Booked Solid. Broke Anyway. The Therapist Money Crisis Nobody Talks About | E103

(soft music) - One, it's intimidating too. It's a foreign language. (soft music) So team, I talk all the time to therapists in private practice, brilliant, hard working therapists who believe with all their heart and soul that the answer to their money stress is to earn more money, right? More clients, more hours, bigger caseload, more revenue, and here's the thing that shocked me as a business owner in private practice, is that earning more money is not the same thing as having more money, keeping more money. There's all kinds of things that can actually get in the way of that. That's where my business partner, Andrea and I, we were like, look, we need to help these therapists because they're helping everybody else. They need this help and they don't know what they don't know and how would they? And so that is why today, we are talking to a very special guest. Her name is Emily Buie. She is a CPA and cash flow strategist who works specifically with service-based professionals just like us who are on paper, maybe like top-line revenue, doing great, but don't have any money left at the end of the day. And we're gonna find out why today with Emily. It's gonna make you a better therapist when you're not worried about your finances. Welcome. Oh my goodness. Thanks for having me. This is definitely something I love talking about because I just, I think it's a struggle for most business owners and there's not a lot of spaces where you can ask questions without having to pay for that. Yeah. And pay you, too. Yeah. And even if you pay for it, you don't even feel comfortable enough to ask the question because I hear that a lot too with CPAs. People feel silly asking questions and I'm like, "Nah, nah, no, we are the ones you want to ask questions to. Please let me answer them." Yeah. Well, and you do need to ask questions and honestly, I just have a long history of doing things the hardest way possible typically and then making a huge mess. I mean, oh no. And then that's when I learn and I'm just so happy for all of our friends who are here with us who might be learning from this before making all the mistakes. But I mean, just to share, maybe this is where we start. And I'm sure you've seen this story before, but for me personally, I was a therapist as a psychologist and went forth in private practice and started as a solopreneur. And then because I'm ambitious and insane, I was like, let's do a group practice. It's gonna be great. And then, fast forward several years later and had 65 therapists running around here. The high water mark, I think we made like $4 million and it will revenue just from like billables. But I never learned how to read a financial statement. I was like, okay, money coming in, there's money in the bank to pay for stuff, where I write, not all right. It was only when I started getting serious about finances, as a CPA and honestly, a very brilliant business coach who was like, yeah, what are you doing? (laughing) I was like, right? And then I was like, oh, oh, this is why I don't have any money left over. 'Cause you know, it's like, where's the money? At the end of the day. Well, and I think that's very common for new business owners, but even seasoned business owners, a lot of times people know to ask for their income statement or their profit and loss statement, but they don't know that that net income doesn't actually equate to what's in their bank account. Yeah. And often they don't have that background because they got into business or in this case, they got into creating a group practice because they were really good at that. And they were really good at being a leader in that industry. But now all of a sudden they have to wear 15 different hats that they didn't have to wear before when they were not a business owner. So it's actually very understandable that one, it's intimidating too. Once you hear about it. And I think it's probably more common than we realize that business owners, they just are like hoping and praying. They have the money they're supposed to have to make payroll or do the next thing. Yeah. Well, and honestly, I mean, I didn't realize how important it was. I thought the goal was to make money, like revenue, that we're good. And I did not realize that there are all these other metrics that need to be paid attention to. And I also didn't realize, maybe you could speak to this part because when I started working with like serious financial professionals, I was like, whoa, that even when I was getting financial statements prepared for me by a bookkeeper, the chart of accounts was not set up in a way that generated any useful information at all. I remember asking about it one time. And they were like, well, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, it's all just an expense. It was for the IRS is concerned. So it doesn't even matter versus being able to see like, where am I spending my money? Could you speak a little bit about that? Because I was like, oh, I think, well, I'm very passionate about this because as a cash flow strategist, I come from that like fractional CFO world. If your information is not useful, we can't do anything with it. And I think one thing most business owners struggle with is understanding whose role is what. So a bookkeeper is typically just categorizing for you. They're not necessarily strategically thinking about the information you need to get from your financials. So oftentimes they are just doing what they know how to do, which is, hey, you said this was an office expense. It's going in there. You said it was this revenue stream, it's going in there. And that is your one financial professional. The next I would say would be that fractional CFO cash flow strategist, I like to say cash flow because I think it's the most important part that a fractional CFO does. But that person is looking at your financial statements to gain knowledge. So then you can actually perform strategies. So I think often in the online space specifically, they'll encourage you to hire a business coach or a business strategist. But then they don't have the fundamental background to do the analysis that's needed to actually say that strategy is going to work or not. That's kind of where a fractional CFO or a cash flow strategist comes into play. And then we have the tax preparer, which is what most business owners know and are familiar with. It's the person who files your taxes every year. We have to do that. We know that. We have to do that. And they just plug and play. They take your reactive financial decisions and they plug it into your worksheet. Oh my gosh. And they make sure you pay the government what you're supposed to pay. Every day. Yeah, they don't think about it. They're not looking at ways to save you money. That's when you get to attack strategists. That's somebody who's looking at how you've been doing things and shares with you other opportunities for you to potentially engage in. And then runs numbers for you and says, if you do this, it looks like that. If you do this, it looks like that. And so the most powerful combination I have found is that cash flow strategist with the tax strategist because you don't have to translate to the tax strategist, the things the cash flow strategist tells you and vice versa. Instead, they work in tandem to make sure you not only generate as much cash as possible, but then you get to keep it or you invest it in ways that build wealth today and tomorrow. And that is kind of what we do at Thorn. And it is something that you don't get it everywhere. And usually you have to pay five different people to kind of get that holistic nature. And it can leave you in a deficit and having you conducting the train. And you're like, I don't even have a license to do this. Yeah. And it can be really rough. So it makes sense that not only not having that fundamental knowledge, but then if you don't know what professional you're actually working with, your expectations of them could be totally unrealistic. Absolutely. I've done that too. I've done that too. You know, because I think this is so basic. This is like so starter pack. But the reality again, is that therapists, why should we know any of this, right? And even that there are different types of financial professionals that have different roles in this whole landscape. And that they're not the same thing as each other. And right, it was news to me, honestly, at the beginning. So let's talk about this a little bit more because you know, it's our-- therapists friends have gathered around this campfire, listening to this conversation, I can already imagine some of them have already dissociated. It was just what you were starting to talk about, a tax plan, so it was bringing them back. So let's talk about this. When it comes to therapists, I'm actually curious to hear your story. So you're a CPA. Yeah. How did you come to have a special heart for the helping professionals? What is their story there? Oh, for sure. There's the personal story that I've invested in therapy at my whole life because to me, in order to grow and scale, and have a really healthy relationship with your business, as well as your family and your home life and all of that, you gotta talk about some things. You gotta sort through some things. So I love a therapist, both personally, but professionally speaking, we had one client that we were working with in paying $300,000 in taxes, not in exaggeration. But yay for her, she must not have a great business, right? Yeah. Paying $300,000 in taxes because 30 years ago, somebody told them that, you know, you don't need to become an escort. There's no advantage to it. And they just never revisited it again because they were in solo practice. They had grown and scaled in different ways, working at universities and different things like that. And so they were never really with other professionals, even in their industry, to ask those types of questions. And that's where my business partner, Andrea and I, we were like, look, we need to help these therapists because they're helping everybody else, they need this help. And they don't know what they don't know, and how would they? Right. Yeah. So you saw this person kind of wandering around, paying so much more money it sounds like than they really needed to because they didn't have the guidance that we're talking about right now. So, so let's get into this. I mean, you know, why for a therapist who believes that the answer to the problem is making more money, why is that not always a direct, you know, one to one outcome? Oh, my perspective. From my perspective, especially being in the cash flow side of things, they could be priced really bad. And what do you mean? That is typically what I see being the biggest issue is that they're not accounting for what it costs to turn the lights on every day because one, they probably don't have great books, why? Because they haven't outsourced them yet, because it's just them or it's just a few of them or whatever the case may be. Yeah. And then too, once they got those financial statements, they didn't know what it meant. And they just priced based on what everybody else does. And they're not factoring in that, hey, about 30% of the money they will make go to expenses off the bat regardless of if they make that money or not. So they need to be putting that into perspective when they're pricing. So what I like to do is I like to sit down with them and say, hey, what do you price at? How much does it cost you to deliver? So like what's your hourly rate? If you're paying somebody to do it, what's their hourly rate? Do they need to rent a space, whatever the case may be? That is your gross margin. And then you get this sweet percentage that happens on your financial statement. And it's all those below the line expenses. And you take that number and compare it to what you've earned. And you get a percentage that percentage is applied. And then all of a sudden you realize every time you have a session at that price, you've lost money. Okay. And being devastating. (laughing) I would like to just say from personal experience, that is true. But we needed to like slow down because this is gold right here and I wanna make sure that people understand like really deeply what you're talking about because I didn't. I honestly like work for the business coach for a year and I got really lucky because he's excellent with financing. Okay, so we need to talk about a few things. What is called cost of goods sold? And there's this equation and I was like, what? Okay. And like operating expenses, gross profit margin. And so take us more deeply into this. I'd love just a little starter pack explainer. Love this. Yeah, what do those things even mean? Okay, so I will do the accounting 101 of an income statement. Because that is the one everybody looks at. That's the one everybody talks about. Your income statement, you know, when you're working with typically a business strategist or a coach, they are encouraging you to get that top line revenue. So that is the money that is you call. Billable hours. Yes, billable hours. That's a hundred dollars a session, let's say, round number, okay. So that's that hundred dollars a session. Then we roll into the cost of goods sold on that line. Basically, those are expenses that you incur to generate that hundred dollars. It is a direct correlation. So it would be your hourly rate or cost or if you're in a group practice, it would be the cost of having that therapist do that session. And it can be also the rental, you know, like whatever additional costs that are directly related to making that session happen. And can I just share something that this is when it clicked for me when my business coach was like, if you, if this number goes up because of the more clients you see, that would be a direct delivery cost. Yes, yes. And I was like, perfect way to explain it. Is that you would every time you earn dollars, you expect the cost of goods sold to match it, right? Because you would not have that cost if you did not earn that dollar. It's one of those things. And then you get to gross margin, which is just the difference between the two. So it's that revenue, if it was a hundred dollars, and your cost of goods sold was $50, that gross margin would be $50. Yeah. And that is actually the money that you have to work with. Yes. Especially if you're an employer and you have to pay somebody else $50 to do whatever the thing is. And then basically like, you know, the $50 leftover. That's where you're starting. Thank you. And so when we're at that $50, then we have expenses such as yours do, well, you have probably a more fancy way of meeting with clients, but whatever your practice software is or if it's your rent or any of the tools within your business to be able to turn the lights on every day, that you're going to pay regardless if you make money or not. Yeah. That's your overhead. That's your operating expenses that you were talking about. And they are a percentage of how much money you earn on a regular basis. So for sake of simple numbers, let's say that bottom line when you compare it to your income is 10%. And so you paid $100 or a day paid $100 for a session. You paid 50 to somebody else. You got 50 remaining. Then you take that 10% times the 100, which gets you $10 more that you pay out and just what it costs to run the business. Yeah. And you only end up with 40. But if you just recognize life as the revenue you generate, you were thinking you were working with $100, but you're only actually working with 40. And typically that operating expense piece is more like 30%, 40%. So if it's 40%, and you only have $50 after you pay somebody, you're only ending all of that every time that session runs with $10. Yeah. That sounds about right. Yeah. And it makes it really tough to operate in that and have predictable margins. If you don't know your numbers, truly. Absolutely. I am so glad that we're talking about this. I mean, this is so, let's just name it, horrifying, discouraging, right? All the things. But it is also the reality. And I think that that is what we need to, you know, because I think therapists view private practice as like this, this oasis and the desert, right? I'm going to get out of an agency where I'm not earning enough money, right? Or salary going to private practice. I will make $150 an hour, but not realizing that by the time you pay for all the stuff, it is so much less than that. And you know what else I was, I started to think about is you were sharing like if you are billing insurance, oh, yeah, you need to pay someone else if you have help to submit that insurance claim and then haven't denied. And then sit on the phone for 45 minutes on hold. And you know, like go back and forth, like, if their rate is $20, $25, $30 an hour, and it is taking them how long to get the freaking claim paid, or if that's something that you're doing with your own time, that is-- That is a fact. That's to be sacked or not. Well, if it's safe, and then the other side of it, too, is the delay and cash that comes back in. And so again, we're now chasing money that we anticipated to come in, because we already had this question. Yeah. But then we're not getting it for-- 30, 60, 90 days depending on what's happening or in a week or whatever it is. And so then there's that difference between that net income you're supposed to have in the bank and then what's actually in the bank. Oh my gosh. It makes it complicated. And it's so I think from my perspective it's like you should be like, oh it's okay like it is hard. That is why it feels so hard. It is hard. But it doesn't have to be hard because you don't have to do it alone. And they're not, you know, well, we need to take a quick break. But let's talk about that on the other side. I mean, I think we've been talking about what happens when we just, you know, go on autopilot and start doing stuff, not having the understanding of a different way to think about it, that through the lens of a financial professional, I heard you talk about pricing at the very beginning. I also heard you talk about, you know, there are different strategies and ways of lining this up to have a much stronger business, honestly, at the end of the day. On the other side of the break, can we start going there? Yes, I would love that. Amazing. So you guys were back. My guest today is Emily Buie. She is a CPA and a cash flow strategist who specializes in working with therapists like us. And just before the break, you were doing such a good job of traumatizing everyone within the sound of our voices with this cautionary tale of like, what what typically happens if you just start doing stuff without thinking about it that much. And so what I would love to talk more about are some of the things that you have seen or coached therapists to think about or maybe do differently that can begin to help them. I don't know, actually support themselves and earn a living and have something left at the end of the day. Let's talk about that. So one easy practical is doing expense audits. I recommend this at least quarterly. I would hope everybody did it quarterly, but realistically every six months or so. And just going through and making sure you need all the things you're paying for. It helps so much with saving on that overhead expense truly. And it gives you an awareness. And anytime you bring awareness into your finances, you just do better. It's a very simple, practical thing you can do today. And can I just validate what you're saying? My bookkeeper was like, you are so extra. What are you doing? I was like, no, I need a spreadsheet with all of the things because, you know what? I found there's all these dams subscriptions that you're paying. So like, you know, things that you sign up for and it's like, 999 a month, you don't even notice it, but then you have like 12 of them and you're right. I mean, just stuff like that or sad stuff. Sometimes like, there's less expensive ways to get the same results. For your body. Yeah. So such a good idea. I love that. So I think there's one common category. I feel like most people need to audit right away. Is there software subscriptions? Yes. Oh my god. There are so many tools that do the exact same thing and you're paying for all three of them. So you know, it's like one of those things. The other thing to look at is just return on investment of things. So say you've been in a coaching program and you just continue to reinvest, reinvest, are you using it? Have you thought or implemented the information? You can get new information, have you done anything with it? So like, that's another kind of filter you can run it through. And I think this is helpful because it's that quick win and we all know like in order to continue to do hard things, we have to have wins in the process. And I feel like an expense audit is one of those things that helps you be able to be like, hey, I really don't need this or hey, I've been paying for this monthly. If I pay for it annually, I saved like $400 a year. Totally. I should do that. Yeah. But there is the flip side of it too is like you might want to pay it myth monthly so that your cash flow is free to reinvest in something else or to do tax strategy or whatever. So it goes back to there's not a one size fits all, but we all should be looking and bring awareness to like where the money is going out. Yeah. Yeah. Such good advice. And I'm hoping you could talk a little bit more about something else. You said that I thought was so powerful. And again, it's this is a stuff that you live and breathe. And it's like so obvious to you, but telling you mental health professionals are just not wired this way. And so what you were talking about is what is the return on your investment? And wait, we have to we have to bring something else into the room right now, Emily. There's also I think a very real and powerful socialization that happens with therapists and other helping professionals around money. And the the meaning that we make of like our self image, what kind of person looks at what we do, saving lives, helping people in the most powerful ways. And then things return on investment. Like I think there's this capitalist corporate raider like I need to push this away. And so I think that this is probably a separate thing that we need to talk about is like how do you start to reclaim this? You're like, it's like a values alignment thing. Yeah. So I have so much to say about that. And even this comes into play when we're talking about increasing pricing too, because when you would do it for free, you think, how can I raise the price? But it's a truth. Yeah. But if you can't turn the lights on next week, you got to raise the price. And you're not selfish. You're not greedy. You're not taking advantage of anything. But you do have to look at it from the lens of impact. If you are not generating enough income to live, if you're not generating enough income to grow and scale, that diminishes the amount of impact you can have. And when you kind of make that shift in understanding around your pricing, it's a lot easier to get behind it. The other thing with pricing too is you don't have to change existing patients. You could say, hey, my new, my new patient rate is this. So then you establish from the get that that is how much it, how much it costs to work with you. And so then you don't have to, you know, raise it for the existing. But if you do need to, like say, you're losing every time that session happens, you can do it in five dollar increments, 10 dollar increments. And you can work your way up because sometimes those patients, the lifetime value that they provide, you want to honor it with like a slow increase. And you can be as transparent as you need to be, you know? Yeah. Oh, so many good ideas. Like if if you are not able to take care of yourself, and this is not a sustainable profession for you, you're not doing anybody any favors. First of all, right? And so like you, you have a right to live. Okay. Emily, I'm like having so, I mean, this is, this is so powerful, so important. We might actually have to have a part two because I think there's so much here. I want to plant a flag. And there's one thing about return on investment. And at some point, get you to talk about how do we even start to measure that? But let's go here first. So what I'm hearing you say is that an important thing to consider is raising rates. Yeah. And on behalf of our friends here with us, you know, probably eight out of 10 of them are panelled with insurance companies who control their hourly rates, which is often quite low. And the other thing, and I've seen this as a private practice owner. On the one hand, accessibility to therapists and also affordability of services has never been lower. We now have big, you know, heavily funded corporate machines in this space who are able to scale and can, you know, have all kinds of therapists that are they're able to connect with clients, clients are able to use insurance or they're able to subsidize client acquies as you to the point that it can be very difficult for a independent therapist to compete. Like, you know, why should a client say, well, I could work with you for $200 an hour or I could work with this therapist who sounds like does exactly the same thing that you do for nothing because I can use my insurance. Right. Why, you know, can we talk about that part? And I think that's very real, right? And I think just like any other business owner, you should identify who you're either ideal patient is and what they're experiencing and how you can serve them well because also that will help you with the socioeconomic side of it like can they afford to work with you and if you want to work with you can always do scholarships for people you can do passive income things where you can share the knowledge that you have that you feel like a certain group of individuals would benefit from and then that can be an additional income stream so that you can still work at those lower rates if that is what your heart's telling you right you need to do and then there's just options of saying hey like that doesn't work for me and maybe you consider maybe not working on your own maybe there is an opportunity to join a group practice where you can charge lower and not have the full cost impact on yourself I think sometimes when we make a decision one day and then we decide and evaluate that decision doesn't make sense anymore sometimes we judge ourselves and I think there's no need to do that because seasons change as an I'm sure you walk patients through this on a regular basis where like life serves up different circumstances and things might change but there's so many options you just need to have the eyes to see and be like available for what different ways you can go about getting the same amount if that makes sense right oh my gosh this is also good and again I mean just to validate what you're saying that was absolutely my experience I think when I did get more visibility into finances and how much it was actually costing me to try to like make all this magic happen and it was not worth it and I was like I don't this is stupid I don't want to do this anymore but but that's where I think it comes back to what what we had stuck that little pin in was how do we actually measure the return on investment and start to get our heads around how much this is worth really at the end of the day can we talk about that on the other side of the next break yes I love it [Music] All right you guys were back with my very special guest Emily Buie she is a CPA and cash flow strategist here to help us understand how to create a sustainable professional experience if if you're doing a private practice situation because it's so easy for business owners to get so far out over their skis especially if they don't have visibility into how much things actually cost versus how much you're earning and what your investments are worth at the end of the day now so before before we pause on that last break Emily I I made you promise to take us into this part get a handler on that yeah so I think we're turn on investment when you hear it you're like what does that mean one but to there it really can be different for anybody right it could be quantifiable where it say hey I have spent a thousand dollars and because I now have the skill I can charge a hundred dollars more an hour or whatever the case may be so you can then do the calculation and say hey for every 10 patience this makes sense for me to invest in this course or certification or whatever but there's also a qualitative factor I think that we kind of skip over once we start understanding the financial side sometimes where like the numbers are telling me no but qualitatively speaking it is important to also say hey I just really want to learn this skill yeah and so it might not make sense numbers wise but for me in order for me to stay excited and in the business I just go out and just go do that yes that's okay too and I think that's where the professional you're working with having them like know you both on a professional and a personal level is super helpful because my job is to show you the numbers help you understand them and say hey have you considered doing x, y and z but for me to give you good solutions x, y, or z I need to know like your personality and what you need as a business owner too because sometimes the qualitative outrides whatever the numbers actually saying you know yeah thank you I love this that it needs to be values aligned and you know what at the end of the day it's not always about just the math right because having a good time enjoying yourself also maybe needs to be part of the story right and for you to do something because you want to and feel excited about it like that is is a different kind of valuable there's more more things than just money are valuable so and I talk about this a lot with business owners I really encourage them to have their vision mission and core values and I say this is your measuring stick of yes and no's in your business right raising your prices does it fit in a line with my values does it further my mission or is it if more or less if I keep them at the rate that I'm at yeah can I actually go do the impact the vision statement I wrote says right maybe not and so using that as that measuring stick is helpful but it can even be working with a patient like you might meet a patient and you're like hey I really need to have another session for this month to be profitable but on the other side of it it's taking away from your capacity and you may not actually be better on the other end of it and then you can't see more patients right that's a very real thing in what you're doing as a mental health professional is like you have to be really clear on that value system and where you're trying to go where you've been all of that in order to say hey this number makes sense or it doesn't absolutely well and I'll just try him in here you know is a clinical supervisor as well um I think that there's also a risk for therapists who are in a private practice who are in a precarious place financially to make clinical decisions based on what they need financially and sometimes that the expense of a client yeah so you know so do you need to see that client four times a month with that client actually benefit more from having a little more space in the right sessions I've also seen that many times and I'm gonna say this out loud people probably get mad at me for doing it but like you know does this client still really need to be in a relationship with you right like there can be this catch and hold thing where like I've been in therapy for 10 years and thinking what because there's this this thing and like it turns into a paid friend a situation that can create a load dependency right right that is actually in opposition with our ethical code and so I would argue that financial strength is actually part of of ethical practice because when you're in an okay place you could be like I think our work here is done right come back if something else comes up I'm just right but you know um that needs to be part of what we do for sure yeah I totally think that is a very relevant conversation right because I think we can once we understand the importance of numbers rely on them too heavily yeah and sometimes you need to kind of go back to that measuring stick that you outline the reason you're doing the thing you're doing and saying hey does this make sense on both ends of it right because I do think financial responsibility allows you to say no when no makes sense yes and yeah boundaries boundaries for sure wrong so um I'd also be curious you know to to hear your thoughts for you know I think that in this profession and just the nature of the the industry itself especially with the way it's changed a lot over I would say the last even five years or so and this is accelerating right with a rise of AI based therapy right to put that loosely um I think that more and more therapists are not just feeling a squeeze but honestly feeling trapped um I think one potential exit door that isn't right for everybody but I you know a significant part of my practice shifted when I understood that so much of what therapists are asked to do day to day is really not clinical mental health treatment right is development and outcome attainment you know what am I doing with my career I want to improve my relationship it isn't cl- it's not medically necessary treatment right it's not behavioral health care and um and so my practice changed a lot when I started exploring coaching psychology and actually diversified my skill set into coaching to have a different way of helping those people who are non-clinical, I think honestly more effectively than trying to apply treatment modalities to these outcome results. So that changed a lot of things for my business and so I think that some therapists, I mean there are advantages, coaches, unfortunately, typically can command higher rates because I'm more specialized service and it isn't covered by insurance so that is an area of it's like an island of safety in all of this but yeah tell us more about some of the things that you've seen work for therapists who really want to get out of this you know this going great yeah thank you that's the word yeah that's the word um coaching is a perfect example of providing a service you're very qualified to provide but you're confined to not really be able to provide in the traditional therapies or to your point maybe somebody needs to graduate from the traditional therapy setting and you then can have another offer in which you actually are and coach I have to say something out loud oh my gosh wait I'm so sorry so I'm a clinical supervisor and I'm also a coaching educator for therapists so I do a board certified coach training program and so some of the things that we need to talk about are ethics related to coaching because therapists in this space they they even though coaching is unregulated therapists are still regulated and we have to be really careful about how we thread some of these needles and what you just described is actually prohibited you just know that you didn't know that that's okay but I just wanted to say in case anybody's listening to this and be like oh okay oh I that it should clarify I didn't mean graduate that patient in work pushing that is knowing that it out there and available for them because that's really what they need and not your traditional modality of therapy so I should clarify that so I'm glad you with that distinction because I do know there are so many more regulations it's the same thing in the financial world I sure it is it's kind of the safety of working with somebody who has a CPA versus nothing or some different if that makes us financial coach yeah and that's not just saving it be legitimate I just have to be look if that makes sense we we are in the same boat I got it yeah similarly so thank you for interrupting them because that is not what I meant but I could see how it would be I've talked to some therapists who think they don't know what the regulations are they don't even know that it's problematic and so they do it and so that's why I'm like anyway okay well okay we're back yeah because there's this this gap there where people are staying in therapy but they really could benefit from a different unique approach to coaching and you can offer that and you also can take all that knowledge that you have that doesn't just go away from you when you get into that coaching space and support them but then also there's a market out there for just tools for people that you are working with patients on a regular basis or clients on a regular basis and you can make them into PDF guides and sell them for five bucks and it gives them a tool that they can utilize that's outside of that you could create programs where you walk people through specific things they're going through from a coaching standpoint and provide it as a course yeah it could be a group coaching opportunity and these are all opportunities where you can make a little bit more on doing what you do best which is to share your expertise in an area okay and the beautiful thing too along that side is same line is that this gives you opportunity to stay at those lower rates in therapy because you have another revenue stream coming in and it gives you just this opportunity to be able to kind of level set and live within your values and also still be not potentially resentful having to get charged lower than you should be getting you know yeah so so that diversification and and having different types of income that you could charge differently now um what what's how you know because I also talked to therapists sometimes and they're um you know they've they've invested so much into being highly skilled clinical mental health professionals right and and so um I think what we're talking about just now appeals to a subset but there are other people who's like I don't want to do that I really want to do clinical work what have you seen work in a private practice setting um I so I would say I have seen people that operate within private practice then work at a university level okay screening and helping other clinical professionals without having the responsibility of maintaining them on a day-to-day basis but can share some of that expertise that's another really great very lucrative way where you can go and go couple weeks and go do something of that nature and then go back to your clinical work right um but I think also in the private practice piece if you really want to live there and thrive there you really should consider looking at your prices and potentially raising them to support you better um because it's going to make you a better therapist when you're not worried about your finances right like in the work you do the impact you have is not just limited to the person in front of you it's that person and everyone they interact with and you deserve to make a live not only a livable wish but also be able to thrive too so that they can thrive and so on and so forth because they're such a ripple effect you know yeah and and team there there are ways to do this you know to raising your prices maybe fewer clients but clients that pay you more on the other side of that equation though there can be a marketing problem to solve and I would refer you back to other episodes in my feed where we've we've tackled that as its own thing um but Emily this has been a phenomenal conversation I'm just I'm so grateful to you on behalf of our listeners today but also you know what you're doing day in and day out and just as we're talking reflecting on how how vitally important it is to have somebody like you in our corner at like it was for me and so if somebody's hearing this it is like I need to talk to Emily like what's the first step how would they track you down so if you go to thornadvisors.com thorn with an e at the end um advisors.com my business partner Andrea Mason and I we operate that if you have on a call with us we just walk through where you're at where you want to go and how what's working for you what's not and we figure out if we're a good fit to move forward and assess what it is you actually mean and then if you just want to hear just nuggets of information that you can run and go apply. Andrea and I have a podcast called Prosper and get paid playbook amazing and we do 10 15 minute episodes just to run you through one thing so you can digest it and go off and go do something about it you know that's incredible oh my gosh I love that so much um okay and so your your practice is thorn within e that's the name of the website thorn okay yes thornadvisors.com thornadvisors.com and of course you guys will link to this will be in the show notes um but Emily thank you so much for your time today this was a wonderful thank you for having me. Thanks for listening to love happiness and success for therapists. If you found today's episode helpful please share it with a friend or colleague and if you would like more support on your journey whether that's growing your skills evolving your practice becoming certified as a coach or just feeling more inspired in your work come visit me growingself.com click on the fourth therapist section and sign up for my newsletter so we can keep in touch and let's also connect on LinkedIn. I'm at doctor Lisa Marie Bobby take care and I'll talk to you next time (upbeat music)