Bootstrapped and Booming with Kitsch’s Cassandra Morales Thurswell

I feel like everybody's in such a hurry to be successful. When you're bootstrapped, you actually can't. You have to be very slow. You have to be very responsible. Every single opportunity that comes across your plate, you need to make sure that it's profitable. I'm Megan, and this is Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with people with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. Okay, so I think you guys know I really like being in the garden. And running a business, funny enough, it's a lot like gardening. Some seasons are for blooming. Others are for planting seeds, but most of the work, especially early on, it's tending to the soil. It's the foundation. It's what everything is going to grow out of. You got to make sure the roots are strong enough to carry what's coming next. And this is especially true when you're bootstrapping a business, running a business independent of any investors, private equity, VC, you are doing it on your own. You have to be so intentional and careful with all of your choices, and you can't expect a harvest to happen overnight. That's impossible. And look, this can be challenging, especially in a culture that praises growth at all cost. You are in the race to succeed, and success looks like numbers. That's what you're after. But financing your own company forces a very different kind of rhythm. It invites you to choose patience over speed. And guess what? Eventually, with a strong vision and all of that care on the details, oh, that garden will grow. I was writing journal entries from the future as if they were already happening. There's ones where I'm like, you know, we're the fastest growing brand at Target. We weren't in Target yet, and we just found out this last fall that we were a top 25 fastest growing brand in all of beauty. Cassandra Thurswell, I call her Cassie, is the founder and CEO of Kitch, a leading brand in the hair care and beauty industry. But what I discovered during our conversation is that this is a founder who hasn't taken a single dollar of investment capital ever. Cassie has led with tenacity consistency and a deep understanding of what her customers really want. And she created Kitch thinking about your hair care routine from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep. She did it thoughtfully, intentionally, and she saw the products we were already using and said, wait a minute, how can we do that better? And that question, that single question led her to her multi-million dollar valuation. And that's why I genuinely, I can't wait for you to hear her thoughts on starting small, how she got to where she is today, and how we met so, so, so many years before all of this happened. Let's go, Cass. I was just texting with Heather. She texted me last night. She was like, good luck tomorrow. No, I love that. I literally, I said, I need to run, I'm going to go do the interview with Cassie right now. She's like, tell her, I said, hi. By the way, I love, love that you call me Cassie. Oh, I know, sorry. Cassandra. No, no, no, I love it because like, there's such a small handful of people that call me Cassie and it's like my immediate family and Meghan Markle. It's like Meg or M, it's the same thing, it's how we met all those years ago. It's so sweet. I mean, it's, we met in a very sliding glass door moments of our lives, I think, you know. It's true. Yeah. It's true. I was auditioning and your cousin, one of my best friends, Heather, I was like, I just need some style. Yes. I just need my closet to look good. She goes, my cousin Cassie could help. Yeah. She does that. She has great style and you coming to my little house that I was renting and I remember my closet, do you remember that closet door was within the bathroom? Yes. It's like, we'll call it, Meghan, we'll call it a bungalow, we'll be sheep. It was a bungalow and yeah, you had to walk through my bedroom, past my bed, past the shower and the sink which were right there and the toilet and then right across from that was the door that opened into my very small closet to which I said, Cassie, can you help like make this stylish and give me a vibe to which you said yes. Yes. I love this because I feel like this is a perfect example of, you know, all of the things that I said yes to. I was like, yeah, I'm sure I'm a stylist. I will be a stylist. Now I'm a stylist. Yes. I added to my resume of all the things that I aspire to be in life and I had no idea what I was doing but I really enjoyed our time together. It was so fun. Honestly, it was also, and this is presuits for me. This is really early days when I was auditioning and I just remember literally going through things and you think, okay, well, there are a couple staples that you need. This is important because it speaks to, even though it wasn't the thing that you did but when you could add it to your resume, you talk about not having a strategy but always hustling. Yes. And being able to say, okay, well, I don't necessarily know how to do this but I'm going to figure out a way to be good at it. And when you called me and said, I just found the best pair of black patent leather Louboutin wedge flats and they're $200. I remember going, that's as much as I pay. I cannot, you're like, I promise you, you are going to wear, I promise you, do you know what's so funny? Because of course I wore those shoes till the red wore out. I wore those shoes on my final audition for suits that I, when I booked the part. Oh, see, you know what, I'm so intuitive. I wanted to put you in these power suits and little did I know, you know, it was an echo from the future. I had suits in mind but it was just not a physical suit. It was the show suits. Yeah. It was a vision board of a different guy. What year were we talking about when we met? So that would have been 16 years ago, so 2009, 2009. And that is at the same time, I remember you talking about making hair ties and that of course has now evolved into kits which is pretty extraordinary and the accolades, not just the brand and the company have but you as a female entrepreneur have are incredible. Before we get to how you got there, where did that entrepreneurial spark begin? And you talked about a little bit this at other interviews but for people who don't know, let's take us all the way back, all the way back. It's funny because like, I never thought any of these like little things in my life were, I don't know, foreshadowing for what would happen in my future but my stepdad was an orthodontist and my mom and my stepdad were in business together and they offered us the opportunity to make an allowance to make retainers. And I think this is my first memory of being very entrepreneurial. They created a little workshop in our garage in Wisconsin where they set up all of the materials and tools to make retainers and I loved getting the little plaster mold of someone's mouth with someone's name on it and had all of their wants. I want it in pink with glitter and I love this idea that I was like an elf in Santa's workshop. That is amazing. This was on their Christmas list and I get to create this item and then every single night this person is going to put in this retainer and I get to be part of that journey and that was just like, I thought that was so exciting and cool that I got to be part of it. Wow. Yeah. I know how much you are with the customer service experience and listening to your customers that speaks to the exact same thread that you're pulling on from all those years ago where you're saying it's personal. This is something you have on your body. This is something that you're investing in and you get to be part of that story of the thing that they have with them every day. Absolutely. I mean, I think the best way to put it is from day one, the kitchen's always been people-centric. We've always been people-centric. People start a business, they write a business plan, but it was just like, I want to make great products that people love and reorder because I really genuinely believe that reorders are what make a business that really tells you, I value what you've created to the point where I need it again. That is not a business plan, but it is an ethos. Business plans get rewritten every single year. Your ethos does not. Yes. You know, I think for me, it was building a business off of that ethos. It's genuinely of service. It's that same tween that's making retainers in the garage. In the garage in Wisconsin. Wisconsin. Yeah. Hoping that I'll be creating this great experience for the customer that will somehow impact their life for the better. Yes. It's of service. It's intuitive. It's listening. I think part of it is as you talk about the ethos being something that is evergreen, that can be applied to a lot of different modalities. Why did it start with hair ties? How did it start with hair ties? Outside of the fact that you have such gorgeous, epic, legendary hair. Oh my gosh, it was so big today, by the way. I was testing out a new product and I was like, I have to just start over. I had to go and wet it all down and start over. But thank you very much for saying that. It started with hair ties because I could hand make it. It was something that I could be in complete control over. I was making the packaging. I was hand making the product. I was the manufacturer. I was the salesperson. It was 100% me. I could make 10 pieces, 10 samples, go out, sell them, come back, make 20 more. That's why it started with hair ties. Let's just talk about the handmade part because Kitch, even the name, the namesake, that's so much a part of it. Can you talk to that for a second? When I was starting Kitch, I was thinking about, what am I doing? I'm sitting on the floor, my apartment, I'm making these hair elastics. They're kind of silly and fun and cute. I was like, it's kind of kitschy. I was like, what if I just call it Kitch? That's how we came up with the name. If you look at the logo, which I think I've been through seven different logos and the first six were designed by me, but I finally have a true graphic designer. If you look at the logo now, how Kitch has evolved is we've taken these very kitschy items, scrunchies and hair towels and all these silly things and we refined them and made them beautiful. That's why the logo is in this phonetic aesthetic. Yes, and also probably much easier to trademark. So much easier to trademark. Now it can actually be printed on a packaging because my other ones were all swirly and crazy and it was just really hard and all of whatever. No, but the complications of it, again, all of that stuff is you're figuring it out. I think it's just so important for people to hear that because you're bootstrapping it and not even knowing that something that people oftentimes, when they create their business plan and they have their strategic roadmap and they're going to approach this investor and they've already thought about who they're going to sell it to and they're a reverse engineer, you said, "Okay, I've saved up this money, $30,000, yeah." And that is how you said, "I'm going to go forward with this." It's time. I mean, and this was my eighth business that I started. Let's talk about some of the ones before. It's not including Meghan Markle's stylist. Yeah, that was a big one on the resume. I had so many business before Kitch. My mom and I had a boutique together and then I had a jewelry line. I had scarves with inspirational quotes on it. I had my own website, so my mom and I, we had a boutique and I really wanted to have my... This was one of my first businesses. I really wanted to have my own business that wasn't affiliated with my moms and I was like, "You know what, mom? I would love to take all of these products that you have in the store and I want to make my own website and I want to do e-commerce, but it cost so much money to build a website at that point." There was no plug and play and I said, "I know you saved money for each of us to get married. I would love to take that money and create a website with it and start my own business." It was called CassysCouture.com. Oh, do you still have it? Do you still have the domain? No, definitely no. Maybe someone else can do something great with it. I will bequeath it to whoever wants that. No. Or just start to use it now and have it auto-directed to kids. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Great idea. But yeah, so that's a couple of the businesses. I had a spray-tan business when I was out here for a while too. I forgot about that one. Yeah. I had a machine. It was actually a great investment. The return on investment was very quick, but I mean I had failed so many times and I got a job working at a private label jewelry company and I saw the whole private label world and I was like, "Oh, this is really interesting. It really takes a lot of the risk out of inventory. It's essentially you design a piece, you show it to a buyer, they place an order for it. Then they produce, you deliver it, then you get paid in 30 days." When you're saying private label, you're talking about at this point you're designing for jewelry for Forever 21, for Hot Topic, for Urban Outfitters. How old were you at this time? So I was 23, 24, so this is when we'd connected. Yeah. I didn't know you were doing that at the same time. I was doing a lot of stuff. But yeah. So that's how I got into the private label world and that's how I funded Kitch. You spend a third of your life working. Are you spending it well? For so many of us, we're spending that time in jobs that feel more draining than fulfilling. 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We'll call them minor stones. Yeah, someone said instead of milestones, it's inch stones. I feel like everybody's in such a hurry to be successful, right, to get there, to make these big things. When you're bootstrapped, you actually can't. You have to be very slow. You have to be very responsible. Every single opportunity that comes across your plate, you need to make sure that it's profitable. And so bootstrapping was an incredible opportunity for me and my husband, Jeremy, who you know, to really be slow and thoughtful with our growth. And I'm not going to call all of our decisions were very strategic because sometimes we had to say yes to certain opportunities because they were the most financially practical. And so, yeah, so the first opportunity was Nordstrom Kids. Were we a kids brand? No. But it was Nordstrom Kids. And we made it out of the apartment. I had a LTL, which means less than truckload truck, come up to the apartment and I'm loading these cartons out, processing orders. How many? How many was that first order? I think it was like 20, 25 cartons, but it was a $13,000 order. Huge at the time. Manufactured out of my living room. But still just doing hair ties. More hair accessories at this point, elastics, you know, we're really getting into hair accessories and I remember reaching out to a buyer on LinkedIn from Ulta and just saying, you know, I've got these really interesting new hair accessories. I don't know if you'd give us a chance and I sent to the catalog and she responded and she was like, you know, there's some interesting pieces here. Are you going to be at Cosmoprof next month or something? Which is like an expo in the beauty industry. I literally had to go Google what is Cosmoprof because I had no idea it was way too expensive. It was like $20,000 for a booth or something like that and I was like, I can't do that. And I was like, how much is a plane ticket? And I was like, you know, we're not showing in Cosmoprof, but I would love to take you out to lunch. There's a great Mexican restaurant right outside. I'd be happy to like set up a whole thing and she said yes. She said yes. And so then Tula was really young at this point. And she was sick. That's your daughter. Yeah. Tula. And I was like, Jeremy, you have to go. And so my husband went, did the whole meeting. She was so impressed. So excited. She gave us one shelf on an end cap in a small amount of stores and it did so well that she asked us to pitch for a two foot space. And then it was like, I remember one buyer in particular and she was like, you know, these hair ties are so great for my hair. And I knew that they were better for your hair. That was part of the sales pitch. What else can you be doing in hair? And I thought about it and I was like, okay, what if I created basically a new categories hair care as a lifestyle? It's the pillowcase you sleep on. It's the tools you use in your hair. It's pretty much everything that wasn't shampoo and conditioner. Oh, that extra wide headband for when you're washing your face is one of the best products. Oh, thank you. I love that thing. It is a household staple because my daughter has long hair and my husband has very curly hair. And we all love the spa headband. But yeah, and so it's everything that interacts with your hair from the moment you wake up to the moment you go sleep. And we just kept thinking about all these other things and how can we be creating a better experience for the customer for products that they were kind of already using. But let's make better versions of it. It wasn't rocket science. It wasn't rocket science. It wasn't rocket science. It was just like you. It was thoughtful. Well, and also down to the core of what you have always liked doing. So you look at the evolution of that and for me, I was like, I've been making preserves. I've been giving fruit baskets. I've loved to garden before I had a house and a garden like this in my bungalow. I had a lemon tree. And in a way, all these years later, because that's been the undercurrent of how I like to show up for people, to have that still be ingrained in how I show up through the business where the hero product really starts as a fruit spread. It really all, I think it's interesting in talking to so many different entrepreneurs and a lot of the orange stories are women who do not come from a lot, do not have a big MBA, I didn't go to business school. But you're recognizing what there are needs for and you're also saying, what do I want to share in the world? And how do I want to share it thoughtfully and intentionally? And also with a micro focus on detail. And I think that is the undercurrent through how you've built to where you are. Talk about the evolution to the next step and then the evolution of you from founder and wife to founder, wife and mom. Yeah. I think it's really interesting as founders because there really is, I think that there are three stages. There's founder stage where you are in this very scrappy, you need to do every role so that you know who to hire. Right. And it's so important. How do you want this done? Can that person really execute the way that you're envisioning it? And then you're able to create the job description and not through chat GPT. It's like, this is how I want the job done. This how I'm doing the job? Yes. So I'm going to actually write down what I'm doing so I can bring in the person that can take this off the plate. And then hopefully they know how to do the job even better. You know, that's the goal. And then there's the entrepreneur stage where then you're in build, you're in build mode and that's kind of like the post Nordstrom experience, Nordstrom kids experience where then I'm like, okay, all my bills are paid. What's next? Now it's not just an idea anymore. Like what's the next product? What's the next retailer? How do we get to this next place? And that was a really interesting phase for me because that is when I had my daughter. What year was that? So that would have been like 2014. Wow. I can't believe you have a 10 year old. It's so crazy. That is wild. And she's the best. She's also a mini entrepreneur too. Oh, okay. Awesome. But yeah, and that was actually really tricky for me, you know, being four years into the business and that was this entrepreneurial stage where you have to get more strategic and you're doing a lot of hiring and trying to figure out like business infrastructure. I've got the private label arm in my business that is slowly dwindling away because people are wanting the brand more, the brand is being celebrated. And then, you know, I had my daughter, I thought everything was going to be just so easy, I would continue to just go on as my normal self and breastfeed at the office and do all of these things. And I had a real reality check and I had some really intense postpartum anxiety and my husband really had to step in and this is when, you know, we were really growing quickly and it was such a crippling growth period for me. It was so hard. I felt like I wasn't good at anything and I had one child, so I can only speak for my experience with my one daughter, but I think it wasn't until seven, until she was seven years old where I was like, "I'm okay." Oh, wow. What do you think it took you to get to the seven-year window of "I'm okay?" I think it was her ability to really, because, you know, when they're infants, the way they communicate is crying. And I think I had a lot of stuff that came up and I was like, "The crying really hurt my heart." Yeah. It just was so hard for me to hear her cry and I wanted to be there for her, but I had this business that's growing rapidly and I feel like I'm letting the business down if I'm not there every day. But Cassie, that's so fascinating because up until then and before you had had kitchen, before you had had your daughter, you were kind of winging it. I was winging it. Well, the other things, you didn't need to, your self-identity or your sense of self or purpose wasn't tied up in being good at all the things. It was being good enough, figuring it out, and that at some point, I'm so curious to, you have this pinnacle of success with the business. I'm assuming at that point you probably have some investors too. No. No. Kitchen's still bootstrapped today. You're kidding me. No. I'm not. I'm shocked. You were a profitable year one. I mean, that's what happens when you don't hire a graphic designer to your logo. Six iterations. Are you joking? No, I'm not. Well, I'm just, I'm so blown away. You talk about inspiring. That is so inspiring that you've been able to maintain that for so long, but nevertheless based on what you're saying, that's just so wild to me that so much of how you navigated all those years preceding the business and preceding being a mom, you didn't have that feeling. And there is something about, I will say for myself, especially when they're baby babies, and yes, the crime, before I was a mom, and I've always wanted to be a mom, before I was a mom, I was like, "Oh gosh, I'm going to give a speech with a baby on my hip." I had a whole vision. I was like, "I'm just going to," and then you fast forward, granted I had a lot of external things happening. By the time I had both pregnancies and both babies, but it was not the way I envisioned it. But so for you, that's a lot from infancy to toddler time, all the way to the age of seven, and then that seven, something shifted. Yeah, she just, she was so, she was such a great communicator, and I really felt like it was more than just like an energetic bond. It was this real, at seven, she was just so wildly smart and capable of communicating what she wanted and needed, and the whole dynamic, it made me feel like I was doing a good job. So, what's interesting though, I'm dyslexic. I didn't know that. I'm dyslexic. When I was really young, I failed at the most foundational thing that all kids learn how to do. But I prevailed. Right? I can read. I mean, now I'm a ferocious reader. So this idea of failure for me, it was one of those things where it ended up being a superpower of mine because failing at such a young age, at something so foundational, that it gave me this ability to not be so scared of failure, but then also knowing that I have this, and what I like to call sensible optimism. I can get through this. I can get through it. And when I had her, even though I was in such a dark place, I continued to have that sensible optimism. I know I can get through this. This is dark. This is heavy. I will come out stronger, and I did a lot of Byron Katie's work, and again, digging deep in my toolbox of meditation and all these different things. But just like everybody talks about, this was a minor stone. It was so important for me. It taught me how to hold boundaries with people. And when I started to catch, I was 25 years old. I was very immature. I did not know how to manage people. I did not know how to manage being a parent. When she turned seven, I had done so much work around that. I woke up one day, and I was like, "Ah, I've arrived. I know what I'm doing. I know I'm not perfect, but I know where I'm going." Yes. And again, this speaks to what you've said about not always having a strategy, but always having a vision. Yes. So being able to see that North Star where you can trust that you're going to be even on the darkest days, but as we go back to Tula and you said that she has this entrepreneurial spirit, for me, it's so important that my kids see me as a working mom. Now if that's important to you, if you're saying you see in her that same spirit of you making these retainers, which I'm just picturing you in this garage, putting glitter in a pink retainer and someone walking in and going, "What have you just done? It's amazing." I'm assuming Tula's not making retainers. What is the entrepreneurial spirit that is coming out of her right now? Well, she really wanted to buy something around the holidays last year. And I said, "You know what, Tula? You have to come up with a business idea of something that you can make and sell. I'll give you a loan for all the supplies that you need. I'll work with you. We'll make a little plan of what the product will be, how are you going to sell it, how much you're going to sell it for, and I'll work with you on this." And she came up with this great idea to make candy kebabs for Halloween. And so she bought all these different kinds of candies and like peeps and like all this stuff and she stuck them on a kebab stick and wrapped them up. And she took a basket and went out on Large Mont Boulevard and she was like really meek and quiet. She's like, "Candy kebabs." And she was so little. And so then I was like, "Hey, you really want to sell these? You got to talk loud. You need to stand in the middle of the street and you need to tell people why they need these candy kebabs." And it was one of the best things that we've ever done as parents. And now she'll be like, "I want something. I'm going to go make some things." So now she doesn't have to take loans anymore. She has a savings account. She goes and every time she wants something, she goes and she'll think of a new idea and go sell it out on Large Mont. But we always tell her she has to give some of it to charity. I wish it was self-initiated that she has to give something to charity, but we have her pick a charity that she wants to donate a portion of all of her sales as a mitzvah. And so when the LA fires happened, she was like, "Mom, I have a great idea. We have a lemon tree." And she's like, "I'm going to pick all these lemons and I'm going to sell the lemons on Large Mont and just donate 100% of it to the firefighters." She made $800 for the LA firefighters. Everybody was so giving. She was just so proud of herself. I'm proud of her. That's amazing. And you know I love a lemon. I know in some of your previous interviews, you've talked about being a people pleaser. So how hard was that for you to compartmentalize when you can intellectualize what you should be doing as an entrepreneur, but emotionally, it's a very different experience. The people pleasing in my interpersonal life was complicated. I think that even with my daughter, I didn't set boundaries with her because I wanted her to like me. And with employees pre-having kids, I had a hard time giving good feedback because I wanted them to like me. And that is more of where the people pleaser aspect was not healthy. And so then when I broke that down and I channeled it into something that was more appropriate in like you know of service to a customer and you know giving great customer service for the brand to our retail partners in all these different ways, but learning how to have healthy boundaries, I think you know that was a big shift for me. So in all of that, how to really, really clearly define and refine what are the things to be taken off of your plate now and what are the things that you don't want someone to take off your plate because you're like no, by doing that, you're removing the thing that brings me joy. Has that evolved from where you started to where you are now? Yeah. So I once read, which is really fascinating and something to keep in the back of your mind that if the founder becomes the CEO and the business continues to grow, what they were best at starts to become like their most difficult area of the business. I'm writing it down. The idea is really interesting. It's something I keep watch on all the time and what we do is we develop really great products. I love being like very hands on with the PD team. But if you have the CEO title, you have to keep running the business. And so you're now part time in the area that you were the best at at one point. And so I need to make sure that I have the strongest product developers and I had to release control over it too. You're better at this than me. I will let you do that. You get my vision. Let's keep going. Yes. And also finding those people who are able to pull up a stool into your head and really understand your taste level and be able to do the product development the way that you would do it if you could so that you can let it go so you can let it go and you can still sleep at night because I think so much of it is being in a tremendous level of trust. You're entrusting as you grow so many other people to carry out the vision that you had. And so in that, what are you comfortable sharing that were maybe some of the mistakes that if you could do it differently, you would adjust because if so much of your ethos is about being of service and even though you haven't done as many podcasts or panels doing this now is such an active service for young entrepreneurs who are starting a business to be able to know, oh, I don't have to do that, that and that. She would have done that, that and that differently. Is there any insight you want to share? I mean, there's so many mistakes that I made. The leadership aspect, I wish I would have educated myself a little bit more on that earlier because I think I read a lot of management books, but they were so old school. And I think I was a little immature about this, like, okay, I read a management book. I know how to do it, you know, and it was like, I would do like a pretty immediate about face and I'd be like, let's do this, you know, we're implementing all of these new strategies right away. And I think there's real power in having endorsements from your team. And you know, I have these ideas. I would love to get your feedback from leadership teams specifically. I would love to get your feedback on these. How do you think we can improve these ideas? And I think that that is something that we do now and it's extremely beneficial learning how to run highly effective meetings. Some mistakes that I've made and that's not to be mistakes, I mean, mistakes or breaks or great confessions, but also just advice either. I mean, you know, I can give some advice. So definitely that's sensible optimism. Knowing that like it's not about avoiding all the hard problems. It's about knowing that you'll get through them and continuing to focus on like, what are you wanting the outcome to be? Brene Brown talks about this all the time. What does done look like? What does it look like when it's done? That's what you have to focus on. And then some other things, like I do a lot of micro intentions. I have been doing this since 2018. I started a journal and it was, I love journaling. I was writing journal entries from the future as if they were already happening. Have you saved all the journals? It's incredible. It's like, Megan, I can't even tell you how, how insane some of these things are. Like there's just, there's ones where I'm like, you know, we're the fastest growing brand at Target. And I wrote it like in 2019, we weren't in Target yet. And we just found out this last fall that we were a top 25 fastest growing brand in all of beauty, which is wild and such an oversaturated market. And I'm just so proud of you, Cassie. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so proud of you too. I mean, it's so wild. I remember, I remember thinking like, I wonder if Megan and I will run into each other again one day. That was just so wild. And we did, and that's so cool. Our paths were meant to cross. I'm so glad they did. Thank you. Of course. Oh my gosh, this was such an honor. Next week we're talking to a founder who sold a majority stake per billion dollar brand to build something completely new and very unexpected. I spent the first four years quietly with two girls that make bras. None of us have one idea how to make a shoe, but I didn't know how to make shape for either. And I always say to people, when you don't know how something's supposed to be done, you're insured you're going to do it differently. And that's where innovation is. Can you guess who it is? We'll see you next week. Confessions of a Female Founder is a production of Lemonade Media, created and hosted by Megan. Our producers are Katherine Barnes and Oha Lopez. Kristen LaPore is our senior supervising producer. Executive producers are Stephanie Whittle's Wax, Jessica Cordova-Cramer, and Megan. Mix and sound design are by Johnny Vance Evans. Rachel Neal is our VP of new content and production. And Steve Nelson is our SVP of weekly content and production. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. There's more Confessions of a Female Founder with Lemonade Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content when you subscribe in Apple Podcasts. You can also listen ad-free on Amazon Music with your Prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next week. We hope you enjoyed Confessions of a Female Founder with Megan. If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do so is by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. It helps more incredible listeners like you discover the series. Thank you.