Boundaries and Sex with Shane Birkel

[Music] Hello folks, welcome to Sex Talk with Erica Miley. Erica Miley here. I have a wonderful guest with me. I have Shane Berkall. I am just super stoked that you're here. Just period. I'm gonna nerd out a little bit because I love your podcast. Shane hosts the podcast, The Couple's Therapist Couch, and he's based out of New Hampshire. Welcome Shane. Thank you Erica. I'm so excited to be here. I'm kind of stoked, man. We're gonna try not to talk too much shop because people with COVID are gonna roll their eyes at us. Yeah, thank you so much for saying those nice things about the podcast. You all get on anywhere you get your podcast and download Shane's podcast. You will learn all the things. All the things. So Shane, we're gonna talk about boundaries today. So like, I kind of like to start from like that, bottom basement thing for our folks, our listeners out there. What is one of the first things you think as a couple or people in a relationship should understand about boundaries? Yeah, I love talking about boundaries. And I think when we start the conversation, you know, it's really easy to think about physical boundaries, for example. You know, I can't just go up to somebody and punch them or touch their butt or, you know, there's been a lot of talk in politics right now about like even just leaning over and touching them on the shoulder or something. Like we have to be really careful. So I think most people get it when it comes to physical boundaries. You have to respect other people's physical boundaries. We start talking about psychological boundaries and emotional boundaries and sexual boundaries. It gets a lot more confusing and people don't have the education or having grown up with the modeling about what's appropriate and what's okay. Even with our part, especially with our partners and our family members, probably. Yes, I definitely hear people say, well, now not to call out all men. That's, this is not gonna be like, oh, men or bad podcasts. That's gonna be, but like I have heard many men say to me, like I'm afraid now. I don't know what to do. I mean, here's the reality. Like men have a learning curve. I need to get together. But I think what you're saying is really, really important. Like, okay, where do we begin? Yeah. And I definitely talk a lot about the male female dynamics and differences and patriarchy and male privilege. Maybe we'll get to that. Maybe we won't. Not to say that men are the problem, but it's to understand that there are really ingrained dynamics that go back tens of thousands of years that we exist within our culture today. But anyway, so when I'm in a relationship, I often have couples who I work with who are sort of like, okay, I have the assumption that hugs are good for relationships. Obviously, hugs must be good for relationships. So I come home from work and my partner is cooking dinner and I go up behind her and try to give her a hug. And she kind of like doesn't want, isn't interested and kind of like, you know, pushes me away. And all of a sudden, I feel rejected and hurt. And my brain is sort of melting down like hugs are good for relationships. And I didn't want to hug me. I guess there's something wrong. Instead of having the perspective that, you know, it just wasn't good timing. She's cooking dinner. And so me developing my healthy boundaries emotionally is to understand that I don't need anything from her. I don't need her to respond in a certain way for me to feel okay about myself. I might have a feeling come up when she doesn't give me a hug in that moment because it's not good for her. But that feeling is is 90% based on stuff that I've been through in my life, you know, with my parents growing up, whatever stuff like that that I need to recognize and work with and own for myself. That way, you know, when it's 20 minutes later and I'm so I've sort of thought about that and breathe, taking a walk, use some coping strategies, whatever I need to do for myself. I can come back to my wife and say, hey, I know this is my stuff. I know this is because of whatever I grew up with. But I felt really kind of hurt when you didn't give me a hug. But I'm trying to be understanding that, you know, you're just cooking dinner obviously, but I just wanted to let you know. And that sounds a lot different than if I'm coming at her with this entitled point of view that why don't you why don't you ever give me hugs. You know, make her feel like you're a terrible partner. You never do anything for me, which is blame, which is assuming that there's truth. You know, and so I talk a lot about getting away from the blame, focusing on my experience, focusing on the first person, and also making requests. It's not about you should do this or the right thing to do is this. It's about this is what works well for me. And each partner comes from a very different background, no matter who you are, all families are very different. And so we have to have that level of communication with each other and not make assumptions about reality, which we all do. Yes. I think that like the I am saying to my folks a lot that your brain is not the grand true seller. Right. Yes. I think what you're talking about like that, understanding that there is context for what we're doing and what we're saying and everything that your whatever is in your experience isn't necessarily what's happening in your partner's experience. And I think what you're saying about like learning how to make requests and helping someone not immediately jump to the defense because we know we know that kills that kills the interaction. If you're on the defense, you're like, not I'm out. Right. Totally. Let me flip this around too to give you an example because let's say that I guess today I'm really into coming home examples of coming home. Okay, but let's say that I'm cooking dinner and my wife comes home from work and she walks in and she says, you're such an asshole. I can't believe you didn't take the trash out this morning. What is wrong with you? Blah blah blah blah. That I can use my protective boundary in that moment. I don't have to take in what she's dishing out that my best move in that moment is to remind myself this is 90% based on something that she went through. Growing up in her family, this isn't really about me or what she went through at work today. Some stressful day. And I can respond with something because what she really wants is to feel heard and seen and understood. And if I can stay present, take a deep breath and say, wow, you're really overwhelmed. Why don't you go sit down in the living room? I'll bring you a drink. I'm going to go take that trash out right away and then I'll, you know, make sure the kids are okay. Why don't you just take some time for yourself? I completely transform what the rest of the night looks like for us as opposed to the defensiveness that you're talking about. You know, get if I get defensive and fight back and that that's coming from me having poor boundaries. If I take in what she's saying and I say, well, she's my wife. I maybe I am a bad person because I didn't take out the trash. Then I need to defend myself because I need to prove that I'm not a bad person. I need to prove to her. Look, look, what are you talking about? Don't you know how busy I've been today? Don't you understand that I've had so much going on? You know, whatever, whatever, whatever. So it's really easy for couples to slide into that communication. And you can feel the emotions coming into it. You know, you get, you start getting, I call it like second consciousness or that fight or flight. Kind of emotional response where we're just going back and forth and we're not there's nothing helpful that's going to happen from this conversation anymore. Right. The goal is no longer the relationship. The goal is I'm going to win. Exactly. I'm going to win this interaction. I'm going to I'm we are fighting to win. And the reality is when we when we fight to win, there's someone has to lose. And we all don't like to lose. That's right. Either one of us loses. That means we both lose. The winner can't feel that good either. No, because then you're like, Oh, well, shit, I won. Now what? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Now now we're not going to have sex because I want to all along. Right. Right. Yeah. Quick break from the action folks. Pat action. I just want to tell you about my Patreon every week. I bring you guests and seriously lots of sex and rodery. Help me keep doing that by becoming a supporter. What are you going to return? Cool perks for real. I am going to be doing shout outs, stickers, a bunch of stuff. So check it out at air come I only dot com forward slash Patreon. That's E R I K A M I L E Y dot com forward slash Patreon. I hope to see you and see more of you by becoming a Patreon. Thanks guys. I think it might be good for us to talk about these boundaries in particular about how does someone begin to start talking about sexual boundaries? Within a couple. I mean, I work with folks all the time and I know you do too about how to even begin these conversations. How to start this negotiation because let's be real relationships have a lot of negotiation in them. So. How would the folks out there begin the conversation about boundaries around sex? It's such a great question and I think people have so much working against them. I just think people should have so much compassion for themselves and for trying to work through these conversations because as a society, on a societal level, on a global level perhaps, you know, you're not supposed to talk about sex. It's like one of the hardest things to bring up. It's one of the hardest things to talk about and even with our own partners behind closed doors, we have the hardest time talking about what we want, talking about listening to what are partner ones, whatever conversation anything about sex. The other thing that happens, if I've been with my partner for 10 years and I'm not happy with our sex life, what happens for most people, if I start trying to talk about sex, let's say that I don't know if you've talked about like the high desire partner and the low desire partner oftentimes this dynamic plays out where there's one partner who wants sex more often and one partner who doesn't want sex as often. And so it creates this sort of like ongoing dynamic. It could look a very different from couple to couple. But what happens is the high desire partner might try to bring it up, but unfortunately it's usually because they're trying to have sex at that moment. They're trying to initiate or their partner thinks that they're trying to have sex and so it just gets derailed and it goes downhill or that they're just trying to cuddle on the couch. Maybe the high desire partner is trying to cuddle with their partner and their partner feels like anything like that is going to lead to sex. So I have to push away. So all this you have a lot of less physical intimacy, even non-sexual physical intimacy because all this perception that there's a pressure that it has to lead to sex. Yes, it's a small defensiveness that happens even in those small, small ways. Like I have to be on guard. This person wants to have sex all the time. So every physical or intimate interaction is going to equal sex when in reality that's not necessarily the case. Yeah, absolutely. And so I think it's really important for couples. For the person who wants to bring up talking about sex, one thing you could, it's really clear, really simple. Let's say Wednesday night, we get the kids to bed, we finally get the dishes clean and we're sitting down. We have our 27 minutes that we get to enjoy together at the end of the day. And what I might say, how I might start that conversation is honey, I 100% do not want to have sex with you tonight. That is not going to happen. But I really want to talk to you about our sex life. And so, you know, in the back of my mind, I might really want to do one and have sex, but I'm setting it up that way so that I have a more open receptive partner to connect with and have a conversation with. To begin that conversation. So that's how we start. Yeah, that reduction of pressure from the gate that this interaction is not going to end with you having to tell me now. Exactly. And then there has to be just tons of understanding and compassion for each person's side. There's nothing wrong, most likely. I mean, you know, if there if there is obviously you can go to a therapist, go to a doctor, you can rule things out. But most of the time, there's nothing wrong. If someone doesn't want to have sex or if someone wants to have sex a lot, I mean, we just have different ideas of what we want or different desire levels of desire. Another thing I like to talk about is if I'm the high desire partner and I try to initiate sex. And my partner says, no, I'm not in the mood right now. And then I get all moody and grumpy and, you know, for the next two hours, it feels like I'm punishing. Yeah, exactly. It feels like punishing. Yeah. I tell people, if I could prescribe, if I could give you a prescription for how to make how to be the least desirable, that is what I would tell you to do that your partner would not want to have sex with you ever again. That's exactly what you should do. Yeah, that's the first turn on for me, man. Yeah. And I think that you're speaking to something that's really important that I think many couples in lots of configurations miss is that once you are now in a parent role, there's nobody's lovers. Nobody's lovers when you're a parent and when you're having to tell somebody no or when you're having to deal with a pouty kid, that's not sexy. Totally. Just that. Totally. And there is a male female dynamic to this. I don't know if people, you know, this isn't universally true. But the in general, it's often the man who is the person who's trying to initiate sex and who gets grumpy. And part of the reason for that is the way that we're socialized in our society is that all emotions men are not supposed to connect with their emotions. All emotions are filtered through anger or lust. Those are the only two acceptable emotions for men. So oftentimes you find that the only way I feel connected is by having sex with my partner. The only way I feel emotional closeness is by having sex. That's something to explore, something we can be curious about. It opens up the conversation. So what I often encourage people when you're having this conversation is to say, first of all, let's make a plan. If I try to initiate sex and you say that you don't want to, and I have a lot of emotions come up, it's the same thing I was talking about before. I have to own my own emotional experience. This has a lot more to do with my parents, not being there for me when I was a kid, feeling rejected, feeling abandoned, feeling whatever. That's my emotional experience. I'm not going to wait for my partner to do something in order for me to feel better. I'm going to learn strategies, like I said, maybe have a plan of certain strategies that I can do for myself when that happens. Is it helpful for me to go take a walk? Is it helpful for me to listen to music? Whatever you can do whatever you want, but that you are not putting that on your partner. So they feel pressured. Covering that ground, I think it's really important, like that initiation, taking the pressure off the table, like you said, that beginning part of the conversation, taking that pressure off, and then that second part is having a plan. Yeah. So then another part of the plan could be, let's say I initiate sex, my partner's new response, instead of saying, oh, God, he's always asking for sex. No, I don't want to. Instead of that, this has been really helpful for a lot of couples that I work with. That partner can respond maybe with a big smooch on the lips and squeeze the person's butt and say, honey, I think you are so hot. I just love being your partner and I'm really not in the mood for sex right now. Maybe we can talk about this tomorrow. So there is that some connection. A lot of times I try to get couples. So if you think that you want sex, why do you want sex? And they'll say, well, that's obvious. Of course I want sex. Well, no, no, no, why do you want sex? You can take care of that yourself. You can master rate. I mean, physiologically, well, that might be a whole different conversation for certain couples. That's another thing that needs to be talked about though and negotiated and understood between the two people, what that means to them. So why do you want that from your partner? And trying to get them to, you know, I want to feel desired. I want to feel connected. I want to feel like they appreciate me. I want to feel like I can give something to them. Those are all things that there are a lot of other ways besides sex that we can actually address those. And what I was talking about with the example that your partner turns and gives you a big kiss and squeezes your butt and tells you you're hot, that is another way of showing desire that doesn't have to include sex in that moment. Absolutely. I think this is so important. Like breaking down this step-by-step, this conversation for our people in relationship out there is so important. So taking out the pressure, having a plan, understanding that there's feelings behind wanting to have sex and like being able, I mean, if we could give people a roadmap, we would. But every person is a little different. That's right. And what their wants and needs are. So therapy for everybody, you know, Shane and I both. Therapy for everyone. So if you really, really struggle to even begin this conversation or take the pressure off the table, find someone in your area or like an online therapist like myself or go into Shane's office if you're a New Hampshire and and and talk this out. Because this is not easy, like you said, culturally we have so many rules, barriers and a lot of context that we're all not talking about. So being able to have these initial conversations about boundaries is so important. So if you had something a piece of something for a couple to walk away with today, they they listen to this episode and they go, you know what? I know at least where to begin. What would you say to them? Oftentimes what happens is that this is something that that goes on for 10 years that we're stuck in this dynamic or 20 or 30 years that we're stuck in this dynamic. And so if I could give you one takeaway, it would be it is absolutely it will be helpful to open up about these things. It will be difficult. It will be raw. It will be leave you feeling vulnerable. But you should absolutely open up to your partner and talk about these things and have conversations that you haven't had before. And actually, let me give I can give people a resource or a tool. You can you can Google it. You can find it on Google. There's something called the feedback wheel. It's for feedback wheel. There's four steps and it helps you communicate from a place that is owning your own chick. What I experienced, what I made up in my head about it, what I felt in my request. Those are, you know, those are the four steps right there that I'm communicating from the first person. This is my experience and this is what I'm asking for you as my partner. I'm not assuming I'm right. I'm not assuming that my ship makes sense. But I want to express it to you because I want you to know me better and I want you to understand me better. And I want to hear what your perspective is to. So opening up about those conversations is the tidbit that I would leave listeners with today. Yes. Open up. Talk about it. Get it together. Come on. So how do people find you in the world, Shane? You can find my practice website, which is ccoastspark.com. And I also work with some people online. I work mostly in my office here in New Hampshire, but I also work with some people online. So you can find my practice there, but you can also find I do the podcast and some training with couples therapists. And that website is couples therapist couch.com. So you can find out more about that stuff there. And I think, you know, I think a lot of couples, even if you're not a therapist, you might find some of the episodes on the podcast helpful because we talk about things that are relevant to everyone. I absolutely agree. Yes. When we're together as therapists, we talk shop, but that shop talk can be helpful to you all. I promise. So jump on. I'm a big fan of his podcast. So please jump on and listen to it and jump on to his practice website. I thank you, Shane. I appreciate you being here with me today. And thank you, folks, for sticking with us through the end of the episode. Everything will be in the show notes so that you can find Shane easily. And all of you have a wonderful week. All right. Thank you so much, Erica. Thank you. Thanks for listening, folks. Please rate and review on iTunes. It helps this podcast get found. If you leave a five star review, let me know about it on any social media. And I'll shout you out on the podcast. You can find my website at aircamilie.com. You can find me on Facebook, the Graham and Twitter. See you all next time.