Breaking down barriers: how do we shape future skills?

Hello, and welcome to the second series of Catapult Network's Supercharging Innovation podcast. I'm Catherine Bennett, CEO of the High Value Manufacturing Catapult, and this year's chair of the Catapult Network. Our network is made up of world-leading technology and innovation centres established and powered by Innovate UK. This series explores how the UK must break down barriers to solve national and global challenges, and how this can be realised through the power of science, innovation and technology. I'll pass you over to our expert panel to find out what's captured our attention this week. Ms Catherine, that was great, and what a super introduction. My name's Kathy Bowden. I'm the skills manager at the Satellite Applications Catapult, and today I'm delighted to be joined by my Catapult colleagues, Dr Martin Main, who's Chief Scientific Officer at the Medicines Discovery Catapult, and Priya Guha, who's a non-executive director at the Digital Catapult. Our special guest today is Debbie Johnson, Head of Innovation, Talent and Skills at Innovate UK. Today, as part of the Supercharging Innovation podcast series, we're going to be discussing how we can break down barriers to shape future skills. Everybody is talking about the issues of recruitment, how we build those pipelines of the right skills that are going to help us, the media's full of shortages, particularly in stem subjects, and we know that the problems ride spread. It doesn't really seem to matter which sector you're talking about. All of us have problems. It affects the entire supply chain and the pipeline of people coming through who are candidates for our workforce. One way or another, it has a huge knock-on effect, particularly for ourselves, but also with the pipeline coming through and ensuring that our training community, the teachers themselves are in short supply. And that means that all of us need to be thinking more innovatively about how we can support the pipeline and bring people through. It affects our workforce so much in so many ways. We need to collect the data at all stages of the pipeline to ensure that we are doing what we can, where we can, and make sure that we can capitalise on so much of what we do. We live in exciting worlds, we work in exciting places, and the more that we can do to share that excitement, the better things will be as we go forward. So, with that, let's get to the first question. What's the role of science, innovation and technology in breaching the skills shortage? And for this question, I start with Martin. Perhaps you'd like to kick off. I'm Martin Mayne, so I work at the Medicines Discovery Catapult. We work with innovators across the Medicines Discovery sector, helping them to shape and deliver their projects and move the discipline forward. Drug discovery is a really highly multidisciplinary subject. So it's really critical to deliver work in this area that we have access to a wide range of skills. Clearly, one solution to that would be to have a workforce that's got a range of different skills and the flexibility to move between different types of activity. But also, one thing which is really critical is the ability to collaborate effectively across the sector. Collaboration is just really critical just because there's such a diverse set of skills needed to deliver a drug discovery project, probably far more than one, certainly one individual or one small organisation could achieve. So the example I'd like to share is around really a new emerging modality for drug discovery, which is around RNA therapeutics. I think everyone on this call will be familiar with the Pfizer and COVID vaccines, which were an RNA therapeutic, which is encapsulated in a drug delivery formulation. So this combination of an active ingredient and a drug delivery system is really important for this type of medicine to transport the RNA therapeutic and get it to its site of action in a stable way. But what this does mean is there's many, many different considerations when creating a drug. So material science and innovation in that space is really important in terms of developing a drug delivery system, formulation, manufacturing and also biological characterisation of these medicines. So many different skill sets need to be brought to bear, but quite a diverse set of skills. In the last year or so, we've worked in very close partnership with CPI, which is another part of the catapult network, along with three academic centres to actually address the challenge of developing these new types of medicines. And we've collaborated around what we call the intracellular drug delivery centre. So in this collaboration, each different organisation brings something very different but very complementary to the collaboration. One of our partners brings expertise in formulation. We very much focus on the characterisation of medicines. Another partner looks at safety considerations. But what we find is by working in this way, we can bring together a very diverse set of skills around a common problem. And I think, you know, equally important, I think the project team members really enjoy this way of working. We all learn a lot from each other. We operate as a very tightly knit team, but each of us has our own organisation where we've got more specialism and a different skill sense. In conclusion, I think just like to make the case of the collaboration. So certainly we do need to develop those skills in individual people, but I think we can also be great in the sum of our individual parts if we collaborate very effectively across the sector as well. Martin, thank you. I think that's a hugely important point. Could I hand over to Priya? Absolutely. Thank you. And just start, frankly, by agreeing with what Martin said. Of course, collaboration is absolutely fundamental to making this work. To recap, I'm actually a non-executive director at the Digital Caspals and have lots of other roles across the technology and innovation ecosystem. So as you might imagine, Cathy, lots of strong views on the subject of how technology, science and innovation can make a difference in bridging the skills shortage. The reality is we're not going to bridge the skills shortage if we don't have the right engagement from the technology sector in making the change that we need to make to support the workforce of the future. That is the case across the board, but in the case of the work that I've seen in my role at Digital Caspals, it's absolutely fundamental. A great example that we've worked on at the Digital Caspals is the work around advanced media production studios that Digital Caspals have done. The reality is we don't yet have a full range of skills and experiences in the UK to support this new industry of advanced media production. And so the Digital Caspals recognises it needs to play a role in supporting this new talent, this emerging talent to come through in this space. So in the case of the Digital Caspals, we've established partnerships with Goldsmiths and the University of London, Gateshead College, Screen Skills and other organisations to really try and address the skills shortage in the sector and make sure that the talent that is coming through the sector has access to the right types and facilities they need to be able to learn and get the experience. So really, really important area and so glad you brought it up, Cathy. Thanks very much, Priya. And Debbie, your insight from an innovative perspective. Yes, I can't support the idea that we need to talk more enough. And I'm really glad today we've heard the example of the advanced media production and RNA therapeutics because they're both examples which we're currently using for the workforce foresighting hub. The reason it's essential that we think about it differently is as well as within science, innovation, technology, we experience skills shortages. And as Martinus pointed out, how we can do more around interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary through our education system is integral to that. But I think we also have to accept that the fantastic innovation that we have in the UK creates the skills shortages of the future. So that's something where we're really uniquely positioned in terms of not only are we responding to our own workforce needs, but the magic that the catapults are doing are in essence then affecting other businesses in creating those skills shortages. And so that's where the work that the catapult network has initiated through the workforce foresighting hub really does come to bear in terms of how do we really make a difference? And potentially it will bridge skill shortages. But in the longer term, it's about saying at the point that we're discovering all this amazing change that we can create in our science system. How does that really affect the workforce? And how do we then start talking about our education and skills system? Because the issue that we've had historically in the UK is businesses consistently say that they can't access the people they want from our education and skills system. And that's because we only talk to businesses at the point where they need people rather than saying, what's your business about? And what changes are you working on now that are going to affect that workforce of the future? So I think for me, it is about bringing together education, technology and business and saying, what are we working on? And how do we want to see our skill system respond to that? Debbie, I'm really glad you brought up that point of the workforce foresighting hub because it to me, the most important thing we need to be developing now is a rationale and a protocol for robustly looking at our people supply chain and making sure that we're clearly understanding what the delta is between what is being delivered today and what we're going to need in five to 10 years time. And without that, we're not moving forward and I see that as being hugely important. Brilliant point. Thank you very much. So if we move on to our second question, Priya, I'm going to put you in the hot seat first. Who is responsible for harnessing and shaping those future skills in the UK? How do we strive towards common talent and skills goals? So I think the quick answer to that question, Kathy, is literally that everybody has a responsibility here. There's a role for government. There's a role for business. There's a role for academia. There's a role for education at the K-12 level as well. There really is an obligation for everybody to play their own parts in making a difference to how the skills agenda shapes up for the future and playing their own parts in delivering the solution to that. That includes, of course, the category network and it's really, really important that the category network is thinking about this as it thinks about the industries, the future and the skills that are going to be needed to support that industry in the future, irrespective of which category we're talking about. In the case of the digital category, one of the ways that we really think about how to be central to that conversation around responsibility and how you shape future talent is around the industry collaborations. We've had almost 3,000 company engagements since 2018 at the Digital Casper Port and in all of those company engagements, we're getting feedback from the companies about the skills they think they'll need, but also making sure that through the collaborative conversations we're having with them, we're also able to play a role in supporting the development and cultivation of skills that align with the evolving industrial and economic landscape that we're going to see in the future. Thanks Priya. I love that. Bringing back, it's again collaboration, it's bringing everybody together and like you, I completely agree that it's everybody's responsibility. No bit of it can do it alone and certainly we can't rely on a government per se or industry or even education to do it on their own. So huge. Debbie, over to you. Yeah, I would again, completely prescribe to this. I think we have strength in our individual responsibilities. I think that we have to look to each other more, but we also then need to find that common ground. I would love to think that people consistently talk to each other because the difference is, and I'm going to use the government example here, the Department for Education in England have a really unique role to play and it's a really important role to play. Equally, decent have a really important role to play. If I then started to think, well, should decent start really thinking about our education curriculum? No, let's play to our strengths here, but let's make sure that actually we're understanding what we're investing in in the UK in terms of our favourite technologies. Which technologies do we see as being most important to the UK and changing how the economy and our society works? And then how does that affect our education system? I think because we constantly see things as somebody else's responsibility, everything falls into this grey space. But actually what we have now, and it's been recognised consistently over the things that I'm going to say have been created or confirmed within the UK. So we have proper jewels, don't we? We have our amazing universities. We now have institutes of technology really focused on technology focused education. We've got the catapult centres. When you think about the richness of the conversations that can happen, we have everything we need, I think. But what we do need to do is play to each other's strengths, respect each other's strengths and come together to create those dialogues that move us forward. We do see that happening. It's so exciting to see the conversations that are now happening. As I've said, within technical education, within really thinking about how we play across the UK, really thinking about where there's devolved responsibilities. Actually, the model of foresighting works wherever you are. Yes, you'll play to your respective education system. But actually, these are models that can be lent and borrowed and customised. And I think the more we share, the more progress we'll make. Thanks, Debbie and Martin. Any additional? Yeah, I think absolutely. If we're going to achieve the government's aim of the UK becoming a science and technology superpower, we do need that strong-part line of talent. Very much agree with Prenier and Debbie that there's a role for all of us in achieving that aim. So at NDC, we're trying to address this at a couple of different stages at the moment. So we've actually been starting very early in engaging with school children between years 7 to 11. This is a piece of work we've done partnered with the Cheshire and Warrantom Local Enterprise Partnership on a school engagement programme. So this is both visiting schools, but also releasing a video that could be shared more widely across schools. And we've really enjoyed doing that and found that really fulfilling. We think we can really help in a number of ways in terms of nurturing interest and talent in science from that very early stage. And the reason we chose this age group is to try and get the message across to children before they start making career choices. We've done a number of different things with the children, but one of the biggest things we tried to do is tackle preconceptions. Really interesting feedback from the children, quite entertaining as well. But also I think really importantly trying to open up the range of different careers there are in science. It's not just sitting at a lab doing lab experiments. There's a huge range of different roles which we've got at NDC and across the different catapults as well. That's looking early, trying to energise and infuse the children as they make their career choices. I think the other area we've done quite a lot and I think the country has made a lot of progress in this space is around supporting talent as it progresses through education, through academia. So we've been quite active actually in hosting PhD interns. These are typically students in their second or third year of their PhD studies. There's some really good doctoral training programmes now running in the UK which actually have the funding to send students out for industrial placements. So we've now hosted I think around 10 interns across the last few years. And we've found that a really great thing to do. I think for the students they get experience of working in industry and exposure to an industrial R&D. But for ourselves as a catapult it brings really smart people into the catapult. It helps enhance our capacity to carry out novel science, bringing these early career professionals through the catapult through the lab for a few months with examples of things we're doing. But I think right across the different age group and different stages of people's careers we can really make a difference by developing that talent. I was just going to come in if I may, Cathy, with a compliment to what Martin just said actually because that point about thinking about the full career journey is so vital. And I think from where the catapult sits, one of the key roles we can play in addition to what Martin just talked through is actually at the early career or indeed apprenticeship stage because those are really important segments of the population that we need to encourage into the sort of science and technology innovation space, given the skill space to then build a career in that sector and go on to exciting things, whether you know, within our organisations or frankly elsewhere. And I think just from a digital catapult perspective we found two really exciting things to get involved with in this area. One is around the apprenticeship schemes run by organisations like Ada College, where we have an apprenticeship scheme supported by Ada College to bring people through technology apprenticeships at the catapult. And then the other thing that I wanted to flag, which I think is also a great scheme to get involved with, is something called the 5% Club. I don't know if anyone's heard of it, but it's really around supporting early career professionals and giving them the opportunity to really build an early stage career in the technology space. So those are just two things, I think, are really important additions to what Martin was just talking about for a full career journey. Thanks, Priya. And I think from my experience, what I've also seen, I've been lucky enough to work very closely with the UK Space Agency. Well, I worked for them for a while before I came to the catapult. And we had a very strong collaboration with STEM Learning with the development of resources that have ensured that we're influencing students from as early as Key Stage 1 all the way through into the workplace. So that's been great. We just need to keep doing it. And the number of people that I've seen, you know, the skills has suddenly become the topic that everybody talks about. Well, about time, because I've been working in this area for 10 years, and there used to be two of us at a meeting. And now there are hundreds of us going, this is what we should be doing. And we are doing it because we're all collaborating and bringing things together. So I do think it's hugely important and very exciting. And increasingly also with the space placements we do, we're now working with the Space Agency. So next year, we'll be delivering on their behalf a further 120 opportunities for industry across the sector, which is really exciting. Hard work, but it's a great way of getting young people into the sector. So if we move on to the next question, I'm going to kick off with Debbie this time. Debbie, we call the UK a diverse and multi-skilled nation. There's no question about that. But what inherent biases do you think we need to eliminate to really take advantage of our unique work from us? So I think this is a really complex question, obviously, because of the multitude of places where biases can occur. And Martin's given a really good example of how scientists are perceived. And STEM learning is doing a fantastic job in really working with schools and colleges to help people understand that we don't need to limit ourselves by our perceptions of what occupations and sectors look like to us. And I think there's something really important that we do need to do within our education and skill system to help see the multitude of opportunities. But I also think as businesses, as the catapult network, there's also things that we need to challenge ourselves on. I think that for me, what we constantly see is, I'm going to call it the recruit in your own image. I think if I was to say what one thing could we do as individuals to take away, I think it's considering our own recruitment mechanisms and processes. Because I think we have a tendency to think, because I've had this educational route, because I've had this career pathway, that's what I want to see in other people. So one of the things since moving to innovate UK, and I would say before this, I worked in the construction sector. And if you can imagine the difference in career pathways and in education levels, one of the things I've noticed is a lot of roles have a requirement for a PhD. And I find that really challenging. There are absolutely roles without a PhD. I can see why you can't do them. But there are so many people that when you talk about, right, how do we build this workforce of the future? How do we really think about where these people are going to come from? The immediate is, oh, well, they'll all need to have a PhD. And you're sat there saying, let's talk about flexible. If it's about having a level eight education attainment, let's talk about that. But why is it always a particular pathway? If I were to think about, given the complexities that do exist, and given the great things that are already going on across the UK to help raise people's aspirations and help people understand that these opportunities can be available to them, I think the next thing we need to do is make sure that those businesses are welcoming and inclusive in their own right. So for me, I think it's about saying, what are we doing about? We've talked about it today. What are we doing about placements? How can we introduce new thinking into the way our businesses operate? Are we committed to the 5% club? What's our graduate recruitment like? What's our apprenticeship recruitment like? Are we looking at all the different types of talent we can welcome into our business? And are we attracting and retaining them? And I think that was the important thing I learned in the construction sector. And I'm beginning to hear members of it in some occupations, which is we did our best in the construction sector, continue to do an amazing job to demonstrate that it can be inclusive. But the minute somebody has a bad experience in that workforce, they could have done a four-year apprenticeship. If they go and have a bad experience, they will leave that sector. So we also have to think about how we retain people. So I think there's so much we can do. But I think we should each be targeting ourselves as to what can we do differently? Really good points. And interesting on that one, with space placements and industry this year, we are utilising and applying blind recruitment platform for all of the companies across the sector who are using the programme, which means that they're getting a soft trial of how it works, which hopefully will be positive experience. My fingers are well and truly crossed. Martin. So let me just like to say a few words about geographical or regional bias. It was a slightly different aspect. So I think where we were very much focused on early stage R&D, I think there is a regional bias towards the south-east of England is where a significant number of early stage businesses are emerging from the south-east of England. Just a few comments around that really. So I think practically what we've done at Medicine Sysco for a catapult as we've actually chosen a region away from the south-east, we're based in the north-west of England in Cheshire at Oldly Park in a life science innovation hub. But what we've found practically is even though we're based in north-west, which is geographically a few miles away from many of our constituents, we can work with companies across the whole of the UK. And we've got active projects in Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England. But then maybe just to say a few words about post-COVID working both in a positive and negative. I'm sure what we're all finding is that online meeting platforms have become so embedded today, Team, Zoom, etc. In day-to-day working that physical location is much less of a barrier than it used to be. And I think we're all working very effectively in that world. I think there is a risk of working in that way in that because we're having less physical interaction, you know, are we going to lose a sense of community, share purpose in each of our sectors. So I think there are things we need to work really hard to do. So where there are key industry conferences in the UK, we tried to really do a lot of pre-work, attending those meetings, making those connections. We also do state-of-the-nation opinion pieces annually. We run webinars series. So I think we do need to put the work in to making sure we stay connected now. We're in this slightly more remote working world. So just a few thoughts there around the regional bias. I think what both Martin and Debbie have talked to is actually really the wide range of factors that we need to think about here. And the reality is this isn't a zero-sum game. We can't just focus on one one day and then focus on the other the next. We need to think about the whole range of inherent biases that are there in the British economy, in the British society to then actually look at where the opportunities are. I've worked a lot over my whole career on the area of gender bias and also bias on the basis of minority status. And the reality is, is that these are still really all pervasive areas. The digital catapult itself has done some research on this. They released a report in 2023 last year on called the Diverse Founders in Advanced Digital Technology, which really looked at sort of what factors affected the ability of diverse founders to scale their businesses. And unsurprisingly, all diversity metrics, all of the things we've talked about so far really made a difference in their ability to get finance and therefore scale their businesses. This is particularly relevant in the context of gender bias for funding. What we found is that in 2022, all male founded companies with a focus on distributed systems technologies like blockchain, they secured a staggering 93.2% of all equity investment related to that technology. So that's a really stark representation of how that gender bias is still playing through. There's two things though that I wanted to pull out in relation to this. I think one, we need to think about how data can really play a role. We can't do much about this area of diversity and lack of representation if we don't have the data to back it up. And so all of us in the catapult network really need to think about sort of how are we tracking data relating to under representation and the impact that has on the sector, on the research innovation, on the company's ability to scale. But also, how can we play a role to showcase the best of the best irrespective of where they come from? And sometimes this is about shining a spotlight on underrepresented groups and the digital catapults had an amazing program called Futurescape Black Founders, which is really giving black founders the opportunity to get the spotlight shone on them and increase their ability to get equity funding from the private sector as a result. The key point though that I wanted to end on in relation to this, Cathy, is the why. We often spend rightly a lot of time going, you know, this is important, we need to do it and therefore looking at what interventions we can make. But we should never forget why this matters. And if we look at a science and technology ecosystem in the UK, we will neither reap the economic benefits of those technologies nor harness the full scale of potential solutions out there if we're not having a diverse workforce at the table. And that's absolutely fundamental to our collective success in this space. Priya, I think what you just said about the power of that diverse ecosystem driving innovation is absolutely imperative. I mean, there's so much evidence for that. To me, it's an absolute no brainer. We cannot dismiss any portions of the workforce without losing elements of that. I think you're absolutely right about gathering evidence. In 2021, I think it was, we, across the space sector, we ran a census, collected data on various protective characteristics across the workforce, which has given us something that we can now measure ourselves against in ways that we didn't have before. And I think, you know, continuing that, measuring ourselves, doing the monitoring and evaluation that we're constantly being exhorted to do is absolutely imperative. And I also love the point you made about enabling more women in this case or minority ethnic communities to be able to access the funding to drive forward their businesses. I've been exposed just recently through a neighbour of mine to a new organisation that's driving forward top level support for CEOs in software companies, particularly in startups. And I think that kind of thing is so important, making sure that that ecosystem is there to support the top level as well as the bottom level, because without both, we're not going to get where we want to be. So last question, I think, what is the one single technological breakthrough or policy initiative that you believe will help the UK to shape future skills? Martin, you can kick off first. So I think in the medicines discovery sector, and I suspect in all of our different sectors, there's a huge change ongoing at the moment in terms of an enormous increase in the availability of data related to drug discovery. And the real challenge is how we use this data to make drug discovery more predictive and more successful. So I think the win there is going to be having the technologies and having the skills to really unlock this data and make it work for us to give you some examples in our sector. There's been a huge increase in the availability of consented personal health data and samples in terms of patient records, really huge initiatives from the UK Biobank, Genomics England, our future health, trying to collect physical specimens, for example, blood samples, but also doing questionnaires, et cetera. There's new technologies available to generate incredibly rich data from human samples. And there's also the advent of digital biomarkers, where we're using digital technologies to measure indicators of biology, just hard rate monitoring, glucose sensing, et cetera, et cetera. So we got this vast, vast uplift in data available in our space. So what do we do without data? How do we get value from that? So I think for me, without having an absolutely crystal clear answer on the skills we need, clearly skills in data science, in AI, and that broader theme are going to be incredibly important to really move the dial in this space. It's a really exciting time, but I think it will be a different set of skills. And I think this area will evolve incredibly rapidly in the next few years as well. So it's actually going to be having the skills, but the mindset to continually evolve those skills as the area moves forward. Thanks, Martin. Priya. What Martin was just talking about there is about the sort of horizontal technological innovations that are really going to impact our world. He talked about data, he talked about AI. I think it's really, really important to focus on those horizontal areas, because if we crack that from a skull's perspective, we can then look at the application of those technologies in lots of different verticals. Obviously, Martin's talking about it from a sort of medicine's discovery perspective, but the reality is all of the areas he described could be equally applicable for the world of studio production, as I was talking about earlier, or our ability to make differences in the construction sector, which Debbie was talking about earlier in the program. So I think it's really, really important to think about those horizontal skills. And the other area that I think is going to be fundamental to the future, and when I'm talking about the future, this is probably in the sort of decade-hence timeframe, is quantum. Because once we're able to really get a skills base in the UK that can support the quantum industry of the future, we're then at the forefront of being able to reap the benefits of this sector, which is likely to be somewhere between 20 and 35 billion pound sector by 2027. And that's the UKRI estimate. So if we get that right in the UK, we're in a whole position to really reap all the benefits of a new innovation like quantum computing. Thanks, Priya. I can see a nice building block here. Debbie, go over to you. I pondered this question for a while because there are so many exciting technologies and there are so many things we can harness in the UK. I ended up coming back to the policy initiative for me at the moment, the National Science and Technology Council, because again, harnessing those breakthrough technologies. But again, it takes us back to our earlier conversation. For me, the difference that we're seeing at the moment with NSTC is the ability to create conversations. It can be really frustrating at times working with government departments who are so frantically busy, all trying to strive to absolute things that the UK needs, but failing to talk to each other and therefore missing key opportunities to take key advantage of things that really can help build the workforce in a faster way to realise our technology goals. The NSTC now has delivery plans both associated with those technologies, including quantum and engineering biology, but also about STEM skills. So it's the first time we're seeing all of, as Priya mentioned, these horizontals and verticals really coming together. I'll be frank, I don't care what it's called. What I care about is the fact we continue to have conversations like today, whether that across the catapult network, across businesses with government, any mechanism, policy initiative that can help that happen, I think will only move us forward to making sure that we're realising the true benefits of those technologies that we want to see embedded in the UK. Thanks Debbie, and I think that rounds things off pretty effectively. The point you made Priya about those horizontals, the building blocks that Martin talked about and Debbie, you've also highlighted, they to me also highlight the absolute importance of making sure that we are supporting the entire pipeline. We blithely talk about supporting Key Stage 2, 1, up to wherever, but more fundamental than that is making sure that we have the teachers with the right skills and the inspiration in their bones and DNA that will make sure that those young people are there for us to nurture and mould and take to the next level, because at the moment we've got a problem with that. Priya, please. No, I was just going to come in, if I may, Cathy, and make a little plug for a charity that I'm a trustee of called Tech She Can. And the role of that charity is really to do exactly what you talked about, help teachers both prepare and deliver lessons that showcase the breadth of the opportunity technology can bring, but also give that level of inspiration, particularly for older children, to realise that there's a place for them in the sector. So Tech She Can is a great charity doing some really important work in this space. Thanks, and I think that's really smart, Priya, getting stuck into all those extra, if you like, extracurricular activities that do inspire, but I can't get entirely away from the problem that we have. When we looked at the census, the statistics for the number of women coming into the sector are very well aligned with the number of girls doing physics A level. So until we affect that level, we're not going to make a huge impact further up the chain. We can't ignore any one bit of it. We've got to get stuck into all of it. Has anybody else got any final comments that they'd like to make? Maybe just to reiterate on the horizontals, I really like the way Priya described that. I think we have actually just kicked off some work at a cross catapult network, actually looking at how each of the catapults are positioning AI and quantum in our sectors, then how can we work together as a cross catapult network to actually move the area forward. So I think just a really great real life example that we're just kicking off now where we're saying there are all these cornellities of technology which will influence right across all our different sectors and how do we work together to move them forward. Yeah, I think that's a really good point, Martin, because actually as long as people come to the bottom with the right building blocks, they can go wherever they want to go. But we also need to make sure that we're making our sectors as visible as they can be. And I particularly think medicines have had an incredible, I would hope, uplift because of the past few years. And space tends to have that due as well, pizzazz that comes from being space. And I often say that there are things that inspire kids, one of them is space and the other is dinosaurs and dinosaurs are dead. So, you know, let's stick with space. But even talking to school kids tomorrow, I can safely say that probably a huge proportion of them would have no idea that there'd been a big launch today. The role of the media is so different from when we were students than it is for them. On which note, I suspect we should wrap up. I'd like to extend a huge thank you to all three of you. You've been absolutely stellar. The discussion's been enlightening. It's been fascinating. We've explored various ways in which we can begin to break down those barriers that we all see. I'm sure this conversation will continue because by no stretch of the imagination are we there yet. You've been listening to the Catapult Network Supercharging Innovation podcast. Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Catapult Network Supercharging Innovation podcast, powered by Innovate UK. Available wherever you get your podcasts. 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