Book Club: Let's Talk About 'The Catch,' by Yrsa Daley-Ward

[MUSIC] I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the Book Review podcast. On this week's episode, our monthly Book Club discussion hosted as always by MJ Franklin. He and his guests are discussing a psychological thriller titled The Catch. MJ or For Video. Hello and welcome to another Book Club episode of the Book Review podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm an editor here at the New York Times Book Review, and for this month's Book Review Book Club, we're talking about The Catch, the debut novel by the poet and memoirist, Yurisad Daily Ward. The catch is many things at once. It's a psychological thriller, a grief novel, a tale of sisterhood. It peaks into publishing, and it poses ideas of isolation and care. It's also experimental and metafictional and completely mind-bending and mind-boggling. It's a book that makes you think there is a lot here. I need to talk to someone about this because I want to make sure I even understand what is going on, and that is exactly what we're here to do. Talk about it amongst friends. Speaking of, joining me in the studio to talk about The Catch are two voices that you know and love. Both fellow editors here at the Book Review. First, we have Jen Harlan, who you may remember from our conversation about orbital at the beginning of the year. Welcome back, Jen. Thanks so much for having me. I am so excited to dig into this book. There's a lot to dig into. Also with us is Sadie Stein, who last joined the Book Club to discuss Play World by Adam Ross a few months ago. Sadie, welcome. Thank you. I'm very excited to talk about this one. And before we dive into the conversation, you know the drill. We have a few admin notes up top. First, at the end of the episode, we will reveal our August Book Club book. So stay with us until the end to find out what we're reading next. And second, there will be spoilers in this conversation. There are so many twists and turns that number one, I don't even know what's real. It's just even spoil. But then two, that is to say, we can't talk about this book without revealing something from the start. So to keep this accessible, we are going to keep the first half of this conversation, spoiler light. Again, there may be some foundational plot setup, spoilery info things that we mentioned. But we will save the big twists and the second half of the book to the second half of the conversation. So, two zero in adventure, listen to the whole episode, listen to the first half and then pause for the second half. Listen to the new event and go read the book and then come back to us up to you. But consider this your spoiler alert. And without further ado, let's dive in. To get us started, can someone tell us a brief elevator pitch synopsis? What is this book about? What is the catch about? I can take this one. So as MJ mentioned, this book is a psychological thriller about twin sisters Clara and Dempsey who are in their 30s living in London. Clara is a very successful novelist who has just had this auto fictional book that has come out and made a big splash. She's a motivational speaker, influencer, and then Dempsey is more isolated. She is socially awkward. She does data entry for a medical foot health clinic. And when the sisters were babies, their mother disappeared. She went missing, is presumed to be dead. And the sisters were separated and adopted by different families. They were estranged for a lot of their childhood. And now in adulthood, they have this kind of strained relationship. And one day Clara sees a woman in London who appears to be their mother at the same age she was when she disappeared, which is the same age the twins are now. She thinks that this is their mother who has come back. Dempsey isn't so sure. And it sets off this cascading series of events that takes them through wild twists and turns in London, none of which I will give away quite yet. I think that was a beautiful synopsis. That was incredible. Sadie, is there anything that we should add? Gosh, hard to add to that. It was quite comprehensive. I guess the only thing I'd say is that when they do encounter the figure who may or may not be their mother of their same age, she immediately gets involved in their lives in a way which is both a dream and a nightmare. She becomes Clara's manager essentially. She becomes her stylist. She becomes her roommate. And she begins to take control of every part of her life. It's really sinister and eerie. And yet a dream for someone who's been longing for an absent mother her whole life. And then I also just wanted to mention quickly the meta fictional aspects. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that even is? Yes, he's did a little bit. Great point. So as I mentioned, Clara is an author. She has written shortly before the book starts this best-selling novel called Evidence, which we could talk about that title for. Signposts. Signposts. Like flashing light. Which is as we learn from the commentary from people at her book events, many of which we witness in the book, a sort of an itself, meta fictional, possibly fantasy, possibly autobiographical book. The story of what happened to her and Dempsey and to their mother. She has changed most of the names, but the story itself, he's very closely to what happened in their life. And you actually have chapters of Evidence that appear throughout the novel, The Catch, which fill in some of the details of what might be Serene's story. And yeah, weird stuff happens. Like a chapter is a letter. Yeah, Clara's adoptive mother finds a letter that she says was written by Serene and left for the twins that replicates word-for-word a chapter in the novel that Clara has written. Yeah, and so like word-for-word it is the same. And then just the arc of the novel gets at some of the arc of the hidden past of their family. There's a lot of overlap happening and you're nervous. You're not sure who is writing whom, basically, correct? Yeah, I think that sums it up. Well, let's just dig in. So I was going to say with the synopsis out of the way. I want to hear broad strokes of how you thought about the book, love it, hate it, did you even understand it? And I actually want to go first to get the conversation started because I personally found this book both hypnotic and challenging. And I was both excited and nervous to select it for book club. And that's because there's something for everyone and there's something for everyone to hate. And maybe that's too strong, not hate, but there's something that like that you brush up against that it feels challenging. And that off-out intentional, but like we have two pretty, in my opinion, unlikable protagonists. And I don't say that to start off an unlikable character discourse. I just mean both of these characters say and do pretty mean they negative things to themselves and to others. And especially to each other. Especially to each other. And they make a lot of questionable choices. So they're hard to be around even as they are, I think, very compelling characters. And then you have the formal play and the meta fictional aspects and you're never totally sure where you are or what's happening at any point in the novel. And so the book feels to me the opposite of accessible. And yet the reason why I was excited to choose it is because I think it's so ambitious and it's trying something so different. And I got the sense that like here is someone trying something new who has opened up the literary toolbox and is just grabbing everything that they can to find new ways to tell this story. And I really admired that. And big picture I was just very enchanted by it. So I never knew what was going on. But I was hooked by it. But I know that that might not be everyone's cup of tea. So I'm especially interested to know broad strokes. What you thought about this. Well, I actually think this is why it's a perfect book club choice. And I hope a lot of people are reading along and reading it with their book clubs because as you say there's so much you need to share with other people to question your own perceptions or just say am I getting this wrong? Am I missing something? I think a lot of how you respond to this novel depends on your enjoyment of unreliable narrators because there are not one not two but three unreliable narrators. Lying to themselves, lying to each other, lying to us. Exactly. So I initially was wary of that. But then I got really swept up. The other thing that's interesting is it begins in the voice of Clara the writer and it's so much more poetic. And in some ways disjointed an experimental voice. And then when we move on to Dempsey's narration, we realize it's completely different. And I had thought I was like gosh, I don't know if I can stick with this much poetry. But then I saw she was totally in command of it. And there are genuinely beautiful poetic passages. But again, there's something for all of you. For your reading experience, what element finally brought you in? You said you started off, you weren't sure and then you got intrigued. What hooked you? Well, the initial siding of the mother just is very intriguing. But I think what really started it for me was when the sisters first interacted. Can you tell us a little bit more plot-wise? Just walk us through her. Sure. So after Clara has had this encounter with a woman whom she has convinced is her mother, inexplicably 30 years old. And - And who she is from a story. - She is feeling a Rolex. (laughing) And she, by the way, looks much more like the mother. She's considered the beautiful one. She's very tall like their mother, as well as having in some ways drawn the better straw in the adoption stakes, although that becomes debatable too, like everything. But to the outer eye, she's had a luckier time of it. So she comes to Dempsey's house to tell her this amazing thing, that she assumes will be of equal interest to her. Dempsey is enraged, defensive, weary, we immediately see her own neuroses at work. Each of them is, I would say, a hot mess in different ways. The Dempsey narration I also thought was often very funny. She's obsessed with all these influencers. (laughing) And she has this kind of guru, Dr. Rayna Panelli, whom she quotes constantly. - The world's worst therapist and reminded me of the terrible therapist in Big Swiss. If either of you have read that. - I haven't read that one. - Oh my gosh, it's so good. And also the therapist in that book is insane and bad. - And has boundary issues. Oh, and also in play world. - Yes, oh my gosh, so there's greater faith. - About the therapist's boundaries. (laughing) - What about you, John? How did you feel about this book? - I think similarly to both of you, I've been trying to describe it to a few people. And I feel like the words I keep coming back to are disorienting and wild, both of which could mean it's really engaging and also could be really off-pitting. And I think for me, Sadie, I felt similarly, when you start in Clara's voice, there are parts of the writing. They're really beautiful and poetic. The author is a poet. She clearly has a real command of language. There are also parts that are very funny. But I found myself struggling to find something to grab onto and then I think when Dempsey comes in and is the voice of reason like the author to say, what are you talking about? This doesn't make any sense. Our mother is dead. Even if she were alive, she would be 60 now. It gave me sort of a portal and to be like, okay, it's not just me. There's gonna be some balance in here. And from there I was able to be along for the ride. And I think for me what kept me going was, I spent so much of this book just being like, what is happening and not in a bad way in a way that kept me intrigued and kept me wanting to follow the twists and turns which just get wilder and wilder as the book goes on. And then as I was trying to describe it to, I finished the book while on a trip with some friends and I was trying to describe it to them. Every time you think you know what it is, it's like a puzzle box and every time you think you figured it out, then something clicks in it, everything revolves again and you find yourself in another space and I just kept reading to find out what happens. - I was in that same boat. I think this is a book where if you don't mind being lost for long periods of time, you will like this book. And if you don't like feeling rudderless in a reading experience, this book is not for you. I liked, yeah, that puzzle box aspect. And for me, the anchor for me was the big picture. I never knew at any given point or with any individual scene what's happening. I could tell that all of these pieces were coming together to form a big hole. In my mind, it was a strange psychological legotower where like each piece I was very confused by, but the tower it was constructed, it was constructing, I was just transfixed by. - I think what's also interesting is, I know I just described Dempsey as the kind of voice of reason there, but that really shifts throughout the book, too. And you start off at one point thinking who the reasonable character is and who the diluted one is. And then those lines all get really blurry and everyone's sense of reality and what is reasonable, keep shifting throughout the book. And then you find yourself on wild rides with Dempsey or how can you not see what is happening here or how can you be getting swept along, particularly when it comes to the therapist and some things that happen there. - Where are other influencers, she has a crush on this guy, Jack Spratt, who's a fitness influencer. - Incredible name. - Absolutely. - Who's the beauty one, Maria Twinnett, who she slavishly gets all her makeup tips and buys them in exactly the colors that this woman says to use. And her self perception varies a lot from seeing to seeing. - Or within scenes, there's a scene where she has put out all of this makeup and she's going to an event and she feels radiant and she carries this confidence. And then something happens and in that same scene, she goes to the bathroom and she looks at herself on the mirror and she is horrified. I can't believe I stepped outside like this. So in addition to the book's larger picture shifting, just their own self perception and confidence changes wildly to use the word that Jen said. - There's a lot of interesting things about beauty and self perception. And perception generally, there's a whole through line about their hair and their mother's hair. And I won't get too into it, but the adoptive mother who is very into chemical straightening. And there, it's a whole plot line of its own. So again, I won't spoil anything. - Well, I was gonna ask later what themes arose for you, but before we get there, I'm gonna give you time to brainstorm. I just wanted to read some reader comments because this month we've been talking about the book online with readers and the New York Times community. We have an article up headline book club, read The Catch by Yerosodalea Award with the book review. There's a conversation building there and here are just a few comments that I wanted to read. Simon from both Durham and Tokyo says, "This is an unforgettable book, huge, brilliant and original. The overwhelming impression I got from it is raw power. To use one of the books on metaphors, it feels like a river in flood, apt at any moment to smash to the levies of social and literary convention." Jillian from Colorado says, "Well, I just finished this mind-bender of a book and can't help but feel I've been punked by Yerosodalea Award. But in the best way possible, I just didn't know which way was up the whole time I was reading." But when she continues on a little bit, the novel is highly entertaining, however, some of the overtones I think what was going for, regarding the power we have as women to choose ourselves, not forcing ourselves to fit a mold of motherhood, breaking trauma cycles, etc, got lost in the swirling atmosphere of the novel. None of these messages really sunk in for me and I got lost in the soup of the nonlinear narrative. Jean from Rockford Michigan says, "I feel mixed about the book. Part of me loved the drama and mystery that was woven into the story with the sisters and the mom, never really knowing who was real and wanting to keep reading to figure out the truth of each character. So when I got to the ending, I was disappointed. I'm going to skip over a little bit to avoid spoilers, but she continues. The part I connected with was the experience of grief and how it contained you and your relationships of people since you have such extreme emotions that can be new and scary and are so difficult to express to other people." And last one I know I'm reading a lot, but these comments are really good. And that is Kylie from Dallas says, "What captured me the most is the realness of character experiences that I could relate to, being a biracial and trans-racial adoptee, the questions of identity and all the ways that she has a person, the journey of loving your hair, letting go of beauty standards, you can't naturally fit into grief. I've buried both of my parents, losing a parent as a child changes things. Motherhood, there are days when it feels like choosing your children means losing parts of yourself. Sometimes just being woman can feel like drowning because realistically, can we do it all? In serene, we see the fear having to take advantage of the situation before it takes advantage of you. The author blurs the lines of reality, but the issues she tackles are very real. So those are just a few reader comments, again, continue to go talk online, but just wanted to share those. And I guess to dig more into our conversation here, I posed that question, were there themes that really stood out to you that were really salient? I'll follow you really here. - Yeah, say you touched a little bit on beauty, which I think to me is tied up with one of the main things I took away from this book was this idea of being, both of the sisters being really disconnected from their physical bodies. There are a lot of moments where they talk about their body as an object that they are inhabiting, but are not in control of. I think when we first meet Clara at the beginning, she has used some of the money from her book to get veneers and she talks about how her new teeth have made her a large smiling structure is how she describes herself and then later in that same opening scene where she's at a book event and she's speaking, she says, "The mouth that I am using makes another joke that makes everyone laugh a little more." And also says later, "My hair is wavy today, blown out and decadent. My face is contoured, gorgeously lit, smooth as a mannequin. I look like the thing with eyes on the back of the book." And Dempsey in a sort of different way feels, also if it has this dysmorphic idea of what she looks like, we mentioned how her perception of herself shifts and she turns to therapy and influencers and porn and all sorts of different places to try and find some way to get physically into her body. And there's an incident which we may talk about in the second half of the podcast where she is able to connect with her physical form but then that also gets twisted. And this to me seems to be tied up in both this physical separation that the girls had from their mother when they were babies and then also the physical separation from each other as children that has now manifested in this really traumatic and disturbing way with their relationship to themselves. - That was the thing I was thinking about too and you said dysmorphia, but it also made me think that of dissociation, which is a thing that happens with grief and how, for me, I don't think those two things naturally or necessarily come together, but in this book they certainly do. And that added to this world of what's going on is this psychological thing that's happening with these characters. Is there a greater grief thing happening? Is there a supernatural thing happening? What is going on? Did you? That's just the theme. That could be the title of this episode. What is going on? Because you've got what poetry, magical realism, science fiction, and one of the themes for me definitely about the relationships of siblings. And even though these two women have literally been separated for most of their lives, the fact that there are these people in the world who share something fundamental with you, which no one else can truly understand. And they actively, I would say it's not too strong to say they hate each other. One of my favorite lines in the whole book is when Clara is talking about Dempsey and she says, I love her, but I hate her. I all the things her. And that to me felt very emblematic both of their relationship and also anyone who has siblings. There's no one who can get under your skin, who can drive you more crazy, but also no one who you love and who knows you. Exactly. And I don't want to put you on the spot. But since you and Jay are an actual twin, I am an actual twin. How did you feel about the twin representation? So the twin representation felt so heartbreaking to me because my brother is my best friend. He sometimes he calls me this and I hate it when he says it. I can't believe him repeating this on a hot mate, but he calls me his womb mate because he knows it makes me uncomfortable. That's the kind of brother he is. He's like, I was teasing me and supporting me. And like, we are there for each other through and through. And I can't imagine fighting with him in this way, let alone to have this type of separation just juncture for my twin brother. I do have a joke that I used to say that he was my mortal enemy, my nemesis. And it was like a Harry Potter Voldemort like neither can live what the other survived situation. And then I stopped that and I started saying not he's not my nemesis anymore. He's my friend to be grew up together. I would say, but I would not acknowledge that he was my twin brother. Anyway, this is all to say, I'm very close to my brother. And you are virtually identical twins. We are. You are identical twins. So the jig must have been up to a certain degree. Which was like part of the winking fun part about this and the joy of having a twin and so to read about these twins who are so combative. And then you get their backstory and you really do get the sense of betrayal and hurt that happens between the two of them. And I just kind of imagine it. But I think there's a richness there too. And I both twins are weird and interesting and in life and a literature. Exactly. And so I liked having twins as the anchor in this book. But enough about me and twinhood and my own experiences. We're going to jump back into the book. But first, I think we should take a quick break. And we're back. This is the book review podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm chatting with Jen Harlan and Sadie Stein. And we're talking about the catch by Eurasia Daily Word. Sadie in the brick, you said something really interesting that I'm going to tell you can you tell us again. Sure. I was just saying that if there's anyone out there who for whatever reason is tempted to put this book down, it's just too much work. It's too confusing. Stick with it. You may not like it, but I feel like to get the full experience of this book is absolutely necessary to read to the last page. And so we're going to dive into the big spoilers, the twists at the end. So consider this your spoiler alert. Now that we're in the second half, we're going to fully dive in. If you haven't read the book and you do care about spoilers, now it's the time to pause and stop. If you don't care about spoilers, if you've already read it, let's continue on. So in the second half, Clara and Dempsey finally start acting like sisters after beefing for however many pages. And they're brought together in part from a discovery that's reen. This figure who's integrated herself into their life in a variety of ways, they figure out that she's a ghost of sorts from the past. And that in the presence, the sisters are at a critical inflection point. They're at the moment when ghost reen meets the man who will become the twins' father and that to exercise ghost reen, they need to stop her from having that hook up. But in doing so, they could erase their own existence. And so it's this sort of time loop paradox. And then the book ends with not one ending, but several different endings. Am I getting that right? Oh yeah. As best as I can tell. It becomes very choose your own adventure. And literally there's a list of you think you've reached the end and then there's a list of 11 other possible ways that the story could go. So I want to ask a two-part question. One is what did you make of that twist? And then two, what do you think that does to the arc of the book and the ideas of the novel? Where does this take us conceptually, mathematically? And what does it indicate about the project of the book? I'm just curious, like this is a huge twist. And the book has been playing, affectionately all along, but this is a big thing. So what did you make of it? I think I felt once I read it that it had been foreshadowed. In a way, it was almost early. If they have played a lot with the idea of sexual boundaries throughout the book, and there is a moment where it does start to veer into incest. And so you knew she was seeding something with that because everything is deliberate. So in that regard, I don't think I felt shocked. I found it satisfying, actually. Really? What was that I was feeling about it? Well, first of all, it explained a few things. You kind of your first actual clarity into the plot. I was like, "Oh, okay, this I could metabolize. I can describe this to someone." I also, I'm a sucker for the old time travel quantum elite paradox. Do you change the past for about your birth? That would have been a future. So the butterfly is we exactly. So that I'm just, I'm cheap that way. I'm a cheap date for a time loop. So that immediately delighted me. What about you, John? What did you think of the twist? Well, you described it. I said, as best I can tell that is what happened because even as the twist was happening, I still found it slippery, I think, because we played with-- That's a great term slippery. That's what this book is. It is. I just could, every time I thought I'd maybe gotten my hands around it, it would veer off in another direction. And even when the book morphs into this kind of magical, real-list thriller, heist, they're drugging people, they're putting on disguises. There's a twist in a hotel. It becomes a kind of supernatural spy thriller, which I did find very entertaining. But I also found the tonal shift and the shift in the sisters, particularly Dempsey, a little bit hard to fully buy into, just because there is, particularly with her, there's this very dramatic shift where all of the-- and with both of the sisters where they've been so in their own silos and unable to speak a common language. And then it felt like all of a sudden, now we're allies and we're convinced that this woman who we were all-- they were both being drawn to, but especially Claire in this way. Suddenly, they're both convinced that she is. A fake is a ghost. And then it also brings up these really thorny questions where when they're talking about how they are determined to stop Syreen from getting pregnant so that they will not be haunted by the spectra anymore, but also knowing. And in Claire's case, even wanting to erase their own existence, which there's something that's both very triumphant about the fact that they have finally united and that now you're off again on this adventurous home, but also something really tragic and sad that feels like a real letdown of the story that they succumbed to the same dark pole that maybe also pulled their mother away when she was there age. It's sort of like walking the line between like, is this a vindication? Have they defeated a ghost or is this a defeat? And they have been lost in the same way that their mother was? I do agree with you for sure that and with that commenter who felt that at points, some of the larger intention of the book was intention with the very heavy plating. And I think what you're describing is a case of that because she's touching on so many fascinating themes. And if they do have to be flattened out a little bit in the maelstrom of events, let it occur. Though I agree that it all felt very sudden. And then you said something that I was like, well, maybe it's landing, which is the question of, are they succumbing to the forces that also target it their mother and that their mother drowned in? Or are they defeating those forces? And I like the ambiguity, but I didn't like the suddenness of some of the turnings. Yeah, I think that's where I want to just a little bit more maneuvering to get us there. I think the shift just felt a little abrupt to me. Bay Gray, do you think the ambiguity is interesting? And also this book talks a lot about mental illness you find out at their at various points. Clara has been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. That commission is coerced to die-go-serie. And only mentioned once. So can you really pin that? I don't know. Another thing that while you were talking occurred to me. One thing that's fun about the book is as you say it's beneficial in that. Clara is writing these books and saying "assinine" and we know often very insane things on the stage and she's frequently drunk. And audiences are just responding rapturous. And I think she's incredibly wise and brilliant. And I almost wonder if there was and there's also a lot of kind of mockery at the piety of the publishing industry. So I started to wonder if just now if maybe there was a Charlie Kaufman and adaptation thing going where they give into the conventions of the genre where it's almost like "oh you want you want plot, you want resolution?" "Oh I'll give you plot." That's the kind of clever trick of this novel I think which is every storytelling convention that we're like "oh is it too sudden or like every expectation we have when we're bristle against it?" You feel like she's one step ahead and you're like maybe this is part of the idea of the book. And I do think especially when you get to the end of the epilogue the again this list of like 11 possible versions of what could have happened which are supposed to be written from the perspective of the psychic maybe slash con artist that they meet the Demsie meets on a rock on a rock nursing a baby. Yeah. I do feel like I got to that point and I was like oh the writer is like having a lot of fun with this and I am having fun with her. It felt like there are parts of the book that that seemed to take itself very seriously. And then at that there are moments where Zianne were oh no we're just we're pulling out all the stops and that I really enjoyed being along the ride for that. Can I tell you my thought about the ending and the list of multiple other possible endings because at one point you see that yeah that psychic has written a list of other possible endings to Clara and Demsie's story and the one that we have just read is crossed off as if that's the one that the writer chose in this particular time but the story could be told in other ways and I read that and I sat up which is an experience I had many many times already reading this where I was like what is happening every nerve is firing because for me the story isn't necessarily about Clara and Demsie it's about this experience of grief and it got to that metaphictional idea of how do we tell stories of loss and years of daily word gave this interview with NPR where she said that the book was inspired by her own loss and that she lost her mother when she was in her 20s and the book came from the question of what would happen if she ran into her mother what her mother be the same age where they be friends what would be going on so the idea that this is an expression of grief which is so hard to vocalize how do you put raw grief and towards on a page and so for me seeing that list was like okay the narrator is saying let's experiment this is a feeling I want to convey this is an idea I want to get at what are the possible ways that we can even gesture at that what are the approaches that we can take if I get as closest to the truth and I found that exciting and maybe I'm reading too closely into it or maybe I'm interpreting it that weird but I think that's a triumph of the novel which is just how open it is and how both fun and heady it is and I loved it well I think that also gets something we haven't touched on and the way that Clara slash her set talks about storytelling and writing and rewriting in the book when we open Clara has written this very successful book called evidence which we could talk about that title forever we can talk about the title the cast forever well so she she Clara has written this novel called evidence which is a metafictional auto fictional version of the story of her mother and what happened to her and to Clara and Dempsey that some people think is fantasy some people think is autobiographical and then there's a moment later in the book where a there's there's two things I want to say one is that there's a moment where you find out that serene the ghost has maybe been possessing Clara the whole time she was writing and that serene has been the one crafting the version of her story that has come out and there's also a moment where Clara talks about well if I were going to tell this story differently how might I do it there would be more of the twins more of the story would focus on them which is what happens in this in the book that we've just read there would be less of serene I would call it the catch and it would be a hot pink book and if you have a physical copy of the catch it is indeed if you take off the jacket hot pink and so I think there's also something really fun happening where both within the world of the book and outside of it we as readers there's a rewriting a re contextualizing a changing of perspective that keeps happening and is fun I think to imagine well if you just shift one tiny thing or if you shift one perspective like how does that change the story I'm glad you brought up the book the physical book because it's a perfect cover for this book the jacket is literal clouds it's very ambiguous and then you at the hot pink book underneath and I also wanted to put in a plug for the audiobook because the author reads it herself and she's an actor as well as a writer and she brings so much humor to it and the way she differentiates the voices is really effective and I loved reading it too but I think it's one that that adapts exceptionally well so go listen to that everyone but on that note we're running out of time and we have a fun third section that I want to get to but before we pivot I want to ask are there any last things anyone wants to mention I feel like we haven't talked a lot about the side there are a lot of there's a colorful cast of side characters in this book some of whom are more fully developed than others but the one that I found probably the most intriguing and engaging was the grifter therapist dr. Raina Pinelli and the the spoiler that I alluded to earlier is that Dempsey goes on this spiritual retreat which seems to clearly be a scam for the quote-unquote air quotes doctor she's basically enrolled yes yes and I expect to get in this expensive retreat that her therapy again big air quotes that you can't see if you're listening therapist who has essentially bullied her into doing this but on the last night she's there with a group of other women and she starts to really come out of her shell it's really beautiful to see her start to make actual friends and to bond with people and then at the end of the weekend they have what Dempsey thinks is a very profound experience which is that essentially the therapist has them all lie in the floor in a room and engage in a session of mutual masturbation it's physically and emotionally ecstatic moment for Dempsey where she connects with her body feels connected to these women and then they've formed a group chat and they're going to stay best friends forever and have zoom check-ins every week and then one of the women from the retreat who leaves the room during this experience basically accuses the therapist of medical misconduct and the other women all side with her they publicly speak out in allyship and it puts Dempsey in this really heartbreaking position where she had what she thought was this really joyful moment of progress which her own mother figure yes yes so much transfer is happening there and then she gets roped in by the therapist and her weird husband who are trying to get her to speak out publicly to support her trying salvage her career and I found that whole sequence really moving and sad and interesting I'm glad you brought that up because that also connects to one of the big heartbreaking things about this book for me and about these sisters is that at every point they are hurting but they're also being taken advantage of by various people and Clara you get the sense that her publishing house is not taking care of her in the way that they should and this ghost serene is this really empowering figure saying you are a great author who is commanding these big audiences they should be pushing for you more and they should be booking you in these bigger stages and really looking out for you and there's a very young and eager publishing professional that I am I think her name is that I'm rooting for but also you get the sense M.O. is not the first choice and is the youngest person at this publishing house and here's his big author and at the same time she's finally getting cared for by this ghost but then ghost serene is taking so much money from her and something similar is happening with dumpsy too again she has this mother figure that she in this profound experience with the therapist but then the therapist is abusing her and also trying to use her to clear her own name in advance her own career and the feeling that I got from these sisters there was a comment that said that this reader felt like the sisters were motivated by like rage and I felt like they were and motivate it by just like an extreme hurt and a- pain and they were looking for someone to take care of them and they never found that until the end when they were with each other. And I found that just like that arc both very compelling but also so heartbreaking. Yeah and everyone's a grifter when you think about it from the influencers of course talking other products to Dr. Reina Panelli and the reason I am saying both names is because this is how she's referred to the throughout the book. Good character. Yeah, to various seers and mediums and um yeah because the series like I can help you but bring this money and bring this and bring your like like it's it's. But and the guy who's their mom's maybe boyfriend who she was living with who's like I can bring you her passport and documents but you have to give me 20,000 pounds and also knowing how these sisters adoptive parents didn't really care for them. And in some cases in Demsys case not just didn't care for her but sexually abused her. And in the case of of Clara's mom both emotionally abused and in one case you could argue also physically there's a moment where she without Demsys dad's permission tries to use chemical straightener on her that burn her scalp. So all of the people who were supposed to take care of these sisters at any point in their life have just completely it's a complete dereliction of duty and of care. A bit of a down to end. And that is a thing about destiny. She comes and it comes and we come around. I love that. Well, before we leave, I want to get to our third section recommendations. As always, we want to share some books that we think will pair well with the catch. And I'm going to follow your lead on why you are recommending a book and why you think it will pair well. Maybe it's another twisty, metaphictional thriller. Maybe it's a book about twins. Maybe it's something else. I defer to you. I follow you. I just want to know what would you recommend readers pick up after they finish the catch? I'm going to start with you, Jen. So I have two things that came to mind for me. Thinking a lot about the sort of psychological thriller aspect, the uncanny doubling and also the way that this book deals with race and with the publishing industry. One thing that I definitely thought about a lot as I was reading this book was the other black girl by Zakia Delayla Harris, which is about this girl Nella who is an editorial assistant at a publishing house. She is the only black editorial employee there. And then there is another woman who is hired Hazel who shows up and very quickly at first. Nella isn't really sure how to feel about her. She's jealous. She wants to be her friend. She's resentful. And then some weird twists start happening. There are some nefarious things that are happening with Hazel and you're not sure. Is she there for good, for evil? I don't want to spoil too many things. But is again a very twisty and meaty book that has a lot to chew on that I saw a lot of parallels with this one. Can I throw a piggyback thing to that recommendation, which is one, love that book. And it was adapted into a TV series, which I haven't seen, but people also really loved. But my piggyback recommendation is Zakia went on the critic in her public's podcast, which is hosted by the critic, Mervé Emre. And she talked about what she wanted to do in that book about writing and editing, about the process of adapting it from page to screen. And I love that conversation. So I wanted to throw that there to go read the book, but then also go listen to that podcast too. And then the other one I was going to recommend speaking of unreliable narrators and descents into madness, which also has a really great series adaptation is the haunting of Hill House, especially Jackson, which like setting wise and totally is very different from this book. But Sadie, you mentioned that there are a lot of like Gothic hallmarks in this book. There are in the haunting of Hill House as well, which is about a young woman, Eleanor Vance, psychologically fragile, who goes to this mysterious allegedly haunted country house, is part of a group of people who have volunteered to assist a professor of the paranormal in his research. And as the house starts to work its dark magic and take over her psyche, the minds of the people in the house, you follow her descent into madness. But is it or is it? Yes, it is one of those books where I read it. And I was awe I now understand what so many people ever since then have been everyone's just trying to be surely Jackson, like the first and best ever do it. It has one of my favorite all time opening lines. And that's just because of a weird tag. It's two words in the opening sentence where she says there's a long winding opening. But in the middle she says Hill House not saying stood in the house hiding darkness within and that not saying is such an economical but perfect little it tells you everything you need to know and opens up some I love it. I love it so much. So good. And also both the book and I would say the Mike Flanagan series adaptation, which is plot wise very different from the original novel, but keeps a lot of the same elements, both really reward second readings or viewings. Good to know. The original movie is good too. Oh, I haven't seen it. I have to watch that. Really well cast. Claire Bloom is theo is perfect. What about you, Sadie? I thought of a few. First of all, wish her safe at home by Stephen Benatar. I don't know this. I mean, either it's really one of the ultimate unreliable narrators. It's definitely a descent into madness book and it's definitely ultimately quite tragic story about a woman being quite obviously take an advantage of, but it's fascinating and it's propulsive and it's weird. He had a lot of trouble getting it published because it was so weird or because it was weird and depressing and strange, but New York review classics brought it back a few years ago. And I highly recommend seeking it out. The other ones I thought of let's see a ratio which. Oh yes, that's a great many of you will know as the basis of American fiction again, skewering the piety of the white publishing industry and a previous book. So go listen to the episode, we'll link to it in the show notes. Well, speaking of previous book club picks, while we were talking, I thought play world. Also, if we want to, if you want to read more about kids who feel really insufficiently protected by the adults in their lives, that's definitely a motif. But the other one I had was the House on the Strand by Daphne de Morriex. We needed a De Morrie on this list. And this one is Gothic, but also has a time travel element is trippy. She read it in 69 and she was being happy to the drive, but it's great. Daphne de Morriex and Shirley Jackson mentioned on this podcast, what a murder is real. I love this. And I've only read Rebecca, which I know you. Which is like my favorite novel, which I reread annually. So if you've only read Rebecca like me, go check this out. I know I'll be adding this to my reading list, but thank you for those recommendations. I have a few because weird grief novels are my specialty. So the first one I wanted to mention is grief is the thing with feathers by Max Porter. This is one of my favorite all-time books. I find it so moving. It is about a family and there's a father, two sons and a mother, and the mother dies, and the book is narrated in three perspectives. One is by father. The other is by the boys, which is the shared consciousness perspective of both boys. And then in their grief of strange figure comes to live with them. And that is crow and crow is grief incarnate. And it's this figure like ghost serene that is both abusive and violent, but also supportive. And it the book is just this moving account of literally how we live with grief after a loss. And I love it so much. The next is the furrows by Nambali Sarpel. This is also a strange what is going on novel. It opens with a woman named C. And when she was 12, she was swimming with her brother at the beach. A storm came. The brother got swept out to see C tried to save him, but then couldn't get him. She blocks out wakes up on the beach. And then after out the brother is gone. That's just one version of his disappearance in the book. There are many other versions of how he dies and or disappears. And then you get another section see his grown up. And she starts seeing a man that looks like her brother who disappeared. But he's not the brother or at least I hope not because then C start sleeping with this man. And they have a weird relationship. And there's like tragic some type of the calamity happens, but there are multiple versions of that. And it's so weird, but it opens with the line. I don't want to tell you what happened. I want to tell you how it felt, which I feel like is also the ethos of the catch. And it's just the furrows is a great book. And it was one of our best books of the year. Then there's dead and long beach California. I've been in a blackburn, which is about a woman named Coral, whose brother kills himself. And in her grief, two things happen. One is that instead of telling people that her brother has died, she starts impersonating him online. So keeping him alive virtually, which you should not do. And so then she's going about this Ruze her life's heart unravel. But then also, Coral is the author of a science fiction book and the narrator of "Dead in Long Beach, California" is a chorus of the robots in Coral's book. And so it's this weird novel playing with grief and dissociation, sounds similar, but catch. And then lightning, I'm just gonna mention a few titles who I'm talking along, but if you love novels about twins, please read the vanishing half by Brett. And then death takes me by Christina Rivera Garza is a book that came out earlier this year and that's a very trippy experimental crime thriller. And then we can't talk about weird big twists of books published this year without mentioning audition by Katie Kimmero. Good point. - So many great things to add to my reading list. - This is a really solid list. - Well, I think as we said at the top, there is something in this book for everyone. And so I think which everything you find in here that you like there is a book, another book for you. - Oh, yeah, I'm there with that. - Unfortunately, that's all the time we have for today. Sadie, Jen, thank you so much. This is really fun and very helpful in making sense of what this book is. - I feel like you opened a lot of doors for me. - Same. I feel like I've been ever since I closed this book. I have been needing to dig into it with people and you're the best people to do it with. - And I wanna say also a huge thank you to everyone who read with us online. Again, we have an article up on the New York Times's website, Headlined a Book Club, read The Catch by Yurica Daily Ward with the book review, continue the conversation there. As promised, now is the time to reveal our August book. In August, we will be reading Wild Dark Shore by Charlotte McConaughey. That is a twisty novel about a stranger who washes up on shore of a remote island, a family who lives there that are hiding secrets in all the ways that they intertwine. It's really fun. I hope you'll read with us. We have an article up on the New York Times's website, Headlined Book Club, read Wild Dark Shore by Charlotte McConaughey with the book review, add your thoughts and comments there. We can't wait to talk about this book with you, but until then, have you reading. - That was MJ Franklin in conversation with Sadie Stein and Jennifer Harlan, two of our colleagues here at the book review, talking about the psychological thriller The Catch. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times book review. Thank you for listening.