Brands Are Spending in the Wrong Places

95% of Gen Alpha are gamers, 90% of Gen Z. Just by necessity, we're audiences are going. We're going to have to get it together and work it out. And as a brand, you don't want to wait till that 10-year mark to start learning your voice. Like, you're going to lose all of that. Run it up. Welcome back to Brands in Play, your podcast for everything immersive marketing. I'm Nick Hill, co-founder and chief innovation officer at Saw Horse. And this month, I'm excited to welcome our new co-host for May. And she's a returning guest on the show, Morgan Palmish, SVP, and head of Innovation Experiences at Digitas. Welcome, Morgan. Thank you, Nick. I actually think it should be welcome back, but that's all right. Yeah, well, you know, you've earned a spot. You're so good as a guest. I had to make sure you came back to help me. We had to come around. Hey, yes. What's going on in the news this week? OK, this week in the news, we've got a lot going on. First, maybe not starting on the most positive note. Meta plans to lay off 10% of the company this month. We've got webtoons and genies who are bringing AI avatars to a smartphone near you. We've got porches now in League of Legends, crazy. And Roblox creator payouts are going up. So we kind of like started low. Go high. Start on a low point and it's only up from here. And for our real time review, I'm going to be checking out the Star Wars activation inside of Fortnite, which I'm really looking forward to. And then we're going to be joined by Zoe soon, the head of creator and gaming at the IAB aka the interactive advertising bureau. We'll be discussing everything from brand experimentation and platform shifts to what marketers need to understand next as gaming technology and culture continue to collide. Really excited about that one. That's right. And if you're enjoying brands in play, make sure to subscribe and follow. Every week we break down how brands, platforms, and creators operate inside of gaming and immersive media. All right. Let's get into it. Let's go. Run it up. [MUSIC PLAYING] Morgan, we finally made it happen. I think we had planned this for a couple months now. And targeted this may to be your drop. And you're finally here. And I'm stoked that you're going to run this show with me this month. Same. I'm really excited. There's lots of fun stuff going on in the air. It's May, it's spring. Definitely next week, personally, I'm looking forward to attending the Think LA gaming brunch. It's over at the Skurball Center. They do it every year. It's an awesome show. So excited for that. What about you? I am also going to be there. We're going to be there together. But in my world, there's a couple things. Yesterday, we worked with Roblox to launch Billy Eilish's immersive concert experience inside of the block on Roblox to promote the new film, Hit Me Hard and Soft, the 3D immersive concert, theatrical experience. So that was a really cool opportunity. And now that's out. So check it out if you can. And yesterday, I was at the Paramount lot. At the Paramount Pictures Media Summit. And they were presenting the slate of upcoming films in '26 to all of their agency partners. And all across the landscape of advertising. It's just cool. And I gotta say, I can't talk about what is in there. But a lot of amazing movies are coming out this year from Paramount. Good things cooking. Can't wait. Absolutely. And top of mind, I think Street Fighter. Adding to list. Yeah, as you're very long to do list. But I think it's only about a minute long. So you can fit it. Easy. But let's keep it going. Let's go to the news. All right. Let's go to it. Why don't you kick us off? We start low. We end high. Yeah, starting at a low point, doom and gloom meta plans to lay off 10% of its entire workforce. Obviously pretty depressing. It's confirmed that they're cutting about 8,000 employees with those layoffs set to begin on May 20th. So it's happening this month. I know some employees over there. Everyone's kind of like, who knows what this-- who knows who is going to be impacted? They're not quite sure. And then this is coming off of their last round of layoffs that they did back in January from the Reality Labs Division, which they let go about 1,000 people on that round. And what's also interesting to note is that they're closing 6,000 additional potential job openings that they had floating out there that they wanted to hire. Those are now eliminated. Now meta is citing that the reason for this is efficiency and to do a higher focus on AI and how AI is impacting the company. I've never heard that before. Yeah, I know. It's like going around. But it's interesting to note as well that Microsoft and Amazon have also planned and started to do some pretty massive layoff, which obviously is like a look at things to come, unfortunately. And I just got me thinking about what does this mean for people like you and I who work in advertising? How should we be thinking about this? And one study showed that AI adoption in the workplaces doubled in the past year, the amount of people that are starting to lean in and leverage it. And we're seeing that the money that used to go into headcount is now like sort of being reallocated into AI tools and infrastructure. And so I think that puts pressure on all people like us to demonstrate that we're using AI with measurable improvements in the output that we're doing. And I think that now it's sort of mandatory for people in our industry to prove how they're using it. And I think people say, hey, I'm on the cutting edge. I'm exploring it. I'm experimenting. I mean, that's not cutting it anymore. Sure. So I think that leveraging AI is not just an advantage. It's slowly becoming a requirement. But what's your take? It has me thinking a lot about-- those are big numbers, right? A lot of scale of what we're cutting. It has me wondering if we are over promising what AI can actually accomplish. Yes. Like someone who is an avid user of AI and not just on the cutting edge, I question whether it is the efficiency tool that everybody has been banking on it to be. And I'll be curious to see how in some of these major layoffs that cite AI later down the road if that comes true. I know the major corporations, they're making big bets. I'm certain they're making those bets based on some sort of data they have. But I have yet to see AI ever do the thing perfectly that it says it's going to do in a way that felt like it could fully replace me. Or-- That's a great point. Time will tell. Well, what's your next story? All right. My next story. So I have been thinking a lot about micro dramas. I know there was a lot of conversation about micro dramas possible and for good reason, like they're popular, they're quick, they're episodic, they're built for the scrolling environment. But they're not really that new of a thing in principle. And my take today is, is there really just like a video version of something that already exists, which gets me to webtoons and this news article that I want to talk about, which I think is super cool and really smart. So webtoons, if you don't know, is serialized scrollable comics that are built for mobile. So they're really, really popular. They have global scale. They've been around for years. They got billions of people that are watching and viewing them all the time. And they just announced a pretty cool new interactive way to interact with their IP. So they're partnering with Genies. And it's going to turn their comic characters into these interactive AI avatars. So instead of just scrolling through a comic, fans can actually engage with the characters. They become something people can kind of like collect. And really cool is, as you're going through your conversation and moving through the narrative, the deeper you read, the more you unlock. So things like exclusive collectibles, hidden lore, expanded backstories, and that content that you're reading in the depth of which you read that content becomes the key to accessing more. When I read the press release, I thought they did it in a way that was really sensitive to creators. So it's fully often, they're not training the AI on creator art or stories. The creators that are doing it are working directly with Genies to build the avatar. They're giving the concept notes, the personality, the backstory, right? The creator gets total control in defining the character. And the AI is really what performs at its scale. So I think it does a really great job of like keeping the human component in what could be something that might be a fear that the creative community would have about AI. And I think it's a really interesting thing as far as brands, thinking about could fandom be a surface that brands can build on, not just a way you reach your audiences. This is a living breathing extension of an IP that people care about, which makes them kind of like an interactive touchpoint. So like, what would this character say about my brand or how would this character organically bring my brand into the story? I think opens up just an interesting direction. Like you would basically be sponsoring inside of a fantasy world and like treating a character like an influencer. I think that's so interesting. And I'm just curious, like, is that something people want? You know, I think so. but like it's a new thing, right? Like if you're a fan of a story. You know, you were consuming produce content with those characters and with those IPs, but then making them sort of like Have a mind of their own and then being able to communicate and interact with them Like is there data around this that shows that this is the type of engagement that we want to do with those IP characters? Like what are your thoughts? I'm just gonna go Disney World like think about how nuts people go to see these characters in real life and to make them feel like they are Jumping out of a story book, right and those characters don't even well some of them do but a lot of the characters don't even talk So I think there is something really cool about being able to feel like you were having a one-on-one connection with this fantastical Thing that you feel like you know a lot about like a lot of these stories people are gonna know that characters lore and know the personality traits of them I think it would be really compelling. I don't I think it'll depend to on the structure of like the Y Of obviously it's saying it's to unlock Collectibles hidden lore back stories like I think of it as almost like a little side quest with the character of Of making the story feel like it's coming to life in a new way. Yeah, good point My next story is all about how Porsche has partnered with League of Legends wild rift and this is a pretty cool Activation when you think about it. I'll break it down for you a League of Legends wild rift is the sort of mobile version of League of Legends the big huge riot games title and It's sort of the game design is a multiplayer online battle arena The audience for this game is approximately six million monthly active players which is pretty big but the The main League of Legends game is a lot bigger like massively bigger But Porsche chose to go specifically into the mobile version But the essentially to how they showed up they created a full sort of champion skin Built around the identity of one of Porsche's cars the 9/11 GT3 and They built the car directly into the game So the character has this skin as a whole like sort of futures style and then it has a function where it can kind of transform Into the car and then the car like has like a movement So it's all like part of the game mechanic. It's not just like they slapped in a billboard or like Sponsored by a Porsche like they took that they took the car and fused it into the character and then it has a function So it's really clever the way they did it and what's cool is they also produced a one-off version of the car Inspired by the game so they actually built the vehicle is in line with the game They made a cool TV commercial. I don't know if it's TV commercial It's a it's a commercial like a whole produced video spot that has like It's a real life thing with the car, which I thought was really cool Yeah, this partnership also as we know with huge triple-A titles is it took two years to develop this Which you know in our timelines for a lot of the marketing activations we do like that is not even on the table But when you do go this deep it does take time and The question becomes like why did they do this right like what what was the main purpose is targeting? They chose wild rift over the PC version because of the audience and It's smaller but more valuable to Porsche because they got these insights on these stats of the players that actually play rift those players are three times more likely to be high net worth individuals gamers and The players who follow the franchises are 33% more likely to consider Porsche in their next Vehicle purchase So it really is not really going after like the masses It's just going after a core audience that they know has a higher likelihood to convert and they took the IP and they worked it in in such a way that it's gonna be top of mind and like Engaged with over time with that player base. So a higher higher likelihood of actually converting and selling Porsche, which is expensive car and a lot of reasons I love this. I Talk to me like what you're taking on this Well, first of all I just love so much the the data point around being 33% more likely to consider Porsche because it just Absolutely obliterates the argument that gamers are dudes in their mom's basement with Cheetos on their fingers. There you go Like wake up their buying Porsche's 2 is I love that they took the opportunity to not just do a branded skin But do it in a way that was kind of unique that did something for the player in game But then they like closed that ecosystem by also doing something Content wise and also doing something with their own car. So yeah, it just like it wasn't just one little opportunity that they took and did A quick thing in game they really took advantage of the entire ecosystem. So I think this is awesome Yeah, I was impressed. I don't play that game. So it wasn't I my radar, but I saw it creeping through LinkedIn I was like wait what I had to take a second look and I was like this is actually a very clever. So yeah, it's a good one. All right, what's our last story? Okay, hi note and another one that I think is a good mythbuster kind of a kind of a take. So Roblox just announced that starting on June 8th They are going to change how they pay creators. It's going to be a 42% increase in payouts for 18 plus content That's coming right off of their latest earnings calls where they talked about how they're seeing a lot of Adult audience growth as people are growing up. They are growing up with the platform So they dropped a few stats. I think are awesome 18 to 34 audiences up 50% year over year The group that already monetizes about 15% higher than under 18 users because They have money and they don't have to ask their parents for it and 26% of age verified users are in that 18 plus group. So for me, this is just an awesome one I still feel like I unfortunately get in a lot of conversations with brands who are like Roblox's for kids And they're not wrong. It is absolutely for kids But there's a lot of fun stuff happening in Roblox and I think this incentive to creators sends a signal around where Roblox is placing bets on how the platform is going to continue to evolve. I also think you know It busts this idea that one people grow up they move on to totally new things like sure There will be people who are moving to new platforms, but I do think there's a behavior that sticks and you know focus group of one not the best reference point, but you know I used to play the Sims growing up If I play a video game if I have like the amount of time it takes for me to like go into the Sims and actually get in I like to play it still right? It's got that feel and now you have a generation who have grown up on Roblox And they're taking that same kind of idea with them. So I think it's a nice signal to the world It's it's a harder message to stand behind when people say It's a kid's platform when you start to hear stats like this Yeah, I think the biggest problem is the shifting public perception right because of Roblox Traditionally has really looked low-fi It's the only You know sort of a visual connection that a lot of society has is looking at a very young kid on the tablet or a smartphone like with the Roblox character But yeah, I think it is slowly becoming more of a you know pop culture entertainment platform And more older audiences are starting to figure out how to like engage with content there But it is an uphill battle because they have to really shift that they're they keep You know sharing data points and you know And it does that's that's a helpful But like you want to get to that point where it's like you see someone who you Trust and you're surprised that they're doing something on Roblox and you're like oh Yeah, we need to have those moments for people to be like oh, I get it. You know what I mean? I also feel like they have like a trial issue where you know Working with brands on Roblox and oftentimes having to Educate agency teams on Roblox so often. I just say like go make an account and just try to do something for a little bit Get in there and try and see what you think and it's been so funny throughout the duration of different client projects where You know, we'll be building something and I I now have some co-workers that are my my friends on Roblox and It'll be like 11 30 at night and I get on and I'm like oh shoot I just dropped into Grow a garden and I'm like right next to my co-worker and you know Somebody who told me three weeks ago that they didn't have any idea what Roblox is about and now they're out like harvesting fruit at 11 30 p.m It's like I think they love that story Yeah, they need you need to take the first jump and I don't I would be curious and I don't know if this data exists like What is the percentage of people that aged up into Roblox versus like net like I did not grow up in an in a Roblox era So like are you winning people like me who didn't grow up in a Roblox era or are you only winning the age up? I think it's both because you look at example like grow a garden or not grow a garden Dress to impress like dress to impress brought in a ton of new users that yeah, they just came to play that fashion game They did not come to be a part of Roblox But once they that game converted them and now they're like oh, I now understand this black one. It was their gateway That's the gateway But yeah, it's definitely exciting times to keep watching Roblox It's inspiring to see how much effort they're putting into the platform and the growth so very cool But let's keep this train moving. Let's go to real-time review (upbeat music) - So for our real time review today, I know you are tromping at the bits. You are a avid Star Wars fan. I personally have just started my Star Wars journey after being berated by many friends that I hadn't seen it. - Well, I will spare you the berating. I was about to do that, but knowing that people had told you-- - Thank you. It's been completed. - Okay. - But this is super cool. So we've got Star Wars in Fortnite. Tell me a little bit more about what we've got. So this is like a big moment for Fortnite and Disney and Star Wars. This is coming off of the big May of the Fourth holiday that just happened. And this is part of Disney's big investment into Epic Gates. They poured a ton of money and energy into this. This is one of the first huge activations at scale where they're taking the entire Star Wars lore and IP and infusing it into the platform officially. In the past, there's been a few skin drops here and there, but this is like, basically launching the IP across the entire platform. So we're talking about weapons and skins, but the most important thing is the asset pack. So Fortnite being a UGC gaming platform, especially on the UEF inside. What it is is it's all the library. It's all of the art. It's all the vehicles, the weapons, the characters, the environments, the art, the assets. All of this is available for the creators on UEFN to build their own Star Wars games. So this is to me like mind blowing 'cause this is the type of thing that I would like think about as a kid when I'm like, be falling asleep and being like, wouldn't it be cool if there was a different story about Hoth and we could do this thing and, you know, but like then there's no, you take no action. Whether you're like, you can write a little fan fiction thing or you can like draw some pictures or whatever, right? But it's like you couldn't really like make something in 3D quickly and then share it with a lot of people. Now you can. And so I checked out a couple of the games. There's like, I don't know, like 50 games or something that all launched and with some of the top UEFN creators. So I jumped into the Droid Tycoon game by Future Crash. And this is like a pretty cool game. It's definitely leveraging the Tycoon mechanic as we know works pretty well. I'm platform like Roblox in Fortnite, but it's great. I jumped in. It's very intuitive of what to do. The 3D arts fantastic. It literally looks beautiful. You know, it's the Unreal Engine, but all of the art and the assets that are from the Star Wars world are brought in and leveraged. It looks super nice. Tycoon game, you just run through complete tasks and keep building out your sort of world there. Yeah, very intuitive, very cool. I want more time to go and play more. -Can we just like shout out Disney for a second? Because they are up against this kind of monumental challenge of balancing protecting their IP and navigating a world where increasingly consumers expect to be able to play with it? -That's a great point. And I think traditionally Disney's been very, I don't know the right word, apprehensive to leaning into UGC. I think they've been pretty tolerant on the UGC video side. And when it comes to UGC gaming, they've been conservative to say the least. But this big swing indicates that they're trying to understand it and they're trying to play ball. I mean, literally we're in a situation where if you wanted to tomorrow, you can spin up your own Star Wars game on Fortnite. Publish it. -You're a little more watching first. But. -Yeah, well, look, if you've seen a couple movies, you've got enough bases to kind of like do your own little spin-off. But the point is you can make money on that based on engagement and in-game sales and a cut goes to Disney, cut goes for that cut goes to you. But like that's available today. And that's a huge step forward. And I think a lot of IP holders and owners have to think outside the box and approach UGC gaming with a different mindset. And Disney here is a bit of a leader, which is pretty cool. -Yeah. And I know that they just had their earnings call come out. They're doing pretty well. And as part of that, the new CEO was just talking about, I think video games got a drop in that conversation about the importance of continuing to invest in technology and these spaces and seeing them truly put their money where their mouth is. So to speak is awesome. I think this is really, really cool stuff. -Yeah. And so to sum it up, you know, what I like is the fact that this has massive scale. And they've really just opened up the floodgate. And I think there's so much creativity. If you look through the titles, people are leveraging all kinds of different game types. They're using the Disney IP. They're being super creative. I love that. As far as things that I didn't like, there really wasn't much to be honest. Like I think this is just such an awesome opportunity. -You've got your Star Wars Rose glasses on. -I guess so. I mean, what are you going to complain about? It's like you have this massive IP that's so coveted and it's just been given to the community, you know? And people can be really creative and leverage it and benefit. So I don't know. You know, I didn't have enough time to go in and play like all these different games to see how good the, you know, the quality is but the game that I played, the Droid Tycoon was awesome. So I'll say that in the last. -I know he also did. They also did a Watch Party Island, which was really-- -No, not yet. That is coming. -Oh. -Yeah. So that's for to promote the new Mandalorian and Grogu film. -Which I like to do. -Let's talk-- can we just like briefly talk about that? Because I think that's also really interesting. Like you're delivering a movie trailer inside of a game. How does that change the value of like my-- we talk a lot with Zoe about the value of certain interactions in a gaming environment versus somewhere else. So if I were to just like half watch a trailer while I'm leaned back on my couch and it's on the TV or I like catch a little bit of an a pre-roll, how is that different than essentially getting to see a movie trailer delivered inside a game and you are choosing to be there? -That's a good point. And we've done a lot of this work at Saw Horse like bringing trailers and different film IP into these spaces. When it comes to a trailer, I think if it's as simple as a video trailer that you just slap on a wall, there's a little bit of a similarity because you're playing a game and you're engaged, but you're engaged doing something else. And it's like then you have to kind of look over at the trailer. And it's a similar type of impression. -Sure. But I do think you can get creative with it. And I know they're planning to do a lot of creativity and things that we've done in this well is like when you create 3D art and assets and visuals that are in line with the trailer or adding layers of gamification with the trailer itself. So like when you can actually play along with the trailer that you're watching, that I think is way more valuable and has much deeper engagement and more value than seeing a trailer. But it does require you to create some additional layers of engagement. -Sure. Yep, that makes sense. -And so yeah, just to wrap it up, they crushed it. Was it innovative? I would say yes and no. We've seen this before on Epic with like Teenage Mutant Institutes and a few other IPs of like opening it to the community. So it's not like a revolutionary idea. But it is innovative for a massive company like Disney and a massive IP like Star Wars to be this open. So I'll just say that. -It's innovative and I think it moves the whole industry forward. -Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, they're a leader. Now people look at that and go, well, Disney did it with Fortnite, so we could do it over here. So excited for that. But let's move on to our interview with Zoe soon, head of creator and gaming at the interactive, advertising Bureau, better known as the IAB. Over the past 15 years, Zoe has been at the forefront of digital media's biggest transformations from the rise of OTT and subscription media to the evolution of gaming and the creator economy as major advertising channels. Today, she leads the creator and gaming vertical at IAB, where she's built a multi-million dollar revenue engine and founded Playfronts, the first and only advertising marketplace dedicated to gaming. And later this year, she's launching creator fronts, bringing that same marketplace model but to the creator economy. But beyond the marketplaces, Zoe is doing something arguably even more important. And that's helping establish the standards and framework that make advertising and gaming measurable. Trustworthy and scalable. Because right now brands want in on gaming. Everyone's typed on it. But without common standards for viewability, brand safety, and audience measurement, the space really still feels like the Wild West. Zoe and the IAB are helping build that rulebook. So let's get into our interview with Zoe at Saw Horse Headquarters in LA. (upbeat music) All right, Zoe, thank you so much for joining us. We're excited to have you. Let's start with talking about the IAB and some background. A lot of our listeners might not be familiar with what the IAB is, Howard. functions and I guess if you would answer, why is it important to brands? Thank you for having me. So excited to be here. The IB is a standard setting body for the digital advertising industry. We have 45 chapters globally and we're probably most well known for back when the internet came about and we needed standard ad units, the rising stars, the crown units, all of those sort of standard ad units. The IB came out and just turbocharged the digital advertising space. Because it was figured out for the old advertising space, right? Like measurement and value, it's like everyone knew it. And digital was just like another beast. So being able to create a marketplace where everyone had the same sort of standard ad sizes and ways of measuring really made a huge difference. This matters a lot for the emerging space. Well, I'm a bit biased because I lead emerging marketplaces at the IB but it really matters because it's the wild west in some of these spaces, right? Everyone's measuring things differently, everyone's defining things differently. So to unlock enterprise budgets, you really need trust and transparency and predictability and that's what we're all about. Super important. And I think when you talk about that era that we came from, we lived in a time at one point where TV was something you sat back and watched and radio was something you listened to. Now we're in the prime example of that right now in this environment, right? A podcast could be something you watch could be something you listen to. Gaming is something that you play, but also you watch content around you create content around we have this really fragmented media environment and these audiences are existing all over them simultaneously. So big challenge, I think, for the work that you guys are doing. Where does gaming and interactive media start to fit into that picture? And would you say brands are able to keep up with where that attention is going? Yeah, that's a great point. I think of that. That movie, everything everywhere all at once. Great fill. Yeah. Attention is getting fragmented. I think what this means for gaming and interactive media, it's two things, right? The second screen is now becoming the first screen. So everyone's multitasking with two maybe more screens at once. And you've probably heard Netflix showrunners talk about background content where they're sort of dumbing down content a little to account for the multitasking and other screens that that's happening. And with interactive media, there's so much more engagement. So now that attention is so much more fragmented and there's so much demand for consumer attention, we're seeing a shift from reach and scale to depth and connection. And in a game, you're most of as a great way to do that. You've got the fandom. There's so much more of your senses in gauge when you're doing that. It's not a lean back activity. It's a it's a lead in. It's an engaging. Right. You're also doing two way communication. In the case of creative marketing, which I also put in that bucket, your consumers become your brand ambassadors because then they put your brand on their face or talk about your product. So I think I think we're really seeing audiences shift in where they're going. And right now some brands are definitely keeping up, but I would say brands are still sort of following where audiences used to be because if you look at linear ad spend, I think it's that $55 billion at the moment. And ad spending gaming is about what $10 billion. So it's 5x and 95% of general for our gamers. Yeah. There's so much more attention happening in interactive media and gaming, right? Yes. Yeah. And the quality of attention as well. Like you can be multitasking or you've gone to the kitchen to make up a tee when the commercial's on. You do that in gaming and you've like lost your life. So yeah, I think I think we will start to see this shift, but it's it's been happening a little slowly. Yeah, it's definitely slow. We're feeling that, but viewers don't wake up. But I guess there's this concept of that everyone's a gamer, you know, at these days, yeah, you know, because everyone has access to different types of games, low-lift games, mobile games, right? And there's this perception that for some reason a lot of brand marketers think that the gamer is just like the 20-year-old in the basement, the boy. The cheater does. Yeah. But really, like everyone is a gamer. So I want to get your take on that. But also I want to ask you, are you a gamer? And what do you play games? What games do you play? Absolutely. I play games. I like a lot of the casual games. So all the puzzle games, obviously, were all the New York Times games. Yeah. Mostly mobile. You play on. Do you have console or anything? Mostly mobile. Yeah. But yes, everyone's a gamer and 48% of females game, 83% of that, those 43% 48% are moms. Yeah. And we honor moms of the household spenders. So I really think the term game has become so loaded. And we really need to step away from that term because they're just consumers, right? And yeah, the fact that it's almost parody that half half a game is a female. And there was so many different forms of gaming as well. Like you said, like you get people in different states and different modes. So I think that term is sort of doing us a disservice. Minds me of the metaverse. Yeah. I feel like that term, long term, did us a little bit of disservice as well. Yeah. This blacklisted now. Yeah. And it seems like the gamer is like just it's it's not isn't properly cover the you know, the the amount and the amount of people that are actually consuming. It's almost like the interactive consumer. Yeah. It would be a better turn. We wouldn't call somebody like a social media user. Like nobody's defined by the way that they consume media channels. And it's a little weird that we put that title on on one type of media. Great point. You know, video watcher versus podcast listener. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. versus gamer. Wow. Well, a lot of what you were saying earlier resonated with me as far as how we start to measure and make sense of this space for brands. And I'm tasked every day with having conversations with big brands around the performance story, right? So a lot of times brands are defaulting to the same value equation that they've been using for some of the more traditional media channels, things like CPM, things like impression, reach to start to justify their investment in the space. And so my question for you is what's your POV on that? Is that the right framework? Should they be using those types of metrics or are we just forcing a new medium into the old measurement model? That's such a common point of tension with new media and new channels. And you're sort of torn between needing comparability to, you know, existing channels and world that buyers know. They want a benchmark it. Yes. Because they're like, cool. I'm downspending this much money because I know what I get here. If I do the same thing here, is the value still there? Yes. And do I, at what point do I shift my budgets? Yeah. So that Apple Stapples comparison is important. But it's also important that we don't shoehorn new, innovative media and reduce it down to sorts and dots, you know, TV. So I think where where we need to start focusing is where's the common denominator? So not too long ago, we defined the viewability standards for gaming environments. So taking into account lighting, occlusion, angle, like if the Nike swish is at a 45% angle, can you see it? And is that in view starting there and then building out to the the nice to have's, which is also what the gaming measurement framework that we released did it sort of like here, the minimum things you should expect. And then here are the nice to have. So it sort of gives the the one to one parity and then gives you the additional things that can bring insight and all like if your brand is getting talked about in gaming communities, so there's a lot of value and sentiment analysis that can be done there. So you don't want to lose that, but that's in addition to everything else. So we you mentioned earlier that like we just really haven't unlocked all of the budgets and we haven't had that shift from brands like thinking like let's just go into gaming in a bigger way. What is the big unlock to see to that to have that actually come to life? Is it measurement predominantly or are there other factors that are important? We're asking selfishly as people for sure. I'm to give brands do to do more in gaming. We want to do more. I think it's probably three things. So I mean the audience, the attention, the scale is all there. Like gaming is bigger than Hollywood and the music industry is combined. But in terms of brand spend, it's like the disc discrepancy is really really large. It's it's kind of obvious, but one of the huge barriers is education. So I think we talked about the game of stereotype that still exists. I think that is shifting now with platforms like Roblox and other things of reinventing how gaming is perceived. And also as boomers sort of age out of the workforce and out of those decision maker roles and millennials who grew up with Nintendo and gaming, growing to those roles, I think it would be more normalized. But we have a job to do to sort of do education, measurement definitely having common definitions and the infrastructure that is supported will be a huge thing. And then the last thing is just sort of simplifying the space. Because if you when you say gaming, are you talking casual games? Are you talking about e-sports, sponsorships? Are you talking about mobile banners? There's so many different ways. So how do we simplify it for brands and make it easy for for them to identify the different business models available to them. at the job of the IAB? Yes, that is definitely one of the jobs. We're actually working on a project called the CMOs Guide to Gaming. That's going to break it down for decision makers in a really high level way of like, this is why it matters here are the main ways you can activate in gaming, here are the broad measurement capabilities and the audiences that you reach because we produce a lot of like very dense specs and buy as guides and all that but decision makers aren't going to read those. So producing that, having that circulate places like can where all these decision makers are, I think will make a dent in that direction. It's interesting the semantics conversation has come up a few times. Like, feels like we're desperately in need of like a linguist to come in and just solve all of our challenges around the way that we have conversations in this space. Super interesting. A monumental challenge, I think you're up against, of with a space that is so fragmented, you have console, you have mobile, you have PC, you have cloud gaming, you have VR, right? The list goes on and on. How do you actually get an entire industry to start to agree on this common framework and in your total honest opinion, where are we in that journey? That is a great question. And we've had debates of is gaming a channel or is it a horizontal that cuts across all? Because if you look at something similar, so sport has the same sort of complexity, there's so many different types of sports. But people don't really have a problem with that. So what is it about gaming? And we sort of toyed with saying, well, you can do display advertising and gaming, you can do video and gaming, there's water, there's so trying to find those. You can build a custom integration. We're bringing 3D assets for the brand and integrating into the core loop. So the store, with the gaming creator, I mean, it's endless. Yes. So simplifying those. And I think was the IAB UK that came out with a framework, one point that was in around and away from the game. So another way to simplify it. One way that we're working towards that is I run a games board at the IAB that's invite only. It's a lot of leading gaming companies that act as sort of like a steering committee or an advisory group for me and help, what are we going to do to move the industry forward? So not just the IAB, but working with the industry and these representatives on how do we make it simpler for brands? And it goes down to things like how we're showing up in planning tools, because it's all great. But when Suzy Media Plan sits down to execute a buy, the drop-downs there are going to let her do it. So the lots of things to consider. In your opinion, what are the biggest blockers that are preventing us from getting to that next step? If I were to boil it down to three, it would be education. So the existing misperceptions of gaming, infrastructure and measurement. So how do you cut through? Like what's the strategy? The million dollar question. Nick, how are you not letting me off easy today? Please, please. It's all this. So I think it's really simplifying it and looking for those comment on it. So we have the ability. We have a measurement framework on here the things that you should be asking for. And I think it's really going to come for when the brands start demanding it. Brands and agencies really do it like demanding it of platforms and vendors. Right. Where it's like gaming or interactive media is too big to ignore. We have to be there. But I also demand measurement. And I need this now. So the pressure is-- and the interest is all swelling. It's already kind of like that. I was going to say, I feel like it's growing. Oh, yeah, it's there. Like it's like a volcano that's waiting to erupt. Like you're feeling the lava and the smoke signals starting to come. But your feet aren't burning yet. But I think the feet will start burning soon. And that puts pressure on everyone to kind of prove that value. And especially all the amazing work that you guys are doing at the IAB, it's awesome. Yeah. We just-- just on that, we just released our internet. Add revenue and pull it with PwC. And gaming is up 13.9. I was 14% year over year. So there is movement. I think we saw a huge hockey stick after COVID because everyone was inside. And gaming just got this great revival. And we sort of saw that normalized afterwards, which made people sort of question a space. But it was just normalizing after a big hockey stick. So I think we will see it continue to rise. And with all the work that you've done on the gaming measurement framework, how has adoption been going on that? And are there certain groups or people that are embracing it? And are there any gaps that you're seeing? So definitely seeing it in RFPs, which is nice. And just getting anecdotal feedback from partners saying that it helps the conversation. It's sort of something that people can ground around. I think now it's just like getting gaming out of those experimental budgets and having some sort of representation in the media mix. Personally, from an agency perspective, I mean, it is so valuable to have something to point back to, to just say, this is the ruler. This is what's decided upon because it is such a gray area. And I think that ambiguity is really challenging. And ambiguity and advertising is always a challenge and strategy and so much of the creative type of work that we do. But personally, I think that kind of work is invaluable. Well, that might lead well into my last question, which is hopefully you have an optimistic take here. Do you genuinely believe that we can get to a world where gaming has the same scale and the same standardization as traditional media? And if so, how long do you think that's going to take? Unequivocally, yes. Otherwise, I would not be doing the job that I'm doing. Yes. I'm a brief service. Definitely. And I don't even say that as an optimist. I just say that logically. If you look at younger generations, media habits, I think boomers watch around four hours of linear TV. And if you look at Gen Z, Gen Alpha, it's under an hour. Just by necessity, where audiences are going, we're going to have to get it together and work it out. So I think by necessity, we will get there. In terms of timing, I think we'll see start seeing even more significant shifts within the next five years. Total parity with other media would probably be looking at a decade just to get all the infrastructure built and everything going. But it's going to be gradually picking up. Yeah. And to your point, it feels like it will be this ramp and just growing each year, more brands coming in, more standardization, more education, more understanding that. Yes. Video games are fun to watch and they're fun to play. Yeah. So much opportunity here. But so, thank you so much for coming on, brands and play. We really appreciate the work that the IAB is doing. And we need, we need you to keep going so that you can break down the walls. But even in the years that you've been there, I'm sure you've seen the growth. So it's exciting to see it continue in growth. Yeah, something just having playfronts. Exactly. We will be there. All right. Awesome. Thank you, Joey. Thanks, God. Let's go back to the show. [MUSIC PLAYING] Love that conversation, such important work that Zoe's doing and what an amazing brain she has. Yeah. No, she's definitely sharp. The IAB is doing cool work. This is awesome that there is an organization that is actually doing and helping figure out the stuff that we're bitching about all the time. They're actually on the floor. Why important stuff? It's not like the glitzy, glimy stuff. We do so much glitz glam. But they're the people that are just putting their head down and doing the quiet stuff that really moves the needle for us. Right. Arguably not the sexy stuff. It's like, what's an impression worth? And what does that mean to the media industry that I can fall asleep as we keep going through this? But it actually is so important because that will unlock all the media dollars, all the energy, and everyone who's looking at gaming and being like, that looks cool, but I don't know how do I measure it. How do I-- They're on the fence. IAB is the company that's going to push the entire machine over. So that's awesome. And I just want to give a shout out to Zoe and the IAB play fronts that are going to be happening in New York in September. I'm going to be out there. I highly recommend our listeners check it out because it's an amazing event. All right. Last piece, should I hit into my hit, Miss and Bet? Hit, Miss Bet. I'm so excited. So my hit Netflix has been on a journey with gaming. They've tried out a lot of things. They've been pretty open about their recalibrations as they've been figuring it out. And I'm making a bet or a hit, so to say. Well, I guess it has to be my hit. My hit is that playground is going to be the moment that this all clicks. So playground launched April 28th. It's a standalone kids app. And it's got games built around the IPDA families and kids already love. It's free with your subscription, no ads, no in-app purchases. And I think it's a hit because it feels like they stopped trying to just be a gaming company and started using interactive play as a retention tool for the people that are already on Netflix and that they are the own. They had kids content. It was doing really well. It's their second most watched category around the world for two straight years Really smart then to take the thing that's performing the best and just basically give people a new way to interact with it I'll also add that I think the ad free framing is really smart It's not just something that I think parents will feel good about but it's kind of a statement like for their youngest audiences Netflix is saying like your attention is too valuable to risk with this kind of like Ad tier and so that's a good point. No, this is this is my hit for the week I'm with that hit. What's your miss? Okay, my miss is a bit broader. It's not tied to anything specific other than maybe the general sentiment of We went a little doom and gloom the beginning about AI and everything. I'm gonna go a little doom and gloom Most marketing budgets are under a lot of pressure right now. We got tariffs. We've got oil prices You know 45% of advertisers plan to cut ad spend this year according to our friends Thanks to Zoe at the IAB so when they look at what they plan to cut 24% said they plan to cut gaming and I guess that doesn't terribly surprise me I think oftentimes gaming gets kind of put out on the side as it's like nice to have extra Awesome thing and and not thought of as a core part of the marketing ecosystem But that 25 24% number feels even bigger when you zoom out a bit and think about the fact that gaming was already only getting Less than 5% of global media investment before it got cut So I think this is a miss. I think that when you compare gaming to some of your other channels where you're trying to capture attention You've got these people that are super leaned in the scale there is massive I just I think it's a miss to cut budgets and gaming. I agree definitely a miss But I get it because you know advertise it to like play it safe You know, we don't have all this fun money to like test all this cool stuff and be everywhere It's like just spend the money on what you know works So you don't get fired and it'll piss off the CMO so like It makes sense right and that's why it's so important for the IAB because they're gonna be like oh man I can get all this engagement on the game on the gaming side, but I don't know how to measure that our benchmark it to like our Traditional stuff. So it's it's too much of a risk for me to do that right now. I get where their head is at So we just need the proof and the measurement and the value Because I don't think anyone's looking at getting in saying that's a waste of time. I think they're saying It's interesting, but I I don't I can't measure it in the same way that I Is that a story? Yeah, there you go. You said it. All right. What's your bet? My bet is everybody sick of hearing about GTA 6 yet Well as long as you're not talking about AI. I'm down for whatever. I am not talking about AI. So my bet GTA 6 An article just came out and take to confirmed what I think a lot of us who work in the brand Brand world who have been trying to figure out How we could do something with GTA 6? They just confirmed you can't because it's a fictional world everything in its fictional and they are going to keep doing that and I actually think that's right But my bet is that that is not going to stop smart brands from owning a cultural moment around it 100% also I think that yes traditionally within the GTA world they've done these fake spoof Brands, you know, I brought them in they're gonna continue to that. I do think it would be weird to be like cool Now we're just gonna partner with Nike and put Nike in there, but total your point. I agree. It's all of the The sort of adjacent Content creation that brands are gonna attach to and also if There actually is this UGC component. There's nothing to stop Brands from building and sharing and being part of that conversation, but it won't be part of the main game Which is what you're saying Yeah, and I think there's we talk about I think Zoe literally just talked about this like a round game in game I think there will be a lot of like a round game thoughts of of what brands can do here I think smart ones are gonna do it in a way that's culturally connected and some people are gonna try and like not do it right But I think that if you truly understand the culture of the game you understand the lore the characters where it takes place like There are fun and smart ways to do that whether it's social content Whether it's you know finding little ways to Portray the environment or portray the characters in a way that's like a wink nod I think it's gonna be cool to see because it's gonna be such a cultural moment like it's gonna be a cultural moment Probably bigger than the Super Bowl and I'm maybe that's my bet too It's a two-part bet. I think I would I would put money on those bets And yeah, I think there's so much opportunity for creative marketing around this especially given how The IP is so bizarre, right? It's super violent. It's super massive. They don't traditionally have real brands attached So like there's all the best creative agencies in the world do your best like come hard with ideas We'll make a GTA brief right now. That's like my assignment to everybody and there you go I also think it's a great exercise and getting People to think outside of in-game is the only way to activate like I think there's still a little bit of a perception of like Well, we can't be in games and we're not doing anything with GTA 6 like No, that is like actually what makes your brief really fun and really interesting is like how do you connect with people around the GTA 6 launch without doing something in game? You figured out a way around it to attach it to it, you know, which is awesome And you know what this is actually better because I think there's gonna be so much demand to get in GTA 6 at launch and the answer will be You can't so it will force everyone to be like well, what can we do? It'll it really force this sort of adjacent type of marketing which is a part of gaming that we do every single day But I think it's kind of open and everyone's eyes to that and hopefully push them to activate it in that way Exactly can people leave the ideas in the comments please if they have them please drop in comments But that's a wrap on this week's show Morian. Thank you so much for being our amazing show host and I'm really looking forward to covering May with you and the insights that you bring to this show so I appreciate that Yeah, thank you Nick. This has been awesome. I'm so glad I get to come back and Hopefully if I if I nailed this week you'll help me back next week and the week after that and the week after that um you're already locked in It doesn't matter how you perform. It's just Speaking of next week We are going to be at the think LA 2026 gaming brunch and you're speaking I'm speaking. Yeah, I'm speaking with our friends from overwolf which will be awesome. What else do we have going next week? Yeah, so we're gonna be at the gaming brunch which is awesome with think LA and we have a special guest We're not gonna tell you who that is, but you will see them next week on the show I love it if you're enjoying brands in play Please make sure to follow the show every week. We're breaking down how brands platforms and creators operate inside gaming and immersive media That's it for this week That's a wrap. Thank you Morgan Edward. Please read us out And that was brands in play. Thank you for joining the podcast where we explore You're most of marketing and the people who are leading it. I showed today was produced and edited by myself It would rig you alongside our creative producer Dr. Giovanni Casamero. We share the joiners every week for brand new episodes The views thoughts and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the hosting guests and do not necessarily reflect the views policies or positions of host employers The information shared during this podcast is based on personal experience and public available information And is intended for informational purposes only any references to specific platforms companies or partnerships are made in a personal capacity and do not imply endorsement Partnership or official association with any organization mentioned