BOTIVO’s 12 Unusually Lavish Brand Building Principles That Could Change Your Life

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Click the link in the show notes to put your consultancy session and thank you later. Bonjourno, bonjourno. You are in front absolute treat. Bativo are hands-down, categorically, unacquokely. One of my favourite brands at the minute. The liquid is certy-banger. It is so good. I remember the first time I tried it. It's a complex, dark, intense, light, sour, sweet, flavor voyage of just deliciousness. What Sam has created is just insane, so, so good. And Emma, his partner in crime, is a brand sensei. She is what they've created. The level of depth these guys have gone into has like something I've never heard before. Huge levels of depth. There's tons in this episode that I think you're going to absolutely love and can apply to your brand. Emma has this gorgeous framework for creating brands that really stand out. She goes through these forked sort of tensions and playing to tensions as brands. I blew my mind. You can apply it immediately. We go deep into why Bativo have created all these characters on the pack, on their packaging. And it's this huge thing that I think nobody really thinks about. It's psychographic versus demographic. And brands that really focus on psychographic versus demographic can really open up their market. We talk about sort of first, second, third order consequences of brand touch points. What do you lead with? We go deep into how the brand, the genesis of the brand, which started at lavish parties, like Calvin Harris, Prince Harry and Meghan's wedding. We go, we just go everywhere. All sorts of real chocolate box conversation. We end up talking about childhood in Japan, in Norway. It was just delicious conversation. So buckle up, strap in, enjoy it. If you do enjoy it, please leave us a review. Five stars, Paul Favoreau. Please do share it with a mate on WhatsApp. Every little helps, as they say. Yeah, thank you so much. Love you a long time. Sam Imert, thank you so much for doing this. Massive fan of what you're building at Bativo, as I said, I was out there, lure a restaurant the other week. Cost me a fucking fortune. The only kind of seeing grace from that was the drink Bativo. And it's just amazing when you kind of have it in that restaurant setting, as we were saying earlier, in those credential, influential places where they pour it perfectly with the orange. It's just, it is so delicious. And yeah, then I obviously just love love the brand. I love the colour, which is, yeah, I think we'll probably start with the colour. It's just such a unique colour, as we were saying. It's not a, in your face, yellow, yellow. It's got like richness and depth and texture to it. And also just love all the activations you're doing. I think the yellow piano is a slice of genius. I think it's very purple cow-esque. And yeah, so thanks, thanks for doing this. Thanks for having us. What I want to start with is the colour. And I think the juxtaposition of art is an all hedonism, is that kind of wet micuriosity straight off the bat. Lures people in. Yeah, yeah, the word hedonism is just such a great word. And I think it's a good part of life. It makes life interesting. But why that colour, why does that colour, and that depth of colour represent hedonism in Bativo? Yeah, why did you go with that colour? Because you could have gone with a whole myriad of different colours. There was a few historical reasons and then also when we were developing the brand. So I don't know how much you know about where the brand started. So where the brand started and where it is now. So I was actually a bottle that existed before I came on as sound business partner and rebranded it. And the yellow wax was actually all part of the original bottle. And then we sort of redid the whole brand and then sort of realised that spoke to those consumers, realised that the yellow was like what people remembered. It stood out on the shelf in trade. It was, you know, what people really attached themselves to and we decided to kind of take that even further and make the label yellow and then make the world yellow and then trademark the yellow hour as our consumption of moment. And then sort of took it to the next level because with the kind of marketing hat on, the key thing for me is stickability. And I think like colour is such an interesting shortcut to stickability and being memorable as a brand. So we wanted to just dominate that every single touch point and for a brand point of view. Yeah, I mean, people were, people were often revenue yellow. They wouldn't actually remember the actual name, you know, like that colour would like the yellow wax and it was just, as you say, so sticky and seem like every little bit. I mean, I did the, like a ridger reason why I used it was because our, hey, there was another products around that had the yellow but also like the honey that we used to begin with was this amazing yellow colour and I mean, it was a nightmare. It was sort of, it came set and it had to like pick up a sort of, it came like a 50 kilo bucket. It was solid. It was solid set honey and I'd have to sort of sit there just sweating, scraping honey out the barrel and sort of get it into the into our tanks. And that yellow hour thing is interesting because I think, I think that's another thing I picked up like owning that specific occasion. What is that yellow hour like in terms of, and how does that linked to hedonism? Do you ever mean that kind of that moment you're trying to occupy? So I think a brand, a lot of people say to me, like brands, it backs the stickability place and piece and I think the yet only a colour is, is your shortcut to stickability. Fucking love that. And I think the obvious example of this is perfect to have with that green. Yeah. Just like hammer it at home, but I think in terms of the yellow hour is, I think brands are trying to occupy like a 1% of someone's brain and like the fast you can get to that 1% whether it's an like a literal time or a colour or a word like hedonism, the stick you're at gets. But how did you, what is that yellow hour like, or how does that, that hour what kind of bubble up into the big thesis of the brand? Do you remember? Yeah, I mean it's to me sort of, it doesn't all start with the inner hour. The inner hour comes from a few things like, you know, I've worked as brands building for you know, almost 20 years and I think the one thing that everyone needs when it comes to drinks is like a really clear consumption moment, right? Like what's the occasion when you're going to drink something? And particularly the non-alcoholic space, I think the biggest challenge is people don't know, you know, when it's for or what to create around it or, you know, like people, you know, they just sort of think it's an alcohol moment which then becomes an alcoholic moment and that's not what we wanted to create. We wanted to own a moment, a feeling, a vibe. And the yellow hour came from, you know, a play on the golden hour. And you know, the golden hour being, you know, that moment, you know, when the night's beautiful, I was taking photos and you're having drinks with your car. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And everyone knows what that feels like, you know, it feels like a really exciting time of day, it feels like you're winding down, you're moving into the next stage, you with your pals, everyone feels great, you know, it's a very emotional space for me. And the yellow hour came from that, which was, we wanted to own yellow, we wanted to own an occasion. It's an aperitivo. And then a aperitivo is, you know, between five and seven, it's that moment when, you know, you slip out of work and you want something really special to demarcate, you know, the next stage in your day. And the yellow hour is what that's about. So it's about really owning an occasion that link to our brand. Yeah, because I was speaking to Margot Henderson, who does Rochelle Cantine. Oh, what owns Rochelle, who owns Rochelle Cantine. And she was saying that we're talking about like how they are of drinking a grooney. And it's like what you want is that, that smack of your, it's such a smack when you first start drinking. Yeah. That it does kind of demarcate a moment in time where you're like moving to a different part of the day. But then she was saying, you drink it slowly enough, the ice at the edge, you need that hit when you're stressed, like bang, right, it's time to chill. But the ice as it melts, then you kind of, the drink kind of dances with you. The drink's so powerful at the beginning, but by the time it's kind of water down with the ice, it's your kind of looser and goosey. And I think yours does it because it's got that, I don't know, apple cider vinegar kind of hit. But it's the bit of sweet backbone is what you talk about. Like it's just that it has that kind of smack around the face. And then it just, but obviously not getting twisted on it because it's alcohol free. But it has that kind of moment, which as I say, I think it moves into it into a different part of the day. In terms of, like, to take us to 3 AM, Mexico City, like, take us to that. It won't want to leave that. You can do it. How Bativa came about. I think, like, for me, what's really interesting about it is that most non-acolic drinks brand started because someone, I don't know, they couldn't drink or they were pregnant or they were sober and so they decided they wanted to create a drinks brand. And that for me is a very different starting point. I think Bativa started a completely different way. It started very organically, which you have to talk about. No, Bativa sort of came about. Actually, I made for the clients, like another business I have called Remar, which is like drinks, consultancy and event company. And, you know, we sort of did like fancy parties for some fancy people. And, you know, like, when our suppliers were asking for more sophisticated, non-acolic options, I sort of, as a sort of lover, for sort of craft and, like, making drinks. I remember when I, like, our thing was always as a start of raw ingredients. It was never to sort of buy in purees or liqueurs, make everything ourselves. Which, you know, which basically meant that, like, when many started asking for non-acolic products, I wanted to have a go at making my own one. And I looked to the market and sort of see what was out there, and realized that, like, one of the main things that was missing at the non-acolic factory was that sort of craft or make a culture. Like, if you look at any sort of adjacent category, you have, like, brewers and beer. And, you have wine makers in wine and, like, pistilas and, but in the non-acolic space, there was very little of that. And, that was, like, a big, like, a big part of the sort of brief I gave myself for Bativa. And what were these, what were these, some of these lavish parties you were doing? Like, take us to one of them. Go on, tell them. He's so low-key. He never shows up about it. Yeah, I need to hear about this. That sounds interesting. Yeah, we did like, I mean, brother has done some like, extraordinary. Because that is the hendonism part of it. And I think there's the, the, some of the greatest ideas start in these, like, at these lavish parties, and it doesn't, like, not specifically your lavish parties. But one of these things is it's like, all these, if you actually want to look at this as they're microcosm of cities, like, the reason London's so great, if there's so many fucking interesting people there colliding. Whereas if you go to say, I mean, I keep lambasting whole, but like, whole isn't exactly got the same as London, right? So these parties are where all these interesting ideas intersect. So yeah, what was kind of the lavish parties, maybe take us to one, and what was kind of the receptive feedback you were getting? Because I think, as you say, no one was taking craft to the low-to-no, or I'll call free category. But then something obviously happened at this time, in the zeitgeist, what made you think, right, that's actually keep, keep moving in there. Tell me about some of the parties you did there. Yeah, that's what I'm interested in. Yeah, let's get to the good stuff. Yeah, tell me about the Hinduism. He did the Royal Wedding. Yeah, I mean, like the Royal Wedding. Yeah, like, how are you banging? Which one did you do? What do you wish you wanted? I remember, yeah, so yeah, but I'll be with us for a bit for that one. And I went to Calvin Harris's wedding. He went to Calvin Harris's wedding. Well, what was the wedding like? I remember. Yeah, yeah, what was she like? Well, yeah, well, she's lovely, yeah, I mean, you should write a very famous ending, bro. He won't tell me anything. I'm always trying to get the answer to that. I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah, the goth stuff. The tensions behind that sort of cocktail tasting. You also like, please, like, those rings. But, you know, yeah, like, did any good things with Calvin Harris who'd done stuff for Kate Moss, going flying out to Qatar to make sort of cocktails for three hours for the Royal family? I mean, we were doing sort of like, you know, big fancy parties, but people really care about like, what are you drinking? Yeah, because I think you learn at the cross section of everything. Like, viewed the founder of Innocent the other week. Adam Ballon, he's got a racing car addiction. He loves racing cars round tracks. And I was like, oh, what does racing cars teach you about brand building? Like, and he was like, I never thought of that. And he goes, well, actually, it's the delicate dance between, like, high-octane energy, as in you're razzling a car around brands, I was going to say, brand tree, brand's hatch. So, it's that kind of restless, like, grinding down, but actually a lot of race car driving is data, and you know, if you go into a car without looking at the data, you're just going to go off the grid. So, he's like, that's what brand building is like. It's like, it's a dance between high-octane energy with like, kind of the delicate, soft organisational touch of data. And I think at these parties, which are like, probably lavish, what were some of the learnings you took from that, that you think have kind of oozed into the brand, like, the honey, I suppose? Well, I mean, like, you just, like, you've got to be ready. Like, whatever happens, 500 people are piling to the door and two hours, like, you're ready. I mean, in terms of, like, a sort of, like, legit, I'd be like a logistical knife, but how about multiple vans up to some 20 people? Yeah. We're going to take this to the thousand things, and we're going to, like, it's just sort of like, I think also the brief of the product that you created came from the demands of people in that space, right? They were sort of, like, opulone, and they wanted something that was, you know, narcolic, but had in flavorings, no preservatives, full taste, all natural, like, really, craft, like, made of scratch. And I think that's when you realise it doesn't exist. Yeah, that's when you put it into it. Yeah, definitely. And then, yeah, and then, I guess, like, you know, the first, the first sort of challenge we have was, like, how to overcome, like, you know, like, a key thing for me, like, three, three key things. One I wanted to bring some craft into the category. One, another one was, like, I wanted it to sort of not rely on, like, preservatives to sort of stabilise it. And I also wanted to use, like, really ingredients. And, I guess, like, the toughest one to begin with was, like, how to overcome the sort of shelf life, because, like, everything natural wants us to go off. So, to support every book I could under the sun on, like, preservation, and sort of, just, you know, where everything I could, like, I sort of came across these, like, ancient tonnets called oxymelts. Oxymelts? Oxymelts? Melts, yeah. Yeah, so it's, like, Latin for acid and honey. So, the acid being vinegar and honey. And then plus botanicals. And, like, these were, these were so drawn by, like, the ancient Greeks. As a way to, like, preserve the medicinal properties of, like, botanicals. So, yeah, they were always sort of available. And that was, like, you know, that was at the perfect base. And really, like, light bulb moment to sort of realise that actually we could do this. What I didn't have is any data around, like, how long they'd last four, because, you know, they're having the number four on a sort of, like, large scale. So, then, to start playing around with various botanicals, but, I mean, you know, vinegar was, like, an amazing, like, you know, it is, like, an amazing ingredient. It is, like, it's been, like, using preservation forever. It also sort of comes from alcohol. All vinegar starts its life off as alcohol first. So, it has all those, like, amazing, like, extraction qualities that, like, you get to an alcohol. And, I mean, I guess, like, the main challenge I see in an alcoholic category is, is that, with me, alcohol, it isn't, it's incredible. Like, it brings body, like, mouthfeel, it has extraction qualities. It is, like, the ultimate preservative. And without that, it's impossible. It really isn't possible. So, like, you have to find, like, a robot based, all-use preservatives. And I think, like, just going back to your question around, kind of, hedonism, and where that comes in. I think, for me, what makes a betoe-based story different was that where it was born from was a sort of world of hedonism, which are these, sort of, opulent parties, and people wanted to have something, like, delicious and powerful, and that's where it was born. And I think, you know, the kind of issue, from what my brand had on, with the non-alcoholic category is that, it's all about moderation, right? And actually, we're not a moderation brand, we're a pleasure brand. And we always bang on about that, like, internally, right? And hedonism is a really big part of that, you know? We don't believe that hedonism just means staying up till 8am and smashing those drugs. And hedonism can be going to, you know, having a delicious carrot in, like, a restaurant. And it's really crispy and, like, it smells amazing. And it's that really indulgence of hedonistic moment around, you know, experiences. And I think, reading a book, like, in a park with a coffee is hedonistic. I think the definition of, like, yeah, hedonism is, like, so tied to just getting off your nut. Like, I don't think it's, I don't think it's that. I think you're right. It's those small moments, which is kind of what I kind of put my hat on, is this yellow hour, right? Or the golden hour or whatever it was. It's definitely very important. It's that kind of that indulgent moment. I want to go just back to these sort of lavish parties, because I think this is where my curiosity's going. But, like, because I think perfection is like a thousand things done very well. And I think you guys are doing lots, like, loads and loads of things that are kind of all incrementally adding up. But at these, because I'm reading the book by the Founder of Four Seasons, fucking interesting. And he basically goes into how they differentiate the hotel. So Canadian guy, and he was, he was like, we can't be the most opulent hotel. We can't be, to begin with, right? Obviously, now it is. So he goes, what we're going to do is just do the service. Like, unparalleled service, like, think of every small thing that when it adds up, it creates this kind of lavish experience. And if these kind of lavish parties were the kind of the birthplace of the brand, were there any, like, interesting things or, like, things that's kind of sparse, curiosity of like, oh, shit, that's how they do that, do you know what I mean? In terms of, when you're at these parties. In terms of what though? In terms of, like, the little things that add up, do you know what I mean? Like, at the wedding, what was, was there, like, did they do something special for the guests? Did they, how did you pull the drinks? Well, like, detail, though, isn't it? Yeah. And I think, like, you know, in terms of, like, our drinks themselves. Like, people often ask us to make, I'm a simple drink. I'm Marguerite, isn't it? You know, when we're making, like, we're making, we're making, like, we're making amazing. But people generally book us to make, like, something different. And like, especially in the events world, I guess, it's very difficult to have a brand presence because you're, it might be someone's wedding or a corporate party. Like, there's no, you can't pass to your brand everywhere. So, like, the way that we would stand out would be by making an interesting drink. And people would sort of taste and stop and talk about it because it was an ingredient that, you know, like, they weren't expecting. And I think, like, learning from that, I mean, like, with the TV, the TV is also a very unusual flavour. Yeah, so unusual. And people talk about it because of this sort of strange and strange outcome. I mean, like, I mean, like, the story, like, the reason why it became a thing was because, you know, Sam creased it for these parties and then people kept coming up and being like, "Where do I buy this? Back in the industry." And that's when you bottled it, right? And that's in the old brand, and it was sort of a cottage industry. But that's, you know, when you say cottage industry, it's more like a sort of sidehouse. I mean, I knew that I wanted to spend all my time on Bativa, but, you know, I had, like, another business to run and I was out to be looking for a business partner and eventually did in Mexico. Let's go to, yeah, let's go to 3am at a wedding. Mexico City, what's the first thing you say to each other? I think it was not Bativa, I think it was sort of chapter. It just comes on out and I'm like, "Fuckin Bativo, hi me, hi me." So the back story is, is that Bativa had been around for a couple of months, but it wasn't an old, it wasn't like a wine bottle. It was quite a serious, a beautiful brand. And I tried at a friend's house as a consumer. So my entry point into Bativa was actually as a consumer. And going back to the whole hedonist thing and where that came from, a lot of that came from the brand strategy and us being like, you know, it sounds the artisan and I'm quite a hedonist, actually, just in general, in life. And I love brands that have this tension between something attention and I think that's the addition of the idea. Exactly, and I thought, like, you know, what I found so interesting was that when I tried this liquid for the first time in the old branding, I was obsessed with it. I was drinking it every day. Like, I'm a boozer. Like, I would never normally interact with an alcoholic category at that point. And I just couldn't believe that me as someone who was quite sort of pleasure seeking, like, could just love it so much. But the brand at the time, or the bottle it was in, because it was, you know, sort of side hustle, was a sort of serious bottle, and it was in the wine bottle. And anyway, so when I met Sam at 3am in, you know, in Mexico, and I asked him sort of what he did, and he was with his, you know, with his wife, he was also at the time working on it with Sam. Who was winning, was it? Like, how did you both. It was a mutual friend from, I used to live in New York, and you were. I was like, that's cool, like an old. Okay, yeah. So it's all like, you guys didn't know each other. No, no, no, no, no, you're right, okay, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so then I was like, what'd you do? And Sam was like, "Petiba," and I was like, "Ah, my God!" I was like, "I've been looking for you, like, I'm obsessed with this liquid, but my background is brand building, and like, I think it's a really pleasurable, playful, rich liquid, and I want to come on board as a business partner, and I really believe in it, and I think it's could be like the next big thing, please, and I went home, and I wrote a huge puzzle of where I wanted to take it, and sort of beg Sam to bring me up. I'll get into that proposal and say, "I think it's so interesting how you, as you said, you came into it trying the product first." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just being to mark about this morning at breakfast, and he was basically saying that, "Well, we were talking about why trends, everyone like, like, talk time, what's the next thing?" The next thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, I think the better question to ask is, what's timeless? And in food and drink, it's like, one minute's gut health, one minute's functional, one of its loads of no, one minute's blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, there's a trend change, so like, you want to build a brand that's timeless, and what is the thing that's going to stand the test of all time? Does the product taste unreal? Is it yummy? It's like, really simple. Yeah, yeah, it's so true. Is it yummy? Like, fuck it out. And I think it's so interesting is, and what Mark was saying is, I'd pick a brand, the brand you can sort, like, the brand's actually the easy bit. Yeah. There's so many people get the brand right, but the product wrong. Yeah. There's actually, if you invert and say, the product's unreal, you can get an agency. You can, you can raise money and get an agency. Yeah, but the brand has to be connected to the liquid, and I think for sure, but I think what I think we're touching on here is like a real principle, which is, is the product, but as you said, the inside outside job of like, the brand works so well, because when I drink it, it's like, it's almost those illustrations are like, kind of dancing on my taste buds, you know what I mean? But it has to kind of work that way around. But so then, so you meet this wedding, and in a you're like, right, I'm gonna go and write this plan, done brand-building shit for ages. You've got this amazing product, Sam, lavish parties, the falsha bang. What's specifically, what's the opening sentence in that, in that proposal? Like how, how do you structure it? So I think that could really help. I think it's so easy to actually kind of conceive something in your head. But actually, when you have to write it down and say, this is where, this is how this, we're going to bring this potato baby into the world. I mean, I think there's a few things. First of all, it was like, I am the last person to enter this category, or it was likely to enter it, and I'm obsessed with your liquids. I'm like, I need to be part of this. I think this liquid and the taste is something really special. I need to be part of it. And then from a sort of brand point of view, for me, you know, what makes, no, Bativo really, really different is that it's a really pleasurable, really rich, really hedonistic liquid, right? And I think the brand at the time, was quite serious and worthy, as was actually most things at the time in our collection. What year is this? It's two years ago, two and a half years ago. Even then, things were either like really craft and serious and kind of health, or they were really flavoured, fun and kind of cheap, right? Soft drinks versus health drinks versus kind of mimic drinks of things that existed out there. And where the massive white space was from a category point of view, was something that's super, super craft, and I mean handmade, takes a year to make, no flavourings, no preservatives, not craft because you put it on the bottle, but truly takes a year to make. And then something that was really playful and pleasurable and, you know, brought this kind of joy to view, for a kind of approach to life to it. Well, sure, does that work? Sure, do you be able to be like, you know, just like to grab your life by the horns and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like almost like our kind of banquet scene sort of has on the label and the whole world. And I just felt like, is that label linked to the lavish parties, that kind of that, I mean, it could be. I mean, it's interesting. I think it's interesting that you picked up on like hedonism being at the crux of it because actually that was something we constructed when we built the brand, but you're absolutely right and that it's in the DNA of it because it was made for lavish opulent places and for lavish. Yeah, because that's what I'm trying to get to understand is because it's so unusual how you can't reverse engineer something that unusual. So it's almost like, but now it makes sense. If it is at these weird unusual lavish, it's unusual lavish of the two words, I'll be honest to you as I drink it. Okay, that makes sense. If it starts at this, you get a brief, like kind of a weird brief, it's not a brief you're going to get from a diaggio or a, or our indeed apartment, really in quid, that's how you get a product that's genuinely unique. Exactly. And that's kind of what I meant in the beginning when I said, it's really unique, an authentic story of how it began because it wasn't, oh, I can't drink, I need to find, I need to make a drink to fit this whole or whatever, you know, and it wasn't the idea of saying, we need NPD, it was literally, I make a delicious drink for these people, everyone loves it, I need to like bottle it. And I think that, and then people just love it because it's so delicious, and that kind of evolved into something. And so for me, it feels like a really authentic story, which I really believe in, and which is very, like, you know, very easy for our team to talk about because they all kind of feel it. It's not, it's not an opportunity everyone's trying to exploit, it's just everyone bloody loves it. Yeah. Once everyone's drinking it and really feels passionate about it. And then so on that dark, or that kind of, you know, Alex Smith, the strategy guy, he's been on the podcast though, so he talks about like a strategy is you can hide behind PowerPoint slides, and they're basically superfluous gump that you present to people, but it's actually if you write a strategy document as in type out, like in almost like an pros way, it just cuts out all the whiff in your thinking, and that's the right way of saying it, for you shouldn't say that, Diagio. But like, you know what I mean, is it, so what were you writing down in there in terms of like, this is how we take this lavish, opulent hedonistic bevy to the TV? I mean, there's kind of four areas to it that I always would tell a story around a brand about, and there's four, I guess, tensions that you need to play to when you want to create a brand that has longevity, and that is really resonant. And the first one is, what's the cultural tension that it's playing to, you know, what is going on, and why do you have longevity in terms of where culture's heading? The second thing is what's going on in the category, and what kind of white spaces or what tensions can you rub up against? Yeah. The third one is who's your consumer? What makes them different? And the fourth one is, what makes your, your branding, your product? Like, you know, what's in its DNA? You know, what can you do that no one else can do? And I sort of took those four elements, and for Bativo, what that was was, in culture it was, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, so the tension, just to find the tension specifically. So that's right. So I'll, so I'll talk you through it. So basically, I'll put in culture, the tension was, light as fucking shit, basically. Yeah. At the moment, like, you know, no one can buy houses, like, COVID's going on, the economy's going to shit. Like, everything feels really heavy and really overwhelming. And yet, then what drinks in the category, what people to then do is, oh, then also, by the way, moderate and don't drink. So life is rubbish anyway, and now I'm going to come to you, and I'm going to say, also, you can't drink anymore, and you can't do this, and this is, no, you can't do that. No, you can't do this. And so the cultural tension was actually well, for real, feels really heavy. So we're going to play a role in culture, which is really delightful and pleasurable and light. That was kind of that fed into it. Yeah. And the tension in terms of the category was at the time, and I think even now, to be honest. So with a category story, so just, so you're looking at the alcohol, were you looking at, I'm looking at anything, which doesn't have alcohol in it. So looking at soft drinks, looking at health drinks, I'm looking at, okay, you're not out for it. Not just kind of the aperitivo vibe. No, no, no, no, no, you're looking at seedlip and filling the back. Yeah, that as well. But you're looking at the full spectrum. Yeah, and you're going, what is the, you know, what's the tension here? And actually when it came to know, I'll call it the tension was, it's all about moderation. It's all about what you can't do. And actually, the tension that we, how we wanted to rub up against that was, we're not about moderation, we're about the opposite. We're about hedonism and pleasure. That was kind of what fed into that. So tension one is culture, we're going to rough, yeah, okay. So tension one is, we're going to, like bring delight to people when things are really rubbish. Tension number two is, we're going to bring pleasure to a category that's all about holding back in moderation. And then the consumer one was, actually, we're not going to talk to people that are necessarily health conscious or are doing stuff to cut back on calories. It was actually about kind of hedonistic pleasure seekers who love food and drink, who love things and may, who love the quality of ingredients, like foodies effectively. Yep. And actually at the time, and even now I think a lot of the narratives around non-college space are like so curious or holding back or health. And actually, we don't ever talk about health, even though we're really healthy, because our strategy is to go like really big, unlike pleasure and like deliciousness and foodies. And we're promising them taste and an experience, not a moderation thing. And the fourth one, which was less of a tension, actually, but is the brand one is more, you know, what can you do authentically to tell that story, which no one else can. And, you know, we are the only brand that has no flavorings or preservatives in our category, you know, in the kind of spirits category. We were the only one that took a year to make, with the only one that had a maker at the heart of it in, I guess, in spirits, not in, you know, wild scientist, etc. And so the reason why we could claim, you know, this idea of sort of being artisanal, but also being quite hedonistic was because it was an artisanal process, but the liquid itself was so punchy and so powerful and strong and not watered down. And it could sort of talk, the talk, that we were kind of promising people. That was the kind of holster, actually, behind it. Yeah, that tension thing is really interesting. Alex Smith has the whole thing of don't unique selling points are kind of not like so many people talk about features, not benefits when they're kind of, you know, with less, less more probiotic, less calories, more protein. It's kind of just stuff that's very conscious and it's like, oh, every fucker out there saying the same thing, I don't mean it's, and actually what he said, and that's almost like kind of conscious, unique selling points are kind of conscious, but actually going deeper is unique points of disagreement. And that's where you can hit people subconsciously. It's like, how do you, I suppose, in your thing of saying this is that those tensions, it's like, what do you push against? What do you disagree with someone on? Because that's how you find, as you say, that kind of white space in the category. And I think it's really interesting what you're saying. Yeah, because like consuming the brand, looking at the brand, the activations is it is not, it's, it's the need to assist to that kind of moderation, kind of walk it down, not enjoyable, delicious, indulgent experience. And that's super interesting. Where did you learn those four kind of tenants? Oh, I worked in sort of brand building for, you know, and the agency signed for like years. And actually that was like an iteration of that was what we were sort of taught in terms of like where to do brand positioning, basically. It was always like, look at those four areas. What were some of the brands you did? I worked for like Adidas, like Nike, Indiagio, Hanuken, Craigus, like, just a whole range. So would Adidas create like a, like how the Adidas would have that kind of thinking with the product? Yeah, so it would be like, I'd work on like brand architecture stuff, for example, it would be like, what is the Adidas master brand? And then what are the sub brands? And how do they all live together as a family? And how do we, to identify and, you know, really clarify their different personalities and how they all sit together as a family? Is that there's no example of that? I mean, it changes literally every like two years, that's it. Yeah, when I, when I did that, that was, I, yeah, I was consulted. I was in the 80s for 70s, then I was consulted directly for brands for like 80s. And I would say that I probably worked on the same brands like three or four times and every time it would evolve. Yeah, because that's nothing we were talking about with Mark this morning is this evolution piece of brands. It's like, how you have to evolve. I talked about this a while. I've been writing about this at the champagne versus cocoa pop problem. So the champagne is like kind of when you've got your early adopters and it's kind of so many founders of middle class create middle class products for middle class people, middle class branding, middle class price points. That's great. But if you want to come to the cocoa pop shopper, which isn't an Audi shopper, it's someone who probably shops in Sainsbury's. And it's cognizant of the price of cocoa pops, right? So how do you go from champagne? This is niche, this is mass market. And I think as you said at the beginning with these lavish parties, it was quite old cottage, I think you said brand. And now you've kind of ballooned it into this pitivo and it's like, we're not, we're not trying to suppress people from having fun. I think that's how you move from champagne to cocoa pop. In terms of, yeah, Sam, so then you get this document from Emma, like what what's your perspective on it? Because where I want to eventually get to today is, I think what's really interesting with you guys is it's, it's a male female co-founder partnership, which is kind of unique in of itself. And I think I'm reading this book all the seven plots, fucking long, basically how to tell stories, really fucking interesting. And there's a bit in it where he talks about the perfect balance, which is between the kind of the hero and the heroine and not heroine like getting on smack. That is heroine's the right word, isn't it? Yeah, I think so. No, you're only making me that much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I want to get, I want to explore some of these things further down the line because it's a really interesting play. And I think it is, it's unique. Most people I sit across having got this kind of unique balance and relationship. But yeah, so you receive to start open it up, you receive this document, my document, like what are your initial guttural thoughts? Well, I mean, I mean, I was, I was very open to having a business partner anyway, like I think having that run my business on like without a business partner before, it's like it's a massive undertaking. Sure. And then to then have two was even bigger and Bativo in terms of its complexity was like, if it weren't well, it would be like a massive beast that I would definitely need some support. So I was, I was, I was, I was actually looking for business partner and and then when I received him as document, I was like blown away, I was like, well, that's incredible. And like, you know, marketing brands, not my background. And, you know, I'm perfectly capable of like, you know, running a business. But in terms of like getting it out there and setting it, like bass and massive and massive, that was like a massive sort of problem for me that Emma and her little document or her, her long document, absolutely so. Yeah, I think, but I think going back to your point around like the partnership, I think, it's obviously like male female, but I think it's also like like different energies like Sam is a morbid introvert. You're also like, he pays much more attention to like detail, which is going back to your kind of point in the beginning about, you know, every detail about the way that Bativo has made come from Sam, right? He's got like a session with detail and excellence. Well, I'm a bit more sort of extraverted and a bit more like, this will be a great thing to do, you know, and I think having that balance is probably less about gender and more just about personality type. Yeah, when I say gender, I don't mean it in terms of like, this is purely from like the storytelling book. It's not like in terms of male female in, like, today's kind of part is not like, I'm sort of some raging misogynist, but it's, it's just really interesting because in the book, he talk, they go through like all these fucking characters from, they talk about like Crocodile Dundee, they talk about, like home and the odyssey, like, all these kind of basic plots in the stories. So you've got like ragged to riches, the quest, but one chapter is about this balance and they talk about kind of everyone, male and female has, like, so females have like a, a dark male, male side in stories, this is, I'm not, we need to caveat this massively. I've seen my face. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and, and, and, and males have kind of a life in them side, and in stories that it's the kind of the happy ending is the resolution of those things. I'd love to know, like, what is more of your sort of, and this is, again, I'm not trying to be pretty cute, great here, but what is more of your sort of feminine side and what's more of your male side, and because in terms of these energies colliding, I think it's quite an interesting place to play. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't know if I, let's say, believe in female and male energies as much. I think, like, I've actually always had quite a male energy. That's what I mean, yeah, which, I agree with you that, I think, the category, it's categorising, it's kind of myopic, like, it's, it can flow. Yeah, I mean, I think, like, it's definitely, I mean, I think, like, it's, it's such tricky one. I sort of, I don't even know if I can separate male and female energy, because I think, like, I know men, I'm much more empathetic than me, but I know men are much less empathetic than me, and I think, yeah, you're a very empathetic person as well, but I definitely, I'm also, say, like, yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, I think, like, maybe, like, a substantial typical character that I have, maybe that would be more associated with what I was, like, as I, as I, as I, in my sense, I could have, like, a real, like, love and attention, like, detail. Yeah. Which, obviously, certainly, may, can as well, but, like, that'll probably, like, why? Yeah, so, yeah, so, yeah, so, yeah, because it's just, one of the things I wanted to kind of, I'm pulling out is this word unusual, and I think a lot of it is this, this juxtaposition right from the beginning, the artisan, the headness. I'm trying to, it's, kind of, tease these out, because, as you say, get this unusual brown, this unusual product, but kind of pulling out these things. I think the attention to detail is really interesting. Is there, like, where was, where did that kind of come from that? I was listening to a podcast last night about this, one of the questions they ask, like, these big tech firms ask this question, they're basically saying that in interviews, people can, interviews like Bollocks, really, isn't it? It's good. I won't be able to say that, but it is kind of load of Bollocks. It's just, like, people talking about their resume or CV. Yeah, yeah. And he says all these, one of the questions they're looking for when they hire people is hire agency people. So people who basically, you know, turn them on to get shit done, or, like, ruthlessly, resourceful as what they're talking about. And he's, and one of the questions, all these tech firms ask, and why see a coordinator use it is, what were some of the weird things you did that most people didn't do as a kid? Because the reason that shows it kind of plays your tension in there is, if you're willing to, you know, when you're older, it's much easier to go against the grain, because it's your older, you're more mature. But when you're a kid to do weird things, there's kind of, it's, you're the weird kid in school, and there must be the weird kid in school. So I'd love to know, like, what were some of the weird attention to deal things for you, mate? You did when you were younger, when you were a teenager, specifically, that have then, I'd love to know this too. Because then you're pushing, it was what I'm trying to get you. A lot of what you're doing is you're looking at this, and you're pushing against it, no matter how you're doing it. So I'd love to know, yeah, what were some of the weird things. I mean, for myself, I'd try to, like, all sorts of fucking random shit. Like a kind of obsessive, compulsive, hugely addictive personality. So, you know, I'd just, if I like something, I'm going all in, but it would cause me to do, like, one minute was weightboarding. I got weird obsessive weightboarding. Then I wanted to set up a peanut butter cut business as a side hustle to money life, which was a tragic. I was basically getting freddo's from fucking Costco. I'm sticking them in this community, but it was, I love peanut butter cuts. Yeah, yeah, but they were, I mean, it was, I didn't, I remember not selling one at this village fair. They said, "Head all these mum's laundry baskets full of fucking peanut butter cuts and it's on one." I was driving back and I was just kind of just driving just like, "Oh, fuck this." And just got, got a higher mind supply and ate about five of the butter. But yeah, I'd love to know what are the kind of the weird formulas, specifically with you, some of the attention to detail from when you're a teenager. Of course, the hard ones, I have to think about that, but I mean, I would always just be like obsessed with the same thing. It would be the same thing. The same thing. I would just always be obsessed with, it could be like, I love like art sculptures, so I'd either be in the art studio just doing that. I'd do that some months, or I'd be obsessively into a new game or sport or something, but it was kind of like all on nothing. And deep. Yeah. And what's the cult, what sort of art sculptures are you doing? They're pretty dodgy. I could say some bitches. They were sort of, they're always like some quite abstract. Like, what I've heard some of you guys, I'm sort of trying to sort of cubist and like. Wascubist? Wascubist? Like. Iscubism's that like very abstract expressionist movement with loads of sort of distorted bases with sort of straight edges, and it was sort of like incredible. Yeah. And I mean, I never regret anything worth doing, but you know, my mum's got them all, mum's got them all at home. That's so interesting, because the podcast that came out yesterday actually was with the guy called Will Store, who wrote the book, the science of storytelling, the status game, and selfie how the West became self obsessed, fucking interesting guy. And he talks about this thing called the "Blandemic." So he wrote a book with a guy, he co-wrote a book with a guy who did who designed Cold Drop Charge. And he talks about this "Blandemic" thing. He says, the "Blandemic" so "Blandemic" is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, is Rife in Brands. And again, as say you looking at the category, there's a tension there by pushing away. He says in three star meets you in restaurants, because chefs are not trying to create food that the consumer will get onto the consumer piece in their own. The consumer actually likes. They are creating food to impress other chefs, to gain status from other chefs. There's the same thing with architecture. So this, the guy, he's a guy designed New London bus. You know, not like today new, but like a few years ago. But then you went, like the one that's a bit like that. Yeah, they're very fast. Yeah, he designed that. Yeah, yeah. Fucking interesting guy. But he's this guy, because he's pushed against the grain, all the architects was always minimalism in architecture. And he was kind of ostracized from that, because he wasn't confining with the way he should know. No, I mean, and like these chefs, as you try and not cook a thing with it, you know, I don't know all the rages at the minute, but what, you know, a couple of years ago it was fucking sous-vingshit. That would gain status from the chefs world, but the actual consumer doesn't give a fuck whether it's sous-vied or not. They want a nice piece of dark. And that's what I think is interesting with this cubism. Yeah. Like it's like, it sounds like a really interesting push against. I mean, like you're like you're definitely right about this sort of the chefs trying to impress other chefs, like any time I was ever making drinks, it would be to sort of make something impressive, not necessarily something tasty, which is like something a bit weird, a bit like a bit like what is that? What is that weird flavour? And yeah, just got like, I mean, I actually started my life in Australia as a sort of training chef, and I think that was probably like where my self-adension, the detail came from. Where about some of you? Is it called the "Chefing" and what am I saying? Well, I think that's probably a very generous way to sort of start, I mean, I was actually like, just like training in kitchens. In kitchens? Well, the first one was for, actually the first early propagation was, it was like a nightclub in the West End. Oh sick. And, you know, day one, no, I was doing, just sort of swearing deep in and it was like, I mean, it was intense, but like, I loved it. And having like, I actually ended up in that kitchen because I sort of tried out, I mean, every single job under the sun to sort of try and find the one that sort of felt right for me, and I mean, I did everything from sort of trying out in a city, to property, to trade shows, to everything. And I finally went to hospitality and just day one, I loved it. And what was it that you loved about it specifically? I think, I think it's that like, it's very like, you know, like, you have a very sort of clear goal at the beginning of the day, which is like, well, in the kitchen, it's like, get the food ready, people are coming, you know, make some happy customers. And it's very like self-conclusive. Yeah. And I also loved the, I mean, like, the same as true for our events as well. Like, I loved it because it was like, there was a brief and it was, you know, once you wrapped up in a bed, you never think about it again. It's sort of done. And in the, in the kitchen, so I just loved that sort of, you know, you might spend three hours picking spinach, or you might do Julianian carrots, or whatever it might be. And like, I just loved that repetition, just like, every time it's like getting better at it. And like, yes. Yes. It was, there's a, because you guys were in Paulines with threshold, aren't you? Number six. Yeah. There's a video at which I just think sums up craft, like the obsession with craft. And I try and apply it to my, my kind of addiction is writing. I love writing, but constantly just trying to fucking same thing, but get better and better. Video of Paulines worth with scollops. And he's just going to act. And he like literally does like 25 in a minute, whereas you know, it's like, I mean, I've never fondled a scollop of that. We're saying things, but, yeah, I can't say I have, but, but that, you know, it's, it could probably take some normal person 10, 15 to 20 minutes to get fucking scollop out and keep it all intact. He's just like a machine gun. And I think there's, there's something about that kind of, that's the artisanal part of this equation, which is that maniacal obsession with getting things better and better and better and better. That's so interesting. And then, Emma, what were your kind of, how did you push against the grain as a kid? Well, in those teenage years? Or did you? Like, no, I was quite naughty, but I, I think like, I think my childhood was quite unusual in some ways, because I was, I was one of six kids. Fuck, yeah. Where, where, where, where? Obviously, the middle child. Everyone's like obviously, I know, I want to, I want to fall sick. Sorry, so I've got three older sisters, two little brothers. And then my parents were German and Danish, but we grew up in, actually Tokyo till I was like three and then, and then we moved to London. Tokyo, can you remember much of Tokyo? A little bit, but like, really like, like, I remember like, you know, earthquake drills and, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah. I had a bit of an identity crisis when I arrived from there and obviously it was sort of whitehead and blue eyed. But anyway, my parents were German, Danish and we spoke Danish at home and we ate German food and they sort of, you know, never really integrated that much, I think, into a sort of British society, if you're like, where about some Britain, were you living in London? We lived in London, yeah. And so it was a sort of very weird world where we sort of, it was like, captain fantastic almost. You know, like that, that film where like, he lives with his family and his forest and sort of say, we'd be at home, we'd speak Danish, we'd eat German food and then we'd go to school in London. And so there was a lot of identity things going on. And that's the first thing. And second of all, I think when you're one of six, you basically have to do things really quickly to get like, heard, you've got to eat quickly to eat. You also, you know, I think my, I've always jumped around a lot more. So if I, you know, when I listen to Sam being like, I go really deep on stuff, I was probably the opposite where I would, you know, pick up an instrument and then get bored of it really quickly. And then, yeah, and just do like, seven or eight of them, but like for like six months. I was like, I was like, to my dad was like, what school of rock has that thing? I was like, I need a fucking guitar mate. And he was like, so he took me to the shop. I was like, mate, Tim and me, I was like, getting a fucking bass guitar sound. And then literally got it for one day. You know, that song like thing, thing, thing, that fucking song, everyone can play on the guitar and then fucked it off after a day. But yeah, it was exactly that. And then, and I guess like, weirdly going back to a bit of a tangent, but going back to your question around kind of gender, one thing that I always think is quite interesting was that I'd short hair until I was 14 years old. I was really short, like I had like a side parting, like curtain. And I was a real tomboy. And to the point where I'd be thrown out of girls' loos whenever I went for a wee in like restaurants or like places, I'd always like to have to sneak in as if I was, you know, because I was just getting in trouble. And is that only like, weirdly now that I've got, I've got twins that are a boring girl that I've just turned four. And weirdly, it was anywhere like had them. And I saw the way that people treated, you know, a boy and a girl like kid when I was walking down the street with them, that I realised that so much in my childhood was probably shaped by the fact that people thought I was a boy. And at that time, which was, you know, 35 years ago, you know, 25 years ago, it meant that I wasn't gendered in a way that a lot of people were. And I really took that on in my parenting, you know, because when I had a boy and girl and they were babies, I saw the way that everyone would treat my son like, hey, you're big, lad, you're going to play, you know, you're going to like play Rugga when you're older or football. And then to my daughter, they'd be like, hey, fragile, fragile butterfly, like, oh, like don't drop her, you know. And I just thought, like, it's so interesting seeing it side by side and realising the impact that how people treat you, like when you're growing up, impacts like how you grow up. So then I started really messing with people, so now my daughter had a short, I can't have a short, and my son I put him in dresses. And to this day, like, they still, she still had a short hair, he still loves wearing dresses as well. And it's sort of the way that they then experienced the world was so much, was so different, like people were suddenly treating her like, she was mischievous little monkeys, she could do whatever she wanted. And suddenly people were treating him with this like real softness that he never experienced when he was sort of a bald, burly land, you know. And obviously now they're older and they can do and wear what they want, but it's funny how I thought back to when I had short hair and how actually there was like quite freeing in being a young girl, you know, 30 years ago where people didn't think I was a girl. Yeah, that's so wild. I haven't even thought of it. And as I said, like, what's a massive kind of preface on this, it's not like the, I'm not linchpinning onto like male, gender kind of stereotypes, it's just using it as a place to explore. No, no, no, I know. But I think it's really interesting what you're saying about having, well, a couple of things is the Danish and German and Tokyo link up is super interesting. Yeah. And then the short hair thing is growing up, you know, is, is, is, and one of six is crazy. So how do you think that those, those kind of lessons, because I think you've got parent in your kids, right? There's also like a parent and leadership in your brand, like, how's that spilled into where you do things? We've talked about kind of the weird artisanal and hedonistic liquid brand. I'd love to kind of link this even further in some kind of how you're trying to lead the team, like, how do you do that weirdly, if that makes sense? Or unusually, I think it's kind of one of the words you said a lot. I mean, I think how we lead weirdly. I mean, I think, I think like one of the things that has been very at the forefront of my mind, I don't know if it's a weird thing, but I do think we try to do things like really differently. So I think we always ask like, what's everyone else doing? And how can we like surprise people by doing it the opposite, right? So whether we say that again. So as then we often, we'll ask like, what's everyone else doing? And, and how can you do it the opposite way? And is there an opportunity in doing it like the opposite? And I think that's like a really good question to always ask yourself. So on a really simple level, we never just wanted to do samplings. We wanted to, we were like, okay, everyone else just has a, you know, a tray in the supermarket and we'll get someone to taste something like, how can we like actually make an entertainment experience? And then that's why the kind of piano was kind of created. So I think it's about sort of always kind of questioning, you know, what was expected from us as a category? And then what are other categories doing? And what can we almost borrow from the codes of those categories and bring into a category that doesn't normally do them, hence like hedonism, hence pleasure, hence, you know, sing along, like the stuff that you would normally do when you're out really shit faced with your mates, like how I can't and I'll call it brand do that, you know. And at the London Craft Beer Festival, we did the massive sing along in the whole of the London Craft Beer Festival site singing along. That was because, you know, we were borrowing the codes effectively of a normal, very boozy, brand or environment and actually being like, actually, there's a role for an alcoholic drinks brand in this space even though it's not where you'd normally put it. Yes. And so that's kind of what I mean by always trying to do the opposite and think, can you actually do it that other way? Yes. Yeah, yeah, the opposite of a good idea is a good idea. It's very subtle indeed. I love that. The opposite of a good idea is a good idea. In terms of the Danish and the German, so I don't know, I've never been to like Denmark, but I think they do, there's a feel about those kind of brands and I just, in my head, I kind of conjure up this image of kind of soft wood and all those sort of vibes. Maybe it's because I've read Norwegian wood, but that book. But yeah, how's that influenced the way you kind of view things? So I think it's really interesting. This unique kind of childhood and outsider look as being created this betoe thing further down the line, but how's that influenced things? I mean, in many ways, I almost feel like you're aesthetics more Scandinavian than in my mind. Yeah, I love like, you're almost like never seen this like a logo. So that's a normal one. But why do you think, yeah, why do Scandinys have such unique, what would you say this Scandinavian aesthetic is? I've got it in my head. It's definitely like very neutral colours, very low-key, very relaxed, very simple. Is it like Japan a bit? No, no, no, no, no, it's very very different. It's like, I do mean Japan's actually quite, it's actually quite opulent and there's lots of stimulation and there's lots of stuff. Well, I think I actually just came back from spending three weeks working in that from Denmark and we were middle of nowhere and I remember bumping into this old lady on the beach. She was like 80 and my partner was like, well, what do you like do out here? If one comes to these like lake houses and what's said to do? What should we do with the kids? And she just goes, well, the whole point is you're not supposed to do anything. She was like, that's the whole point is that you come here and there isn't stuff to do and that allows you to reconnect with the world and with each other and with nature. And I think that kind of sums up for me a lot of the Scandinavian way, which is that reflects and furniture that reflects in food. There's a very no-fast, simple, if you really simplify it, that you can enjoy it more. Yeah, I thought of that. Yeah, so Scandinavian families is so stupid, but I'm thinking if I care for some fucking reason. That's what it says, do it yourself. Yeah, in terms of the Scandinavian food, what's that like? Yeah, it's not so like meatballs and yeah, not so sort of meatballs and potatoes and lots of pickled fish. Yes. Yeah, like sort of macro. Because nomas in, that's in, where's that? Yeah, because that's what he was, this wall store guy was saying is that he went to Noma and he basically slammed Noma saying that it was everything just tasted of pipettes of vinegar. Yeah. And that was how we kind of ended in the end up in the, the, yeah, we do, yeah, I do, you know, pickle stuff is pretty, it's pretty delicious. And I'd love to know what, so in terms of the leadership point of like doing things differently and I think this tension, the opposite of good ideas is a good idea, is a principle I love. It's just like links to your tensions, links to Alex's point of disagreement. How do you get people in the team to kind of, I totally get from leadership perspective as much as this, how we want things to be done round here, but actually getting people to kind of galvanise into that way of thinking is much easier. So if you can't put that on a piece of paper, like you did originally, do you know what I mean? Yeah. How do you do that? I mean, I think like to be honest, I think we haven't actually done that. What we have done is everyone who works at Petivo is equally obsessed with it, which sounds really weird as in people like everyone drinks like a bottle of weekend. You know, it's, it's, it is a brand that I think everyone really identifies with on a liquid level but also a brand level. And if you see over there, there's that whole brand world. There's another really conscious part of it when we created the world, which started off with when I look around, I guess, particularly the non-alcoholic space set. What is it just dumb question? What is a brand world? Because a lot of people. Okay, so, oh yeah, sorry, so we've created 21 characters. If you look at that over there on the wall, there is actually. What are you on the camera fingers crossed? But if you look at our label, even our label has I think nine characters, but actually that's only nine of 21 that we've created. And the whole idea was that you're supposed to be able to look at that world and be like, I want to be there and like this represents the personality, the vibe of like Bativo. Who are some of those characters? Well, so this. You've got names for them or is it not that? And we do have names of all that. Oh, that's true. Actually, everyone who works in the company has had one named after them, apart from Sam myself. And I think Michael not yet. Let's kind of have a footage. No, the footage. Well, these act, they're actually a lot of my mates as well and Sam's mates. One of them is a Sam Sam. But this is like, this is the genius of it. It's like, this reminds me of, you know how. How do you do. This is what I'm not really surprised about. It's how you do one things, how you do everything. So it's all the little things that actually, that's where this here is cultural leadership. And I think it's almost reminds me of, you know, when Steve Jobs did wanted the inside of the iPhone to be a certain colour. And people are like, mate, it's the inside of the fucking phone. Like, who cares? And I was going to see it was like, you need to make it this way. And it goes, the point of that is to show that it's, that's how the leadership. And I think the characters like, no, I never thought of that. I just thought that's a sick design. But the fact there's characters is like, it shows the minutia of your detail and that. Yeah, so they can't. So I worked with, as an amazing illustrator called Ron Spakova. And Ron Spakova, who's actually also a friend of mine, but she has got lots of different styles. But one of her styles is these amazing banquet scenes. And when you see the banquet scenes, you just basically want to be there part of doing with them. So she was the obvious. When we did the Brown strategy, she was the obvious person to go to. But interestingly, just going back to the kind of company culture and sort of where that all started is, you know, like, I feel still like the world of drinks and non-collect drinks, in particular, like, still talks from a brand point of view very much in sort of white hetero way. Would you do more of that? So that everywhere, yeah, just everyone at all representation, the way that speaks language that's used still feels like very white and very hetero still in, in that, well, it hasn't. So it's not reflective of like London sort of life in many ways. And I'm talking about the brand, not necessarily as a team. It's something that was really on my mind, and I saw a lot of the images when I was doing a lot of like competitor deep dives, and I guess I was like, I feel like, you know, this isn't going to talk to everybody. And I feel like this needs to be. Sorry, sorry, sorry. As in your competitors, weren't speaking to everyone? Yeah, I felt like, I feel like I actually could work harder to actually sort of have different representations within the brand itself. And actually, when we did the characters, anyone you were looking at specifically or. No, I think it's just. John, I think every. Okay, yeah, just a gem. Like, if you look at the language and the imagery and the photography use, it still feels very much well. And anyway, so when we built the characters, actually brief words, we want to have different sexes, different ages, different races, different sizes, different genders, et cetera. So if you look at our characters as 21, that there's representations of every single person and the idea is that everyone should be able to look at it and be like, that person's like me or someone that I know is like that person. And so the kind of wider world is like really sort of kooky and sort of mad, but also has all these different kind of representations in it that hopefully people can relate to. And that kind of, again, is quite reflective of what we as a brand want, you know, the idea behind the TVO is not to create division. Like, this is not an alcoholic drink, this is an alcoholic drink. You can drink the TVO with booze. Like, it's one and four of our customers drinking with alcohol, right? Yeah, I can imagine it being unreal. It's a tip of what I'm with it, but I mean anything, but I guess the point is is that the dream I had it with Rocky Sainte, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, that was unreal. That was actually fucking delicious. I don't know that's still on there, but it was unreal. I guess the dream is that, you know, the dream isn't that, you know, TVO is just an alcoholic drink on the on the dinner table. The dream is that it's on the table. Everyone's drinking it. Some people are popping it in a groany. Some people are drinking it in our signature with soda. Some people are putting a bit in their tequila soda, but no one cares because everyone has united around this brand that, you know, they feel proud to drink. And so all that division that you normally see in the category isn't there. What have been the, like, obstacles with that? Because I think it's really interesting, it takes consumers and a flight of imagination. I think you're picking the harder route, which is very admirable to say, we're now called free brand, but we're not. I'm not in a position ourselves like this. Mark was saying this morning at LA Brewery, the Kombucha brand. Yeah. He was saying we don't want to fucking bang you yet. So good. We don't want to be a Kombucha brand, because we're trying to kind of tap into the alternative wine occasion. I don't know if you've seen it, they've got it in the champagne bottles. It's unreal. Yeah, yes. That's my favourite. No, I'll kind of, she's, you know, Louise, she's, I, I mean, it's fake and I linked in, but that drink with that, the rhubarb one. It's so delicious. She's a mate. I've got a lot of time for us. She's actually around this way, actually, but the, but what he was saying is, is we know it's the right path to take, because it's like, we want to, we don't want to be thought of as Kombucha. We want to thought as a swatching wine alternative, a bit like you plunking that down the table and say, look, it's party time. Even though it's not fucking, we're not boozing. What have been the challenges of, again, pushing against that tension where, whether it's speaking to a buyer, because Mark was saying, you speak to a buyer, go, look, we're not Kombucha. We're alcohol-free wine alternative. And then the buyer goes, well, I'm not that buyer going to speak. You know, they're, they're taking the harder route. It comes with obstacles. That's why it's the harder route. I mean, I think my arms are probably different from Sam's. Yeah. And if I sort of, because yours, yours is more, for me, for the drinks point of view. But yeah, I think there's been a few kind of key things. I think, first of all, there's an immediate knee jerk, I think, when we just close the big investment round. And there's sometimes an immediate knee jerk from people being, oh, but why aren't you? If you try to be everything, you're nothing. I'm very, very aware with my brand hat on that that is not what we want to be. So our strategy is always to be a non-alcoholic drink for the first, the second, the third touch. And then we don't, what do you mean by the first? So the first, so if you go to our website, we're like, it's all like we're a non-alcoholic apparently. If you go to our Instagram, it is. But once someone's brought into our product, they'll get a newsletter on the third touch, which says, by the way, have you tried this in Boots? And so people have already, sorry, in Boots. I'm sorry, I was thinking about me. No, no, I said, have you put some cream and, and repellent it? Have you put back a bottle on the TV? We don't, we don't want to confuse people by, like, immediately bombarding them with loads of messages. The idea is they buy into it, they drink it's an alcoholic drink, and then they discover once they're really putting into how delicious and powerful it is as a liquid, that they can also use it in Boots, and that's how we get around it, like, whatever time it is. So it's good for all like, restaurants as well, like, exactly. Yeah, exactly. We always go into like a Batibo soda, and then just slowly introduce them to some of our alcoholic serves. Yes, exactly. And it's incredible, like, when some of these restaurants are putting together, like, really delicious, complex alcoholic drinks with Batibo. Yeah. And the rate of cells, better. Well, I think it's amazing. I think it's a sounds point in a random rate of cell, like, I think, yeah, the elephant in the room always with non-alcoholic drinks is that the rate of cell will always be lower than it is for alcoholic counterparts, right? So, I think when we were raising investment, one of the big challenges was, oh, but, you know, still, you two percent of the whole market is an alcoholic. Yes, there's lots of, sort of, hyper around how non-alcoholic, you know, is growing, but the rate of cells is still much slower. And I think what interests people and what we really believe about Batibo is that it can be drunk in all these different ways. It's relevant in all these different occasions. And I pop it in a tequila soda whenever, like, every weekend, because it's so delicious. Yeah. And I think what that is, it's just like, I don't know, it's the umami. I'm not, I'm not some sort of flavoured donny here, but I know it's like, is that a umami where it's like that kind of? I don't know what it is. What is it? What is it? It makes it so delicious sounds. Something like, I don't know. I don't know. I honestly like, and also, how did you, in your head, like, you talked about this kind of culture as, not cultureism. What's it called? Sculpturing. Yeah, like, how did you sculpture the pairings for this drink in your head, like, so I mean, I think like, I think, like, in cooking, like, chefs are generally like pairing, like, what does it sort of salt with, like, fat and acid, because it's yeah. Um, and whereas, whereas, like, it was like in drinks, like, you're generally sort of balancing that sweet with, um, acidity and bitterness. Yeah. So, anyway, your, your bitterness can come from anything. Like, in, in, in drink maker, it could be angasture or any other sort of cocktail bitters. It could be in a peritif or in a maro. Um, the sweetness can come from anything from honey to sugar to, like, jam, you know, whatever you want, like, a look here. And the acidity can be anything from citrus to, um, any other kind of acid or vinegar. So there was, like, that, that sort of, that sort of base existed anyway. And, and I guess, like, thinking about the flavour, like, I always wanted it to be, like, an aperitif inspired drink. And, uh, I mean, it was just playing around with anything. I mean, I, I mean, I, I, I, I, I kind of decided on it on it being vinegar and honey. Um, just because of the sort of self-preserving quality. How do you get all the delicious, because, like, when I drink the tea, though, it's like, it's like, there's so many different parts of the tastes. How did you, I mean, that was, I mean, that was, that was just, like, trial and error. Like, my, my wife and I just had, I mean, hundreds of jars in our, you know, in our, in our sort of, in our home, for months, we've, like, we had some at different temperatures. We had some, I mean, like, literally ever outplace, like, staying, like, vinegar and the dannicles. It was, it was, it was. So when you got this brief, kind of, just trying to work this back, because you got this brief saying we want this, um, kind of unique drink that's not boozy. Yeah. What were the other, um, not, like, brand names, but what were some of the other concoctions on the cutting room floor, like, that didn't make it? Well, I mean, was it always the vinegar honey? It was, it was, I mean, because, like, because, like, I wanted that sort of, you know, having to make something every time, it's sort of time-consuming and like, you know, you'd like, you would have some kind of shelf, like, but I didn't know how much. Um, but I mean, I thought, like, like, like, for that particular brief, it was always going to be vinegar and honey. I mean, like, it could have been, like, a fermented version, you know, like, when we, when I was sort of trying it out, we, you know, we tried, preventing it. We tried using distillates and, and the best, the best taste by far was just, and, and also, like, also, flavourings, right? Because, like, we kind of, you kind of designed it, but the whole kind of tasting, you tried it out and realised it just can't get back with flavourings. I paid, like, you know, and annoying amount of money to various consultants to sort of, you know, I was like, I made a drink, like, I want to manufacture it, you know, my back was not manufacturing how, how do I do this? And every single person was like, flavourings. And I was like, no, like, that's you pushing against attention. I mean, I mean, you know, I actually did end up buying myself a micro-prepare and some scales that I measured down to 0.001 of a gram and thought that, I'll tell you everybody's obviously, you know, there's obviously a reason why I was saying this. And just did, like, just sort of started layering flavours on top of our base and, you know, it was fine, but you would never get that sort of flavour journey that you do with real ingredients. And, you know, one side sort of made that decision. I don't have to figure out where to do it, how to do it. And, yeah. And like, you know, we do bang on about, like, no flavourings, you know, that side of it and the craft a lot. And, you know, I think people do understand how different that makes a taste experience. So, I always wang on about that kind of metaphor of, you know, you buy chicken stock in the supermarket and it's delicious and it's fine. But if you make it overnight with herbs in it and it sits in your slow cooker like that taste experience of that chicken stock is going to be a completely different taste experience. And that's the way that I think about Bativo when I tried to explain it to people is, you know, Sam tried it with flavourings, but that's the chicken stock in the supermarket with the homemade homemade. I also think, I also think doing the hard, the hard is an unfair advantage because if you pick something that's really hard, it's, it automatically means when 10 other people try it, then nine of them will fuck it off because it's hard. So, I think I think there's something in there's definitely something picking the harder route and everything. I want to talk about Ollie Lloyd as he's an investor isn't he? Yeah, yeah, that's making sure that's still still. Yeah, he's been on the spot cast and he's great. He's a legend, legend, legend. We love, we love, we love. So say, what do we do? We went to that, well, we haven't for lunch at that paradise restaurant. You know, in Soho paradise because his wife Sri Lankan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The dude was fucking banging on real. Yeah, yeah, he's been so helpful. But he, what one thing he talks about the podcast because he's super interesting guys, he's got all the brand stuff. Obviously, um, and but he talks about his obsession with art and history of art. I don't know if he's ever talked to you about this, but he, he, he did a history of art degree, I think, where he went really deep into art. And I was like, what's the advantage of having. And he loves painting, and I was like, what's the advantage of painting and having that kind of going to art galleries, like how does that give you an advantage when you, when you go and try and sell something at a bar or receive market shelf. And he talked about having this eye, this is this, this kind of lucid kind of laser eye to just to spot things. And when I'm looking at this, the illustration and the art on the bottle. And, um, we're going to get into that. But this, this, um, he has this thing called the knock knock test. And he said, you learn at Unilever, it's like, when a brand knocks on the door, like, what's the, what's the thing going to, what's, what's going to say. And I'd love to know, like, you've got this kind of back and alia kind of fun thing going on the bottom, like a party kind of vibe. What, if we were to kind of bring that alive, like, what would be the Bativo, like, perfect part of you to pan and parachute consumer and where is it? What does it look like? What are the smells? What are the colors? Like, I mean, when we, when we talk about the brand vibe and that kind of world, it's, it's quite, it's very theatrical. I think that's kind of one of the things that we really wanted to kind of convey, hence kind of the style of it and hence, like the big yellow piano and sampling, hence, you know, whatever we do, the language we use. So we, you know, we have things like the yellow, we use a lot of language of like setting the stage or, or the next act is like, you know, going for next act with Bativo. Why would that come from, like, that theatrical? Well, what, what was all about developing a tone of voice that feels really in line with it? So you'll notice that, like, you know, for example, recently we've changed it from, it was slow-sipping botanicals when it first, when the rebrand first kicked in, which was a year and a half ago. And that was on purpose because Sam, myself didn't want to kind of pigeonhole, but either into something, but then we realized that actually slow-sipping and this kind of mad theatrical world that we created, there was a sort of disconnect. So now it's called the big sipping botanical aperitivo, and the idea is that we just really focused in on developing what that tone of voice was as up from a brand. And if it was as hedonistic pleasure seeking tone of voice, then that needs to be reflected in like, you know, in everything. And so that's when we landed on this tone of voice that feels very theatrical and sort of over the top and sort of performative in many ways. And the idea is it kind of brings you on this journey and you're kind of escaping into this, like, delicious world of aperitivo. Yes. Now I just, what I love is this William Chase guided Tyrells, and he sold Chase this theory onto Diaggio, and this is what has every conversation I have, that he basically, there's no rules to build a brand. There's obviously, like, blueprints and shit, but there are absolutely no rules. And that's what even I'm talking about the same thing to, like, kind of, to every single person I'm having. It's a completely different conversation because there's no way to do it. And obviously this whole, like, you know, we're talking about kind of the lavish parties, but then this kind of thinking almost like a theater. And like, thinking of, like, setting the stage, it all just makes, and that's kind of the kind of this co-rucing event on the, on the, on the bottle. It's just so interesting. But yeah, what would, what would be the Bativo party if you were to kind of bring that, bring that alive? And the reason I asked this, you know, I asked Trip if, um, let's go, and it's kind of a very brandy question, but it's like, if your brand was a hotel, what would it look like? And it just brings the brand alive. I'm like, if this party was an actual fucking thing that we're going to do tonight, where would it be? What country? How does it look? We just didn't see what you're, what do you've got a different one from me? Cause I've, yeah, you go first, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I've been a lot of that thinking about it since I get a kid on the table. I think I've been, make it viral. Make it viral. Yeah, I think it'd be sort of, I think it's a picture instead of like jazz, that bar, like, those of live instruments. Oh, I guess. You know, people from every walks of life, sort of, almost of smoky, hazy bar. Oh, yes. And I think, yeah, that's, that's kind of what I'm picturing. Make that's really good because that's very clear to where I was going as well. But which we talk about a lot because it is, you know, we talk about when we do brand, when we're going to do brand events, what that would look like. And I think, again, we always talk about what we aren't compared to everyone else. And so another one that we talk about a lot is, like, we're actually quite urban in terms of the setting of the TV. So yes, it's obviously made in Lanark Farm, but in terms of the world, and like, where, like, you know, a lot of other brands and our category are all about how throughout the outdoors or about the mountains or about gardens. And actually, when we think about the kind of party world, which we TV setting, it's probably house parties. It's like, jazz, like you said, like. It's like London, it's not, it's not the country side is London. And so I think that that is the kind of key thing for us. Hence, why we wanted to have these characters that represent every walk of life because that's what London's about for us. So it is, you know, it's made in Hertfordshire, but it's got a spirit of London. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The interesting nuances. And I said, there's no rules. Again, it's just kind of links to what the book are reading the seven basic plots. And it's basically says it's kind of these principles of storytelling. And I picked up on it when you say, like, we think like a theatre and almost going into it. Like, that is the kind of setting the stage, the, you know, all those little things. Tell that story for the consumer so that when they end up, you know, I suppose the kind of the combination of this is the piano at say taste of London. It is a theatrical vibe. Are you guys like into theatre and jazz? Like, is that, like, where did that? You probably are a bit more than me. Wow, I mean, I don't have time to be that coser. I am not into theatre, I'd go to theatre. I do like jazz. What are you into? I love theatricalness of the theatre, but I, my attention span is not long enough to go to theatre. I think my partner loves it. And I sort of often leave it half time because I'm. So I find it so I can't sit there. But I think we probably have similar energies in that sense, like, you know, you're a bit more patient than me, so you probably do really. I mean, I've got, I mean, I've got two kids, I've nipped out of the theatre months. Nipped out of the theatre and get some milk on the way back. You've got a paper baby tip, I have a thing for you. It's like 300 quid. But was that intentional in the brand play, you know? Yeah, yeah, as an theatricalness for what? It was intentional in terms of tone of voice. Like, how do we make it feel like really energetic, really big? Like, a kind of theatrical world that entertains people. But also that people want to be part of, they can see themselves in. Like, drinks are, they're an experience, right? And actually, the brand needs to be an experience as well. And I always bang on about this, but I think one of the challenges with a non-alcoholic category in particular is that what makes a great brand are stories, right? And it's quite hard in a category that was born so recently. And which has that kind of lack of maker stories. It's quite hard to tell authentic stories. So I think what really differentiates me in my mind, and one of the reasons why I was drawn to it so much when I stumbled upon it, was that there's so many stories in it. There's Sam who makes it on Lanark Farm, there's a place. You know, there's a person behind it. There's a process where it takes a year to make. You know, you can actually take people to the farm where it's made. And we can show them. And then it's got, you know, it's got a pound of that, is a maker, but also a founder who's a real head in this. And there's so many stories around it, which other brands lack currently, I think, in the category because it's so new. Yeah, I was thinking like, you know, like the other end of the spectrum, which is like the ultimate sort of craft product is like wine. Like, that's like a globally followed, loved drink. And I was thinking about it like, you know, like, in order to make wine, you've got to have this incredible understanding of like, process and technique from like growing your vines. So like picking the grapes is the right time, pressing them, fermenting them, and then deciding on whether you want to age them in oak, or stainless steel, or clay. And I mean, it's such a process. People love the nuances of wine. Like, oh, you're bang on about the sort of the terroir, or how long grapes you-- Terroir is like the ground. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Nice wine, you were saying it, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like what I'm saying is like, imagine a world where wine was made with flavorings. Can you imagine people sitting around the table and discussing the different levels of flavoring or tannins that have been put into the drink? I think that's kind of what I meant was that like, what makes people care emotionally about brands? I guess it's a better way of putting it. Is stories or things that they can get behind, right? And I think, yes, you can drink something, but if there's not a story you can attach to tell to you, whether that's how it's made, or the brand, world, or the character in it, then people don't care about it. It's not-- So they'll kind of jump between different brands and sort of be quite flippant as to what they're engaging with. Well, and I think within the Nile Clinic, actually, because it's often made in fragrance house, or it's quite new, people don't have that emotional attachment to it. And it's the stories that creates that attachment. The story thing's really interesting. It's like the best story wins. It's this really interesting book. And we believe what we want to believe, right? So this-- I was just talking about this with the day. So like, you know when you do a workout and you feel fucked, and like you've got tar, like not tar on your mouth, but like, you know that feeling when you're just like, I've just absolutely ruined, like, say 5K, like, PB, right? You feel like that, and it's okay to feel like that, because the story you're telling yourself is that I've just pushed myself super, super hard. And like, I'm actually enjoying this feeling, so I've pushed myself super, super hard. That feeling when like, you're sweating and all that shit. If that was to happen to us right now, we'd be like, what the fuck? And it's because we haven't got the story wrapped around it. And it's all the context and the framing and the storytelling. And I think it's really interesting with the space you're playing in, like, in terms of the framing and the storytelling. And with the illustration, I was talking to this about, this is why I think it's interesting with what Ollie said, is I was obsessed with, I can't, I'll have to take this out, but I decided to podcast with the art cell pizza. And I had to fuck it, they didn't want it going live for fucking so long. But we're talking about illustration and food and drink. Like, why is it illustration so inextricably into time with food and drink? Like, you see, like, noble rock, you know, the wine restaurant loads of illustration, Pringles illustration, like, I mean, there's a myriad of different, like, food and drink, there's illustration art, it's linked to that. And I started looking into it loads. I was like, why the fuck, why is these two things linked together? And Stephen Pinko's like the, he's like an evolutionary fucking guy, and whatever. And he talks about this, the Cheesecake Principle. Right. Basically, what the Cheesecake Principle is, strawberry Cheesecake Principle is, we, like, from an evolutionary perspective, we became adaptive to looking for food which is, like, bright in colours, and kind of primes our taste buds. So it was berries and stuff to be like, this is going to help us survive from a really basic human level. And he basically says that illustration art and food and music does the same thing. It's basically priming our senses, but this is going to be, this is a good thing. This is a good thing, this is going to help us be better. And then from a brand perspective, like, the illustration is a promise. And I think that that promise is like, this is going to taste delicious, this is going to taste unusual. And I think it's really interesting how brands can do that through illustration. Yeah, yeah. And then the drink delivers that promise. And, yeah, I just think what you guys have done with that bottle is just, is that strawberry Cheesecake Principle is like that, that, like, getting people. I love that, I love that. priming people for what's about to be. almost the Anetha sister sat here being like, "Oh my God, we've just done a 5k, but we haven't." It's the, like, "Oh, this is going to be a delicious experience." No, I like that. What was the, with the characters? What was, like, how did you come up with a 21? Specifically. So, actually, so, there was a few characters that Rose had used in her other artwork that I sort of, we were like, "We love those ones, we love the vibe." And then we sat together and wanted to, as I said, create characters that represented, like, yeah, the different London and what it is today in 2023, which is when it was made. So, you know, we wanted to have, you know, an older person who was really vibrant and youthful. And about two of them, so there's, like, there's a character in there, which is my favourite one is actually called Daisy. And it's an old lady who's just, like, living her best life, and she's sitting on a chair. It's on the main world. Yeah, yeah. She was just like drinking glass of wine, and she's just, like, doesn't give a shit, and she's just, like, living her best life. And she's not, like, this old lady that's normally represented in the media, is grey-haired and boring. She's, like, vibrant and, you know, hilarious. And so, you can see that she's having a laugh. We've got, and she's actually having a laugh with, that's actually Rupert, this is named after your dad. This could be my mum's death. Minus to my mum's death. There's a guy in a wheelchair, and they're basically having a massive chinwag, and they're just having a laugh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're just trying to, you know, people are sort of presented a certain way in culture, and it was taking that and flipping on its head. You know, like, when I'm 60, I'm not going to be an old lady with a walking stick. I'm going to be that lady. So, how do we start representing people as they actually are in 2023? So, yeah, it was like that, and we had a pregnant lady, and again, she's called in the world, she's called Cass. She's actually named after Cass, who's my friend, who's the founder of Propocon. And she's pregnant, but the point, and she's called at the CEO in, like, the brand world. And the idea is that, you know, she's a pregnant woman in the brand world, but she's a boss. I've never seen someone like, you basically created your own little play. Like, the actual play, not in terms of this one. I've never really spoken to someone who's gone into that level of debt. Yeah, yeah, that's so much debt. Debt, but like, yeah, it makes sense now, like, why are you having this kind of. Well, we didn't want the pregnant lady to be, the pregnant lady wanted her to be the boss of the CEO of a company, because that's not how normally pregnant people are portrayed, so that's her character. The other thing, I think I've read somewhere on LinkedIn that you said that you do these consumer survey things. I think they're not clinicals, consumer survey things. But like, because I think we were talking about how your main consumer is kind of East London 2535. I think that's what you wrote. But like, how are you, that's what people perceive, or I don't know what the point was. But how do you. So like, well, how are you going to get. This is your party with the various characters. That's what my champagne, like Coca-pop out of this goes big. How you get this, and I know it's London-centric now, but to build a house out of Brown, it needs to be work outside London and all in different cities. Like, how are you, one, keeping the soul of this, yeah, back in Alia and party, 0.1, 0.2 is how are you using the customer surveys to kind of unlock more customer segments? And then, how do you go? Yeah, I mean, I mean, I mean, I really believe in going out and talking to consumers and finding out who they are. And actually, what I wrote about in LinkedIn was sort of the opposite, which was people assume, I think, that are. Is that what you said sort of? Yeah, well, as in people assume that our consumer is like, there's 25 to, like, 40-year-old London consumer. And actually, when we kind of do lots of work at a kind of trying to understand who they are, those are who. Those are the people that are drinking us out in restaurants, not in bars, that's true. But when you look at our Shopify data, it's actually, like, 55 plus, mostly sort of women that are drinking like Bativo in the home, which is totally not what you'd expect from the way the brand presents, and the way it talks. And for me, that's because we've perhaps never done a segmentation in terms of, like, age. probe on it, because, you know, why the old person in our world isn't like a classic old person. We've made it all around attitudinal. It's like people who love life, people who are pleasure seekers, people who love how things are made, people who are called to be curious. And that's not an age thing, that's a mindset. Yeah, it's the whole thing of, like, psychographics versus demographics. Exactly, and some people look at demographics. I think it's now more than ever, and I was thinking to say, they don't really see old people as much anymore. As I'm like, you know, before someone hits 16, they're like, "Look, all of us now," because of, like, people carrying more about their health. As you said, in when you're 60, you're not going to be, kind of, on a walking street. No, no one is. No one is. The way in the media, like the media portrays it's like, that older demographic is kind of neglected by challenger brands. We obsess over how do we target Gen Z on TikTok. Well, look up, mate, because the older consumer has way more money. They've got more time to spend and look at pleasurable things. But I think people look at the demographic. Through a demographic lens, we need to be focused on the next generation, Gen Z. Whereas if you look at through a psychographic lens, which basically means, you know, 20-year-olds, six-year-old and seven-year-old. They're very similar if they're willing to, like, at Metopia, for example, as we can. The meat festival. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, you'll get a whole smogsable of different age groups. But they're all the same psychographics. They can actually speak the same. Because I think, when you just look at it through a demographic lens, you start just alienating massive customers, i.e. your 55-year-old. Yeah, 100%. Like, you know, I just feel like when people start being like, we are actually for a 25-year-old person. So, you know, I feel like I'm 20, and I'm 14. You know, like, so if someone was to put me in a box and be like, this is what a 40-year-old's like, who's a mom too? You know, I definitely would not be talking to you, as I definitely wouldn't connect with it, right? Because that's not, you know, I've done those segmentation pieces. When I was, you know, on the agency's side, I saw how people were put in boxes by brands. And I know for sure that I would never have related to any of them. What is the other kind of bollocks you found at agencies that you just don't think is right? And then point one, point two is, what do you think is actually really valuable? I mean, I think, like, I worked in the strategy and sort of research part of it. And I think the one, like, I think understanding, like, attitudinal elements and stuff is really, really important. And I'm understanding how people see your brands and the impressions they get when they see a straightaway. That's something you can only do if you're going to strange than being like, what are you thinking of? What are your impressions? Like, where it doesn't, the bit that I sort of didn't think agency, what it doesn't work is when you're asking everyday consumers to, like, try and evolve a brand creatively. Like, like, it's stifled creativity. So there was so many, like, big brands who've come up, you know, when agency would come up with an amazing ad and they'd go and talk to consumers about it. They would go and talk to them and they'd be like, oh, I don't like that guy's wearing or like, oh, that makes you feel a bit weird. And they were like, kill an amazing creative ad because everyday consumer was, like, trying to tweak it with their creative knowledge. And it's like, no, you like to mass market kind of consumers. Yeah, and you'd be like, leave that stuff to geniuses. There's a reason why creative directs in that agency is our genius. You know, are creating amazing content, it's because they think in a different way from jobless. Curse of averages, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. So that's the biggest thing is, you know, just trust agencies that they are some amazing minds in those places and don't, don't ask people to. Yeah, it's one of those, like, weird things that's both wrong and right, isn't it? It's like, you need to speak to your core consumers, because if you don't, you don't want to know what you're creating. But then if you speak to too many consumers, you get the curse of average where Joe blog says, I don't like that yellow. That gorgeous yellow top. But if you speak to the kind of the archetypal characters that are on this party, they're going to give you the right feedback. And I think it's one of those things that's wrong and right. If you don't speak to your consumers and you're just like, I'm doing it my way, then that's just kind of stupid. Yeah, you just speak to them to understand who they are and like their music records are brand, but you shouldn't speak to them to develop, like, creative for your, you know, for it, I don't think. Because I think that magic can only come from people who are not like me, people who actually are creative directors, who have been like hooning their craft for like 20 years, 10 years, five years. What have been some of the really hard days for you, Sam, like, in terms of just getting, well, even with the other business as well, like, getting, I think there's an element of grit and kind of just, yeah, grit is the word to get. The ball moving or the snowball rolling to remain in those early days, I mean, I guess like just sort of having that sort of obsession of like, trying to make this work and going against the advice we were getting. And then it was like, okay, if you're going to do that, how, how are you going to do that? And, you know, we ended up having to convert a milking parlor into our now, you know, and like again, milking parlor. Yeah, so like cows get milk. Where cows get milk, yeah. That's jokes. Yeah. You call a milking parlor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's a rich person. Yeah, milking parlor. The milking parlor. That's hilarious. I mean, it was just sort of, it was just sort of, I didn't know anything about manufacturing or like, how to build a production on anything. And it was sort of, it was just sort of this, like, relentless belief that I needed to put the table in a bottle and start selling it. That, you know, man, I had to put my little, like, builders hat on all, like, just research cap on. I mean, I, thankfully for me, I actually have a, my, my father-in-law is a, he's a, I mean, he's a, he has a sort of engineering brain. And he, you know, whether it's sort of making pastry at home or curing bacon under the stairs, like, you just will figure out how to do anything. So I sort of had him as my sort of sidekick. And what were some of the things he kind of, how did he help shape the production? Well, I think it was just, just, you know, just trying to work out the best production flow. Yeah. I mean, I have to say, if we, if I knew now what I needed to do, then I probably wouldn't have moved into the milking parlor. Just because. Look, Paulie's got the conjures up, like, really romantic. I know, I imagine we could put some ladies in there. And this sort of, like, buckets, like, like milking parlor into my production line. It's, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I mean, it isn't like that. I mean, like, now I know, like, some ceiling high is everything in production. And, like, you know, our ceiling high is quite low. So we've had to, like, buy tanks. They're quite low and waste-based. Keep what could have been valuable floor space. But, I mean, it is, it is just sort of, it's just that, like, just. I mean, in the early days, it was sort of trial and error. I mean, some of the darker days were, I mean, some of my darker days have always been production related. Like, you know, there are so many things that can go wrong. And, like, with my sort of paranoid hat on not having any data around, like, shelf life, I mean, I was always thinking a bottle's just going to pop open and explode, but I was like. Well, so was that the biggest ball late was the shelf life? That was, I mean, that's the kind of. Well, no, but there wasn't any ball late because it turned out to be really long. Well, no, exactly. Like, I think it's really long, but more, more, more, more just like in my head. I'm just sort of thinking. Yes. I think it's going to explode, like, and every batch I sort of do myself shelf life trust, and just sort of hope the best. And then finally, we hit six months, and then we hit 12 months, and then we hit 18 months. So it was in this suit, yeah. It was like, thinking, oh, it's going to. No, no, it's like, oh! I was waiting on the custom room box, like, oh! It's probably like, you know, it's probably like the biggest fear for anyone who works in production is like, you know, and like, if one bottle goes. Every single bottle from that batch is going to go. But like, the single darkest day was for sure. Batch three. Which one? 10-2-batch three. 10-2-batch three. It was. It was something that I'm making. Making Mativo is like. Especially in the early days is like, laborious. Like, I mentioned the set honey that we had to get out and put it into our tanks. And, that alone was like, like, tough. And, you know, we. You know, we have to wait for. And in those days, we sort of waited some six to eight weeks for our fusions to be ready. And, you know, everything was just so manual. And, you know. The batch happened. We blended it. It was tasting great. You know, we brought the bottle in, you know, the bottle's in to sort of bottle it. And. Started bottling it, which again, like, was sort of quite basically equipment, was like long. And then finally, sort of, you know, you're looking at eight weeks later. I put the final box in. You know, we sort of shift our bottles in the production room on these lots of grey boxes with wheels. I put it in this little grey box. Off to go and be packed into the bottle. And, you know, I just saw just a little bit of, like, amber glass. On. And the glass. And then, like, brown, Mativo. Okay, yeah. Is that brown? Yeah, it's like. Oh, yeah, sorry, yeah. Yeah. Amber. Amber. Yeah. Amber and my milking partner. Yeah. But yeah, just like. I imagine, like, like, scones and tea in this milking fella. Do I? It's probably rain. It's like, there's not even a seat. Yeah, I think the name of sound makes it sound super like. Yeah, romantic. It's quite a hostile environment. There's no. There's no, there's no. It's very sterile in there. It's like, you know, white walls, bright lights. No seats. But yeah, I found this, like, I sort of. I saw this bit of, like, amber glass, the bottom of this box. And, like, my heart just sounded like. Don't be glass. And. So, probably the end, I was like. And how many of these. How many bottles did you make? We made, like, we made 2,000 bottles. Oh, fuck. Yeah. Which was, like, a lot of money. And, like, more than anything. It's, like, a lot of effort and time. Like, it's sort of. The whole process then was, like, a nightmare. And. At the time when he was, like, hand-waxing, hand-labeling. All that stuff. Hand-waxing, everything. It was like. No. I mean. Well, I think it was one helping me do that a bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I had Rupert, who was a man with many hats. And, yeah, and. And, sort of status bit of glass for a long time. And eventually decided that we had to throw. Throw the badge away. And then, unpeel all the wax, throw it down the drain. And it was just, like, grit. It was just a bad day. Yeah, I think it's really interesting, because we've kind of talked a lot about the brand hat. And I think we can. But there's also, again, the. What is timeless? Everyone asks what. Everyone asks what's on trend, where's it moving? It's like, I don't want. The reason innocence still going around is because the product was fucking banging. Like, the founder of innocence said, "People talk about being different." And I even did a talk about saying, "Don't do a talk about being different. Don't better." Everyone waxed his little bit about "We're better, probiotic." But he was basically like, "You know, you have to be right." So the product has to be better and different. The marketing has to be better and different. Everything has to be better and different. He's basically like, "Product is better." Marketing is different. That's what they did at Innocent. And he actually said that everyone sees Innocent a bit like, "You know, you've got the yellow hats on there." Like Innocent. Yeah, yeah. They all see as it's this kind of marketing, which they did an amazing well. But he goes, "Why are you actually boil it down?" It was the product. And the product is your best marketing, your liquid is your. Yeah. What was it? Liquid is your. I think, you know, just like word of mouth thing is very like. I mean, that's a huge thing for us, because people. Like, again, you know, people always say, "Hand of fans." But actually, for me, it's like, people get obsessed with it. Just like, "I am." Like, you know, it's not a product that people are like, "Oh, yeah, that's right." People either are like, "I don't get it." Or they're like, "But I fucking love this." And that is because the liquid, not because of the brown. Yeah, so that's what I. Because it's almost this kind of. I'm just seeing this. I've got this image in my head of you in this kind of cow shed flash parlance with that relentless kind of. Almost like an Elon Musk, almost like that kind of just drive to just no matter what happens, this is going to work. Like, taught me through those. Because I think the brands that really work, you have to have this obsession to the point of kind of just insanity. It's, you know, genius and insanity are kind of two sides of the same coin. We're like, "This is going to work." Like, "How did you keep. " And I suppose I'm asking the selflessly with the podcast. Like, "Trying to get the podcast to grow is fucking, like, long as fuck sometimes." And it's like, "How do you just keep in that?" Do you know what I mean? I mean, it's just belief, isn't it? It's just like. You know, even though I've like blows like bass three, it's just like. It doesn't matter how big so far. You're like, "Oh, goal's still the same." And you just keep hammering away. And I think. If there's one compliment I'll give myself. When it comes to like. Sort of finishing a task or a job like, "I have stamina." And like, "I will just keep that." And like, probably again, learn that in kitchens. And then learn to events where you just. You'd work for. Get back up. Hours and hours, and you just keep playing away. Because, like, your goal is. Where our goal is just to sell more bottles and. Get more. Sam is. Sam is an absolute workhorse. I have to. You know, there's like. There's never. You know, when you have co-founders, you know, people always tell. There's one co-founder's not working as hard as the other. No doubt in my mind. There's no doubt in my mind ever that Sam is working. Like, one thousand times he should be working. You know, he's just a workhorse. There's this. I've been. Been this thing by Daniel Coderman, which is. It's easier to spot other people's mistakes than it is our own. I think it's interesting. Like, what mistakes you spot in other people that you actually do yourself. It's quite a. Quite a deep question that. Well, what do you mean? I'm from a, like, a company or a personal. Never. Any perspective, any perspective, I'm trying to think like. Yeah. I mean, I see a lot of mistakes in myself to be honest. I think, like, my. Inpatients is definitely one of them. I think, like, you know. We always, you know, what. It's quite easy for me to get bored of something and move on to something. And actually, the kind of key thing in marketing or that whole world is. Even if you've. You're sick of it. You're consuming probably hasn't even heard about it yet. And so that, for me, is kind of this thing of like. We want to be really single minded. We're going to be really sticky. We want to stand for one thing. But I'm constantly sort of distracted by, like, the shiny lights. Oh, let's do this. Well, let's try that. And actually, the hardest thing. How do you do that? Because I've got the same thing right now. Because I'm potentially doing other podcasts. Like, another podcast. I'll say that after this. And I'm just thinking, is this a distraction? Like, I'm like, oh, there's some new shiny toys, baby. Like, we'll have a little kid who toys our eyes. Well, to be honest, it's had to be a real, conscious thing. So we actually have gone the other way. We've gone like, we're just going to release like one product. We're going to make it iconic. We're going to just hand him the yellow. We're going to hand him our characters. We're going to make the bottle like the bottle iconic. And by being super self-aware, that I am distracted easily. I've just sort of doubled down the fact that we're not going to get distracted by lots of different flavours or formats and things like that. We're just going to make it the lighthouse product and every menu. You know, I want people to go into any restaurant that is of a good standard and be like, oh, great, a bit of a soda, you know, because it's- That's what I did at Laura. Yeah. It's quite a cost of me. And I want a leg for a piece of blue meat. That's it. The idea is that like, you know, it's like, you know, when you're travelling on your, like, when you're younger and you see, like, McDonald's. And you're like, oh, great, McDonald's. Yeah. I still got that now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here we go. And it's that kind of feeling of like, I don't, you know, we don't need to have 10 different flavours or 10 different formats. I just wanted to be like, oh, great, they've got a bit of a soda. Yeah, that is that kind of razor sharpness is what is the only antidote, antidote, antidote to this kind of desire to do lots of things. It's just to be really firm. Be like, no, you have to just do one thing. I think also that, yeah, from my perspective, it's just sort of a lot easier, right? There's just like a few of us, like my supply chain is simpler. Yeah. And, you know, we can just sort of just focus on just making it iconic and making it better. And actually, you know, for us, like, where I still get that sort of creative out there, is our limited editions where we're starting to release. I saw that me one, wasn't it? Me? Am I being made on Francois? Made on Francois. I think that you're different. Yeah, you're missing one little bit at the bottom. It was me, wasn't it on the, on the, on the, on the, on the drink? M F. M F. M F. Yeah, so it does, so we basically read the logo to have the characters around the amazing Francois logo. That's the restaurant with the, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a French, it's like an amazing sort of French, sort of bistro, seconds and james. And Sam created like a completely new product and we just did 650 bottles that are now sold out and released them in partnership with them and it's sold in the restaurant and then our website. And we're doing another one in January with another big restaurant. And then we're doing it. Tell me afterwards, yeah. And the idea is like that's how we can show off our innovation equities through those limited editions, which are just one off like completely new products, which will be in our bottle with redesigned labels in partnership with places we really respect. And that will be the creative outlet versus like three different kinds of flavours. Exactly. Because I think like there's obviously a danger to kind of rise your own product by releasing other versions of it. And it's just, it's just for us. Like unless it was a wildly different product for a wildly different occasion. And did you like with your, I'm trying to get into your kind of the artisanal brain? Is so with Maison Francois? With Maison Francois. You get that brief or like, I'm just trying to work out how your brain works Sam in terms of making it as you say doesn't kind of rise this. Has this unique limit of addition? Innovation, what do you like? Yeah. How do the cogs in your brain work to create that? I mean, it was, it was like, it was tanky sort of quite, quite sort of. I mean, it's snails as you do. I mean, you're like snails and vinegar all over your whole milk parlour. I mean, yeah, like Maison Francois is like some amazing French restaurant. So like it had to be like, had to have a sort of French vibe to it. And like, I've always sort of followed drinks, writing menus for people. So like, it's something that I love doing. And like, pasties was like, was the thing that popped into mind. Pasties. Pasties is that sort of thing like Perno. That sort of really alcoholic, really aniseedy. Yeah. French Le Cure. I mean, truth be told, I'm not a fan of. But I love, I do love anisey flavours, but when I sort of slightly more peered back. So for me, I was like, pasties is such an iconic French drink. Kind of try and recreate a version. And so like, we, when I had probably, again, my sort of jars, 50 botanicals, sort of lined up anise, and I sort of argued it, and just sort of started playing around with different versions. But one thing I really wanted to work into the drink, which is that sort of thing that, I feel like, again, I go back to that thing where like, if you give something unusual, I also talk about it. And like, artichoke was a, was a key botanical in that, in that drink. In real artichoke, yeah. And again, like, artichoke is such a iconically French ingredient. Like, you think of a big buttery artichoke. And the flavour profile of artichoke is really sort of earthy, mushroomy, very bitter, you know, well, not used properly. And yeah, so then, so by weaving, we've done the sort of, I guess, sort of, a pair of teeth inspired pasties, which we then ended up selling. And it's the letters I should say. I'll give you a bottle of tea. I'll give you a taste. So take aim. Guys, let's wrap that up. I've absolutely loved that. Just, yeah, as I say, one of the biggest kind of lessons I've taken, and there are no rules. And I think your approach is totally unique. Totally unusual, the artisanal, the hedonism, the depth. And like, like, what I love is, I would never, I put not in the meek, I mean, it's in a positive way, like, pick that up. But the depth from that bottle to all the world storytelling, the fact that the employees have a character that represents them. It's your friends, like, the fact that represents the psychographic versus demographic. It's just fucking genius. And, yeah, I'm excited where you're going to take this. I think it's, it's very big places. So thank you so much. That was. Thank you so, so much, listen to the podcast. I really, really do appreciate it. If you liked that episode, only if you liked it, please do give it five stars. Subscribe, tell all your friends, families, foes, next door but one, cat dog, whatever. Please tell everyone about this podcast. It means the world to me. And I really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of, of challenger food and drink brands. Please do hit me up a LinkedIn search stamp hope. And hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands. Thank you so much.