Bonus Episode: From Dom Pérignon to Daiginjo — a Sake-Fueled Reinvention featuring Richard Geoffroy

(upbeat music) Well, hello and welcome to The Wine Access Unfiltered Podcast. Don't worry, if you don't have the wine that is in front of you right now, or rather the sake, everything is gonna be just fine. This is a bonus episode of The Wine Access Unfiltered Podcast because I felt, as though this was just too special an opportunity to pass up when I found out that Richard Rashard, excuse me, Jim, I was going to be in town and you are not too far from me. I thought it was worth making a little trip up to say hello and discuss one of my favorite projects that I've come across in the past few years. Some of you may be familiar with his name already. He was the Shephtech Hav at a little known champagne house called Dumpering On for a few years, but has since then made a somewhat surprising turn into the world of sake. And if you followed me on social media at all in the past few months, you've seen me undoubtedly talk about how excited I am about Iwa, the sake that we are going to be enjoying and talking about today. So please welcome Richard. - Jeff Lomb. - You're the student. - Good afternoon. (laughs) You've been on a whirlwind tour, it seems. - You're the student of what? - I don't know. - You are the student. - You're making sake, doesn't matter. - You're making it afternoon somewhere, anyway. - Is there a preferred time of day to drink sake? - Anytime. - Anytime. - Round the clock. - Breakfast? - Yeah, I'm breakfast. - What do you have with breakfast, sake? - Tofu. - Tofu. - Oh, you mean, you can serve? - No, but more than anything, the miso soup. - Yeah. - Yeah, it's really the stepper daily. - Lucky you two have made two beverages that go so well with breakfast lunch and dinner, champagne for breakfast, sake for breakfast. - No wonder. - No wonder. - It's by design, yeah. - Is it by design? - Yeah, it's the, I'm pretty sure that the element of versatility was in really my aspiration. - When did sake enter your life? - It entered my life in your 2000. - Okay. - And interestingly enough, I think it's a very precise, specific moment. It was in Kyoto. You know, at Dai Tokuji Temple, which is really ancient Zen Temple, carrying really shogin, you know, proposing shogin-reo-ri food, cuisine, which is the Zen vegetarian cuisine of Japan. And we had an outstanding meal, you know, and they had been pouring really, next to our dinner is sake, and I've been keeping in mind, you know, and it became sort of my proust madeline. It's on that very specific moment. - What happened in that moment? What did you visualize? - You know what? I remember the shared taste, I would say aromatics, which were so unique and the remain unique after those 25 years. And I've been chasing in my own exercise of e-wides. There was a tinge of the green. - Sappy. - Okay. Sappy green, which is very uncommon in anything, you know, sake, anyone, you know, it was, and I've been driven through that sort of element of zest, of energy, you know, of fresh, kisku, minty, sappy. - Sappy? - Sappy. - I have to taste it now, because I don't know that I've ever noticed there's sappyness. - You know, no, yeah. Anyway, it's very marginal, but the one I've been chasing in Kyoto was really upfront or whatever. I was stunning. One of a kind. - I don't think that I have had anything ever described to me as sappy, but. - Yeah, I hear that. - Smelling this. - Yeah. As it is, it's more really of a palette thing. But yeah, it's the way it's added off. - So that was the moment that sake entered your life. - Same, you know. - But here we are 24 years later, and now you're not making champagne. Now you're making sake. - Yeah. - And a natural progression, sort of, or not at all. - No, natural progression. To me, the project of UI is natural extension. I've been really after in my 28 years or years of don't pay new. It's a pursuit of how money, balance, complexity, and to keep on. My position at don't pay new was so privileged. I've been really having really such a great period of life. But possibly a tattoo, much comfort zone, and an element of frustration, you know, when it comes to creativity. When making a dozen of that much creativity, and I am really different myself in being more in the creative. So I had to keep on, on the project, on the universe of a correspondence. And there's nothing more corresponding than the sake and wine to together. - It's interesting that you mentioned the creative side of it, because one of the things I had considered when I was thinking about this conversation was you're going from a creative who was part of a larger family at Don Pairingon, in which lots of hands are involved, lots of decision makers. It's not your brand, and now you're a creative and you're an entrepreneur who has to make decisions in a slightly different way. How does that color your vision as the creative? - We're making your world, you know, your up regulation. - Okay. - Everybody sees me. It's the big thing at the moment, you know, pointing at you are being regulated. - I hadn't considered that, that's fair. - People in Europe are so nice. - Yes. - So, the Taiwan is really the magical wine, but at the same time it's a constraint. And all right, it just is so limiting in many ways. And the reality to Taiwan is the Appalachian system, again, you know, you cannot do this, kind of that. If I were making the equivalent of what I'm making there in Japan, you know, in France, I would be blocked. I wouldn't be able to go commercial. I would be told, "Ruchard, we love you. What do you make is so interesting." Then in the end, you know, it's not of the character or the local Appalachian. - Right. - You are too off-styled, so you cannot go commercial. And many of the great wine makers of France are disclaiming their local Appalachian and go for generic Verde France. So it's very symptomatic in a way that there is a problem. Well, that's some of the arguments for why so many of the European wine makers are making their way to the New World in places like California and Oregon. Yeah, but so, sake of Japan is my New World. You said that Teruare was sort of the magic of champagne. What is the magic of sake then? To me, above anything, it will be the cultural element. You could say that the cultural element is really part of the wine terwaut just as well. But still, to me, it stands out as really the major one. If you are giving all the same elements to masterbours of Japan, North, South, and they will all end up with different psychies. Everything being equal, you know, in the making. The psychies, the end result would be different. And if you then discuss sake in Japan and outside, say, in America, to me, in the end, the major element of difference is the cultural one. I know that one can make really great sake in the US, but when it comes to that legacy tradition, 100 years of making, you know, obviously, Japan stands out. So, to me, it comes in the first place. Then you can discuss the water, anything. But in any case, the terwaut of sake is the brewery. To me, if you say, there is a rice terwaut, the agriculture, the cultivation of rice, it's a marginal element to the final character and quality. Most of it comes from the Kura, you know, the brewery itself. It's possibly 80/20. 20, the fields, you know, rice fields, 80, the processing, the making. Which is sort of the opposite, right? I would agree. So, more pressure than potentially for you to make sake than to make champagne? Yeah, I love pressure. It's exactly when I'm after. No, it says, "Yeah, you have been listening to so many wine makers." They all say the same thing. That true to the Torah. The wine is made in the vineyards. Yes, made in the vineyards. That's true to the Torah. Okay. If I only could be true to myself, I would be happy. So it's a very personal interpretation of Sakeh. Do you consider yourself an artistic person? Yeah, I'm always uncomfortable about the term artistic. But why? I don't know. I'll find it a bit too presumptuous. Well, no one's asking you to sell your art or think that it's good. But do you consider yourself a food? Yeah, I'm creative in any case. Yeah. It sounds like you are. I'm creative as well. And I think to me, Sakeh, I don't know. There's pictures in my head that I get when I drink Sakeh and I pair it with food that I don't necessarily get with wine. I find wine to be a little bit more linear as if I have to head in a particular direction. Whereas Sakeh is a little more like a Jackson Pollock and I can kind of choose my own adventure. Hmm. I'm no more. You know what? With you, 100 people. I have several comments on all of this. Number one is that there's way more freedom in the making of Sakeh than wine. As long as you have rice, kouji, and the sort of the morting of rice, you know, water and yeast, you're in business. Yeah. And then you are free, free, anything. Nobody is going to, you know, free style. You know? Number one. And number two is that there are so many options in making your Sakeh. Frankly, between you and me, where more than one making? One's giving interview to Le Monde and the Sveper in France. And I stated that it was a more complex slash complicated to make Sakeh and wine. There was an outcry. It was a weekend edition on Saturday. So Sunday out for lunch, but on the Monday, you know, I had really so many people living messages. That's what we call here in the state's shots fired. Okay. So to get to that versatility, or these particular emotions and pairing whatsoever, that there are more options in making and philosophically, proven fact actually, that the more options you have in making, the more options you have in the drinking. I think that's probably true. To me, there is a mirror image, an element of energy you put into what you make, which is reflected in what you, the way you drink. Right. I'm there are many options in making options in the drinking. I'm experimental and taking risks in making. Particularly early years, I was out of the shooting from, you know, no benchmarking nothing. And as a, you know, experimental taking risk, and I'm quite people to be experimental and take risk in the drinking. Okay, sushi is great. Okay, it's the least you would expect, but you can push it to anything. So that correspondence of, in the consumption and the drinking for me is very important. Well, it's interesting you say that, because last year about this time, I did a partnership, and it involved drinking sake with other cuisines. So it was a French, I went to a French marock in restaurant. We did some sake by the glass, and it was mind-blowing, because I had always naively assumed that sake only belonged with Japanese food. But the pairing with some of the dishes that they were doing was really incredible. Why and how do you think sake will become a part of the American culture in the way that Japanese food has become a part of the American culture? Americans are very accepting of Japanese food. I would argue that most people that are watching this or listening to this don't have a ton of experience with sake. Yeah, to me, you know, they're in Japan. So many people are having the cuisines of Japan with don't pay no. Well, that's very interesting. Yeah, okay. No, no, I mean that. Right. Okay. Sure. Here's a cross. A cross. In all honesty, you cannot say that all sake can make anything. I think it's a bit of some sake can, and others really somewhat versatile but not to the fore. Not all sake is our created equal. That's what you're saying. Well, yeah. Yeah, like any clearly. That's what I'm saying. Right, not all champagne is a created equal. Are you sure? Of that, I'm sure. There are so some sake is making it, you know, better than others. Because the only way to be that versatile, that pairing with anything, any cuisine, any culture of food, the key, the clue is really the balance and the complexity. And sake is more or less balanced, more or less complex. And the project that we want is to bring that balance and that complexity at the highest possible. For those of you who are not familiar with this, we're talking about a luxury product. The price is at a place where it should be bringing complexity, but it does. And I think it does deliver. And I think if you do position it in your head and in your mouth as something that's going to deliver all of the colors of the rainbow and then some, you know, it starts to make sense. How has it been received here in the United States? Wow, frankly, it's a terrific. Sure, well, basically, it's a brilliant style. It has been received terrific and I'm going to make a major compliment to the people of America. There is a sense of curiosity, of a disposition of curiosity, openness, and giving things a try. Even those who had been through bad expense of sake and some people, okay, that's been really, I was in California in the 80s and some of us like drawing them, was really, you know, not up to, right? So that's kind of a wage. But in any case, so many people, you know, anybody is open and is giving it possibly a chance or another chance, people want to venture an experiment. So as a result, you know, you know, you might have been really that shifting the lines and being really experimental and new enough, say, people are, you know, thrilled and in the discovery, not to mention outside the sake alone, what I would call the storytelling, you know, establishing there from scratch, from the ground up, building everything and the, I realize it's a fascinating story to so many people in America. Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that it's been received well. I hope to see more people embrace it. And I want to add something actually, you know, the launch of EW has been staggered, you know, we started off in Japan year 2020 and the US has been only two years, you know, two years ago. So it means that Japan has been preceding the US and the buzz, the weather mouth from Japan has been, you know, reaching out to the US. It was such an exhilarating thing of seeing really literally the thing moving from one continent to the other, particularly through the Japanese communities, you know, here in the country. Which in turn, you know, spread the word to larger crowds. Well, it's quite an organic phenomenon and you know, I have so many stories of people, here in the US bringing E1 assemblage number one, the first ever assemblage in the suitcases to, yeah, to the back, to the country. Well, that's a good point because you don't necessarily have ventures of this, they're numbered assemblage. Can you explain the logic and the theory behind that decision? Yeah, actually, in my view, it's really decreasing on the vintage, in one, but the vintage in one is really referring to the harvest, making sense, you know, in referring to the harvest, all these variations are in the climate, anything special happening in the cultivation of, you know, vineyards and the high years, low years, cool warm wet and warm. So it's a very fair proposition. In the case of Sake, there is not such a story, such a variation in years. Pretty steady flat, whatever expression or rice. So actually, I've been coming up with the idea that the vintage is not the harvest, but it's really the year of blending and bottling, which is the subsequent year. So number one, and number two, vintage in ones, is all about the diversity, variations, everything. And I've been playing that game of variations and diversity in the assemblage. Instead of using a skill from Champagne, you know, a skill of being really flat, continued, consistent to an element of boredom. Sure. Now I left Champagne, I can be more friend. He's free now, he's wild man. He took me 40 something years to set myself free. You know what's so funny? You're looking at your resume. I was like, he's going to be kind of serious. I don't know. You're very silly. You're like a very funny silly. Yeah, because I'm a Jimmy. It seems like it. Yeah, I'm having a war. And yet we've had nothing to do with it. I think this value of my life is the best one. Yeah, it's the best one. I'm on top of an oil. I have something to prove. I'm pioneering something. And I see the whole thing spreading out. So it cannot be anything more rewarding. And I managed to be somewhat on the road. You know, having really that feedback direct. Instead of being filtered through me, you know, and you know, just connected. Yeah. The whole thing is so exciting. Do you know that the term having skin in the game? Yeah. Your skin in the game, which changes everything. Yeah. Well, I've been the head one make of Don't Pay New Moitichon Don't Together. It happens to be the largest super-premium one-making operation in the world. Right. And don't pay no other particular status, you think? Sure. And then I'm now on the start of mode, flying economy in the cheap hotel or cheaper. Not overly fancy hotels. Right. I'm on a budget on anything. I'm lean. Yeah. Detox. We splurge where we need to. Yeah. As someone, well, you obviously had a much more prestigious title for a long time. I wonder if you felt the way that I was the sommelier of a wine director at a restaurant called Press, which was a wonderful position to have. It was a dream job. But when I left there to start my own thing, I wondered if I would have this identity crisis being without that title and not being the sommet press and not being the wine director at press. Did you have any sort of identity crisis in leaving such a prestigious job to start this? In all honesty, I hadn't. No, I did not. No, no time, I think. No, I did not. And I tell you, you know, that move to UI was by design. It was a choice. I know you start having an identity crisis when you are impassive and sometimes, then you start feeling you are demoted on something, you know, otherwise, you know, when it's really just a proactive, really willing choice. It was your choice. Right. No, it does change everything. But, you know, I had 150 staff and 25 guys in the IND. And now I have only my master role myself, who had two. And considering that the overall concept of UI is rather mine, you know, Toges, really meeting my requirements, you know, the whole idea of blending, all in all, I'm lonely. All the major decisions I was on in the project that we were, I was alone. I never had been alone. That alone, ever, ever. You know, in my one-making life, I could consult anybody, you know, I had really outstanding experts on anything. But the only guy I can rely on. It's you now. Yeah, we change our eye. He puts me on the toes, you know, I got to reset, to challenge myself, really, maybe get back to some of the fundamentals of reading again, questioning. So it's very stimulating, which is very healthy. But I think it's very healthy. What do you read that stimulates you? To me, the brewing, I'm more or less got really either the fundamentals and my master bro, Toges, you guys, stunning is one of the top guys of Japan. He comes from Kenbishi, established 1505, expert of the traditional techniques of you start making, you know, I'm so brewing secured. But to me, the thing I got to figure out and I'm not so clear on his really time, the lifespan, you know, the timescale. Of sake. Of sake. Okay. Meaning we're not sure how long. Yeah, I cannot benchmark, you know, you have to anything. So I got to figure things out as a walk. And I start really be able to extrapolate in a way, you know, but still it's not that exact or precise. My good feel is that the IWA assemblage can age for so long. I mean so much longer than anything in Japan. To its benefit? Yeah, to its keeping improving. Like good wine, it can be salad. It's more than 15, 20 year mark than anything. And what happens in general? To the sake, as it ages. Dark aromatics, more complex, more mellow. Mellow in terms of texture or flavor? Texture. Texture. Which could be mistaken for sweet, for the sweet, no. Mellow is more of whatever glycerol non sugar. And so when you come into contact with a sake like that, how do you shift in terms of what you're enjoying with it? Or is that perhaps a sake to be enjoyed on its own? Yeah, clearly the more mature IWA is, the further you can go, the more adventurous you can be. And not even mentioning that you can play temperature in glassware. So I don't see any limit. These somewhat more mature assemblage are you aware of. But I cannot get any further back than assemblage one blending in 2020. So let's say, genuine five years in the bottom, and go for meat, stuff, game, spice, travel, something very dark, very layered, you can push it to the extreme. Yeah, we're sure it's my fault for asking the question, but dinner is like two hours away and I'm already hungry. Yeah, sorry. It's the warm up, I think. Yeah, that. Well, this is delicious. Cheers, thank you very much. It is my pleasure. We have a fantastic dinner to look forward to the seed being. I'll show some clips just for posterity. But thank you for taking the time. What do we have to look forward to on this blank canvas that you're painting in progress? Yeah, it's in progress. In progress. And my idea is really to have people embarking on this project of IWA, to be part of it, and to keep witnessing the progress. It's not a flat, continued steady state, whatever project. It's not linear. No, it's not linear. I'm not a fan of linearity. I like non-linear things. I like them to be like this. Yes. This is why, and it's the best compliment I can give you, I had my choice of what to drink on my birthday in January. I enjoyed IWA. So, thank you. I'm very touched. Thank you. Thank you for having me, and thank you for the time. And I hope you all learned a little something about Saki, and I encourage you to give it a try. If you're going to try it for the first time, this may be an excellent place to start, but you might be starting at the top. It's playful. They're playful, yes. Yeah, I like that. Life is too short. Indeed, thank you. Thank you. Well, I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation with Frasciar Giffa. I left that room with so many questions, which is why I was so excited to get to have dinner with him and a few others in Tribeca at the three Michelin star, Jungsek, an outstanding restaurant on its own, but made even more outstanding because we not only paired all of the dishes with the five different awesome bloggers who we could see, basically what Frasciar Giffa is. was talking about, you know, how these different blends can shift and how, you know, just even the most subtle details can make all the difference. But what was really interesting was that they also paired some of the wines the same time, but at different temperatures and in different glassware. So that was really unique to see. And it left me with a lot of questions and it left me really with a need for more conversation, which is why I called Eduardo because if you're going to continue talking about sake, you got to bring Eduardo into the loop. He's the guy that introduced me to Iua in the first place. And it also encouraged me that, you know, because this is a wine podcast, I'm sure a few of you maybe aren't super familiar with sake and how it's made. And because blending is such a big component of the Iua sake and Roshara Jeffois philosophy, it got me thinking that, you know, sake blending is very different than wine blending, right? We're not blending different grapes. We're not blending different blocks and vineyards. And so the process of making sake may be a little bit more foreign to some of you. And so I brought Eduardo in so we could obviously recap some of the conversation, but also to kind of talk about the process of making sake and to further clarify some of the talking points in that conversation. So how are you? I haven't seen you in a minute. It's been too long, too long a lot of sake away. Yeah. Well, I owe you a huge debt of gratitude for interviewing me to Iua and more specifically to Roshara Jeffois because that is a human that I think everyone needs to meet at least once in their life to like not only just sit in his foreseal, but also like he's very funny and very silly, which I did not expect at all. He's amazing. He's not only an amazing artist, but yeah, as a person, I love traveling with him and catching up anytime I can. You know, 28 years as the chef to COVID-19 is on and his French, which obviously French people, there's a vibe sometimes. I just I went into it and I was like, all right, he's going to be very serious. I should have very serious questions. And then the more I got to talk to him and having dinner with him, I was like, oh, is this a guy that just like really wants to have fun? And what's so crazy is, you know, he's 70, right? This is and this is his third career. He was like, he was a doctor before this, before he had been wine and then he got into this when he's 65, which I just think is a testament to not only his character, but also his like his talent, like anyone that can just hang it all up and start from scratch. I'm so to speak is like, it's very impressive. It's rejuvenating every time you hang out with him. You get this jolt of energy. He's like a little kid. It's amazing. I know. And he's just so excited by sake, which I think incites a sort of passion for me as well, as we've talked about sake many times. I think it was actually this time last year that I went to New York and I had that great experience. I think it was a Moroccan restaurant with sake. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I've only been drinking the sake of sushi. And it was sort of the beginning of this renaissance and my curiosity for sake. But as I mentioned, I think a lot of people don't really know a lot about sake. It's not a beverage that really makes its way into mainstream culture outside of Japanese restaurants. So giving your background and expertise, can you sort of talk about how sake is made and where that blending component would sort of fall into the mix? Yeah, we'll make a brief. I'll try to. But basically, we'll take a wine approach and comparison. So let's see a cluster of grapes in the middle of harvest season anywhere in the world, right? Whether you're in France or in California or anywhere. So this grapes are ready to be harvested to make wine. Let's say these grapes fall into a container, any sort of vessel. And you don't do anything to them. And as we know, yeast is going to come in. The sugars are going to ferment into alcohol, right? So without any intervention, you have an alcoholic beverage. You have wine, right? Chances are, right? You've seen probably videos, or if you get super bored, you can go down the YouTube hole. And there's videos about the elephants in Africa that go and find this Amarula fruit, which falls in the ground, in ferments, and then they get drunk and start dancing and having a party. So same thing, right? So you have all these fermentable sugars. So with sake, you're starting with rice. That rice doesn't matter if you have a basket of rice, a bucket, and you don't do anything to it, it's not, nothing's going to happen. So to start this party, you need the Koji. Koji is basically so the approach to sake making is you harvest the rice, you dehydrate it, and then you go through a process of washing and then steaming. Just imagine your grandma's making a giant batch of rice for a whole party of the village. And it looks like regular rice, like not rice that you would consume as a-- Yeah, there are. If we get down to the rabbit hole, there are different strains that are utilized for sake production, and as opposed to eating, they're a little interchangeable. But basically, it's the proteins and the starch. So you steam the rice, you separate it in two parts. One part of the rice gets really lucky and goes to the sauna room. This is called the Koji Muro, and this is where the magic happens. So this room, it's very much traditionally like a sauna. It's covered in four or walls by wood. It's high humidity and warm. So the rice gets put on a table, and then this is where the Koji's pours get spread. Sort of like a very ceremonial, it could be kind of like a-- imagine a parmesan shaker or like a tea bag, just kind of the spores coming on around the table. During this process of the Koji making, Koji rice, all the-- the Koji starts breaking down those starches and converts them into fermentable sugars, which now, now we're at a point where we can compare it to wine, right? So after those are processed, then you start your additions, and you do a little bit of the Koji rice. You do a little bit of that regular rice that steamed and went to just rest for a while. Water, and then the yeast. Whether it's ambient yeast that just lives in our skin on the buildings everywhere, or it's an additive of yeast that will have a designer style, just like we do with wine. So basically with wine, you're able to do a natural fermentation, just let it all go, just press the grapes. Or you can be as a wine maker, you can choose to do a certain strain of yeast. So you have a final product, a style of-- but not same with sake. So once the fermentation happens, then you press the sake. You go through a pasteurization process, aging, and so on and so forth. From there, you can split into so many different ways. But basically in a nutshell, that's how sake is made. What's happening with Iwa and Rishard's expertise, he's bringing all this and making different batches. He's using different rice strains, different yeast selections, aging, different polishing grades, and creating different tanks. And when I got to visit Iwa for the first time last year, I actually got to see this. And Rishard happened to be in town. As you know, I don't usually plan things out normally. So I happened to be in Japan, and I was done with a previous blending session at a different brewery. And I literally just call or texted Rishard and said, "Hey, can I go visit Iwa?" He's like, "Yeah, I'm actually here blending, swing by." So I jump on the next strain. I stop by the brewery, and he had just finished a massive blending exercise. He had about 30 different lots, and he's just doing the blending for this ascent blush. This very ascent blush five that's coming up. It's pretty fascinating, because he's using all these different parts of the equation as you would with Bordeaux, if you will, where you're using different grapes, or in champagne proper, where you're using different lots, different aging, and such. And by taste, with a small panel, with his head brewer, just finalizing all these notes. So it's basically an ensemble. These are finished wines. These are not like unfin it. You could drink these sakeys, these sample, these things that they're blending. They are delicious on their own, and they're ready to go. But yeah, the expertise comes with the whole blending, which is different every year. And so if I'm understanding correctly, then the variables that you're talking about for each of these different blending components are the different strains of rice and the different yeast. And then is there anything else and water? Yeah, the polishing grade. Okay, oh yeah. Because you have all these different tiers, right? You have Daiginjo, 50% or more polish. Ginjo, which is 40% or more, and then Junmei, which is 30%, but all variables. And also you have the aging. So you have a little bit of aging on different batches that adds a little bit of that extra muscle or complexity or layers to the final product. He was saying the difference, which I didn't actually realize for what was true for wine. He said different strains of yeast will actually adjust your different acidity levels, which I didn't realize. Absolutely. Yeah, some strains just completely changed the whole, not only alcoholic percentage, but also the acidity and also Koji. There's different strains of Koji. Yeah, like the chemical breakdown of it. Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah, I, if you start if you're listening to this, apologies, because I basically just fired questions at him the entire dinner. So I think he took a few bites of our food, but I'm not sure. He loves it. I hope so, because I really, I had so many questions. It was like, for me, it was like being a young psalm all over again and learning about everything. And as he was answering questions, I had like seven new ones that would pop up in my head. And he was so gracious in giving me the answers, which I feel like is not always the case. So everything from like, you know, the ageability of it, like, what's it like after opening, we talked a little bit about the heaviness of the bottle cap and like why he prefers this particular glass capsule over something like quarks. I was like, obviously, you dealt with quark your whole life, you know, why was you not be in favor of quark for something like sake? Is there any benefit? And he said, no, he said there's really no benefit to using quark and the glass is just as effective and beautiful. Yeah, very few producers will use quark in Japan and it's sort of like an anomaly. Usually the most traditional is the screw cap that's delvin because it protects, you're able to, if you get deep into like the more geeky levels as we know with mine, you're able to really choose the oxygen exchange for a gentle or very slow oxidation over time. But yeah, these capsules are definitely preferred for the assacchar like this. And not to say that a sake like this age is beautifully. I got to taste the first assemblage under second a couple times in the last year and I love how the suck is definitely take on. I would say sort of like an H burgandian approach to it. Yes. Amazing, very, very, very fascinating. So fresh is delicious or upon release and then as you age and put them back in the cell and forget about them. Well, I was curious because I've had, I've had this one open in the fridge for a while. So it was like, let me just take it out and see what it is. I generally have not tried it. So this is a bit of a gamble. But I was curious to see what it would do after being open for a few months. So generous. And it's still like, it still smells like very, I mean, it's, you can feel it's a, it's slightly, slightly muted. But aromaticly, it's actually really, really close to when I first opened it, which was, okay, so it's March now. This might have been the bottle that I opened for my birthday. So this might, this, I think this is, I think this is a bottle of my, for my birthday. So this is three months old, two months old. Yeah, and it's a testament to the longevity of the of suck in general, but the way that suckers are made are very sturdy because of all the, the blends of the components fascinated. Yeah, you can have a great meal with it today. It's really, it's still really good. You can feel like the brightness kind of like almost in the way that your white wine maybe after a few days in the fridge starts to lose some of that brightness and the freshness. But like, it's still really delicious. And if somebody poured me glasses, it'd be like, yeah, man, which is nice because I think when you're spending, you know, this is almost $200 a bottle. So, and I want to talk about, you know, where this kind of fits in in this hockey world. But if you're thinking about buying a bottle of this, it's not like you have to take this down in one sitting. Like I will tell you straight up, even though this is two months old, I've had this wine over the course of two weeks, you know, and you, you really, you don't want to drink so so much, although I also something I want to mention. But I will say like this last week for a long time and it was still really beautiful even in that two week window, which is why I wanted to see how it did after, what is that nine, nine weeks now. Nine weeks. Because I wanted to mention was, you know, we drink our fair share of sake at that dinner. I felt so good the next day. I was not anticipating it. I was anticipating having a nasty hangover and I was totally fine. Which I thought was interesting because sake is, is it, it's higher alcohol for the most part, right? Like, depending on. Yeah, the composition. And quite frankly, that's how I got into sake when I first started drinking it. I started realizing, first of all, you get a very happy buzz. It's very different with different alcoholic beverages, right? But also, if you don't abuse it and you have maybe upwards of half a bottle of none makes it with anything else, you wake up and you can go run a couple of miles, no problem. You don't even feel it. I felt great. I honestly, because I was heading home from New York that day, I was like, I was prepared. I had the Tylenol, I'll buy my bed ready to go. I had the liquid IV and I got up and I was like, I actually like, like, like, not going to work. I feel very good right now. That's awesome. Yeah. It's so good for that. Where does Iwa fit into the sake world? Because it's obviously a newer brand. It's, as I can tell, and again, this is more your corner of the world and expertise than mine. Where does it fit both in style and also in price? Well, it is fascinating. So there are only very few producers that do, or even attempt a blending of different tanks and such, just like Richard has been doing, right? His approach is a little different, but basically what he achieved is this complexity, this layering upon layer of like acidity and richness and oxidation and all those things, right? So it's a very serious, okay. And as you got to see it at the dinner, and I got to experience this at single thread a couple of years ago with them is what you can do different vessels. You can do a wine glass, you can do an ochoco, you can do many things, but also the temperatures. So for instance, the sake you have there that's been open for a few weeks, you heat it up a little bit and it just gives you a completely different spectrum of richness and roundness. So it puts it on a very special category where you can drink a room temperature hot or cold, have a different outcome. So it's on a category of its own. Now where it fits in the world of sake, it is very special. I mean, I definitely compare it to like what champagne is to salon and even don't pre-union, what is in the champagne world, right? Because there are great grower producers, there are great big houses that make champagne and deliberate for like $50 to $80, right on that price range. But obviously those champagne's like older vintage don't pre-union or salon or such, they demand the price and they also deliver that promise, right? So this is a sake that goes on that upper echelon. This is yeah, not an everyday sake because quite likely all of us mortals can afford it on a daily basis. But it is when you splurge and you try it and whether you're at Thomas Keller's French laundry or at any Michelin star that's been carrying it and serving it by the glass, it is going to deliver an experience. Yeah, I can definitely see that. And it's, what's nice is it's not expensive in gimmicky, it's expensive and it has the promise to support it. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Which, you know, you see this in the world about the time, there's tons of expensive wines out there that are gimmicky and not worth it. I think using the example of obviously don't pay a no but also salon is a great example. And I love that he's really kind of getting out into not only American restaurants, but American like Michelin star restaurants of all different types of cuisines. Obviously, Yungsek is Korean, but going to like a single thread, going to a French laundry that lead, that single thread leads a little more Japanese. But French laundry leans decidedly more California and French and really showcasing how sake can play with these foods really, really well. So I think you're right. Like, you know, you go to these restaurants if you're just thinking about having one bottle of something, I think you could do a lot worse than something like this because to your point, as we experienced at the restaurant, different vessels with sake change it dramatically in different temperatures as well. And so, yeah, throughout the course of that dinner, we had, you know, awesome blogs for and awesome blogs too. We had them two different times and two different vessels at different temperatures to show how it can play and how, you know, cannot not only change as a wine itself, but also how it changes with the food, which is so fascinating. Do you find that to be true of mosaque or do you think that's just really something more unique to Iwa? Certainly not every sake is built like that or it should be delivered that way. A lot of the jume diginjos of the world, they're great, chilled in a proper grind glass and that's about it. When you heat them up or do different vessels, you mute it and hide away a lot of the beauty of the sake, which tend to be the most expensive ones. And then same is for a richer sort of ajo so Yamaha richer kind of by the sign style, they're better at a room temperature or warm and when you chill them, you kind of hide away some of the things. This is an anomaly, a great hybrid complexity style. Yeah, unicorn of sake. It's super fun. Yeah, I'm really grateful to have been introduced to this. Like I said, I think I mentioned it in the interview with Richard, but, you know, I ordered this bottle from my nexus and I did a video on it thinking that, you know, it would deliver but maybe like, you know, it would be a little, because it's expensive as I said. And I was genuinely taken aback just without having any information on it other than who was making it and now seeing it in action amongst the food in different glassware, talking to Richard. It really colors it in a different way and it gives me a brand new appreciation for it. And guess what? I guess I'm excited for Saki and I think, you know, it's a lot to spend for people I think who are not familiar, but I think if you're curious about this sector of the beverage world, you know, it's not a bad place. I mean, it's a bad place to start and that not everything's going to taste like this, but if you really want to see what Saki can do, I think this is a great way to go. Absolutely. I love to hear stories like yours and I knew you would really find it to blow your socks off and be excited, this excited about it. It's amazing. But yeah, it's bound to happen to most people that are probably listen, watching the podcast and listening and abroad is that most of the missions that restaurants, not only in the US but the world, are starting to adopt the SACA program. And Iwa, thanks to Richard and his whole enthusiasm, he's managed to put a lot of his SACA is by the glass. So you're able to try it, perhaps it's going to come to you in a pairing or you can order a glass and be introduced that way before you splurge and get in your collection and vertical as I'm working on. Yeah, it's pretty fascinating. I feel like I should also mention because I feel like I've been very positive, overly positive, that I came to Iwa and I was like, "Hey, can I interview Richard?" This was all my idea. This was not them coming to me or my access coming to me. I was so excited about this and I felt like it was a story that needed to be told. This all came from such a genuine place. So I know it's easy, especially in a sponsored podcast source to think, "Oh, this is a like, this is not a marketing thing. Like, this is genuine passion for something that really has opened my eyes to something that I didn't even know what's possible." So I felt like that was worth mentioning. It's awesome. Cheers to that, yeah. It's pretty cool. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Eduardo. I know you're busy. Where are your next travels taking you to? I'm heading to, I just got back from Japan two days ago and I'm heading to Spain in a couple weeks and then from there an extensive trip through Italy and then back to Japan where I'm actually going to go back to UI in May. So super excited for that. Well, I will definitely let you get to packing. If that's even a thing for you, I don't know if you unpack at all and just or just leave a suitcase by your door and. You're the one that I should get some tips from for the traveling. You do travel quite a bit too. I do quite a few shoes, but. Yeah. I can make it in a carry on, so I feel pretty proud of myself for that. I only travel with a carry on. So. Well, yes, that's a carry on. But I always wear the same thing. All right. Well, I'll let you get back to it. Thank you so much for joining me. For those of you curious about this, you can find everything you need in the description below or by visiting Wine Access where Iwa is stacked and ready for your enjoyment. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it if you love it and if you love this bonus episode of the podcast, we hope you'll stop and leave us a comment, a review, and make sure you're subscribed to the show. Until next time, cheers guys. Cheers guys. Take care.