Speaker 1Hi there. Welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud podcast, the show where we get real about mental health and addiction. I'm so glad you're here. If you or someone you love is struggling with drugs or alcohol, please reach out for help. Send me a message on all social media platforms at recoveringoutloudpod or by email at recoveringoutloudpod at gmail.com. You are no longer alone. Because I don't know about you, but I was a lunatic.
Speaker 2Present. I always like tell people I was like a dumpster fire on a train, like just barreling through everything. So yeah, no, but. It was, it was nice to have that conversation because her, her story is very much connected to mine, right? When I got clean and sober, she decided to go out. So yeah. So that had a huge effect on.
Speaker 1To go out like and relapse.
Speaker 2Well, she, she was, yeah, she was about 17, I want to say. And she, she started hitting the drugs when I decided to get off of them. And so, you know, the life that I lived now became her life. So that was really hard. I had to learn how to lovingly detach. And a lot of things happened very quickly. Um, like she got into a really bad car accident and I, I was able to show up for her, which is something I wouldn't have been able to do before. And then a friend of hers actually, um, went into a drug, drug induced seizure when I was three months clean and sober in my basement. Yeah. So I got woken up to that and I sent my daughter to rehab. She lasted four days and was like, I want nothing to do with this. So she actually, we were in the car the other day and she's like, mom, I have to show you something. And I was like, what? And she pulls up her, I am sober app and it's two years free of cocaine. Yeah. And she was like, oh, I totally forgot. I missed it. And I was like, I'm so fucking sorry. I'm so fucking proud of you because I only have like four months ahead of her. Wow. Yeah. So it was like a really beautiful moment where like, you know, I got to see what I was like in a very brief period of time in my daughter and like the damage that that caused my family. So it was like a big wake up call to, I'm not in control of anybody's healing. I did the damage. It's my responsibility to take that back and to, to show them that I'm not going to live that way anymore.
Speaker 1And I mean, you'd be remiss if you didn't add that your recovery definitely played a part in that, right? Like you showing up every day. I just, I'm picturing a world where I'm sure this exists out there where, you know, you have mom, dad in active addiction, children in active addiction. It's like just you're fueling each other, enabling all over the place. Right. So what was that like watching her and like, how'd you get through that?
Speaker 2It was really traumatizing to be honest. I think at first I was very selfish in the fact like, how dare you, you know, here I am trying to better my life and now I have to watch you do this. And at first, like I had that very selfish, self-centered moment where I was like, why are you doing this to me? And then very quickly I got humbled and I was shown like, she's not doing it to you. She's suffering from her own pain. Like for me, when I was in active addiction, what I realized was I didn't want to, I couldn't see anything past my pain. I couldn't, you know, I loved my kids. I wanted to be there for them. There were all these things I wanted to be, but I couldn't because I was consumed by my pain. And I was able to kind of switch my perspective on that and understand that there is nothing I could do to save her. I have to allow her the space to have her experience, but I'm also in a position when she's ready, she knows where to go and I can be there to support her. And that's exactly what happened. So it was really hard to watch, but I'm, oh, I got goosebumps, but I'm also really grateful that, um, I was able to be there when she was ready. Yeah. And that's the key is like, um, they
Speaker 1didn't cause it. Um, I didn't, I can't control it. I didn't cause it and I can't cure it. Right. So it's like, I get parents all, I talk to parents all the time in addiction because of my job and they're like, what do I do? I don't know what to do. Like there's really, there's nothing you can't can do, right? There's no playbook. There's no answer. There's no template to this. Um, that's another reason why I really wanted to get started. This podcast is because I, you know, I've had parents reach out to me and be like, thanks. Like, you know, that, that helps me, you know? And it's you, you said it exactly. It's like, I can be there when they're ready, you know? And so let me ask you this. What does, you've probably learned a lot from that experience, right? But what does enabling versus support look like? Oh, that's such a fine line, right? Because like
Speaker 2when somebody, I see this even as a sponsor, like as a sponsor, as somebody in recovery. Um, so to, to broaden this a little bit, when I first came in and I, um, got to a point where I was able to share my experience with my family, I was able to share my experience with my family. I was able to share my experience with others. Um, I was like, I'm going to save the world. That, that was my thought process. Um, what I came to realize quickly after that is I'm not able to save anybody. The only thing I have is my story. Um, and that I'm able to share, you know, I'm able to give that support. So I think the enabling comes in when we're constantly trying to swoop in and save. Like if, if I, what I'm doing is because I don't want you to hurt, then I'm enabling you, right? Like if everything that I'm doing is fueled by my need to feel okay with what you're doing, then yeah, I'm enabling you. But I think what happened with me was I wanted to do that at first. And then I had to real, and I realized very quickly from my own recovery, even though it was very little at the time, there was absolutely nothing I was going to say or do that was going to make anything any better. She had to have that experience on her own. Um, what I will say is there were many messages where that, that were just, I'm thinking of you, I love you. And most of them are not responded to. And that was okay because I understood she needed to take that time on her own. Um, but when she was ready, I was there and, um, you know, keeping your feelings and emotions out of it is huge. And that's a really hard thing to do, especially coming from someone super emotional like myself, you know, you want to save, but the reality is like, sometimes people have to fall on their own.
Speaker 1Yeah. That's what I had to do. Yeah. Same. Um, my parents, you know, uh, helped me so much. They enabled me a lot, but then, yeah, they, they learned from their mistakes and doing that and giving me money, putting a lot of people don't realize too, that enabling takes all sorts of forms. Like this is going to sound very harsh, but I was talking to a guy, a dad on the phone today. And, um, I mentioned that like, even just providing shelter is enabling because when my parents let me live in the house, I was a, you know, coming and going as I pleased and using my I still remember to this day, like I would put, you know, my, my Coke in my, uh, waistband and I would try and sneak in the house. And the one night my dad caught me, I'll never forget it. It was like, that was the first time I really cried out for help when I was 23, 10 years ago. And, uh, I remember he had been long story short, he had been tipped off by my friend that I was really bad, you know, and I was using more than everyone else and I couldn't stop. And, uh, he had told my, my mom that I was coming home just after grabbing and I was drunk and whatever. I'm walking around, you know, slick pulling it, you know, no one knows. And, uh, he comes in the room, breaks down the bathroom door and finds it, flushes it down the toilet, like right in front of me. And I, I get goosebumps just thinking about that because I'll never forget. That was the first time when I actually told the truth and I yelled out and cried, like literally bawled my eyes out. And I said, I need that. I need that. Don't you understand? I need that. And my, my sister, it was the first time she ever heard like how bad it was. And so that was a pivotal moment for me. Yeah. Um, what, what do you think kept, you in active addiction for so long?
Speaker 2Um, I think it was pain. Like, honestly, I, I grew up, I went through a lot of trauma and, um, growing up, I was never really taught, uh, what healthy love was. I think that's, so I was constantly looking for like this, uh, anything to fill this void that I had within me. And, um, I didn't want to feel any of the pain. I absolutely did not. So I kind of created like this shield of like, I don't want to feel any of the pain. I absolutely did not. So I kind of created this shield of whoever I needed to be at the time. Um, and when I, the first time I tried drugs or like, or any substance, to be honest, it was like, I finally felt comfortable. It was like nothing bothered me anymore. I had no, there was no thought process on like, oh, this hurts or that hurts. It was just, yeah, this is it. I can do this, you know? Perfect. I'm good. Um, but I wish, you know, at the time somebody would have said, yeah, it feels good now, but like, it's going to take everything from you. Because it almost did. And I, I, um, but I'm also very grateful for that because, uh, if I, if I wasn't in the state I was in this time when I hit this bottom, and it's funny because this bottom, like nothing crazy happened. It wasn't like they found me on the side of the road and I woke up in the hospital with all my clothes cut off. Cause that happened. Um, you know, like it wasn't, you know, there was nothing.
Speaker 1It was a higher bottom than you're used to.
Speaker 2Yeah. It was nothing traumatic. All my kids were living at home, although they shouldn't have been because it was basically a trap house. But I was, I was dead inside, like dead inside. And I just, the, the morning I decided that that was enough, like my moment of desperation, I was contemplating taking my life in the house where my, all of my children were at home. And I didn't even put two and two together until like six months ago. And I was like, whoa, that's insane. Like, I didn't even think about like what would happen if, if, and when one of them found me, like that's how much pain I was in. And I just didn't want to feel it. Um, and then I, you know, crawled back into recovery, and here we are.
Speaker 1what was that what did that look like did you make a phone call did you reach out
Speaker 2yeah so I I use a 12-step program um and I had tried it twice before once um like many years ago I just it wasn't for me at the time um and then the last time was a few years ago uh I ended up with some charges and I was like well this is probably what everyone wants me to do so I tried it and I actually got a sponsor that time I lasted a whole 37 days and you know that like mental blank spot they talk about something happened with my kids that got into a fight at school and I was like let's go for lunch and now I'm thrown back so it's like it was like I didn't even think about it it just I went back out I wasn't doing it for me though I wasn't doing it because I wanted to get better I was doing it to appease everybody you're talking about the the
Speaker 1milk and the whiskey thing pretty much yeah so you so yeah for people that don't know there's a passage in recovery literature where the they talk about a guy relapsing yeah and he was clean and sober hadn't had the thought in a while about using or drinking and he shows up to a bar and he's having milk and all of a sudden a thought comes into his mind it's funny it's a funny story because a lot of people probably a lot of people can't relate to that exact situation but I've had many situations where it's like boop this is a good idea yeah let's do it and for me it was like so to finish the story he decides that his stomach is bothering him and a whiskey would go good with the milk and that's how he relapsed just like that he didn't tell anybody about it he didn't call anyone in my experience it was I thought I had ADHD too we were talking about this before um and I was like huh I can't focus that good at work and it wasn't like a quick it was it happened over time slowly but I kept having these thoughts of like I know a guy that and it usually started with knowing someone being on medication that it worked great for them right and I'm like everyone else you know it's gonna work for me right um and I was like I gotta fix my ADHD right and then that's how I relapsed I had you know gotten back on the Adderall the Vyvanse and I'm getting it from a doctor and then I'm buying it on the internet fake stuff whatever and I'm using it to party now and all these things but it all started with that moment where even though I can't really relate exactly to the whiskey and milk thing I'm like why would anyone fucking do that right yeah but I'm like I get it I told that's the that's addiction it's insidious right um cunning baffling powerful and patient it's just waiting for that moment and if what I found today is there's that gap between thinking about doing something and doing something that as you stay sober longer in my experience it gets greater and greater and greater where it's like I pause before I make rational irrational decisions based on emotion and so today if when that thought comes because they do still come right absolutely the time gets bigger between I call someone I'm like hey what do you what do you think about this or hey I'm having this craving or whatever sorry that was a long rant there no no it's a great story it is a
Speaker 2I didn't relate to it at first either, but I mean, I can see it now. I can see it. And so this time was a lot different, though. I it was February 10th, 2023, and I was sitting in my bathroom and I just my will to live was done. I just couldn't do it anymore. I was in so much pain. I wasn't able to show up for anybody. I wasn't able to show up for myself. I didn't know who I was anymore. I was literally the shell casing of a human. There was nothing left. And I reached out to a couple people and one in particular. I actually every once in a while thank him for this. I was mad at the time. But he said, there's a meeting at eight. Go. I said, I'm still like not good. He said, just go.
Speaker 1I'm giving you an answer.
Speaker 2You know, like, here it is. I'll meet you there. And I said, OK, fine. If you'll meet me there, I'll go. He did not. And I yeah. And to be honest, I think he saved my like I think he's part of what saved my life because my type of addict, if you give me an inch, I'm taking everything from you. I'm not taking the mile. I'm taking everything. Like, I mean, I want I will use and be like I just anything like that. I take I just want it. And I and not because I was a bad person, but because I was just I was suffering. So, you know, I didn't think about your suffering. I didn't think what it did to you. And so I had to walk back into those rooms broken and bloody and crawling and full of guilt and full of shame and just full of all the ugliness by myself. And and I did. And I remember this day like it was yesterday because I walked in, had a temper tantrum. I think I kicked a chair like it was just it was so bad. Like I dyed my hair red the night before, like total meltdown. And yeah. And but the like what I'm so grateful for in that moment is like I had to do it on my own. There was nobody holding my hand. There was nobody cosigning my bullshit. It was me. And that was it. So what are you going to do? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that was my choice. Like there was no more running at that point. I didn't want to die. And I truly believe that I would not be sitting here right now had he have. You know what I mean? I just don't think I would be. I would either be dead or alone dying inside.
Speaker 1I always say this, that if I had to list all the people, places, institutions, counselors, doctors, family members that helped me get to this point today, I'd have a book like this big because I have a lot of pivotal moments like that where I can. I can think of one specific person, you know, counselors, especially my first treatment got getting me into my first treatment, right? All these people that even though I may have relapsed or whatever, after the fact that they planted the seed, I still that seed is still there. It doesn't go into like I knew where to go after that. And all those moments lined up perfectly to get me to where I am today. And everything happened the way it was supposed to, right? It wasn't perfect by any means, but I'm still alive and I'm sober today. So it was all. It wasn't. It wasn't all for nothing.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think, too, like when I when I came in this time, I was riddled with shame, like way more than ever. I mean, I had slept through Christmas like I just like I was it had gotten so significantly worse in the last while that like. Like when I think about it, I just I never, ever, ever want to feel that again. Like I never want to feel that again. Like when they talk about. You know, spiritualities for our religions, for people who have who don't want to go to hell and spiritualities for people who've lived it like I was in my own personal hell. And I never, ever want to go back to that. Like and just when I think about the damage that I caused to my family, like repeatedly and all the promises that I made that I couldn't keep. And it's actually really funny. My daughter was taking her to an appointment a couple of months ago, and she's like, we talk openly like my kids. I'm very open with. My kids. And she said, you know, it was crazy about when you were in active addiction. And I was like, oh, no, what I'm scared. And she was like, every time something really messed up happened and she was referring to the day they found me and I woke up in the hospital, all my clothes get off. She was like, you came home and it was just another Tuesday to you. It was like nothing crazy happened. And that was how I lived my life. Like, it didn't matter how traumatic the event was or how messed up it was. It was. It was just another like I couldn't be bothered. I could not be bothered.
Speaker 1I just continued on my, you know, destruction path, like a tornado through the house. That's interesting that she remembers that your reaction to it. Yeah, that's very interesting. I think we don't realize the impact we have on people in our lives because and I hear this every single time I talk to an addict that's contemplating like whether to get help or not is, well, I'm not hurting anyone. I'm not hurting anyone, but myself, right? And that was a huge one for me that kept me out there for a long time. It's like, I'm not, you know, it's just me that's that's that's hurting, right? Nobody else. And then come into recovery, you find out, you know, your wife's been calling the morgue every night. She's been calling police stations. She's been calling funeral homes. And it's like, oh, my God, yeah, like, I'd be doing that too, right? I was gone for so long for so many days. Fentanyl, like, there's all you know, I was doing coke like, yeah, how could you not do that? Right. But you don't you're so stuck in it at the time that you can't do it. You don't realize the impact, the waves that you have on other people. Tornado, like, like we said. Yeah, I think it's it's crazy, but, you know, it's ultimately what am I trying to say? When you so how you talk about shame? Yeah, a lot, right? That's this is where I was going to go with this. How do you because that doesn't go away when you get sober at all. If anything, it amplifies, right? How do you how did you and how do you deal with that today?
Speaker 2Well, that's it's a tough one. So I think a lot of my shame is surrounded. So this is a hard question to answer, to be honest. So and there's different different parts to it. So it depends on what shame we're talking about. If we're talking about the shame attached to me being a parent, especially living in active addiction and all the mistakes that I've made throughout my life. The one like the one big thing is I have a very high expectation of what I should be as a mother. And I had to do a lot of work. I had to work on that with my sponsor. And so when we were going through our resentments and our fears, one of my big fears is being a bad mom. And we worked on that. So I in that moment, I was able to like really look at it and be like, where did you get this absolutely ridiculous expectation that nobody in this world can live up to? Like, that's insane. And I was able to like, you know, yeah, I am a human with my own experiences that I wasn't able to work through. And, you know, I wish that I didn't cause everything that I did to my children. But here's the thing. And this is. how I'm able to work through that shame is yes addiction touches everybody around you they say it's a family disease recovery is also the same you know so um all my kids live at home with me my you know we're all very close we're not without you know our own problems and our own issues but we're all very close and um you know they've watched me recover so they get to see it and it hasn't been pretty or uh without mess you know there was a time when I was a very angry individual I wasn't able to handle my emotions you know anger was like my go-to until I realized anger is the secondary emotion and it's blocking me from the pain that I want that I don't like I'm avoiding pain through it um so they watched me become a very angry person and like they watched all these things happen but they also got space to heal on their own you know I was able to give them that space and um so um um um a lot of that shame I was I'm able to work through um I also had a lot of shame attached to a lot of the abuse and traumas that I went through throughout my life um a good friend of mine and I were we're talking and um the one thing that she had said to me that kind of blew my mind a little bit and I knew it but I think when somebody says something to you sometimes it like registers a little bit more and she was like I think for a very long time you felt like you deserved everything that you went through and I think she's absolutely correct right so I would carry the shame of something somebody else had done and I would carry it as my own when really that's not mine to carry that somebody else's to carry um because I all but I think the shame is attached to the fact that because of the pain I was in I became all the things that I never wanted to be to other people you know what I mean yeah so it was like okay well I'm not going to do this and then I would do that and then I'm not going to be this and then I would be that you know what I mean so but learning that when you leave things and you don't work through work on them or work through them like this is
Speaker 1what happens yeah I saw something on social media yesterday that was like when you avoid anything it comes back tenfold right and usually when you least expect it or or uh just in a public place sometimes oh my god you're not ready and it's just like ah um yeah for me um I so I've done a lot of work too in treatment with um counselors and sponsors as well over shame the steps are a great tool for me uh they're not for everybody I realize that but it's they work for me yeah same it's the only thing that works same yeah and continues to save my life right um so there's a process in there where you're writing down all these things right and there's something that happens this is why I always say journal journaling is so important to me is because something happens when you put it on paper um I heard you know Joe Rogan used to talk about this and I was like I'm not going to do this I'm not going to do this I'm not going to do this journaling and how it um cleanses like your thoughts and and offers up more bandwidth for good thoughts to come in right you're purging small yeah yeah and it's like oh there it is it's not that powerful anymore because it's not circling around in my head and like doing laps and like gaining you know thoughts i just thought of this now but thoughts in my head i love i love metaphors so yeah thoughts in my head it's like they're they're going around a racetrack and someone's like fueling them up every stop right and they just keep getting faster and faster and worse and worse and then one day i'm smoking meth again you know it's it's not that you know extreme quick that quickly but you know all bets are off when i don't follow some sort of program of recovery so for me it's like i have a lot of shame that comes up every once in a while now on um all the money my family spent on my recovery right whether it was treatment counseling life coaching whatever in the last 10 or 15 years of my life that'll come up every once so the other day and the reason this came up the other day i was uh at my parents house and um i opened a book and a piece of paper fell out right yeah no thanks right i'm supposed to look at this now i always do that right i'm like oh great what's this gonna be right and it was like a bank draft from one of the treatment centers that oh wow and it was like you know a significant amount of money and i just and i forgot about that treatment center and you know i hadn't thought about it in a while the again i went to three and all private and i'm grateful that i went there and i was able to you know pay them off slowly and surely but still paying it off but but my point was that i looked at it and i was like immediately you piece of shit how could you do this to them like think about all the money and it's just like boom boom boom boom right and i had to like i had to get out of myself i had to like go talk to someone i had to get out i went for a walk i think at the time because my phone is like 3 000 pounds sometimes yep oh i know that yeah so just like get outside for a walk right and that and then eventually i tell people about it and um it gets better over time but so what i do with that is someone in my treatment center recently told me this i never used to like affirmations i hated them i thought they were cheesy i do them every day now every single day i wake up every morning and i'm like today's gonna be a great day i literally started saying that and it's been working like i'm gonna be a success today i'm gonna show up today whatever that looks like right and not financially not just i'm just gonna be myself right and uh she always used to say this and i love it she said i have these affirmations every morning where she says three things i forgive myself i love myself and i believe in myself and i find that sometimes when all else fails like if i can just go back to that even writing it out in my journal it's like yeah i fucked up i made a lot of mistakes right i spent a lot of money you know i spent a lot of money on treatment with my parents but i also spent a lot of money on drugs and alcohol too right today i can say that i'm not doing that
Speaker 2yeah so i think there's something really beautiful in that though like you feel a lot of shame but like if we change the narrative on that and like change it to your parents like look at how much they really did care yeah right and i think sometimes when we're stuck in in self like like that it's so hard for us to see the other side and um yeah but it's a beautiful thing like you know i and i see it all the like i didn't have family that's i had supported me through it um and i didn't go to treatment i didn't go to detox uh i ended up with pause because of it but that's fine uh you
Speaker 1ended up with what post-acute withdrawal yeah yeah yeah it was terrible i know i it took me a
Speaker 2while to get over that too yeah but uh you know like i i think that's beautiful i but i think um on the other side of that when when i get resentful that i didn't have like all these you know my family kind of you know coming chasing down my door or any of that stuff i remember that like i have this beautiful family that i've made in recovery you know what i mean so there were strange perfect strangers like there to pick me up um when i needed it but it's all change in narrative for me like perspective before i was always like why me well why not me though really yeah like why should i be immune to all the hardships of the world like what is that yeah right um i love it yeah so but i like i love that they were so supportive like that's an amazing thing to have yeah that's a it's a good
Speaker 1point and thank you for bringing that up because uh recovery does offer me that yeah from a high to sum up recovery you know i would say let go like that's a big one like let go that that could be summed up in two words and i didn't make that up sandy b i believe uh made that up it was a speaker but um let go and like yeah it's it's a beautiful thing that that we're in but if i could sum it up in another way too is all recovery does to me for for me sorry for me is it it lets me shift perspective absolutely in all situations of my life you know whether it's someone a sponsor someone in recovery uh your family members hey why don't you look at it this way right and you're like oh yeah i never thought of that so i appreciate that yeah and to call
Speaker 2myself out like i i live a pretty spiritual life these days i do but like i can't be spiritual with everybody like i there are parts of my life where i struggle with that and i think that's like important to note too because again that shame creeps in like oh i wish i didn't behave that way because now i don't have a problem with drugs or alcohol now i got a problem with my behavior right like i'm like um but the difference is like i catch those things a lot quicker now and again it's the change in perspective and like
Speaker 1i almost just lost it at a lady at the gas station over there so it's funny because um you know there was a long time where uh people were talking about elon musk creating this chip thing and bear with me for a second yeah this i'm going to relate this back where it's like a microchip where people could read each other's thoughts oh no and i was always like yeah like i hope that never happens because if someone could read what i'm thinking i got
Speaker 3fucked i'm so screwed present yeah so i was standing in line at the gas station and one of
Speaker 1my pet peeves i have a few of them but one of my pet peeves is the person that uh does the lottery tickets at the front when there's like a whole line of the gas station and then they're asking questions and this and that i'm like i gotta go don't you know and it all goes back to the the director yeah i am i want to be the director like you need to follow my script you need to listen to me if everybody just played along with my
Speaker 2parts my script the world would be a better place right oh oh and i i feel like the control part though is so hard like and especially like i've been on my own for quite some time so um like as a parent and as a human like i left home i think it was like 15 years old and um so the control piece is really hard for me like i i used to gain this false sense of security and i had to do that on my own and i was never actually safe so now when things feel out of control to me like i really had to work on like let it go and it's still one of those things where like i'm starting to Like I catch myself sometimes, I'm like, oh, why isn't this? Nope, God has a different clock than me or whatever you believe in, the universe, the trees outside, whatever. For me, I call it God because it's easy, but he doesn't run on my clock at all. And we fight about it sometimes. But, you know, yeah, control was hard for me.
Speaker 1That's a good way to put it, yeah. I get what I need today, not what I want. And then I invariably find out that it was what I wanted the whole time, if that makes sense. I get what I need today. It's not on my time, though.
Speaker 2So somebody had said to me quite some time ago, you know, I'd be like, why is this bad thing happening to me? And I would place judgments on whatever was happening in my life. So if I'm being honest, the very beginning of my recovery, well, actually pretty much my whole recovery has been a dumpster fire. Like it's been really hard, right? It's like one traumatic thing after another. But what happened? What happened was she was like, maybe instead of placing judgment on what's happening in your life, you just look at it as an experience. Because I was like, this is terrible, or this is amazing. And then it would turn out to be the opposite. So like what I'm really, really, really understanding, but also seeing now in my recovery is whatever happens and whether I think it's good or bad, I really have no idea because the worst possible thing that happens might be the best in the long run for me. I just don't know it yet. So if I look at things as an experience, rather than, oh, this is terrible, why is this happening, or this is the best thing, yay. And then turns out to be the worst thing. So just trying to like move through the experience, whatever it is.
Speaker 1That's a great point. This is like, this is bad or good in my mind right now, right? Like right this second, it's not. And we don't really know what the outcome is going to be because we can't control the outcomes.
Speaker 3Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1So I want to talk about spirituality a little bit more and faith because I think that's important and we bring it up here quite a bit. But what does faith look like to you today on a daily basis?
Speaker 2Today? Oh, it's a lot different than it was. That was a tough one for me. It was really tough because I truly believed that I did not believe in God and then I came to, or spirituality, like faith, anything. And then I came to realize that if you hate something, you believe in it. So like I absolutely did. Um, but it took a really long time for me to get to where I am. So like at first I was like, I just, I can't get on this, this God spirituality train. I can't do it. And someone was like, just be open and willing. Like it doesn't have to be, you know, Jesus or like whatever. It doesn't have to be what everyone else thinks. Like just allow yourself to be open to the idea of something greater than you. And so I did. And then I would go to meetings and I'd be struggling. And then all of a sudden everyone would be talking. About the things that I'm struggling with. Yeah. And like, it became too much to be a coincidence. And then it became numbers cause I'm a weirdo. And then, um, and then it started to really shift where, so the beginning of my recovery, I relied very heavily on human aid. I needed my sponsor to tell me which foot to put my shoe on. Like I, I just, I called her for everything. And then something happened where she was removed from my life very quickly. And I had a bottom in recovery and I started, I started to shift from human aid to the spiritual program. And, um, you know, today it really looks like, I don't know why this is happening, but I trust you, you know? So I truly believe that everything that I've gone through in my life has gotten me to where I am. And although I may not have deserved some of those things, they absolutely created the human that I am today. Um, and it gives me the opportunity to share that with other people, which I think is beautiful. Like there's purpose in that. Um, and whatever happens going forward there, there is a reason for it and I have to just trust that. So, um, I think that's where my faith lies today. And I mean, I do get up, I talk to God a lot. Normally it's like rambling. I didn't know how to pray at the beginning. I literally prayed, prayed like this. Uh, Hey man, are you, anybody there? Like I just, I didn't know how. And eventually, you know, now it becomes like more of a conversation. We're like, if I'm really struggling, like crying was really hard for me. I don't like vulnerability. I felt like it made me look weak. And now like, I'll be driving in my car with tears streaming down my face. Like, I don't know what you're doing right now, but like, I trust you, you know? So that's how it's really shifted for me. Um, I really believe that like me being here today was not me. Like, you know, I very much could have ended my life that day. And so, you know, I don't know. I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like I was, I felt like I was just being myself. I felt like I was just being myself, but I felt like I was just being myself. So that had to be something greater than myself.
Speaker 1I have goosebumps thinking about it. Cause it's so true. Like that's, that's, you know, spiritual experiences are a term that you often hear. Yes. And, um, that was a spiritual experience for sure, where it's like, I don't know what happened for me. Um, my spiritual experience, I've had many, I didn't realize it at the time. Again, you understand it. Life is lived forward and understood in reverse. Someone said once to me, um, my last bottom was at a home. Um, and I was like, I don't know. I don't know. I was at a hotel, I was getting kicked out. I had enough drugs on me, uh, going into, like I gave them to my wife before I went into rehab, but I had enough drugs to go probably another week. Right. And that's not me like giving that up. I, something, I was just, there was something in my head that said, give up your drugs and go to rehab. Like you have no other, I mean, I had a lot of choices. Don't get me wrong, but I didn't to your point. And you mentioned this earlier is like, it was harder in my mind for me to keep facing that demon over and over again. Then it was to just let someone drive me into treatment again. You know what I mean? Like, and I had that moment for a long time. It wasn't though, for a long time, it was harder to get someone to just simply drive me into treatment than it was to stay out there and use, but it was like, and again, that's, I spent many weeks fighting that until one day it was like, boom, something popped in my head. There's a small window of willingness. And then I spent the next four days detoxing in my apartment and I don't know what happened, but I gave up my drugs that day and I was done. Right.
Speaker 2Yeah. It's like, you come face to face with the shadow, finally, like face to face with it. And like, I don't, I didn't understand it at the time, but it was like, this is it. Like, what are you going to do? Yeah.
Speaker 1What does it say? We have two options to go on to the bitter end, using and drinking until we die or to end up in jails and institutions. Yeah. Or alone. Or alone. A lot of us do end up in those positions. Right.
Speaker 2I think that's why this is so important for me. Like I, why I'm so in the middle of her, like why I'm in the middle of my own recovery is because like, I see it all the time now, right? Like recovery is going to save less people than addiction is going to take. So like if, if you can continue to do this and we can continue to try and like alleviate some of the stigma, like not everyone's going to understand, you know, people hate things they don't understand. That's why it's such a harsh stigma attached to it. But if we can keep talking about it and keep sharing our experiences, then maybe other people who really think they can't do it might have that. small little inkling that they can. And I think that's so important. Yeah. Do you think that it'll
Speaker 1ever outweigh, that it'll ever turn the other way around? I hope so, but I don't know. And the reason
Speaker 2I say that is because I, I'm an observer and what I've observed is, and this is just my own personal opinion. So don't come for me if, if you think I'm wrong. Okay. But yeah, canceled. I think people are terrified of their, of dealing with their pain. You know, I've watched people come in and I've watched them go back out because that pain consumes them again. And trying something new is so much more terrifying than living in that pain or sorry. Yeah. Then dealing with that pain. So I think like it takes a lot of courage and it takes a lot of work, takes a lot of willingness. It takes a lot to make those changes. And it's so much, and for some it's easy. And it was for me too. It was easier for me to just go. Back, you know, to not face these things. Like my recovery has been extremely painful, but it's also been full of, of the most beautiful blessings, like not without pain, but that pain I think is very hard for some people to face.
Speaker 1Yeah. And without pain, you wouldn't experience the high highs, right? It's like, I wouldn't appreciate a sunset if I hadn't seen a million cloudy days.
Speaker 2I used to hate the sun. Birds are chirping, the sun's out, rude. I am busy. Like, you know what I mean? I'm not done yet. Yeah. Like the wind would piss me off, like everything, you know? And now like, those are some of the most, like the sunset, the waves crashing, like these are the things that I, like I love, you know, there's something really healing about the water and like being able to have a moment where I'm actually able to watch the sunset and not be thinking about, well, I got to get back to my car because I need to use, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1Not thinking about yesterday, tomorrow.
Speaker 2Yeah. Who I heard earlier, why I need to do this, why I need to do this, why I need to do this. Why I need to cover this pain up.
Speaker 1Yeah. It's exhausting.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1So you mentioned that you had some bottoms like in recovery. Yeah. How did you get through those? And yeah, I don't really know either. I don't know how I've gotten through them. So I, I like what you said about trusting, right? Faith being trust. Yeah. I don't know why this is happening, but I know that the outcome is going to be what it's going to be, right? It's not going to be good or bad, but ultimately it's better if I stay in recovery. It's better if I go back out. So can you talk about like a little bit about your hardships and.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely. So I think. um for me um I had no trust when I came in like at all I think a lot like I think that's normal for a lot of us I don't want to speak for anyone else but in my experience um trust was non-existent for me like non-existent uh however um and I also did not get along with women at all for the most part like women and I just we didn't I had no recovery or like pre-recovery okay yeah like just I grew up with women hating my guts which was fine I didn't really like them either so uh but when I got into recovery all of a sudden I was surrounded by all these really strong women and like women who you know weren't there to tear me down women who were there to pick me up and so I think my trust started there you know when I was able to like you know and I think it goes back to like childhood stuff you know like I had a really abusive mother and so the trust there with women was already broken and now there's these women and I have to I have to trust them because they're the ones that are showing me where I gotta go and so that kind of opened the door to the trust thing um and I think that helped a lot with when things happened in my life like really negative things um because I was able to like call this group of really strong women who would not co-sign me up and I was able to like call this group of really strong women who would not co-sign me up and I was able to like call this group of really strong women who would not co-sign me up and I was able to like call this group of really strong women who would not not co-sign me up and I was able to like call this group of really strong women who would not co-sign any of my bullshit they would tell me the truth they would support me you know they'd let me talk about my problem but what's the solution attached to that we're not staying in the problem yeah because like if you let me live in the prop in the problem I'm going like I'm gonna end up going back out eventually I don't want to do that I want to talk about it for a minute though because I'm in pain but now tell me like tell me the truth so and and that built a lot of trust and I think that's how um I've gotten through everything it's like I do have these people in my corner that I can rely on and I I'm able to ask for help now where before I was never able to ask for help I was just this ultra independent or seemingly super independent person who didn't need anything from anyone and really like you can't do this alone yeah so I think that's kind of like a big pivotal moment um I also had a moment in recovery I think I was about 18 months clean and sober and I was in a relationship you know we had used together and we met in active addiction and then I got clean and sober and he didn't and um you know I blamed him for a lot of things for a long time but the more recovery I got the more I could see why he acted the way he did but I wasn't able to necessarily change my behavior at the time um and I went through this bottom and recovery where I was just like so angry and sad and I didn't know how to manage anything and I was driving my car and I'm crying and screaming like if somebody saw me they would probably call 9-1-1 like somebody come get her she's not okay um and I think that's where my faith really shifted um and where I got this trusting moment because I put my phone on do not disturb when I got home and I'm just crying and crying and like this lasted for hours and then all of a sudden it stopped like I was just sitting there like begging God like please like fucking help me like I am dying here in recovery and oh god I'm just thinking about it and uh it was like if I could visualize it it was like something just grabbed me and like squished me and it was like everything's and I stopped crying immediately like I mean ugly snotty cry and just immediately it just and from that moment I think that's where my faith really started to grow it was like I don't need to know the answers I don't need to know um if everything's going to be okay like it is I have to just trust that um but I think there's a lot of power in going through those really tough times because that's how we learn um like I I shared my story once at a treatment center and I was talking about how I was addicted to suffering I was like I would I will suffer through anything that is my superpower I can do it but like do I want to suffer no do I want to feel pain yeah I can go through pain that's cool I don't want to suffer anymore I don't want to be addicted to that chaos and um one of the women said how do you know if you're suffering or you're in pain and I was like oh shit that's a good question
Speaker 3they are yeah and I did
Speaker 2I said give me a minute and I was like sitting there like shit how do you know and and so for me if I'm comfortable in my pain I'm suffering if I am uncomfortable in my pain that is pain there's growth on the other side of that but if I'm sitting there comfortably in my pain and I'm in self-pity and self-loathing I am not growing there is no growth attached to that I am literally feeding the devil right now that is what I'm doing you know I'm feeding my demons um so yeah I've been through a lot of of hardship in recovery but that hardship has been the best thing for me because there's so
Speaker 1much growth attached to that and then too like you get to a point where you're like if I can get
Speaker 2through that jesus I can get through anything oh I say that about I say that about I called my sponsor one day and I was like guess what happened and I told her and I forget what it was and she was like the next time somebody says to me I can't do this I'm just going to tell them to call you because she's like I swear to god you've been through like every possible thing that you could go through in recovery and um but I'm grateful for that yeah isn't it for you to be able to do that you can't remember what I can't remember what it was because it wasn't that bad no at the time I'm like oh my god this is terrible my life's over and then I'm like what happened last week I don't even
Speaker 1know it's it's crazy we do this thing where we we walk around like with movie projectors projecting our movie onto the world right and somebody comes in they're like it's not that bad dude like I've been through worse I've been through that and got through it whether it's financial whether it's um there's a lot of bad shit that can happen in life you know abuse right and people have gone through it they're going through it right now they're you know I had a woman here that um got through sex trafficking and she's sober now and like her story was insane I couldn't relate to half the shit but I could relate to all the feelings and I could relate to wanting love and I could relate to codependence and like if she can get through that and like you know what I mean and we're all it's not to say that her trauma is worse than anyone trauma is subjective right you know your trauma or my trauma I'll say it this way my trauma might be your Tuesday afternoon you
Speaker 2know what I mean so I think that's important to note and it's something that I share a lot if I'm sharing my story is like my story is not going to look like yours and whether it's seemingly worse or seemingly better than your story remember that like everybody's pain is relevant like it is everybody's and it's it's relative to you so whatever I feel and whatever I went through whatever you feel and whatever you went through the feelings of the same story is different I think that's really important
Speaker 1absolutely did you um so you mentioned drugs a lot yeah did you struggle with alcohol as well
Speaker 2or was that kind of alcohol was probably like the worst for me like I was I used heavy drugs when I was younger I took like a very long hiatus and started um again like later in life after my last or just before I got pregnant with my last son and it almost took me out like it was like I didn't miss a day
Speaker 1I hear this a lot the reason I ask you that I hear this a lot where people are coming in and they're like yeah yeah I'm a drug addict check and I was like this too but alcohol was never my problem
Speaker 2what do you say to those people when they say that it's not my place so for my for me um it anything like it doesn't matter what it is if I'm using something to to fill the hole my ego dug I have a problem like anything that's numbing my feelings I have a problem with I am an addict through and through it doesn't matter what it is I will use people I will use places I will use to the things whatever it takes to fill that void I will I will do it period um so like I was absolutely an alcoholic it took me a bit to to come to that because it's so socially acceptable right but like every time I put alcohol in my body I can't stop and every time I put any substance I can't stop I was the same with relationships I can't stop um so you know that's what it is for me so um I can't yeah that's that's my opinion on it no it's true
Speaker 1and I you know the reason I bring it up is because it's a pretty common thing where people are able to accept I I go back to my treatment center um every so often when I'm able to and we do an aftercare program and there was a guy that was sitting there I was like yeah like I I check I'm an addict for sure but I think I can still drink like I think I still got this right and I definitely was like that when I first came yeah I heard it uh someone say in Utah one time when I was there for treatment the same shit different shovel you know I love it it is like I use outside things to do gambling I've done it with anything all sorts of relationships like you said all sorts of things um for me though um when I start drinking I just immediately want drugs yep right so it was like when I said and when I said that to him he was like oh yeah yeah like me too right and that was a simple enough to kind of Bridge the Gap there um and I can't remember a time where I can remember a time where I maybe had a glass of wine this was a long time ago but at some point in the future I was grabbing cocaine yeah it's like I don't know it's like it's like it's like I don't know I don't
Speaker 2think it's like the the shift like my brain shift too right like if I were to make the conscious decision today to pick up a drink before I even get to that drink I'm ruining everybody's life that's that's the reality of the type of addict alcoholic I am I don't need to actually have the substance in my body I just need to have that conscious choice that that's the way I'm gonna live my life because once I start living in my active addiction self I literally destroy everything
Speaker 1all the behaviors all the thought patterns come with it um all the poor me and that's a good point
Speaker 2I hadn't thought about that right and I like that's that's what's really um like really big for me today is like I really thought drugs and alcohol were my problem and they weren't they were my solution they they're actually what kept me alive for a bit if I'm being honest like yes they almost took my life but they also saved me from the pain I didn't want to feel but what I really really really realized through doing work in recovery is like that was not my problem my problem was me it was the things I was avoiding the pain I didn't want to face you know it was all of those things and because of those things I ended up hurting so many people so many people and that is not the life I want to live today it's exhausting it's so exhausting and it's filled
Speaker 1with shame and guilt and again like you mentioned before who did I hurt what who do I have to make an apology to and the sorries and right yeah and some people aren't coming back yeah like that's
Speaker 2a good point too yeah so I explain sometimes like the way I see it is like there's these scales and and on one side you have people's love for you and on the other side they you have your their fear of you reoffending and the more we lie and the more we hurt and the more pain we cause their fear of us reoffending just goes up and up and up and then we get decide to make this we decide to get into recovery and like change our lives that fear of us reoffending doesn't come down right away and for some people it's never coming down it's not that they don't love us it's just that their fear of us reoffending is so much more so much greater than their love for us and the trust is just gone and I mean I'm not gonna force anybody back into my life like if your if your life is better without me in it then it should probably stay that way like I take no offense to that anymore yeah I and
Speaker 1again I have no control over it anyways and the minute I try to control that like yeah you mentioned the beginning everything goes up because control is uh our biggest enemy it really is I just want everyone to live my way I just want everyone to live my way I just want everyone to live my way right yes um beautiful amazing let's uh end with this because I always end with this but if you could say something to someone struggling in active alcoholism or addiction right now what
Speaker 2would you say oh that's a good question um I don't know because there's nothing anyone could have said to me I what I will say is like I truly believe that I was incapable of change and I did not believe anybody was capable of change I thought that's just the way people are that's it until I saw the other side I was incapable of seeing that it was possible um and now I do believe that anybody can change I do believe that it is possible and it is possible for anybody um but you have to you have to take that first step nobody can take it for you love it and there's a lot of help out there too there's so much help yeah I love it yeah to your point it's like I can watch a million recovery
Speaker 1videos but until I make that first step and it's right it's nobody's coming to save you nobody like it sounds harsh but it's true I've had that experience thousand percent you know my parents could do all the support financially and emotionally and bringing me and whatever but I had to get in the car I had to stay at the treatment center I had to do the work like it's all these things that line up together yeah right thank you so much Candice for coming down thank you for having me I appreciate you I had so much
Speaker 4fun today I'm so nervous you did great thanks thanks for listening please help us grow the channel and like share and subscribe for more content the discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for information only informational and motivational purposes only this content is not a substitute for professional medical advice addiction treatment or therapy if you or someone you know is struggling with addiction please consult a licensed physician addiction specialist or mental health professional you are no longer alone Thanks for watching!
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