190. Bonus episode: The cast of Game of Thrones: The Mad King join the WhatsOnStage Podcast for an exclusive chat

In a rehearsal room in East London, a group of creatives are turning the gigantic vision behind George R.R. Martin's Westeros into something that can work on the stage. On this bonus episode of the Watson Stage podcast, we're meeting the cast of Game of Thrones the Mad King. The Royal Shakespeare Company's world premiere adaptation by Duncan McMillan, directed by Dominic Cook. We went down to the rehearsal room earlier this year to speak to the cast about what it's like building this world from scratch, working with puppetry and period dance and everything else in between, and what it's like taking on characters that fans have only ever imagined on the page. Let's get to it. Better to start with the Mad King himself, King Aries II Targaryen, one of the pivotal characters not simply in the story of Robert's Rebellion, but also the Game of Thrones books and TV show. He's played by Michael Schaefer, who you will hear talking first. He's joined in this section of the interview by Maria Gale, who plays the pivotal character of Queen Riala Targaryen, as well as Lady Shella Went. You have to just treat it as any other brand new play, and so I don't know, that's the way I'm trying to approach it at least, to sort of not have the weight of all of that because of course you're aware of it, but I don't think that helps in trying to create it. And of course we have George's representative in the room with us, and she keeps us on track and makes sure that we're sticking to the canon and everything that's in the books. And so she makes sure, as well as of course Duncan and Dominic, that we're not going too far off track, but we're very much creating those characters for ourselves and what feels right and real for the play. Yeah, I think it's a really incredible opportunity in that, you know, the stories are so well known and so loved, and there was such a huge response to these stories for a very deep reason, I think, you know, it's in our zeitgeist somehow. It's really taken people somewhere, but I feel like what is wonderful is that we, you know, Duncan, Macmillan and George R.R. Martin and our director Dominic Cook and ourselves, we kind of have this agency here whereby this is also a new play. So we have all this kind of richness to draw on, but it's also new, and with that comes a responsibility where we go, yes, it's a prequel, and yes, some things are known, but what George is amazing is kind of dropping little Easter eggs of, well, was it this way or was it that way? So there is a degree of kind of agency that we have, and I think with that comes a kind of a responsibility because it is so widely loved of, well, what story do we want to tell? And I think that's where you can get discerning about what story you want to tell and how you want to tell it and why you want to tell it. And I don't think that's kind of really freeing at the same time is a responsibility, especially where, you know, these characters are concerned of how we handle it. And I find that really exciting. The pair also had a lot of lovely things to say about director Dominic Cook. I think it is a great petry dish because you've got George R.R. Martin meeting Duncan Macmillan, meeting Dominic's process, and what I love about Dominic is that he's such an actors director and he's many things as a director. He's really interested in psychology and he's really interested in our process as actors and he will get right stuck in discussing the finer points of what is motivating you, what is, you know, what you would call your obstacles, what is acting against you. And one thing that George said that fed through to the rehearsal room is, and he's very involved in the progress of what we're doing, is that, you know, writing about characters who, they become interesting because there are kind of opposing forces at work within them. So there is torsion in them, there is conflict in them, and that kind of makes the best drama. And yeah, Dominic is really interested in the intricacies of what makes us tick. And I think that's why we like these stories so much is that it's full of those kind of human traits that we recognize. Yeah, I think that's exactly right, I think what's incredible about the team that we have is that it's operating on both this kind of enormous epic scale and it will be quite a spectacle. And it really exists as a play right here, you know, almost domestic some of it, you know, and as you say, Dominic is so fantastic at the minutia, the psychology of each character and how they interact with each other. So it, for me, that's kind of amazing that certainly what we're aiming for and I think we're going to pull off, hopefully, is that you kind of get both ends of that spectrum, you know, which I think could be really exciting. And kind of unique in a way, I think sometimes you get one or the other, but yeah, so it's got real ambition in that respect, in many respects, I suppose it's very ambitious. Why is the Royal Shakespeare Theatre the perfect venue to launch the production? It's very obvious from, I guess from anyone that's read the Game of Thrones books or has seen the TV shows that there is something very Shakespearean about these stories, I suppose especially the history plays spring to mind, but actually it's so interesting that as we go through the script and we work through it, we go, oh, it's like that moment in this play, or I'm trying not to be specific about moments, but I keep seeing all these moments from Shakespeare plays and thank them at Millie's going, yep, that's there, that's there, that's there. And that's kind of fascinating, so it does feel completely perfect as the place to put this on. What's brilliant is it feels like we are surrounded and I find that really exhilarating that it's a much more immersive situation for the audience and for the actors and I really love that as a performer and there will be moments, you know, already even sitting in a rehearsal room, there are moments where I've got the chills, you know, watching some of the spectacular moments and I've thought, oh, you know, and then gone, I can't believe I'm in this, can't believe I get to be in this, I've had a lot of moments like that during rehearsals of I can't believe I actually get to be part of this and it feels right that it's up in Stratford and it feels right that it's also Duncan, alongside George, in that, yeah, it feels so Shakespearean to me and again, I probably shouldn't mention which plays but just the chess moves, you know, the kind of epic sized cast and the machinations and the intricate chess moves and the speed at which the story beats progress and then some of this language, I think Duncan's really harnessed, you know, it can go into really epic language and yet it's all like a lean-minute stake in that it's very direct and yeah, it moves very fast in some ways but in other ways it's very intricate so like the books, you really have to pay attention, but alongside that there are some moments you can kind of bask in because they're just kind of gloriously epic. Now, every king and queen needs their subjects so I think it's time to meet two of them. First up, we have their daughter-in-law, Elia Martell, played by Elizabeth Ayadelli. She is joined by Tanisha Spring, who takes on the role of the enigmatic Ashara Dane, a character only alluded to yet never seen on screen as well. It's Tanisha that you'll hear talking first. There's so much details in the characters, like even now the Reddit still popping off of new theories that I'm reading every day, they're very fun and the story is very character-led. George has gone to such detail with the characters that he knows what they were doing, what they wouldn't do, which is amazing for us to discover and find their journey through that. I think it's just nice to like sometimes when you're doing a new show, you're making a lot out as you go along and I guess there's still an element of that, but George has created this whole universe, so whenever you're doing research, you're kind of going, oh, there's already like a depth of knowledge available to us and it makes the process so much for me personally easier because it means that that world that we're creating is so lived and so already available to certain people who have read the books and stuff like that, which is a nice thing. The pair had a lot to say about the scale and the brand of the Game of Thrones universe. but we wanted to know where did they start with their introduction to the show and its stories. You hear the name of it, you're going, "Oh, okay, that's probably going to be big." And then on day one, there were quite a few people and I was just like, "Okay, this is maybe too big." But no, but all jokes aside, I think it kind of, there's so many. Whenever you make a show, there are so many moving parts. I guess as an artist, you're brought on at a specific stage, so you can't always understand the scale of that. But thankfully, we quite early on started to learn the scale and how long people have been working towards this. And I think there was a mention of something like eight years that this has kind of been in the work. So it felt kind of incredible, the size of people willing to put into this and ready to give it their best shot. Because then even though you're like the character on stage, you're kind of going, "There's at least 40 other people backstage who are doing it just as much work as I am." Which is sick, I think that's great, yeah. And just to get an sense of, like some of the book does so well, is every chapter is a different character's story and point of view. And you get that in this, and I don't think you can do that with a cast of 18, or it has to be done with a large universe of people. It has to feel like a world, yeah. A pivotal part of stepping into the world is the law that comes with it. How exactly did this play its part in rehearsals? We end up talking about George's history of his university's creative, like his actual history. There's so much detail and care into it, which actually makes you even proud of the something that you're part of. It's been tended to with care that there's so many fans that can probably educate us on it. That we are learning all this information and be able to do it justice, and they're very good at what they do. So it's quite the way in safe hands, which is. Yeah, man. When a talented people, you're like, "This is great." Yeah, this is already. Yeah, exactly what I wanted. But also because I think I walked into it kind of already as a fan of Dom's, a fan of Duncan's. And I was kind of going, "This is such a great opportunity to work with people that you respect the work of." And I think coming to the world and understanding how much George has put into it, you immediately are like, "Yes, hats off to you, babe, because you've done such due diligence." But I think that that then makes the process so much more exciting. I think I've doubted way less than any other process I've done. Because I've gone, "These are the people that are at the top of their game." And they're putting. they're like ready to do this. I was actually about to use a Yoruba word because I was like, "I can't describe it in English." It was almost like saying people who are so caring and so talented and so available to push you in the right direction, so generous and so open that that then feels very empowering, I would say. I said that to Dom last week, I was like, "Oh, this process felt quite empowering because how you handle it is very. I think it's necessary for the kind of work that we're trying to do and for the scale of work that we're trying to do." But I felt empowered the whole time knowing that they're behind it. I think it's done for no reason. It all comes character-led or story-led or to build the world or to emote. It's all for a very specific reason not just to put on a lovely show, which is obviously the end of the game. It's to serve the peace and detail work as my favourite again, like the more detail the better. There's no way to hide and that's scary but fun. One key question that I asked a lot of the cast members, what were their first impressions when reading the script? Did they know much about the story or were they going in as novices? I should preface this by now admitting I did not know the story very well or I got the audition. So it was kind of like anything could happen now. By the time I got to the end of the reading I was kind of just heartbroken, I guess, because there's so much that takes place over time. But so much that fits and reflects kind of the world at large in how we see it today and how we operate today. And the scale and magnitude of some of those world events and how they trickle down to the little people and how they trickle down to the people that we don't maybe talk about, think about. And I think when I read it I was kind of going, oh yeah, this does feel quiet. There's still evidence of this now. So I think that that was really good once I got to the end that I felt, okay, there's a reason for it now. I think sometimes it's great to just put on the show's entertainment, sometimes that's what we need. But I think also going, oh, what's the relevance to today is necessary. And when I read the script I was going, okay, there's evidence that this should be told now. Yeah. I'm a big fan of Duncan Mittman in any way. But I'm very cautious about taking jobs that involve current IP. But I like in case it's ruined. But when I read the script the first time, there was so much heart and so much honesty. And because it's a life or death situation, it pays so much service to the original material that, yeah, it's just beautiful. It's really, it's really, really heart wrenching at moments. And you root for different people at different times, even though they're enemies. And you have, it's hard to pick like who the evil person is, which is fun. But a dilemma. That's another thing. I remember reading it and being like, this is all very high. Very high friends. Yeah. It was actually quite strange. Right. But like I was like, that's going to be, I think I was kind of going, I was going to achieve that. I was like, really before the audition, I was like, that's going to be good. And then it's now also who's going to achieve that should be me. It's true, it's already high stakes. So point that good people are putting positions that make them do bad things. You can't always predict what the root is. And it's like life really. It's less of this shiny new person doing good things all the time. Because as much as we all want to be, sometimes we make mistakes. And sometimes we'll be a fan. Or sometimes we'll be an enemy or the villain in somebody else's story. And yeah, it's full of that and thick of that and really enjoyable. Anyone who knows Game of Thrones will know that the story of Ashara Dane is tied to that Ned Stark and Brandon Stark. With that in mind, it's worth introducing the two brothers. Brandon Stark is played by Luke Brady, whereas Edward Stark, or perhaps more commonly known as Ned Stark, is played on stage by Michael Abelbacker. You'll hear Brady talking first. There was a couple of weeks ago we tried to establish a dynamic between the Stark family and what that would mean. And I think straight away they've done a great job of just finding the right components, the right people that instantly have just like an understanding and respect for each other. I think the Stark seem to be kind of sort of the earth. Sort of outside of this whole kind of courtly lifestyle. But being noble, they've still got to do their duties and represent their house well. But it's incredibly fun. And straight away I've found like the best dance partners to kind of just share them both with. I think sometimes the fun thing about playing the younger version of a character that people already know quite well, or a lot of people know quite well, is the way we are as adults is completely shaped by all of our early experiences. And you're sort of filling in gaps that people may not necessarily know about. And so I think playing the younger version of someone sometimes takes off the pressure of you're not trying to emulate something and someone else has done. You're not trying to copy anything, someone else has done. You're just sort of filling in a gap and giving a flavor of why this person became who they were. And we've got quite a lot of opportunity to do a lot of that. So yeah, that's really fun. How exactly has it felt so far in the rehearsal room? You sort of know that it's going to be on a big scale. But I think until you get into rehearsals for something like this, being split across different rehearsal rooms and seeing a lot of the. I'm trying to do this without saying stuff. Seeing a lot of what's going on until you work on something of that scale, you kind of can't imagine what it's going to be like. So that's incredibly exciting. I think you said it as well, mate. There's so much space to make these characters our own and having that license to do so because they are beloved by a whole army of fans out there. But you feel incredibly supported to be able to like put your stamp on what these lives are. And yeah, I think that's it. You feel supported and just sort of giving the license to do so. So I'm just repeating the same words. But it's incredibly freeing as an actor to just sort of come in with an option and explore what that is. I suppose that is one of the things that is. It's surprising about the experience of it. i'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n yng Nghymru yn ymwyr i'n gweithio, yn ymwyr i'n gweithio, yn ymwyr i'n gweithio, yn ymwyr i'n gweithio, yn ymwyr i'n gweithio. Ymwyr i'n gweithio, yn ymwyr i'n gweithio, yn ymwyr i'n gweithio, yn ymwyr i'n gweithio. Ymwyr i'n gweithio, yn ymwyr i'n gweithio, yn ymwyr i'n gweithio, yn ymwyr i'n gweithio, yn ymwyr i'n gweithio. Ymwyr i'n gweithio, yn gweithio, yn gweithio, yn gweithio, yn ymwyr i'n gweithio. Mae'n gweld i'n gweld i'n gwybod. Mae'n gwybod i'n gwybod i'n gwybod i'n gwybod i'n gwybod i'n gwybod i'n gwybod i'n gwybod i'n g i gweithio i'n gweithio unrhyw i'n gweithio i'n gweithio unrhyw i'n gweithio unrhyw i'n gweithio unrhyw. It's all the huge themes of a Shakespeare play like tragedy and love, morality, power, ambition, all of these things, that mean you don't really need to think about anything else, it's all there for you. It's all there, isn't it for you? You almost have to kind of just get out of it, it's way in, just try and, yeah, you don't have to add too much on top of it, do you? You lean into the storytelling a bit, it just kind of does half the job for you. Yes, it's such an honour to be able to do it. What exactly can audience expect if they're sitting in the Royal Shakespeare Theatre? That classic thing what Game of Thrones does, you feel relaxed and then it turns a corner and you're in some totally different existence, you can't breathe. Yeah, I think that's it, it just keeps you on the edge constantly and when you feel like you're most settled, there's a guaranteed moment of unrest that's going to just reveal itself. I can't at least say anything else other than that to be honest, personally, because I will be in trouble. Now I agree, man, I think pretty much all the characters in the play, the journeys that they go on are as surprising to them as they will be to the audience and I think that really holds attention for the length of the play from where the story begins to where it ends. And what was their experiences like first reading the script? How did they react with these revelations about all these iconic characters? It was a one-read deal for sure, usually I might have a little break, I was intrigued with every page I was turning. I needed to know what happened and how it resolved itself. So that was always a brilliant sign and again testament to Duncan's writing. It just keeps you in grouse, it keeps you there, it doesn't feel drawn out, you're just, yeah, I finished it and was, oh, okay. Alright, I guess then, go to the books. That's the next thing. And I suppose it doesn't, it really doesn't matter how much you know or think you know about Game of Thrones, the show will still quite constantly surprise and shock and excite you. And that again is a testament to the script and a testament to the whole world of Game of Thrones and the world that George has built for such a long time. You know, the saturation is like a slot in a huge moment of time that I think will offer you a lot. And finally, we have an iconic trio of characters that have gone down in history as some of the most famous in Game of Thrones lore. They are Robert Barathion, played on stage by Callum Woodhouse, you'll hear from him first. As well as Leana Stark, played by Harmony Rose Bremner and Rhaegar Targaryen, played by Noah Ritter. I mean, I was a huge fan of the original show and a huge, huge fan of Mark Addy in general as an actor and I loved what he did in series one. And yeah, it's really interesting in this to see sort of how he ends up kind of like the sort of bitter twisted king, because he wasn't always that way. And this sort of goes into, you know, the reasons why he sort of, he's filled with anger and anguish and so on. Yeah, it feels, it feels like such an honor to be able to like bring this character that is so beloved and such sort of, you know, only pops up in stories and feels so important within the series. But you never, well, only a little bit, get to hear her full story. So it's amazing that there's so much sort of, there's so many clues in the source material and it feels like there's so many like seeds to pick out. But then also so many decisions to be made. It's a really nice balance of like freedom, but also just an amazing template of a character already there. Yeah, I think, obviously, Rhaegar hasn't, you know, there are sort of flashes and references to him throughout the canon and all the books. And you see, you see those moments that are referenced. They crop up within the play and what Dunkin' R writer has done is he's sort of bridged those gaps with such care and detail that it's become, it's so specific and so consistent with the material that George has already created. It's a pleasure to fill in those gaps and yeah, I guess confirm or thwart the rumors and suspicions that the fans already have. So that's really, really exciting. And also, I think just seeing these characters as young people that are making decisions for the first time and experiencing things for the first time and making mistakes, I think is really special. I think, you know, seeing Robert as a sort of jaded older king and then seeing Callum's younger Robert is just such such an amazing thing. And I think people will be really excited to see that. I mean, it's been just like a dream working with this team when it came through and to see all of these names attached to, you know, spent like my career reviewing. Yeah, it's just really exciting to get to be in the room with them and, you know, peer into their brains and they both have so much to say about everything and so much detail involved and they really, I guess, because the story is so epic and they both know that but they've been working on it for so long. It's amazing to have the epicness paired with the intense detail and specificity that they both bring to it, especially because George has been like so involved. It feels like we're really delving into a very real world and everyone is so knowledgeable about it. Yeah, I mean, I just echo exactly what Harmony's just said. Duncan was written an absolutely beautiful script, which feels very Shakespearean, which I mean, lends itself to the RSV perfectly. And, yeah, working with Dominic, he just sort of manages to find flavors and beats and scenes that like you sort of realize it and you're going, yeah, why didn't I think of it? Yeah, that's just sort of like, yeah, that's beautiful and yeah, I think working with Dominic, being directed by him on this, it's definitely going to bring out everyone's best performances. But I think it's going to like maybe change how I act like moving forward, like the way the way the way that he approaches a script. And as you said, like his level of specificity is just, it's like all inspiring really. Yeah, I mean, I think he's the way Dominic works has been perfect in that we have such a huge cast. a'r ffordd o'r ffordd o'r ysgol. we do this table work and we sit down sometimes all 36 of us and every single one of us is asked what is your intention in the scene? What are you doing? Everyone is really important and I think Dominic's care for detail in those seemingly small moments just brings such an amazing specificity to the work which I think we'll really carry on, you know, you have these beautiful small moments but in such an epic story, so yeah. For those who don't know the story will start at the iconic location, the ruins of Harrenhall, where a great tourney will take place. How does this sense of spectacle play into the production? Yeah, I mean it's dubbed the greatest tourney of our age and so there's this amazing spectacle and I think the audience will be feel so much part of that spectacle and you know all of us will be on stage and there'll be you sort of, I think the audience has sort of guided, introduced to the world in such a clever snappy way of you know here's something going on here here's something going on here in a very sort of almost cinematic way which I think will be really thrilling to watch on this huge huge stage at being in the round and then and then our eyes being guided to to all these different moments and getting a very thrilling snappy introduction to the world and all the dynamics happening on this huge scale. So I think it's such an exciting way to start a show and I think that will be the audience will be pulled straight in. Yeah. Like I think in balancing that epic with the intimate like it's all there in the script that Duncan has written like the way that he is able to you know fully honor these really intense and epic events in a very Shakespearean or almost like Greek tragedy kind of way and then he can really hone in on the you know very like domestic and realistic sort of dynamics just between two humans that would be you know the same and one of these Shakespeare plays or in you know your modern play that you'd get these days. So yeah I think it's the the content that it's been that we've been given really allows us to sort of bring we've been doing a lot of work out bringing these big events to you know what it would mean to us now like what the with the torning of Harren Hall how would that relate to us now and how can how can we feel the the massiveness of something like that. So yeah it was really well written ballots and directed. Yeah it's all sort of I think it's also quite similar actually I mean you know unsurprisingly like like the TV show Game of Thrones you know you go from having these like the sequence in battle of the Buster's with John Snow like going through this fog of war and it's epic and it's it's messy and it's huge fighting and then you'll go straight to like this really intimate scene between I don't know like Tyrion Lannister or Braun or Ariora Sansa Stark and and it's yeah the cinematic is such a I think I think I think Dominic said that in one of the rehearsals of that we were doing that is it's sort of there's like this large scale thing going on but we want to sort of pinpoint where the audience need to watch at certain times and he's coming up with really really interesting ways of doing that and yeah it's really exciting and really just cool to watch. We also asked the trio what their history is with the production and how long they've been attached. I think I'm I think I'm the only one of us chaps who I've been I did there was lots of research and development sessions that we've done over the years so I've been sort of doing this for like the last three years very sporadically of course and I was playing a different character the first time I did the R&D and then for the next two I was doing Robert and it just felt like an amazing fit and if I'm honest I've felt that I spent that first R&D being like I want Robert. So I was really happy to come back as Robert. So yeah it feels amazing that it's finally happening because I remember you know doing them it was like I hope this happens I really hope this happens this is incredible and then and then my agent called me and I was like we need to move heaven and earth to make this to make this happen. Yeah I was like over the moon like I haven't read a female character like this like really ever. What has you know the space that she's been given in the story and that she has been given to portray is like really incredible and I just I couldn't really believe that I was getting the chance to to fill those shoes. I think I was on holiday and I got the call so it just made everything so much better. I mean I found out on the press night of another show. So I thought yay and then and then had to get go back to Mersey's side and and and do do that and forget about Westeros and then I could think about it again and and and and be happy about it but I I mean I found out very very last minute and so it's been a bit of an amazing whirlwind and and it's not not a world that I was incredibly familiar with like I hadn't I hadn't watched the show and so coming to it from a sort of the innocence of of it and and this being my introduction has been thrilling. Yeah. One thing that has already become apparent is that many of those booking to see Game of Thrones the Mad King or be first time theatre goers either to the RSC or to theatre full stop. How important is this? I asked the cast. It's so it's so informed by Shakespeare that I hope that they will come back to the RSC and and think this is what this is what theatre and and Shakespearean drama can be at use sort of at its best. So I hope it I mean I hope it will be a great introduction to theatre and I hope that the Game of Thrones fans of you know the fans of the books and and of the TV series will will appreciate how the the power of the theatrical storytelling and how and and we'll get something different from from being in the space with the characters and I think that it being so immediate will be will be really thrilling for people who know the characters well and love them and and for people that are experiencing this for the very first time. The other thing I just like and I think no it's absolutely spot on with everything he's just said I think the other thing as well is I think after seeing this play is going to make people want to air watch Game of Thrones and be people who have already seen Game of Thrones watch it again because it gives you a whole extra I've been I started watching the series again during rehearsals and I was like I'll just watch series one just just for how long Robert's in it and then I think like two weeks after that I was finishing season eight and I was like how on earth has this happened I just watched the whole thing I just couldn't stop I know well I didn't do anything else with my time I was rehearsing Game of Thrones I'm watching Game of Thrones that's all I did but it just it really does give you a whole or that like yeah like you don't you see you don't realize how much they talk about Leana and regar throughout the series who you know unless you've read a song of ice and fire you don't know who these characters are if this is if if you're just watching the TV show like I was at the time you don't know who these characters are and this gives you a whole understanding of everything that these characters went through it's incredible it's also kind of surprised me especially just the first time reading and more we on picket how um which is relevant it feels to the world that we're living in right now um and and to these like really human themes and struggles and conflicts like in our term oils that all of the characters are going through just and and and their reaction to a world that submissives just really it feels so relevant and immediate and it surprised me reading it and hopefully the people who come and watch it will connect to that as well. Game of Thrones the Mad King has sold out its run at the RSC they'll keep your eyes peeled for any returns because they might appear any moment on the RSC website a fingers crossed there'll be more life for the production in due course but in the meantime they've got a press night to get through.