Breaking Free (addiction: substance abuse, phone, pornography etc.) | Cross Chat Podcast EP 2 - Cross Chat Podcast

Understanding Addiction: From Digital Scrolls to Workaholism Any of you struggling with any form of addiction right now? Speaker 2 Phone, phone, like Instagram, TikTok and I and I think that there's like a root cause of it. Speaker 1 OK. Of the interesting addiction. Yeah. OK, before we go to the root cause, what is your addiction? Speaker 3 Oh don't scrolling for sure, that's the main one. Speaker 4 The last. Speaker 1 Really. Yeah. OK, Yeah. So hi, welcome everybody. Today we're going to talk a bit about addictions. I think it's an interesting topic, right? Because globally addictions is affecting a lot of people. And you know, addictions is really indiscriminatory. It affects regardless of how old you are, what gender, what life stage, what race it it, it doesn't matter. Addictions impact everybody. The top five addictions plaguing us nowadays is digital addiction. I'm guilty of that. The endless scrolling on TikTok, Instagram reels and stuff like that. Pornography and sexual addiction, substance abuse, workaholism and and gambling. Speaker 3 I would define addiction as something that is basically an obsessive need or or compulsive need for something that ends up destroying you or the people around you. Yeah. So the line is when you are lacking in something, you're not fulfilling a basic need in your life or it is even destroying the relationships around the people around the people work of the people around you. OK. I think that's the line. Speaker 1 OK, so Pastor Andy, let me ask you this question. When we were trying to organise this and we spoke to many different pastors, right? Everyone is always so busy. What we find that all the pastors are consistently under pressure, they're expecting attention from from the congregation and and stuff like that. So from a pastor's work perspective, is that considered as an addiction to your work? Speaker 4 Yeah, I think that, you know, we are caught to a work, we are caught to go all in, but yet we also need to look after ourselves, having a sense of balance with family. So I'm someone who will who will make sure that I take my off days as much as I can. I rest. You caught me during my holiday, right? Yes, which you didn't know. So no, I no offence taken. Yeah. Yeah. But I told you and I messaged you. I said can I can I get back to you tomorrow? Yeah, right. But but yes, but at the end, in the evening, I still call you back. Never mind. OK, That's me. Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah. So you're passionate about the of the work? Speaker 4 But I I think there needs to be some guidelines that got real slah, right? Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah. From Drug Use to Subtle Habits: Personal Battles with Addiction So Bruce Elijah, have you Personally, I will struggle with addiction before. Speaker 5 So to me, I, I think addiction is a, is a strong word. It's a very strong word. It, it comprise that it means that you cannot function without doing certain things. You cannot function normally. And if, let's say, a person was on drugs, I was addicted to drugs when in my younger years. And in order to to be to be normal, to feel normal, I have to have that fix of drugs. OK. Yeah. So that craving actually supersede even food, you know, I can forgo the food. I cannot have, cannot live without drugs. And that that was that serious, you know? Yeah. And slowly after a while, you I, I feel that, you know, I'm spiralling down because it's not, not cheap to get drugs. Speaker 1 How? How do you feed the habit and how? How long does this habit last? Speaker 5 It started like I was curious because people around me was doing it and say, hey, Bruce, come on, let's do it. And those days I was into rock music, you know, and I tried marijuana and it, it wasn't that serious those days, you know, and CMB don't really have the chemical to test your, your urine for the substance of, of consuming drugs. Wow. OK. And so, so during the school days, we were all, it's like we are doing it and it's so cool, right? Speaker 1 So your parents didn't, didn't, or did they try to put a stop to that habit? Speaker 5 They try to, you know, parents those days are the the the only way I think that my parents know. Yeah. Was the cane right? Yeah. Speaker 1 And that didn't work. Speaker 5 It didn't work. So the more they wag, the more rebellious I become. Wow. Yeah. I left home. I did not come back. I stay out with friends. I hang out late. Speaker 1 Yeah, wow. Speaker 4 Like, I'm just curious to know what what led you towards the, the realisation that you need help and, and how, how, how, how did that help come about? And yeah, how did that help you? Yeah, break out this addiction. Speaker 5 Addiction is not the like you can have, let's say cure for it. There's no certain, like do something and you're, you know, that people say, oh, you're addicted, Maybe you're too free, Get yourself occupied, do something and and it doesn't work that way, right. And some people say, oh, because you're sad, you know, then maybe that's why you're depressed. You want to take some drugs. Actually, it's not addiction. Yeah. Even if a person is happy, rich, poor, sad, the person will still want to have that fixed or drugs. It's just like to them, it's like to me at that time was like everything black and white, you know, the black and white TV, no colour. So you want to add a little bit of colour to spice it up to make it feel better. Speaker 3 I I think that there were come a time that you realise that. Are you in control of that, or is that in control of you? Speaker 1 So it's too late by then, right? Because by the time you realise it is in control of you, you too far gone. Speaker 3 Or you could. I mean, sometimes the the telltale signs are. Speaker 1 So if you are talking about somebody who's again, going from hobby to I'm curious, I, I'll try it out. I, I, I like it, I use it occasionally to I use it frequently to I cannot live without. OK, along this spectrum. My, my point is that by the time you come to AI can't live without. So my question is, how do you is it possible to arrest it at the earlier stage? Whose responsibility it is? Speaker 2 I think having an addiction coming out of it and knowing your own limits is very individual. It is not a set template for everybody. You have to maybe experience one addiction before knowing, oh, how are you like in an addiction. And then this is like before you cross that path, how you be, how are you like before an addiction, right before addiction And then when you catch yourself at that point. Speaker 5 I feel that for a person to realise that the person is being is addicted to certain stuff, first of all, there's a stage of denial, right? And still they were denied. You say no. It's why it's not, why only it doesn't harm me. I'm controlling it. I'm managing well until the person really realised it, you know? It's taking a toll on on that person, you know? Speaker 3 So I think just to echo what the knee shed, maybe perhaps sometimes we do need to reach that stage before we can understand what the trigger slang that can trigger another addiction. So for example, when I was younger, so I I was I was addicted to smoking. OK. And then after a while I realised that my friends pointed out to me that you're they're spending quite a bit of money on this. Nah, that's oh. Then because of that I don't have food to eat, things like that, for example. Then it was like oh Nola, I'll be fine lah, I'll be fine. I'm OK. You know any sense? Speaker 1 I can stop anytime. Speaker 3 I can stop anytime. No, it's just it's social, my social, social, right. So then it came to a point that what? Actually, there were times that I didn't have cash. I need to start borrowing. OK. Then you, you borrow for a lot of people. Yeah. I can lie. I can lie. No, no problem. Yeah. But anyway, then there came a point where you realise that sharks, actually a lot of people tell me this, really. And it's true that I do owe kind of some money. So I need to find a way out after that, right. Then I became a bit more aware of what drives me to do certain acts that may lead to an addiction, like the trigger, like, oh, I'm spending a bit more time on this now, eh, why am I spending more time on this compared to how I usually am? Then I like Kiv keep review, like, eh, oh, it's getting more. It's getting more. OK, must cut down. Yeah. So I, I think that having the first addiction sort of gave me like a guide as to how do I respond when certain things take more time from me #1 and #2 how does that affect the others around me? OK, yeah. Because addictions are not just you, what they affect the people around you as well. Speaker 1 Right. Yeah. So, OK, so let's have an open question here, right? Any of you struggling with any form of addiction right now? Speaker 2 Phone, phone, like Instagram, Tiktok and I and I think that there's like a root cause of it, of the addiction, yeah. Speaker 1 OK, before we go to the root cross, what is your addiction? Speaker 3 Oh don't scrolling for sure, that's the main one. Speaker 4 Last. Speaker 1 Really. Yeah. OK, Yeah. Speaker 5 I, I experienced real, I mean, drug addiction, alcohol, secret sex and gang. I was involved with gangs and all that, right. And so that kind of lifestyle is, is like one package. You cannot have something without that thing. So it's so that kind of lifestyle. So coming from that until right now, I'm totally like sober and stop everything. So like social media, sometimes I do, but I don't stick. So I don't consider it as as a addiction itself. OK food. Sometimes I like to eat my nice food, but I control. You know, I like to exercise, but you know, I control. Speaker 1 I was going to go that I I know a lady who actually came and tell me I think I'm addicted to going to the gym because I want to look good all the time. So would you, would you? And she can't live without that. Literally every day, no matter how tired. Is that fitness or is that addiction? She goes to the gym. Speaker 2 I used to have that problem actually, really like when I was in secondary school. I used to be very addicted to losing weight and then exercise comes along with it and food also controlling my own food intake and it became an obsession to the point where I couldn't even hear the voices around me telling me that it was a problem. Speaker 1 Sometimes these addictions are very subtle. Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. It's like like some people they say enter the coffee, they can't operate in the morning without coffee. Speaker 1 OK, I have. Speaker 3 The morning coffee, Afternoon coffee, Evening coffee. Speaker 1 So going back to this subtlety of, you know, some sometimes addictions you keep it secret, right, because you're ashamed. For example, you mentioned the word last. If it's if it's OK, could you just share with us a bit about this addiction that you are dealing with? Speaker 4 Well, you all started when I was really young. My, my parents were separated for a period of time. I'm the only child, so I had a lot of time in my hands back then. So I chanced upon when I was really young. I think I was probably 4. Yeah, very. For when I chanced upon some materials. And then it started from there. Yeah. So it went on. It spiralled on all the way from experimental to. It became a habit. It became an obsession. It became addiction. There were times where I OK, let me just try to dummify it. I'll do things to myself. All right. Speaker 1 In terms of OK, let's call a spade a. Speaker 4 Spade yeah, right. Sometimes up to three times a day because it's like without it, it's just, it's just burning to me already since young, right. So then it it, it went on to a point I have to qualify. All this happened before I was a Christian. And then it went on to a point where I, I had relationships and it went into those relationships. And then it came to a point when like what Bruce was sharing you, you, you just try to deny say that this is really nothing. It's. Speaker 1 Normal, yeah, but when did it become a problem if it's not a? Speaker 4 Problem. When did it become a? Speaker 1 Problem. When did you know it was a problem? Speaker 4 It wasn't. It was to me. I mean, I tell my friends, they all laugh at me and say everybody. Speaker 1 'S doing it right, yeah. Speaker 4 Precisely. So you don't know, you don't think there is a problem, right? Yeah. Until you come to a point where there's a black and white in another perspective. The word of God law says that this is not right. You should love the body or you know the temple of God and and you shouldn't do things that either. Obviously you start to realise that when you when you when you think of such thoughts, when you go to such sites, you are viewing the creation of God, the brother and sister. Sorry, not brother, the sisters. Speaker 3 I mean today's time the. Speaker 4 The, the, the, the, the sisters as, as, as your sister. Yeah, you know, yeah, they, they, they are all children of God, you know, and it's just the kind of perspective and then the kind of relationship that are in. Am I really in just for the emotion or the physical, OK, you know that that sort of that sort of things and. Speaker 1 Does it matter what you're in for? Speaker 4 Exploiting them for your own? Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 So at that point in time was more of a physical need that you're. Speaker 4 Trying to be mixed, love, but you know, like, I'm sorry, you won't know. Sorry. I know. I know. Yeah. Speaker 1 No, I think most of us do know. I mean, there were we had another session and another pastor was sharing with us that before the age of 12, most kids in Singapore would already have been exposed. Speaker 3 Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. So it's, I don't think it's something that we should, we should deny. Speaker 3 Right, global average is 8 now. Speaker 1 8 years old. Yeah, really. Speaker 3 Yeah, it is. So, yeah. So it's like, it's like going on. Yeah. I mean, just to add to to Pastor, right. Like back then when I was also struggling with pornography, it was the mere objectification of women and more of a narcissistic approach on men that got me to realise, eh, how come I think this way suddenly, which is basically like women as objects in that sense, right? Like when you look at a woman and then you're like, you have all those thoughts that run in your mind, where do they come from, right? It comes from the addiction. How come I don't, I cannot respect a woman as a woman with rights and a whole person just like me. So these addictions tend to wire your brain in a way that you are supposed to be like this. Sex ends when the guy ends. Speaker 1 That's it. Speaker 3 And then you basically have no respect for the women. Yeah, but then that's, and then this whole thing about exploitation. So I was like, I'm very big on pornography because like after I, I, I, I got safely from it. I did a lot of research and a lot of I was very like intrigued by this whole thing and this whole idea of what, of exploitation. I think that was a a part that really affected me, that tonnes of women are doing these things without their consent or they are forced to their coerced things like that. Yeah. So anyway, coming back to this, this like these habits or these addictions can rewire our brains to look at people differently. Yeah. And I think that distorts how we see people and that and that's why we need got to save us and cleanse us and things like that. Yeah. But this is my personal experience, OK? Speaker 1 OK. Speaker 2 What? What if somebody says, oh, it's not an addiction? Speaker 3 Well, I think like what Bruce said just now, right, Like it begins with denial. So of course you cannot assume that everybody who says it's not addiction, miss denial maybe to some people is really not an addiction. It could just be like, oh, you know, just do it once, you know, and things like that. But to me, I think the line is the how you know when something is an addiction or not, right? It's when you just can't do without it. And it's the realisation of that. Yeah, sometimes it's. Speaker 1 How, How would you say it to somebody that you suspect or you believe strongly that this person has an addiction? How would you tell that person? Speaker 3 I would say like can you firstly depends on what's the addiction. Speaker 1 Yeah, OK. Any addiction? Speaker 3 So if it's, let's say, if it's pornography, let's see, then I would say, can you go on for a month without it, Right. Then if they can, then OK, no, it's not addiction. But even then, right, I would still say you need to really guide your thoughts because sometimes it may not be the ACT, but it may be the thoughts that stem or yeah, the root cause. Like you don't know the root cause, Ma, this is just the, the what do you call it? The symptom of it, right? I think Bruce was talking about just now the symptom of it. But what is the root cause behind? It is something that perhaps you can join it with to explore. Exploring the Deep Roots: Trauma, Belonging, and Coping Mechanisms OK, I think this great lead into this word root cause, right words. So what are the typical root causes of any addiction? Speaker 5 What if the person deny, right? I mean, I say, oh, it's not that addiction. So addiction can have different degrees. Some people, they're addicted, they do it every day, but it's manageable to them. They don't display out outwardly, OK, you know, in the secret at their own time. So nobody knows right until the person really feels that it is really getting in their life really in destroying their marriage or destroying their ability to function in a daily manner that's required work or something. And that is where you, you, you can see it outwardly, you know, as ex external friends or family members, we can see, yeah, some people are managing very well. You cannot even notice that the person has has gotten this issue. Yeah. So the person itself got to be willing to be open to seek help. Addiction is actually what has family friends and church members or colleagues. What we see is just the surface. You know, it may be excessive drinking or loan shark harassing home because of a loan didn't service the loan or maybe pornographic and you know, a lot of sexual activities, prostitution and all that. And these are all the surface what we see drug addiction as well, right, heroin or ice or K pot right now. But the underlying issue, the root cause is it may be something else is so complex, we don't know. And so I do counselling as well. And sometimes we try to find the root cause, try to find what happened, you know, is there something missing? Because because of that it may be hurt, it may be rejection, abandonment, a broken relationship and the person is trying to cope and don't know how to cope. So addiction, it's something that is actually a coping mechanism and what we see why you are doing this, you shouldn't be doing that, but actually the root cause is something else so deep inside. Speaker 1 So with your experience in in counselling, right, what are the typical root causes that puts somebody into a position of being addicted to to something else to fill that gap? Speaker 5 So I talk about myself, my case, right? So as I comes out from addiction set free and I reflect back, you know, since a child, since I was a child before even I go to kindergarten, you know, my parents was working very hard and I was actually living with my nanny, right? And so that separation, I only come in on come back home on weekend. And every weekend I'd want to go back home to my nanny. Yeah. Because I'm so attached. I was so attached to my parents. And I, I don't understand why, because my sisters are living with my parents and I'm away from them, you know. So from that I trace back to that that during that age, I, I sense that something that maybe I'm, I'm not too good or I'm not here. I don't know, you know, and and slowly there's this thing always inside me. Yeah. And when I moved back home. And so I feel that what drives me to addition during my earlier years to my late, late 20s, right? It was acceptance belonging. And I came to know a group of friends and they are so cool, right? And that times was my friend. But they don't gang member brotherhood, right? So they say why adults are like that one, they don't understand. Don't worry. My parents also like that. Then I got my result, you know, he says I got 33 remarks. He said don't worry Bruce. I got 4, right. So I feel the acceptance, you know, I feel the belonging of this brotherhood. They understand me. They don't judge me. They don't condemn me. And from young already I have, you know, this kind of thinking, you know, I since I can't do well academically, I will do well in another way. And I was fascinated with the the mafia movie, Hong Kong gangster movie. And I say I want to be like, damn. So slowly. That was actually the root cause. And because everybody was using it and I use I use the drugs. Yeah. Yeah. OK. And I feel, you know, I don't feel judged. Everybody is using it, even though I know that I you know, I was heading to destruction because many of my friends, they were sentenced to many years in prison. Some of them are in the gallows. They did. And because of drugs, some of them are overdose, sometimes jump down, you know they the overdose of drugs and die. So up to a point that I feel that I cannot live on like that. Speaker 1 What was it? Moment of realisation. Speaker 5 I was in and out of prison for many years, right? I serve around 13 years in a prison. So coming into prison is like everybody know Bruce is back. Really. Oh, Sam and everything back to normal. The gang, the activities in a prison those days was rampant. I was very strong gang culture. So every time you want to come out of it, because of that, your face, you cannot let people down. You people are watching you this and that. So that kind of very stronghold of a dark culture until finally, you know, I I say I cannot go on like that. I don't want to live my life. That was in my I was in my late 20s. Yeah. Speaker 1 So in in these movies, right, especially the Hong Kong movies, you know, when you want to come out 22 let me see the gang. It's it's not as easy, right? There's a price to pay and there's a penalty to pay and all that is that is that but reality. Speaker 5 In in the Singapore kind of scene context, it's not like the Hong Kong style. Yeah, because if the new ones wants to come out, yes, but for the old timer we already done it proven. So we of course there are some negative comments inside when we say we want to follow Jesus, we want to give our life to Jesus. People will say this guy crazy already, cannot, cannot take the sentence already. You know how long he will sustain when he is go, he go out, how long will he be sober? When will he be coming in again? So there will be negative comments, you know. Yeah. And so I face that because that those days are we we, you know, we try to put on a strong front front and all that. But when I really gave my life to the Lord, it was in the prison, right? It was not in a comfortable church air con. It was sit on the floor. It was in a Chapel and I I sense God is calling me. God is wanting me to come back to him. There was an auto call. Speaker 1 This relationship with these gang members, was it kind of addiction as well? You just needed to just get the acceptance, yes, You know, so a lot of times people join groups because they are, they're looking for the sense of belonging, acceptance. Speaker 5 Right. Yeah, correct. Speaker 4 OK, but but but different. Finding Lasting Freedom Through Faith, Community, and Professional Help I, I thought I wanted to to to to hold hone in on the the root issues. I think we need to really talk about this. For one, I believe those things is more than just mere curiosity because I think upon reflecting a lot of times I go to such actions because to numb a certain sense of pain, a sense of because of the separation of my parents. But eventually by God's grace, they reconcile and both became Christians. But that's another story for another day. So so during that period of time and what happens to numbing the pain? It became something physical, right? It became something physical that that there's dopamine, right? You know, you, you do the thing, you get the high, you get whatever, right? You get the sense in it and then it repeats itself. And then from from something that's physio physiological, it becomes physical. It becomes a habit, right, that you can't seem to break out of. Yeah. So, so for me, over time, of course, the physiological part is that finding God, right? Can definitely, there's a sense of the acceptance, there's a sense of realisation that you don't need this to numb the numb the pain or whatever, right? Yeah. But the physical part is the challenge, right? Because a lot of times you are in it, in it on your own. Yeah. And something to me, there's a stigma. And especially so when you become a youth worker, you become a Christian, even more stigma, right? Nobody want to talk about this kind of thing, right? Yeah. So so the physical part is the challenging one, right? And I think it's very important first to acknowledge that we need help. Very, very, very important, yeah, and and find help from community. So that's why I, I make it a point to straight away tell back then my my wife who's who was my girlfriend. I said you've got to be careful of me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I went in. Speaker 1 What a great pick up line. Speaker 4 Obviously it didn't start. Speaker 1 There like that. Speaker 4 Yeah, I thought, I guarantee we'll do something right. Yeah. OK. For sure. Yes. And then, of course, you went on to. For my kids, when they reach a certain age, I share with them openly that that still has this kind of struggle, but it's gone down a lot. OK. Thank God. Really. Yeah, Really. Really. A lot. But here and there, it still catches you. Of course it still catches you. Yeah. And I tell my kids, I tell when they are of a certain age. I tell my wife back then when she was my girlfriend. I already told her already so that there's the sense whereby I know that when I need help, I can go back to them. I don't need to be afraid, right? The more the people know and I tell you it's very different when you, when you share. The more you share, right, the more free you become, you know, the more free you are, you know, and I really thank God for the response because the response is not one of condemnation. I think that's very important. So I think as people who are going to help people, right, Yeah. We cannot go in and then just say what is wrong, what is wrong, yes, but then we must not accepting of the behaviour. But they really accept that they are going through this journey. They want help, they need help, and you are and they come to you. That means that there's the sense whereby they believe in you and they really feel that you can be part of their journey. Speaker 3 Can I, can I just backtrack a bit because you mentioned freedom, right? Yeah. And I think the opposite of freedom, or rather before freedom is a lot of guilt. Yeah. So like how, how did you? Speaker 1 Yeah. How? Yeah, great question. Speaker 3 I mean, I mean, because I also struggled, right? So like. Speaker 4 That's where the devil wants you to be, right? In a sense of guilt and shame, Yeah, right. And I think that that's what he wants to trap you in. And I realised that when the more you share openly, the more vulnerable you are able to, to be with people, in fact, of a lot of support on there. Yeah, I really a lot of support. And I, and I feel that I look at this person, the person looks at me, you know, and we kind of know that, you know, any part of time, this person can talk to me about the same thing, right. Or whatever. Whatever. Kind of. Because unlike you, you're like me in law. We are all the same law. We are all struggling. We all need family and friends. We all need support. Speaker 3 Because I think the guilt can be very heavy and the guilt can also make you do other things also like more self-destructive behaviours. Even so, for me, I think I echo the same thing, which is to get another voice other than the voice that's inside your head that is telling you that you are nobody, you are loser, you are an addict. You will never be free. You are just your monster. You know, all this negative things are. Yeah. It's like, you know, and then you have another voice, an alternate voice, right, that sort of corrects these things or tell you that it actually that's not true. So the power of communities is it's very important in managing guilt now. Speaker 1 OK, Is it realistic? Because I, I personally feel that people tend to judge more than they are. They help, right? So how do you, how can you be open enough to share this with somebody without losing faith, without fearing for your reputation, if any, if that's needed, or without a concern that it might impact your relationships or your status with this society? How do you deal with it? Speaker 3 So So for me was so OK, you all know my father's a pastor, right? So as a pastor's kid growing up, somehow there's a lot of expectations on you. You're supposed to be like the model kid, right? So what happens when you struggle with certain things? What happens when like in secondary school when I was sharing, right, What happens when you struggle with certain addictions? Could you? So what happened was to me was I was alone. I will never ever speak to any other youth in my church about this or friends at that time, even though they might be doing the same things. But I won't say because what if I say then they bow told me to my to like their parents and oh, pastor's son can can do this. Why he cannot do all up until there was this older brother of mine, like I think about 15 years older than me. But when he shared something about his life, which is basically his his journey of finding his partner and then certain things that he said there was like, eh, this guy understands. He's not from my church, from another church and not from the my immediate circle. So that I thought, should I try? Should I try? Should I try? So I actually only let out this information to one person and this older brother actually journey with me throughout. Yeah. And so it took a lot for me to to open up to someone because when you share, you cannot just share it a bit. You must share from the start. So he asked me a lot of questions like, oh, actually, you know, how did he start, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What's the extent they have gone to OK, you know, And then a lot of assurance, like, hey, don't worry, You know, there's always a way out and we'll journey this together. So I think that there's a struggle for the addict to come out to share because it involves a lot of trust. Yeah. So I think firstly, as people who do not, who probably have overcome this addiction to maybe share in a vulnerable way that, look, whatever you're going through is not new. This addition is not new. Substance abuse is not new. Pornography is not new. Online shopping is not new. I'm just saying like these addictions are not new. Yeah. So that helps in people to trust you to open up. So I think it may not be the most idealist thing, like, oh, just tell your whole youth group, guys, I'm struggling with this. But like that one or two people who, you know, can journey if you who can understand. Yeah, to me, that was my experience. Speaker 5 I guess for for the helper itself, you got to know what the helper is doing to help this person, right? And so for the person that is seeking help, the person also need to know you don't just go around and share your your issue because some people may say, OK, ask the whole church to pray for you. What's? Speaker 4 The approach. Speaker 5 So you got to be selective and also know that, you know, this person can really help. And then when you approach that person and the person that is helping got to also go down to the level of the person seeking help. Yeah. And addiction is like, you ask the person, oh you stop this, but stop really how to cope. You also need to teach the person how to cope. Speaker 1 You need to fill it with something, otherwise that void. Speaker 5 Yeah, correct. So sometimes it may work, You may want to fill up with certain thing, oh go for a certain activities, but the person may not feel that this is really a coping thing for it may be something else. So you got to explore together what works not for the helper, but for the person that is seeking help, what works for them. Yeah. Speaker 1 I mean, I think people who have addictions need also to mentally prepare that, hey, OK, this is not going to be a two weeks. I do more reservists, I come out right. It's going to be maybe years of struggling with this, right? I think the what What is the reality for those of us who have struggle and overcome addiction? Speaker 2 Who is responsible for this addiction? Who is responsible for getting rid of this addiction Yes, there's community. Yes, there's of course praying and just seeking God and seeking God to fill that void, right? But at the same time there's also willpower. There's it's a very personal journey that you have to take. Also, yes, there's friends that can keep you accountable, but are you going to tell these friends when you fall into the scene again? I think. Speaker 1 In the interest of time, Bruce, I, I really want to get back to you because you have you have experienced that the drug addiction. The the last two questions I'd like to ask you when, when, why, why did one, why did you realise this mistake in your 20s? You know, and, and from there, can you share with us? I think it's good for everybody to know what it felt like getting 15 strokes of the Rotan. Speaker 5 When I come to actually, I try to, I try to do it on my own strength to, to quit every time after two or three times when I was in and out, but I couldn't because the, the craving, the need to have it supersede everything, you know. And so I relapsed and went back again and in and out again until finally I come to a point at one of my friend. He came into the prison as a volunteer, as a prison volunteer. He was my old khaki, you know, and he called me Bruce. I couldn't recognise him. He was like double his size really those days was really very scrawny and say who are you? He said my name is so And so. He said now my life changed. I come to accept Jesus. I've got two daughters. I'm serving a lot. And that afternoon, that impression stuck to my mind. I see this guy can change. What's that mean? No, I couldn't. I couldn't believe. So after that, I still go to that to that Chapel because you know, when you lock up in the cell, you go Chapel, you've got to see civilians and all that. And I want to know Discord, you know, and from then on that that year on during the Christmas service, I remember the pastor was preaching about God's love, God love. He want you to come back this and that. I was seated right behind at the back. A lot of gang members. One part of me, the Holy Spirit at that time, I don't know something prom in my heart that asked me to stand up and respond to the auto call. But one part of me say cannot lie. You cannot lose face. No, you go, you go up. My people love you go go back to the whole general population. You got title one. No cannot your title cannot drop no. So I was struggling between there. So I stood up. I don't care. You know, every time I give in to so I stood up. I responded and they prayed for me and then God just touched me. So the tears just flow and flew. I couldn't understand because in, in my context, those days we shed blood, don't shed tears, you know, especially in that kind of environment. And then I just no, no tissue. I used my T-shirt to wipe. No. And then I felt I just said a simple prayer. I said, God, I don't know. I don't really know you, but I just give my life to you. I got nothing. I got no bank account, nothing, no education, just one life. I leave it to you. Speaker 1 Right. Speaker 5 And from that day onward, something filled inside me. You know, God didn't remove the addiction. No, God gave me a purpose, a belonging. And later on I discovered it was the love of God. Just saturate me. You know, the Bible says we should remove the heart of stone and give us, give me a heart of flesh. My heart was stone. You know, we can't, we don't cry this kind of thing. But that day it was like complete, you know, God transformed. Give me a heart transplant and, and, and from that day onwards, I feel that, you know, I want to give my life to serve God. Speaker 4 So for your case in the negative influence part, you have a status, right? You have a status but, but, but, but you chose to step out of that status that man has bestowed upon you that you have to live up to, to us the new status of say that I don't care anymore. I want to relax. I want to rest in God. You know, God's status for me is much more important, right, than any other human status that's bestowed upon me. I think similarly, if you look at the other way, not that one is negative, and this is very positive. Pastors can also be very positive influence, right? Yeah. But I think to a certain level, I think one of the realisation is that I, I am a child of God, right? That's my status. We are all children of God. So if I stand out here and you all choose to judge me, that's your pasa. That's your problem, right. Seriously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but but here I am. And just saying that, you know, I'm more bothered about what God thinks about me rather than what men thinks about me. And in that process, All right, by sharing the vulnerabilities, by sharing the, the, the real life that that I'm going through, All right, May you also bring hope because at the end of the day, the, the hope comes from God, not from any status, not from any position. Speaker 1 What is the biblical structure of, you know, dealing with these addictions? Speaker 4 I think the first thing is we need to acknowledge. We need to acknowledge that there is an issue, there is an addiction, All right? Without the first step of acknowledging it is you won't even have to start, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then the next is to break it up, break out of it with the power of God. All right, knowing that God's word has reminded us that there is power in his word, OK and it can be broken off LA right and then C will be to continuously count on God. You know continuously count upon him is not a one time thing. It's a journey. All right D will be to develop their new habits. I think it's important to after doing this, there needs to be new habits that replaces it. There needs to be new habits that that draws us away from those things. Like, for example, avoid going to Geelong, avoid going to. I don't know where else you went. Yeah. You know, there must be new habits, Am I right? Yeah. Yeah. ABCDE. OK. Next is embrace. You need embrace hope. Because there is hope. There's definitely hope one. All right. Yeah. The journey may be long, but there will always be a light at the end of the tunnel. And then finally, F will be family and friends. I really strongly believe this. Yeah. As much as there needs to be wisdom, all right, in sharing to who you want to share with, but I think that our family and our closest friends and our church friends needs to have that sense whereby we can trust each other and we must trust each other and we must help one another. I think that it needs to go down to that way. We are family. Yeah, at the end of the day. So ABCDF. Speaker 3 Yeah. Can I just add something to that pastor? I think I know of certain people who have certain addictions, right? And I don't think that all addictions can be overcome with community, church community. I think certain addictions will require you to seek professional help. Speaker 4 Oh yes. Speaker 3 Yeah. And so, I mean, although community is a good start, seeking professional help is as good as finding out what is the root 'cause is it a lack of like that sense of belonging, a lack of parental supervision, A lack of what? What is that root cause? And then community comes to bolster that support. Yeah. I just wanted to talk about the professional health because sometimes I feel like we can be too dependent on community and then we sort of like expect the community to to check up to be to check up on you, you know, But then like what Denise said is your responsibility as well. If you feel that, oh, my addiction to whatever is is a bit much and after you acknowledge and you want to break out of it and your community is you don't expect that from your community. You know that much. Go and seek professional help. Speaker 4 Yeah, good point. They're in the Gila. Go get help. Get help. Yeah. ABCDFG then. OK, Kai, hey. Speaker 3 Honey and butter. Speaker 4 They never say cut. Speaker 1 No, that's OK. Speaker 3 Never mind. Yeah, honey and butter flavoured line. Speaker 1 Cut, hey, cut, cut this. Speaker 3 Oh, cut. Speaker 1 This. That's what he meant. Speaker 4 Oh no, no, no, no, actually I meant that they haven't said cut so so we still carry on it. Speaker 1 Yeah, that does. Yeah, it's OK. Speaker 3 Thank God bless. Speaker 4 Thank you, you got my specs lady. Speaker 1 Yeah, you can.