BONUS EPISODE: Are Movies with Fewer Producers Better? w/ Stephen Follows

For over 35 years Todd Garner has overseen blockbuster films like Conair, Anchor Management, Triple X, 13 Going On 30, and the Mortal Kombat franchise. Why are they letting you make these movies? Join Todd as he shares tips and stories from the front lines of producing in Hollywood. I'm Adam Sandler. I'm Rev. Wilson. This is Jeff Broke. I'm Kayleigh Quoco. I'm Eli Roth. This is Molly Ways. Hey, it's Ed Helms. This is Shane Mitchell. Everybody, this is Kevin James. And this is the producer's guide. The producer's guide. The producer's guide with Todd Garner. Todd Garner. Todd Garner. Todd Garner. Todd Garner. What a combination. Hello, everybody. Listen to the producer's guide podcast. This is always Todd Garner. Well, today we have a very special bonus episode. And my guess is Steven follows. And Steven recently did a research investigation and wrote a story that found that the more producers you have on a movie, the worse it is, the worse quality it is, and the less profitable it is. So I obviously was very interested in this as a producer who has been fighting against the proliferation of credits and how many people claim to do my job. And so I wanted to sit down with him today. And because Steven follows is an acclaimed data researcher and industry consultant, whose work has appeared in the New York Times, the Guardian, telegraph, Newsweek, the evening standard, and more. And Steven's been a BBC Radio 4 contributor on the business of film. He's consulted for the Smithsonian and Guinness World Records. And has taught producing and creative practice at National Film and Television School, NYU, Met Film School, and other institutions. A multi-award winning writer and producer. Steven has produced over 100 shorts and two features. And shot films in more than a dozen countries from the circle line to the Arctic Circle. Presently Steven co-runs Kat Snake, a story you'll see which helps clients use story telling to change hearts and minds. And Steven's biggest passion is to try and understand how the industry functions and whatever possible why. So I obviously feel that he is a kindred spirit to me. So say to him today for a deep dive into film data, creative strategy, and the real business of producing. Enjoy. All right, I'm here with Steven. How are you, Steven? I'm good. Thank you. How are you? Well, thank you. Are you in the UK right now? I am. And so it is barely the evening, but already pretty dark here, because we've lost all the life, so we're all in perpetual darkness now. I reached out to you because you recently republished a story that you did about producers and how if there's too many producers, the quality goes down and this is sort of a follow up to your original reporting that if there's too many producers on a movie, it's less profitable. So you, you quickly became like the hero of all the producers that I happen to work with and know. And that story was so well received and felt around the producing community that I thought I would give you a little more time to talk about that because I think I love data that proves what we've been trying to say for years. Part of the reason why I brought this podcast back was to talk about the hearts and minds of the community and the people at large who understand what producers do. And you, you have a reputation and you've had a very big career of kind of proving that point, of showing people what producers do, you're a producer yourself. But before we jump into all of that, let's talk about your career because you're a data researcher, you're a consultant, you're reporter, you're a producer, you're a storyteller. Help me through quickly kind of how, how you came to be all of these things and tell me kind of where you got your start. Well, it's a great question because I, for me, it made perfect sense. And when I tell it, hopefully it will make sense, but I understand how where I've got to sometimes can be confusing for people. So when I was a teenager, I wanted, I loved movies and I also loved thinking and figuring things out. Like, there were two things I wanted to do and no one could tell me what to do with those things. And in fact, many people suggested that they were opposites to each other, you know, storytelling and thinking. And I like, nah, nah, nah, I don't think so. And so when I went to college, everyone said, study thinking, you know, go do philosophy or something, and then do films on the side because they're small things. So I did the opposite because I take films very seriously. And so I went to film school, became a producer, set up a production company. They started making short film content, TV commercials and still exists. There's 10 of us. And we make storytelling content for charities where we raise money. We do nationwide adverts and stuff. So that was one part of my journey. But over the 15 years or so, 15 years or so ago, I realized it was moving away from movies. Like it was still in film entertainment, but it was, it wasn't movies. And so I decided to think, OK, well, I'll, I'll use my thinking there. I'll use my sort of brain and the passion I get from trying to figure things out in movies. And I started publishing and doing more things. And it's led to all sorts of unusual opportunities. I now work for Guinness World Records coming up with new movie records. I consult for studios. I just did a big piece for an investment bank. And all sorts of new, and so basically people come to me with unusual questions with things that they, maybe they suspect, but maybe they can't figure out. And I love testing industry myths. So for example, John Augustus friend got in contact a few years ago and said, you know, that rule of one page of script equals one minute of screen time, is it true? And I thought, I've been saying that for years and I have no idea. It took a day at most to do the maths. And to be honest, it's kind of true, but actually kind of useless. In the same way that if you're crossing the road, is there going to be a car, probably not? But do you have to look left and right every time? Yes. And it's the same thing here. It's about right, but not useful. And so that was an industry myth. I was happy to tell everyone. I do a lot of teaching, so tell all the students and stuff, but then it turns out not to be true. So since then, I've been very committed. I have a quick story about that. One of my favorite screenwriter stories is my friends got Rosenberg, who was written quite a few movies. He wrote Con Air for us. He wrote on Armageddon. He wrote General Stodder. He wrote the Jumanji franchise. And he was writing, and he got in 60 seconds. And he was wrote half a page of dialogue. And then he wrote, "The chase is on." Exactly. That was it. I think it's the line producer. They kind of have a budget, please. He literally said the director's going to figure all this shit out. And so it's like who the chase is on was one line. And then my other story about that page like thing was Michael Bay had shown me an early cut at his house of Bad Boys 2. And it's the sequence where the humvee comes down through the village in South America somewhere. And it's a 15 minute thing of these things. Blowing the houses and tanks and cars and smashing everything. And after 15, 10, 15 minutes, he hits pause and he goes, "On the page, that was a tenth of a page." But that's it, isn't it? Like so much stuff makes sense generally, but every film's a prototype. Every film is its own project and you need to do each one with the experience and skill for what's actually in front of you. Exactly. Exactly. So was there a movie early on in your life as a young person that you saw that you went, "Ah, ah, there it is. I've got to do this." Well, yeah, there was actually. So it was, I was a teenager. I was in America for an exchange program and I was going on a first date with someone. And I was like, she was like, "What do you want to do?" I was like, "Let's go to the movies." And because movies back then came out very early on compared in America compared to the UK, I didn't know any of the titles. And all I had was the listing in the newspaper. So none of them made any sense to me. So I picked one at the time that made sense. Like I was meeting her all the time, ate a clock and I was like, "There's an 8 o'clock movie." So walked in, didn't know anything about it. Never heard of this movie. Imagine me sitting there. And then the movie opens with the cold open and it's the matrix. And I honestly knew nothing. Like, what does the title tell you? And two hours later, I don't know how good I was on the date because I've forgotten about her, I think. But the movie, like, can you imagine seeing that cold as a teenager in another country? That isn't the seminal only experience, but that is a big one for me where movies can take you. It's a feeling that you get when you see something like that that just transports you out of your date into this story and makes you realize, "Man, if I could do that for somebody else, wouldn't that?" That's it. You got it. Wouldn't that be incredible? And so when you were coming up through the ranks and figuring out filmmaking, did you know what a producer was? Is that the job you wanted or how did you come about ultimately being a producer? So what happened was on day one of film school. So I'd never filmed anything. So I went to film school in 2001 was the first year. And so I probably could have shot stuff on hi-a or whatever, but hadn't. And I hadn't shot anything. So there's a hundred people in this big lecture theatre. Day one. Hands up who wants to be a director. All the hands go up almost. Hands up who wants to be a cinematographer. Maybe two-thirds. So maybe a third or so because there's a lot of that. It's an art college. Who wants to be a producer? There was this other woman that put her hand up and I thought, "You know what? That sounds like more interesting to me. So I put my hand up." And from men onwards, I had everyone come to me and be like, "Oh, could you produce this?" And I was like, "Yeah, yeah, sure. Let me find out what that is first, but I will definitely do it." And so I ended up producing so much stuff. I mean, awful, awful projects because it's college, right? But I did and I just did it through volume and I learned it and then after that when I was out in the real world and I was supplementing my agency income, my company I ran obviously not making loads of money when you set them up. So I was doing teaching in the evenings and I used to teach at the Met Film School, the National Film School. And I got a sort of into a niche of teaching courses for adults who wanted to come into producing. So they were quite experienced usually older than me, but they had a life somewhere else. And they wanted to do, you know, 12-week course twice in the evening to learn just the foundations of the industry. And through meeting those people and talking with them twice a week for months on end, I really got to understand more about what isn't a producer as well as the projects I was shooting myself. And so now that you've done the job for years and you've been a reporter and you've really studied this, what do you consider to be the definition of a good producer? Getting what you want and then the other person says thank you. And that applies to every element from development all the way through distribution. I've got a slightly more serious answer, but although that is true, I think keeping the relationships even when you have to make the tough decisions and jokes aside, no one thanks you because you know you have to cut the budget so it continues. But every person, every place you cut it won't only see the cut, they won't see the benefit. But I think that I realized early on that almost nothing would actually be my fault if it went wrong, but everything was my responsibility. And so it's that responsibility. I think that's what I think of producing is that you're taking this and you're taking it maybe as a sort of parental figure or as a kind of authority figure, but you're saying because a week we had, there was a car accident coming, no one was killed, but there was a car accident coming off from one of our sets and I never been in a car accident before. And I wasn't in it. I was in one of the further cars and I'd had the call from someone and I went down there and I was basically directing the scene, called the insurance, put those people there, all this sort of stuff. And I had to do a list of what had happened. And I spoke to the production designer who was actually in the car that was hit. And I said to her, right, tell me exactly what happened in what order this was that evening. And she said, right, so the car hit us, I called you and then I called the police and I did it. And I was like, why did you call me first? And she was like, I don't know, I just thought you'd know what to do. Wow. I had no idea, but my job was to know. And so that was my responsibility, even though it was offset, we were driving home. And I never knew anything about it, but that's what a producer does. And what we are trying to do as producers who really do the job is to educate people on what the job really entails, because a lot has happened in the last few years. And I think you wrote your first article in 2019 about the profitability. On this topic. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And so I would say that tracks because around that time, mid-2000s, the degradation of the producing category, the producing job, the producing fees really began. And what's so odd is that from the perspective of the studio and people that are decision makers, we, the career producers, have really felt like we are useless or aren't as useful as we know we are. And at the same time, so that, from that perspective, the producing line item, the producing title, has really taken a hit of like, what producers don't really do anything. But weirdly, at the same time, everybody wants to be a producer. It's so strange. It's like, producers don't really do much, or they're just fat cats, the chomp and cigars. Or they are terrible people. And at the same time, every actor and manager and director and writer wants to have that producing credit. So it's this weird time in the last, I would say, 10 years that really that has exploded. Well, it makes sense because if you don't really understand the job, you think, I can do that. And if you don't think it has a lot of responsibility, you think, I'll take the credit. You know, like, you don't mind because it doesn't feel meaningful to you. If in the same way that you never trying to get credited as a plumber, because you get a sense, that's a quite complicated difficult job. But if I was ever called and is there a plumber in the room, I wouldn't be able to help. Whereas I think most people, because they don't understand the complexity of producing in all its flavors and all its scale, they feel confident to say, yeah, I am a producer. So if someone would say, is there a producer in the room, they'd be like, yeah, I could probably do it. So it's two effects of the same thing, the devaluation and the lack of understanding. And what understanding they do have, it's like, we're the boss. Like, that's the best credit to have. And if you have that producer credit, you have more control, you have more power. And yet the studios for the most part and the buyers and the financiers are like, yeah, anybody can do that job. I think also it's a lot of the other jobs have done a better job at protecting it. Like, the writers are a great example. And if you look at before the WGA started to do the work that they do now, you saw a, and this was what caused them to take action initially way back when you saw a proliferation of people saying, well, I'm a writer. And some people legitimately thought they were because they wrote five lines of dialogue and they feel like they were the important lines. But then there were lots of people who were just like, I'll stick my name on it. And the writers stood up and stood together. And that's now the hardest to sort of get through. And the producers, historically for most of the history of cinema, I haven't done that because they're more focused on getting the film made. It's less important. And I think, so yeah, I think that's why I think there's less space to get a vanity credit in other areas. Well, in the paramount to create and the unionization effort back when when it failed because they claimed that we were the people who are hiring and therefore couldn't be in a union. So we're completely unprotected. It is the only credit you can give away. You can't give away a best boy credit. You can't give away any other credit. The only credit you can give away is a producer credit and they do that freely, which leads me segueing into your incredible research of the two stories that you did. The first story is the headline is, the more producers you have, the less profitable your movie is. And the second story was, the more producers you have, the worse the movie is in quality. So what led you to write the first story and then again, then what led you to write the second story? Well, these are sort of data exploration. So I don't start with an answer. Almost all my work is a genuine question. It's not one of these things where I'm asking a rhetorical question and I know the answer. I'm genuine interest in the answer. And I publish things sometimes that I don't agree with or I don't like the answer of that's fine by me. I would say 80, 90% of the time I write an article, I have no idea what the answer is going to be. I mean, not when I do the writing, when I do the research. Quite often, the best idea has always come from other people rather than myself, but I think of some of the ideas and I think of an area I want to study or a data say I can get access to quite often it builds on previous work. And then I'll start looking for correlations and connections. And then I usually there's a point where I start to talk to people to try and understand why what I'm seeing is there, you know, is it actually a mirror of something else? Because causation and correlation are not the same thing or have I found something that I've just, you know, it sounds like you and I were both having the same belief, but from different perspectives and parallel lives for a long time. And then it's only with the publication, the reading of the article where we both say that's what I was saying. And so I'm not really sort of inventing anything. I'm just observing it that existed anyway. And yet I can now provide a new lens on something that we've all kind of known. And so I knew the where I started my producing credit research way, way before that, I've been looking at producer credits for 10 years or so. I started to have a look at what were full just producer credits and then obviously you've got exec and associate all of the long list that we could go down as well. And I knew that they were proliferating. I knew that they were, they were more of them and certainly within some like exec producer credits growing. And in talking to people, there was quite a lot of stuff about how the meaning was shifting, you know, like, you know, a co-producer, whether in Europe it might mean you're shooting in another country or maybe it's more of a physical job on physical production. There's there's the old adage from David Mammut from the fantastic film state and Maine about the associate producer credit, which is someone says what is associate producer credit and he says is what you give your secretary instead of a raid. So like that had always been like the sort of placeholder, but then I met many people who'd worked on real films and got associate producer credits and my god, they'd worked hard. And so I started to realize that there wasn't a universal, you know, there may be certain studios have the same consistent rules over time, but they're all these little bubbles and the industry is all the bubbles added up. And so I've always thought it's interesting to study and then I think it was actually a piece of work I did around Nicholas cage films. There was a strong correlation between the number of producers on Nicholas cage films and how good the films are. And it reflects I have no inside knowledge about him and he's just one example is not the only person like this, but he went through a period of making films that were for the films and then there's a period where you have to make them to be a worker to earn money for various personal reasons. And then you get free of that and you can choose to make more conscious choices, right. That's fine. We all do that. We've all got to pay rent might be one house for some people in a few more for him, but it's the same deal, right. We're workers. And so you make less discerning artistic choices when you just need to work and that correlation was with producers. So you'd have films where he'd have 20 producers listed because it was a small group of financing and also different things cobbled together and that project and that film typically wasn't very good. And then there the other films that were passion projects led by a small number of strong voices and they would be very good. So that was sort of the genesis and I didn't think it was although Nicholas cage has produced a variety of and a large number of films it was a good starting point. And obviously you're not going to tell the whole of the industry's story just through one man even Nicholas cage like I you can do many things other people can't represent the entire industry by himself right. So walk me through how you win about the story and what the actual story revealed to you. Yeah, so I usually try and start with a data set where I gather from multiple sources and I've done this over time. So there'll be you know Wikipedia and I work a lot with the numbers and IDB and lots of other sites and I got this master list of movies and a master list of credits. And that's the it's we should acknowledge that's less than perfect. You know these are sites where people can say anything they want. And also people in some areas don't get credited the visual effects community have a horrible under crediting relationship you know that might be 60 people at work in a certain company and they were only allowed to credit 20 people but. But with producers I thought certainly over the course of all these movies it would make sense so I looked at all movies that had a domestic release since 2000 to 2021 so just over two decades. And then I had to start saying okay well I know I think I know what a producer credit is but I need to sort of flag these up so I looked at the most ones the most popular in order so producer exec producers associate co producer. But then you start finding some strange ones in some places delegate producer creative producer and I sort of put them in another category because they are very valid but that's not what I'm looking at what I'm looking at is just the word producer or producer PGA. And so then I know how many people have produced and as I said it's it's quite large so the average across the whole time period was nine different types of nine producers per movie. Which is huge and that includes execs and assist associates but even normal producers it was in 2000 yeah in 2000 it was 2.1 producers just sold producer and that increased to 3.3 20 years later so that's 50% increase in the number of people on average. So something shifting that's the first step as I'm like okay so I can see the industry is changing and then you start saying well what is it correlate with you can't say what causes it because you don't know the cause and effect but you do know that these two things tend to rise or fall together. And that's where I look at financial outcomes you try and measure art through critics ratings and you try and measure popularity through IMDB ratings these are quite crude but you know they help give us clues I mean we all know we're in an art form. And you can't you know reduce everything to a number but the same time there are some standards that we could use to look for clues and exactly as you said I found that. As the number of producers increased the quality of the films by whoever you asked whether it's audience or critics reduced. And then so we're left saying why you know the numbers can't tell you why they can only tell you what I mean what's your reading why do you think that is why do you think. The movies with way more producers are not as good let's start with the first question is why did it increase by 50% over the last 20 years. I mean I do think films are more complex but I don't think they're radically I don't think they're 50% more complex than I don't think. But also the model of leadership is for movies is kind of based on the army post in a second world war you know movement orders and all that sort of stuff so you need a small tier at the however big of for project is even you know Avatar needs a creative voice at the top. And if you're making a micro budget film you still need one voice so that doesn't really scale with production. I think it's I don't want to say it's as quick that it's vanity but it's definitely inflation it's definitely people who previously would have been happy with the lower tier producer credit. And it's also I mean I when I first got into the industry I did loads of short courses I attended loads of short courses and there's people like dove sims who would say what you want to get is you want to get a sole producer credit no one else's name on screen just have it on there it'll help your career. And so that from him and from many people like him not only him the collective wisdom was you never get paid for your first three movies you'll never get the appreciation you want but you'll make some contacts maybe you make some money for investors maybe not. But what you should really make sure you get is your credit because then you'll know you're in and so I think that became the wisdom and more people fought harder. I don't think the job I don't think there were more producers I think there were more people credited as producers. I think that the job of producer really became glamorized in the 90s you had all these big action producers with big big personalities. They were finally being credited as their movies so you think about Peter Goober John Peters Joel silver Scott Rude and Linda Oaks don steel like these people really were very glamorous it felt like a big job Jerry Brookheimer and Don Simpson just felt like the 90s and 80s were like the time where they were living large and it would end. A lot of them wrote books and so a lot of the books a lot of books on the movie business were from the point of view of a producer and the way that the producers came about doing their jobs and how they describe their jobs felt to people that they could do it. So a director you kind of felt like oh I'm not really a photographer I don't really understand performance I don't know it feels like the barrier to entries a little harder obviously writing same thing acting for sure but producing felt attainable these you know the way that the books described it in you you know all of these all of these people became household names became their movies. Jerry Brookheimer production he's got Rude and production and Joel Silver production and I think a lot more people thought that's a job that I want to have that and it's attainable that's the first piece of it and then as more and more people inside of the business craved that especially actors and directors and writers the business affairs people saw an opportunity that they could give these credits away instead of monetary. So if you have an actor who who is tired of being on set and being told what to do and wanted a voice at the table really felt like they wanted to be a producer business affairs could very easily say fine we'll give you producer credit but you're not going to make the extra two million you want as an actor and either they took the fee as a producer or took the credit and Louis Vuffy that became a practice that still holds this day. And that just then that just exploded that business affairs like this is cool we can give these things away like candy people want them and we're saving all this money or we're throwing all these people into a pot which has a cap and whatever that pot is however big it is throw everybody in there let these dumb producers figure it out. It's not constant anymore money let they'll all figure it out and as you said the people that are already in the pot that are the producers are desperate to get their movie made so they're like okay whatever it takes throw them in we'll figure it out we'll carve it up and you know so I think that that those two things that the producing job being like a spotlight held on it it's a credit that you can get because you don't have to be in the union to get it they're giving these credits away like candy. So all of that together was one half of it the other half of it is exactly where you're talking about a Nicholas cages career I made nine movies with Nick so Nicholas cages career is very interesting because he got he he did a lot of really interesting experimental cool films early in his career then he did some independence with like Mike biggest and people like that got the Academy award then we got a hold of him. And we did you know we did big studio movies turned him into a turned him into a big action star but at the same time he's such an artist he was still doing bringing out the dead these other movies that kind of felt odd and strange and then his economic issues became very apparent and he had like you said he's and what an amazing human that he didn't declare bankruptcy and tell his credit or still fuck themselves he said I'm going to pay each one of them back I'm going to do a lot of these movies. And then he got into the those guys that aren't producers that are just bullshit artists and you know and those guys just paid him a million bucks to shock her a couple days and so and those guys those independent. Schlockfest motherfuckers are the people that have ruined because they will give away give them the full title yeah they will give away credits like candy they're they're the worst they're like give me some money I'll put your daughter in a movie whatever it takes here it is I'll give a credit away and so there's so many. You know 59 60 quote unquote producer credits on these movies that that's the other half of it now there are independent movies that are great and people are legit and they do it I'm not talking about that those also have a lot of producers on it because like you said sometimes these movies are hard to get made in fact one of the comments on your early story that you did with somebody who had made a movie with Paul Greengrass and it's like man we have a really bring a lot of different investors in this was a very expensive movie at the time and we were forced to bring a lot of people in and the people that give the money they want to see their name on screen and what else credit are we going to give them like hey this dude gave a lot of money by I mean it has to be has to be something so they give them these credits so it's like three buckets right so it's like the studio bucket that a lot of people wanted that job to be the quote they wanted to do the job like they legitimately wanted to be a producer they those credits got taken and because there are a lot of great ones used in Margot Robbie and Ryan Reynolds just people are really doing Johnson they really do the job they're in there doing the job they wanted to be producers on their projects because they wanted to steer their careers more in the direction that they wanted Adam Sandler I mean there's a million of them and they're absolutely legitimate but it obviously makes more producer credits and then you have the second bucket which is the schlocks and then third bucket which is legitimate independent film which is just really hard to get made and there's no other credit to give away but the credit and so I would think that the first piece the profitability piece tracks because the bigger the movie for example a Marvel movie yes it has a lot of different kinds of producers but really it's like Kevin Feige and the line producer right those are the two main producers I would say realistically a movie only needs two producers to make I mean in terms of practicality a really good creative producer that is the person that's going to be involved in the entire process from the idea iteration all the way through a post and that person is responsible for keeping track of the overlying vision the protector of the vision of the movie and you need a really solid line producer that knows all the ins and outs of making the day work that's really the only two people you need granted I think you mentioned in your story you you liked having partners me too I mean I like other people around bounce ideas off of not saying the movie will be better with only one person there's amazing producing partners you know Marty Bowen and with God free back in the day Jerry and Don Simpson there's just lots of them but practically you really only need two and so any number above two is got to be completely warranted voluntary and in my opinion should be the sole discretion of the lead producer of the movie and there's no one as strong as WGA to have done this yet yet but there is a place which we know well which has grappled with this which is the academy right you know they had the problem where too many people were flooding the stage they're seeing all of these credits and so their rules I believe correct me if I'm wrong but there's a maximum of three producers and it has to be producer you can't you're not going to get an exact producer but what's interesting is that the academy actually falls foul in my opinion of the other thing we were talking about at the top which is that there isn't a producing award it's called best picture now it is the producing award but it's another example that the producers aren't personally thanked their name sure and I'm not I'm not claiming victimhood here but that's the one at the end where everyone comes and we all won the film won but the director won that other award the writer won that other award the actor and the supporting actor won that with all the crew and so there's the project I think the academy have definitely got it right to say three and to say you have to tell me who those three are and there's only exceptions in rare cases but I do think that they perhaps best picture is not synonymous with best producer I think yes I think those rules are slightly changing I'm hearing I don't know the specifics but yes the academy definitely wrestles with it and again I think also the producer getting the best picture award also leads to why more people wanted to be producers because they want to be up on stage for the best picture award and so I also think the academy wrestles with it and again it's tracts in the last 20 years because that's where the real shift of the academy award and it's completely starting with Miramax for that really shifted towards more independent movies getting that award we used to be before Miramax it was a mix of just big big and small movies Miramax really cemented that campaign so where those smaller independent movies are really dominating the academy awards and pretty much continue to dominate them to this point because they're independent they have more producers because it's harder to get made and more people would have to invest and there's more companies involved and therefore you have that 30 people standing on stage that got the movie made but they have to make a termination of who actually "produced" the movie yeah and so I think that those those things all intermixing of more people wanting the credit and the credits so easily gave away created a system where there are "more producers" what in your opinion is the reason why movies are not as good and less profitable there's more producers and then ultimately what do you think can be done about it it's what you said I think there is a flood at the bottom of the you know good films whatever we want to call good but let's just call you know this thing imagine what we think of as good films are probably ones that have a strong creative voice in some way and producing as a creative voice as well the top producers you name you can identify what those films are sometimes across the directors they've worked with and so that tends to be a small number of quite powerful people or at least very focused people at the other end if you've got a film that's coming together from lots of different sources from lots of different things it's much more likely to be fragmented it's not likely to have a strong script I mean it still could they obviously neither of us are saying that it's impossible it's just what we're seeing across everything and it's just more likely to be fragmented and made for different reasons and be one of these things that is where we shot in Monaco because of the tax credit we hired this person because their father has got the money you know whatever that might be and there is a I see the hard work and the the really tenaciousness of those people I would argue that's a different job to what you're talking about creative producing in authoring a project pushing it forward in the heart of the industry that although they both are all called producers I think the person that does that is a different kind of skill set than the person who's hustling who's always looking for another dollar somewhere else and you know we might have views on which we think is a more legitimate job fundamentally everyone as long as they're acting ethically and legally they're doing things but they're not doing the same thing and I think that's really interesting to me you know I've got friends who have got producer credits in the hundreds probably more likely exact producer credits than producers but what they think of as producing is fundamentally different to what you're talking about and I think that the lack of any kind of incentive not to just do whatever's in the your interest in the immediate short term to get this particular project made has produced uncertainty and wild behavior which is as I said the opposite that you see with writers because the writers have got such a clear mandate union they stand together and so it proves that if you want something in probably any business but certainly our business you've got to say what you want you've got to get people around you and you've got to hold the line whatever you are and producers just haven't done that because they've been thinking about the project and so producer doesn't it doesn't mean anything across all job or all different areas I mean we don't have to even talk about take TV where a producer is an entirely different thing to a movie producer both legitimate but different I don't think you have that with actors in TV and movies like this TV actors movie actors but it's the same job same skillset yeah so I think there's that and so I think it is fundamentally there's more I mean I there's it's like a swimming pool it's noisier at the shallow end so where where you've got more producers you've got more films that are just not being made for artistic creative reasons and so more of them a crap right I mean that just sort of stands the reason to me what would you suggest be the solution to this problem well okay so there's two steps here is this a problem and what are the solutions well it's not a problem for some people because some people are benefiting from it but it is a it is a problem for other people and and this is almost a PR problem more than anything else because we're not talking about automatic rights of money or power or authority we are literally talking about credits and you might well be like oh I have an exec producer credit but we all know that if there'll be some small number of people in the project who legally control what happens so this is about PR and perception not to devalue it but just to say that this is not about people joining a union just to get the health care benefits there's there's no benefit outside of the credit so there's a little bit about re-educating people about what a producer is I think there are extreme solutions like actually protecting producer credits but you'd have to expand that you know the PGA do that a bit but it's a smaller group you'd have to make it you'd have to do what you know writers or whoever or even the DGA do around who the director was that project you'd have to build a system get enough people to agree to it and it would have to include people that you perhaps don't you know the edge of it might be people that you don't think are legitimate producers because if you draw it too small you're just saying you know these people whereas actually you need to be saying no this class this job this this idea of what producing is where the capital P is this large cohort but I I think there's two ways things happen with in Hollywood either through consensus or power and I don't know which is the better route you either go around convincing the studios and the other fellow producers like come on we all know this let's let's do the right thing whatever and then largely it rebalances itself with some people ignoring it or you decide to not necessarily fight but you decide to use the stick rather than the carrot and you say right we're not going to do X or Y until A or B happens and I don't know so Hollywood is full of examples of the former and it's full of examples of the latter I'll tell you once you've done one and it went well or not with you to the right thing or not or I will yes so here's what I think I think that I think it's a multi-acroned approach the first is that you write the education which is something that I'm trying to do personally I know that the PGA has their mark I'm in this group called Producers Uniting what we're trying to do is we have a checklist of all of the things that a producer does and what is expected from our point of view what you should do as a producer and so what we're saying to people before they take the credit is if you really are going to take this credit here is the list of things we are going to expect you to do go on scouts be responsive for the budget be responsible for insurance be responsible for the safety and set the list goes on it's very long and involved and so we say to our partners that people that want a partner with us are you prepared to do all these things if you're not you are then great then let's do it together and let's lock arms and do the job I mean if you're a director you're expected to show up every day and direct the actors like you don't get to like pop in and pop out like I'm a director but I won't be there so if you're going to take the credit we want you to the big P credit we want you to partner with us in a responsible way I would think that the studios the buyers the financiers would also want that if you're giving somebody a credit if you're saying to somebody hey you're going to be the caterer hey you know what first thing could you show up every day and cook the food for everybody on the list of things you expect for every job so we have this list now that we've given to our lawyers we've given to the studios we have and we say to them fine you want a partner and be a producer then you're expected to do these things that's the first thing so educating people on what the job is it is is the first piece of it the second piece of it is you know like you said what we would like to do is really make the EP credit a real thing with a clear definition of what an EP credit is is you're an executive producer maybe you're an executive at a production company maybe you're a writer who who had the rights and shepherd this thing through development maybe you're someone who gave a money then really make that a catch all for people that were helpful in getting the movie made but aren't responsible for the producing of the movie in the classic sense and so by doing that by making that credit you know more defined than you're not throwing everybody into that credit you're throwing those people in who are on the outer sphere of the of the universe to help get the movie made then that should be a legitimate credit and be worth something and then the big P credit will be even more clearly defined and even worth more because one of the problems with the PGA mark at the PGA is that it actually incentivizes lawyers and other people to just give everybody a credit because the PGA all sorted out so it's actually has a weird sometimes a reverse effect where more people are given the producer credit because the PGA mark will be sorted out that just puts a tremendous strain on the PGA to sort every one of these movies out and of course then everybody appeals because every is a Guam producer on the movie if there was a more clearly defined more rigorously defined job description of what a producer does then that credit would be more easily defendable. What's your view on the associate producer credits? Again you have to like really because I had Stacy share on which I'll air in a little bit and she was given a co-producer credit on her early movies and she was at Jersey Films so again like you said the definition has got all wonky there's co-producer, associate producer, nobody can really define what the hell that is and features anymore. Everything has kind of been just lumped into EP credits now. Again I think you're right that associate producers and co-producers are really reserved for younger people that are getting the training which isn't even happening on movies anymore necessarily so this is what the first piece of it is clearly defining what those jobs are clearly defining what an EP is and really clearly defining what a producer is because there are so many different factions and chunks of work there is the development there's production and there's post-production and so there are people that were like well I helped develop the script therefore I should get a producer credit as opposed to the person who goes all the way through so it may come in just during production and be like well as they're on set I should get a producer credit and we have to clearly define that if you're going to get that big P credit you should be all the way through or at least be the lead producer that is responsible for those things all the way through. That's key isn't it? I think if you're advertising and educating people the unattractive parts of getting a full big P producer credit you know turning up time commitment legal responsibility whatever it might be I think you'll find more people go no actually can I just have an exec? Can I just have the credit? I don't want any of the extra worker responsibility That's good so it's almost like making your jobs seem less attractive by sharing more of the reality of what I mean when you see things go wrong on productions they collapse or someone gets hurt or something like that and then suddenly there are actors who are also full producers they don't want to be producers anymore and maybe they were producing maybe they weren't if they knew up front they were more responsible they might have been happier with an exec and just sit back in the trailer Well the exact quote was I was a producer but I didn't have any responsibility for any of those things but you do. So yes in their definition they didn't and their expectation they didn't but in reality you should that's not to say that every producer you know must be there every day on set as long as you are responsible for everything and you are overseeing everything and you have oversight on everything yes there's always going to be you know exceptions to the rule but for the most part what we define it as you're there every step of the way you're responsible in every possible way and yes I don't want to say that it should be less attractive but it should attract the right people as opposed to everybody and so if we can more clearly define what we do and get the people that really are passionate about doing that job a lot of things will happen number one the people that really want to do the job will do it will be trained better hopefully they'll be better at it and then there's you know all like you know high tide raises all ships if a more good people that just want to do that job or if you're an actor or a director and you also want to do that job correctly that's great that tide will rise and that will make people think the producing job is more valuable and the more valuable people will be doing the job and you'll realize that that's the real job and it actually is beneficial as you have found out through your data when you have a small group of really talented people doing it you'll have more profit and you'll have a better movie what it makes me think of is I don't I don't have kids but my sisters do I am a really good cool uncle I took them to Disneyland recently they're staying over Christmas but I give them back and I get to be a really I take it to my skating and then I'm going to go for dinner with my father by myself and it's going to be quiet to parents don't get to do that and I respect that and at no point do I confuse myself with being those kids parents despite loving the kids we're being responsible I am a cool uncle and exact producer is a cool uncle it is not a parent exactly and I would really love it to be as valuable and as cool as a cool uncle definition everybody is gunning for the big P producer credit and it is just creating a lot of problems and also part of it the other side of it in the degradation of the credit is yeah there are bad actors there are not good people that do that job and they're because there's so many people and the barrier to entry is non-existent other than just getting the work done or finding a way to get it done that there are bad people in moral ways they're bad people in financial ways they're bad people in criminal ways they're bad people in talent ways and I understand that because there's so many people that have been flooded into the credit that there is a strong feeling that not all producers are great in fact a majority of them or a high percentage of them aren't great but that then degrades the entire industry for what we do and we're trying to take that back too if you see this list and go through this list of all the things we demand like people produce your credit if you really are responsible for all those things and take that job seriously you have to be on point and you have to be good at it or you will be very quickly not doing that job and like you said wanting to be the cool uncle again which is fine with us so that's a real huge thing for all of us that we're trying to accomplish is make everybody understand somebody who's paying somebody to do that job demand that they do that job at a high level I think that's it the link of responsibility and actually doing it makes sense what should I study next what's the next thing about producing credits the job of producer what's the next thing that you know to be true but you need the data you need something to someone to go and actually find out is this true love to find out and I don't even know how to do it if in the last 20 years I mean you've kind of done it because I think that a lot of studios and financiers feel that they can do the job of a producer themselves or their execs can do the job and that again what they're viewing the job as is go and set monitor it if anything happens and I don't know I wish there was a way to figure it out there's no way to figure out if a movie had a weak producer and a strong executive is the movie going to be better or worse than a strong producer and a good executive it's hard to find out instinctively we as producers kind of know and I've done the job executive and especially now where there's fewer of them and you have let's say you're a studio and you're going to make 10 to 12 movies a year you have a certain number of executives that are responsible for those if you have an executive that's forced to go on set for two or three months that executive can't do the job on the other movies I would think the trickle-down effect would be that those movies get worse so I think it's the snowball that people aren't really understanding the higher it's certain companies that the higher up so I'll let my executives do it what producers all they do is just sit on set they don't do anything and so you guys go do that job so you have some you know poor 24-year-old who's never done the job sitting there and everybody suspicious of them because they're the studio and they're the suit literally figuratively a great story about Jerry Brachhammer when I was the executive that person's conflicted so Jerry Brachhammer and I love Jerry he's one of my mentors I did so many movies with him he actually had a different mindset of it he loved that I was there because then he just had direct access to me to say yes or no then it was my problem so he's the best he would go and then his mind it was done and then I'd have to sort it out but I so wanted I always had such a producer mindset I so wanted him to like me and I was so in awe of him and I learned so much from him great so I don't mind if the executive wants to go and learn from a great producer there's nobody better than Jerry at doing it so Jerry early on in my experience with him we were doing Conair in my boss said you got to get a cut of day we're over budget and I was like oh okay so I know I early prepped things I like pitched my heart out about this thing I didn't totally believe it was a great idea but I'm like we could cut this piece of this you know this action set piece and everybody's like okay yeah we could and Jerry said hey why don't you ride with me in the car on the way back to Salt Lake and they were going down for the park city super big with him he's in the front seat I'm in the back seat and he goes you know there's two ways this can go you can go way to the airport in Salt Lake and go back to LA or you can stay here and go to the set tomorrow with me and I was like I choose the ladder and I go my bosses and I go my bosses and I said I'm staying here with Jerry and we can't cut a day and they're like oh well we tried and I'm like what do you mean we tried he says like both sides are seeing he was pray slightly there and so the fact you survived and kept them on side at the end of the day I didn't have any power what was I going to do really I mean I could call my bosses and say uh oh or I could take Jerry Brookheim we're on as an enemy which thank God I didn't because I ended up doing 11 movies with them and I love him and so my point is I wasn't producing those movies I worked on those movies I'm you know I wasn't the producer of any of the Jerry Brookheim movies he was the producer and he was there every single day and that's how I learned how to do the job great my problem is when one of the higher up says we don't need Jerry Brookheimer you go do it me 24 of me would have been like what the fuck am I supposed to do I would have cut that day the movie would have been worse I didn't know enough to know how to run a movie like that and I think that a lot of execs are being put in that position right now and it's not fair to them and it's not fair to the movie because people don't understand what we do people don't respect what we do and people don't see what we do and I think that when a movie goes well they think it's fucking magic they don't realize that they don't realize that we did our job because we're homeland security like if the if it doesn't happen you did your job so if it doesn't happen was it ever going to happen? yeah everything's your responsibility almost nothing's your fault but and when things go well there's a you know a thousand parents to it and if it goes wrong it's on you. I do like the idea of assigning a much clearer sense of responsibility to each of the two roles of exec or big-people producer and expecting people to live up to that and so expect them to almost you know like whenever anyone says I'm an actor the one the reasons they're scared to say that is they know the follow-up question from whoever they're talking to oh well I've seen you in anything I like the idea that if someone says I'm a producer they're like oh great so where you want set the whole time like I like the idea that there is an immediate kind of okay great so I've assumed these sense of responsibilities or roles and if they should be sort of embarrassed like a false valour kind of thing if they can't say that if it was like oh so what was it like shooting in Guatemala they're like well actually I zoomed in for those bits you're like yeah well you shouldn't be going around telling anyone you're a producer then should you and since we're talking about this producers checklist if you'll just indulge me for a second I'll just rattle off several of the things that we require when someone says they want to be a producer on a movie this is what career producers do this is not the entire list but it is a good portion of it so anybody that wants to partner with us as a producer we expect them to do these responsibilities with us and this is mostly going to be for studio films obviously independent films have a whole other set of criteria but I'll just talk for a moment about producing a studio film so anytime we are involved in projects from the outset we interview the writer and director candidates we hear pitches, takes writers and directors are usually hired by us or in conjunction with the studios we participate in identifying production financing we attend pitch meetings with potential financiers and we remain available for script notes meetings internally with financiers and buyers in pre-production we attend and contribute to all budget and schedule meetings is required by the third party financier we identify and interview line producer candidates we remain available to evaluate and select tax rebates and incentives as required by third party financier we choose principal locations we consult on the post-production plan we identify and evaluate visual effects the post house bids we identify and interview potential department heads and do reference checking we remain available to be on location for official prep, which is scouting budgeting schedule, detailing regular production etc etc we watch all casting tapes we manage communication between the producing team casting director and studio, regarding the casting choices we sign the budget and we share budgetary responsibility when we're in production we do a lot more than this but some of the things we do is we lays between filmmakers and the studio financier and all pertinent creative notes disseminating any pertinent information to director and department heads reporting issues or questions that arise on set both creatively and financially to the studio or financier we manage talent needs during production including scheduling issues, travel living details, creative concerns etc we assess supervisor report on ongoing budgeting scheduling and cost reporting to the studio or financier we ensure production conforms to certain specifications including runtime, mpa rating, budget and schedule we attend meetings before, during, and after shooting days to respond to emergencies schedule, creative and budgetary problems as the need arises and then in post production we supervise post production, communicating between post production and the studio financier on editorial, visual effects, score, source, music etc we identify and hire the editor, music supervisor and composer we ensure production conforms to post production schedules and budget we remain available to attend editing sessions per the director's needs and post director's cut period we are available to attend and participate in any and all test screenings to improve final mix and visual effects then in marketing and distribution we attend required planning meetings review and sign up on all marketing materials we ensure and deliver talent, attendance and participation for all required marketing and publicity needs the list goes on and on and on and on of things that we think it's basically things we know that we are responsible for doing and so if you're going to do the job we want to define it and say okay here's the job do this job with us you should get the credit if you're doing those things I think by helping to define this on both sides especially on the buyer studio side hopefully we can start to unpeople to understand yeah why are we giving all these credits away yeah why are we having so many producers on the movie that aren't doing the producing job right you don't have you said it perfectly it's like oh I was talking to the actors on set so I should get a co-director credit like that's not the way it works DJ won't let it happen and because we're not a union we have a harder time and what we're trying to do through this podcast to produce this united through just educating people and going to the studios and talking to them is to make people understand which is factually having good people do the job that they're supposed to do that they're being paid to do the other point the other point is which very odd to me is if you have people that are quote-unquote producing the movie but are in an office somewhere doing something else like they're a manager you're being paid a salary to do that job and you're not doing the job I can't think of another job like even if you worked at Starbucks you don't also get to drive Uber during your shift like you're being paid to do the job not to say that producers don't do multiple taking zooms and doing things while they're on set but what's odd to me is paying someone a salary to not do a job so what we're trying to do is get everybody on the same page so that A you want to take the credit if you do the job B you'll understand what the job is if you want the credit if you're going to take the credit do the job and if you're paying for somebody to do the job pay them to do the job they should be doing the job you're paying them for what do you think is the biggest barrier or friction you're going to face in trying to get this to happen I just think it's so entrenched and it's been going on for so long without people really doing anything about it that it's a very big ship to try to turn around it's going to be turned around slowly so many agents encourage their clients to start their own production companies and I want to say take the kind of destiny of their own careers but that's not even really true if you're an A level actor you have the most power on the set so it's not a power thing and if you want to develop projects people will buy them for you you don't have to be a producer so I think that it's just sort of become entrenched because of what we talked about before the academy the film, you know, a production by the idea that the producer is the boss that that's been entrenched from the agent and management side credits because they want to be close to their clients and they want to quote-unquote protect their clients if you have good producers that shouldn't be an issue but I could see that that's the reason why I think that business affairs and from the studio side it hasn't really, it's been no skin off their nose who cares? They give them a credit and other producers have to pay for it so A, it doesn't cost you anything B, they seem to like it what do you care? You'll just you'll limit your space and say hey, everybody's got to share cards so I think all those things together the only people that have really been like hey whoa are the people who do it at a high level on a day-to-day basis you're like whoa wait a second we've got a lot of people on the football pitch and there's only 11 good players and there's like 40 people and the other 29 aren't doing much they're running around getting in our way I was about to say that it's not even just they're not doing much, it doesn't really help the game it doesn't help the game but hey, they're happy and they get to tell their mom hey watch tonight, I'll be on the pitch so if you were to give advice to any young people coming up right now and wanted to get into this business as you were coming up through the ranks what advice will you give them now because you've seen it kind of from all sides right from the research side from the writer side as a reporter and as a journalist and also as a hands-on producer what advice did you give them I think that it's very easy to get to think there are shortcuts even if it's reading the statistics or reading a single book or an article and feeling empowered and those things are useful but there's no substitute for meeting people, for being on set for doing the work you have a unique problem, it doesn't teach you how to solve that problem in the future because that may never happen again right, film is so unique every film is a prototype, every problem is unique but what it teaches you is how to overcome problems in general and I think that there's no substitute from that you just said it, you can't work from home, it's not a work from home job it doesn't mean you can't do some of it from home but fundamentally it is an active profession so I would say the best thing you could try and do is see yourself as a verb, not a noun so a noun is just the name a producer, like that is my death, my identity whereas that's not the right way to see it the right thing is I am someone who produces like I do that, I am a verb and I think that is something that is you are unable to say anyone to say you're not doing it and you're unable to say I've nailed it forever it's a practice, not a place and you start to realize that it's a way of being and it is about treating everyone in certain ways and always acting with consistency whether you think you're being observed or not whether there's a quick buck to be made or not and I think that's where you learn the job and you learn what will help you tomorrow when the elephant is escaped but you can't kill it because it's a rare elephant and you know what I mean, the kind of the unusual thing that producing gives you and one thing you said earlier today was that singular vision, singular artists the more you can find property and projects that inspire yourself and you have passion for it and you're the right person to bring that story to life and you're passionate about it and you have a point of view and the more that it speaks to you personally the better off you'll be the fewer people that you need to get involved and obviously you have to get your movie made but the more that you can find like-minded people that really have passion for it the less like you'll be to have 60 people come in and give you money you'll make it for less you'll be a personal story and it'll probably resonate with a lot more people 100% and that's what I want as a consumer I want to sit in a cinema and I want to be taken on a journey and it is a collective journey with multiple people taking multiple roles but I don't need 60 people's average thoughts I don't need that that's not what I go to the movies for and whether it's art or spectacle or anywhere in between I just want a small number of people to really tell me a story they love and they've spent years on and that's worth my entry price and my two hours Well Stephen, thank you so much for your time and your expertise and your thoughtfulness you are a true hero to all producers out there I always end with the same kind of question and that is what's your best memory on set I've had these sort of not out-of-body experiences but these moments where I'm not needed to do anything because everything's working which isn't very often but everything's working and you're sitting there by the monitor and suddenly you're in awe of the people around you you're like a combo and you see the amount of effort the costume designer does just on the final checks and that little thing that you think no one will care about but he or she loves that thing and then the director has this and then you see something in the act as eyes and I'm gonna try something and you just can't believe you get to be here and I just I've had that sort of as I said not really out-of-body but like these little flashes they don't last long because usually someone runs up to you and says there's a problem the elephants escape but like in those moments before the elephant gets or you hear about it you just get to feel I can't believe I get to work so many people who love what they do for a living and we're all going in the same direction there's nothing like it in the world Excellent man Well thank you so much please keep doing what you're doing you're doing the Lord's work for us and anyone should send me questions anyone you guys, anyone else stevenfollows.com I will investigate anything I can't promise I can find anything out but I will definitely and the weirdest stranger thanks for tuning in for this episode of the producer's guide if you're a fan of this podcast make sure to rate, review, subscribe and share with your friends and family and if you've got any questions about producing send me a DM on ex@tod_garner I want to thank my producer Steve Delaumater and until next week I'm Doug Garner see you then