Breaking Down the BUSINESS of LAW | Bourbon of Proof vs. Mary Ellen Murrah

I mean, it's kind of wild out there right now, isn't it? I feel like there is so much firm consolidation happening. There's so much with what's happening in Arizona and the ABS. So I feel like the future kind of looks like how do we either prepare our firm to be the best it can be or prepare our firm to be sold to someone else. And a lot of it depends on the size of the firm, too. A smaller firm may need different technology, may need different operating procedures that are like, you know, new level, new devil. Every time you-- New level, new devil? Yeah, every time you just trademark that. Hey, guys, you get that? New level, new devil. Got it. Welcome to this episode of Burbin Approve where we interview those who have been both successful at law and life. We have on in New York City live from Burbin and Branch. Hey, everybody, it's given up for Mary Ellen Morales. Here it for-- Woo-hoo! We also have on a very special esteemed New York royalty trial lawyer, Mike Rose from Rose Hatch. Or is it Hatch Rose? Hatch Rose. You got to hold it right here. Hatch Rose. When can we change that to Rose Hatch instead of Hatch Rose? Is that like a thing? How about the Rose Law firm? Ah, there we go. There we go. Well, we usually have our co-host, but he's MIA, but the show must go on. Brando, can you please pass out the Legends gear to all of our things we have met Yankees? Uh-oh. Ah, there he is. All right. And our esteemed co-host, Maro Fiori Jr., who is-- You already started without me? Yeah, we do these. We were looking for you. You're gone. I was outside. It's over. Sorry. No, you're good, man. We're almost done. Yeah. Wow. Hey, you know, this is what happens. It's the streets of Manhattan, dude. It's cool to just people watch, you know? Yeah, that's what I bet he was doing. All right, so Mary Ellen, we start over the poor. So, Will, where's our bourbon steward? Will. Where do we lose him? Yeah. Ah, there we go. So, we like him so much as the bourbon steward in Charleston that he's now a part of the show. So, welcome to-- well, what is this? Whiskey will himself. Yeah. So we get some tin cup here. So this is coming out of Colorado. Tin cup is kind of paying homage to the miners that were back then, and it was the way of keeping warm tickets, so they have a little small, little thimble, tin thimble, and that's how they would take their shots. Um, I, uh, Low Birdie told me that you have some rescue puppies. I do. I do. I do. They heavily work with a, uh, nonprofit that rescues dogs. Oh, how cool. So this was a nice little link for you on that one. Look at that. Will-- Will does his homework on his dance. Yes, I'm impressed. And we also wanted to discuss, you know, your-- your dad doing the steel work for the Baltimore stadiums, and, you know, tin and steel. Steel's a lot stronger. Tin can or could not be involved in being a Steelers fan is the, uh, Lord's greatest, um, team. But Mike here is not only on the show because he's a cool dude, but he's also a client of VISTA consulting your company. Absolutely. Yes. We love Mike. Mike, why do you love her? What does she do that's so great for you? I mean, let's do-- let's give your testimony alive on the end. Yeah, let's hear it, Mike. Oh, God. Okay. That was our first date, first of all. So-- So we started working with VISTA about three years ago, two years ago. Our firm pre-COVID was probably five lawyers, maybe 20, 25 employees, and in the last three years, now the personal injury practice is 20 to 25 lawyers and about 100 employees. Wow. So, we went from being a small business and just hoping for the best, and now it's a real business. And so, VISTA has taught us and continues to teach us how to operate like a business. Well, this is to Mary Ellen, who's going to teach us all about running the business of law. Thank you very much. Cheers. Cheers, guys. Cheers. Cheers. Also, Tin Cup is the name of a Kevin Costner sports movie. You know, Kevin Costner's known for his sports movies. Tin Cup is not one of his more well-known ones, but it's a great movie if you haven't seen it. You can never go wrong with it, Kevin Costner sports film. So one of the questions I wanted to ask you, you know, you talked about being in the choir in high school, and you said you had to come out so many times, it feels like you got to say all these things. You have this beautiful pin on right here. So you're an advocate for the community just by being yourself on top of being a business owner. You've also had, I mean, you've exited, right? You've exited it out of the space. Well, how does that work? I mean, that was, he was, we were doing the show notes. We were just so interested to hear the story of how that happens. The story of how, which, what happens? The latter one, how you're able to exit the space out of, essentially, cell or get acquired. So, I worked for 17 years for a large case management company. Ultimately, was president of the company. What, what's one, which one? Needles case management software. Needles, he, I don't know. I've heard of it. They're now neos, right? They're now neos. Yeah, so I was there when it was the original, like the OG needles, and we got acquired by private equity at the time. And it was, I think a really good lesson for me in staying true to who you are, living your values. You know, this was my baby for 17 years. This was something that I helped grow and cultivate. I loved the people there. I loved the people who worked for me and who I worked for. And private equity coming in, it's a hard pill to swallow. I think it can work. If you're aligned in values, it did not work for me. And it was a really hard thing to say, hey, this thing that I grew and helped grow and was a big part of, now I'm walking away from this. So how long did you last after private equity came in until you-- So I had to sign an agreement that I would stay for a year, and I stayed for exactly a year. Wow. And then I left and came to Vista. And I think oftentimes the universe gives us a nice soft landing. And Vista was the nice soft landing. And everybody who works at Vista is good, down to Earth, solid, stock kind of people. And I feel like the clients that we work with reflect that. And oftentimes, you know, as a business, you attract the things that you put out there. And so I really feel like we have attracted a really amazing group of clients that understand what we do, buy into what we do, are willing to put in the work. Because that's the hard part, right? I mean, because if somebody hires Vista to be part of their consulting, like managing that Vista's coaching, all those types of things, like what are the deliverables you ask of your clients? I mean, they probably have to come up with set deliverables too, like how does that work? So we typically survey our clients before we come on site and ask a variety of questions about the culture and how you're handling things. And then we come on site and we interview their team and the owners and get pretty deep and have some tough conversations with them. And we generate a report from that. That's kind of like a report card. It goes through all those areas of the firm that are the business of practicing law and says, hey, here's what we see, the good, the bad, the ugly. And here's how we think you can fix it. And we can hold your hand. Here's the blueprint. We can hold your hand through it. But we can't do all of that work for you. Your team has to buy into that work, has to set your leaders up for success, has to take the reports that we put together, look through them with us, really be invested in their own success. Because it's easy to have the blueprint. It's hard to do the work, right? >> But I mean, how many clients do you consult for at a time? It's got to be very intimate. It seems like- >> It is very intimate. And so we have about six full-time consultants on our team. Each one of them has anywhere from a couple to eight or so clients. The scalability of it is we can't have a million clients because it is a very intimate kind of process. And you know Mike, I mean, your team is very involved with your consultant, who is not me by the way. >> That's why I said it's our first date. >> But it's very hard like wrangling lawyers or personalities, especially trial lawyers like Mike Barrow and I all are. So it's hard to make us think like business people, right? To make that transition. So Mike, what was it like for you whenever- because you had to have that moment where it's like, shit, I got to stop practicing law every day and start to like listen to Mary Ellen. >> Yeah, so really for us, it's about having the right people to execute. So for me, Amanda Lyons right there, who is our managing attorney. Is she going to come in for a guest for now? I think it's the appropriate time. >> She's shaking her head. No, but I feel like ask your consultant. >> Have it. >> Ask your consultant. >> I think she should. >> Oh man, having the right people to execute is because- >> You're right. >> Us as trial lawyers, Bob, we're all over the place. So it's- >> You're going to come off for a guest for. >> Yeah, I mean the consultant says so. >> Bourbon will, we need you because we need another poor. >> This is Bob Simon, the host of Bourbon Approof. This tour we couldn't do without our sponsors. >> The Bourbon Approof is an artificial intelligence platform that automates a lot of the mundane tasks that lawyers and law firm staff do from demand letters to do running playbooks to opening up claims or in police reports. And doing those so you can spend more quality time with your clients in the courtroom or in their living room. We also have attorney share. Attorney share is a product to be able to have a lawyer. lawyers find more cases in their wheelhouse to help clients without having to have the market spend that's out there and also tracking all of your referrals in one place. It integrates with all the major case management platforms and it allows lawyers to really better serve their clients and also refer out clients and other jurisdictions and practice areas and be able to monetize all of that good will that they put in. Other sponsors, Justice HQ, Justice HQ, is a mobile app bringing together all the community in the legal field. From vendors to staff to paroligos, they have own masterminds, they have our podcasts that are on there, other lawyers podcasts are on there, on demand education, every event in the industry and you have direct access to the best of the best. And of course, coastal research, coastal research helps all of us injury lawyers find out the insurance limits to investigation that's on the other side. Whether you know it or not, they're not required to in many states to tell you how much insurance they is for the person that catastrophically harmed your clients. But coastal research is able to do it very quickly and efficiently for you to have an actual technology platform that's so easy to use and pushes data back and forth. We only let people sponsor the show if we use their products and believe in them. So Bob, can I introduce Amanda? Yes, you can introduce Amanda. So Amanda, Amanda came to the firm when she was 19. Wow. 20. Answering the telephone. Wow. She was in college going to school at night. This was like three years ago, four years ago, 20, 24. Almost 10 if you would. She's 30. No. I'm an adult now. I'm just wondering where this establishment is 21 and up. Alright. Yeah, exactly. Law school became my paralegal. We worked hand in hand for years and then Amanda became a lawyer. Last year, I think it was last year I made her the managing attorney of the entire office. Wow. Yeah, that's awesome. So congrats. Thank you. And this year she became a partner. Congratulations. No, that's an accelerate. Right. But I mean, how did it so? You invest in people, see one at special, but did you have to set like KPIs or something from their partner team to give to Amanda to be able to hit to have that growth? I mean, yes, obviously, any time that we're moving anybody through a career path and moving them into positions of leadership in an ideal world, you set that leader up for success by giving them the KPIs, giving them the tools, training and expectations to be able to do their job effectively, and also training them on how to work with the people that are working for them to be able to give and read those KPIs and say, "Hey, how is my team performing? How does that look like?" All right, let's do the poor. And then I'm going to ask you a question, okay, Amanda? Okay. Okay. So we have a special bottle on this one. This is a private barrel pick that I did of Larsonie. Just released this week. It is barrel strength, the 126.3 proof. Oh, wait. You picked the right guess for 126 proof. If you know anything about Larsonie, Larson's coming out of Heaven Hill to Silly. Larsonie is named after an incident named John E. Fitzgerald. So he was a U.S. bondman. My bondman, I mean, he was back when the bond act was going on and he had a bondman onsite from the government. He was a bondman at Heaven Hill. He would be one of the only two people outside of the master's stiller that had keys to that bonded warehouse. He would sneak in at night and he would take sips off of the barrels that he thought were the best and sell them, which they ended up calling Fitzgerald barrels eventually. But that of course Larsonie, which is where the name comes from. No. So speaking of Larsonie, can I offer you a job? How do you like California? Amanda. So we'll do this for. Let's do this Amanda first. Thank you. I'm going to stamp you too. You're going to get the bourbon of proof ice stamp. I forgot to do it for everybody else in the show. There you go. Look at that. Oh, that's fancy. You can pick one that you want. Look at that one. What's it say? A tourney share. A tourney share. There you go. Burn it in. This is my office logo, Fury Legal Film. It's also like Fendi. He's going to get the fuel. Well, thank you very much. Cheers. Mike said. He's still stamping. He's still stamping. Oh, that's fantastic. You can taste that 131 proof. You can. Actually, not a toss of that. So what were the-- Maybe I need to try bourbon. What were the deliverables that you had to be able to do to go up to accelerate your career path? Yeah. So I think that when I first started at the firm, we were very small. Like Mike said, we really didn't have KPIs or deliverables or things like that. And truthfully, even when I became managing a tourney, we didn't have those things. But my deliverables were basically scaling the firm and most importantly, being dedicated to growing myself as a professional, especially being so young and being committed to learning the business, learning how to be a business person, which obviously I had no idea how to do that. But working with consultants and mentors like Vista to grow my skillset, learn new things, learn how to not only manage a business, but scale it. And in the 10 years I've been there, we went from about 10 employees to 75 and 35 of them were hired over the last two to three years. So they all report to me. And it's really just about being dedicated to showing up and being the person they need me to be and being the person that the firm needs me to be. And I think those are the skills that you can't be taught. Yeah, and well, cheers to you, Amanda. She's in the office at 5am. Well, this is, but I want to, I want to, I want to, I want to, I want to, I want to, I want to. 5am. Age and years of practice is only a number. Exactly. And if you do these things and do within 10, so cheers to you and everybody else, that's a mantra of Justice HQ, our community is, if you have the right people in the right places and you have the right community in the right circles, you really can do anything that you want. So cheers to you, Amanda. Thank you. Cheers. I almost drank my mic. All right. So what are some things, you know, rewinding time that kind of inspired you to go down this path? I mean, were you, were you a product developer? Like how did you go get into needles to begin with? No, I was actually, I went to school, I was an English major and I ended up double majoring in mass communications, which when I was in school was sort of the marketing major that was, that was the only marketing major that we had. And then I had a choice when I left, it was sort of either become a teacher or become a lawyer. I took the LSAT, I was going to become a lawyer and then I thought, what the hell am I doing? Like, this is not what I want to do. And I kind of fell into the legal tech space because there was a marketing position available. And I was lucky because I joined the company as director of marketing, having no idea what I was doing. I had no business being director of marketing. I had no business being director of anything. And I think having that opportunity to sort of step into something and say, all right, I'm going to, I'm going to figure this out. I'm just going to say yes and figure it out was kind of amazing for me. And it worked out. And I had such good people that invested in me and mentored me. The gentleman who started Meadles was in his 80s when I was hired and really took a vested interest in growing me as a person kind of like with Amanda where just gave me opportunities to do things that maybe I otherwise would not have been able to do. And so I was able to step into that. And I really got to love, I mean, as insane as it sounds, really got to love the personal injury community. And being able to hear people's struggles with how to implement software and all of that translated so beautifully into struggles on how to scale a business, struggles on so many other things under roof that don't have to do with the practice of law but have to do with the business of running a law firm. So what advice would you give to like law firm owners? Some things you think it practically do right now. I mean, there's a lot of micros as Mara Fiori's Bob Simons in the world that are, we're so busy literally trying cases, managing files and just the house is on fire every day because we got stuff to do. What are some things that we should be doing? Okay, first of all, you should be delegating. All of those things should not be, I mean, so many lawyers. Man, do you think that you should take your physical mail with you on every plane ride, go through every single page and make sure that it's accurate? Do you think we should be doing these things? I think you know my answer to that. It's a big fat hell no. We should not be doing that. I have a method to my madness. Yes. So everybody thinks that the joke he does it for show, one of our friends, Eric Heath, who's Eric's back there, so they're on the show. They're on the same plane coming out here and he took a picture, but they're f*****s in there with his mail, just in his bag, all of his mail. Okay, we call that not the highest of best use of your time. Well, right? Listen, I have a reason why I do it, that I look at regular old school mail and I think it's a good reason. In my office, let's say we have over a thousand active cases. So we use foundation AI and stuff. My office is state of the art and all technology. But I can't just randomly look at 1,500 cases. and see, oh well, this one is just as, why didn't you send us this and this so we can settle the case? How am I hell am I supposed to know that? When foundation AI scans it into the file and I never see the mail. So I look at the mail and I find what's good the f*** going on with cases and then I will send the message to the lawyer handling the case. Hey, why did you why does this judge say that you missed this hearing? No one showed up for the plaintiff. You think they're gonna f***ing tell me no one showed up for the plaintiff? So do you have folks on your team that you trust to put into position to monitor things like that? No, do you read every piece of that? I was going to do this 100%. Even though I'm part of the younger generation, I review my physical mail for that same exact reason. Because it brings your attention to the problems that nobody's ever going to tell you. Exactly. I always, the guy who taught me how to be a lawyer said never lose control of the mail. From the mail, everything comes out from there. Is that person disbarred that gave you that advice? No. All right. Very quick. He knows a lot of people that have been. I do know people that have been disbarred. Yes, but not for not for mail. No, not for mail. Maybe from having a nose problem or two. So one of the things, I don't know how you guys do your, you know, the person in New York, do they have to give you the policy limits on the person they have to in most states, California, they don't. Other states, they do not. So we have to like find out what the limits are to see how much our clients have access for recovery. Right? Well, how much financial responsibilities out there? So we've been using a company called Coastal Research, or one of the sponsors of the show. They will find it. I did one where they found it within like 10 minutes and an excess policy. I've always wondered how they find it, but they know, you know, they figured it out. But it's so disheartening whenever it's like, yeah, what we have to use a service because insurance company can deliberately conceal something. Yeah. Yeah. It's a wild, isn't it? We check it as well. So in the case, I was just on trial on. We were double checking the coverage limits while the case was on trial to make sure we knew what they really had. And yours, on yours, it's like for that's a medical malpractice case. Yeah. You have the surgeon, the hospital, different layers. There's a lot of opportunity to hide shit. Yeah, but when you get down to individual physicians, there are smaller policies. So just double checking and making sure that you have everything. So we routinely use those services, but that's interesting that, what's the name of the company? Coastal Research. Okay. So do you, when you advocate, I mean, do you pair your customers with certain types of technologies? You think we'll fit their use best use case? Like, what kind of do you offer that service as well? So pairs is a strong word. What we typically do is say, hey, let me, because I have an intimate relationship with this firm, and I understand the size of your firm, what your pain points are, things like that. I typically would recommend a few service providers and help you vet those service providers for what you need. So we tend to stay fairly agnostic with certain things like case management software. And we like to say, I don't care where you're getting the data as long as you're getting it. So I'm not going to come in and overturn your Apple card and totally make things insane for your firm. Most of the things that most firms need are tweaks or little tweaks, not necessarily a giant overhaul when you start from scratch, but hey, this process isn't working right. There's a, there's a pain point here. Let's figure out this. This, this vendor isn't, where the service provider isn't working appropriately. Let's figure out this pain point. And, and as you chip away at those things, over time, your firm becomes better and better and better. And if you're investing in your team while you're doing all of that and setting those leaders up for success and giving all the new folks that come in an onboarding program, giving them KPIs, giving them what success looks like in that role. It makes those conversations when you have to let people go. So much easier, makes those conversations of setting people up for growing within the firm so much easier. And like, Kudos to Mike for taking a firm and saying, I recognize talent and I'm able to show that talent that there is a place for them throughout their career, whether they're starting in the, you know, as a receptionist or starting as a paralegal, they know there, there is a growth path through that firm. And are you guys still, you were on my case, at least last time I met you, you guys still use my case, smart advocate, smart advocate. I thought you guys were also on that for a time for your, one of your practices. And the class action practice is on my case. Yeah, so I knew because I, when we built the, because on a tourney share, we built an integration with my case and some others were automatically not only put the cases in that you want to refer out or co-counsel but report back the KPIs. So in my case, you can go in and, when it changes the status update, it'll update downstream to the referral partner. So when you're doing class actions, mass towards, it's very valuable. This people ask all the time, what's up with that referral that I gave you? What's the status? And this just automates it. So, because we've had technology all the time to it is see what's working for that type of customer. Because if not one size fits all, it doesn't really exist. Absolutely not. And a lot of it depends on the size of the firm too. I mean, a smaller firm may need different technology, may need different operating procedures that are like, you know, new level, new devil. Every time you, new level, new devil. Yeah, every time you get it. You should trademark that. Hey guys, you get that new level, new devil. Got it. He's already got it. All right, you're out. Patent bending. All right, right? Mary Ellen Murrow. Co-author to the memory of that release you signed. Gotcha. Just kidding. So, you know, we should at the end of the episode here ask you like, first of all, what do you think the future of legal is? And then I'm going to ask you what your bourbon approve is. Okay? So first question, what's the future? What's the next 18, two years of legal look like? I mean, it's kind of wild out there right now. Isn't it? And so I feel like the future kind of looks like how do we either prepare our firm to be the best it can be or prepare our firm to be sold to someone else. And either one of those things involves planning and getting your firm operationally successful. And how we started the episode about the cautionary tale of partnering with the wrong partner whether it's private equity or an acquisition can be a complete disaster or it could be the best thing that happened to you. Exactly. Exactly. It has to be a values fit. It has to be a bad. And that's the number like whenever I'm researching, even people we work on cases together, if I don't fit, if I don't like you as a human being or figure values, I'm not going to work with you. Of course not. Not going to happen. So all lawyer, it's a big thing that people are knocking every door on every door for law firms, private equity or other law firms. Do your research because my goal is to make sure that every small and solid firm can survive and actually thrive. But you do have to set yourself up just in case. You have to have an exit. A lot of people, something happens in their family or some reason, but you have to be ready for it. But unless you have all of those things backed up that you will do with bistic consulting, make sure you are ready in case that events happen. Yes, yes, yes. So what's your bourbon approved? What is, because when we met each other in Baltimore, we were drinking a lot of bourbon. And you said, I like bourbon. I was like, well, let's get you on the show. What's your bourbon approved? What's your sipper? What do you like to drink? What is it? What is my, what I like to drink? Yes. So I like my favorite favorite bourbon is Clyde Mays, Alabama style. What is it called? Clyde Mays. Clyde Mays. Yes. But it's specifically the Alabama style because it's got this like sweetness to it. And I think I get really attracted to that sweet this, like an old fashioned, the Luxardo cherries, I like that. So you're the only person that ever said Clyde Mays on the show. I mean, it's good, but it's very specific things, right? Not on one size fits all. I want to know, I want to know more about what this Alabama style is. I've heard live shows in Alabama. I've heard about this Alabama style. That's the Alabama slammer. It's completely different. Totally different. Totally different. He spends a lot of time in the clink. I see that. All right, well, Barry, I'll thank you for being on the show. Thank you, Vista Consulting. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [Music]