Brandi Carlile

Welcome welcome welcome to armchair expert. I'm Dan Shepherd. I'm joined Billy Padman. Hi my voice broke there. Oh Very because it's a ding ding ding. Oh my gosh. It's a ding ding ding to the episode. It is her voice breaks in one of her most famous songs Really good job Brandy Carlisle Brandy Carlisle is an 11-time Grammy award winning singer songwriter and producer Our albums are by the way. I forgive you in these silent days the story returning to myself Currently on the human tour for dates and tickets go to Brandy Carlisle.com Guys, I loved her. She was this was such a fun. Yeah, I really really loved her and she sings for us Yes, she sings for us. Please enjoy Brandy Carlisle I So happy to have you and I'm really excited to talk to you guys. This is awesome. I purposely was not around Yeah, the states were really high. You just met Anna. Yeah. Yeah, she was great. Okay, she's the main zone nervous to meet you She's never asked in eight years to meet anybody. She was like I have to she's a huge fan. Oh, man Well, I have this thing called girls just one a weekend every year. Yeah, Mexico. Yeah It's like life-changing for a lot of people because you get lured into it thinking it's a festival But really it's like a whole experience. You got to come. Okay. You got to have a whole female performers, right? Yeah, our men welcome men are treated like Absolute celebrities. Oh, oh my god, the way that we basically hoist you onto our shoulders. I care you Come to our festival. Oh, wow. Okay, now I want to go. I love you. I have merch for just men that says like I survived Girl, let's sing. Let's hear it for the boys. Oh, yeah, that's right. Okay. I think you do great there I just think when men will leave the country to attend a festival with all women or non-binary headliners. It's like yeah Those men are rad. Yeah, good. Good. Good. Good. Good. I was reading about it and you must know that we heard the most sincere and Authentic review of this festival from Anna. Oh, yes, she got back and I had a million questions. I'm like, is it a lesbian festival? And she's like, yes and no. Not overtly, but yes. Yeah, a lot of gay men are starting to come too. Okay, cool. There's just like whole contingency of Really sappically focused gay men that are really enjoying. Okay. This sounds like the happiest group imaginable to be honest. I think that's why it's Life is pretty good. Yeah, that's awesome. Kristen has described it. She's not been but just given all the feedback from Anna. She said, you know, it's the polar opposite of Woodstock 99 if you're trying to think of it. Be any more in one way or another. It's a response to that. Yeah, but you saw Lilith Fair when you were a kid. Yeah, you went to the Lilith Fair festival. Yep, that's actually what I think got me wanting to do this was that yeah, what age were you when you went to that 17 so so formative. Yeah, I had this one experience in particular where I was just little Scallywag kid all sunburned and drinking Mountain Dews like these big refillable Mountain Dews all day. And I like took my bucket of Mountain Dew to have it refilled to the Mountain Dew stand and there was this lesbian standing in line behind me and she goes, honey, what are you Getting to drink? And I was like a Mountain Dew and she goes, you need some water and you're sunburned. Oh, she put sunscreen on my shoulder. She made me feel my bucket of one head. I was like, but then I got older and I was like, I need a festival like that. You know, yeah, that's like we're taking care of each other. Looking out. That is the opposite of Woodstock. Exactly. It does make me think what you tell your children when you have Children, which is like, okay, if you're alone, you find a police officer. Yeah, you cannot find a police officer, which you Likely will not find a woman with kids. Yeah, we say, you find a mom. Yeah. A single one. Find a lesbian. If you can find a dude in a Corvette with a shirt off. Yeah. You might as well just run into the street. Um, where was the Lillith? Was it in Gasworks Park? Oh, good question. You know Seattle. I'm drinking a lot of 40s at gas works. Okay. Yeah, I did it a girl for nine years. That was from Mary'sville. Okay. No, it's at the gorge. Oh, perfect. In fact, that's where it started in 1997. Perfect. And that was the year Tracy Chapman was on that line of Sarah and the end to go girl. It was amazing. Erica Badu was Shenato Connor was there the year. I love Erica Badu. Oh my god. Ravensdale. Ravensdale. What a Dale's in that area. There might be a Dale. Yeah. There's a Dale. It seems almost impossible because it's 28 miles from Seattle. Yet it has a population of 500 people. Well, Seattle's like that. It's a bit like Anchorage in a way where you can land in Seattle. Get yourself like the most delicious silky cappuccino you've ever drank and then half an hour later, see a Bear. Yeah. It'll be potentially lost. Yeah. That's what I love about it. That is cool. The history of the town fascinated me because it's a coal mining town. You know, an associate Washington with coal mining. You kind of can. I mean, it was one of the first in terms of that Ravensdale is a bit of a subsidiary of another town called Black Diamond, which is a neighboring town and actually Loretta Lynn lived there. Oh, wow. Yeah. For a time. And yeah, when I was a kid, we were run around. There's coal mines everywhere. You got to watch out for mine shafts and everything. Yeah. I got my last spanking for playing in a mine shaft. Oh gosh. I'm so jealous. I loved a mine shaft. When I was a kid, we liked rock quarries because there was water in that mine shafts. They got water in them too. I bet that bottomless. Okay. So you like to flirt with danger if you're playing over there, you're a rascal a little bit. I would stand far away. I think Pharaoh is the right word. I think you need. Okay. So I grew up in a rural area too. And I will say, it's not necessarily what I wanted for my kids, but boy, do I cherish the amount of we were just lighting stuff on fire. I mean, you're allowed to do whatever came across your mind because there's no supervision and there's no one around to catch you. What parts of it don't you want for your kids? I again, this is probably rooted in all my own personal stuff, but it's like too much privacy out there. Too many places to hide. And just like I couldn't get caught light and shit on fire, adults were getting caught for stuff. And there's a general that part of it, I don't love. Yeah. No, you're exactly right. Look, and again, I would love to see dad on this, but where I was from, we had to have over indexed. We had a serial killer. It's small town. Every single person was molested. I know I just feel like it's safer here. Yeah. We don't do sleepovers. Yeah. A lot of people don't anymore. It's amazing. That is something about our generation having realized that maybe we all had too much freedom, whether we lived in a rural area or not. Yeah. I was trying to explain that to my kids. I'd be like, we would get on our bikes. We'll be eight o'clock in the morning. And we would maybe come home at some point after dark. And no one knew where we were, how we were getting money or candy. We're even curious. Didn't even ask you what your day was like. No. Yeah. It's crazy. And back to what's dangerous about it is like, I know you know, because I had it a million times. If my kids run into somebody dicey on the street, which they do, it's LA. There's what's almost people. They always have someone in sight they could yell to you. How many times when you're a kid in your out the woods or your summer and you come across an adult like a sold adult. And it's freaky. You know, there's nobody around. And this one of that's in the woods for some reason, too. You have a lot of those moments when you grow. I think rural. I do. And I didn't experience any significant traumas, but I can see the near misses now. How many times I got close to my battleship. Yeah. It's crazy. Like, I remember getting in this guy's truck that was like the town scary guy, but he told me that they were trout biting in this quarry. And I was like, no, that's an empty pot. This full of water. And he's like, no, there's a stream that's dumping Kokini into it. I'll show you right where they're biting. And I was like, I shouldn't get in your truck, but I want those Kokini. That's what you people do to go get drugs. Like I don't trust this guy, but I do want Kok. Kokini. Kokini. No, I did. And it was fine. But I mean near miss, right? Or even that the guy would put a 13 year old girl in his truck is horrifying without our parents permission. And then totally innocuously take her to show her where to catch trout. It's kind of unbelievable. You got lucky every time, but a lot of folks don't. So I actually know what you mean about that. Yeah, it's just that element. And again, I love it because I got through it. And I feel like I got all my confidence from that because I wasn't navigating these weird situations in dangerous ones and kids were getting hurt. And all that I think you enter the real world. I got to get a job and pay for bills. That's fine. The question is, how do you recreate those kinds of experiences for your kids without exposing them to the possibility of real trauma? You want them to have the street smarts we have. You want them to understand that not everybody is upper middle class or privileged in a way, but you can't falsify or recreate. I know I'm coming across as a kind of parent. We're actually quite free range. Really? Oh yeah, like we were in Denmark and we're like, cool. This is Tervolis Gardens. It's huge, but it's all encapsulated. We're like, have fun. We will see you in six hours. Here is a critical. You know, like go. And they're 11 and 13. At the time they were 9 and 11. Yeah. With other kids too, though, right? Well, they were split up. So yes, Lily went with maybe Lincoln, but Dali and Delta got it in their mind. They were going to set a record on a rollercoaster and they wrote it, you know, 60 times in a row or something. So they did split up. They weren't in other countries. I was like, yeah, it'll work out. They're smart. So I do have that side of me too. Yeah. And that's that's how you do it. You set up those situations of kind of control. Yeah. Chaos. It's within reason. Yeah. Okay. What were Mom and Dad like what were they up to? I think we share an addict father. Yeah. We make sure the actual one. We don't know. We don't know. I think I'd be cuter, but yeah, I got this bowman to that stick. That would be huge. What a revelation. I mean, this would go so well. Yeah. So I grew up in that kind of house. How old were they when they had you're the middle oldest daughter and the oldest grandchild on both sides. So I have all that superiority complex going for me and this enormous sense of responsibility to balance it out. So they were young. They were like 19 and 20 or 20 and 21 like right around there and they got married. Well, they were pregnant with me. And I'm not sure how long it took for my dad to sort of succumb to pretty severe alcoholism or if he kind of was already always drinking. I may actually know this, but I'm not recalling it off top of my head. But yeah, he had a really, really bad drinking problem. Most of my childhood was the employed. He was employed initially at the bowing and to come home. Yeah, but you got to build their plans. He got to stay sober. Yeah, you do. Of all the jobs we have people. That's a big one. You know, he would go and recovery and you would go to rehab and he would get to the point where he would even be somebody else's sponsor like he'd be cleaned that long. It made it that much more heartbreaking when he would fall. And would you see the signs percolating up? Did you ever feel like you had a sense of when those times were coming? No. And I always surprised me. And I actually think maybe now that I'm an adult. That's why I never let anything surprise me ever. I don't even like getting a birthday present. Don't like tell me what it is. Yeah. We'll talk about it. Uh-huh. Yeah. When he was drunk, what version of a drunk was it? Just unpredictable. He's really smart, hyperarticulate, kind of a victim of a overactive mind. And alcohol is obviously something that he used to sort of quell that. But because he's so naturally, he would not like this, but quite dogmatic and just marinating and rhetoric all the time. His sobriety would become a family religion. So we would be in Allen on allotine. We would be learning that we'd have the slogans. We had the one liners. And then he would fall off the wagon. And it would feel like we fell off a skyscraper. Well, yeah, your identity. Yeah. All of your identity. The whole friendship group is all members of A. I'm sure. I wish. I think that's part of the problem is that you know, you kind of described that small town situation. No, they were not. And my dad, he doesn't have like an ego, but he's kind of self-important in a way. And just if what is needed in theory, for an addict to stay clean is a positive friend group. He doesn't believe that applies to him. He's the one guy. He can do it on his own. I was like, when I entered recovery, they're like, you know, here's six things that work for people. And I'm like, let's see if I can do it with one. Yeah. Get three months, relapse, and then come back. I'm open to doing two of the things. I literally, I had to get worn down over a year. Yeah. Okay. I'll do all the fucking things. What I have to believe in God. Okay. Yeah. I need a sponsor. Well, it's still all about acceptance, acceptance that you have a real issue. Obviously that cliche or that acknowledgement is the hardest hurdle or problem is real. All of that is just to get to, yeah, I have a real problem. Because until then you're like, I have a little problem. I could probably just do with one of these things. There's an arrogance like the normal people need all this, but I'm exceptional. So what will I need maybe three of these things? Yeah. If any of them, and then there's to your point, like if you've seen that Leonardo DiCaprio meme, I love it so much where he's got that kind of face and he's holding a martini or whatever. The meme is like how wine drunks? Look at regular drunks. It's like, we drink wine. There's always someone worse. And then there's that cliche of the rock bottom thing. It feels like only time I've seen people get sober and like stay sober. This is just a theory from a person who's not an addict, by the way, but is that the shit has to really hit the fan? Oh, the saying in AA is like, you won't change until your hair is on fire. And then the other great things, which describes your father and myself, is like, you can have terminal uniqueness, which is I'm so unique. And I'm going to die because of it. Like I'm so special and different and unique. And I'm going to die of that uniqueness, but I don't care. I'd rather be that unique. Yeah. It's almost romantic. Yeah. And it feels like it has autonomy. You're in control. And it's not. Yeah, you're just unwilling. He's sober now though. He is awesome. For how long? A long time. I imagine we inherited the same thing, which is I was just like, you know, it's kind of dorey because it's this thing my dad's super into. And then the spirituality that would accompany it, right? It'd be like course of miracles and all these other things that tie in with it. What kind of feelings are you having about that whole element about the spiritual element? AA and the slogans and all that stuff was like, oh my God, this is embarrassing. I was already more religious than AA when we entered into AA. I was already really into Jesus. And where your parents are just you, you found it on your own. It's very weird. My parents were and my dad really was at a time. You know, he's like extremist. So he had extremist moments and is still an extremist. But I had my own path with it. Like I have terminal uniqueness. So I almost died when I was five from meningitis. I just got told so many times that I had like a purpose and that I was like saved for something and we were all intense and we were all going to church. And so I was like talking to Jesus all the time. I had a whole relationship with this Jesus thing that was kind of independent. I would elect to go to vacation, Bible school and I want us and youth group and stuff like that. I didn't have groups of friends based on it either. You weren't like idolizing some older kid that was super into it or anything. No. There's just that maybe that near death experience. Your heart stopped a few times during that. Yeah. Yeah. I was just like riding shotgun with his Jesus character. And kind of always have been through a lot of turmoil ups and downs in my life. And even things about me that would push me away from it and pull me back and recognize with a lot of gratitude that I have a very unique God perspective. And you still do. I still do. Yeah. Wow. What age were you when baptism was supposed to happen? I think like 16. Okay. So 16 were supposed to get baptized in what happened? There was this kind of troubling church actually in our town big surprise in the neighboring town black diamond. They kind of looked for troubled kids that were in troubled home situations and stressed out. You know, at this point, me and my brother already dropped out of high school. And we were in trouble cleaning buses at the bus barn and this church bus pulled up and told us to get in picked up my brother and I didn't go. They should told you steelhead were running. Yes, all they had to tell me was steelhead were running in the church. I got in the quarry guys. No, but I didn't go. Eventually I started going to the church, found it, compelling went to one of those camps. You know, they go to these camps. I don't think you guys have ever experienced these church camp things. I've not been to one, but kids went to them. A lot of friends. Okay, deeply emotional and transformative for young kids. These camps, these pastors, they're cool. They know how to talk to young people. They know how to play on our guilt and our sense of rebelliousness. And so it compelled me to want to get baptized. I felt that there was just too much in the world that I couldn't handle without making my faith official. Yeah, yeah. So I did the thing that you do in the evangelical church where the pastor like prays for everybody to close their eyes. And then somebody comes forward and I came forward. So I was going to get baptized and everybody's crying and clapping and it's all very charismatic. And you spend like a week taking classes and doing Bible study and spending time with the pastor and everything. And I had done it. I did all those things. And when the day came around for my baptism at the church, the whole town, which is like not many people and my parents, troubling as it all was, we were a unit. We were together. We were all a big dysfunctional family. I was out of the closet. I had a girlfriend and short of a haircut. Can we do one second on that? Being openly gay where I'm from in a rural area in the 80s, it would have been really hard. What was it different in Washington? No, I was the only one I knew. Yeah, where did you get the confidence to own that and not run from that at all? It's a really good question. It's just for me. It's just always been such an obvious part of who I am when I saw other gay people on TV, like Ellen DeGeneres coming out in the 90s when I saw gay artists like the end-to-go girls and I was a huge out-and-john fan and read all these biographies. And then there were movies that kind of touched on it, boys on the side and Philadelphia. I recognized there was a community or a culture outside of my life. That makes sense. Your heroes were all on day. Yeah. And all my friends were going through puberty and they wanted to make out with boys and I wanted to make out with girls. I just didn't want to make out with them. I couldn't deny that. But people do. But they do all the time. So it's amazing. I think when they're not in cities as well, I tend to even more. Definitely do. Yeah. I just have always been pretty oblivious to just not being cool. You know, my favorite pants growing up were like cow print jeans. I didn't know that people were laughing at my obsessions or my eccentricities. And so I was like, yeah, I'm gay. Everybody knows I'm gay. They're not dead into it. It's not a popular thing. I'm not taking a whole lot of shit for it, but I'm not being accepted either. And again, kind of oblivious to that. Just listen to the indigo girls love in my life. They probably don't mind that you're gay. They're nervous. Is every girl going to turn gay now? in the school. I don't think that kind of influenced my school. That would have been awesome. You're like, I was trying. When I talk to friends of mine who I adore that live in the South, the way they'll tell me that like Disney's goal is to convince all kids to be trans. I'm like, I think you think that. Like I do think you think that. Yeah, I think that's a real thought. Yeah. And I think similarly, like I think a lot of people back then were just like, yeah, I don't care what she does, but was she going to influence my daughter? Yes, this idea of a bad influence. Yeah, yeah. There may have been some of that. I mean, I remember hearing a lot of words like that thrown around town or in my family or in the 90s, like, oh, she's militant or she's hard or are you going to put it in our faces? She's kind of or like love the center hate the sin. We love you, but we don't accept your lifestyle, I think. And that unfortunately just had to be good enough for me back then. And I was absolutely fine with that. Yeah, you weren't sweating that too much. I mean, I wasn't. I know it was a countercultural thing. In your parents, they're cool, obviously. No. Okay. Really? Same situation. They weren't cool, but they weren't not cool. It was something everybody found kind of quite annoying about me if I'm right. But I have an inner world. And I also knew I can't explain why, but I knew I had this life ahead of me that I was about to be a part of and that I was going to be okay. But I get to this church for this baptism after spending this time with the pastor having this kind of position in my community that was complicated. I was loved, but not accepted and just everything was like, okay, but not great. So I get to this church and the pastor takes me aside with this other kid that was going to get like a much younger kid and asks us both as a formality. Do you practice witchcraft or homosexuality? And I just laughed. I just burst out laughing because I didn't understand why that question was pertinent. And I still don't. But that question seemed so ridiculous to me. And then it didn't take me long to realize that I had to answer yes to one of those things. Do you think you threw witchcraft in to make it seem less pointed? Or do you think that's standard? They think that's equal. Those are the same areas of these because he's been a week with you. He probably liked you. We liked me. Yeah. And he's about to put you in a situation where he's going to deny you a baptism. I mean, I imagine he's human. So did he just throw a crept in to try to make a day? I got to ask these standard questions. I think so. And I think I told this very moment. I just accepted it as such. I just think I'm the same. I would do you find yourself all the way to this point of believing in witchcraft. But I have a great idea. I'm going to ask her about witchcraft and then the homosexuality thing won't throw away. Yeah. Maybe the other kid was a war. Right? The boy was a war. He's getting you both. So he very well could have been. He's standing there with his staff. But I stopped laughing. I looked at him. I go, you know me. I go, you know, I'm gay. Everyone knows I'm gay. This I'm the gay person in town. And I'm like the town gay. That didn't seem like that was a disqualifying factor. And I'm in a swimsuit. And my parents are right there. What are you talking about? Yeah. And he was like, you can't be baptized today. And I had to leave the church in front of all those people sitting there, run back to my house. How did you take that? Were you heartbroken by that? Or were you angered by that? At that point, just humiliated. Yes. So embarrassed, which is my nightmare. I cannot be embarrassed. It was about the most embarrassed I've ever been in my life to this day. And my parents came home and a couple of their close friends like Ron and Diane, like they all came to the house. And it was suddenly I was loved and accepted. It was this weird thing that happened where then pastor dude was the problem. And the whole town got mad on my behalf. Oh, that's beautiful. That might be scarier for me though. I don't know if I want the whole town to hate me or love me. I'm afraid of both. I could see why because they might know what you're doing. I just be like, Oh, I can't live up to love. I can live up to disappointing you, but living up to love. That's the whole trajectory of this experience of even getting famous. That's still an issue. I'm afraid for you to love me because I'm going to disappoint you. I think more than ever, that is a valid stressor. I can see why you feel that way even without the issues. Yeah, I already had those. And then there's some proof now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That turned that around for me in a really interesting way. So did they can the pastor? They said, like, you got to go to the program and baptize. No, that pastor called me every day for a long time trying to apologize. I just, I think it was just upsetting for everyone. You know, religion and dogma, it's so oppressive. So did you just lose your desire to even get baptized at that point? Like, fuck that. I have my relationship with Jesus and I'm good. Yeah. And tell much, much later in life. It set me free in a way, I think. Made a lot of people that thought that gay people were militant and insisting on these rights that they're going to take from them, realize we really are kind of in trouble out here. We really are vulnerable in a lot of different ways. I don't think they're realized. Yeah. You were just like excommunicated from your church in front of them all. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a lovely end though to that terrible story. Something about it is the best part of us as humans, which is like, we don't enjoy seeing someone get shit on or excluded. Almost no matter what. Yeah. It can change us on a dime in a profound way. More than had you bitched out the guy in front of everyone and one thing. Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. Did I read correctly that you wouldn't get married until LGBTQ? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've had a lot of gay friends and my analogy was, and this is a crazy analogy, but it feels very appropriate. If half my friends were black and I lived in the 30s, I wouldn't host a party in the front of the bus. Yeah. Yeah. It would feel insane. And I was like, well, we're going to invite like eight of our gay friends to watch us have this right. They don't have and celebrate us. It feels bonkers. Wow. Just on that alone, not like a big global, just like this is wrong for me to do this and invite friends that can't do it to enjoy it for me. It feels crazy. It's pretty good. It's pretty great. But then we were stuck in engagement. I want to say three years to the point where people would be like, you're still engaged, like they're getting nervous for us, right? Like you can only be engaged for so long. Yeah. This is a bad sign. Nervous. And it's like, well, this is convenient. You have a cause now. What's the guy's idea? You should go to the festival. You definitely, you should go to the festival. I really do think it's right for you. But also, that's actually amazing. That's going to always be a part of your legacy and being able to get married changed my life. And when I couldn't get married, it was a major drain on my life. Yeah. Can we talk about that a little bit? Because I do think we have a friend group and there's something adjacent happening where there's some religious people who are like, well, no, you can be together. But like marriage is a different thing. What can you share about why that's not okay about why it's not okay to deny that basic? Yes. Civil right. Well, I just don't think that anyone religion has them and optically on two people choosing to spend the rest of their lives together under equal protection of the law. And guess what? Some of us are quite religious. It was kind of wild, actually, because my weddings, we had a lot of weddings. My wife is from London. So we got married in a little church. Go the church of the good shepherd and wear a message. And the last name is shepherd, yeah. Shepherd. Yeah. In that one. Yeah. That's great. And then we had a civil partnership in England because they didn't have marriage there yet. It was just a civil partnership. So it was kind of weird because we never had a civil partnership here. We had marriage first. And then England for years had civil partnerships and then marriage quite a lot later. So we had a civil partnership there. And the deal was you couldn't have any mention of faith, religious music. I don't even think you could wear like a cross like you had to have a totally secular interest in which was an interesting thing because it gave me this perspective of understanding how it can really be viewed through a religious lens. But really that's all in the eye of the beholder. That's all in how you feel about it. Also, it just really speaks to like little groups of humans do little weird things and they have little weird rules so that they're separate from this year. So it's like this one has to be secular. Doesn't make much sense. This one can't have that. Doesn't make sense. Yeah. They overlap in these little segments of life and you're going to deal with a civil union and that thing at the same time. I think just normal people out like living their lives as if just didn't realize how many things it excluded us from. We had all kinds of issues. You couldn't visit her in the hospital, right? Like that would be one in a lot of cases. That was a really heartbreaking one and happened to a lot of older couples or just home ownership, like going back to somebody's family instead of their long term spouse. Yeah. Things like that. But then immigration as well, we couldn't get a green card or vouch for cat citizenship or anything like that because there was no spousal allocation for me to be able to do that. So we had to renew our visa a couple of years in panic every time we traveled internationally, get detained at the airport, we're always detained at the airport. And when that changed, it was just immediate. I was like, oh my gosh, this is what everybody else used to get to walk up to the counter and say, we're married everywhere. You don't even think about it. I don't think I've gotten some right, which I have. That's a problem when people are against it. They don't recognize the benefits of it that they're just inherently getting. That's a good point. Do you like Cedarus? David Cedarus, the writer? I don't know him. He's so proud. Well, your congratulations. You've just got introduced to the greatest living writer. Okay. That's incredible. He's hysterical. But anyways, I was just reading a short story two nights ago. was about when it got past. He has a very interest. He's older. He's 60 probably four now. And he has opinions that are of his era in a fun way. And he's very open about them. He was in England and he collects trash in the morning at their house in England. That's like his routine. And he brought with him his eye pegs. He knew that the Supreme Court announcement was going to happen. And then he lost signal for three hours. And then he got to a cafe and he opened it up. And he saw it. And he said, I don't think any gay human being in America could have not read that and just felt emotion. Yeah. But then his whole process is like him going home to his partner of 20 years and telling Hugh that they got to get married because there's a great tax benefit. And he was like, I'm not getting married. That's for fucking straight people. I don't give a fuck about the tax benefit. And he answered him for like a month to finally get him to continue. And he said the actual proposal was like him rolling out the tax benefits, bludgeoning him. And then he was saying, fine, if it'll make you shut up, I'll do it. That's married. That's what I'm going like, well, that's not the way the proposal I imagine. But here we are. And like, does it want to be called husband? You know, like just I was a whole rejection. That's a whole thing. How old are they? Like 64 or five. Yeah. I get it. I respect that. I really respect that. He hates the word queer. You know, like he's got a lot of things. Yeah. And he's fun to talk to. And he's earned every single opinion he has. But yeah. Oh, I love those folks. Yeah. Well, ancestors in a way, like those are my elders, man. I've got so much respect for the older days. Yeah. Yeah. He grew up in a time where he had to leave North Carolina and move New York City. This is only shot. Had to. And he's almost unsympathetic. We asked people ask him questions like, what should I do? I'm in this town. He's like, fucking move. They're gritty. They're gritty. They're so gritty. It's brutal. You guys don't even know what AIDS is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. They're pissed. And yeah. In some ways, like they have a right. Yeah. Exactly. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare, we are supported by all state. Checking all state first could save you hundreds on car insurance, not checking your gas gauge before hitting the road. You genuinely thought you could make it. You were wrong. That's a very long stretch of highway where you learned exactly how far fumes can take you. And it's not far enough. Yeah. Checking first is an excellent plan. So check all state first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. And for fast, reliable help when you need it, add an all state roadside plan today. You're in good hands with all state potential savings. Very insurance and roadside assistance plans are subject to terms, conditions and availability insurance provided by all state North American insurance company Northbrook, Illinois roadside assistance plans provided by all state motor club incorporated in all state affiliate. Okay. So mom was she the breadwinner. I'm imagining you guys were probably scraping by if they were super young dad had his problem and mom. What did she do? Mom was to stay at home mom. How did this work? There wasn't a lot of bread. Okay. My dad when he couldn't be a Boeing anymore. He learned how to do some construction and a guy helped out our family helped my dad get some tools. My dad's actually really good at construction. He still comes out and does stuff at my house all the time and stuff. And just with in that gig, you just you get jobs when you can get them and when you don't have them, you don't have money. And that's just how you roll. So we moved a lot. Yeah. I noticed maybe seven places I read or something in some period of time. Me and my brother's gotten an argument about this last night. He didn't believe me, but it's 14 places in 17 years. There we go. But it didn't seem that strange at all at the time. There were consistent things. You know, like the same cat that we took to every place that we moved to. I shared room with my little sister. I'm really tight with my brother and sister. And I'm really tight with my parents. We're just a chaotic unit of dysfunction that just deeply loves each other. We sometimes disagree about history and how it played out. And what we're allowed to talk about what we aren't. But I do believe that my life is my story. And we'll just talk it through. We'll continue to talk it through like we always have. Yeah. Did you covet money or was the town so small that even though you were broke, was everyone broke? Or did you covet money and think how the fuck am I going to get? I got to get money. Oh, yeah. I thought about money a lot. Yeah. I still do. I'm a coyote. Yeah, coyote people. What do you old coyote people is what we're called? Yeah. Tell me more like a coyote. It cannot help but exist for me. And like I'm a coyote for achievement. I'm a coyote for success. I'm a coyote for stability and money. And I do my best. I've got all kinds of philosophies around not hoarding money and things like that because I know where the addiction lies. But I used to lay in my bed and dream about all the things I could buy everybody if I got money. And they were dumb things like four wheelers. Sure, no. It was a great thing. Yeah. Like downriggers and crap like that. Once I very first started making money, I did crazy stuff with it. I took out loans like I would finance four wheelers and get like my dad and brother four wheelers. Just new money stuff. Yeah. I wish I were one of your family members. I have four wheelers. I have a largely free one. I'm a four wheeler problem. But you started singing with mom at eight years old. Yeah. So mom was a singer I'd presume. Yeah, my mom's a really good country singer. To this day, she can still sing really good like Tamiwainat. Her dad died of ALS really young. He died at like 50. And that was tough for my mom because she was really young. Needed to death. Yeah. And he was special. So he was going to be a pretty important patriarchal figure in our family that we could all could have really used. And so he left us and one thing he did was sing country music and play the spoons and sing in a country band with his family. Was he from Washington? He was from Minnesota. Doesn't make much more sense. I was hoping from the south. Yeah, but you can't count out the north. Yeah. Yeah. Or the west. That's what we call it country in western where I come from. Here he is. We just not belong to the south. That's true. And so she in a way was able to continue that legacy pass that on to me and my brother and my sister. We all do music now. And who was she singing with that she got to get you up on stage to sing with her? There was like a little community theater in town called the Northwest Randall Opera that I dream about all the time actually. We were acting out the Randall Opera. Yeah. Like an announcer. There was like a little Jimmy Dickens. Many Pearl thing happening. Oh, that's great. Yeah. And so she would mostly sing with us. But even though she's a good singer, I always got the idea that it was really more about us than her at a certain point. And she thought it was really cool that her kids could sing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course you have kids. Yeah. I got kids. Yeah. They do shit. You're like, oh my god. They do shit. And you're like, oh my god. I've picked a song to play for you later. Oh, I can't wait. Based on this because of the ages. Tell me now, how old? 11 and 13. And you're eight and 12? 8 and 11 almost 12. Okay. So similar. Both girls. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yours are both girls also minor both girls. Wow. Yeah. Into they write four wheelers. They do. They both have polarises. Yeah. Okay. Good. Putting them on four wheelers is something I'm really happy I did and an arranger because when they get to drive in. Yeah. Yeah. Right. She's that coordination and under space. You really be hanging out. I know. My girls write dirt bikes and they drive razors and golf carts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You start singing now without mom by what age? 15ish. Yeah. Me and my best friend Amber, we started singing background vocals for her dad, who was an Elvis impersonator. And then we would do a song or two and the set by ourselves. And then we learned a couple of indigo girls songs and sort of trying to teach her harmony, which my brother had taught me. And I was singing in another band with my brother. And things just kind of turned into me being in multiple bands and having a lot going on. You got obsessed with Open John, tell yourself, you know, tell yourself guitar guitar when I was around 17, 16, 17. Okay. And when do you move into Seattle and meet Tim and Phil? I never moved to Seattle. You did. Back to this day. I live where I grew up, but I did meet them in a studio when I was about 18, 19. I got some money together from neighbors, Coyote. Out there doing the Coyote things. I got some money together to go make a CD and ended up in a there's a recording studio there called London Bridge and a guy called Rick Prasher. And this recording studio is very special. This is where Pearl Jam 10 was done. Oh wow. Temple of the dog. All the Alice in Chain stuff with Kelly Gray and Rick Prasher was involved in all that. He was the producer of those things. So this felt to me like the center of Seattle Grunge. But I couldn't afford like the big studio or the big producers. So like an assistant engineer, let me record with him upstairs and like a little kind of satellite room. And it wasn't even really. It was just a room. But Pro Tools was just coming out so you could do that without a big console. And Tim and Phil were in a downstairs working with the big producer in the big room in their own band called the fighting machinist. They were like legends in Seattle. They had just gotten the biggest record deal. Anybody in Seattle had ever gotten. And they were going to be huge. And I just waltz down there. And again, totally oblivious to what I looked like and where I came from and just was like. You guys like cow pants? Yeah. What do you think? Enjoy. Leave this all behind. Put on your bib and pull up the plate. Go. I get the beauty of moving a lot. You just have to like put yourself out there. You have to talk to people. You can't really be shy. You don't have time. Yeah. If you're sitting at home, no one's ever going to knock at your door and go, hey, do you want this spectacular life? No one ever is. And you realize you've got to make opportunities every chance you get. And I was working as a barista at a coffee stand. So I got a lot of social skills that way. I was working at a grocery store as a sample lady. Oh, sample lady. What was your sample. Oh, every day it was different. It was awesome job, actually. And then I was working part time as a roofing laborer. Oh, I also was a rougher. Really? Yeah. It's quite a job. Yeah. Yeah. I think my back is to let him tear off or tear off and clean up. And sometimes I would throw down the tarp paper if it was not a slanted roof. Never got to throw any bundles on it. Give her money there. I will say, though, I was just talking about this with the neighbor in Nashville, because he's a builder. And we were kind of going through the strata of people and the trades. And I was like, look, you've been doing this for 35 years. Am I not crazy? We are the worst, right? Roofers are just like worst prison records. So at least likely to show up. And he goes, oh, I'm far rougher. The most fucked up in the trades. You think? Oh, you got a shit on a roof. And Detroit, we would do rubber roof. You'd be five, six stories up. There's no, even if you went down the ladder, there's nowhere in Detroit to go use the bathroom. Yeah. So yeah, guys are shitting in buckets on the roof. Everyone's hammered. People aren't showing up. I mean, I was a mess. Yeah. So imagine me like the lowest rung on that ladder, where you literally, you just cleaning up the mess. It was like that. And when you're on a roof and you're cleaning up roofing material, you're never lifting anything properly because you're always trying to keep from falling down. You're going to crazy angle. So I think my back is permanently. Probably. Yeah. Your whole day is spent figuring out how to do this ergonomically. So you don't get hurt because yeah, you're on an angle that's different from the angle you mastered yesterday and you're prying these nails out with this fucking weird shovel. This has gotten so neat. No, no, I can't we know six other rippers out there as our audience. The six rivers are sober enough to comprehend this right now. Yeah. They're like to our paper. How do you the woo Sim and feel like how do you go from there, the hot shit in town, your upstairs in the attic recording on Pro Tools, how do you convince them we should work together? Honestly, I don't know because every show they had was sold out. I saw them play like they were unbelievable. They were very nice. I almost couldn't believe how nice they were to me because they were so popular and they were so good looking. I had nothing to offer these two beautiful boys in their 20s and I was just like you want to play on my record, you know, and they just did it for no reason. The way I had things going was I would busk whenever I could in the daytime at Pike Place Market and I had these residencies at night in clubs and restaurants all over Seattle. I'm talking about Duke's clam chowder house, Bill Medine's, Ravi Oli station, his bowler, the Dubliner bar and the Ballard Firehouse. People are coming for the montray first and then there's music. They have no idea they're going to get music, right? But I did have this little PA system that I would go and I would go, hey, listen, I got two speakers. I know you don't have music here, but if you let me come in on Tuesday nights, give me like four Tuesday nights. If on the fifth Tuesday night, it's like twice as busy in here that you got to start paying me. And then I'll get my Tuesday night at Salty Sonal Kai. So I basically had all these residencies going and then I would get down on my breaks and sit with always people at their tables and have a beer and say, give me your phone number, give me your phone number. And then once a month, I'll call them and I go, hey, I got a big show at the tractor tavern. My decent record labels there, will you pack it out for me? And all these people would come and then I'd have packed shows. And so everybody was like, what's going on with this girl? Yeah. You really networked your way into that? Good. That's how we ended up getting a record deal and that's how I ended up getting the twins to join the band. Don't you marvel? I'll be just reflecting on the odds against everyone to make it in any of these chosen show business careers. And the thing I constantly come back to is like, yeah, it'd be great if talent got you there. The amount of hustle it takes. I think is a little misleading when you're on the outside. You think like, oh, if I'm Bieber and I'm a genius at 13, I'll become famous. And really, it's like, I mean, you got to fucking call random people you played in front of at a restaurant. Yeah. And it's really the stuff we've been talking about this whole time that gives you that acumen, like the skills to do that. You can't fake, being a coyote. You can't fake coming from nothing. You can't fake the charisma that it takes to rise like a phoenix out of really difficult situations. Yeah. So it does start happening pretty darn quick for you. I would say, right? Because you've dropped out of high school. That ship sailed. That was a bummer. I do want to pause there for tonight. I've got to pursue anything academically. I'm done. You know, it's like, I'm done. You had ADHD, right? You were diagnosed as ADHD. I don't think so. You know, something, my folks, the whole thing is a bit inaccurate in terms of like, we're an inaccurate historian. I mean, I'm sure there was a doctor or two that was like, you have ADHD. And now that everybody understands it so well, I'm sure there's some truth to that. But I just didn't do well in school. And I just couldn't keep myself there. You're restless there. And I felt too grown up to be there, I guess, because I had all these jobs and all these goals and these plans and I was working it. And I would be working and getting myself places. And then I would go to school and have to raise my hand to use the bathroom. Yeah. I was like, I don't belong here. I'm an adult. I just felt like I can't be here. I'm failing at everything. And I need to go somewhere. I'm not going to fail. That's what it was. Yeah. And your parents are like, all right, I guess that's what's going to happen. They didn't really have a choice. Yeah, me and my brother, we're just a year apart. We just stopped going and just started working. Wow. I just wonder, Dax, if the girls were like, we're not going to school anymore. Of all the people I know who are successful in working, I don't think any of them went to Harvard. None of them did the right thing. I barely graduated high school. I don't think it's that big of a deal. I think of you, if you want it, you're going to get it. And if you don't want it, you're not going to get it anyways. I can send you any school that I'll take you. It's not going to give you that. I hate to say that I feel that way, but I kind of do. I mean, I worked out. If my girls came to me and said, we don't want to go to a conventional high school, I have the time and the means to help them with an alternative path. My parents, they both wrote out of high school. No one in our family graduated. Not my brother, not my sister, not me, not my folks. Wow, your kids could be the first. So my kids could be the first. They will do it maybe a different way, though. I don't see my kids going to a conventional high school and doing that. I don't understand how to speak that language. So I think there will be alternative forms of their exit from their education. But suffice to say, by 2005, you record Brandy Carlisle. That's the first album. So you would have been 24 when it came out. Yeah. I recorded it in maybe 2002, 2003. So pretty young 24. And that works like Rolling Stone reviews it beautifully. They put you on the top 10 artists to watch in 2005. After all that grind, did you have a hard time trusting the positive things that were coming? No, I just loved it. I was so happy. Honestly, I was happy before I've always felt like a famous singer. Yeah. I always felt like that. So no. You're like, oh, the world caught up. Yeah. I'm more gun shy now than I was back then. Tell me, oh, what do you think has caused that? I don't know. Maybe just getting older, being middle age, wondering about relevance, the internet, the way people talk about each other, how easy it is to surmise that someone is something that they're not. And those kinds of things have made me question whether this is the gig for me. It's weird, though, isn't it? It's like counter to what you would think. If you would ask me at like 15, let's say you did all this stuff, what would you feel like at the end of it? I'd feel so confident. But yeah, I was in this movie that people give me a lot of compliments for idiocracy. And I played a role that I know I want to do today. It would be too big of a swing. I would be afraid to go try to do what I did in that movie. You're saying that you would do today? If you offered me that role today, I would be like, I can't do it. Yeah, I'd be scared. But isn't that what we're saying? That's what's so weird. Well, that's the thing about idiocracy, too. Yeah, I could see why. Yeah, just it was a huge swing. And I didn't mind it all. It was for a third of me. And I didn't give a fuck if anyone thought it was embarrassing or not. Right, right. And now I would. And it would be harder for me to do it now. And that's opposite of what I would have expected. Is it because we don't want to be embarrassed in front of our kids? Is it because we're like becoming legacy conscious as we get older? I mean, I think those are really good guesses. And for probably a lot of people, that stuff is going on. I don't think I'm concerned about legacy. I think what it is is in some weird way, I was inoculated by ignorance and naivete and didn't even consider what if I look ridiculous doing it? What if this is embarrassing? Those thoughts never crossed my mind. And now they would. Yeah, that sucks. We only get that I think for I'm not as good as I thought I was. That's part of it, right? Like I used to think I was so good. Now I think I'm fine in some weird ways. I'm more confident, but also it's like I tapped on the bottom and the top. What is change that you think you've let some of the outside in a little bit? Yeah, or I've seen stuff I did that I thought was one thing. And then upon reflection or years away, I'm like, Oh, it wasn't as good as I thought it was. So I wasn't as good in it. I've more come to the feeling like, Yeah, I'm fine. I can do this job. Not I'm going to be Will Ferrell. At that point, I was like, I'm going to be Will Ferrell. No, you have stuff to lose now. That's really what it is. You get to an age where you have stuff to lose when you're starting out. There's nothing to lose. You're able to put yourself out there because it's like, well, what's the worst thing? I can have a mortgage when I did that. Exactly. And you have a reputation. You have children. There's a ton to lose, actually. Exactly. You're a little bit dumb. The beauty of not having a fully developed frontal lobe. Yeah. It helps you. I put out album after album after album without ever even knowing when the Grammys were. And now I'm thinking about the Grammys before I write the song. I don't want it to be that way. And I push it out. I do it. I get rid of it. And I do the thing and I go in. But to not know the things I know, I'm an album with Elton John. Elton's incredibly encyclopedic about numbers and the charts and how things do. And he knows everything. And I knew nothing. He would call me and say, hey, the record is coming out at this or it got this or this thing is going to happen. And I'd be like, oh my God, tell me about that. Like, what is that? Yeah. Once you learn too much about how you're being received, it can definitely go in. But I think there's ways we can erase it. I don't know how but I think there are ways we can get rid of the knowledge. Well, because we have examples of people who have avoided that. So minimally, there are mentors that exist that seem to have never succumbed to that pressure. But yes, if you've never been nominated for a Grammy, who cares? Once you get nominated for one, now we know you can do it. It's yours to not do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what fucks you up, I think. In the climb, we talk about this all the time. It's counterintuitive, but it's so much scarier once you're at the top of the mountain. Climbing the mountain is hard. And when you're in it, you're like, I want to do is be up there. But then when you're up, there's one way to go. There's one way to get up there. Yeah. And you're more self-conscious because of it. You're right. Yeah. And they say with that Miley Reliric, there's always going to be another mountain. Yeah. I need another mountain. I need another mountain all the time. That's my addiction. They're there. Yeah. Okay. In '07, the story comes out. How did you end up working with T-bone Burnett? And is he as magical as I'm led to believe from film and television? He seems very special. Yeah, he is very special. When I started recording our songs, me and the twin songs, we had like 40 something songs, 42 songs maybe. Over the course of doing these residencies together and working together and practicing. And who we met first was Rick Rubin. Oh, wow. Okay. And Rick Rubin tried to sign us to American recordings. But there was a lot going on like the Johnny Cash stuff had just come out and he was moving in a bunch of record label stuff. Didn't work out. But what he told me was, these are your good songs. And these are your not so good songs. He divided them in half and he goes, this is a really great record. This is something you can record if you need to make money and find a way to get yourself through the next couple of years until I get settled in at my new record label. Did you agree with that assessment? Yeah. Then I was really open to suggestion at that point from him. So I divided those things in half and I went in and recorded what became Brandy Carlyle. As my own collection basically of demos for me to sell at my shows. And then later on, I got the record deal in 2005. And they said, well, okay, we know your good record is the story. This album, you have to come out. Let's put this other one out in the meantime while you kind of get your chops and get out on the road and get good. So we did. And that became Brandy Carlyle. That was my not good songs. That was my rejects. And you toured for two years on that, right? Toward for like several years on that. And then it never really worked out with Rick Rubin. And I met T-bone Burnett in a hotel bar in New York City. And we got to talking about country music. We hit it off. And we agreed that we were going to leave the country and make a record together in some other country. That record was the story. And the whole thing is recorded live in one room with one band to tape 11 days or something. Something really quick. Yeah, you can't get T-bone Burnett stay longer than that. Yeah, he moves quick. He moves quick. What was going on with T-bone? The live was a departure from what was being done normally, right? It was, but it was a recent departure because like I was saying, Pro Tools was only kind of new. And there were certain editing techniques that are second nature today that you hear all the time without realizing you're hearing them that we didn't really have refined or have a lot of access to back in that exact moment. You couldn't have used auto tune or melodyne and not heard it. You'd hear it. It wasn't as finessed as it is now. Compression to everything was in a time when you're hearing like really unaltered human voice and not a lot of. Your voice cracks on one of the tracks, right? Yeah, on the story in a significant way. And a lot of times I'm playing guitar and singing at the same time and those things can't be separated in those recordings. And so we recorded to tape, which is another whole other cumbersome but beautiful sounding way to record. And to add it on it is so much more time consuming. Yeah, they actually splice it and cut it. So you have to make big decisions about accepting imperfection. Yeah, so how about that moment with the voice when you first heard we were like, we can't have that or were you like, oh fuck this somehow has a magic to it? It felt and sounded so wild to me when I made that sound that I almost laughed and just ended the tape for everyone. But I knew that everybody was playing so good and I didn't want to throw it for the drummer. And so I just sang through it, thinking, well, if they love the first half, they can splice a second half on from another one. When I ended the song, Tee Momernet comes running through and you know, you don't run. But he comes up and he throws the door open on my ISO pod and he goes, that was the moment of the record. That was the moment of the record. And I go, what are you talking about? He goes, wait till you hear it. Wow. Powerful. Yeah. That's cool. So that album, the story really changes kind of everything. Yeah. No, at the time it really didn't. I think it didn't break the top anything. Well, you get songs on Grey's Anatomy. They started happening. Yeah. Grey's Anatomy started showing up really early, like during the Brandy Carlisle thing. And this sort of relationship happened with them where they found that my music was going well with their programming. So I even recorded a couple of songs just for them. Wow. Yeah. And one season they had three years songs and then their musical episode, they sang one of your songs. Yeah. The story. It helped everything. It helped pay the bills. It helped our band and what an iconic show. Oh my god. I was obsessed with it and specifically the music just picking out every song. They were like Maureen becomes a clock tick. They were like a gateway to great music. Exactly like Maureen becomes a club. Exactly like Garden State. Yeah. There was this kind of really cool thing that happened around synch licensing at that time. And I just happened to be a part of it. I still feel the ripple effect of that. And I love that show. It's a great show. What's the latest venues were you playing on that two years of touring with Brandy Carlisle? Theators or bars. Well, if I got to open for somebody theaters, but a lot of bars and clubs and just kind of standing rooms and stuff like that, loved it. So all kinds of fun stuff, I bet. So all kinds of fun stuff. I never got on a plane until I was 17 years old. So I saw the whole country with these two twins in my own van. We should take our kids to more bars. That actually teaches how to get by in a bar. Yeah. If you can survive there. Lit Miss test for the whole world. Yeah. Every weekend with my father has been the entire day at the dirty duck saloon for like 8 am till two in the morning. That was his spot. Tell me you met Doug. Okay. So when you finally got to work with Rick Rubin, how was that? That could go either way. If you met you years before and saved this and these are great, this could go either way. I found it tense. I'm intimidated by him a bit. We interviewed him and I was like, he's got some mojo, but the mojo for me is intimidating. I think I found it like that. If I had to really unpack it on the spot, I would say that him being the deciding force between whether something was great or not great really rubbed me the wrong way. Yeah. He actually used the word great all the time. And I felt that that word was subjective. I was young enough to wear the punk rock artist in me needed that word to be subjective. And I needed to be the determining factor between what I was making and whether it was great or not great. Yeah. And I think if he were sitting here today, you would probably giggle and tell you that that's probably what he doesn't like about working with young artists is that they have to be the determining factor of great or not great. At the same time, I wouldn't take that from myself for anything. So we butted heads really bad. And then later on in life came back together and now are very good friends. But I still think he's complicated man and tough to work with on that level. Yeah. I only hung around there for a minute when the avids were recording there because I'm friends with Seth. Oh cool. I'm really good friends with those guys too. Yeah. I noticed you guys have played together. But if I had to really isolate like what insecurity in me is triggered by him. Yeah. Tell me. There's something almost religious about him. And I'm like, Oh, I'll never grasp his thing that he's got. And therefore he doesn't value me, you know, whatever. He's got some toehold on something I don't even believe in. And so there's a chasm between us. And he'll never think I'm special. And I'll never think he understands me. I don't know. Well, that's the same thing. His like serenity and his knowledge of what's great and not great is almost religious. It's like an aggressive serenity. Dude, dude, that's it. Yeah. It's an aggressive serenity. Yeah. Yeah. He just knows himself. And I think the dude's a genius. Let me be clear as day. I think the dude's a genius. Yeah. He knows himself very well in the middle of our interview. He was like, it's cold in here. We need to turn down the he didn't say can we. It was like very split. We were like, oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And then it like really rattled us for the next site. However many minutes. It never happened. It never happened. He like really just knows what he wants. He says it. He's not scared of you. Not a people pleaser. No, like what we would say is, hey, are you guys cold? Exactly. You know what I mean? We would like we would ask for the peanut gallery to like chime in and make a group decision. But there's merits both. I have to admit that the first thing I said when I walked in here today was can we turn the air into? Okay. Yeah. Totally a bare thing. It's totally past some of it on the me. You know, it's a legit thing to say. It's just the manner in which he was. rolled it out was unlike any version I had ever heard someone advocate for themselves. One time I went up to again this is the other thing is when we were making that second record he didn't come to the studio not one time and I live in Seattle and I had to live in LA to make this record so I could be near him but then I would have to take the record which we recorded on to take up to his house once a week sit there and play for him all the work I would done and then he would make suggestions and so at one point he asked for me to double a guitar solo in length that sounds challenging in this song impossible so I said oh we were cutting tape we can't do that and he goes I'm sure you'll find a way to make it happen yeah did you but it was like that aggressive serenity was such a descriptive factor anyway I don't think it's that way anymore in fact I worked with him recently on something and yeah he was very direct but I enjoyed it yeah it's cool something about him trigger some insecurity in me the dude's fine and he's a genius and he knows it yeah yeah maybe jealous of that yeah maybe if you ask him because he doesn't play an instrument or know how to run any of the equipment what if right qualifies him as being the guru there he is and he just says very confidently my taste I got irrespective yeah I do and the result yeah he hasn't can't deny that yeah stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare 2014 you sing the national anthem at a Seahawks game you've performed at this point a thousand times in front of people oh yeah in my mind I'm like already Celine Dion right right do you get nervous when you go performed there for some reason though good I like that yeah and I actually sang the national anthem a lot in the early part of my career for different sporting things in Seattle I sort of had like a program I knew a key like I had a key that I do it in and I knew a way to keep the key in my head so I didn't lose it when I got out there I knew how to manage delay in the stadium I knew how to use that song as like a wrestling move it's a complicated song no like there's something about it and get away from you that song really easy right people start too high and they got nowhere to go is that what it is fear in their eyes just like they're out of octaves don't even listen to where they started just look at their eyes okay so let's go to the fire watchers daughter 2015 this is the first Grammy nomination you get yeah so you've been at it now for 10 years what do you think you picked up between Brandy Carlisle the first album and the fire watchers daughter do you think it's all the same they just slept on you before or do you think you learned something at some point that made that a logical conclusion lots and lots of live experience lots and lots of road time and people skills understanding how to interact with people but hold on to myself a lot of production know how because I have worked with T-bone Bernat and Rick Rubin on two separate things and then also all these ancillary producers like I had gone in with John Goodmanson and Tony Berg and I had done a lot of projects with other really big producers and me and twins we came from big producer Rick Prasher so I had like a lot of production ideas and a lot of beliefs about leadership and when we went in and made fire watchers daughter it was for better or self-produced with a really powerful and amazing engineering culture and a shoemaker who was really co-producing when I look back on it now and so I felt that we were like almost an indie band we were living like an indie band and operating like an indie band and just fine with it doing really really well and believing we were doing really well so when you got that nomination were you shocked or did you feel that coming a shocked nobody had ever even talked to you about the Grammys I thought it was like a TV show that my mom would let me stay up late for because Whitney is gonna hit that note line yeah and so basically I was on a airplane and I got a text message from ATO the like indie label we were on at the time of sky Johnny Texan meeting that congratulations on your Grammy nomination I was on the label with Brittany Howard and I knew she was always getting this stuff so I thought oh this is Brandy I said to him it's been a mix up I was speechless I had no idea even when they were when the nominations are coming up you cry no didn't mean to insinuate euro no little baby yeah yeah no I'm just thinking about it because the Grammys have made me cry a couple of times but at this point I didn't cry yet but I was just like oh that's a level of making it yeah I hadn't even considered yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so you know some are bigger than you dream yes or I went it was awesome well you've been back a bazillion times is wondering after you've already had them this is a reaction turned to more like relief I think it does it's not weird it does because the team works so hard for it you so want to be able to bring that home for everybody else and then there becomes an expectation and you know if you don't get it does that mean that something's over like when Elton was involved in this last one for Elton I've never wanted acknowledgement more in my life than I did for Elton like he hasn't had enough acknowledgement very right but on his behalf you very much want to back I couldn't sleep for like two days yeah yeah and then we woke up and we had it and it was like oh we didn't win any on how many of her Academy Award from that song too yeah yeah yeah and you want two Emmys yeah you're on a way to an E guy I see this coming do you figure out what's the other side involved with a Tony will you need to get figured out we can figure that out I have an idea right the other fun thing you've done other than create nine albums that are all great in one eleven Grammys and two Emmys and Academy Award nomination you've also got this side career as someone who has been obsessed with people and you get to work with these people I think this is the zone of your life I'd be most envies of more than the other stuff to have people you love for an eternity and then to get to enter their orbit and then even get to work together so is Tanya the first person or is Joni or is this start where you become this collaborator of people who have been humongous where did it start because you have Tanya Tucker you have Joni Mitchell and you have Elton John you've spent years with these people it started in some of the places that you don't read about and that you can't imagine because I am a fan like I am a way outside your tour bus for an autograph fan I'm that kind of girl and so a lot of these folks that I followed around when I was young and went to all of their shows and bought every single thing they did and worked to get closer to before I had this job I got to work with them early on like the indigo girls and listen to Williams and Marychapen Carpenter and Kim Ritchie and so am I like my favorite most iconic Bonnie Ray and then it starts to get bigger and the artists are like getting bigger and it's like I'm getting a call returned from Dolly and then we're singing together and then me and Elton we're going on vacation together and we're writing songs and then Johnny Mitchell that turned into a whole other world I mean I'm just guessing but I feel like of the other two I feel like Joni you needed to hold her into performing again yeah I may have thought of that at the time but I remember you know who Russ Kunkel is he's like this iconic drummer he played on blue and he played on all this James Taylor like all the early these even on tapestry he's the dude and he's still killer and doing it all the time but I did this concert where I covered blue and I wasn't even that close with Joni yet but she came and I had just had my first Joni jam with her at her house for anybody that doesn't know what the Joni jams are it's something that we started at Joni's behest six seven years ago she's recovering from an aneurysm doesn't play music anymore and we wound up in a situation where we had dinner and she was talking about her house and her instruments and her living room and saying I don't do music anymore I don't want to hear it it's not a problem I don't want you to think that that's sad I'm a painter I'm a this I'm of that but my house misses it and these instruments should be played wow what do you think about bringing a few people over every now and then and doing these nights so that I just have my first jam and at the very first jam I won't walk you through the whole process but Joni decided out of nowhere to open her mouth and sink there was nobody expecting it it was her be Hancock was sitting at the piano get out of here her be Hancock was tickling the ivory exactly that oh my god I was hovering over this diminished core that I didn't know what it was nobody knew what it was she did though and she just goes summertime and the living is easy and people burst in a tears her viewers in tears all the people in taking care of her and as she recovered from her aneurysm she wouldn't do music but then suddenly just decided to sing that line so I'm telling Russ uncle this and he goes she sang I go yeah she fully sang I go yeah maybe you know maybe it's this or maybe it was because of that or it was just this and he goes one thing I want you to remember if you ever think that you're spearheading this Joni Mitchell always has plan Joni's always got a plan yeah and so I am convinced that she actually was the architect of everything from that first line to the Hollywood Bowl she's kinds are so wow yeah she let you believe this was all your idea this is genius I mean you don't have to let me believe something's all my idea for me to just go ahead and believe it but she didn't say it wasn't but I do feel like she orchestrated an incredible recovery for herself I got to be the one in the passenger seat washing - That did escalate into you guys playing at the bowl, how many shows did you guys do? - We did two nights at the bowl. - Two nights at the bowl. Serial experience for you, are you able to in moments like that be super there in taking it all in? Or are you like, yeah? - I mean, you wanna talk about welling up. I let a few of the Joni things take me by surprise, but that one I was like ready for. And I remember just sitting next to her on the second night while she's saying both sides now, just openly weeping, kind of knowing it was the last time I was gonna get to do it, and also thinking these are the some of the most powerful moments in music history, listening to this woman sing this song, especially from a perspective of recovering from this aneurysm being 82 years old, and really having looked at life from both sides now. - Yeah. - It's like how did I get this seat? - Yeah, exactly. You must believe, oh, I guess you believe in God, but I was gonna see, you must believe in the simulation. - The simulation? - No. - We're in a computer model being run. - Oh, 'cause our lives are too good. - It's too good to be true. - It's suspicious. That night with you with Joni Mitchell's highly suspicious. - That's highly suspicious. - Right, yeah, yeah. - That doesn't happen for people. - No, it doesn't. - When it does, you gotta go like, wow, God's really smiling. I mean, or we're in a simulation. - Or what's gonna happen. - Exactly, exactly. Or what shoe's gonna drop in. - How long had it been since Tanya had recorded an album when you guys worked together? - I think a long time. Something like 17 years. - That album gets nominated for a Grammy. - One. - One, sorry. - Yeah. - One country album of the year and country song of the year. - Yeah. - Yes, after a 17 year. - And she'd never want to Grammy in her life. And she is a country, music, waypever, icon. - Yes, yes, yes. When you are imagining your own success and visualizing it, and you thought it was gonna feel like blank, I wanna know how much that delivered her dinner. And then I wanna know the difference between being a part of something, when you can help someone else do something, can trust those two experiences? - Well, it's over delivered, way beyond over delivered. There's just things like, you know, headlining Madison Square Garden, or winning a Grammy. Or anything that happened with Joni, your dolly or Elton or Tanya or Annie Lennox, it's unbelievable. And then if you take that part of my job, and you will actually backtrack it, it's why I'm married to my wife. It's why I have my daughters. It's why I have my brothers, the twins, and why we live together. It's why our family is okay. It's given me everything. And so to say it over delivered is such an understatement, 'cause it has woven the fabric of my life. Now in terms of when you get something from it, like success, or you learn how to do something, when you share that for me, it's always as soon as I figure out how to do it. So when I figure something out, whether it's how to throw a festival or run a successful tour, or maybe make an album that is good enough to where it garners the respect of winning a Grammy. I immediately want to do that for or with someone else. Immediately. I'm already bored with the me part of it. - Right. - And so when, by the way, I forgive you, did what it did, somebody mentioned Tanya Tucker and I was like, that's next. Let's get Tanya Tucker here now. And then we get Tanya Tucker here now, and then you hear about the next guy, and you're like, yeah, let's get the door open for them too. And that's just sort of how I've seen it. As soon as I figure out how to get in the door, I'm trying to find a way to prop it open. - Yeah. - It's really nice. - That's the next mountain we were talking about. - Exactly, that's right. - That's what it is. Yeah, once you do get what you want, before you sit there and marinate it and it long enough to let it change you, get right on to doing that for somebody else. - Yeah, 'cause that's where the elation, I mean, I think selfishly you can pursue that. It's so exciting. - It is so exciting, right? - It is, right? It's like the number one. Like I'll pull up to this house and I'm like, yeah, we're so lucky we have a great house. But I like a Monica's house and I'm like, oh yeah, look at Monica's house. That's what I can do. - Oh, that's so funny. I remember when me and the twins, even early on around maybe the story or give up the ghost, anytime they would like move into a nice house or get something like, I would go to their house and I'd be like, hell, yes. - Yeah. - Yeah. - That's 'cause of this job. That's 'cause of this music we're making. Like, we're winning. - Yeah. - Yeah, I don't know if I'm like superstitious and I'm afraid if I let myself experience it, I'll lose everything and then I can just enjoy it for them without any of those fears. I don't know what's going on, but something so much more joyous about that. - You can see it objectively when it's not yours. - Yeah. - True, yeah. It's quite stark. - Yeah. - It's not happening to you. So feel one of the twins, married her little sister. - That's fun. - Yeah, that's fun. - Isn't that fun? - It's really fun. - Okay, I was gonna say, I could also get complicated making family. - Were they trying to hide it from you at first? - Maybe a little bit. - Okay. - It was really awkward at first, actually. - Yeah, I can imagine that. - Because she was so young. And he was like not young. - He was already older than you as you are. - He was already older than you. - She's my baby sister. - Yeah, you don't protect him. - I wanna say she was like 18. Oh shit. And he was 28.29. And we were already in a band. We'd been on the road together. We were kind of bros in a way. - Yeah. - And I was like, are you serious right now? And I mean, I thought to myself, it could definitely be the end of anything with me and the twins because you'd not cross my brothers and sisters on my watch. - He has that too. - Yeah. - I mean, everyone has it but some of you guys haven't more than others. - I'll kill you if you hurt my sisters feelings. - Oh my God, my brother and sister are like, no. - Yeah, but if they're in a relationship, they're gonna be some stuff. - But he's been quite gallant. And honestly, she has really, I don't wanna say something demeaning like, well, she's really grown up because she's like 40. But like, she has grown up married to that man. - And in this band, that is how she has lived this second half of her life. - Yeah, yeah. - And it's been incredible. - Yeah, I'm so delighted it worked out. - Yeah, that's awesome. - 'Cause they've been together for a long time now. 22 years of long time. - Wow, long time. - You've been with your wife for 13 years? - We've been married for 15, why? - Oh, okay. - And we've been together for like 16, 17. - And so how'd you meet her if she's from England? - We met, actually, she was working for Paul McCartney. Oh, right, she was doing his philanthropic work. - Yeah, and I had like a campaign running in Seattle called the Fight the Fear campaign. We were teaching the self-defense courses to women and people in at-risk communities for free because there was like a terrible string of violent crime that had happened in the city that year. And when it kind of culminated in this really awful thing. And so it traveled across to England. And she was reading about this in the newspaper and basically called up and was like, okay, what can Paul do? What can I do? - Oh, wow. - The whole thing. And I thought to myself, well, I just started this foundation. I need some mentorship. - Looking out foundation? - Yeah, I had a lot of principles that maybe I was getting in my own way a little bit. So I wanted to have this mentorship thing with her and we got to talk it. And so for like a while, I thought I was talking to somebody Paul McCartney's age. - Oh, wow. - I thought I was talking to a 70 year old woman. - Okay, wow, that's an interesting, that's almost like a reality show. Like you can't see the person. - Oh, there isn't. - It didn't occur to me that she wasn't 70. It did not occur. - Yeah. - And she was saying 70 year old shit too. - Okay. - Because she's English, it sounded like stuff. - Yeah. - At least she took the lift or something. - I don't know. She was doing 70 year old stuff. She was listening to 70 year old music. Her and her girlfriend were traveling like 70 year old people and just had this vibe. - Did you have any moment where you're like, I feel like I'm becoming attracted to a 70 year old woman. - No, I just called her the charity lady. I'm like a charity lady. And then one time I was playing in New York City and I was like getting ready to go out with all the baby yikes, we were all gonna get on our vespas and drive to the gay bar and drink tequila. And I couldn't wait. And she came to the show. And I remember the tour manager being like, oh, you gotta have to stay out of the charity lady. But I was like, oh, I'm really grateful to her. - She's a little scared. - Yeah. - She got a walker. How'd you get her backstage? - And now 70 is like, that's my age. I'm like, that would be barely old enough for me to date. But I walk backstage. It's 27 year old, 28 year old. - She's hot, I imagine. - Absolute. - No. - Okay. - Yeah. - No, granny. - I mean, and oh my God, she was so charming and I loved her accent. She had black hair and bright blue eyes. And she was wearing this blazer. And she just was like hip. And I was like, cancel my plans. Order me in pizza. I've got to stay with this woman. - Yeah. - Forever. - Forever. - Yeah. - Did she already have a crush on you? She came to the show. She knew you weren't 70. She had that advantage over you. - I don't know if she had a crush on me. She will say no. - Oh. - She will say no. - With her. - But I think, yeah, she probably thought I was pretty cute. - Yeah, you come to the show. - You were the show. - Okay, now here's another little bit of overlap. What are you smiling at? - Well, she's there. - Oh, yes, my God, I did not put that together. - I was like, should we ask her? - I thought you were like the publicist for something. Let me look at these blue eyes. - Yeah, beautiful, she is. - And now I can say, it was theoretical. You are a fucking smoke show, yeah. - She is a smoke show. - Yeah. - She's absolutely what you're doing. - I was like, you knew. - Yeah. - I know, we were 10 minutes. - No, that's my wife. She manages to me now. - Okay, so I wasn't terribly all-face. - You were. - She's got an official capacity. - Yeah, we can ask then, did you have a crush? - She's gonna say no. - Yeah, when you came to that show, did you have plans? - Well, I had my girlfriend with me, so. - Oh. - I understand. - Listen to her talk. - But I have to say that. - I think we're all intrigued by your voice. - Listen to that voice. - I don't know. - Do you say what I was going to do? - Yeah, that's the order piece of time. - Let's get this girlfriend out of here. What is this? She has some errands here, huh? We ordered pizza. You can't eat pizza, right? I heard your gluten in dollar. You know any cheese. - Yeah, the call of the flower crust is in the twin-stressing room. - Down the block. (laughing) Okay, our other overlap is we're both boat owners. - Yes. - You had the captain fantastic. - Gorgeous vessel. I saw some video of you out there. Piloting it and you have a pontoon. I have a tritune. Yeah, yeah. So is it tritune less redneck than a pontoon? It is. It's the newest iteration. They're more stable. Okay. I have a 400 horsepower V10 on a pontoon. So it moves. Oh wow that really moves. It really moves. I've just sounded this weekend. Mercury or Yamaha? A mercury. Wow, you got dual 350s outback. Dual 400. Dual 400s girl. Okay. I need a second engine. Yeah, you've got me doubled in horsepower. You just check out. Yeah, me too. Yeah, we can get into it. She really checks out. Captain Fantastic, named the boat after Elton John. Yeah. And just congratulations. Looking out foundations, given away nine million bucks, I think that's incredible that you've raised that amount of money. Do a lot of different things too. Yeah, what's the thing about the foundation is I started the foundation in 2007 when GM wanted to use the story in a television commercial. Right. And I was really young and idealistic. They offered me like a hundred thousand dollars. You know, and you know, I old I was. That's a very big deal. Oh. And I made all these calls to all my friends and I called the Indigo girls, which if you want to do a television commercial, never calling them over. Yeah. And all my friends were like, you can't do that. GM is one of the biggest contributors to pollution and they've caused all these problems. It is rumored that they've squashed patents and that they're really restricting the progression of the electric car and the hydrogen engine and the things that could help the environment. You can't work with GM. So who knows how much of that was true, but I said no. And so like the VP of advertising in GM was like a 20 something year old kid can't say no to a hundred thousand dollars unless we're getting a really bad reputation. And they called me and they said, what can we do to convince you to let us put your song in the Olympics and give you a hundred thousand dollars. Yeah. I go and make this even better for you. Yeah. And so I thought about it and I made some demands and they acquiesced to all of them. And it was really cool and powering moment for me as a young girl. Yeah. And then I took that money and started the foundation. And that's what we used it for. But since then the foundation has done the things like fight the fear campaign that I was telling you about. We've done a lot and hunger. We've done a lot of LGBTQ focused stuff. And in recent years, the plight of displaced people and outreach to refugees and asylum seekers, you know, children whose lives have been torn apart by war, immigrants, economic migrants and the way that we navigate the southern border have become focuses of the looking out foundation. And you did a cold good relief stuff. We are really campaign-based, you know, maybe it's ADHD part of me. If that's a real thing for me. I like your only person that's actually been diagnosed and you don't want it. I know. Everyone else has them and I know they want it. You're like flipping the script on terminal unique. So that's the foundation. That's awesome. Okay, so returning to myself is currently out. And you are on tour. You have two or dates that people could go look at at brandycarlyle.com. And one of the other things I want to say before I get to be serenaded. I'm so excited about. I think that's it. Everyone listen immediately to returning to myself if you're not already obsessed with it. And go see brandy live. This woman is like the Beatles. She's played as many live shows. You're guaranteed for a good show. I mean, you've been playing. It's kind of crazy right at 44. You've been playing for 30 plus years. Yeah, it's probably like the second nature to me by now, but it never gets old. Just like your sons, the best job in the world. Yeah, all right. I would love to hear this song that's going to make me think of my children. Yeah, my buddy Marcus on and he did this, right? Yes, he did. If you don't even eat the bottle, oh my god, this is post-bottle. This is why I have to mark us to this. I think he said that. By the way, you loved him. I know. You must love him, right? Oh my god. We are like sips, right? Yeah, he brought you up a lot. He's like loves you. Yeah, special dude. I love his solo album. Oh my god. Oh, yeah. It's such a good, such a good piece of music and really important. I love my word and sons too. Oh my god. Always have. And keep on with the levels. Do you want me to sing? Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. You know, it's great. We're sitting here talking. You're just so charismatic and special before you do this. And then you do this and I'm like, well, hold on a sec. You can't have all that. Yeah, no, well, I'm sad. You know, the super power on top of having a great personality. You get what kind of one or the other. I don't want that one now. That's a hard one. And you haven't even seen me drive that pond down. It's gotta be what you're referencing. I can just see the wake. So this song, it's about kids that are our kids age. And it's about these little moments, these are like micro separations where you see them do something that you didn't expect. They're trying something out that they're going to need later on in life like when they're not with you. It's called like a you without me moment. And I'm wondering what yours was because my friend Ben when he first heard this song. He had this moment where it was like they were at this big party weekend thing. And Mark Ronson was DJing and he was going to let his oldest daughter stay up late and like dance with him on the dance floor. And they're out on the dance floor and they're silly dancing and they're being goofy and they're doing the thing. But she started to like her own music. So she sees a group of older girls, you know, she's maybe 10 and they're like 14 or 15. And he gets distracted and she leaves him and she goes over to them and she starts trying to dance with them like the way they're dancing and like relate to them. And he said that he looked over there and he saw her and he didn't recognize her that she was an independent autonomous. And she was taking a risk and she was using her body and voice in a way that he had never seen. And these are the little like moments where it occurs to you that they're going to leave. They're their own people. Yeah and they're tiny things at first and that's what I wrote this song about. It's called You Without Me. Was your smile always crooked? Was the freedom ever free? Did you kick the rocks between your feet after all this time with me? You can listen to your own records now. The sad would you believe can pray on stars and skip the gods and like stones across the sea? But I wouldn't know you anywhere I lost myself in you and heavier this than you are free to slip right through do what you have to do. And there you are, my morning star, I wonder when you'd show. Give me a chance to quick thumbs up, a wink before you go. I never heard their voice before today. I remind myself to breathe and there you are. It's just you without me. I'm late to another game I guess I never learned the rules. I showed up with a broken name and handed it to you. I'm not sure if you can fix it now. But if you wanted to I'll follow you around and carry all your tools. Because I wouldn't know you anywhere I found myself in you. And heavy are the hands that hold the changes you go through do what you have to do. Without me. It's as predictable as time and age that comforting in some strange way. The time makes every one of us an absolutely shame. And when I met you face to face none of it was true. ♪ And my fine not you ♪ ♪ There you are my morning star ♪ ♪ I wondered when you'd show ♪ ♪ Give me a chance to quick thumbs up ♪ ♪ A wink before you go ♪ ♪ I've never heard that voice before today ♪ ♪ I remind myself to breathe ♪ ♪ I'm ever just a thought away ♪ ♪ If ever you need me ♪ ♪ You're gonna live a lot of life ♪ ♪ You're gonna see a lot of years ♪ ♪ God willing ♪ ♪ Just you ♪ ♪ Without me ♪ ♪ There you are ♪ ♪ It's just you ♪ ♪ Without me ♪ - Oh, it's so sad. - You're not in here. - It's so beautiful. - It's the without me part that's so sad. Every time you say without me, the thing, oh no, yeah, you're gonna have a whole life without me. - Yeah. - Orges, orges, orges. Thank you so much. - It's been a sweet, isn't it? - Yeah, it is. - You gotta go like, oh yeah, and that's the sign I did a good job. That's all you get. (laughing) They're just like, see ya. - I know, they're not. Think about how you think about your parents. - Well, I know, but there's a moment. I know there is. - Yeah, I got my 20s to do, girl. I'll talk to you later. - Yeah. - My 20s is coming, you know. You gotta do your 20s. - Yeah, that's a whole thing. - That's a whole thing. - No. - Yeah. back around. Yeah. They do. They go and they just do like one little thing. It's one little interaction. You see them do point they make. One thing they disagree about where they win the argument. There you are. Yeah. That's what you're going to be for the rest of your life. Without me. No, take me. I'll carry your tools. I'll run and get coffee. Well, that was beautiful. Thank you so much. You're tiny dust by the way. It's so good. Thank you. Yeah. I fucking love tiny dust. You nailed yours. I like tiny dust too. Yeah. It'll show you who's what separates the wheat from the Jeff's right. Doachie's tiny dust. No, it's incredible. Yeah. Or that psiloxonic. John Anderson pack. Oh my god. We had him on and we were just insane. What a dude. What a vibe too. Did you watch that? I could talk to you for seven hours. Just sidenote. I'm going to wrap this up. But did you watch this Super Bowl halftime show with Dr. Dre? Obviously he's the most memorable one ever. Yeah. They were all wearing rich fresh tracksuits. Baby blue pottery. It's so cool. But when they pan over and I'm like Anderson pack playing the drums this whole time. We didn't see it. Yeah, I know. Incredible. That is how stacked that was. I even see Anderson pack playing the drums. It's like 11 minutes in here. You're like, oh, damn. Anderson's been playing the drums. Everybody call that halftime out. Like everybody says, I mean, Prince, and I mean, Prince was amazing. Right. Well, it's like. Now that's number one. Pretty epic. That's number one. I think two of your poor kids. Yeah. I was crying during that whole thing. I'm like, these kids are from down the block. And Tipper Gore was saying they were going to destroy America. Yeah. And everyone hated them. And they were the poor kids and look at them. And they are the show. Yeah. Oh, I loved it. So you have the vibe that the old guys have now about the young guys. That's right. That's right. Yeah. That's poor. Yeah. Like you got old poor kid thing going on. Yeah. Exactly. That's my gateway. We are. Yeah. We're like, let's talk about coming from nothing right now. Yeah. And then only in the world. These other burgers on the world. Nothing could be better. Well, Brandy, this has been a delight. Thank you for joining us. So nice. I'm really glad. Anna's got good taste. She sure does. When she picks a mentor boy, it's few and far between. Sure. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming. This has been so lovely. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I've always wanted to talk to you guys. Oh, my god. He's coming back. Yeah. Happy back. Oh, we love you. Stay tuned for the five checks so you can hear all the facts that were wrong. Okay. We just ordered drinks from Aeroan. Okay. And I'm putting in and I'm trying to order it and it's saying you you have to meet at the door. This can't be left. That's weird. Okay. Sure. Then it says you have to show your ID. And we ordered you something new. You think that's just a standard disclaimer. In case you've ordered alcohol. No, because I order Aeroan like every day or not every day. I mean, but I order a lot. I bet you can predict my reaction to this. Which is like, fine, fucking, we won't order from you. You don't leave it. You got to show ideas. Like this is my my beef with the place that wouldn't require to signature. No matter what. It's like our policy. It's like, great. Well, then I won't I won't be using you. Okay. Well, I already ordered it. You didn't predict that. No, I didn't because what I of course think is so you got a new drink. We don't know about. It's like new and strange. And it has colostrum in it. I think that's the only strange part. Everything else is not new. But like maybe that is what's requiring it. You got to be an adult to drink or maybe you got to be a baby to drink. Oh, to show your under 21. You got to show your under two years old. Oh my god. Well anyway, we didn't anticipate that being that said. We didn't. But I think this is interesting that I do too. You got the breast milk in your coffee. There was no. I know I want to make yeah, it has colostrum in it. There's no alcohol in it. So why would you need exactly that's why not. But now I have to check. Okay, I would detect alcohol immediately. That's interesting. That was in last night's meeting. Tell me. So just people are kind of one person told a story about ordering a, you know, a coke and it came. There's always these moments for alcohol. Oh, inevitably you're gonna bump into some real alcohol. Oh my god. Yeah, tell me how that goes. Yeah, my, you know, my second dad and I were one time in and Wyoming and, um, and I ordered a diet coke and he ordered a ginger ale and our drinks came and, and we both took a sip of them almost at the same time. And I mean, it was like, oh, this is jack and diet. And then he's putting his drink down and he goes, but this is what was really funny. As he goes, try this. Is there a jet like? Oh god. He just doesn't really think he's doing what you would normally say something funny. Yeah. And I was like, I'll take your word for it. He's like, oh, yeah, you shouldn't try it. But it was just kind of instinctual. Like does this smell funny? Right. Totally. It was like, does this taste like? Anyways, they were both laced with Jack Daniels. Jack ginger and a jack and diet. I have a lot like, look, I have a lot of respect for servers and food staff and chefs and kitchen workers. But that makes me so angry. It does? Yes. That kind of mistake only that one. Yeah. Is so bad. It is so dangerous. People don't understand what can happen. Sure. Sure. Sure. I mean, look, we could, we could look at this from a lot of different angles. I would just say right out of the gates, what percentage of people in the restaurant in any given time are recovering addicts. It's like a lot to give you have to protect the most vulnerable. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I imagine he's got tickets and he, you know, or she, the bartender got, you know, six different cogs and Jack and I see how it happened. I see how it happened. I'm not like, but I do think it is incumbent is your responsibility if you're bartender or what a, yeah, I guess it was bartender, right? Yeah. Yeah. So we got a restaurant they got to put in the drink order with the bartender. Yeah. To be aware if there shouldn't be alcohol in the drink. But wait, you know, it could be for a kid. Well, thank you. I was just, I just had gotten to that place in my head. Where it's like, if it's happened to me and it's happened to Tom and it's happened to, well, almost every dude in the meeting had had this, yes, surely kids are getting and do they think, like, oh, this just tastes funny, but I still like soda. No, it's probably like ew, I have something's wrong with it. I like to think that some kid just powered through it. It became alcoholic. Well, again, most people who drink don't become alcoholic. A lot of us do. This is a fun like philosophical conversation, which is like, I don't think it's the responsibility of the masses to be changing their whole life because some small percentage of the population has a thing. Well, I generally don't either, but this isn't changing anything. This is just being careful. Well, no, I mean, even the notion that like, well, you can't have a, if a kid drank, he'd be an alcohol like, well, it's like, well, that's not true. Most people that drink are an alcoholic. Yes. That's fine. Yeah, but I think that would be a common kind of reaction. Well, no, I think they're just like, don't give my kid alcohol like that's very, that's bad. Do you want to decide when your kid has alcohol? Yeah. And, and it is illegal. I'm so sorry. I haven't, I do not disturb, but for some reason, it's still, yeah, do not disturb. Why would you be buzzing? See, it's like my, my door, but you're not supposed to buzz. Oh, it's because it's Kristen. Oh, she hasn't override. She hasn't override. If she calls and now I'm realizing she hasn't override. If she texts too. Does she have to call twice or text twice or just immediately isn't over. she calls it'll actually ring. - Oh, that's nice. - I learned that from Total Wolf. Remember, he was in the interview and his phone rang twice. Once with his wife and once was one of his children. - Oh, yeah, that's right. - And he said, oh, and I was like, I didn't even know you could do that. - That's cool. Okay, I did look it up and cold brew coffee with cowboy colostrum. Though like, what does it mean cowboy colostrum? But okay, heavy cream and maple syrup. That's all it's saying. - Oh, enhanced with lukema, mocha, and sea salt. - Maybe they don't want kids to have mocha 'cause it's a lot of caffeine or some shit. - Maybe. - I'm just thinking that like, it's a policy gone awry. It's like they flag some certain thing and now this got ensnared in it. - I bet colostrum, I bet it's colostrum, but we need to figure out why. - You need it further. - Oh my god, what if you get addicted to colostrum now? - Okay, I'm gonna get in trouble for this. But it's in keeping with this conversation we already have it. - I just had read that they're like sentencing someone who is in between, I don't know what chain of events they were involved with the Matthew Perry overdose. - Oh, I've heard about this. - They just got sentenced. And I think someone else got sentenced. - Like a doctor, I think, right? - Yeah, and my kids and I were talking about it. And I was like, no, that's not how it should work. And my analogy was Yamaha Kawasaki. All these motorcycle companies, they all sell motorcycles that go 200 miles an hour. They're for sale, the dealership. A 16-year-old can walk in and buy it. They don't have to prove at all that they've ever ridden a thing. And quite often those kids go out and they die on motorcycles. It's way too much motorcycle. - Yeah. - That is living in a country with liberty. Like you do have the right to be a mountain climber, to do dangerous activities. - That's not the same. - Well, no, it's identical if you remove the word legal or illegal. And you just say that there are many products that are sold that are just inherently dangerous. Motorcycles, drugs, guns, alcohol, cigarettes, cars. There are products that are dangerous. And I really believe, and the less, it's a situation like Big Tobacco Ward, they know it causes cancer and they're stifling that information. Like I think you should have full awareness as a consumer of what the, I think it should be like, yeah, you're gonna buy this motorcycle. It goes 200 miles an hour and you kill yourself really easily. Okay, now if you wanna do that, that's like your life. So no, I don't think someone that sells a dangerous product should go to jail because someone else use the dangerous product and kill themselves. I think it's the person who used it, has to have the responsibility. - Well, not if it's a doctor. It's a doctor, I think, that got in trouble. I think, maybe I'm wrong about that. - Yeah, but again. - If it's not a doctor, I'm more aligned with you, but. But let's just say that what I guarantee is that the doctor hadn't given him a dosage that killed him. What I guarantee is that he had multiple sources or stockpiled or whatever and he took on his own a dose that no doctor would ever recommend. - Well, we don't know that. - We, I do. - How? Like Michael Jackson's doctor also gave him way too much. Like they're giving what the people are asking for and that's the whole issue. They have a do-no harm obligation. And if it's just like, well, this person's paying me and just wanting more than I really I should give, but I'm giving it, that's a problem. - Yeah, we would need more, but I can tell you. - We wouldn't. - From everyone I've known, who's overdosed in the last 30 years of sobriety. No one was taking it as prescribed. - Right, but this was ketamine. - Yeah, so there is a safe dosage of ketamine. A lot of people in this country have ketamine prescriptions. - Yeah. - But like if I got a prescription for percussette, right? The one point knows, the big boys. And it says, take one every four hours. And I take that jar and I take eight right away. - Yeah. - That's on me. - No, that is on you though. - And what he did, what our boy did was he OD. He took way more than was prescribed to him. For sure. - Well, I don't know if it's for sure because then every doctor who had an OD, had someone OD would be in trouble, and that's not the case. - Right, the only thing that makes the, I think this reason this person is going to jail is because A, the person that died was famous. I think a bunch of people of OD don't ketamine and other drugs and there was not even an investigation. Well, I guess someone OD. That's what happens on drugs when they're abused. But because it's him, they're like, well, we got to figure out who killed Matthew Perry. That's not what, no one killed him. - Well, again, I don't know that this is, I don't know enough about this doctor or what was being prescribed. - I do know that I read what he was on when he died and it was an insane amount of ketamine and it was not what his prescription was. - He was a drug counselor that connected Perry to the ketamine queen who delivered him the ketamine. - Yeah, I did. - Ketamine queen is tricky. - Sorry. - That's like, he did it, no one else did it. He did it. - Yeah, but if you're a doctor, you can't. - You think ketamine queen was a doctor? - I assume, let me look it up. Yes, this person, British American convicted felon and drug dealer known as the ketamine queen. She gained international attention following her indictment and subsequent guilty plea and connection with the overdose of actor Matthew Rayland. Let me see if she's a doctor. She looks kind of Indian. - Kind of Indian. - Prosecutor's alleged that she operated a drug distribution network from her North Hollywood home for several years, sentenced to 15 years in prison for her role in supplying the ketamine that would cause Perry's death. - Just think how many people drink to a fatal level that happens a ton? - Yeah, but you can get in trouble for over serving. - I can go into the store and I can buy 10/50. - Oh yeah, yeah. - So we would agree the Jack Daniels company should not be held responsible 'cause someone went and bought it. - Now how does she even get the ketamine this lady? She's probably, I mean it's clearly illegal, what she's doing is illegal. So that's why she's going to jail. - Yeah, she's a drug dealer. - Drug dealers, you know, but I agree that if you, I think drug dealers in certain cases should go to jail. - What do you do? - Yeah, you're getting illegal drugs off the black mark. I mean, yes, you're engaging in a lot of illegal activity. - I think the time that I'd be fine in the drug dealer going to jail would be when the drug dealer knowingly sold someone fentanyl under the guise of it being heroin knowingly. - Yeah, I mean, obviously. - Because then a murderer. - Yeah, exactly. Then the person that got it can't really dose it correctly. And they have deceitfully misled this person which may have caused their death. But if I'm selling you crack co-canago, - Hey, bro, this is crack. You know, do what it with you. I really don't think it's on the person who sold that. - But they got it illegally. - No one gets crack legally. - That's kind of when I'm trying to have the conversation about is because we labeled alcohol legal in this other thing illegal. Yet we clearly think 'cause alcohol is legal that no one's responsible someone drinks themselves to death. And so you're saying that because one is classified by the government as illegal and one is legal, that that should make the person who sells it go to prison. - Yes, because there are regulations on actual alcohol. It's labeled, 12%, like crack is not. Like if crack was legal, then it would probably be under some sort of system where you'd see the amount. It would be like supervised in a way. - And yellow would be held responsible. - Yeah. - Right. - But that's fine then. I am fine. If we lived in a world where it was legal and it was regulated, I mean, this was the whole, this is the whole debate about marijuana for years and years and years, which now. - And all these people went to prison and were held responsible for other people's abuse of something. - Yeah. - And I think we all now agree that was wrong. - Right, but also because now just 'cause marijuana isn't a problem. But crack is a problem. You agree. - Well, let's keep it to ketamine 'cause you can get a prescription for ketamine. There is ketamine therapy. People do use ketamine therapeutically. I personally don't think it's a great idea to use ketamine therapy. - That's why. - Because I've seen it go wrong. More than I've seen it go right. And not even in death. I've seen a very temporary patch for something that long-term wasn't a good solution. - Right. And do you think it has a risk of addiction? - Yeah, just like cigarettes, alcohol, coffee, most things that-- - Do you think it's more or less, I'm actually asking 'cause I don't know a lot about ketamine. - Yeah, I've never taken ketamine, so I don't know how sticky it is. I know how sticky opiates are. - Yeah, exactly. - I know how sticky cocaine is. I know how sticky alcohol is. I notice cigarettes, of all of them cigarettes are the stickiest. There's a bunch of junkies that'll tell you quitting smoking was harder than quitting heroin. - But again, that's why because it's legal, it says. Basically it says on the box, this is gonna kill you. But my only issue with cigarette manufacturers were when they knew it was causing something. - Yeah, horrible. - And they silenced that. And so to me, if you have total transparency, I do think I wanna live in a country where people get to evaluate the risks they wanna take. And then also I don't think it's fair to the 90% of people, or even the 94% of people who try cocaine and don't become addicted. [BLANK_AUDIO] I think it's fair to those people that because us 8% have a problem, you guys can't do it. I don't think that's fair. Well, we can't do it because it's not regulated and there is fentanyl in it and there is like there's so many, it's not, are you saying you think cocaine should be legalized? No, I don't think that. I think that we've seen the experiment run and it doesn't work. That's my opinion on many classifications of drugs. Yeah, me too. Addictive and I think the barriers that exist are what help going from 94% of people never getting addicted to, you know, I think if it were $5 for an 8 ball and it was at 7/11, I think it was a massive uptick. You would. Yes, it would affect every single person whether you're an addict or you're not. So that's one topic. Do I think it should be legalized? And then another topic is do I think people are responsible for distributing a product that's dangerous and someone abuses it and dies. I don't. I don't think the kid who breaks the speed limit on his new Yamaha or one is going 180 on the five and kills himself. I don't think the dealer is responsible. I don't either. I don't think Yamaha's responsible. But again, the difference is I just we're I do think the difference is legality. I know, but that's this really we would agree that's arbitrary. Like we'd wasn't legal two years ago. And now it is. Right. And so now we now we think that it's like, well, that should have been consistent because like it it doesn't do that much harm. There's been we have enough. We have enough evidence of all of these drugs at this point to to rank. I'll lethal. Exactly. And lethal to yourself and like, you know, to society, like what it's going to cause. No, you can even more fun debate, which is sometimes the ones that aren't lethal are weirdly more dangerous, so like weed and alcohol. Yeah. I think bizarrely, they can take more of a toll on your overall life because they're not so extreme, that you can habitually do them forever and lose big chunks of your existence. Yeah. Weeds going to be, I think at some, there's going to be one, there'll be some study at some point when we have 20 years of data on what happened with this experiment. And although I'm in favor of it, we're going to see it's just a more innocuous, it has more innocuous in subtle consequences that are currently being completely ignored. Sure. In a way that maybe, maybe if someone is addicted to caffeine and then they can't sleep and then they have a, you know, like, yes, there are consequences for anything you do, anything you can eat sugar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, where do we draw the line? Yeah. And I think you have to draw it at, you have to draw it somewhere. Obviously, I think we both agree. We can't just have a free for all. We have the data for it. Back in the early 1900s when these curals, when people went town to town with curals, in 30% of the cural was opium, you saw, there was a moment in America where like 30% of the country was addicted to opiates. So you, we have data that when you make it wildly available and it's not illegal, it's bad. You're going to have a third of the population. So back to the weed, what makes me think we will at some point re-evaluate it a little bit, not to say we're ever going to make it illegal again, or that we should. But my anecdotal experience is I drive Delta to school every morning on my motorcycle. And when I am, well, both directions, but certainly I'm more aware of it when I'm driving home by myself. I smell weed the whole way home in LA. Yeah. And I have to go like, oh, yeah. So now that it's legal, a lot of people have transferred to many, many people are getting stone the second they wake up and on their way to work and walking around in the morning. Okay. I'm not judgmental of it, but I am suggesting that's going to show a little verbal that we're going to see some, some downriver consequences of people waking up and immediately getting stone. I mean, my guess is yes, but I also don't know. We have Seth Rogan, you know, he's extremely not affected negatively at all. For sure. It's a problem for me because I don't like weed, I personally, I don't take it, I don't enjoy it. So I don't feel like I have a dog in this fight, really? Here's what you don't see. I saw it one time. Well, I've seen it a couple times. I saw it in Russia when I was there in 1996, I guess. And it had, you know, the wall had only fallen at that point for what seven years or something. And driving in the morning from the boat to Catherine's palace, I saw hundreds if not thousands of men drinking vodka at 8 a.m. on the sidewalk. It's cultural. Yep. And you go, hmm, that town has a drinking problem and then we went to Sweden right after. And then we learned of Sweden's taxation of vodka because Sweden went, we got a drinking problem and so they wanted to start addressing it somehow. And what I'm saying is if you were driving home from anywhere at 8 a.m. in the morning and you saw one in three people chugging alcohol, vodka or beer, you go, huh, this isn't great. But weed, this is what I'm talking about. It's a knock you as quality, which is like, yeah, do believe you can smoke weed and drive your car and smoke weed and probably go to work and do a fine job. I don't think you're going to do a hundred percent. I don't think. I don't either, but I don't also know. Like, I don't know because I, I just don't have any other, it's just interesting how it's already like folded into our culture and it's kind of like you, you observe people smoking weed all morning in a way and it might be because it's still, I mean, not in a, it's not really new, but kind of it's still kind of new legal. Yeah. And as you said, like, we could be seeing one in three people drinking all day and we don't. And I think that probably has to do with just the fact that it's been around for so long and. And you can't function as well and you can't, if you show up to where you smell like it and socially, we're like, no, you can't drink in the morning. Right. It's interesting. You can smoke weed in the morning. It's fine. No one really gives a shit. I mean, I think most people do. I think most people if they hear that are like, what, that's crazy. I think some people maybe don't, but I think the majority of people who, who hear that somebody woke up in the morning and started smoking weed immediately are probably a little concerned about that person. Yeah. I am. Well, I just saw this. I saw these two ladies. They have a podcast about ADHD. They're both ADHD and they are talking about why many ADHD people love weed because it's a dopamine dysregulation condition and that you can get dopamine from the weed. So initially they're talking about it's almost like heavily in support of ADHD people using it or at least maybe not feeling guilty that they're using it because it is like a good medicine for them. But then they were also very quite honest to say and 36% of ADHD cannabis users have cannabis use disorder. Yeah. So it's like, it's over a third and I also think we, it has benefited from the fact that we've been saying forever, it's not addictive. It is not physically addictive. You're not going to go through withdrawals of the physical variety when you stop doing it. But you're going to go through a lot and you, in your brain chemistry is going to adjust for a while. And so I also know that we're being totally honest about like, what's not addictive. You know, many, many people are fully addicted to weed and their tolerance has gone up and up and their dosage has gone up and up and up and up and up and they're smoking, you know. A lot of addictions are also mental like so many are that will kill you. Like not, not, not just, it's not just like a silly thing to say, it's very, you know, my brother used to smoke so much weed. It was like, it's not addictive. It's not addictive. You are addicted, I can tell because you keep getting in trouble for this. It's having a consequence and you can't or won't stop. Right. So maybe yes, it's not physically addictive, but mentally you are addicted. Yeah, yeah. And you probably won't suck a dick for weed and you probably won't break into a house for weed. Right. And there's like, there is even when you're jonesing for it, it doesn't reach the level of jonesing for opiates or jonesing for, yeah. Say tune for more armchair expert if you dare. It's fascinating. Yeah, it is interesting. I think, I think though, we'll have a bit of a reckoning. I think it should stay legal. Again, I don't think that the millions of people that are doing it like on the weekends or relax or taking a gummy to go to sleep, I don't want those people to lose that. No. They should have that. Also, dickheads like me are going to fuck it up and abuse it. And then there's also going to probably be some questions about when you start doing it at what age and what kind of effects it has on your brain development. Yeah. If you're a heavy weed user, maybe they will start, maybe eventually they'll be, is it right now? Is there an age thing? Yeah. 18. Well, I don't know if it's 18 or 21. It would make sense that it was 21, but I have no clue. I would assume it would be 21 and it, and it, I probably wouldn't get carted. - I know that. - 21. - 21. - It's 21? - Yep. - That's a really big ding-ding-ding, because I wanted to-- - Bokin' Carter. - Yep, I was at Chili's this past weekend. - Oh, with your mom! - He was my mom and dad. - He was an orange chili. - We did. - Yeah, great. - Yeah, it was my idea. - Oh good, did you get the potato skins? - I didn't. I got the quesadilla, which is my thing there. - Yeah. - And the problem is my mom had made quesadillas the day before homemade. Homemade tortillas, homemade everything, and they were so good. - Dormet. - They were really gourmet. And then I had this idea about the Chili's quesadillas, 'cause it's so nostalgic. - Yeah. - And it was fun. It was good. It was fine. I just probably shouldn't have had it the next day after these like really one of a kind quesadillas. - Yes. - We were at, obviously, TJ. My mom and I went to TJ Maxx, obviously. - Yeah. - I was like, "Wow, you guys hit Fridays and Chili's "in the weekend." - We went to TJ Maxx, which we always do. We went to Coles, we went to Nordstrom Mac, they're all in the same area. We're shopping and then there's the Chili's right there. Our Chili's were like a group going. And I asked, oh, my mom had asked earlier what do you want to do for dinner? And I was like, "I don't know." And then I said, "Have you guys been to the Chili's? "Do you guys still go there?" And she was like, "Yeah, we go." And she was like, "Do you want to do that for dinner?" And I was like, "Yeah, I do want to so that my dad met us." - Okay, what was he? - He was at home, he wasn't going to TJ Maxx. - And his retirement. - Yeah, no, he's not going to TJ Maxx and Nordstrom Rackx stuff. - No, I'd rather die. - Yeah, he was home and then he came to meet us and we ate there and I got carted. - Oh, lovely, that's cute. - It was cute. - Lattering. - It was cute and then the-- - What was your cocktail at Chili's? - It was a margarita, I didn't finish, it was bad. - Super sugary? - Yeah, and I said, "Can I get a Cosamegos one, both skinny." And those were two separate things, basically. And he was like, "Oh, I don't know, I have to ask." And I was like, "Charge me for the expense of Cosamegos one, but just make it skinny." - Yeah, no way, that's gonna happen back there. - It didn't happen, yeah, I don't know what happened, but it tasted very bad. - Right, 16 year old kid made that cocktail. - I know. (laughing) - So-- - Was it so beautiful in Georgia? Is it green as hell right now, spring? - It's pretty green, yeah, it's nice. - Okay. - It's nice. - It's nice, yeah. - Any thoughts of moving back while you're there? - No. - I never have that. - Yeah, you never have that. - I have, I have like, "Oh, like I'm glad I touched down here, "a couple times a year." - Have you had a thought I had in Michigan, which is like, "Oh my gosh, I could live "in the super nice neighborhood now?" - Oh. - 'Cause that's what really fucked me up. That's what had me almost getting a house on a certain lake in Michigan. - Really? - Yeah, just like, "Oh, I used to drive by the house." You know, I mean, every time I went to West Point Village anywhere, which is regular, is one stretch Pontiac Trow and look at these mansions with these huge yards and they're on, long lake, I think, lower straights, upper straights. And yeah, the notion that I could live there became very intoxicating. - Yeah. - And like I could almost not resist. - I thought better of it at the end. - Yeah. - Sure. - But I had found a house and I was flying there to get it. 'Cause I was just like, I can't believe I can live where the basketball players lived. - Yeah. So that's interesting. I don't have that. I mean, I definitely drive around there and I think like, - You know one difference I think between you and I was kids, I coveted wealth. - I, okay. I didn't covet wealth in the same way you did, but I still did have aspirations to have a lot of money. Like, and we didn't, we lived in a nice house. Well, that is the difference. We lived in a nice house. - Yeah. - But a modest nice house. Like, my parents would get mad 'cause they would say like, it's really nice. - It is. I've seen it. It's a big, big house by American standards. It's like a 4,000 square foot house. - Less than that, but yeah, it is. But it's, yes, it is. - In like an upscale neighborhood. - It's in a subdivision. Okay, this I was trying to teach Jess about subdivisions. He didn't understand them. - Right, being from Hawaii. - Because she was fighting with me about suburbs. 'Cause I was like, you don't really understand suburbs. - Right. - And he was like. - Tell me what sub you live in. - Well, exactly. - You don't even say subdivision, you say sub. Did you say sub? - Well, no, 'cause we didn't say, we said neighborhood. - Okay. - So what neighborhood do you live in? But I don't even say that to people who don't understand it, 'cause they don't even understand what that means. - Right. - So I said, 'cause sometimes I like to do suburban Fridays here, which is us going to a movie on Friday afternoon and then going to dinner at the Americana. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - I feel so suburban to me. - Yes. - And I was, we did that. We watched Delaware's Prada and then we went to the Italian restaurant at the Americana. And you know, they bring out the bread. It's just all so suburban. - Yeah. - I was feeling very nostalgic and I was talking about the suburbs and he was like, well, yeah, I mean, yeah, Burbank is a suburb. He grew up in Burbank. - Yeah. - And I was like, no. And then he, of course, had to look up on Chad Gbt, where of course it says it is. And sure. - Burbank is a suburb of that life. - Exactly. - Yeah. - Technically it is a suburb. - But a subdivision is a very specific thing. - Well, that's what I said, but you don't have subdivisions. Like a real like a suburb to me. - Someone who grew up in New York, there are three or four streets you enter the subdivision on. And through those three or four streets, a web of streets are connected to it. And it's its own little world. - And it's house suburb. - And it's on a main road. - And yeah, yeah. And that's how everything was built where I grew up. In Michigan. - Yes. - In my elementary, you'd go, what sub do you live in? And it was either heritage farms, Oxford acres, Los Algardons. - Yeah. - There were only four options. - Okay. So for us, yeah, what neighborhood do you live in? - Okay. - And it's a huge neighborhood, like 800 houses. - Yeah. - Big development. - So it was really exciting for Halloween. You wanted to go in Riverbrook, you know. - Yeah. - Yeah, I was really excited. - It was Riverbrook the nicest sub in-- - No, so that's what I'm saying. - Okay, there's a nicer sub. - So many, so many. So there were St. Ives, that was really fancy. - It's also funny. - It is so funny. So that's, and like I had friends who lived in these. - Yeah, yeah. - And sugar. - For your tits? - I can't believe I'm forgetting. This is, that's just 'cause coffee. But anyway, yes, there are some areas that's like, oh my God, if you live there, like you've really made it. - Can I tell you the coveted wealth part? - Yeah. - So on the weekends, very, very regular activity for us, maybe even every other weekend. We would leave our city welfare apartment and we would get mom's pinto and we would drive to Bloomfield Hills. - That was a neighborhood? - Yeah, it was a, you know, 25 miles away. Not a subdivision, it is a suburb, it's an area. - Okay, got it. - And we would pull up to the end of driveways and stare at the house. And my mom would say, these people went to college. - Oh. - But if you wanna live here, these people went to college. Then she'd drive you another nice house. This person's probably a doctor or they're a lawyer, you know, like, do you like that? - Yep. - This is how you get it. And we did that all the time. - Yeah. - So I do think that compounded my obsession with like, well, in like, oh my God, that's so out of reach and we want that thing. So yeah, the lake with the basketball parts houses, I was very prime. - That is, that used to be a thing. Like, yeah, when we were going to vacations, we'd just drive around and look at houses. - It's so fun, I love it. I still love it. - It's weird now that I'm thinking about that. Like, I would never go on a vacation and do that. But we did it all the time. Anytime we went somewhere in a car, it was, yeah, we would go to neighborhoods and drive around and look at houses. - Yeah, yeah. - Strange. - See how the other folks live. - I guess a bit like, well, I don't know, so funny. It's all so funny. - We're watching Zillog on Wild. We're now addicted to it. We have a guest coming up. - You do. - We don't have to deduce who that would be. But if you ever want to see Zillog on Wild, it's from the Instagram account Zillog on Wild. So it's these crazy listings on Zillog. And the show goes and visits these houses. And there was the cutest Indian couple last night. - Oh. - In Orlando, Florida. - Oh, a lot of them there. - And they lived in a castle. It looked like Excalibur Hotel in Vegas. - Yeah. - And inside were like swords and all this stuff. And they were-- - Was it Indian stuff in there? Or like-- - No, it was all like nights and stuff. - Okay, interesting. - Yeah, and it's just, the whole tableau is so cute 'cause they're from India really. And the dad is like, clearly he's been successful here. - Yeah. - I'm like, look at this, this guy lives in a castle in America. - I know. - There's a thing he's so happy like. You would not want to live in this castle. - I know. - I want it. But there was something so sweet and it's life affirming. - Because it's the idea of America. - This guy's in America on the five acres in a castle. - In Camelot. - Yes. And then they show the children. I guess the children talk them into buying the house. And the children, it was on eBay, which I didn't even know they sold homes on eBay. Yeah, it was just really cute 'cause the mom did all the talking. A lot of it was very-- And followed a lot of my stereotypes. - Oh. - But in the adorable way, the things I love about. Like she handled all the talking. He just kind of sat there. - He not it. - And then he got to show his sword. You know, like when it was time to do like the sword stuff. And then the cute thing was eventually we saw the kids. - Mm-hmm. How were they? - In their 20s. - Okay. taking advantage of their parents. In the sun, I had like a fucking long ponytail, fucking tattoos everywhere. And I was like these second generation. I'm not. It's so sad actually. You talking about your brother just made me think of the whole the whole scenario. And I was like, oh yeah, man, you got like if you're if you're emigrating here from India, like you have a lot coming your way. There's so many challenges for you. There's racism. There's this and that. You got to find your footing. And then the reward is you'll give your your kids everything. And they will likely go berserk American style. Well, it's all connected. It's you're going to go berserk American style because you have to be American. Yeah, you have to very quickly assimilate into this culture and be whatever it needs you to be. And you don't really know how. It's just a hard road. They they they they travel and I want to honor them. It's like one experience, you know, you you you you go through hell and back. I know to make it here and to provide this opportunity. And they're like, I think that I'm going to blow joints and get that. That's why I'm such a good daughter. Yes, yes. Who would be sure now to be when I always been a good daughter. Yeah, you mean you mean because I did do a crazy thing. And you could be it worked out also you could have been moving back at 36 years old and you could have been in this doc about Zill. No, no, no, that's not that's not in that was not in my cards. Maybe I wouldn't have had all this, but I would have figured out something. Yeah. Um, we have much different assessments of ourselves had this not worked out for me. I would be penniless. That's so crazy. That you think that I know. So I was just talking about it with Kristen when you're talking about somebody. And it was like, just get a fucking job, right? Like just get a job. You know, that you didn't get the management position. Like at some point get a job, right? Yeah. And I was I was like enjoying that being a little judgmental. And then I was like, you know, huh? If I'm being that honest, like I could not I couldn't have a job. I could be an Uber driver. I could be at 7/11. There's no manager, but I could not at this point have a 30 year old boss who I thought was dumb and was making me do stupid things. I couldn't do it. I'd rather be penniless. I just don't have an image. What if you have a family? You can't just choose to be penniless. You have to support your family. Well, luckily there are I would be an Uber driver. I would be something where I could be an independent contractor. What I'm saying, I really have always been terrible at. Yeah. And I'm admitting it. I've not been great when I have a boss. A boss? It most people have idiot bosses. I'm not talking about good bosses, but you're also getting a good boss. Well, even if you have a good boss, you're not going to see eye to eye on everything at all. And you're not going to be quiet about that. But listen, can you work on it? No. No, no, no. I know who I am. I'm 51. No, now. I don't mean now. I mean, now. Well, it would have happened much earlier. It would have happened earlier in life. I think we can't tell people they can't change these behaviors because like, you can. Well, I'm telling those people, you probably got to be an Uber driver. You need to be something where you don't have a boss. Okay. Yes, sure. You can be something where you don't have a boss. Or you can work on yourself and decide like, okay, this boss is fucking annoying. Like, I hate him. And I hate that he's telling me what to do. And guess what? I need a job. And I need to support my family. And I can go home and forget about this part. Like you can. You're 100% right. That's how people should be. I completely agree with you. People can't. And they can be. I am not that way. I disagree. You don't give yourself enough credit for change. You've changed a lot. And it's again, as you say, like, it's when push comes a shove. But that's what would this would require. You would be just telling on myself, you know, I've got some bad characteristics. I know. This is one of them. I know that. I don't do well with authoritarian. You don't. But I think you don't. But I think you, you could in a specific circuit given your life had gone a different way. That's why I couldn't direct commercials. I did a few. I got through them. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You were in one. Yes. And I was fine that day. Yeah. You were great. You were great. But I didn't like it so much that I'm like, I would rather not direct. I know. But you were already rich. So this is my point. If you, if you weren't. Yeah. And you needed the job. You didn't need to have an example. So I was broke when I worked for CPK. I know. But can I couldn't do it? I couldn't have him tell me I got a six. I know. Or seven on my punctuality when I had been early every day. I couldn't resist. Yeah. I just couldn't. I couldn't handle the injustice. I know. And I lost that job or I quit it. That's okay, though. You lost a job. To me, that's okay. That was weird. He told you I bet corporate told him to do that. Yes. Of course. Not his fault necessarily, but whatever. You quit because you're like, I can't work for this corporation that is gaslighting me. Yeah. Lying to me. And I won't do it. So I'm quitting. That's fine. I am fact-thinking in some ways. That's noble. Okay. That doesn't mean that you couldn't have gone to a different job and worked for someone. I was so lucky that I had a job for 14 years. Exactly. But my bosses were my mom and my brother. Yeah. But in some times, that's the worst. That can't be the worst. No, because we already knew how to deal with each other. You're right. A lot of family businesses. Yeah. It does that that part gets tricky. It worked great for us because my mom knew the more I stay out of his business and the more responsibility I give him, the better he'll be. Yeah. Yeah. So she just stayed the fuck out of the way. And almost every year I got more and more responsibilities where I was oh my gosh. The colostrum has arrived. They make you show an ID. They did. Well, if you take a sip and you taste alcohol, let me know. Okay. You'll know if there's alcohol in it. How will you know if there's alcohol in it? Because you'll drink the whole thing on one sip. I'll ask Rob if he can run up and get a pack of camelites. He'll hit me after you're done with it. And then I'll figure out where to get cocaine. I know. I know. If you did, if there was alcohol and you drank it and you relapsed and then you did cocaine and like we could sue heroin. I don't think that would. Oh, a hundred percent we would. After the point I just made I would never sue. Well, I'm cutting that obviously so that we can sue. And then that will be so exciting. Talk about buying a house in Bloomington Hills or whatever with the sue. The sue in the blue field hill. Sugar loaf. My God. That was going to kill me. Sugar loaf had really big houses. How's the colostrum? This thing is fucking delicious. Oh, good. I'm willing to show my ID to get it. Oh, see. Look at that. That's true. Okay. I want to do some facts. Yeah, let's do some facts. So this is like all connected because this is for Brandy Carlisle. And she grew up modestly and she could now buy a lot of. And she could definitely buy a house on upper straits, middle straits or lower straits or long like those are the big boys. I really liked her. I know. She was really, really, really liked her. What I liked most I was talking to Phineas about her. What I love is how unapologetically ambitious she is. And she doesn't pretend she's not. And I love that. And I, I think it's weirdly a good message to put out there because I think a lot of people think one need only be a genius artist. And that's not you got to call all the clubs and get out of my kite. And like, you know, there's just a ton of ambition in the next two. I agree. Yeah. Okay. Our civil partnerships. Okay. I was looking up the civil partnership and and gay marriage timeline in England. Okay. So same sex marriage in England and Wales became legal on March March 13th, 2014. Civil partnerships were 2005. And I looked up because she said those had to be like very secular. And that's correct. They must remain legally secular. Meaning the registration process cannot include religious words, music or hymns. Wow. Would they send a monitor there to make sure that didn't happen in your ceremony? I don't know. It's just the honor agreement or whatever they call it. Our system. Maybe. I don't know. But yeah. Oh, was Ross Kunkel the drummer? Did he play on tapestry, the album tapestry? Carol King. Yes. He did. He did do that. He did do that. He did it. And he does it. Oh, you said you like invented a reality or like a show or something where you don't know the person's age, but you hear their voice. And because she was on the phone with her wife, her now wife. In fact, she was an old lady. Yeah. That is a current that's currently a reality show. Oh, it is. It's called Age of Attraction. It's on Netflix. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Oh, I should watch that. You want to hear the trailer? Yeah. Because we might have to watch this with the camera. kids when Zillow runs out. I have dated guys who are my age because it was the right thing to do, and it didn't work out, obviously. Here, you'll be dating and even committing, without ever knowing how old your partner is. Are you ready? Yeah. I don't know if these guys are my grandpa's age. But you don't know that the spice girls are. And couldn't be one. That's the best 3 minute date I've ever had to knock the lie, like you two would you have mommy issues? If you're not as hot as my mom, I'm not going to marry you. Huh. If you feel as if you've found that special connection, all that's left is revealing. Your age. I am. Get your seatbelt on. Oh my god. I didn't even know there were 60-year-olds here. Well, okay, I was going to say my only issue with this show, as I'm seeing it, is they get to see each other. So it's like, but. Or leave this experience the same way you entered it along. I'm definitely worried what would my family think. Children? Yeah. And you hated babysitting. All right. We got it. I guess that shows really more about how well can you hide your age because we're seeing the people. We are seeing them. So a lot of shockers, like clearly what's going to be the shockers, a lot of people are much older than they look and a lot of people are much younger than they look. Yeah, but maybe, yes, but I think it is saying, like, that is what they look, these are the people. So, so who cares what their age is. It's just a number Monica. It's just a number. Yeah. That's what, that's what they're trying to do. Yeah. Anyway, people are watching that. I'm going to watch that. Okay. I met the kids would like that. They would like to support back. And that's it. Really not a lot of facts. Well, I really enjoyed her immensely. Me too. Yeah. I really like her. I love her. I love her. I love her. All right. Love you.