6: Breaker Wars: MCCB vs MPCB vs MCP vs MCB

[MUSIC] >> Hi, and welcome to episode six of Rock Talk for industrial components. My name is Bill Martin. >> And I'm Paul Sight. >> Paul, what's our topic for today? >> Well, Bill, as we stated at the last episode, we are going to talk about breaker wars. There's several different breakers that we sell, and they're not the same, and they're not even for the same uses, so we're going to go through the differences and when and how you would apply these four different types of circuit breakers. >> Cool, you know, the governments in many different countries have a bunch of regulations for panel builders where they say that they'll must have some sort of short circuit protection. You know, there's many different forms of it. You could even use fuses, too, as another option. So, you know, what, how do you know which one to use? There's so many different types of them. >> Well, you know, asking me a question, kind of pointless, Bill, and that's why as always, we brought somebody on that might know a little bit about the topic, because that's not me. >> No. >> And all the way from New Zealand, I want to introduce and welcome to the podcast, Simon Johnson. Tell us about yourself. >> Good morning, Bill and Paul. Hey, yeah. So, I'm based out of Auckland in New Zealand, and I've been with Rockwell for gosh, 19 going on 20 years based in New Zealand. As you might notice from my accent, it's probably a little bit of a mashup of New Zealand and English, so I was born in the UK, but I married a Kiwi and was dragged here kicking and screaming about 25 years ago. And my background has always been around industrial controls and drives and automation, even back in the UK. Now, I look after the components business across Australia and New Zealand. So, there's a lot of geography to cover, a lot of sheep, a lot of cows, but it's a pretty nice place to live. >> Oh, I bet. Yeah. You know, when this topic came up, I thought of you instantly, Simon, you know, I've known you for a long time and you've always been a great champion for industrial components. And I thought you'd be the perfect person to help talk about this topic. So, thank you for coming to the show today. >> No, it's great, it's really good to join you. So, Anne Bradley is very famous for its acronyms, especially when it involves circuit breakers. You know, there's MCCBs, MPCBs, MCPs, and MCBs, I'm probably missing a couple, so how do you know which one to use? So, Simon, maybe give us a little explanation of, why would you use a circuit breaker versus a fuse, and if you do use a circuit breaker, you know, of those four, they just described, you know, how do you, when do you use each one? >> Well, that's a really interesting question, Bill, and something I get asked fairly regularly. And I guess the first thing is, let's consider who we're going to blame for all this, I don't know, alphabet soup. >> Yeah. >> And I get the most surprised. It's an American. >> What? >> An American. >> Yeah, absolutely. Thomas Edison, he first described an early form of the circuit breaker in a patent going back to 1879. So I kind of guess we've got the who and the when. So what's the eye really around a circuit breaker? And I guess it's really worth noting that circuit breakers really are a great alternative to fuses. They're practical, and unlike fuses, they can be simply reset after a trip by an operator, and unlike fuses, you know, they can be used as an isolation device. So these features just allow and help minimize downtime and reduce production losses. But there are other things as well, things like circuit breakers can provide better performance. So if you consider fuses, they can degrade over time through aging. And there's no way to test other than destroying them. But a circuit breaker is tested during manufacture, and further it can be tested during its lifetime to ensure that that performance is maintained. And when we consider a circuit breaker as an alternative in equivalent fuses, under an overload condition, a circuit breaker can trick many, many times faster than a fuse. And the other thing that we see is that typically on sites when a fuse goes, we just see one fuse open. And that can be problematic. So with motors, they can continue to run just on two phases and experience an overload. And this will never ever happen with a circuit breaker, because you'll always break the three phases simultaneously. And the other thing that we see with circuit breakers is that we've got options, things like ground fault protection. And with the advent of more contemporary circuit breaker designs, we've got electronic trip units, which allow the designer to very accurately match the performance of the breaker to the application. Ah, so yeah, lots of great advantages for circuit breakers then. And then finally, there's the issue around the purchase price. OK, so a single fuse is going to be cheaper than a circuit breaker. But you need to think about the other things you need, you need bases. They don't have a built-in switch capability. So some kind of upstream fuse is going to, sorry, upstream switch is going to be required. Also fuses dissipate heat, so you may even need to have to consider a larger enclosure. And typically when one fuse blows, you're going to have to replace all three fuses. So you're going to have to keep fuses in inventory. And the other thing that you should consider is that a single breaker size may have multiple power ratings within that frame size. So you're again minimising that spares in inventory. Ah, that sounds great, but a lot of great advantages for circuit breakers. Yeah. So we've got the who with Thomas, we've got the when 120 years ago. So let's look at some of those acronyms that you mentioned at the beginning. So the first one to start with, I guess, would be the MCCB, which is a mouldy case circuit breaker. And the mouldy case part just refers to the construction of the breaker and simply put the circuit breakers assembled into a housing-eventulating material. I'm sorry, mouldy case circuit breakers provide overcurrent protection for the conductors and the equipment by opening before the current reaches a value and duration that would cause excessive temperature in the conductors and the insulation. And they also provide a disconnect function for the control panel. And the protection is around low level, overcurrent and short circuit current. And typically we describe them as a thermal magnetic device. Although now we do have, as I mentioned before, electronic trip variants. And with Alan Bradley, we've got a couple of families, the 140G and the 140U families. And they provide a really broad range of globally certified mouldy case circuit breakers up to about 3,000 amps, up to 100,000 amps, short circuit ratings up to about 690 volts. So you kind of describe that the MCCB, the mouldy case circuit breaker, as the go-to breaker for a control panel feeder. Okay. So for a feeder, he is an MCCB. Correct. And then the next ingredient in our alphabet soup was the MPCB. Yeah, what's that thing? Well, if that's a motor protection circuit breaker. And the MPCB is an application-specific variant of the mouldy case circuit breaker. So it combines the short circuit and isolation functions of the mouldy case circuit breaker with the overcurrent protection of the traditional motor overload relay. And we see them being used in what we call two components starter applications. So the two components are the motor protection circuit breaker and a contact for the control of the motor load. And unlike the mouldy case circuit breaker, and particularly for your markets in North America, the Allen Bradley motor protection circuit breakers are 100% rated, unlike MCCBs, which are typically 80% rated. So with the motor protection circuit breaker, you can use that circuit breaker's full thermal capacity in motor protection applications. And again, we've got a range of motor protection circuit breakers, the 140M and 140MG borders in range, which provides ratings through to about 150 amps. Great. So really, these are just used for motor control circuits then? Correct. Yeah. So that's not the only solution that you want around sort of motor control. We have another variant called the MCP or motor circuit protector. And again, the MCP is another application specific version of the mouldy case circuit breaker. The MCP provides merely short circuit or magnetic protection. It doesn't provide any thermal or overload protection. And we'd use this type of breaker, and what we call a three component starter. So that would comprise of an MCP for the short circuit protection and isolation functionality, plus a contactor for the control, plus a third part, an overload relay. And there are some real benefits to using or considering a three component starter. I guess for one, we've got the ability to easily remote reset the motor overload after a thermal trip. But additionally, it allows for the designer to select an overload that provides added functionality and easy integration into the automation control system. Products like the Allen Bradley E300 electronic motor protection relay, with Ethernet IP communications, local logic control, some expanded I/O, and some things like power monitoring capability. So the MCP really does provide the panel builder with some great design possibilities. And within the Allen Bradley family, we've got the 140M and 140MG, which have ratings up to 1200 amps. And it's also worth noting that there are some high magnetic trip versions that suit high efficiency motors that we see out in industry. And that reduces the chance of nuisance tripping due to high in-rish currents associated with those types of motors. But I guess that's a whole new topic and perhaps another opportunity for a podcast bill. There we go. That's a great idea. Always looking for new ideas. So for a two component starter, a user should use an MPCB or motor protection circuit breaker, but then for a three component starter, they should use an MCP, the motor circuit protector. You've got it, Bill. All right. And then we kind of move on to another device, the MCS, or molded case switch. And basically, it does what it says on the box. It's just a switch, but it's in the same form factor and style as the molded case circuit breaker. And it hasn't got any thermal or magnetic protection. OK, but it is useful in that it uses all the same accessory parts as the motor, molded case circuit breaker, the motor protection circuit breaker, and the motor circuit protector. It's got the same dimensions, and it uses all the same accessories. And typically it would be used for local isolation at a motor installation or to isolate a machine or possibly within things like bus tie isolation systems. And within our Allen Bradley range of 140 G molded case switches, we've got availability through to two and a half thousand amps at 690 volts. So it's kind of a non-fuse version of a disconnect, then, huh? Absolutely. Yes. So now we've looked at the molded case circuit breaker, the motor protection circuit breaker, the motor circuit protector, and the molded case switch. And we see that the raw variance of the molded case circuit breaker. So that leaves us with the MCB, the venerable, the miniature circuit breaker. And I guess neatly back to Thomas Edison in 1879, everybody will be familiar, I think you call them in the US, breaker panels from home to industry. They're just ubiquitous. They're everywhere. The MCB devices, miniature circuit breaker breakers are characterized by typically by their fault rating, the KA rating, their operational current, operational voltage, and trip character and six beakers and seekers and decars, et cetera. In terms of the products that we've got, it's really useful for North American panel builders. I would put a plug in here, we've got a large OEM manufacturing base in New Zealand. So we do ship a lot of equipment to the US where we have to comply with local UL regulations. So I'm reasonably familiar with things like our 1489M and 1492 SP miniature circuit breakers because they provide UL489 or possibly UL1077 compliance. So that's for branch protection or supplementary detection depending on which device you choose. And they're available in single and multiple variants, up to about 63 amps. And these families also suit my part of the world, so the IEC world, Europe and global applications. But we've also got a range within our umbrella that people probably aren't too familiar with, which are regional variations. So for example, we've got devices that we can use in China because they have triple C certification. So really, I guess I guess Bill, I hopefully you've been able to digest some of that alphabets and have a little bit of a clear understanding of some of those differences and all those crazy acronyms. No, that makes a whole lot more sense now. No, thanks. Thank you for explaining it. Yeah, so I learned a ton. I thought Edison invented the light bulb or something like that. So you're a mastery of our own history here and obviously of your circuit breaker knowledge is immense. But let's talk about what our customers are thinking, okay, now that I understand all the different circuit breakers you got Simon, why Allen Bradley circuit breakers? What makes them better? I'm sure there's other companies that have all these types of circuit breakers. Okay, well I'm not going to give you a history lesson about the compression rear stack company going back to 1903, but as well as Bradley, we've got an enormous history and I always feel very proud to see that old logo, the AB quality and really that goes to the heart of some of the reasons why our customers choose our products, they feel confident and you describe that circuit breaker offering, there's probably one of the most robust in the industry. Why is that? Well, Allen Bradley really does go out of the way to perform things like high current short circuit tests. We're talking about 100,000 hours and we've got a couple of testing facilities. I believe that there's one in the basement in Milwaukee. So these high current testing facilities are what we use to test those products to ensure that AB quality is really justified and really there are only a handful of facilities that can offer that high current testing globally, so it's a really ahead of the game. Yeah, it's a pretty fun test to watch. If you see 100,000 amps go through a motor control circuit. If it works, it's kind of boring, but when it doesn't work, there's lots of excitement, a lot of sparks. Yeah, it's pretty, I wouldn't like to pay the power bill, put it that way. No, exactly. I guess the other thing is that we've got a really broad portfolio of products, so our circuit breakers really do connect well to other supporting devices, so contactors, our buzz bar systems. They also have a full suite of accessories available, things like shunt trips, undervoltage releases, auxiliary trip contacts, contacts, motor operators. And there are even accessories that can help reduce the amount of power up wiring, so we've got all the wraparound products. And then kind of finally, I've mentioned it through talking earlier, it's about how we support global specifications, so no matter where the circuit breaker is located, it can be supported by distributing networks globally. And you can use those products in the US, Europe, Asia, South America, even New Zealand and Australia, so we've got robust products, we've got the right products, and we've got the right certifications. Wow, that was great, Simon, you know, so Paul, does this clear up any questions you might have in regards to the breaker wars? Bill, it's kind of a let down for me, it's not a war at all, these things seem to be complimentary and that we kind of need them for their specific reasons and there's no battle whatsoever. Yeah, and I'm amazed with the history of them too, and I have a much better understanding and appreciation for why these government agencies are mandating that you use some kind of short circuit protection device, and you might as well use a circuit breaker. So thank you, Simon, it was very insightful. Thank you for bringing the whole history in too, that was great, I learned a ton today. Well, thank you for having me, it's been a blast. Yep, Simon, it was a pleasure, thanks so much for spending some time and calling from so far away, I think you're the first person that we've had on a podcast that was outside of the country. Is that right? Yes, yeah, and below the equator too. Yeah, another hemisphere, wow, we searched far and wide for someone of your caliber, but obviously you brought immense knowledge to the podcast, so thanks again. So Paul, what's going to be our next topic for our next episode? Well, Bill, I like to kind of like to call this one bring the power, we're going to talk about power supplies, and it's interesting when you look at a panel or you walk by some of these industrial applications, you see lots of different items, lots of different lighting, lots of stack lights, some other things that are inside of panels, or even just a light when you open the panel, and all those things don't get powered from 480, so we're going to talk about some industrial grade products that provide that power for those different things that are required for some of the applications. Well, that sounds cool. Sounds like a great place to apply some miniature circuit breakers. Too shy, Bill. Too shy. Great. Well, thank you Simon, once again, we really appreciate you coming on today and I did have one trick, one trivia question for you, so how do you think Thomas Edison pronounced the word "illuminum"? I would hazard a guess that he probably said "illuminum" how was it he should have said how do you make it? I agree. Thanks a lot, guys. Trying to bring the cultural bridge together, Bill, way to go. Yep, that's me. So, hey, everybody, thanks for joining us for this podcast, thank you for listening. You can find us on Spotify, Google Podcast, radio, public, anchor, breaker, pocketcast, seismic, and Apple Podcasts. You should find my email where you found the link to this podcast. If you give us a suggestion, we will send you some swag, so we're going to have some new things, some t-shirts, maybe some ballcabs, maybe even a beverage, koozy, and we'll get that out to you to show our appreciation for you spending time with us. That sounds great, Paul, well, until next time, Paul and Simon, cheers. All right, Bill, we'll see you then. [BLANK_AUDIO]