback, is I say to you, here's what I think is going wrong. I think you are doing incredible work. You're saying yes to too much, and you're not able to deliver everything on time because you're saying yes across all these meetings. I wanna help you set the right boundaries at the right time. And you're like, "Okay," and I said, "No, no, you didn't." Play back what you think you're hearing. And then you say, "I'm gonna ask you, I'm gonna get fired." Because that's a lot of time on this way. I will be here for long, right? Okay, so what you heard me saying is if you carry on this way, you're not gonna be here for long, right? So we need to do this again then, 'cause what I'm saying is you're doing excellent work, you're taking on too much, it's not good for you, and there's no way you can deliver against those things. Play back again. - You're doing too much, Eugene. You're carrying this podcast on your shoulders. (laughing) Triffin is too bad, less sweaters. (laughing) - Wait, did you all decide on the white T-shirt cardigan? - Can I tell you? (laughing) - My greatest joy in life. My greatest joy is when I'm wearing the same outfit as one of my friends, because they hate it. - You don't know. - I walked out of my apartment and Eugene was there, and I literally went as like, "Carnigan boys!" And his face dropped. You could see Eugene was like, (laughing) This, he just, I get so happy. I'll start singing to my friends sometimes. Like, if I see them and we walk out of wearing the same thing, I'll be like, "Fast, friend, the best fans." And they're just like, "I hate this with a past." - You have no idea how this was messed up the algorithm, because since we started shooting the season, I was thinking, I was monitoring the outfits, I was like, "Okay, T-shirt jacket, jacket shirt, "T-shirt jacket." - That algorithm. - Yeah, yeah, I knew. But today, I started with my algorithm. - Yes, there's an algorithm here for artists, and I was like, "Okay, colors, colors, what are we going now?" A bit of topia, brown, okay, now we're going earth colors, and I was like, "Okay, so a split." I kind of blew in a wide, lot of vibrancy and color, and sweater is totally off of my algorithm. Then I was like, "There's no way." - This is that your normal fit? - No, no way close. Then I was like, "I calculated properly." I was like, "I know, I know." This is not what happened. He's not going to be wearing anything that has a hint of blue and brightness on it, and why would he wear a jersey or a sweater after all of this time, because he hasn't done it. We've been, never. - Never. - You know why you ended up here, Eugene? Is because you were trying not to dress like me out of fear. And I got here because I was trying to dress out of love. - You weren't walking towards your fit. You were walking away from his fit. - Yeah, this is what happened. - And that's how we ended up here, my friend. - You did the plane back in real time. - I hate you. (laughing) - You just invited me back. But I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to confess something. I did when we sat down. I did try to see if you had a beaded bracelet on, 'cause I thought maybe y'all planned something. - Oh, no. - 'Cause he does, and I thought maybe that was cute, that you're like, - Oh, I wish I had. - But I would never do it on purpose, but I'm just like, - But I thought of this kid, I thought it was like, "Cardi can crew magic." - Yeah, we do it deep, we do it deep. - I'd be of a jingle. - I love it, actually. - Hi, this has been, it's been amazing. This has been, Eugene's not wrong, you got to come back. We just, this is part one. - Oh my God, this is just part one. Pinky promise, this is part one. - Pinky promise. - This is part one. ♪ Walk on, walk on ♪ ♪ Let hope be a heart ♪ ♪ And you'll never walk alone ♪ ♪ You'll never walk alone ♪ - Yeah, woo-hoo! - Woo-hoo! - That's a proof of who's that all of us. - I need to take a proof of who's there that's your endfield. (laughing) - Just to test my membership. (groaning) - Oh my God, this is so much fun. - Thank you, Brittany. - For real. - Shout out to Steve. (laughing) - No, thanks! (laughing) - Shit! (laughing) - Water! (laughing) - What now with Trevenoa is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevenoa Sanasiamin and Jess Hackel. Rebekah Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Parduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of what now. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)