Breaking down the Loire’s growth w/ Pierre-Jean Sauvion, InterLoire

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Today, we're gonna unpack the rise of the law of alley with Pierjeanne Savion, president of Inter-Lawr's Communication Commission. Pierjeanne, welcome to the show. - Hello everybody. We're very happy to be here with you today. So I'm really, really excited about expression all the good things about the law, environment and the law and the wine and the Abutsa de la Lawra atmosphere. - Yeah, I think there's a lot going on in the law of these days. Can you please give us a brief overview of your background? - My background is quite easy and the force generation of wine maker. So the story started the early 1930s with my great-grandfather who became a producer and then a wine merchant in the Muscat region. And after my great-grandfather, he wins to my grandfather, my father, uncle and then me. So I'm quite a lucky guy because I never has to myself what I'm gonna be, a doctor from the one driver or lawyer. Now, I knew I'm gonna be in the wine business, making it, setting it, drinking it or looking at mine because I'm doing the three of them. Drinking, selling and taking it. (laughing) - Well, you definitely have a French accent, but also like your English sounds a little British-inflected. Did you study in the UK or anything? - No, I've studied my English a little bit in Ireland in Cork, then I went to Australia and then I went to California, actually. And that's where I studied English, but I'm the French. - Okay. (laughing) It's merger of all those accents. And so for people who aren't familiar with inter-thorough, what is it and what does it do? - Inter-thorough, it's a wine concierge. It's a group of the wine merchant and the wine rures. So it's roughly 2,200 people, I would say, a state in the Loire, and that 42,000 hectares spread out from the Muscadet towards the Turin area. And that's roughly 250 million bottles sold per year across 170 different countries. And the concierge is this group of people and we are working together for three big things. First of all, developing the area, promoting the area and creating some tools to be able to look at the market, to look at what we should do in the future. So it's a group of people working together to develop the area. - So it's like a regional marketing body, which most regions have, there isn't a separate one. This is the main one for the Choirs. - Exactly. You've got a big one, which is quite a concierge of the French wine and then every single region as his own council and developing the quality control, the R&D development and so on. And everybody is having his own region. And I'm the president of the communication for the Loire. - And you said something interesting that it's both the growers and the merchants for into the Loire. Is that common or when you say merchants, are you talking about like a negotiating who buys wine and sells it or like an actual retailer exporter distributes a lot? - Like you said, it's the growers and the wine buyers who buy the wine and sell it after. There is no retailers in the Antara. - Okay, but they buy it and sell it after meaning they buy it and then put their own label on it. And then? - Yeah, sell it. - Negotiate. - Actually, Negotiate as many different jobs you've got in the Negotiate business. You could do, you could also have your own property and be your ruler. On top of it, you buy berries, most of the finish wine. If you buy berries and most of the sleeve, you're doing your own wine and your own, I would say it's signature wine and then you label it and sell it under your own brand. So that's our Negotiate business. So if you usually get the three different phases of the wine and street, meaning that growers, wine makers and sellers. - Got it, okay. So the lore valley seems to be having a moment sitting here in fall of 2026. What are the overall sales trends for the region over the last, say, five or 10 years? - I have to say that in this challenging moment, Zuluah is having a style online for us because if you look back to the 15 years, the growth is still there. If you compare, for example, 2024 to 2025 because 2026 it's not over yet. So the 2024, 2024 compared to 2025, the business has been grossed by four persons in terms of volume and almost five persons in terms of value. So Zuluah in a difficult moment is definitely Z area where things are happening. We have a book in the law, which is the plan for 2030, the objective of this plan is having 30% of our business for export. And today we are roughly at 2021 person. So there's still some works to be done, but we are in the way of. So there's many things inside this plan. There's a plan for the export market, that the plan for environmental things. There's a plan for, I would say that what we call the QS machine, the social and the quality and the respect for environment and for people, but there's many things inside this plan, but that's our guideline to 2030. - And when you say export is that export outside of France or export outside of the EU? - France. - 'Cause I guess I would have thought that export was a much bigger proportion of the lower business than only 2021 or 22%. - No, no, it's your right, no, a 21 person is the export outside of the border of France. Because I don't know if you know that the French confusion is roughly 95% of French wine. So definitely people are drinking our own production and on average, the export market for French wine is 19% so the law is doing it a little bit better than what overall the French market is doing. But there's still some business to be done because between 21% and 30% there's still nine points to begin so every single day is a working day. - White wine is doing particularly well, just generally, globally. How have whites of the region fared versus the red? - Not meaning that red is not important, but production wise in the work, definitely when you're talking about the law, you're talking about white and rosé and at the end red. So roughly the production in the law, and if you put the bubbles inside, it's even bigger because most of the bubble are white because it's 90% of the production is white and 10% is rosé. So if you put all everything together, white is definitely our color. And yes, as you say that in the global market, in the wine market, the color, which is suffering the most is red. So obviously the law is not suffering as the other region just because the white and rosé. So it does expand also the good numbers in the law. Not only because we are good, but also because we've got the right color. - Yeah, right, right. - Well, you said that the law as a whole, at least from 24 to 25, grew 4% was the white growing more than four and the red less or was it about equal for both? - No, the grows for red is more like one or two persons, but definitely the big, big growth is coming from the bubbles because the bubbles is almost 20% growth. So overall the rosé or the stable or plus than we are plus, white would be something like a few percentage, two or three percent. But definitely it's a bubble of different makings and numbers because it's growing by 20%. So bubble of definitely making the number for the law. And also because the red is a tiny, tiny production and it's mostly driven by the French consumption. - Oh, interesting, okay. And the bubbles, this is mostly like Cremont de l'Or or Sparkling Vouvre, what's driving the growth of bubbles? - All of them, pretty much all of them, but definitely, he came on is Z1 just because it is way bigger than the others, just to give you an idea. Production speaking, Cremont de l'Or, it's four times the production of Vouvre. So that's just the idea. And then you go back to Somia, which is also driven by French market. Yeah, almost French market. And Cremont is one of the big things and is definitely taking us to gain some market share just because also people are drinking more and more bubbles. So, and bubbles is really on the roots of the law because bubbles have been growing and has been, we've been doing bubbles in the law from the early 30s. So it's not something that we just brand new launched. It's on our DNA. - Right, right. And well, at least in the US, the growth of bubbles has largely been driven by like Perseco and somewhat lower end, if you wanna call it that, of the bubbles are more casual side of the market. And a lot of that, I think, I don't have any data on this, but is the use of, of bubbles in cocktails like an apparel spritz in things of that nature, like do you see the same usage of the bubbles coming out of the water? Is it more for mixing or is it more consumption on its own or some combination? I think it's a combination because it's more driven by the countries because you've got some countries and I will take an example which is one of the biggest ones is Germany and Germany drink bubbles. The drinks act whatever the drink, Kremal the drink, Champagne the drink, but the drink bubbles and they also make a lot of bubbles. Though it's on the identity of the country to drink bubbles from midday to midnight, I would say. And if you look at the French market it would be more driven by something like the move from specific evaporative to bubbles and then I think it's also a question of generation because more and more now it's like a celebration time. By 15 years I would say 20 years ago, the wine was something like you put on the table and you have lunch with, you add dinner with, but now it's more like a nappierative time and bubbles are definitely the profile of wine, if I would say wine for bubbles because it's a specific wine, it's a profile of wine that definitely suits the aperitif and aperitif is getting more and more popular because people are more going by snacking, adding a plate of cheese or a plate of whatever delicatessen and it's quite easy to open up a bubble. I think also behind the bubbles there's an easy way of drinking. I mean that sometimes we make the world of wine a little bit too complex probably with the vintage, with the AOP, with where it has been grown and how it has been grown and if it was wooded on the wooded and so on and at some point the new generation was not feeling probably comfortable by all this history and this backpack and you don't have all this history and backpack with bubbles. That all is that you open the bubble, we've got the bubble inside your cheese and you drink it and you don't need to explain the whole story. So I think it's more an easy drinking way of, yeah, a little way of drinking and that's also the reason why bubbles are trendy also because you don't need to know, you just need to enjoy. Interesting, yeah well the younger generations are definitely more occasion-based drinkers that they would just want to know if it fits the occasion versus all the details and you mentioned something before where you know I think the volume growth was 4% but the value growth was 5% is that driven by bubbles are more expensive on average than still wine or was it everything is going up in price? It's pretty much everything is going up in price, definitely bubbles because bubble is a little bit more expensive and Kema is definitely more expensive because at the really beginning of the story Kema Delwai is an ampicked bi-regulation, Kema get it to keep it one years in the cellar and it costs money to keep wine for 12 months when you know that you're picking the berries and two years after you've got to sell it. So obviously Kema is a little bit more expensive but on average every single wine is getting a little bit more premium but not super premium. When I said premium in Delwai we are still a really good value for money. Obviously there is some icon in Delwai and they are really expensive because they are more than wine, they are more on the luxury business of what we could do at wine but on average we are a good value for money that I would say now people are not drinking volume because they're not drinking every single there 10 glasses of wine but now they want to make it a peak and they will buy a good bottle are they going to get a good glass of wine but maybe three times a week are just buy one bottle the week and they're okay if it's going to be one bottle it's going to be a good bottle so the consumer is getting I would say premium so they just follow the trend so in Delwai we are not on this mass market because in Delwai we don't add the mass market wine is not coming from Delwai it's it was in the middle or almost bringing but the mass market if you want to I'm not talking about good or bad I'm just thinking about volume-wise you can't find it in Delwai in Delwai we've got a lot of different appellation so at the end of the day it makes volume obviously yeah we're talking about I say they're 250,000 pounds so expose you need to make wine at the end of the day but it's small appellation signed by side who make the volume at the end so if someone wants to launch a massive brand with me in cases overall yeah it won't be in Delwai anyway so that's also the reason so everybody's getting up and up and up a little bit so that's what I'm saying it's premiumizing but not super premium we we probably ends up at super premium I don't know when but probably yeah that's the goal right well sweet wines are a very classic style in the lore but they aren't that popular in the current environment how are the sweet wines doing that's another thing about Delwai, Delwai is quite having a good time because you can't say I don't like what because what I've got bubbles white rosé red medium sweet sweet eco-ro bubbles we sweet you know you've got pretty much everything so you can't say I don't lie to us just because you didn't find your Lois wine but there's something somewhere a one you will suit you and that's the what makes sometimes the word complex because it's really a big family but at the end of the day we have a fondamenta you know what I mean a basement in Delwai and the edited the rooms of the three F fresh, pretty and friendly a wine from Delwai needs to be fresh, pretty and friendly and I will answer your question about sweet wine just because in these rooms of fresh, sturdy and friendly fresh that is a definition of what should be a Lois wine and if you're talking about sweet wine or off dry sweet wine which is quite known in Delwai as a fulveré of dry or the cadanet d'Anglou or rosé d'Anglou which are naturally of dry profile we bring this tenderness and this softness to the pellets but balance with the freshness of the Lois the acidity of the Lois if you're talking about the cadanet d'Anglou it's coming from the cadanet front the acidity from the freshness of the cadanet front if you're talking about fulveré you're coming with the tension and the intensity of the chena so you always balance the sweetness with the acidity and that's easy I think the reason why in Delwai even sweet wine are not trendy as crazy but if somebody wants something a little bit off or sweet they will go to Delwai thanks to this balance because the attack would be soft and rounder but the finish would be drier thanks to the acidity and the acidity would completely dry the sugar so yeah Lois and sugar are quite well known for thanks with his balance right right well we know that Taylor Swift's love of sensor help propel that category and even a lot of the adjacent Sauvian Blanc regions to growth how much impact do you think that actually I do know that you're in terrorized is it's from the center which is not in terror but whatever if you look at the world of wine the big big grave variety is Chardonnay people dream Chardonnay and that's still the number one white speaking grave variety but one of the berries which is having a really great time in terms of close is Sauvian Blanc and if you're talking about Sauvian Blanc definitely it is a lot easy one and it's easy easy to understand the Sauvian Blanc if it's an igp Sauvian Blanc if you know if it's a two ends Sauvian Blanc or whatever in it to get what we called a water feeding regulation to get the right maturation that's what people are looking for when they're looking for a nice Sauvian Blanc why because they want the the slavery gooseberries very nice bouquet of what is a Sauvian Blanc because it's an easy grave variety to recognize it smells good it's really easy but in the same time if you are not in the right place the right place is different issues are well I'm not very objective and to be quite honest with you but I have to say that because I know I've got a lot of wine in my vein so but yeah technically speaking to get this perfect maturation you need this water feeding regulation it means like it's just an example but if you have one milliliters of water every day the Sauvian Blanc needs to get this one millilitre every day it's not three zero four zero and makes you an average of one no it's every single day it's a drop of water and having this drop of water every day gave you this balance of not an heavy alcohol wine like a 14 but 12 sometimes whoever not have he doesn't have doesn't matter with 12 person nice freshness necessity this fuel expression of what people are looking for for Sauvian Blanc with this brownness and that is Sauvian Blanc in the lower cool climate so fresh pretty friendly with this limestone soil terwa this limestone soil terwa will help you to get this freshness and this water feeding regulation because it will work like a sponge if it's raining the soil will absorb the water and then give back to the vines some humidity and moisture every day and give you this regulation and that's the reason why if you want a Sauvian Blanc it needs to be a Sauvian Blanc from the lower definitely so yeah when people want a nice Sauvian Blanc it's definitely that's going to be Sauvian Blanc from the lower and that the reason why Sauvian Blanc in the lower is getting iron demand right well I guess I was curious to like it was Taylor Swift's endorsement catalyst at all for the marketing and sales of those wines like has Sansaier grown more than Sauvian Blanc in general over the last few years since that happened definitely yes and it twists like every single wine and I would say a famous people leave I've got no idea because I'm not a big fan of music at I don't think you're wrong with status, we have to, it's not a, against of, I love there, actually. But if you have all the other year, we drink a muskete tomorrow and mix, mixing on the Instagram and then people would drink muskete. So I think it would be definitely, you will, every single appellation when you have the face behind it. So it makes every single character and every single writers and every single singers and every single model behind the law and the law will be the king everywhere. So, but it was, yeah, it was kind of a luck because it was not made on purpose and it was a luck. So sometimes things happen. It's my great run, so it's always told me that it's a product, be professional and a tiny part of luck. Luck is always a big, big part of success, yeah. But was there any like catalyst when she sort of saw it that you actually, was it meaningful enough for as a region? You could see the sales spike of Sanser after that happened or was it just normal, look like normal growth? It was a pike and then grows, go back to normal. But this region has been always big for, the US has been always big for, for Sanser anyway. So actually, the US is for, if you're talking about numbers, the US is still always between number one and number two in terms of the country for the law line. So obviously, it definitely helps, but yeah, the US is definitely a big, big market for us. Got it. What have been the other major catalyst of growth for the region? So, yeah, there was a bubbles. Behind the bubbles, you definitely have the Shana because the Shana, the Rev I T Shana is quite a, maybe a geek Rev I T. You know what I mean? That people that somebody likes, like a bar man like when they want to make a cocktail or whatever. So Shana has been having quite a nice trend. And you're talking about Shana and Blanc, the white variety, right? Because I, okay, I thought I heard you say red. I'm sorry, sorry for my English, but they are the Shana Blanc. And we have Vouvret en jou blanc, Cotto du Léon, bubbles are made with Shana. This Rev I T definitely helps the region, so the bubbles, Rev I T like Shana. The other Rev I T for red, even if it's a small category, we do have some growth with red. Because I think that there's something with the light wine, there's a trend with light wine. People are a little bit, I don't know if they're tired of, if they want to drink something lighter in, in terms of alcohol, maybe. And they want something lighter. It's funny because when you talk about everybody in the law, and I've been, as I told you, I've been traveling in many different countries, even if it was for setting wine or if it was for making wine. And everybody was talking about his little block on a cool climate region, on the altitude and so on. To make this kind of a cool climate, cab or cool climate, Sauvignon or cool climate, Chardonnay. And on our DNA, the wall bar is a cool climate area. So all the wine for wine are definitely in this trend of mostly low alcohol level, driven by fruits, and not a navy big massive alcohol-y wine and whatever the category of white rosé are red. So less alcohol on average, and the others, the balance, the drinkability of the law. And definitely, I was talking about the light red or trendy. Now people want something like a, they call it a glue-glue wine. Like wine driven by flavors, light and then, soft and tender. You drink it, you like it, you buy the bottle, you damp it and you buy another one. And it doesn't mean like it's a petit vin or a cheap wine, it just means like it's an easy wine to drink. Like we say, like we say, glue-glue wine. And then obviously, yeah, law wine has this identity in terms of red to be very sympathetic, easy to drink, low alcohol. And yeah, people are into. So again, it's kind of the stuff online, bubble, white, rosé and light red. And that's exactly what we are producing. So we are lucky. Okay, so the overall consumption trends or the style trends are boosting the law. Do you think that style trend of lighter reds is directly correlated with alcohol? Or are they two different things? Like could you have a glue-glue wine that was 14 or 15% alcohol? And like it would just be as popular? Or you think low alcohol is core to that sort of style and trend? I think it's better if you could crop the chew, low and glue and glue-glue. And we are the cross of the two in the law, but that there's two things that's definitely in a trend, which is a low alcohol, because it feel like it's else here. If it's less alcohol, it's else here for your body. And for sure, if it's a 12% or 11.5% wine, we are in the US, that doesn't matter. In French, you have to say, 0.9 grams per liter in terms of the blood consumption, but you don't have that in the US. So you could drink a bottle without any problem when it's a red or a wine, which is quite good. So yeah, and the thing which is really interesting is it's important for me, because we didn't change the wine from the law. The trend came to us. So we didn't change our roots and what we were, but the trend is naturally driven to the law. So the reason why I said we were lucky, because we didn't change anything. We were just being what we used to be for ever. And consumer, I would say, knew us for years and years and years, but they just now said, oh, yeah, that was good. It was, it was good. Let's go back to the law. And one big example is the muscade, muscade as being a very, very, very famous wine with a massive notoriety, and it was sales everywhere, which is still true. And he's getting back on track right now, because people are getting back to muscade, and they say today that, yeah, let's try muscade again, because it's definitely what I want. Low alcohol, flowers, fresh, not heavy. It's just perfect. Goes well with every single seafood. Seafood is LC also. So everything is linked together. So there's some wine like muscade, which is back on track. And that was a wine which were definitely a highlight 30 years ago, and he's getting back today. Wow, yeah. So there's all these global consumption trends around what people are looking for with wine, and the law fits that perfectly. How much of the success of the law is these sort of broader regional trends versus any specific producers that are doing something special? Are certain producers really experiencing outsized growth or really establishing themselves as household names? I know you can't pick favorites, but it could, you know, throw up. I think it's going to be a perspective of-- No, I'm joking, yeah. Because I'm a producer also, and a negotiation. But no, I must say that, and it's not because I didn't want to answer. But something that definitely, on our nature in the law, is we're quite-- I don't like to say that, but we're quite young. I mean, that law is not with this big establishment behind. So you could definitely try a lot of them in the law. For example, alternative recipients like Ken, or the bagging box, or the PET, or whatever. It's not something that has been blocked in the law. Everything was potential. So you could see in the law a lot of different flacco. But when I say flacco, it's with a massive S at the end. Ken, bag, PET, carton bottles, everything, screw cap, or whatever. Just because we were quite lucky to be quite, I would say, young and not this massive establishment who lets us be able to explore all the possibilities that you have in the wine. And that's what people are doing in the law. So it's more like those people who does explore will succeed. There's many people who are really famous because they're the succeeded in making some can, or some people are succeeding because they are doing some wine without SO2 or whatever. And that's really something that does happen in the law because people in the law are really people who experience. So that's for me the big thing. And then you've got stories. And in these stories, you've got one guy, which is the leader in Korea. And then you've got one guy which's got to be the leader in Brazil. And then one producer would be a massive guy in China. And so on because at the end of the day, you always have your bucket, I would say, your bucket exports where, again, part of the leg at some point does help you. Yeah. But is there any individual or individual winery that has kind of established the name of the law or a specific region into the law? Like, for example, a Robert Mondavi in Napa or Eduardo Chadwick of Chile or Laura Catena, right? Kind of, is there a person like that that is driven? No, and again, it's not because I don't want to name anybody because I don't care. It's more like a game. It's quite a young vineyard. And if you look at people who really invest in the vineyard in the past, they went into some big names, appellation name, or I would say, big region name. So they didn't even, they never get to the law. I'm sure now, those people look on the mirror and say, I should have been invest in the law, but at this age, invest in the other region. So, noire, today, it's quite new. But what you see is quite interesting because it's quite easy to invest in the law. I mean, that the acres are not that expensive. So you can't, you can't come in the law and start a new business or to cover a family business or whatever because it's not really expensive and because also there is also a story to be made. So we could see that there is a lot of what we call the new producer. It doesn't mean that it's a young one, but it could be a young people or an old guy because he sells his company and changes the job and whatever. But we see more and more people coming to the law and change the job and make a new life in the law for the three big reasons. Because the law is the future, because you need water, you need a cool climate, and that's what we are. Law is good in terms of production. because our wine are good. And then at the end, I tell you, it's easier. And let's say it's easy, but it's easier to invest in the room because the cost of land is lower on average. So your question, we'd have the answer in 10 years time. Okay, we'll have to redo it in 10 years. Exactly. And we will see Matt Riccardo would be coming in the room and start a winery in Muscareo, or whatever, in Vulaio, or you know. That's right. Adicuracity. What is sort of the range of cost of land in the war? That would be 21,000, 21,000 euros. One hectare for 21,000 euros. That would be one hectare. That's pretty, pretty inexpensive. Yeah, you could go from 6,000 to 85 or whatever. But I would be guessing roughly 20 to 25. So I'm confident with those numbers. But yeah, it's still a fair bit of money, but it's doable. Yeah, for sure. So outside of the issues, the wine industry has been having specifically with declining consumption and all that. The macroeconomic environment has also been quite turbulent over the last couple of years, especially with US-driven tariffs and oil price increases. How has that impacted the war? As everybody, as everybody in the back in the war, again, we have the same effect. So I would say that if you're talking about the price increasing for the US, for example, everybody will move that. So a bottle from whatever Italy or a bottle from Baaldo, a bottle from Rao, a bottle for everything, they all moved up in the same time. So actually, if you were expensive, you were still expensive. If you were not expensive, you're still not expensive. So on average, the market was still tough, but it was the same for us. So it doesn't, when I say that, I'm not saying that it's good, but it doesn't affect pretty much everybody. So we were just just moving, everybody was just moving together with the same problem. So we're just facing the same difficulty in the past and in the future. On top of it, the world of wine is definitely facing some difficulties. One of the big difficulties for the war is having some wine, actually. Some region are facing some trouble with stock, and we are facing trouble to not having stock. That's our problem. Just because again, with the climate change and so on, one of the big thing for us is the frost problem. And if you look back to the 10 years time, we've been facing at least full, massive, massive problem of production. And I remember my grandfather, Tony, one thing. He told me that you will have it in your carier, one disaster. I mean, a massive one. It's nothing like minus five or minus ten, but he said, you will be facing one massive disaster in 55, 60 years time of working. I'm not working for 60, for 60 years, or I hope so, I'm not at the end. And I'm facing right now for almost the past 20 years, eight disaster. My name is disaster, it's minus 70%. So in the law, and it's just because we're not heading this kind of on average, we have, you know, those four seasons, like a winter spring, summer, autumn, with its temperature, temperature. And if you look back, just the vintage 2026, which has been very phenomenal, on the fifth of January, I was under the snow, which is not quite usual in the law, but was flowing on the fifth of January. On the tenth of January, we were overflowed. It was raining and raining and raining and raining until mid-May. So just to give you an idea, in not far as a Shino area, there was some vines which were completely overflowed. People were going to turn the vine on canoeing, so really overflowed. And then it turns to mid-May, till the 22nd of August, to dessert. It was an Atacama dessert in the law. So in less than eight months, we were facing those big, massive things. So the problem is production is growing like up and down. And that's our problem in the law. It's not, it's the market. Yeah, the market is stuck, and every single day is if the batch of to sell a bottle of wine. But I mean that we don't have to, just because, for example, in two and this year, we're going to make a not even 50% of the production. And two ends of in your law is on fire, in terms of demand, but we have 50% down. So that's our problem. The problem for the right would be more like, be able to stabilize the, I would say, not the production because you can't do anything with mother nature, but be able to get a volume available. So stuck plus production to be able to please every single market today. That's going to be the challenge for the lights. Be able to, to please every market every day because when you lose your market, to regain the market takes 25 years. Right. And so how do producers think about addressing those challenges? Are they planting more vines so that, you know, they have more stock in the years that are really bad or how do they financially survive that? What we are trying to do is it's like to open a book with a white page. Say, okay, let's think that everything is possible, which is not true, but just think about everything is possible and redo the story, which is quite difficult in front because we got a lot of administration and rules. And that's why we love French because we're complex. And I, you know, I'm stupid as a French guy. But let's restart the story. And if there was no rules, what could we do? And that's what we need to be termed right now for the next generation. So things would be like, could we cover the vine for shadow? Could we water the vine? Because at some point, not every year, but at some point, some vintage, we need to water the vine. Could we put some, I don't know, it's, it's a, it's not, I braid it, but it's a new diet also, which are the disease cuts affect those great viety. So they, you don't put any spraying on the vine because they're proof, meet you proof, but try these proofs. New grape varieties. Yeah. So you've got some of them like a floyal or whatever. So it's this and those great viety, we try and we put them and we open the books to say, okay, we can put them as an experiment out for Duksheng. Then change some specifics like change the root stock because back in the age, because we have to say that the vine that we are growing right now, they were planting 40 years ago and 40 years ago, the climate was not the same. So change sometime, the, the specific to change the American roots because some American roots were planted because they need to lower down the yield and getting from more quality wine, but today it's not a question of yield, it's a question of water. So change this. So if water is like, like I said, this year, 2026, it was pouring water and we overflowed it for almost three months. Baby stores is water to be able to use this water during summer. So that's what we are thinking today to be able to produce wine for the next 25 years. So new vines, new root stock, new roots like an umbrella on the vine because it's going to be too sunny for at some point or not. So with everything a little thing because we won't be having one thing. It would be thousands of thousands of little elements together who will help us to be able to be there for the next four generation. So that's the plan for today. Interesting. Yeah. And so you talked about from the production side, all the elements, are there other key priorities for the lower region over the next couple years? I would say water, definitely the water would be one of the key things. I'm not saying that dam water means that pumped the water from the dam water, but when the water is coming from naturally from the sky, be able to store it to reuse it. That's going to be one of the key things is water and probably remake or redo our job sexy to make the new generation wants to be a wine maker and negotiate. Now they all wants to be a YouTuber or whatever, which is good, you know, it's not a, for me, I don't have any. Or an AI worker over here. And it really makes them dream about being the wine industry. That's the two big things. The rest it's going to be technique, it's going to be working, it's going to be other work and so on without any problem. But we need water because it's a vegetable. So we're definitely need water and we need people behind and the new generation. That's the big things for me. Interesting. And that thing is going to be easier. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that helps us all around if we can make wine cool again, right? And then people want to work in it. When I say that's make you definitely say something very important to me is we need to make the wine cool again, because I think we make the wine way too much complex. For me, we need to make it easy, not simple, but easy. That's really for me what we need to do. It's make the wine easy to drink, not complex. Well, yeah. And it's for the right people and the right places. Some people want the complexity, some people want it easy and it all should be available for everybody, right? Not everyone's going to be a collector who wants to geek out on everything and not everyone's going to want to be just someone who goes for the occasion and wants something white. You have a question for a boat trip for fishy and you don't want to open a first growth of Burgundy during this. If you want it do it. Yeah. That doesn't matter. But if you want to have a easy, rosy, easy to drink on a can, yeah, we have it also do it. And the same people when they finish their day trip for fishing, they will open a very nice bottle of cream which has been aged 25 months sure that with the extra bright dosage whatever. And that's going to be the same people, but make them having a glass of wine for every single hour of the day. That's my objective. Yeah, that would be good. Well, Pierre-Jean, we'd like to wrap each episode on a personal note. And we're curious what has been your most memorable winery visit and why? I would probably guess when I was working in Australia for two reasons. I went to Australia and I was on the Western Australia, so it was a long way from home, first of all. And I really enjoy the way of everything is possible. Because I was, I'm still a French guy, growing in a French country with having the same history, which I do love. I'm back on my family day off, so I do like that, but I remember talking with those people saying that, "Yeah, we're going to harvest the ristling tomorrow." And I say, "Okay, ristling in Denmark, then we're done." It was really for the thousand Western Australia, and say, "Okay, why not? What are we doing?" And he said, "Everything. Today, what the plan?" He said, "We can do everything. We will do what we want to do." And this possibility, that was the first time I've been, it was for me something quite brand new. Because for me, you have, in France, you have to have a date of being able to harvest. Then you have rules in terms of alcohol, you have rules in terms of everything. And then I arrive in a country where I say, "Yeah, whatever, we do whatever, whatever we want." As long as it's good, we're doing whatever. Oh, and that's why my first exercise of trying to be open mind, there was more the idea of being able to explore without any frontier, and I really do love it. And at the end of the day, to be honest, this ristling from really thousand down south, which is quite cool for Australia, because I was thinking about Australia, which was really, really warm and warm area. And we were doing a Sauvignon Blanc and a ristling in the Pemberton Denmark, in a cool climate, again, so that the link with the Loire, with a very, very, very nice expression, and fresh fruits, Sauvignon Blanc and Ristling, which is nice acidity, and I really enjoyed it. And it was kind of a funny, because I was doing a ristling and a Sauvignon Blanc at the Loire style, in Australia. So that's probably the way I loved it. So that is a really good remember for me, was the possibility, and in the same time, I've been doing the Loire things in another country. So at the end of the day, I was doing exactly the thing I was against when I came to Australia. Say, "I don't like roots, I don't like rivers and specifics, and at the end of the day, I did exactly the same, but in Australia." So, well, thank you so much for sharing all the interesting details and how the Loire business has really been changing over the last few years. It was really educational. Thank you very much, and you know, it's a, if you don't grow up, really believe in it. If you don't like Loire, it's just because you never try your Loire wine. There is a bottle of Loire wine somewhere, which is just waiting for you, try it, and you will adopt it. That's the Loire idea. That's a good one. Thank you so much. Hey listeners, if you love the show, support it by buying a show notes book. They not only compile two years of episodes, but also organizes them into themes for better learning. They can be an inspiration to listen to or relisten to an episode, or provide a quick reference of the key learnings from a show. Go to xchatto.com and click on the store page for easy links to buy. Thanks for listening. We'd love for you to subscribe, rate, and give a review on iTunes. Or wherever you get your podcast. Until next time, cheers.