Boyz II Men's "Motownphilly" w Shawn Stockman: Part Two

I'll listen to this. Let me see what you can do. There's a part that might check this out. See if this one is bad. Did you hear that? Bad? Bad. Did you hear that? No. We sang "Can You Stand a Rain" to bib, right? When we first met him. Right. So-- The new edition classic. Yeah, the new edition classic. So the bad is something from another cut. Another part that we did. It was badu. That didn't get muted. Badu. Wow. So you literally sang that in this part. Can you stand the rain? Lectury, we are back for part two of our deep dive into "Boys to Man" and "Motown Philly." Last time, we talked about the origins of the song. Today, we're getting into the good stuff. The stacked vocal arrangements, the harmonies, the lyrics. And of course, the slow jams that came after today's song. And joining us once again is the man who knows those harmonies better than anyone, the group's high tenor, and four-time Grammy winner, Sean Stockton. [APPLAUSE] We're talking one song, and that song is "Motown Philly" back again by "Boys to Man." [MUSIC PLAYING] I'm actor, writer, director, and sometimes D.J. D. Allarittle. And I'm producer, DJ, songwriter, and music ologist, luxury, AKA the guy who whispers interpolation. And this is one song. The show, where we break down the stems and stories behind iconic songs across genres, telling you why they deserve one more listen. You will hear these songs like you've never heard them before. And you can watch one song on YouTube and Spotify, so many places. While you're there, please like and subscribe. So Sean, let's pick up where we left off. We talked a bit about your early days in "Boys to Man," the concept, and the beat behind "Motown Philly," but now it's time to focus in, lock in on these vocals. Can you tell us how you and the guys develop the vocal arrangements for "Motown Philly," because it seems like a herculean, like what is the divisional labor when it comes to really arranging the song? Well, first we had to understand in our minds what "Motown Philly" meant to us. And to be very particular, Nate wrote the first verse, I wrote the second. And take the picture, are you together in a room? You've heard the beat, you've gone away. We're in studio four. We're in studio four in Philadelphia. Are you working together? Are you kind of separate for your own verses? Kind of a little bit of both. Nate wrote the first part, brought it to me. So you know, OK, I got it. And then I wrote the second verse. And that's pretty much-- Sometimes is how we do it. Like, we let one guy kind of get his ideas out. We might have an idea to throw, you know, take that word out, add this, whatever. But for the most part, it's his idea. And then the same thing that went for me. And you're starting for the beat that you heard and the title, "Motown Philly," or even just the concept? Yeah, the concept and the beat. OK. Like, the concept came first. The Dallas played the beat. We wrote to the beat. And do you have a melody in mind? Or you have it? No, I mean, it's literally-- Yeah, literally alchemy. Like, you know, we heard it. Nate's listening. And he just kind of, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. And he just started-- So he's doing them both at the same time. Yeah, like, you know, he's kind of humming and, you know, kind of like how lyrics form, writes it down. And then, because Biv also wanted to incorporate ABC and Bell Biv Devole. So Nate's, OK, saying, boy, it's them and ABC. Maybe he-- he's Coach Family. Like, he wrote that. Like, never skipped the beat. Like, you know, he's just going on his thing, you know, as the great songwriter that he is. And he's just kind of like formulating what the song is about, basically breaking down the story in the first verse. He's letting you know what's going on. Who it's for, who it's about, you know, who it represents, which is the city of Philadelphia. Like, so you know all of these things within the verse and the bridge. And we wrote the bridge together back in school. We used to dream about this every day. Could it really happen? I do James Fadel. Like, really just kind of putting ourselves into how we were thinking. Then we started singing. And they said, that's really what happened. Like, when we started singing, people started to-- like, how we sounded. So we started a group. And here we are. Like, it really was all literal. It's utterly literal. Like, they're sitting across here. We're just listening, like throwing ideas out to each other and responding. I did a group, and here I mean, like, you know, just kind of playing with ideas and kicking it just for you. Yeah, I mean, like, that's what it was. And then, Nate and I wrote the chorus. Motown, Philly, Becca. But verses came first. And then the chorus. Yeah, like, like, you know, honestly, I don't know which part came first. It was just more so, like, we were just patching ideas together, him and I. And just kind of say, all right, cool. That sounds dope. Yeah, doing a little, he's got else. And like, you know what I mean? I mean, we were kind of having fun. I might find each other, yeah. Boys doing men going off. Not too hard, not too describing who we are. Like, it is literally a description and a breakdown of who we are, where we came from, who we down with, how we got discovered in four minutes. I mean, it's-- It's implicitly cannot be overstated in the sense that like the Beatles never came out with this song. They never did like-- We're from Leverpool. We're from Leverpool. We got discovered in Leverpool. We've all discovered Leverpool. We're sorry to our friend Pete Best. So, I mean, you know, it really was one of those stars aligning type of moments, being in that studio immersed in who we were and how we wanted to represent ourselves. Well, without further ado, let's dive into the vocals. My friend, take us back to that studio and these wonderful singers. Where do you want to start with this one? It's long overdue, but now, feelin' at least slamming. Boys, two men, ABC, BBD. They used to go to family. Never skipped a beat. No, welcome. OK, so that was also thought about of trying to incorporate Mike. Yeah. Yeah, Mike, you were thinking how do we get him in there? Shout out to McCary because McCary was the difference with everything. He separated us from everybody else that was a group back then. Having the bass, he was a real bass, opposed to other people who try to talk like this. Like he spoke like that. That's really voice. That's his regular fucking voice. When he would talk, the shit would rumble because he was a little-- He was really a bass. So-- He was the friend you want to record on your outgoing message on your answer machine. Yeah, 100%. Hey, it's Diolo. Yeah, that's what my voice, but that's the voice I wasn't going up in the world. Yes, but you see how you had to write that. He just spoke like that. And that's what he was the ex-factor. He was the one that really made us stand out. And there was that kind of basic guy in the group. Since the '70s. Well, there was some of that in the '70s. There was some of that in the '70s. Oh, wow, wow. Well, I'm talking specifically about the guy in the '70s who would talk and be like, hey girl. Oh, like the Barry White kind of thing. Right. It was like a guy who came in and spoke during the song. Yes, Barry White's voice was that voice. It doesn't seem to me like it's enough. It's just not enough, man. It's just not enough. Michael McCarrie's voice was that voice, like Melvin from the Temptations was-- That's one thing about Melvin. So, you know, that's the-- He really made it. And we knew because we knew what he was doing to the girls in high school. So we had to incorporate the no. You know, that-- Did you write those lines to fill out your steak line? For him to say. Yeah. You know, I love it. There's a lot of mistakes you can eat. Yeah. Yeah, and Beav helped with that, too. Like he was like, yeah, just incorporate, like again, the Philly Cheese Steak. I love that. From Philadelphia. Yeah, a Keystone Component of Philly. I had never been there before, but all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, yeah, South Street. I know where that is. South Street, the Cheese Steak, you know what I'm saying? Like that's all flat. Yes, we let everybody know what was popping within the first verse. I have to ask you because it happens halfway through this particular harmony moment. Boys, the men, ABC, BBD. Yeah, that is an unusual harmony stack. Yeah. I'm very curious how you came up with your harmony stacks. We never thought traditionally. OK. Like we approach harmonies not by technique, but by how it feels, period. It could be the weirdest note by itself. And we would go in and we would sing something that a lot of people in the booth would kind of like sit there. What the hell is he doing until you blend the other four? First of all, who is singing this? Is this you and me and me? OK, it's just two parts. It's the interval. And when you play it with the music, it makes sense. Yeah. [SINGING] it's a blues note. You're right that it is a blues. It's a tritone, which we've talked about many times on this show. This is this dissonant moment theoretically by music theory standards. But in actuality, in practice, it sounds really perfect because it's unusual and then it resolves right away. Right. And that's purpose. That was on purpose too, because you can't hang on to that note too long or else it's going to well, it's happening. So yes, and it added emphasis to the names, boys, demand, ABC, BBD. So it gave that moment and then got off of it. And that becomes an important moment as we go deeper into the Sims. We're going to hear that again, but its recap is done very in a very modern with a modern production touch. I'm just laying in the groundwork for what we're going to be hearing later. Absolutely. But are you the high note in the stack? Okay. BBD. BBD. BBD. BBD. Did you tend to be the high note consistently or did it change sort of based on the song? For the most part. I mean, you're usually the highest note here. Nate would sometimes do because Nate's kind of like a freaking Swiss army knife. He could go high, he could go low, he could go mid. I feel like sometimes he's like straight like alto, maybe even. He's baritone. Baritone. He's like a baritone bass sometimes. He laid a lot of Mike's bass parts that he would then copy. When we go out and sing in concert now, who does the bass? Nate does. But a lot of times we don't need the bass because it's just the three of us. And then sometimes our vocals are in the box. Okay. So we'll have like opposed to having background singers. We just had our own voices. Got it. Playing the backgrounds. And then we would play in between. Like like because the vocals are already there. Like if you ever see one of our shows, I'll throw in a note because the original note is already there. So I can dab. Oh, I'll just throw that at it. And then everybody in the group does the same. All right. Well, let's listen to the chorus, which actually begins the song. And then let's talk about it because many, many more questions to come about the creation of this important sound stack. Here it is. This is by the way, all four of you, right? In this chorus. Actually, this is three of us. Okay. There's no bass. Um, nope. Don't a little least. Don't a little ease. Don't a little ease. Go swing. That's the three. It's not in there. Yeah. And you go between the unison with all three of you into the stack, back and forth like that. Yep. That was kind of like our style and a sense of emphasizing one phrase, breaking off, emphasizing one phrase, breaking off. And it kind of gave each part its own moment. So now you're able to hear every word and every phrase clearer because we gave its its own identity. It makes the stack more exciting that you hear briefly. And then you don't hear it and you miss it. Yes. And then there it is again. Yes. Like we come from a school of a song having dynamics and not sounding just the same one monochromatic, monotone way. Again, another reason why music today sounds a way that it doesn't sound like back in the day because we were very key on soft, loud, high, low, up, down, left, right. We occupied the space. How can you use all those choices to make things interesting and dynamic? Well, it's really just again, that is more so about what we hear at that moment. Nothing should get in a way of anything else going on in a track or else it's it's useless. How did you know this so early on given this is one of your first and not your first recording moment? Is that something you learned? I just think intuitively. I think and this is not being pretentious at all. I think this is just a gift. It was our ability to because we were brought up in such an enriched city listening to gamble and huff. Yeah. The Mold Town Sound, Jammin Lewis, Babyface, Teddy Riley, all of those producers who did that for us as we were listening and playing on in the school yards and in the streets. They were taking us to school. You were absorbing what they were doing. We were absorbing. Not just as listeners though, but as practitioners. As practitioners. You were also localizing. You could internalize the lesson. You could feel what it was. So you would go home after you're listening to something and because you loved it so much, you sang it over and over and over again. Then as you grew older, your skills honed in more on deeper listening. So now I'm like, okay, I hear that now because I've grown a little bit musically. So you are able to break down things a little bit better. So by the time it took time. And then we all sang in choirs. So it was important for us to everybody to know each other's parts. So I'm listening to not just my part. I'm listening to the soprano. I'm listening to the bass. I'm listening to the baritone. I'm listening to the alto. Second soprano. Second out. So I'm hearing all of these. We're all hearing these things and saying, oh, this is what makes up harmony. So the fact of you doing it, the fact of you singing it actively, it's sort of like in writing, I think, Hemingway and Joan Diddy and all these writers famously talk about how they would take their favorite books and retype them. Yes. And that's how you become a good, a good alright. It's a starting point to become a writer. Yes. Internalize the feeling of what these other things you like are doing, how they're doing it. And with music, you can do the same thing. You become a clever thief. In a sense of seeing or rather hearing something that somebody did and saying, okay, I heard that. Now I'm going to take that and then add this note totally different. And the piano, for example, or a guitar, any instrument that plays more than one note is a prime example of that. You play a major, you play a minor, it's different. And you play a diminished, different, play augmented, different. But each of those is just one note changing. That's it. So a lot of times it's just those nuances musically. That's what makes music so amazing because it doesn't take a lot. It never ceases to amaze me that we're working with, you know, eight to 12 notes on any given time. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So to the way you're able to make it different, it's not just the notes you play, you change, but where you place it and then how many times you do it, or how many times you don't do it. And all those other, like, it's all in the mind of the creator. And no small thing is the actual voice too of the singer. I think that's the most underrated thing. This show we're all about breaking it down and we can find commonalities or changes, elements, beats, 808s. But at the end of the day, the individual voice of the performer, and I mean literal voice like you, the singer, Sean Stockman, but also the the fingers of a Dallas Austin and the keyboard, you know, the performances are as unique as a as a thumbprint. In your right, there are better people that can probably better articulate it better than I, but it's really about and this has always been our thing. The group I'm speaking on behalf of the guys that we might not have been the most technically sound when it comes to, oh, this is a, you know, B flat nine with a, it doesn't matter. It didn't matter to us. Like, we just, okay, I like this note. In your head, you'd hear the note. We hear it. Yeah. So, and we go, yeah, that's dope. I love that. Keep that. And then we will move on. Your artistic instinct is far more important than any amount of music theory or, you know, schooling, basically street smarts keeps you alive. And that's, that's pretty much in so many ways, like you can, you can be the smartest person in the room book wise. But if you don't know how to communicate your vision, your dream, whatever your idea is, no matter how smart, book wise, you are, it doesn't matter because no one's understanding where you coming from. I've lived a brother. Because we have lived that. Yeah, it's very important to know, to know how to communicate. A lot of people don't know this story. Like, when we recorded Cooley High Harmony, we went into mix it and none of the songs sounded the same in the sound right. So, actually, what sold 11 May records were our demos. Those are all demos. So you went backwards to earlier mixes. Yeah. Yeah. That, that, that mix of Motown Philly was the demo. Like, so, after we recorded it, you lived with it for a while, it just has such a vibe chasing the demos. Yeah. When I think about it, and from what I remember, it just didn't pop. Like, it was almost too perfect. Yeah. Yeah. And it took away the, the grit of what Cooley High Harmony, the little bit of what it had on those songs. You can almost say in the two polished version of the song, not too hard, but too small, but too small. I didn't plan on playing on it. Right, right, right. Johnny, it's a great choice. I was with you. I was with you. I'm gonna say it just so we have, you know, you can almost say that the version that they had before the fun. You can almost say that that one version of the song was not too hard, but too soft. Yeah. I like the first version. See? We like the demo better. Yeah, yeah. I like the demo better. We're chasing the demo. It happens to realize it's all organic. It was authentic. Yeah, man. Then it got too polished. Let's get to the pre-course because I think this is one of those moments where we get to build attention in the song. It's one of my favorite parts. Let's hear a little bit of the pre-course. Back in school, we used to dream about this every day. The dream just ran away. Then we started singing and they said it sounds smooth. The pre-course, ladies and gentlemen, is a component that bridges the verse to the chorus, which is called the pre-course. Something that, again, music these days are missing. It changes it. And it changes the song at the same time, keeping it the same, which keeps people locked into, "Okay, what's coming next?" All the song is a four-minute movie. So you have to keep people engaged in the song. Do you remember the mindset in how this pre-course was written? Well, it was like, "Okay, we told that part. The music changed. Now what do we say?" Because we can't stay on the same subject because the music changed. So we have two chains. So what else happened? Did someone say that out loud in the other one was like, "That's it." And so many words, we thought about what do we think about? And what is this moment? Because we were trying to encompass the moment of being in this studio working with this hero of ours, as in this heroic group of ours, that we loved rather. And it's a true story. It's based on a true story. Or do dreams fade away? Yeah, it's really just how we felt. Like, "Man, we would sit and we would just dream about this." We would pray about it. We would be like, "Man, it would be so great if we just kind of just make this something." But I think it's actually super on-brand because as a person, maybe it's because I was still in school. You know what I mean? You set up Philadelphia so well and the Motown of it all. But then you're like, "Back in school, you're like, "Oh, he's in school like me." You know what I mean? I feel like it's just more of that. And we didn't really say it in the first episode, if you haven't listened yet, please go back and listen to it again. We didn't really talk about it, but you said that you and I, we were both influenced by the public, getting me in the Black Pride. And just being a good student back in those days was like our own little mini-revolution because, you know, even though there's a Zian boys to men, we were not the boys in the hood. Like we were in some ways, we were the ones who were like trying to, we were reading comic books, we were trying to get good grades. And like that was our form of rebellion was being a good student. So I'd argue that that idea of like, you guys are dressed like you were in college, you're talking about back in school. You know, like I think it's all on-brand for like the complete image that you guys were presenting because that's who you were. For the most part, we were pretty good kids. I mean, like, I mean, we weren't troublemakers, like I said, we weren't stick up kids, we weren't drug dealers or anything like that. And although we knew friends that were sure, and we hung around those guys. I did not. Yeah, yeah. But it just, that just wasn't the route we took exactly, but we grew up around it. And we had to put it plainly bigger aspirations. Absolutely. There's a harmony part, which I muted just so we could hear the isolated vocals. Let's play it and then talk about it really. I think I know what you're going to do. Oh, yeah, this is an important part. It's also a setup for something that comes back a little bit later. Let me start it singing and they said it sounds smooth. Just that little harmonized moment. I hear Mike, Mike's back. He's at the very moment. Let me start it singing and he's at the very moment. Good classic. Do you remember the moment where you decided to harmonize that line? Just that one phrase? Well, it just made sense. Because then we started singing. It was part of the story. Again, it really didn't, we didn't try to overthink this shit. Is Dallas producing you? Or this is all you producing yourself with these choices? And this is what a lot of people don't tend to understand. Not saying that Dallas didn't produce our vocals, you know, for the most part, he definitely did. But not really. Like a lot of the stuff that we did, we were able to do it on our own. Like we arranged the harmonies, the vocals and who sang what and all those other things. Like a lot of the stuff, again, Dallas helped for sure. But a lot of people don't understand that we produced those records just as much as he did. And brought out the music that you hear from that album. Let's hear a little bit of verse two, iconic moment of the song. ♪ Live and direct from Philly Town ♪ ♪ Ribbon hype and we can get down ♪ ♪ We are ready to go ♪ ♪ So now the world will know that we flow ♪ By the way, that was like such a 80s, 90s. Like because Aaron Hall, you don't do that. Yeah, Aaron Hall, exactly. He was there like he even did run. Like that was such a 90s type of riff. From that period to throw it. ♪ Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah ♪ ♪ Jam to the jam from me, yeah ♪ So that was a nod to Mr. Aaron Hall. And I was hearing in the dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb. It's more explicit when it's isolated. That is definitely 30s jazz. Like super full school Charleston era. For sure. And that was slightly inspired by Take Six. Again, we did terrible renditions of those guys. We were aliens to us. But we tried our best to try to emulate as much as we could. Take Six, by the way, they were kind of a gospel group. But they, I feel like they had a lot of crossover appeal, at least at Black Radio. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. A lot of their songs could have been. Totally. That mid-range, secular type of song. You're the biggest part of me. That's dumb. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, absolutely. In a song full of memorable moments, the vocal breakdown is perhaps one of the most famous moments in the song. Let's hear that. Maybe among the most famous 10 seconds on Planet Earth. (laughs) Known to all who walked this. Absolutely. This hair sphere. Here it is. I slated for the first time in human history. Yeah. Since it was done. I haven't heard it in a while. (singing) Everybody in the studio was singing along, by the way. Yeah, yeah. We're all going to be like, yes, I sang with strong. That's so Mr. Sandman. I was hearing a lot of Mr. Sandman that time. Yeah, I guess you could say that. Doom, doom. I mean, we wanted to do something slick. And how about this? If you play the original record. Okay. Right? Play the original song into that break. I'm going to show you something. Okay. All right. Here we go. A lot of people don't know this or even catch it. But I'm going to let you. One song exclusive. All right. Now listen it is. There's a part. One, two, three. Five, six, seven, seven, seven, seven, seven, seven. Did you hear that? Bet. Bet. Did you hear that? No. What? The original part. To that section. Uh-huh. Because that was the second part. We didn't originate. We didn't originally come up with that part. We sang "Can You Stand a Rain" to Biv, right? We first met him. Right. So. The new edition classic. So. The bat is something from another cut. It was a badoo. Badoo. Wow. So you originally sang that in this part. "Can You Stand a Rain?" That's what we were going to originally do. But. It didn't get muted. It did just that one moment. Just that one part. No one called it. What? And I always hear that in "Giggle," because it's kind of like, you know, that was. It's a little artifact. Yeah. A little Easter egg. But it was supposed to go badoo. Badoo. So when you hear the bat. It was just the bat. That's all you heard. So. I thought it was just so I said, "Bet." No. It was a bat. And the rest of it got cut off. And again, we were using two-inch tape back then. So. It's harder to get that out of it. The vocals weren't seen on a screen. Absolutely. So you probably. We'd probably been able to see that back now and go, "Oh, let me clip that." So no one noticed it till it was like on wax and in the shops? Yeah. Because again, it was. Wow. That's a demo. Right. That's right. You didn't expect for that. Motel Philly was that. That was the demo. More work was done to this. And then you were like, "No, no, back up to an earlier version." Yeah. And we just mastered the demo. That's amazing. And it's crazy. That was it. It was from another part or another idea that we scratched. When was the idea then? Was it the last thing you recorded for the song then? Pretty much. Like, because everything else was done. So we were like, "All right, what are we going to do on this part?" And so we just came up with a. Did you decide to replace it so that it wasn't maybe, you know, an interpolation? Interpolation. When I. I think we just wasn't feeling it. Okay. Like, it was just one of those things where we did it. And it was like, "Oh, we don't like it." I feel like it. So let's just find something better. Let's find something better. Yeah, so doom, doom, doom, da, da. Again, being take six fans, that was kind of like our interpretation of what we thought take six would do. You know what I'm saying, like, what would take six do? You know, that type of thing. So we kind of came up with our own version, or our own perspective, vocally on what we think would sound cool. So that was it. What's interesting to me is that almost every, you know, voice to men's song, almost every one of your classics, there's a moment where most of the music drops out, and it's just your voices. That's that part for Motown Philly, into the road, into the song, like the music famous that goes out, and you guys are just clapping and singing along. You know, like, I feel like that's what you give the fans. You kind of remind us every big song. Oh, by the way, we're singers. These instruments, we are going to remind you that we're singing the song. What people don't remember, also, again, the star is aligning, is when we came out, and when we first appeared on Video, Soul, and BET, with Donnie Simpson. Donnie Simpson? This was around the time of the Millie Vanille scandal. You wanted to prove that you were not Millie Vanille. Exactly. Yeah. So, it was perfect. Like, we're not these guys, because everybody felt bamboozled by that whole Millie Vanille thing, right? So, and again, as you remember, that took up a whole new cycle. Like, Millie Vanille aren't the real vocalists, to this, you know, this thing, whatever. So, when we came in the scene, we was like, oh, no, we sing. Yeah. So, it gave more emphasis on the fact that when we hit it, and I had friends that, around my same age, that watched that episode of us. And he said, that moment changed everything. It made black kids go, holy shit, who are these guys? You know what I'm saying? So, everybody started running out to their friends and say, hey, let's make a vocal group. Yeah, maybe we did. No, maybe we did. No, and that's what it did. But that moment in music history wouldn't have been as, I don't think, as profound as it was if Millie Vanille didn't do what they did. You were such a strong contrast. This is such a big story. Exactly. We were the literal control. It was like the person in the video wasn't the person singing along. We would be remiss if we didn't mention with your success you had. This is not to say these are biders, so to speak. But there was an explosion in an acapella group. And an acapella, like, shy came out. I mean, definitely, if I ever fall in love with a hit of radio and silk, you could argue, came along with you. So much sox, three boys and 90 degrees and all those guys. And so much so that when those songs, particularly the shy record, came out, everybody thought it was us. I definitely thought it was us. Because we were known as the acapella guy. So it really-- And you're labeled and think that acapella was going to work on radio, right? No. Like, when we sang, it's so hard to say goodbye to yesterday. Rest in peace, Gerald Busby, who is the president of Motown at the time. We had a really great relationship with him. So much so that we could actually talk to each other like Uncle and nephew. Like, it wasn't a record exec artist relationship. So we were in his office one day. And again, he was kind of-- he was very happy about the success of Motown Philly. And we told him, hey, man, we want to drop the acapella record second. He was like, it won't work. He was like, what do you mean it won't work? He was like, guys, there's no acapella songs on radio. Who's going to play a acapella song on the radio? And we as like, Gerald, trust us. And he trusted us. And he said, all right, cool. Let's just release it. We'll see what happens. And when Michael Middens said, he forgot the conversation happened. And then the one day he heard it on the radio or something like that. Oh, y'all got a hit. Yeah, it is one of our most successful songs, like Ever. And people relate that song, which is a cover of a GC Cameron record. It's so hard to say goodbye to yesterday, from the movie "Cooley High." From the movie? Absolutely. And "Cooley High" from which you get the title of your record. "Cooley High Harmony," another concept of Biv. And he just felt like it made sense. It was-- we're calling it "Cooley High Harmony," let's sing the song that was the most important song of that movie. And that was it. It's a big song. And I was saying, somewhere on a dusty VHS tape is footage of me and my singing group singing that to a bunch of teenagers at Six Flags over Georgia. We had that crowd going nuts. Right. OK, we're going to take a quick break. But when we get back, we're going to unpack the legacy of Boys to Men and their record-breaking slowjams. Cold mornings, holiday plans. This is when I need my wardrobe to just work. That's why I'm all about quints. They make it easy to look sharp, feel good, and find gifts that last. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, quints pieces are crafted from premium materials and built to hold up without the luxury markup. Quints makes the essentials every guy needs. Mongolian cashmere sweaters for $50, Italian wool coats that look and feel designer indenim and chinos that fit just right. Their outerwear lineup is no joke. And jackets, wool top coats, and leather styles that are built to last. Each piece is made from premium materials by trusted factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. 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It was right there. If I ever tried it again, it would not work because as we know sometimes you got to chase the demo. We're here with Sean Stockman. So after the success of Cooley High Harmony, you and the guys would be called to the studio to record a song for what I consider the second best Eddie Murphy film of all time. Boomerang. No shade. Coming to America. Let's defer. Oh, come on. Yes. I can't argue with that. But I'd be like, what a what a outstanding top two for any person. No trading places. No Beverly Hills Copies. No, those are my top five. Those are my top five. We don't have to argue. We don't have to argue again. All right. This was a song for the Boomerang soundtrack. And you're recording this with babyface, the Grammy award winning icon and this song ended up winning Grammys. It's the slow jam end of the road. And we were just talking about it. Let's watch a clip from the music video. ♪ To the end of the road ♪ ♪ Still I can't let it ♪ - It was a road that go on to beat the record for most weeks at number one. It beat Elvis Presley, a Houndog. You know, it was at number one for 13 weeks that the success of that single changed your perspective on the group's direction and what you thought was possible. - And yeah, we went from five million records or six million, which was pretty good. - Yeah. - To 12th. And that's pretty much how that happened. It was the song was so successful that they had to repackage Kool-Aid Harmony and put that song on that album. - And put it on there. - It reached Diamond Status because of that record. - I mean, I have to ask this question. Like at some point, like what do you think was the biggest concert you've ever played? Like you looked out there and you're like, "Holy shit, we are the Beatles. "They're four of us and look at all these people here." Like, you know, what show stands on your brain is like-- - I think that was a show we did in Trinidad. I think it was 75,000 people. It's kind of a strange thing to be on stage with a crowd that massive. Because after a while, to some degree, it's like they don't exist. Because it's so big. - You can't process it. - It's hard to just give the tension to everybody. - It's just a big mass. - It's too many people. So you're literally just kind of waving, hoping that people see you and you see them and you're, it's great. - It's hard to connect on an individual basis. - Well, yeah, but at the same time, 'cause I don't want to squander that. Because it is a blessing too, to look out into a sea of people. And to note that they're there for you. I think the second big is from what I remember, and I'm sure the guys could probably give more examples, but I think we did a Made in America, fest and filly. I think that was like a hundred thousand people. It was all throughout the Benjamin Franklin Parkway. People as far as your eyes can see. It's like, that's cool. I mean, it's cool. It's a cool thing, but after a while, it's less about the people and more about your connection with the music. Because that's what people, I guess, are trying to see. - I just want to be in the same space and know that, oh, that's him. - Yeah, I think those stadium-type shows provide a different experience than maybe a very up-close and personal. This one, I'm allowed to kind of, because I don't have to focus on the people so much. Like, I can just focus on my singing and my vocals and that type of thing, and maybe acknowledge the person that's way over there and blue shirt, right, right, because you caught eyes for a second. And those experiences are great, not just for the crowd, but for us too. - Is your experience of these songs and singing them for all these years? Does it change or evolve over time? Or does it instantly sort of transport you back because of the music as? - No, it's different every time. - It's different every time. - Because the crowds are different. The crowds are different. The people's mind state at a time are different. They're exuding a certain level of energy which permeates on to you and you throw it back. So you base things off of the energy of the crowd. We still give our 100% regardless, but the crowd is what kind of helps dictate what we're going to do for them. - So it doesn't ever feel stale? - No. - After all these years, it's different every night. - No, there are times where I'm on stage and I'll go, man, I show a whole broom service is still open. (laughing) - You know, while I'm singing-- - I find them know that you're still a human. - Yeah. - After all these years. - Yo, yeah, like while we're singing sometimes, you know, I'm like, man, I could go for a nice turkey burger. (laughing) - Right, right, right after the show, I'm going to find me a place to get a turkey burger and some fries and a beer. - That is so real. - And watch sports at it. - Yeah. - Can't wait. But right now-- - Gotta entertain these 75, 90, 90, 70, 40, 90, 90, 90. (laughing) - Well, I have to ask you a real quick question. You know, at some point you have like the string of hits, you know, I'm been in the one-sweet day. At some point creatively, did you guys feel like, as artists, did you feel like when you were starting working on a new album, okay, what's our epic ballad gonna be this time? Like did you ever feel that pressure? 'Cause I think it's just something all artists feel when something hits as huge, as into the road. And I'll make love to you. And all these, all these, like at some point, did you guys feel that? Or did you run away from like, okay, we're not gonna do a ballad this time. We're gonna, you know, we're just gonna do us. Like what, I'm sure you felt some pressure from a label to do that. But what was happening internally? - Ballads were just natural to us. We loved singing or writing ballads. So it was never a chore. - Okay. - Necessarily to sing slow songs. What we wanted to shy away from was trying to redo end of the road. - Yeah. - Like we knew that was never gonna happen again. We understood that. We understood that that was a moment in time that we were blessed to have. Let's see where else we can go. As artists, that's where we were going. Like let's not put ourselves against the wall and say, hey, we gotta do another end of the road. None of us said that. Like we said, all right, what else can we do? And we stretched our creative limbs and tried to find it. And a lot of what successful has a lot to do with timing and with, I guess you could say the focus of those who made your other records successful. - Wow. - Yeah, one hand definitely has to watch the other. Like you can write a great song just like you guys have a great podcast, right? - Oh, thank you. - But you do. - You think you can get that? - Yeah, yeah. - Yes, you have a great podcast, thank you. But without the backing of the machine, it doesn't matter. Like no one-- - The machine being the label. - The machine being the label. - Make sure it gets heard. - Yeah. - The great song. - Yeah. And there are a lot of songs that I felt could have been on that level, but the labels just felt like they wanted to go another direction. - With the proper promotion, that song could have gone further. - I think so, in certain, you know, specific songs that I'm thinking of. - But I think what's a song that you think we should go back and listen to again? - There's a song called "Doing Just Fine." ♪ I'm doing just fine ♪ ♪ Getting along there ♪ - Yeah, I wrote that I thought was one of the best songs I ever wrote, and it did well. - Yes. - But-- - That's another song. - As far as it doing end of the road well, it missed by a mile. And I think a lot of it had to do with a lot of things. A lot of things that we were transitioning into as men, as now veterans, kind of in the business, understanding things and our relationship with the label at the time and all that other stuff. It has a lot to do with the success of a song. - But you think that song's success may be suffered from a lack of literally the money to promote it, the attention. - There were things to radio, whatever. - Yes, they were emphasizing on different things. And it was less about us and more about other people. - Understood. Sean, what do you think the legacy of "Boys to Man" and "Motown Philly" is? - I think it will be considered one of the many storytelling songs ever written that it capsilizes an era of music. It is a signature '90s record. That's how '90s records sounded. And if you want to refer to what a '90s record sounds like, you can always go to "Motown Philly." Like, I think its legacy is based off of what we did after it. That's what "Motown Philly" tends to be the keystone of who "Boys to Man" became after that story was told. - Do you think that that song that "Motown Philly" helped introduce "Boys to Man" to listeners who may not have been ready for a straight up vocal group? - 100%. - So much so that, and I've told this story before, there were radio stations that did not get it, didn't like it, hated it, thought we were corny, thought our representation was corny as whack. You know, who these niggas and these bow ties. Like, no, I mean, we've heard this stuff. You know, like, you know, they're cheesy, they're this, they're that, like, you know, reporters or, you know, writers of magazines, like Nelson George, who, you know, literally dissed us. - Nelson came to you. - He slammed you. - Nelson George came to play some, I did not know this. - Oh yeah, like, there were times when he just called us straight corn balls and thought we were. - Nelson said corn balls, like, I love Nelson today, Yeah, I mean, that's a little, I mean, that's a little careful. - That'll call it a black one, or whatever. - But, you know, and it was because of the people just loving it, because they loved it, it forced the hand of a lot of radio stations, because they wanted to get in on that ad revenue. So they had to play the record, and to the point where it became number one in those respective stations. And, you know, it happens. Like, some people make the wrong decision. And some people have their opinions on things that doesn't matter at the end of the day. - I wanted to mention some of your contemporaries, like Portrait and Condition. - My guys, shout out to Portraits. Here we go again, it's a fantastic song. - It's awesome. - It's a great song, isn't it? - Awesome. Michelangelo, shout out to Michelangelo. Like, I mean, like, those guys, in this, this is a beautiful thing about it too. It was great that, that era too, because we were all friends, all of us. Portrait, Minkondition, Intro. - Tevin? - Tevin and the crew. - Basically, everybody you see in the "You Will Know" video, black man United, that was pretty much a real thing. We all got along, we were all friends, we all respected each other, 'cause it was some singers in that motherfucking room. Like, it was some singers in that room, including DeAngelo, who wrote that record. - That's right. - That's the first time I met DeAngelo, is 'cause he wrote "You Will Know" along with Brian McKnight. So, you know, it was honestly, man. Like, the '90s was so pivotal. - So rich. - And so rich in music and sound, and just good-ass motherfucking singer. - You're insane. - You know what I'm saying? Like, it was so incredible. And again, I cannot say the same about now. Like, you had a room of 60 men that could all throw all of them in some way, shape, or form. Do that here in 2025. I challenge y'all. Like, I'm talking about popular sync. Like, you might get 12 in a room. And that's it. And this is no slight. If anything, it is a call to action. - There you go. - There you go to all of you artists out there that don't understand what I'm talking about. Like, just reference that room alone. When you had Gerald Levert, and you had, you know, Arkelli, and you had a Tevin Campbell, and you had Elder Barge, and you had, like, all of these men who were throwers, bro. Throwers. You can't fill a room in 2025, with a bunch of male throwers. You can't do it. Like, you can't do it. And that's really, that's the problem with today's music. You want to know what the problem is. Fill up a room with 60 hitmakers, male or in a group in 2025. You can't do it. And that is the problem. - You got to do this in ship, you're saying? - Yes. - They're like actual musicians. - The musicianship, songwriting, hit records, performance, the whole nine yards. Tell me, tell me I'm wrong. Like, honestly, tell me, and for you guys as watching, tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I'm wrong. Challenge this. You name 60 artists, groups or whatever, in 2025, male, that can fill up a room and throw, that got hit records on the radio. You can't do it, 'cause they don't exist. - Find this in the comments, prove this man wrong. - Sean, you boys, the men, new addition, Tony Braxton, about to hit the road, huge show. What is next on the horizon for you guys as a group after this tour? - We're still working on the biopic, that'll come out along with a documentary amongst, of things, I mean, I can't really say right now, but really exciting stuff. - Might be some new music? - Maybe, I said it, not you, technically speaking. - You said it, I didn't, but we'll see. And also, again, I'm excited about my own podcast, that I was called on that note. - Yes, great podcast. - And thank you. Just a lot of great guests that are coming up, I had a Reginald Huddling on recently, that's gonna air later and everything, so we talked about the Boomerang soundtrack and all the other stuff, and that was amazing. And just a lot of great things in the works that I'm very excited about and I'm grateful for. And I just wanted to say thank you to everyone, on behalf of my group, on behalf of myself. Life is still very good because of you guys. And we really truly appreciate y'all, and we can't wait to see on the road. And yeah, it's gonna be a fun couple of years, next couple of years. - Thank you for sharing your artistry and your gift for all these years. - That was fun, like I enjoyed hearing those vocals, like Acapella, that was weird. Just to hear the 18 year old Sean. - It's like a time machine. - Yeah, Sean, thanks for coming on the show. - I appreciate y'all, thank you. - All right, one song nation is time for one genre, our friends at Discox challenged us to do a deep dive into a sub-genre and share a few records that we think are essential listening. - That's right, Tiola, just a reminder, we at One Song use genre as a way to talk about music with shared sensibilities, but not as a way to rigidly define the music. - Not fans of rigid. - No, not like for us. - We like open minded. - Exactly. - Speaking of which today, we're talking about psychedelic hip-hop. And that's not a term I would often use or that you're gonna hear people use often. It's definitely more of an academic classification, I think it's safe to say. But to me, this sub-genre represents more of the abstract and artsy side of a genre that is usually defined by its realism. - I actually literally never heard the expression until you mentioned it to me. - And I was kept seeing it used online and articles and I was just like, you know what? I know exactly what they're talking about. - But it makes exactly me too, it makes sense when you hear it. - It's like a conversation started more as genre go. - So, Tiola, what is your pick for the psychedelic hip-hop? - Oh, man, let me just say, I've been wanting to talk about this group. This is PM Don, the Bliss album. That's not there, that's not there. The whole title is the Bliss album, vibrations of love and anger and the ponderance of life and existence. So yeah. - That is some deep stuff. It's a little mouthful. But I just want to start off by saying, I don't think that we, and I'm using we, I was part of the hip-hop community when PM Don was out. I don't think that we did right by them. We kind of ran him out of town. This group came out of New Jersey and for a long time, they could not get signed in America because they always kind of wanted to do the PM Don thing. They were like, hey, this is who we are. This is how we want to rap. And we also want to sing on our records. And at the time, none of these things were very typical in hip-hop. They had to do the Jimmy Hendrix thing where they went overseas to get signed. - Oh, they got famous. - Yes. - They got signed overseas and they happened to sign with a manager who had worked with Spandale Ballet on their hit song, True. - That explains the connection. I never knew that's right. - And so their big hit, Sample True and it was the international hit known as set of drift on memory bliss. I just, I love that song at the time. And this is a huge international hit. But they immediately started to bump up against the mainstream underground hip-hop community for the lack of a better term. In an article in Details Magazine, Prince B sort of said, Harris one claims to be a teacher but a teacher of what. Harris one heard that, did not like that. And then famously charged the stage in New York one time when PM Don was performing, pushed them off the stage and kicked in to the bridge is over. Well, but it's a seminal hip-hop moment. - Yeah, right. - But I think if you take a step back from even that quote and just look at PM Don's body of work, there's some amazing songs out there. Like there's a song called Paper Doll. You know, it's got some of the same qualities that I feel like Pitch Hot Boys, Weston Girls had. - It's Cynthia. - Yeah. - Well it's synthesizers. - It's synthesizers. - It's nice. - But it's also like, you know, there's like some break beats that sort of like serve as the drums. - A little bit, but I was gonna say like, they actually sort of more of it. It doesn't have a lot of syncopated, funky beats and hard drums. It's sort of softened. It's more kind of house music, a little bit. - Oh, there's definitely sort of like a balleric house sound in here that you're gonna find on like early polo and fold production. Like the Happy Monday's Pill Stools and Beliex, which I always say is one of my favorite, sort of matchester, you know, creations of all time. - Yeah. - Yeah, there's something very sort of British about their approach to their music, but these are like two black guys from New Jersey who definitely saw themselves as a kind of hip hop. And they didn't really ever get the chance to shine. I went on Discoz 'cause I was like, I think they have some more songs that I really love. Again, I found this one and purchased this one because it was a special edition orange vinyl, which I cannot wait to, you know, play 'cause I'm still a sucker for like some kind of vinyl. - It's gonna sound better 'cause it's orange. - It's gonna sound great. Looking through patient eyes is on here. That's a great song. It also has probably my favorite song of theirs, outside of paper doll, which is, I die without you. This was a song that was on the Boomerang soundtrack. It's a slow jam. There's no rapping to be found on it, but anybody who knows that soundtrack or that scene or that song, I die without you, it's just a beautiful R&B song. It's an R&B song that gets nametanked by a lot of R&B producers from that period. It's just a beautiful song. So I think the timing has a lot to do with everything. And I feel like PM Don is one of those groups that if they came out today, they'd be unquestionably, you know, they would be mentioned in the same breath stylistically as like a Tyler or a Donald Glaude. lover, like somebody who gets to be hip hop, but like very different kind of hip hop. But that wasn't so much a thing back then. So they kind of suffered from when they came out and Prince B unfortunately died. So you're not going to get much more PM dawn material. But between I die without you, paper doll, and of course, they're big hit, set a drift on memory bliss, go out, give them another listen. I think you'll be shocked at how well some of their material is aged. And with that, I'm going to pass the Discox lip matte to my brother lecturing, lecturing, what's your selection for this job? My Discox subgenre selection of the week is in the same vein, the psychedelic hip hop vein, De lasso's seminal, who's that director three feet, pie and rising. Yes, classic. I actually own the original on vinyl. There you go. I need to go look up on Discox. How valuable this is. But I won't do it in the room because I'm worried that I will leave you with that. Someone in this room can take it, but I did, by contrast, get their third record, Balloon Balloon A. How do you pronounce this? Balloon Mind State. They just build a weird, but can I just say? Balloon Mind State. Balloon Mind State. This might be my favorite record by them. I know this album inside, back, front, forward, all that stuff. It's just like, it's a fantastic, fantastic record. It has some of my absolute favorite songs by them. I was excited to finally get it on vinyl. And when I bought it on vinyl, I got a new copy, which means that I didn't get the entirety of the original version. Because in order for it to exist in the world, they had to do a lot of complicated sample and interpolation clearance. And they didn't get every single intro or skit. And in fact, a song or two was even dropped from this. Do you know which ones were dropped? Listen, I had a lot of fun going on to Discox because of all the credits, too. There's all kinds of differences. A song may or may not have the exact same sound, and you're like, wait a second, that wasn't in the original. Is that section of it, that one sample out of many was interpolated, when I buy these things on iTunes and I listen to them, I'm like, this sounds different. So you can see, for example, and focus contains excerpts from, nothing is the same, contains excerpts from. There's all these kind of credits, very specific credits, which are, you know, that's a fun, you know, rabbit hole. If you're a fan of DLS soul, buy the new version or just listen to it on Spotify and do a one-to-one comparison. Can I say the vinyl? Take it real quick. I will pass the vinyl to you. Oh my gosh. This is a much shorter album. Yeah. Yeah, there are a couple on here. Long Island, wild in with the Japanese rappers. Yeah. I've, I've missed in that. I've missed in Dave has a problem. Seriously. This is just how it works in the world. Yeah, we just got to go out and find that original pressing because there's so many songs on here. I mean, I patch. I be blowing. I am. I be in the woods. Break a dawn. Oh my gosh. I'm kind of, is it okay if I hold on to this for a second? Sure. Touch it. It's right now. Yeah. I was worried about this one getting stolen. I don't know what makes these psychedelic to you, but to me, I think some of the eclectic sampling, especially if you'd high on rising, the fact that we are going from such a wide range of sources from Johnny Cash to TV shows and game show kind of like the eclectic mix of sounds and ideas is especially in 1989 when this record comes out. Also just the use of daisies and flowers and all that stuff. And the funny thing about daylight, they talk about this now because they have a new album outshadowed out to daylight and positive news. Yeah. I mean, like, if you look at that, it's kind of got like the paisleys and the daisies. They said that, look, we were guys who wanted to do hip hop on our own terms and make this album. But then we sort of got labeled as like the hippies of hip hop, which we didn't like. So we made sure that all future albums were a little bit more hip hop, a little bit more street because they saw how differently because they didn't quite go so far down the psychedelic road, how differently a tribe called Quess was treated by guys on the streets. And so they said that they sort of wanted to get away from getting sort of pigeonholed as like the hippies of the movement. So it's a short-lived phenomenon or were there artists that come after this early 90s era that might be still considered? Yes. Psychedelic. I think it's easy to make the case. Dr. Octagon, what about it? Dr. Octagon. I'd make the case of Kid Cuddy with all of his sort of like spacey stuff in like 2007, 2008, is his own form of a modernization of being a psychedelic rapper. Again, it's not that anybody wants to be labeled or pigeonholed rigidly as a psychedelic rapper, but I think anytime you sort of step out of the sort of, you know, you know, two-pack or biggie, like I'm describing what's going on in the streets. And you're like, I want to talk about my place as a living being on a small rock in an infinite universe. Well, they're always going to be a little bit of pushback to that, right? Yeah. Because it's hard to be the nerd when everybody else is kind of posturing. And also, after a certain point, all of the genres and subgenres become, they kind of become especially in this moment, more choices you can make, it's kind of song to song. You can kind of piece together on my record, I want to have a song that's a funk song into a song, that's a psychedelic hip-hop song, and maybe my visuals will sort of allude to something completely different. And for example, in the turtles, they were sampling groups from, you know, the 60s. The psychedelic 60s. So I think that there was a, it's such a three-feet absolute classic animal. Impeccable record. So those are our one genre picks. Check out our list on discoggs.com. And we know there are so many more psychedelic hip-hop gems out there. Please let us know some of your favorites in the comments. Hit us up. Please do. As always, you can find us on Instagram and TikTok. You can find me on Instagram @DioloDiA, LLO, and on TikTok @DioloRoop. And you can find me on Instagram @LUXXURI and on TikTok @LuxuryXX. And you can follow our podcast on Instagram and TikTok @At1SongPodcast for exclusive content. You can also watch full episodes of one song on YouTube and Spotify. Just search for one song podcast. We'd love it if you'd like and subscribe. Also be sure to check out the OneSong Spotify playlist for all the songs we discussed in our episodes. You can find the link in our episode description. That's right. And if you made it this far, you're a fishing part of the OneSong Nation. Show us some love. Give us five stars. Leave a review. And send this episode to a fellow music nerd. It really helps keep the show going. All right. Luxury, help me in this thing. I'm producer DJ, songwriter, musicologist, and KCW DJ every Friday night from 10 to midnight. Luxury. And I'm at the writer director of sometimes DJ DioloRiddle. And this is OneSong. We will see you next time. This episode was produced by Melissa Duanians, our video editor is Casey Simonson. Our associate producer is Jeremy Bimbo, mixing by Michael Hardman. Engineering by Eric Hicks, production supervision by Rezok Wakin, additional production support from ZTaylor. This show is executive produced by Kevin Hart, Mike Stein, Brian Smiley, Eric Eddings, Eric Wilde, and Leslie Guam.