Bonnie Hvillum on biomaterials and 'redefining wood'.

[Music] Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Material Matters with Grant Gibson. The show has been running for over six years now, however for listeners who might be new to all this. The idea is, I speak to a designer, maker, artist or architect about a material or technique with which they're intrinsically linked and discover how it changed their lives and careers. Today I'm talking to Bonnie Villam. Bonnie is a Danish designer and founder of Natural Materials Studio, which, as the name suggests, makes its own materials using natural resources and various waste streams. Working at the meeting point between material science, art and design, the studio creates products, installations, exhibitions and research projects, working for clients such as Adidas, Calvin Klein, Noma, Denizen, Copenhagen Contemporary and the Danish Architecture Centre. Bonnie will also be part of Material Matters London, which takes place from the 17th to 20th of September at Space House, so kind of imminently, with her education platform the material way, which we're going to talk about in a moment. Bonnie, thank you very much for doing this. How are you? I'm good. Oh, good. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I don't know how to start this conversation because I've been a little bit. We've had things going on, right? You're on maternity leave. This is, this is where we're heading. You've not been to this together for a long time. Yeah, I come, you know, and I get an overview of your things, but there are some great people that are running things on behalf of me, so that's really nice. And how is motherhood? This is number three, I think? Yes, yes. This is the last one. How's it going? No, it's really good. I mean, it gets better, you know, every time you get more kind of into it and really intuitive. No, she's really lovely and she's, she's really easy and she just gets along with things and she's already like a good extra person down in the studio, so that's, it's good. Yeah. Good. Good. We have a tradition on this podcast of asking guests to describe their studios. Now, obviously, as you've alluded to, you've been popping in, but you've not been there for a while. Am I right in thinking you live on a farm? You have chickens and things. Yeah, we live on a little farm south of Copenhagen, but still like a good, just about biking distance to the studio and the city. This is a really good compromise, really. And so, yeah, we have a kitchen garden and we have chickens and we have horses next door. And yeah, and then we have the studio in the city. Well, let's get into our studios, probably quite different. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like in the city, you saw it in winter. It's like in a residential kind of area, actually, but I was really lucky to find it many years ago. It's like a bit of a high basement, it's a bit of a high ceilings. We got good light, so we can test things and we can be messy. These places are a little bit rare to find, actually, nowadays, because we're working with a lot of water, so we can be wet casting and we can just be messy on the floor. And it's a good combination. In a way, I don't feel like we require that much. We have so many kind of needs when we do our work. At the same time, it's a bit of a funny combination, our studio of a laboratory, a telly, kitchen, the sand studio. So it's a really mix of things. We're really tapping into many different ways of working. So one of the reasons I was keen to get you onto the podcast is this educational platform, the material way that you've co-founded with curator Rinda Tridade, which will be at Material Matters London. But what will you be showing? Well, we'll be showing the students or participants this year's group that we've had on the learning platform. We'll be showing that their work at the Material Matters. So maybe just a few words around the material way. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Tell me a little bit more about it. I mean, why did you decide to start it in the first instance? I think that's a really good question, actually. I believe in learning and collaboration. And I think that the people that we get on board are the same mentality in learning from each other and facilitating this community that we are growing with this platform. And it's like a global community. And we really try to encourage this shared learning environment where we can learn from each other. But then all the participants are working with materials that they find locally, but they are based. So people tap in from all over the world and then we meet online and then share the learning and the developments of these materials that they are creating and material research in different ways. And then I try to put together an inspirational program for these participants with internal teachers and external lectures. And we really try to create this dynamic learning environment, but they are meeting online and then having these developments going on throughout the week and then helping each other to grow and develop the materials and understanding the concepts around the materials and from that on try to build a project. And that's what we will be showing at the material matters. It's the kind of the final projects that they have created and works. How did you and Rita meet in the first place? Because I'm writing, thinking, she's from Lisbon? Yeah. Yeah. So how did you meet? We met in Copenhagen, see, she worked at that time for Copenhagen-based company. And so we met through shared people and founded the platform and it was doing COVID. In the start, we didn't have the platform, the name, material way, but we just ran it as a collaboration, these programs. And then we discovered that we could expand, or we needed to expand on the program because there was so much learning we wanted to, you know, and the students, when we left them, it felt like just like a platform that could really grow in many ways. So in the start, we ran courses several times during the year, and showed the courses. And then we really discovered, okay, let's focus on a year program where we have a lot of good time to go in depth with each project and materials and really get the materials developed and worked through and also try to encourage the final project or like a bit of a direction for the project so that you can really understand where the whole kind of research project. And so that's kind of why it's finished soon in London and then we start a new course. How many students in a cohort? Around 30, we have the capacity for around 30. When they're using local materials, they come from all over the world these people. What kind of materials have they used? Yeah, I mean, the tap into like their local habitat really, and no matter if they live in the jungle, or they live in the desert, or they live in the city, like the tap into like just what they can find. I think that's what we really encourage. And of course, we encourage natural materials, but also sometimes people tap into more post-production waste and materials, which is also something we discuss and learn about how to understand these production systems. And we really try to give a broad understanding of materials, waste materials, and natural materials, and then give a broad understanding of polymers and the technicality of creating materials. And then from that on, just try and mentor and encourage and grow the projects with them. And then again, foster this community where we help each other, so they can help each other also along the way. But all sorts of materials really like from rare kind of soils to plants and historical materials, cultural materials, all sorts really. That's why you can come and discover. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing the results myself. So when you're not doing that, you're running the Natural Material Studio, which you launched in 2019, which is actually the this podcast launched as well. So there you go, 2019, very good year for materials. How big is it now, days? How many people do you employ? We fall in the studio now with various skills. Again, as I mentioned in the start of the studio kind of setup is a quite hybrid place that's actually a lot of different combat classes and skills and ways of working. So people come with various backgrounds and then obviously we have our different roles in the studios. Can you define exactly what the studio does? Because what you do is quite unusual, I think. Yeah. Well, I don't know, unusual. But at least we're trying to set like a bit of a new agenda maybe. So unusual, I don't know. But I think what we do in the studio is on a more like visionary kind of state, maybe is that we try to change our understanding of materials and maybe try to push the boundaries of what we can do with materials. I think that's maybe the core essence of it. I think I've always been really curious about our as humans into action with materials and with the world in general. And so that's the starting point for when we for all the projects, all the research and all the works that we create and installations. It's quite human centered but also obviously the emphasis and starting point of nature. I think that's kind of why it all starts. And then as I mentioned before about with our students, I think it's kind of it's the same way we work in the studio where we really try to enhance and encourage the narrative that the materials withhold and let that drive the protects or hold the narrative of the concept or whatever project we're working on, but where the materials are coming from has a lot of story to tell. And I have this feeling that it becomes like this fluid state where we bring a lot of history and knowledge from these materials and then we create these like new types of materials. So in a way we kind of bonding history with future in like a quiet maybe a little bit poetic way in the present state. That's at least what we're trying to do. And then we really try to work with this material driven design with a methodology where we understand the materials and we work with the technicalities of the materials and the aesthetics and then the sign from that starting point where I see a tendency where we sit at a drawing table and draw a lot of things up and then we apply materials afterwards. Yeah, okay. So you're materially led in other words? Exactly. So we're turning it upside down. Yeah, yeah. You work with, well, you've worked on numerous projects with brands like Adidas, Calvin Klein, the brilliant restaurant Noma. As we said in the entry, we've done installations in Copenhagen contemporary in the Danish architecture center. What was it difficult to get that initial foothold to get going to persuade people to what you were doing had value? I think it was difficult to keep going. As a keep going even at the times where I was not getting that like as much response or people who didn't understand quite what I was doing, but I think maybe my advantage has been that I've always been quite curious about scale and how can make it bigger or how can we scale this up. So I think quite quickly I came from moving from research and then moving it into applied work or using it for something. It wasn't enough for me to just sit and develop and research, which I see other people doing and they've done fantastic because what they have masters is to really grow in a more industrial way, maybe a commercial scale with their materials or technological way. I don't know, but it's just not my energy or pace, I think, and because I've always been really curious of creating these experiences with people or for people, the interaction with people and spaces and sites and it's always been my agenda really to bring it out. And maybe that's been the advantage really that's been created these experiences that people can understand and connect with. Yeah, was there a breakthrough moment, Bonnie, where you after setting the studio up, you thought, yes, I can make this work. People are going to understand what it is I'm doing. Yeah, I think, I mean, if you've had numerous kind of good projects where it's been like, you know, I should say like that feeling where, okay, this is really going to work. But I think first time where we showed at least our textiles in a more commercial setting, we did an installation with Frammer in Copenhagen back in, I don't know, 21 maybe. And I think that was the first time where we moved, like, stepped into a more commercial sphere and a lot of architects kind of understood that these materials and our work could function not just as a research, but it actually can work out in the real world. And I think just then, critics leads to the next project and then, yeah, that's kind of how it went. This probably sounds like a really ridiculous question, but we have a mixed audience, so I'm going to ask it anyway. How easy is it to find your ingredients for the materials you create? How do you feel about the process? The whole basis of our work is based on some different compositions depending on the projects, but we work in mainly with these, or we are only working with natural polymers that can be sourced from plants or from animal waste. And these kind of like waste flows that we try to tap into. I think we could, if we wanted to and we had the space to do it, we could like kind of refine it all and process it all from the very start. And then we can do it all from the very start. And then we source everything as we can from Denmark, at least like our fibers and particles and pigments and everything we can source. And then we have some good suppliers in Northern Europe that we work with for larger amounts of polymers and so on. So we set it up some good suppliers systems in that sense. So we try to stay as local as possible really. And can we talk about process? How actually do you make your materials? I'm guessing having been in your studio. It felt like there was quite a lot of craft and hand work involved in what you do. Yeah. So again, the studio is quite mobile. So we can move things a little bit away and put it things out. But basically we have a casting process. So we casting the textiles that we make. And which we are working most with at the moment our biotextiles. We casting them in hand on the floor. And then it has like drying time three, four days. And then we can then peel the textiles off and then they're kind of dry and set. So it's actually really simple. It sounds simple, but then there's a lot of technicalities in the scale that we work with and their amount that we can work with. So we can make around 100 square meters a week. I think people have the understanding that it takes long time to make these natural materials. And then when they realize how fast we can work. Now it's really exciting because we can put some tempo on things. And because we have everything in-house and everything, you know, it's minutes from in-house, we can really push the button really fast and get things in motion. So I feel like the critics that we've been working on has quite often been with short, practical spend really. And I really enjoy that because we can create this momentum really in the studio and we can manage the time as well. And we don't have to outsource things. We can keep it within our own studio. Yeah, yeah. But if we took, say, white utopia, which is a project you did for three days of design last year, where you made an entire interior from the curtains to the sofa out of the same protein-based bioplastic called Procell, how did you do that? I don't know how we did that project. Well, it wasn't extraordinary thing. It was easily my favorite thing at three days of design. Okay, cool. So what is Procell exactly and how do you make it? Is this combination really of this polymer and then a natural softener that we have been testing and researching for a long time. And then we use water and heat and that's the kind of the basis we use chalk as well. So it's a kind of a combination of simple raw materials that have just found a way to combine in this scale capacity. And then we just discovered a lot of ways we can take it. It's like, okay, if we tune down on the softener, then it behaves like this, if we tune up on the softener, then it behaves like this. What happens when we mechanically foam the material will hold air and like all these things. So I mean, I think white utopia was just like a culmination of all this like years of research that we've been carrying out in the studio and really showing these like kind of a hypothesis of how we could live and work and have a whole basically a whole house made of these materials. I think it was really fun to put it out there because I think people got really surprised. I know you saw it also. I mean, some of the objects were not like perfect. You know, the dining table were like really really wonky kind of style. It was a big one key. But it was really funny because for me, it's really showed like a parallel universe that at least I believe more in than the way that we are currently producing and creating because basically everything that was in that installation could be put it down in a massive melting pot and then it could just be recreated like there was no structure. You know, everything was made out of this, these like raw components is that can be recasted and reshaped into another project. So imagine if you put it all this into like a container say or like massive melting pot and then just like it is like challenging chocolate fact to be the way it looks. What you're saying is you can melt your entire interior and recast it as something. Yeah, you could take that whole installation which was like a remiss of a house and remake it again and somewhere else. That's kind of interesting. It dovetails with a quote that I read of yours in DZN about that project where you said that you were basically investigating fluidity. That's presumably what you mean that the fact that these pieces don't need to be set in the form that they are permanently you can do whatever you like with them subsequently. Yeah, I really like that. I really like the word fluidity and I really like the philosophy around how rounded it's based on the conversation I've had with various people including fantastic and to politics called Tim Engel who is based in Abidine. We had him as a guest lecturer at the Material Way Act last year and as a research for that and involvement of that. Then we had some really fascinating conversations and you really got me understanding this philosophy of fluidity and really starting to understand our world more fluid because everything is in motion. and it makes a lot of sounds really basic isn't it? and even humans we know we're going ground and you know everything is encircled is you know we're not creating the world like that at the moment and things are created quite linear and has a bit of an ending point so I think suddenly I realized how fluid my practice and processes and materials actually were and I think that's what really made me wanted to make that point hope you're enjoying the show this is to remind you that material matters London is almost here in fact by the time you listen to this it may well be happening it runs from the 17th to the 20th of september at space house which is on the outskirts of coven garden so it's super super central we have a polythera of amazing exhibitors joining us this year ranging from major brands and organizations such as angle poise a heck europe and 3m manufacturers like tarquette, impactor custick and low carbon industrial and companies you might not know so much about including Chinese fashion labels zookzag 22 and filet materials from ty one there are features from the likes of prism good the wood awards and the only natural design competition and of course designers and makers who are confounding our expectations when it comes to materials it's going to be great and it's free for architects and designers but you must register from all details go to our website material matters dot design and while i have you it's important to point out that we've also just opened a virtual bookstore it contains a slew of carefully curated titles many from authors who featured on the podcast writers to look out for include Glen abemson, zandra roads, nudgell coats, Alice Robinson, Edmund Duval, robbing Given and Patrick Grant to name just a few you can find it on our websites and i'll put a link in the blurb that comes with this episode happy shopping over the years you've added other things to prosel in your practice beer waste brick dust spring to mind why those particular waste streams and how did they affect the finished result yeah i think that's what's really fun about this base i think i would call it like this you know base material that we have created that we can incorporate things and particles and fibers from other waste streams and then it changes the whole performance of the materials and the static of the materials and then again we stand with a new material so it takes all these branches really every time we do these projects for me it's the again like the technicality and the statics because they bring the static to the material as well like so the project as you say we spent grains from the sprue we called oven we did an installation or we did this we collaborated with the bar they had they had in the airport and made these like panels but they kind of created the whole aesthetic and the whole expression of the materials it was to spend grains that so i think that's what's really fun and then for me it's the narrative that these materials hold so for example we worked as you say with crust demolition bricks and suddenly we started conceptualizing on okay wait a minute now we created a flexible flexible brick in a way which is like really you know it's the complete opposite of what we when we think about a brick it's like a solid element that like we build you know straight or we can build like curves but it's a very solid like straight brick and suddenly we we're making these symmetric and solution flexible soft textiles it's like a complete opposite so it's really playing with these kind of contrasts and perceptions that we have of materials and all that just try to push the boundaries really i think that's the essence really of why we incorporate all these different materials when you talk about aesthetics fundamentally what it seems it seems to be you can't draw the pieces that you create you know not drawing before it's what comes out from the material yeah yeah yeah i don't i'm not i'm a really bad really i don't draw because yeah because i mean yeah i have people now in the studio that understand how to draw but it's not how it started it started in a very tactile and a really hands-on way because it's the way that we kind of learned it was through the hands and just like iterations of trial and ever really the other project i'm interested in and saw while i was out in Copenhagen well at the beginning of this year is the work you've been doing with the flooring company dinison and the architect kim lentjo with sawdust you created four different biomaterials out the dust so how did you go about doing that and and what did you do yeah so i think with with we call it now the practically called the protex smooth now because smooth means sort of yes i sorry i had no idea how to pronounce it no i know it's so funny so basically what we did we started in yeah what three four years ago now of course i came with a lot of material understanding and know listen same did kim and kim is a has an architect background but what we did was that we took all like we started from from scratch again and then what we wanted was to work only with polymers bio polymers that comes from trees themselves so the tree source so everything was like from trees and that's what the kind of the the constraint that we set so we worked a lot with like cellulose and the lessons from trees and the lignin from tree and these types of polymers that can actually be extracted from trees and then obviously with the sawdust and different sizes of sawdust to pass the small particles the latter fibers and it was like one big open exploration really and then over the years we've kind of pushed it further and further and further and actually we're having an installation i'm talking now nine for september but this coming week in Oslo with new objects again in denizen showroom up in Oslo so we're trying to push all the time we have this kind of phases that we work on and we set it up in in installation new installation in spring at denys architect center at the them they had a lot group exhibition called redefining beauty and we did a installation for there as well but again we we tried new materials new combinations new polymers again from within tree so we we're connecting with a lot of tree enthusiasts and tree experts and just like learning yeah i mean the chemist in the region and i'm danie's it's a little becomes really nerdy because there's all these people of them are like north and they come down to denmark and they're really excited because we like we want to do something with these like waste streams so it's it's fun in many ways what objects did you actually create bunny or have you created so last year we did an installation with denizen where we we worked in their showroom we created these like different types of walls with the materials different types of materials as you said these four types we've time assumed in zoom in on but from from bored material to more like a random material these more like semi-translucent materials and textile materials so again just really trying to push you know other ways that we can work with wood is not just doesn't have to be like this plank but we can also work with it in other ways again redefining wood i think that's what we probably would call the project yeah so it's a non-goned research really that we just keep pushing the scale again and the possibilities for the with wood and do you know how these materials will age there's so in you that presumably that must be difficult to predict yeah i mean we've actually done now back again to my studio materials we don't know that much in with the wood materials but with our studio materials we did actually test with the National History Museum in here in Copenhagen they have a fascinating laboratory and we did some we ran some tests to see how the materials actually change over time because i was really curious as you say how do they look like in 30 years and so they can actually do this like speed it up processes where we can see how the materials behave over time and they do a lot of research in in conventional plastic and polyethylene foam back elite and some of these like all plastic materials and so we were comparing it to that and some of the textiles were like kind of behaving in quite similar way as like conventional plastic that we have actually like obviously plastic last a lot longer but it also when it gets exposed from the sun it also starts breaking down so there was like these similarities and then also differences in terms of of breakdown polyethylene foam again that you know as soon as it's exposed to UV then it starts like really crumbling so we learned a lot really and we learned how we could strengthen the materials better and how we could prolong their life but again the whole point is also not to create linear materials that cannot be broken down so i think this is kind of the core challenge that we always face with or we face it quite often with people and clients is that you know we want materials that are sustainable and circular but they also need to last forever and it's like you can't you can't really have both you know but i think at least what we we try to to work with is this is the circularity and the possibility of being able to recast so say the textiles needs to be recasted you know whenever you you know say we want to recast them in ten years time we can recast them and then we can reshape them into another form another object so it's like in that sense we can offer the system and also i think the repair system is well because if anything breaks it can just be recasted. So nothing goes to landfill. People like you always get asked by people like me about the question of scale. The materials you create have this strong craft element as we've discussed. I mean, could they be made at an industrial scale? And would you want them to be made industrially? Yeah, I think it's a good question. I feel like it's often part of these discussions as well. What I really like is that I think it actually raises questions to the question because it's like these expectations that we have. This is how we know that things have been produced at the moment on this very industrial scale. But really, I believe in that we can also produce in other ways. We see the same in farming at the moment. We have these massive farms that produce a lot. But then we actually have this push for small farms, small individual farms, like more locally, let's apply more locally. And it just encourages and it's a lot more healthy for the soil to produce on that way. So I see the same a little bit here. And then maybe I see what is interesting instead of like setting up this massive production plant. And then supply out in the world and export around. And I rather want to actually set up like satellites around the world and then produce locally. But bit and knowledge that we have generated so that becomes global. I think I believe more in that really than setting up this massive plant and then just exporting. Sure, sure. Thinking globally acting locally. Yeah, I think so really. And also it's really fun because then again, we can work with the local materials and we can work with the local people. It makes a lot more sense, I think, to work in that way. How did you discover that you wanted to work with materials in the first instance, Bonnie? Because you have this kind of fascinating educational background. Fascinating. Well, it is. It's really interesting. Diplomatic with me. Well, I think I'm writing saying that you studied Nordic literature and art for your BA before doing interaction design as an MA in Ahus. So when did you decide you wanted to be a designer? Were you writing an essay about Nordic literature and thought no this isn't for me anymore? I think I got the sort of like literature by the end of that education. I think I really needed to have things in my hand really, you know, and create things. And in between I went to this entrepreneurial school called the Chaos Pilots. And they practiced really systemic thinking and circular thinking, just like a little bit more out there of like innovative kind of people. So I really got into this like mindset of, okay, how can we think differently around production and people and organizations? Also I started then working a lot with organizations and as a consultant of how can we be more sustainable within organizations? So that's actually how I started my career and then discovered that I still needed to have things in my hand and create the difference that I believed and created chains, you know, instead of trying to encourage other people to do the difference, then I think I realized I had to do it myself. We wanted to make a change in this world. And so that was the starting point of the studio. Right. So in other words, when you were doing your interaction MA, were you messing about with materials then? Yeah. It came later. Are you were then? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like a big focus really for the research and the for the whole kind of, yeah, the research center that I was connected to as well. Obviously, interaction design can also be allowed about digital interaction and technology and these things. But we also had a strong emphasis on materials actually and the human connection that we have for interaction with the world. You know, every time we touch an interface, for example, you know, we're touching materials so that the whole area of the materials and the human interaction with the world was what I was fascinated about really and became really naughty about. And then I let it all the guys do all the coding and all the digital stuff. We always making things as a child. Did you come from a very creative household? That's a funny question. Yes and no, I think, yeah, I mean, I was, I think I had a fascination with textiles actually. I was like doing a lot of my grandma. She was like a sewer. They were doing like gloves and like starting gloves. Like, you know, third jackets and stuff that had like a company doing that. And so we would, we were suing a lot with a lot of textiles. I think when I was young. But I think the reason maybe I am, as I am, I think I've been grown up in the family where it wasn't that strict in that sense that there was not really any kind of norms of how we should do things in a certain way. When we have this like, this is not how we do things because, you know, this is how the world runs. But there was nobody that really told me how the world runs, I think. So I think I've just been kind of been let it free in that sense. I think up in the head of, you know, we can imagine the world differently and we can think of the world differently. And then obviously when you grow older and you start becoming adult and you're like realizing, okay, you know, I think it's like questioning like, why does the world have to run like this when we could do it other ways? And I think that's the engine really of the studio. So what would you like at school? Did you enjoy school? I think it was questioning things a lot. I think I was really annoying student really. I think I was asking a lot of questions. I think it was my way of keeping entertained or keeping, you know, awake, I think to keep questioning. But I don't know. I've always had that drive to question things and ask like put things upside down and be like, what if we did it this way or that kind of motivation for improvement? I think all the time, like improving and optimizing, I think, without sounding too like Agile consultants. When you won an award from DZ, the judges described your work as uncompromising. Is that how you view it? I think I like that. I try to, yeah, not be go uncompromised. I mean, obviously there's always like some compromises you have to go on. I like that phrase really. That was also last year, like a person that said like, Renaissance woman. I really like that phrase as well, because it's quite fun. I was like looking up and be like, what does the actually mean by this? But it's really like this hybrid kind of person that really want to change the world in a way. And I feel like I feel quite good in that kind of title, not being too like grand and everything. We know, we really small. So we just do it in a small scale. I think we're doing it quite, we're not like, you know, I'm not like a massive company that goes out and do like massive change, you know, every day. It's a really, it's fantastic, you know, they're doing great work. I think we're doing it in a little bit like more activism way. So like these small projects, I really want to try and push the agenda and push the questioning really in a more activist way than massive production way. I think maybe that's my what I can contribute with in this world. That's quite interesting. I guess at least two questions. One of which is, if your work is uncompromising, do you see yourself as uncompromising as well? Maybe they find uncompromising then. Well, I guess it takes a path and is less than willing to deviate. Yeah, I think I have strong ambitions really. I think we always try to push it as far as well. We could push it maybe even further, you know. But I think we have as the same time I have to say quite organic way of operating. So I'm not like going to push it like Matt, you know, like now we just need to go massive scale and massive production all over the world. I think I'm quite happy in this organic way of growing a studio as well. And not just suddenly having to like get massive investors and then go Matt and then. So I think for me it's more about being balanced and doing it in the right way instead of just like being completely uncompromised about everything. Because it can be a little bit Matt, can it? Yeah, yeah. It can actually be a little bit Matt, can it? It's not so collaborative either, is it? No, probably not. It's always compromises with people. Actually, I think I'm quite compromise searching really like with people because that's the end of the day is the way that makes things happen. It's 80s sometimes for search to compromise. Did you have a vision for the studio when you opened it in 2019? I mean, are you where you thought you would be? No, I had no idea. No, I had no idea where we were going. I think I had a vision that started like a first research with a material. I had this vision of like one is to create a chair. I think there was some motivation for me. I was like, okay, I want to make a chair because it's like that's functional. You can sit on it and then it's kind of like check, you know, I've done it. Everybody loves the chair. Design is obsessed with chairs. What is that about? I guess it's because it's not touch the body and all that. I think so. I think that was kind of, okay, when I've done that, then I'm happy. And then it just took like a completely different direction and I ended up making installations. working with architects and all sorts. Yeah, I've still done a few chairs though, but there's more to it than chairs. - There's more to life than chairs. - Yeah. - You talk about collaboration just then, and I'm always kind of interested in it. I'm assuming you have to be quite careful with the brands you work with. I mean, are there companies that you, you wouldn't collaborate with, do you have a sense of where to draw the line? - Yeah, I think it's a really good question that because I think I can sense it on people, like what they're driven, like the motivation when they reach out. And this is a discussion that we also have often, because we're not just a materials supplier, we're a design studio, and for some it can be quite difficult for people to understand, 'cause they're like, well, we just want your materials, and it's like, yeah, but it doesn't work like that, 'cause we're a design studio, and we need to be involved in design, because these materials behave in a certain way, and we need to work with them in a certain way, and therefore we need to collaborate. And so when you say that to some, it's like, yeah, but we already, everything's already drawn up and set, and we just need these materials, and we're like, yeah, but that's not us, then, 'cause it's not how we work. 'Cause if you want to work with our materials, then we might have to change your design, we might have to change your setup. So it's a collaboration. So I think this word collaboration is probably what we try to push for. And I think that I feel like it really rounds the whole, when we talk about systemic understanding, it's not just about, systemic understanding around materials, it's also about the way we operate, and make people understand that we equal, and we collaborate, and we work together, and not just like, there's like, top-down supplier structure that is in the building sector, where it's like, you supply to us, and we tell you what to do, and it's just doesn't work anymore, that way of operating, not at least in my opinion. So I think that's what we really try to push for, and I feel like that comes with the materials. It comes a new way of not just designing, but also working together and making things work. - Very good. We are drawing towards the end of our time. You have a small child, you need to look after. - I think she's getting hungry soon, yeah. - Let's ask the final question in that case, Bonnie, which is, the material way will be at material matters London. But after that, what does the future hold for you and the natural material studio? - I think the last few years, we've been really institutional and really trying to bring forward our research, and material understanding, and production capacity, and in that we've had a lot of fun, with a lot of different collaborators, and doing a lot of commissions. And I think just over these last years, we really started to understand how our materials behave, as you said also over time, and how we technically can work with the material. So we really started to get this understanding of creating objects and producing functional works that we can put out in more domestic settings as well. So that's been the direction really, naturally for the studio, to bring these objects out that you can live and interact with on a daily basis. So that's basically what's happening more and more in the studio, we're having a really exciting first gallery show in LA next year. And we'll see what happens from there, I think. And then obviously we have a lot of fun projects in between, but yeah, so I think some good things happening. - Very good. - Yeah. - Very good. Well, Bonnie, I know you've got a lot on. Thank you so much for your time. I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed that. - Thank you very much for the questions, really. - Find out more about [email protected] while the material way is at thematerialway.com. You can go to our website, materialmatters.design to hear other podcasts that I've done to sign up to our newsletter and to find out all about material matters London, which runs from the 17th to the 20th of September at Space House. You'll also find our new bookshop, which is very, very exciting. One more thing, it would make me incredibly happy if you went to my Patreon page and made a pledge at patreon.com/materialmatters. 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