Bonus: Abdul El-Sayed Wins in Michigan feat. Bernie Sanders

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But first, the headline. Abdul El-Sayed is now the Democratic nominee for the U.S. Senate race in Michigan. With more than 95% of the vote in, he defeated Haley Stevens by 1 point, 48.5% to 47.5%. And will face former Republican congressman, current Florida homeowner, Mike Pence. On one hand, polls had Abdul ahead of Haley by anywhere between 10 to 19 points. And his team's confidence heading into Tuesday certainly matched that margin. On the other, we have a very progressive Muslim candidate who took on the entire Democratic establishment in D.C. and Michigan, was outspent 11 to 1 by $60 million in outside spending, including a $32 million APAC spend. And that's more than any group has spent in any Democratic primary this cycle. And Abdul still won. Haley Stevens very graciously conceded. And Mallory McMorrow, who had also been in the race, actually introduced Abdul at his victory event Wednesday morning, where he previewed his argument against Mike Rogers. Mike Rogers is a guy who will do anything Blue Cross Blue Shield wants him to do, including raise your rates. Mike Rogers is a guy who introduced legislation, to increase the flow of opioids. He did that while I was in high school. Mike Rogers is a guy whose politics and vision and perspective are old. Mike Rogers is a guy who has never shied away from a corporation he could do a favor for. Mike Rogers is a guy who, believe it or not, went back to Florida so he could lick every single boot Donald Trump owns to beg for his endorsement. I'm so sorry. If you want to hear it, go ahead. If you want a senator who's going to lick some boots, fine. Go vote for Mike Rogers. But if you want a senator who's going to stand up to Donald Trump, then you've got your option right here. Michiganders are sick and tired of BS politics coming in to divide us when there's so much more we can unite to actually guarantee if we're willing to come together around it. So if all Mike Rogers got is that his name is Abdul and my name is Mike, you're going to be surprised how many people are going to be like, yeah, but that's the Abdul who wants to bring down the price of my groceries. And gas and stop us sending money abroad and make sure that I got health care. So, yeah, I like that Abdul over your Mike from Florida. All right. We'll get we'll get to that message in a bit. But let's start with the closer than expected results. What do you make of that? And what happened with the polling? What happened with the polling? That's a great question and a very hard one to answer because we don't have exit polls in this race. So it's hard to measure what the pollsters expected in terms of primary composition to what actually happened. But I will say that Michigan is a very hard state to pull. It always has been. It doesn't have a in-state pollster that is incredibly well-regarded. And it doesn't end in the most well-regarded one that the epic poll, which came out a few weeks ago that had Haley Stevens up 10. So no one seems to know what no one really knew what this lecture was going to look like. Best guess is it. People oversampled highly engaged college educated voters who overwhelmingly voted for Abdul. Hence, the margin undersampled. Taylor's all the time. Yeah. We've seen it happen nationally. We now have it happening in Democratic politics. And I was talking about this on Polar Coaster. This was just coming out on Thursday, which everyone should check out. But it's actually the opposite polling error that happened in the 2025 gubernatorial races where they undersampled highly engaged voters. Oh, really? Well, I mean, it's they were. Yeah, that's right. So it's all very confusing. Let's put all the polling stuff aside. Because the polling stuff only really matters here in one regard, which is it has everyone and mess with everyone's expectations. If the polls have been tied or had shown Haley Stevens up a few points going into Election Day and Abdul won by one, this would be the shot heard around the world. It would be, as you point out, this incredible victory of a Muslim man named Abdul El-Sayed beating the entire Democratic machine, beating APEC, beating Chuck Schumer, beating Gretchen Whitmer and winning. And it would be this incredible victory. But because our expectation was he was going to win by a lot. And that expectation was magnified by the fact that the first counties that came in showed him dramatically outperforming what people expect his margins to be. The expectations got messed up. And so the reason this race probably ended up playing out the way it was always going to play out. What ended up happening here is that Abdul had the typical coalition of a very progressive candidate in Michigan and nationally, which is a lot of young voters. A lot of college educated voters and struggled with the rest of the coalition. And Haley Stevens maximized the rest of it. And you ended up with a very, very close race. Yeah. Someone pointed out that Hillary Scholten, who represents a Western Michigan district, was a big Haley Stevens supporter. Abdul won her district. But Haley Stevens won Rashida Tlaib's district. Yeah. What's going on there? It's like, well, Hillary Scholten's district is a suburban district, heavily white, college educated and lefty progressive candidates do well with those voters. And Rashida Tlaib's district is much more diverse, black voters especially. And that's how more moderate Democratic candidates tend to do well in those places. I think in a place like Michigan. Yeah. Yeah. Um, let's just talk about APAC for a second. Do you think in the end, APAC spending was a net positive or negative for Haley Stevens? Cause like I went into the race when, you know, the, uh, expectations were that Abdul would win by a lot saying that it is clearly a negative because not only did they, um, not help her win the race, but also they provided maybe the most effective argument, um, for her opponents. Um, now you could, you could argue it the other way now that it was only a one point race, but I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, it's a somewhat complicated argument because being associated with APAC, being the APAC candidate was bad for Haley Stevens. APAC has a negative 37% favorability rating among Democrats in Michigan. It also made her the candidate of big money in politics because the APAC ads were so ubiquitous. APAC spent north of $30 million in this race. And so in that sense, it definitely would hurt her and made her an establishment candidate in an anti-establishment environment. However, Haley Stevens was not a great fundraiser. You know, according to ad impact data, um, of the $60 million that was spent on her behalf, 97% of the ads were paid for by someone other than the Haley Stevens campaign. So absent that financial support, it's hard to see how she is this competitive. Conversely, a candidate who did not have that, I think net negative imprimatur of being the APAC establishment candidate might've fared better than Stevens did in a one-on-one race with Abdul. Yeah. I was trying to like doing a thought experiment, um, because I think other Democrats, um, who were more pro-Israel have to contend with this at some point. Um, which is what if Haley Stevens had said, no, I don't want, I don't want APAC's endorsement. I don't want the outside spending. My views on Israel are what they are. I'm not going to change those views, but, um, I just don't think, uh, this outside money, is, is worth it. We shouldn't have outside money in politics. And I don't want APAC's endorsement because I disagree with, you know, the Netanyahu regime, whatever it may be, whatever she could say without completely flip-flopping, which is, you know. Well, I think she could have, I mean, her best move would have been to completely flip-flop or at least have a more nuanced position to put her on aid to Israel with conditions perhaps that put her more in the mainstream of the current democratic party. But the cost of that would be $30 million of APAC money, but she also got north of $10 million in spending by another, uh, super PAC that, that was essentially, I think, a vessel for, um, DSCC donors and people and the establishment in the Schumer world who wanted Haley Stevens, um, similar to the spending that happened on Josh Turek's behalf in Iowa. Yeah. I, I was thinking about that because I listened to, um, Sarah Longwell's focus group podcast with, uh, Jonathan Cohn, who knows Michigan really well, and they talked to Michigan Democrats. And, um, I was surprised by, I mean, the way they viewed this primary was so different than the national discourse and what you see online. Like a lot of those Democrats, like they liked both Stevens and Abdul. And, um, to the extent that there were negative things said about Haley Stevens, so many of these voters brought up APAC and outside spending and money in politics. And it's just, you know, it really broke through not only her ads that, you know, APAC ran on her behalf, but the idea that she was a candidate that was taking all this outside money. And one of the polls that came out from, uh, I can't remember which one it was that was not the Emerson poll, but one of the polls in the final stretch did a word cloud. Now this is obviously overly poor Abdul polls. So take the, with a grain of salt, many grains of salt, but they did a word cloud of, um, things associated with Haley Stevens and APAC is like giant in the middle of that and money and like money, I think is the other very big word in that word cloud. So it definitely impacted her candidacy. It's just, it's very, it's just very, very hard to say how she, could she have raised the money absent, uh, all this support from APAC enough to compete with Abdul, who's an excellent grassroots fundraiser. Could she have, was there a way in which Schumer at all could have funneled more money to her through a non APAC vehicle? Open question. Um, but I think you generally, I cannot see based on these results, um, a 2028 candidate accepting, soliciting, accepting, or courting APAC. You either endorse them or run ads for on their behalf. And if you are a more pro Israel candidate in 2028 on the scale, uh, you know, like on whatever the scale is for 2028 candidates and APAC starts running the United democracy project, whatever it's called, or one of their shadow packs or sort of behalf, you, you have to go like to hold a press conference in front of APAC demanding they take it down. That's sort of what I was, it'll hurt you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That, that, that, that's, that was my thought too, but wanted to see what you thought. Pod Save America is brought to you by Article. Article makes it effortless to build a home that lasts without the boutique markup. Their curated collections of mid-century coastal and Scandi furniture are designed to mix and match perfectly. So you can create a cohesive designer look that will stand the test of time. We've got a bunch of great article stuff at this office. It looks good. Um, it was, they, it all showed up really fast. It was more affordable. 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That's article.com slash crooked for $50 off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more. Pod Save America is brought to you by Wild Alaskan Company. The difference between low and high quality seafood is enormous, but it's also one of those things that's tough to accurately assess for yourself in the grocery store. Wild Alaskan Company offers the best way to get wild caught high quality seafood delivered to your door on your schedule. Each wild Alaskan box comes with individually portioned fillets, vacuum sealed, easy to prep and great for any meal, no matter how quick or elevated. All fish is quick frozen fresh from the Alaskan waters, which helps lock in its freshness, texture, flavor, and key nutrients like omega-3s. It's fish you can trust with no GMOs, antibiotics, or other additives. Every order supports sustainable harvesting practices and Alaskan fishermen whose history is tied to the region and practice. I had some oil back. It's great. I love Wild Alaskan. I really like their tuna. It tastes great. Wild Alaskan Company is so confident that their fish is the best that they offer 100% satisfaction and money back guarantee so you can try your first box risk-free. Go to wildalaskan.com slash crooked for $35 off your first order of premium wild caught seafood. That's wildalaskan.com slash crooked for $35 off your first order. Any other thoughts on the primary race and results before we turn to the general? I mean, there's been a lot of just this morning. You know, Abdul has a lot of work to do. And the whole Democratic Party does to sort of bridge the divides from this pretty bruising primary. I think they're off to a really good start. Yeah. Haley Stevens graciously conceded, had a nice post. And Mallory McMorrow, she introduced Abdul and Abdul was saying all the right things. So everyone, everyone seems to be saying all the right things this morning as of Wednesday morning, which is great. But how big of a challenge do you think it will be for Abdul to unite the rest of the party? I, it does not appear like it's going to be a challenge to re to unite the political establishment nationally and in Michigan. Everyone seems to understand the urgency of the task. I've really, you know, I've been pretty critical of how Abdul has talked about his opponents in this race, especially when it appeared and he certainly believed he was winning. It was not always the most gracious. But he did the exact right thing here. I think his tone was right both last night when he went out and spoke to voters before we knew the results. And then this morning, he responded to Haley Stevens' tweet supporting Abdul in a very gracious way. Gretchen Whitmer immediately endorsed Abdul this morning. The Senate majority pack, which has been rooting pretty extensively, I imagine, as a Chuck Schumer vehicle for Haley Stevens to win, had a video out this morning supporting Abdul. So I think that's a great thing. I think that's a great thing. That part is going exactly as planned. This is a conversation that should be answered. The general is, can the voters in the coalitions come together? I think the activists, even the people who have been the biggest people fighting against Abdul on Twitter, national democratic activist types, this morning were like, Abdul's our nominee. Go support Abdul. Here's how you give to Abdul. I was an Ally McMorrow supporter throughout this race. I donated to Abdul this morning, encouraged everyone in my newsletter to do it. I think people are doing the right thing here. But can you get the voters who just heard $60 million of arguments against Abdul to come and support him? And that is the challenge in the general election. Okay, so let's get to the general. Earlier, we heard a preview of Abdul's general election message against Mike Rogers. Here's the first ad from the Republican Senate committee. Abdul Rahman Mohammed El-Sayed, the most radical Senate candidate in America. El-Sayed pledged support for the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, a designated foreign terrorist group. He wants to hike taxes on Michigan waitresses, delivery drivers, and seniors on Social Security. joined a sex offender and a murderer to demand the mass release of dangerous prisoners and when his ally claimed america deserved 9-11 america deserved 9-11 dude el sayed refused to disavow i'm not here to disavow people's leaders abdul el sayed too radical too dangerous wrong for michigan welcome to the general uh thoughts on kicking the teeth this morning i'll tell you that yeah i like that they combine i like i really like the mix of uh dangerous scary muslim extremist with and he'll raise taxes it's not as dumb as it sounds no i know but it's just like it's it's not as dumb as it sounds and i will say democrats do the exact same thing but it is the um the consultant pollster ad maker brain which is like this is tests unpopular this test unpopular let's jam them together it doesn't matter if they're jammed together in a um in a compelling way or not i think this is we can i don't know if you want to talk about abdul's argument about mike rogers first and then get to this but uh i think this ad is better than a lot of people online think and i think the combining of it actually makes sense yeah why do you think that because when you say that someone wants to like raise taxes on seniors that is a very hard thing for anyone to imagine so you have to prove that they are so radical that they'd be willing to do that and and by you all the other stuff leads to the idea that he is someone so radical that he would do that um and so i do i do think they like this is the argument is he's as incredible radical that he will do these other things that affect you because a person who cares about affordability if they believe if 2024 example if they believe that abdul i mean they're good they're gonna discount a lot of this stuff because the political but they think that he's a little too extreme maybe he says some things in the past but they think he's actually gonna lower his cost donald trump's election proves people will tolerate a lot for someone who will lower their cost you have to make them believe that he will not lower your costs and the way to do that is to make him seem so radical he's willing to do that it's not the best version of that but i understand the argument i think you gotta pick one i think if you are like if i was going to um try to persuade people that he was gonna he's too extreme um and he's so extreme that he would raise seniors taxes you would say he wants to spend this amount here are all his plans he wants to spend this amount of money he needs this much taxes he loves government controlled health care like i would go all like if he's going to be a socialist who's going to raise your taxes you got to make him left on that which i'm sure that that'll be coming um and then they'll of course have another track that is the scary muslim uh extremist i guess the way i was thinking about this ad is it is a preview of and a signal to donors of what the larger argument will be this will all over the course of the campaign manifest itself in some ads that are only about hassan piker and things he has said in the past darkening his skin using his full name and there will be ads about affordability my argument would just be is those things are more connected than i think a lot of democrats naturally assume we are a our ad making is very siloed and there is an economic argument and there's a radical argument and i think in voters minds you are softening the ground for the economic argument by showing someone to be extreme and the candidate who is viewed as more as less extreme tends to win elections in the future and i think that's a good argument and i think that's a good argument and i think that's a good argument and i think that's a good argument and i think that's a good argument in these last few elections and donald trump being seen as less extreme than uh kamala harris was a real warning sign that he was going to win that race well so then let's talk about uh abdullah versus mike rogers because i do not think personally he's going to be able to make voters believe that mike rogers is extreme but it sounded like from his opening message there and what he's been saying about mike rogers that he is going to try to convince voters that it's not about who's the more extreme candidate but who's fighting for you and who's corrupt and that he's going to make mike rogers the more corrupt candidate yes i think his argument there too was also his let's just unload the full clip and see what sticks because there is a there's a combination of he's corrupt there's a combination of he's pro data center there's a combination that he is uh pro corporation and then there is he is a bootlicker for trump i think all of those individually are good arguments and i think that they can go together um yeah we can discuss the um whether that's the whether he's doing that the right way or not but you know i think like this is a state that is a 50 50 state in 2024 it's a plus six and a half to eight point democratic state this time around depending on exactly how the the generic is going to be but i think that's a good argument and i think that's and donald trump's approval rating is under 40 in some polls in michigan so it's like sometimes we overcomplicate the fucking simple around here a vote for mike rogers a vote for donald trump and donald trump to control the senate you know is the and underneath that is a vote for higher costs for you a vote for more powerful corporations vote for tax cuts for billionaires all of that is part of it but that i don't think convincing people that mike rogers himself is corrupt is going to be the argument this is necessarily going to play i think this is what he's contending with and this is a mike rogers specific problem is mike rogers has been representing michigan for a long time or he's been in michigan politics for a long time i think that a lot of voters to the extent that they know who mike rogers is probably remember him as a more moderate republican for sure who might who there's plenty of clips of him speaking out against donald trump um and i think abdul has to make people feel like he's a Republican and he's a Republican and he's a Republican and he's a Republican people realize before he just says that Mike Rogers is going to be a vote for Donald Trump, that Mike Rogers has changed. Because otherwise, I don't think you can go right to a Mike Rogers. Like I know everyone wants to do, and we talked about this in the main Senate race too, everyone wants to just do like nationalize the race, make it about the Senate, make it about control of the Senate. Yeah, I agree with that to an extent, except when you have candidates like a Susan Collins, like Mike Rogers, who the voters in that state know and think of as more moderate and more willing to buck Trump than your typical Republican. And I think in those instances, you've got to do some work on their character to like persuade people that something has changed about them, that they have either like they've been there too long, they've become corrupt, they only care about themselves and their money. They're now willing to do whatever Trump says just so they can keep their jobs and keep their money and all that kind of shit. Like you still have to have Trump be part of it, but you have to do some work on the personality. The Mike Rogers thing is interesting because I have, as I have been arguing for a long time, that this is a very hard race because Mike Rogers is not a MAGA buffoon in the eyes of the voters. Right. A MAGA buffoon like a Dr. Oz or Herschel Walker or some of these other candidates the Democrats benefit from in 2022. There's also no evidence that he is Susan Collins. He underperformed Trump in 2022. I'm sorry, he underperformed Trump in 2024. 2024. And I think that is just, he did not, if he were a candidate who was seen as more, I think, let me put it this way. We all know, the people in Mike Rogers' district know Mike Rogers. He was there for 18 years, I think. We know Mike Rogers because we watched CNN in the 2010s and he was always on and he was a very prominent Trump skeptical voice in the 2016 world. I don't know, it's unclear to me. I don't know if he was a candidate who was seen as more, I don't know, how many Michigan voters know that. You absolutely have to do work on his character for sure to make people understand why the attacks work. But Susan Collins is a very unique proposition in a way in which Mike Rogers is more like running against a generic Republican. I guess also it's tying Mike Rogers to Donald Trump in the same story, which is if we were to talk about Donald Trump right now, we'd say, you know, in his second term, he's fucking out to lunch, corrupt, only cares about himself. It's a second term. It's a second term. It's a second term. He's made everything more expensive while he got rich. And, you know, they've in the primary, the Michigan Democratic Party has a website like pricehikemike.com and they have some great Mike Rogers quotes in there. He talks about coffee prices. He goes, oh my gosh, coffee went up, you know, horror, like being sarcastic. And on tariffs, he said, well, the shoe's going to pinch every once in a while. On gas, he said, we're going to be fine. We got plenty of oil. On a $50 annual physical, he said, that's probably okay, right? And then he said, he said, anyone, you blame Trump for high prices are nuts. Like those are the kind of, I think those are the kind of quotes that both link what you're talking about, which is like, he's just like Trump, but also the guy's way out of touch. And he like moved to Florida and has no idea what people in Michigan are going through. Yeah, I agree. Pod Save America is brought to you by AG1. Summer means enjoying yourself and taking it easy. Maybe some of your wellness goals took a backseat in the process, but that's okay. Now that you're AG1, the non-negotiable part of your routine. One scoop, eight ounces of cold water every morning before the chaos starts. AG1 helps to maintain energy and fortify immune health. 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I did. 1,700 words on no sleep. Look, Abdul's win is incredibly impressive when you put it in the context of everything he was up against. But it is, when you look at the coalition that he won with, it is a coalition that does not bode great for the general election. He overperformed with youth. He overperformed with college-educated voters. He underperformed in rural areas. He underperformed in most rural areas, not all of them. But he underperformed with working-class voters. And he really got his clock clean with Black voters. And the electorate, you can survive, in a primary like that because, in Michigan, because it's almost 50-50 college-educated, non-college-educated voters in a typical primary. Like, we don't have a lot of data on it, but I went back and looked at the 2020 primary between Biden and Bernie, because they had exit polls from that. And it was 53 non-college, 47 college-educated in that primary. And probably in a midterm, it's closer to 50-50 or a majority college-educated. In a general election, if you look at 2024 exit poll data, it's more than 60% non-college-educated. It is significantly older. The number of percentage of voters over 65, I think, goes up nine points. And so all the voters that Abdul struggled most with are disproportionately a larger portion of the electorate in 2020, in the general election. And I think we, you know, he, once again, this is another progressive candidate running for office. He's running on a working-class agenda who did not win working-class voters. And you can't, there's no other way to win Michigan, right? So I think, like, I wrote a bunch of things for Abdul to do. I'll just give you a couple of them here. The first one was unify and sort of, you know, win with grace. And he has done that thus far. I think that's going in the right direction. The second thing was he has to really think about how to not just do better with, with Black voters, but to make increased turnout with Black voters for him. You know, and you can argue that millions and millions of dollars of ads that misleadingly suggested that Barack Obama had endorsed Haley Stevens contributed to this, and I'm sure it did. Yeah. But also, historically, candidates with Abdul's profile of sort of this progressive candidate do poorly with Black voters. And so he's got work to do there. I hope he calls Barack Obama today. Yeah. And starts to think about how he could be, and other, and other Michigan Democrats, others who can help him in that community, he can be validators in that community. He's got to be, I think the lesson here is he needs to think really hard about how to make himself more broadly appealing. I think his campaign was, I found so much of it inspiring and exciting. And like from a communications and messaging perspective, it was really masterful in a lot of ways. But I really, the vibes you got, was a really like my way or the highway. You're with us or you're against us, but. And he now has to go out and persuade a lot of people. Some of them who voted for Haley Stevens. Some of them who are just middle of the road, independent voters who have not thought about politics once since 2024 to support him. Many of those people are going to disagree with him on Medicare for all, on some of the things he's said in the past. They're going to disagree with him on Israel. There's real work to do with Jewish Democrats in Michigan. And you have to, have to be willing to seem like you are open to listening, opening to understanding, opening to agree to disagree and open to compromise. Yeah. And if you, and if you look at the way that his primary, his primary campaign was entirely centered around, and this was an effective strategy because he won, maximizing his base. Rallies with Bernie. Many of the final ads had AOC in them. She's a very, very popular Democrat. And they worked. But he did very little to try to show, show himself to be different than the caricature of himself as a, as this like sort of prototypical leftist candidate. You didn't see, he was either unable to get or did not seek out endorse, endorsements that would be counterintuitive. A moderate Democrat who endorsed them, a business leader who would endorse him, a former Republican or something like that, or putting the, like he talks all the time. And I, I know this happens of these triple Trump voters who are going to, who supported Abdul in this primary because Michigan has an open primary. Why aren't those people in ads? Yeah. Right. You're going to have to, you're going to have to do some things that have a much more broadly appealing. There's more that reaches that you have to actively reach out to people to not agree with you. And the last thing is like, you really, we really have to think hard about, we know he had a very economically centered message, money in your pockets. What is it that did not work with that, with working class Democrats, let alone working class independents or working class dissolution, Trump voters. Is it that it wasn't specific enough? Is it that people, because of the way the race played out, people thought that wasn't his top priority and maybe it was, they thought his top priority was money in the politics or aid to Israel. I think this, this whole conversation about working class voters in the Democratic primary has sort of like gotten out of hand because like we, we taught, we did this with the Platner thing in Maine as well. Like just a few, like Democrats have been doing poorly with working class voters for a long time, as you know. And, and that is true of moderate Democratic candidates. It's true of liberal Democratic candidates. It's true of progressive Democratic candidates. Like we have been losing working class voters to the Republicans under Donald Trump, especially that is, he has accelerated it. And it used to be just white voters. And now under Trump, it was Latino voters and some black men as well. Right. So it is a party wide problem. The left says, if you just like, you know, press the economically populist button hard enough, that suddenly you're going to win over the working class voters. That has not, there's, there's not a lot of evidence that that is true. The establishment and center left Democrats are like, well, the left can't do this and they're not, they say that they're economically populous, but they can't get the working class voters. But it's like, you know what? The establishment candidates aren't really doing that much. There's not a lot of evidence that the establishment candidates are doing that much better with the working class voters that you would actually need to win in a close state. Yes. In a primary Haley Stevens coalition is going to look more working class than a duals, but like in the, in, in a general, in a general election, it's not like there is any Democrat you can point to in the last 15 fucking years, who's really made inroads to the, to the working class in a way that, that would, that would solve this problem, which leads me to believe, which is one thing you could take from this is it is not just about talking up affordability or the right affordability message or the right economic message. Like there are cultural, social concerns that the working class has have, which is why they have moved away from the democratic party that I think we, I think we all have to contend with here because it's like, why is Jared golden winning them in, in Maine too? Um, and is like as moderate as they come on a host of issues, but it's not some like economically populist hero. I mean, he, we don't have to get into the golden because it, and I agree with your, I agree with your point here. I think if you were trying to win this race and you just lost and working class voters in a democratic primary and the core of your vote, voters in a Democratic primary. And the core of your message was pro-working class is worth taking a step back and trying to figure out what you need to do to at least perform better than Kamala Harris did with those voters in Michigan so you can win. Yeah. I guess one way to think about it is we went through this in 08, right? Like we were in a primary with Hillary that lasted 45 years and every single state, she won working class voters and we did not. And the reason. She won working class white voters. That's one giant difference here is the reason why Obama wins. and Bernie and Bill Bradley and all these other progressives can't lose. It's because Obama could win college-educated voters and Black voters at high numbers. The rest of these voters are not doing that. But what we heard incessantly is Barack Obama's been talking about the working class, his policies are geared for the working class, but it's just not working. It's just not working. Why isn't it working? And then, you know, he was, he still maintained that message through the general and won. Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton was like the hero of working class voters in 2008, and then she runs for president again in 2016 and gets her clock cleaned with working class voters. Well, like these things are always, suffer from small sample sizes, but the example for Abdul is Obama, which is we worked really hard to get those voters. And we did it in a lot of ways that were counter to what a typically, a typical progressive Democrat would do based on the playbook. We spent a lot of time, talking about the deficit and making sure people's taxpayer money was spent. And we're going to have the guy from Dave. He was going to go through the budget line by line. Were there, you know, Obama was very, spent a lot of time reaching out to voters who disagreed with him on abortion. This is what I'm getting at. That's what I was getting at. Yes. And I think there's a way in which Israel plays into this, which I'll get to in a sec. And there, look, you cannot be just, I don't want to overlook the fact that both in Obama's case and Abdul's case, race plays a role here. Of course. Right? The fact that he is, that Obama was a black man and Abdul is a Muslim American certainly plays a role. And that then puts a higher burden on you in the general election because life is not fucking fair to do some things that show, because of the ad we just saw, that show that you can relate to these voters culturally, that you're different than the caricature. And you're going to have to find some ways that are, to use the favorite term of some of our moderate friends, it is heterodox or counterintuitive. And the reason I want to bring Israel up here because some people will argue that he needs to moderate on Israel and AIDS Israel in particular to win. And he has done this. And if you actually really listen to what Abdul says, and when he gets asked questions, he is very good at talking about, about reaching out to Jewish Americans who disagree with him, right? So he, but he has work to do there, obviously, you know, and all the money, the money spent against him does not, you know, is why he has a little bit of this deficit and some of his supporters, his most prominent supporters are why he has a bit of this deficit. But independent voters in Michigan and nationally agree with Abdul on AIDS Israel. Independents are basically very similar to Democrats on this issue. The issue though, is once you move to the general election and once you move downscale economically, the salience of the issue goes down. And so I can imagine that if you're a working class voter and you have just paid attention to this race and you hear what Abdul's talking about, you hear what's great, not just what he says, because you're not listening to his full speech, but what's breaking through in media coverage or social media conversation, even in some mail pieces, is AIPAC and Israel. And that that, and that these voters who agree with Abdul, but think it is, but care much, but affordability is a much higher topic for them, can believe that in his mind, is priority-wise that AIDS Israel on that basket of issues is higher on his list than affordability. And that hurts you with voters. And it's one of the reasons Democrats, Democrats have suffered with these voters. You know, we saw this in the deciding to win report that Simon Bazelon did last year or whenever that was, because time has no meaning. And what voters think Democrats' top priorities are is often not the economy, even when it actually is. I think there's a pretty easy way to square this circle. And I could see him moving towards this. Yes, yes, 100%. Abdul moving towards this today, which is just people are tired of their money going overseas to be spent on stupid wars. Like Israel's part of this, but like we're, war with Iran right now, that is a fucking disaster that Donald Trump is responsible for. And Mike Rogers is supporting. And Mike Rogers just told Semaphore the other day, oh, when I go around, no one talks about Iran and the war, blah, blah, blah. But by linking affordability concerns to meanwhile, you've got Republicans. And if you put Mike Rogers in the Senate, they're just going to keep sending all your money overseas to fight stupid wars. And to like, you know, when it should be here in Michigan, helping you afford things. Like, I think that's a good message. Yeah, for sure. That was what I meant to bring. That pivot was notable in his remarks. And it's going to be interesting when you get asked how he feels about aid to Ukraine in this situation. Yeah. Yeah, that is true. Well, we're not providing much anymore. So there's, that's right. Unfortunately there. But yeah, no, that is it. Well, and he's also been, because I saw him on MS Now and someone was like, well, you talk about Israel all the time. Well, do you not like, do you not like Egypt or other ethno-nationalist governments? He's like, no, no, I don't. I would not, I would not, I would not give aid to them either. Yeah, he basically said he would give aid. Yeah, he doesn't believe in unconditional aid to any country. Right. Which is a very good and wise and I imagine quite popular position. Yes, right. Okay. We should just talk about Michigan Senate was not the only notable primary last night. Before we go, in Michigan's seventh house district, which is a top target for Dems to flip, the lefty candidate, Will Lawrence, who's the Sunrise Movement co-founder, beat two more moderate Democrats who split the vote. In Michigan's 13th, House District, DSA candidate Donovan McKinney has defeated incumbent Democrat Sheree Thanadar by three points. In Kansas, the more progressive state senator, Cindy Holscher, beat Democratic Governor Laura Kelly's pick to succeed her, state Senator Ethan Corson. But over in Missouri, incumbent House Democrat, Wesley Bell, crushed Cori Bush, who was trying to win her old seat back by 59 to 37. We got a moderate Senate Democratic candidate in Kansas, Adam Hamilton, whose primary victory there moves the race from solid R to likely R. And elsewhere, in Washington, and yeah, I know, it's something. And elsewhere in Washington and Virginia, incumbent, moderate, established Democrats all won their races despite some of them facing challenges from the left. Anything else I missed? And any takes on the rest of the primaries from last night? No, I mean, this continues a trend we've seen with a handful of exceptions here and there of progressive anti-establishment candidates winning in races. You can overstate these things. Lawrence won a three-way race. So it would be interesting what would happen if he had had a one-on-one with either of the two moderates. Maybe he still would have won then, too. But the anti-Lawrence vote was much larger than the Lawrence vote. And the Shree Thanadar race, he is a particularly unpopular Democrat, but still impressive because incumbents don't get knocked off that much. Then you have the Wesley Bell, Cori Bush one, which is an example of this. He was supported heavily by AIPAC, Wesley Bell was. AIPAC supported his victory against Cori Bush last time. There's a lot of baggage from why Cori Bush lost the first time, scandal stuff there that affected it. And I think Bell, apparently, I guess, in the eyes of his constituents, has been an effective legislator in this time. But if you want to, like, what happened last night is, I think, consistent with the theme we've seen all primary season, which is in races with the right candidates and the right situations, progressive anti-establishment candidates have the advantage in the primary against the more traditional candidates you would expect to win. I do think your point about Michigan 7th, where if there had only been one candidate facing William Lawrence instead of two, they very well, he very well could have lost. And I think for, you know, moderate Democrats who are worried about this or worried about, you know, this sort of this progressive wave, like, if you don't want a DSA candidate to win, like, figure out one candidate to take on that person. I mean, this is really hard because, you know, I look at that and I'm like, well, most people could be wrong, but the general belief, this is Michigan 7th is the district that Trump won by one point. It's Alyssa Slotkin's old district. Democrats should win at this time around. Most of the people whose job it is to try to win the House believe pretty strongly that either Bridget Brink or Matt Masden would be favorites in that race. It is a toss-up at best, with Lawrence, whether that's correct or fair, I don't know. But so, in one sense, you're like, well, why can't these people in Washington figure this shit out and get one person on the race? But at the same time, we're like, hey, DSCC, stop endorsing in these primaries. You know, why are you endorsing Haley Stevens and Janet Mills and all these other people and just let the voters decide? But I think there are some lessons here. Like, if, not the people in Washington, but if the folks who really are focused on electing more moderates or more electable or more heterodox Democrats, whatever you call them, who else you want, do have to get their shit together. And I think what happened in Michigan 7 and what happened in Michigan Senate, where most, there was a strong argument that Abdul was less electable than Haley Stevens. That's sort of a moot point right now. But is that there aren't a lot of people in the Democratic Party with the authority and the experience and the trust to tell Democratic primary voters how to think or even to tell candidates which one of them should get out. And you end up in situations like these where the candidate who in a normal election year might not have won will win this year because the establishment doesn't have the credibility to tell voters. If they can say who's more electable, the voters aren't going to believe them. Look, this is a conversation we'll be having for like the next year, two years. So we don't have to do it all now. But yeah, I think it's less, like I don't, I think the ability of some Democratic establishment to like move pieces on a chessboard to get the right people that they want in races is like not the best. Yeah. best strategy, but I do think it argues for compelling candidates who break out from the crowd who are also not like, like they don't have to be DSA candidates, but they can at least have like, there's plenty of, I think, mainstream Democrats in tough races who I would say the left is probably fine with. John Ossoff is an example, right? Like John Ossoff has taken some votes that are, you know, pretty moderate votes or things that left lefties might be upset about, but like people are generally fine with him because he is a compelling candidate. And now we're looking, you know, you look in Wisconsin right now, what's going on, right? Like in the governor's race and they had a Lieutenant governor who had to drop out because of scandal. Mandela Barnes also drops out partially because of scandal, partly because he didn't break through. We got David Crowley, who you're going to be talking to on Thursday show, um, who last minute got Evers endorsement. Now they're trying, it's just like, you, you gotta have, um, you gotta run candidates who can really break through and, and at least say, have a message. And have an agenda that people who would normally vote for some of these DSA progressive candidates would still, um, find appealing. The model here in the example is Josh Turk. Yes. Who was a more moderate candidate believed to be more electable was supported by Schumer world and benefit benefit from $10 million in super backspending for that, but was able to in all the other, you know, Schumer's endorsed in three races. His candidate has lost or dropped out in two of the three Turks. So he's a very compelling candidate who, even though he had establishment support, does not read like an establishment candidate. Yeah. And now obviously he is a very unique bio, very unique profile, but the way for moderates to win is to find candidates who do not appear to be just like establishment totes, right? They have to. Ruben Gallego in Arizona in 2024. This is another example of that, right? Alyssa Falken, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Different profile, but, um, you know, and, but we're also in a different world now where everyone is going to, almost everyone is going to face a primary. And if you think there are a lot of primaries in 2026, wait till 2028. Fun stuff. Okay. Um, when we come back, uh, I talked to Senator Bernie Sanders. Hey, Dan Taberski here. I'm a podcast host, a journalist, and now with my newest project, the author of my, my own manifesto. Well, it's a manifesto about manifestos. My search for inspiration in a world that feels more infuriating, more out of its freaking mind with each passing hour. Manifestos are a call to action, an artful scream. They capture our anger and they try to do something with it. This is my attempt to take the manifesto back from mass shooters and nihilists and return it to its rightful place with the warriors, the visionaries, the regular folks with just the amount of crazy. I compare notes with radicals, secessionists, internet trolls out for a laugh and punk singers screaming their guts out, all trying to turn their anger into the world they want to see. Listen to Manifesto wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Manifesto early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. This is Troy Millings from Earn Your Leisure. If you run a small business, you know how important it is to stay on top of your numbers. That's why I want to tell you about Xero. That's X-E-R-O. Xero is a platform built for small business owners that brings accounting, payments, payroll, and analytics together in one place. You can access reports, visual dashboards, forecasts, and AI insights to help you better understand your cash flow and make informed decisions about your business. Senator Sanders, welcome back to Pod Save America. Great to be with you. I saw that you described Abdul's primary win as the most extraordinary victory you can think of in modern American politics. What makes you think that? I'll tell you why. And you tell me what you think. Here is a guy who took on the entire Democratic establishment in Michigan. Okay. Took on the entire national Democratic establishment. Okay. And then took on $70 million. $70 million of super PAC and outside funding, about $30 million of it coming from APAC. Now, help me out here. You know something about these things. Yeah. Have you ever heard of a candidate in a major race getting outspent 9-1, taking on the entire establishment, and winning? No. Not in a primary like that. Now he's got to win the general, though. Then it would really be extraordinary. All right. But hold on. I'm saying. You asked me. I cannot recall somebody having done that. So it was an extraordinary victory. And in addition, in Michigan last night, we won two congressional races. As you know, Donovan McKinney beat an incumbent in Detroit, will be the next congressman. Will Lawrence won in Lansing. A strong victory. I think he stands a good chance to win in November as well. Yeah. It ended up being a really close race. Abdul won by about a point. What does the close finish tell you about where Democratic voters are right now? Especially, you know, the 720,000 or so who voted for Haley Stevens? Well, John, it certainly was a close race. I was up to 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock in the morning. So if I fall asleep, don't take it personal. But you have to understand that $70 million was spent against this guy. So I want to rephrase the question and say if it was a fair fight financially and there was no spending difference, how many points would he have won? What, by 10, 20 points? Maybe. I don't know. But all in all, I think it was an extraordinary victory. I think the message right now, and I think Haley Stevens was very gracious in a concession speech. And she was exactly right. We understand that we have the most dangerous president in the modern history, not the modern, in the history of the United States. And we have got to elect Democrats, Democratic control of the Senate and the House. And we've all got to work together to make that happen. And I think I would suspect. I think I would suspect that the overwhelming majority of the people who voted for Haley Stevens understand that. So looking at the map, Abdul dominated in college towns, highly educated areas. He didn't do as well in sort of the working class city and blue collar suburbs. And this has been a pattern with more progressive candidates and Democratic primaries with, I think, your presidential races being the notable exception that I can think of. Why do you think more economically populous candidates aren't doing? As well with working class voters than more moderate establishment candidates. Well, I think, and again, let's remember that what last night was a pattern is consistent with what we have seen all over this country, by the way, in the last year from Mamdani's victory in New York City to Melatz Kiros' victory in Colorado and a lot in between. Progressives are winning, John. And we're winning for a lot of reasons. We're often winning, as was the case last night, with a huge turnout. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that was a record-breaking turnout in Michigan Democratic primaries? Yes, yeah, it was. That didn't happen by accident. It happened because, among other things, Abdul was able to bring out a lot of young people who previously did not get involved in the political process. And a lot of people have kind of given up on politics. But I have absolute confidence. That Abdul's message of economic justice, of demanding the billionaires pay their fair share of taxes. And I'll tell you something else. This guy's a doctor. And I desperately need him in the U.S. Senate to help me and others move toward a Medicare-for-all single-payer program. I think it's going to resonate all over Michigan, whether you're Democrat, Republican, or independent. Do you think it's harder to reach working class voters with that message? Do you think that they just. You know, people are busy and they're not paying as close attention to politics. Like, what do you. How do you think about that? And you got, you know, you got the Internet phenomenon and algorithms where people see what they want to see and what they have seen yesterday. So it's hard to break through that. But what has excited me about Abdul's campaign, and again, Manani did it in New York, others have done it, is he has put thousands and thousands of people out on the street. And one of the differences, John, between our campaigns and establishment Democratic campaigns, they always have more money than we do. They hire great consultants. They do good 30-second ads. We put people out on the street knocking on doors. And I think in Abdul's case in Michigan, we're going to have to have thousands and thousands of people knocking on doors, explaining to Republicans, do you really think it's a good idea? Do you have tax breaks to billionaires and cut back on health care and education, et cetera, et cetera? There's an enormous amount of work to be done. It's going to be done in a grassroots way. I think we win. So as you look to the fall, what is, you know, Abdul's probably going to face even more money than he did in the primary. It's obviously a tougher electorate. What's one thing he has to do and his campaign has to do that they haven't done yet? I think we still have more work to be done within the African-American community, maybe the women's community. But there are great leaders in the state of Michigan and all over this country who, I think, help us make that happen. So you you've endorsed a lot of progressive candidates like Abdul the cycle. You mentioned a few others who won last night. There are also a lot of progressive candidates, DSA candidates running who you haven't endorsed. How do you decide which progressive candidates get your endorsement and which don't? Well, you know, we're not, you know, some kind of huge machine here. So we have to be kind of have to pick and choose. One of the things that people don't know is that we have also endorsed dozens and dozens and dozens of what we call down ballot candidates. People are running for school boards, city council, state legislature, mayor in small towns. And that, in a sense, becomes, if you like, the farm club, the future leaders of America, some great people in legislature right now that we've helped get elected. And we have trained, by the way. We have programs. They'd say, hey, you want to run for office? This is how you send out a press release. This is how you do social media, et cetera, et cetera. But we have, you know, limited, limited resources. So what we do is, hey, what do you stand for? What do you stand for? If you are a moderate liberal type Democrat, that's great. There are other people who support you. That's not us. Do you support Medicare for all, which is more or less for us, I think. If you would ask me if there's one litmus test, probably Medicare for all would be, do you support a tax on billionaires? Are you prepared to take on the oligarchs? What is your view about the extremist government in Israel? So you need that information. But that's not enough. Then you have to say, look, you can, and I have seen this, I've experienced this. People have really, they're really smart. They have great answers to everything. They can't run a campaign. You know, it's not easy putting together a campaign. And Abdul did it, by the way. Not everybody can do it. So you've got to say, all right, what's the nature of your campaign? How many volunteers do you have? How many people do you have? How many years do you have? Well, we don't have any. You're raising any money? No, we're not. Okay, well, that's nice. Have a nice day. You're a great guy, but we're not going to support you. So those are some of the things that we look at. I noticed you haven't yet endorsed in the Wisconsin governor's race. What's your thinking there? And might you endorse or? I don't think so. I met a friend, Francesca, a couple of years ago. I was in Wisconsin. And she seems very, very nice. But again, this is a race I just am not that familiar with. Not involved in many governor's races. And we did one in Maine with Troy Jackson. You know, obviously, my major concern right now is seeing that we have a Senate and a House that is going to stand up to Trump. That's really where my focus is. So as of now, we have not been involved in that race. So your brand of progressive politics has always been focused on the material needs of working class people. And I would say that to the extent that you've broken from Democratic Party policy, it's usually around the idea that you're going to stand up to Trump. And I think that's around economic issues, health care, etc. There are some DSA candidates today, you know, including some who've won their primaries this cycle, who've also talked about abolishing prisons, defunding or even abolishing the police, abolishing borders. You've never been for any of that. Are you worried that taking those positions, which are unpopular with most voters and even most Democrats, sort of hurt the movement that you've worked really hard to build? Well, you know, look, people have different views and what you know, as well as I do, that the right wing, that's their job, right? They will take what one person said and put, you know, $80 billion of TV ads on it and make it claim every Democrat supports that. I have no serious person that I know who is running for office believes in, quote unquote, defunding the police. I was a mayor for eight years. I worked very closely with cops. They have a very difficult job. Do we need police reform? Do we need to get rid of racism within police departments? Absolutely. Are there jobs? Are there jobs? Are there jobs? Are there jobs that other people can be doing in terms of mental health, drug addiction that now falls on a cop's shoulders? Yeah, I think we should look at that. But nobody I know, you know, believes in defunding the police in terms of doing away with prisons. I hope the day comes. I hope the day comes when we don't leave the world and the number of people who are incarcerated. That speaks very poorly of our society. Yeah. But does that mean that there should not be dangerous people who should be behind bars? Of course, everybody, most of us believe in comprehensive immigration reform, not opening up all the borders. But a lot of this stuff, as you well know, is what the right wing plays on and multiplies on Fox, you know, 10 times a day and through their ads. But most of the serious candidates that I know and support do not support those things. You have you made a really compelling case that the party Democratic Party can't just be anti-immigrant. You can't just be anti-immigrant. You can't just be anti-Trump. We have to be for something. On the other hand, you never want to promise voters things that you can't actually get done. And I think about this just in terms of the next two years in this cycle. Right. So a bunch of Democrats wouldn't say everything goes well. We take Congress. Trump's still president for two years. What do you think Democratic candidates running today can realistically promise voters in terms of a Democratic Congress the next two years? Tom, I would look at. That's a good question that you've raised. I would look at it a little bit differently. OK. I would not start off by saying Donald Trump is president. You know, he probably veto any serious and good piece of legislation. Therefore, we can't bring it up. That's not the way I look at it. All right. I look at it from the position of and let me be very clear. You may agree with me. You may not. I think the system is horrifically broken in many ways. We're on a Titanic right now. Every place you look, whether it's health care, whether it's transportation, whether it's education, whether it's a corrupt campaign finance system, whether it is oligarchy and massive income and wealth inequality, whether it is climate change. I mean, I can go on and on. It's scary stuff. Yeah. I mean, we're living in really crazy times. And then on top of that, you've got Donald Trump as president who does everything, you know, does the wrong things every every single day. So I think the first thing you do, John, and what my politics is about. I think the first thing you do, John, and what my politics is about, is to be honest with people. You say, I don't stop. What can you do? What are the problems facing? Are you all right? You're worried that your kid can't afford to go to college. We're the richest country on Earth. What should we do? Did God determine that public education ends in the 12th grade? Can we make public colleges and universities tuition free? Do you think that zero four is important for a kid's development? Of course you do. Should we have universal and free child care so that all families can enjoy? Yeah, you can. Oh, Bernie, that's a great idea. How are you going to pay for it? Well, OK, that's another issue. Maybe we demand that large corporations and the wealthiest people stop paying their fair share of taxes. Maybe we don't spend one point one trillion on the military. But this is what I believe, John. And it really is at the heart of my politics. You've got to deal with where people are at. They are hurting. They are giving up on democracy in many cases because they don't see government do anything for them. So what my strategy would be to answer your question is if I had the power and I have some power, I will say to the Democrats, you gain control of the House, you gain control of the Senate. Tell you what you're going to do. In the first two, three, four months, you're going to pass Medicare for all. And if Mr. Trump wants to veto it, let him. And we are going to explain to the American people why he vetoed it. And we're going to lower prescription drug costs to the price that other countries around the world are paying. He's going to veto that. Fine. We're going to raise the minimum wage. We're going to raise taxes on billionaires. Let Mr. Trump say no. And when he says no, we have transformed politics because the next time around, we'll win a landslide victory. That's my view of politics. Well, looking ahead to 2028, I mean, you've been so outspoken on AI and it's clearly going to be a presidential race. What do you hope to hear from Democratic candidates and the Democratic Party in terms of how we handle artificial intelligence? John, there are easy answers and there are hard ones. And I got to tell you, of all of the issues out there, this one, you know, how, you know, why you can't sleep at night. This is one of them. Now, maybe I'm crazy and it may well be. Look, I yeah, first of all, we started with the assumption is nobody knows what's going to happen. Right. Right. You don't. I don't. Nobody does. You know, Elon Musk doesn't know. Nobody knows. Here is my nightmare. This is what I worry about. You're looking what I think we can agree on as the most transformational technology in the history of humanity. OK, it's going to make the industrial revolution seem like a piece of cake. This stuff is moving quickly in every aspect of our society. How many millions of jobs will be lost? I don't know. What happens to the workers? You're a 50 year old truck driver and now you've got a driverless vehicle taking your job. What happens to you? You're a kid. Graduating college. There's no entry level job. What happens to you? You're a lawyer. You don't firm no longer need you. What happens to you? So economically, I worry about it. I worry about it also. And I say all these things. And the reason I am fighting these fights is I don't have all the answers, but somebody got to start this discussion and talk about it. All right. Democracy. All right. Tomorrow, there will probably be some kind of deep fake of me on your program saying, how much I love Donald Trump. What a great job he is, right? Yeah, right. All right. So has that happened to you? Not yet. I'm waiting for it. Yeah, it'll happen. All right. So you're at a moment where people look at the Internet. We don't know truth from fiction, right? You really don't. You've seen those deep fakes, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. All right. So if a day before the elections, and you saw what happened to this guy Thomas Massey, where it was alleged they had a video of him walking into a hotel room with two young congresswomen, right? Total lie. Did older people in Kentucky believe it? Some did. All right. How do you deal with that and protect democracy? How and what worries me very much, reading scores for our kids is in decline. You know that? Writing capabilities, cognitive capabilities. Kids are addicted to screens. How do you deal? How do you deal with that? Recently, we've seen instances of AI escaping human control. I talked to a Nobel Prize winner who thinks that as AI becomes smarter than human beings, we could face an existential threat. All right. These are huge issues. We need to have a, we need to slow it down. That's the first thing we need to do. Mr. Musk cannot run the world and his friends. So that's what I worry about. Same. It's one of the things that keeps me up at night for sure. And especially. Having two, two young boys who are going through the education system. You want to make sure they are trained for actual jobs that are going to exist out there and not just looking at their screens. Senator Sanders, thank you as always for joining Pod Save America. I really appreciate the time. Well, thank you, John. Keep up the great work. Thanks. You too. Take care. That's our show for today. Thanks to Bernie for coming on. And Dan and I will be back with a new show in your feet on Friday. Bye, everyone. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts, and Farrah Safari with Reed Cherlin, Elijah Cohn, and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Hefcote, Jordan Cantor, Charlotte Landis, Kiril Pellaviv, David Tolles, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Sengel. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. For more information, visit www.podsaveamerica.com.