Breaking the hiring doom loop with Greenhouse CPO Sharawn Tipton

"Welcome to the full suck HR podcast. IMS-Predatiel Johansson-Luk." "And with me today I have a special guest." "And the full disclosure before we start." "I've asked an AI to prepare the introduction of the guest." "And we will see how the AI is fairing in presenting this guest." "And with me today I have Sharon Tipton from Greenhouse." "And I hope I pronounced your name right." "But I've been listening to YouTube videos and trying to practice all my wife as well before going into this." "I hope I got it right." "Here's what ASS says about you. That you're the Chief People Officer at Greenhouse. You've 20 years in Pete Politi ship." "And before this, Chief People and Culture Officer at Lyrapp, Chief Diversity Officer at Micron, global Total Rewards at Flex, Oclinative Board President of Fair Pay Workplace, and someone who describes herself as the People's HR Executive. It also claims your core belief is that people unlock everything." "So Sharon, welcome. What did the machine get right and did get something wrong about you as well?" "Or what's the verdict?" "Wow, it actually did pretty good, Johansson. The only thing I would say is I was the Board Chair of Fair Pay. Fair Pay, if I can get that out. Workplace, I no longer am, but that was an incredible experience and an amazing organization. And I would say the one thing it missed about me is that I'm a pink. I'm a proud auntie, no kids. So that's it." "That's great, but we're going to talk about that later as well. How AI is getting things wrong and right in this day and age. But before we do that, some numbers, just because you released a report from Greenhouse, we talk about this as well, especially in the limelight of applicants. Having maybe a hard time, we'll get to that later as well. But you stayed in this report that 93% of your applicants, they never reach an interview and 0.4% of coal applications ended in higher. And that applications in general, they're up 129%. Since 2023 and open roles, they've stayed more or less flat. And you also say, and I totally agree with this as well, candidates are using AI to apply, and also companies on their end are using AI to filter resumes. And somewhere in this middle, hiring has stopped working for both the candidates, but also for us in HR, for the organizations that are hiring as well. And your CEO calls it, and I really like this as well. The Doom Europe. Yes, so my first question is, what do we do about this? That is a fantastic question. So it is the Doom loop. And the job market always has ebbs and flows, like there's times when it's an employer market, other times it's an employee market. But this is the first time that I can recall that both sides are truly unhappy, right? And it's all of the statistics you named. The bottom line, it is not working. And so one of the things I need to think we need to do is one, acknowledge that it's not working on either side. And we need to think about doing things differently. And that's where greenhouse can really be a strategic partner to companies to help break this cycle. And what we call it doing AI the right way, right? And so when you think about that, it's really about less noise and more signal, right? So there's a lot of noise in the market. But how do we get the signal of who is going to be that star employee or candidate? And it's not something that we're seeing. You can tell from just a resume alone, those days are over. It's a much agree with that as well. And it's so much noise, as you say as well. And people are, when everyone is using AI to generate the resumes, of course, it will be on the paper at least, the perfect mash, because it's quite easy to create that perfect mash towards. Whatever your bad you're applying for, but how do we do this? You say greenhouse can support that. Do you have a tangible example like how do we do it? Because it's a real pain, to be honest. And I've just gone through an hiring process where we hired as well. And it takes a toll to hire these days. What's really interesting is the resume is actually one of the weakest signals out here today. Often credentials don't tell you what someone is capable of. Or you could have on a resume someone like me, my name is Sharon. And what we've seen, and this is a known fact, is when you put two identical resumes together, studies show there is a 50 percentage point disparity in callbacks for folks with African-American names, such as mine, Sharon. And so there's a real opportunity when you think about fear, structure, hiring, and removing bias. And so one of the things we have built at greenhouse is voice AI. And what that does is it allows you to interview more candidates, utilizing AI in a very natural way. So it's not, if you think about AI, a lot of people think about that robotic voice. I have tested this, our products out. It is not to that at all. And so what you're able to do is really ensure that every candidate is going to have an opportunity to have the same questions asked to them. They're going to be scored against that same criteria. And I think what's really important that what makes this work is we are transparent with our candidates. So they know AI is part of the process. And more importantly, they know what it's measuring. And so again, it's not this robotic two-way conversation. It is truly utilizing the capability to connect in a different way beyond the resume. And we do have proof that it's work. It actually works. So we had one T.A. leader that had over 200 candidates that they had never reviewed yet. And all five of their finalists came from the group that utilized the voice AI. And one of those candidates was actually previously overlooked. So that is a great example. Another thing I will tell you is with Zapier, they did a 75-day pilot where they moved the initial interview ahead of the resume, right? And recruiter screened 10 times more candidates. They reduced screening time by 66%. That's 228 hours say. And 97% of the candidates rated the experience as excellent. So again, it's not that old robotic experience that everyone thinks about. So those are just a few of the proof points. But again, this is a whole new way. And for someone who's more seasoned like me and used to a resume, it may take you a little while to get your head around, but it truly is using technology in a way that works for everyone. And I really love that as well. And I can also test to when I've tried similar tools for you to talk and you give more data back to the recruiter. What happens is, as you pointed out as well, that people who are overlooked or people who for whatever reason are not that good at writing CVs, all of a sudden they get a chance as well to present themselves and also just make sure that they present themselves in the best possible way. So it's also an equalizer to some sort where you equalize the opportunity for people whom. Once again, I know that you can utilize AI to write and all of that right now, but still that requires a toll and an effort and meet at a good CV to begin with. This is an opportunity for people who might not be academically schooled, for example, to present themselves in a good feasible way and let them shine. It's interesting times when you utilize AI in this shape and form. But you mentioned in the end here as well, but candidates like this. Do you have any other, or do you see that candidates think that this is a good thing? Because I would assume that if you're listening to this and you're a recruiter, you would wonder what happens to candidate satisfaction. Because that's also speaking of resumes, but also candidate satisfaction is quite low, at least in my experience. Yes, so we have found that our candidates are having a positive experience. 90% of those that, so we looked at 200 candidates and 90% of them rated the experience as X. And so that is a very strong signal for us that the tool is working. And again, I've taken a peek behind the curtain and I stand on it as well. And I'm not one that likes to talk to necessarily customer service automated, you're pushing zero. This is not that. This feels like a human interaction and we were very intentional in this. And the other thing that I'm so proud of about greenhouse, we have a culture of inclusion. And we actually had our employee resource groups, we call them our arborist. They actually participated in testing our voice AI to make sure there wasn't a bias when it comes to different accents or phrases and actually utilizing the tool. And so we are very thoughtful and intentional about what the user experience is going to be. And that's great. And you can argue around, is an AI more or less biased than a human? And I'm pretty sure that you met supervised humans as well as I have. But we assume that all humans, they treat everyone super unbiased and equal. But in reality, it's not. So if you go into a project like this or you build a product like this, but you have the mindset, -att man med "Hey, let's make this the best possible." Det kan vara i term så att det inte ska vara bäst, -målet att du får en ekolopportunitet. Jag tror att det är ett bra sätt att gå igenom. "Let people come to their rights." Det är intressant, det är intressant, det är fantastiskt. "But what if I'm a candidate and I feel now." "Oh no, I don't want to talk to this AI, it feels horrible." "I don't like the robotic voice." "Even if it's not robotic, I know that you say that." "But like assuming that it's robotic, and can I opt out?" "And what happens to me?" "Am I penalized for opting out, or what happens to me?" -No, you are no way penalized, -and I think that is where again the transparency is so important. Candidates always have to know that AI is being used, -and again, what it's measuring. -And there, of course, is the opportunity to opt out. I recently was interviewing a candidate for Greenhouse, -and they opted out of AI transcription, and that's fine. That's totally acceptable, and that's what the transparency is there for. We understand that people have different styles when it comes to interviewing, and different concerns, and so we certainly want to honor that. But we also want to utilize technology for good where we can, and that's really what we stand behind is this is an opportunity for candidates to have a chance to be heard that may not have been heard in the past, simply just by looking at their resume. I think a great case about this is when you look at Brazil candidates, for example, they're often overlooked because of the schools they go to, their employers, their resume formats look familiar in the US, and the interviewer may not intend to have bias, but that's an example where bias can creep in. And so this is really a way to make sure we are casting our net wide enough in looking for the best, very best talent. But, of course, we are transparent, and, of course, folks can opt out. -Yeah, and it's an important emphasize, of course, but I think that's a good practice as well, because once again, even if you, for whatever reason, choose to, hey, I don't want to do this. I think it's good that you have the opportunity to do so, at least. So, absolutely. But any other sort of takes from this, any learnings that you learned along the way, or hypotheses that you had on, this is the way it's going to work, and then actually, you know what? It didn't end up in that shape or form at all, or any learnings that you can share in implementing this, or thinking about this as well from your end. -Rings and what's any type of technology you roll out, and I'll go back again to our arbor, and I will say we all have blind spots, even those building technology and those testing technology, and that's why we at Greenhouse want to make sure that we're getting diverse perspectives. And as we test the tool, we find opportunities to make adjustment, and to make sure that we're picking up all of the signals, and so that that work continues and is ongoing, because we believe in continuous improvement anytime you're doing any type of new release with your product, you want to make sure that there's no gaps. And so I think that's one thing that we will continue to do and learn. I think the other thing that we know at Greenhouse is that AI tools can't exist in a black box, right? Everything should be questioned. Even when we're interviewing with AI, every decision still needs an owner, right? And I think that's something collectively, all companies are learning as they experiment with AI. It's like you've got to have governance, you have to have a human somewhere in the loop, and if you can't explain, if AI can explain itself, then it doesn't belong in the hiring process. Oh, so if I get, and I totally understand, this is going to be a fantastic podcast, because I will just agree with everything that you say, but I truly do, and that's what I want to point out here as well. Because it's, yeah, it's of course important to have the human in the loop, but then you need to provide that human with good data points. And I think that's once again, back to the doom loop. If everything that we do is just a doom loop where AI is reviewing bad inputs, then who will get hired in the end, and will that be a good hire or not? So of course, we need to provide humans with good data. It reminds me, my grandmother used to say when I was growing up, anyone can have a recipe, but not everyone can cook. And that's what AI reminds me of, right? It's like you've got the tool, you've got all the ingredients now, but can you cook, right? Is the dish good? And so you still need the human in the loop for that discernment. Speaking about human in the loop and talking about that, and you're the CPO greenhouse, could you elaborate a bit on how you're using AI in your day-to-day job? I would love to. We are not only focused at greenhouse on our product in AI, we are in the middle of an AI transformation, and it's some of the work that really gets me excited in the morning. So in order for that to be successful, I as a leader have to utilize AI, and my team utilizes AI every single day. And so there's so many ways it has been an uplift for us as a function, particularly when you look at our people operations, our talent and acquisition team, even total rewards, compensation and benefits. There's so much data that we touch, and so having AI at our fingertips to look at those data sets in different ways. But what I will call out, Johannes, is it's really important for myself and my team to understand that at the end of the day, we are decision makers. And so AI is the tool that supports our work and gives us different insights and recommendations. Ultimately, we are accountable, but it's been wonderful to be able to create dashboards on the fly, help employees with questions that are like tier 1 questions that we know. AI can help us push those answers out quickly. And so there's just so many use cases. Our entire executive team, we all utilize AI, we all went through an AI training together. And so it's been wonderful to learn different prompts from each other and help just to make the work that we do. It helps it to one more efficiency, and then to it just gives you different insights that may or may not be applicable to your business. It's been wonderful. And also hopefully it gives you the ability to work closely to people. I think that's under. You talk about if you are you organizations with today, we talk about efficiency, we talk about, oh, let's see if we can be slightly more productive. But in the end, if you give your HRB piece, for example, I don't know if you have HRB piece, but if you have a HRB piece that can put some of the admin on AI, and then they can spend more time with managers making the managers better, and then hopefully the managers can then their turn spend more time with their people if we can make work better. Why utilizing AI, I think that's wonderful as well. But is there any area? You said, is there any area where you've been disappointed? Like why isn't AI solving this? It should be able to, but it's not doing. I don't think that it's something that I wanted it to do, that it's not doing, but I will tell you the question that I think we all need to think about is what AI is producing for, is it a value? Because there's now so much data and information you can access. And we've all heard about AI Slop, and so it's like, is this quality, is this worth presenting and pushing out? Is this information accurate? And so I think it's less about what is it doing that it can't do, but is what I'm asking it to do useful, right? Is it something of value, does it make sense? Do I trust this information? And so I'd like to see more of that. And again, that's where the human comes in, and I also think for each of us, we should step back and ask ourselves, okay, I've utilized AI, but where do I need to put my finger prints on this? And am I ensuring that it isn't AI Slop, that I'm just passing on to someone else? Totally, we as well. And also, you should think about that in general, as you've just not just talked about, but especially it's important now, since it's so easy to generate it, of course. But if you're an HR leader now, and to summarize this as well, if you're an HR leader and you're listening to this, what should you stop doing on Monday if you have one core message to HR people out there? In regards to AI, there's probably plenty they can do, but in regard to it. So if it's one thing, I would stop doing, if I was an HR professional or leader, it would be assuming I have to do things the way I've always done them. And so I would question your processes, your way of working, and be very thoughtful about where can I utilize AI? That's what we should stop doing. We should stop perverting to our old habits. And it could be as simple as when you wake up on Monday morning, and you go to open your email, could that be summarized for you when you get up? And could you have a list of actions that you immediately need to take? And so sometimes it's the small steps forward that give us the biggest uplift. And so we are at a moment in time, and I think everything should be looked at through that lens of how can I use technology to make me more efficient and to focus on the things that only I can do, that I am uniquely positioned to do. The other thing I would say to my HR colleagues out there, I know you didn't ask for too much to give you one more. That's two things, but that's fine. had a great conversation about this the other day for anyone that is resisting this change or is slow to adapt, right? I would say embrace this moment and I say that because every organization everywhere we are all going through this change together and so right now you have some grace on your side, right? You're not expected to be AI fluent. That will look very different a year from it and so it's a great time to go through this with everyone, right? And have your growing pain and we all get to experience together whereas if it's maybe and I don't have a crystal ball, but at some point this is going to be the expectation and so you don't want to miss this moment. So I say hop on the ride with me and let's all dig in and learn what all we are capable of. This technology at our fingertips. That is more of a less last words so we'll end there. Sharon, thank you so much for being on full security and how can people stay in touch with you if they want to reach out to or follow your work? They can reach me on LinkedIn, Sharon Tiffin. That is the best way to get a hold of me and I always respond back. I love connecting with folks. So yes, please let's keep in touch and Johannes, thank you so much for having me today. This was awesome. Thank you. Thank you. [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]