Bogg Bag: Kim Vaccarella. The $100 Million Business She Almost Abandoned

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I went in there with like, this is what's going to happen. This is what you're going to do for me. And basically, they were like, no, you need to take these bags first so that we have more room in the factory so that we can make you more bags. And I said, I'm not taking any of these bags. And the guy said, well, we'll just sell them then. We'll just sell them on our own. Doesn't matter that you own it, created it, whatever. And I just turned to him and I said, I will burn this effing factory to the ground. My husband's like, you need to calm down. And I said, if you sell them, I will burn your factory to the ground. And I left. Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz. And on the show today, how Kim Vaccarella set out to build a better, beach bag, gave up on it too early, and then got back in the game to grow Bog Bag into a multi-million dollar brand. One of the biggest challenges for any entrepreneur is knowing when to quit. When the business isn't making money or it's just not working, when do you say, I'm done? Well, for Kim Vaccarella, that decision came just one year into her career. She had invented a beach bag she called the Bog Bag. The idea was inspired by Crocs, the shoes, a bag that was sturdy and washable. Anyway, she scraped together whatever cash she had to launch it in 2011. And she managed to sell a few hundred and even get some buzz at a few trade shows. But then, disaster struck. Her first big shipment arrived from China, about $30,000 worth of product. And most of the bags, were defective. Making matters worse, the manufacturer wouldn't refund the money. It was a devastating financial blow. So Kim ditched the business and went back to focusing on her day job. Except, the people who had acquired a bag, well, they loved them and they wanted more. And so Kim started to realize that maybe she ditched the idea too early. She was focused on what was wrong with the product, but her customers were focused on everything that was right with it. So eventually, Kim was inspired to give it another try. And she borrowed $120,000 to find a new manufacturer and start over. But for years, Bogbag was a grind. Kim couldn't afford her own booth at trade shows, so she would squeeze into a single booth with four other founders. She even kept her day job working at a commercial real estate lending office. And it wasn't until about seven years into the business that she finally felt confident enough to leave that job. Today, Bogbag has sold close to five million bags and generates more than $100 million a year in sales. You can find them at Target, Nordstrom's, Dick's Sporting Goods, pretty much everywhere. But those numbers don't really capture this story. Along the way, there were years of doubt, there was depression, there was enormous strain on her family. And there were also moments when Kim, who, as you'll hear, is not exactly shy, got angry. She got stubborn. She pushed back. And sometimes that was exactly what she needed to do to keep going. Kim Vaccarella grew up in Ridgewood, New Jersey in the 1970s and 80s. Her stepdad was a police officer and her mom was a waitress. And Kim says she understood from a pretty young age that money was tight and that financial security was never something you could just assume would be there. While my parents provided for me in, the way that a parent should provide, there were things that were misses. Things that, like, when I wanted to be a cheerleader, and to be a cheerleader in Ridgewood, it was expensive and it sounds so ridiculous, but you needed to decorate the football player's house the night before the game. And it wasn't just, you know, put a banner up on his door. You need to give him treats and a basket. And sometimes there was even alcohol included. Like, you'd give him, like, a bottle of champagne or something like this. And you had to buy, you had to buy all this stuff. You had to buy all this stuff. And I was not, you know, able to secure the funds for that. And it started down a very scary path where sometimes I would have to, let's say, find the items that I needed to do this. Yeah. So it sounds like you knew that financial security, which you did not have growing up, was something that you were going to pursue however it was going to happen. 100%. And it started even earlier than then. I, you know, I remember I would pick daisies and put them in styrofoam cups and decorate the styrofoam cup and try to sell them door to door. And, you know, in junior high school, I would buy packs of bubble gum for 25 cents and I would sell each piece for 25 cents. So I was, you know, my profit margin was huge until I got caught and threatened to be suspended. And then, you know, I could have been a millionaire in middle school, But that got cut short. I know you graduated high school around, I think, 88. Was college something that was expected of you, that you were going to go to college and have a professional life? Was that sort of what you were expected to do and how you thought of yourself? No, it wasn't discussed ever. My guidance counselor told me I would be dead in a gutter before college appeared. Because you were not a good student in high school or what? I was, you know, ADD. I couldn't focus. I didn't want to be bothered. And actually, I didn't graduate in 88. I ended up dropping out of high school. I had spent a very short stint in Florida with my biological father. And I came back. And when I came back to school, I was even dumber because the Fort Lauderdale school system was so far behind the Ridgewood school system. That they wouldn't advance me. And at that point, I was 17 going on 18, I believe, and would have been a junior. And I was like, I'm done. I'm just going to go work. Yeah. And wait tables? Wait tables, bartend. In the 80s or late 80s and early 90s in North Jersey, you know, clubs were the thing. So you could make a lot of money fast. So I worked in any club that would take me and I was good. I would wait tables. I would sling drinks. I would do whatever I needed to do. This is not easy work, right? I mean, you're a young woman. You're waiting tables. You're, I mean, I can't even imagine the kinds of things that people said or the treatment that you experienced, right? But I also imagine it made you really tough. Yeah, I've always been. I think if, you know, if you asked my parents at the time, I was always tough. Maybe I was a bit. I don't know. But I just had this, you know, it was tough growing up in Ridgewood when you saw people that had more than you. So I had to have this level of toughness because it was what I knew, right? So it's how I survived at that time. And that continued on. You know, just as an aside, years ago, we had Mark Cuban on the show telling us a story of Broadcast.com. And I asked him if he lost everything and he was dropped onto a desk. And he said, the first thing I would do is get a job bartending because that's how he started in Dallas. He was a bartender. And he worked during the day as a sales guy. But you could make a lot in tips at night. And if you had the energy, you could do another job during the day. Yeah, and I did that. I mean, one of the funniest, probably one of the funniest, once I started my 26-year career in commercial real estate lending, I would literally work at night in the beginning. But I would also sometimes, I worked at a ground round in Hackensack, New Jersey. Oh, great. Ground round. Yes. And I would go over there at lunchtime sometimes and play a clown for kids' birthday parties on my lunch hour because it was quick, easy money. Yeah. All right. So you are doing a lot of jobs where you make tips. And I think around 1992, so you'd have been in your early 20s, you get a job at a commercial real estate lending office. Is that right? And what did you do there? So I started, I was a secretary and I would answer phones and eventually I would start doing the books. And then I would start working with and building relationships with the high net worth individuals. Then I started doing the spreadsheets and the rate of returns. And then I moved into a controller role. And at a certain point, I had reached $100,000 a year. Which probably was amazing, right? Which was amazing. And it was like a million dollars to me at the time. Okay. And you started a family, right? You got married and you had kids. Tell me a little bit about your family, about, yeah, tell me a little bit about it. Yeah, sure. So I met my husband when I was 27 in a bar. I knew friends of his. And I went out with a group of friends one night and he was there and he seemed very upset. And I was talking to him and he and his girlfriend had just broken up. And, you know, after that, we started dating and we got engaged a year and a half later. Okay. So you get married and it's now we're 27 years later, you're still married, right? Oh, yes. Okay. And what's your husband's name? Rosario. Rosario. Okay. And he eventually becomes a police officer. Right. And so, and I think you guys have two kids, right? Eventually one and then another one. Four years later, I have another one. Yes. And so that's basically your life, I guess, right? From sort of, you know, the year 2000 on, you guys are building a family. He's building a career as a police officer. You've got your career in commercial real estate, also juggling kids. Yes. You know, it was a good life, right? You know, this was our life. We've got a good family, good careers, and that's great. We've done pretty well. Yeah, but there was always more. Like, I just wanted. I wanted so much more. I wanted experiences. I wanted my children to have experiences that I may not have had, that I had heard about other people having. Like go travel overseas or something. Not even overseas at this point. Like take his parents who had never been out of New Jersey to Disney World with our kids when they were younger. You know, those are memories that we'll cherish forever. And, you know, just seeing even my husband who had never been to Disney World. I mean, balls. Balling. Like standing, looking at the castle, you know, holding my son. Like, I mean, I guess the easiest way to say it, I wanted it all. Yeah. But you were doing things that you could do within your means. Right. I've lived within my means. I mean, I still get, like, embarrassed over things. You know, like if I wanted something really, really bad forever and I finally get it, like, I get embarrassed about it. I just wanted. I wanted to continue. To build. I knew I was at a. where I was never going to be a $200,000 or a $300,000 a year person at the commercial real estate lending. So even while I had the kids and my husband worked 12-hour night shifts, you know, I would still sit up at night and I would make baskets and I would buy things and resell them on eBay. So you were always. you always had some kind of side hustle or an idea for a side hustle? Always. You know, I first started. With. one of my favorite stories is my son got as a gift a pair of Elmo slippers. And I believe they were $5.99. And when I tell you my son wore these every day, I mean, he wore them out. I threw them in the washing machine and they pluffed up really nice. And I was like, oh, this is great. I'm going to put this on eBay. Oh, after he was no longer using them. After he couldn't fit them. And my second son wasn't born yet. So I sold them on eBay for $20. And I was like, this is insanity. Wow. And I would go to Target when Target would have launches with, like, Missoni or, like, any one of those big, huge launches. I would buy as much stuff as I could fit into my car and I would resell it. On eBay? On eBay, yeah. Wow. At the time, it was all eBay. And now I hate it as a person who has a product. I hate the idea of the reseller. But I applaud it, too. You know? It's like that tough line. So you're doing that. And so you really are – I can see how you were just bursting to find something. Yes. But not necessarily like, oh, I'm going to start a business. It was like – it was resourceful. It was like, I can arbitrage these and sell on eBay. Right? It was that kind of stuff. But were you also thinking about, well, maybe I could start a business? Like, did that ever come? to your mind? No, I didn't think I had any business starting a business. I had no experience. I didn't think I was smart enough. I didn't think I'd be taken serious enough. I had, I didn't think that there was more to me, but I was going to keep trying. Yeah. Okay. Let's go back to 2008 roughly, because I think this was the year when you got the inspiration for what you would eventually create. It would take some time. Tell me what you remember about having this idea for a different kind of bag. Yeah. So I had started reading some books and I'm not a reader, unfortunately, but I started reading like How to Make a Million Dollars, Millionaire Mommy, and like different books like that. And most of them at the time were comics. And I was like, I'm going to make a million dollars. And I was going to make a million dollars. And I was like, I'm going to make those. They sold to Crocs around 2008 for around $20 million, something like that. It was somewhere in and around that timeframe. Yes. But they had sold for $20 million. And this was literally a woman in Colorado weaving daisies through the holes of the shoes. And then people started asking her to do it to their shoes. And then her husband, from what I remember, her husband had some manufacturing experience. And he's like, hey, we can make these little things. And they ended up selling this. I mean, can you imagine, by the way, how much Crocs is made off of that acquisition? I mean, those things kind of made Crocs, right? Because I remember my kids, they would collect those things and just like, right? I mean, that was, and it is a huge part of Crocs. Okay. So you knew that story and you thought, hey, could I come up with something that I could sell to somebody like the gibbets people did? Yes, exactly. And my boys were very active, a lot of sports, but we also love to spend a lot of time at the beach and my. The Jersey Shore, I'm assuming. The Jersey Shore. And going to the Jersey Shore is an all day event. You need, you have to bring out everything that you're going to need for the entire day because you have to claim real estate first thing in the morning. You need to set up, you need to make it, you usually go back, have breakfast, coffee, whatever. And then you're bringing everything back with you. So, you know, I was never finding the right beach bag because I would literally use them once or twice. I'm an obsessive coffee drinker and I would spill things on the beach bags. My kids would get their dirty hands on it. There's sand in it. So, you know, all of these things culminated I need a beach bag that's going to work. And I was not into the Crocs phase. I did not like them, but we went to a surf shop. We were going to Great Adventure for the day and my kids forgot their sneakers. And I'm like, I am not going to Great Adventure in flip-flops for you. Like, that's not happening. I've been there as a parent. My kids are wearing flip-flops. I'm like, what are you doing? Yeah. I'm like, you need some kind of closed-toed shoes. Right. So, it was either I spent a hundred dollars on a pair of Nike skate sneakers that they didn't want or I bought them the Crocs. So, I bought them the Crocs and we went and they worked fine. And the next day we're sitting on the beach again and I'm just playing with these shoes and I'm feeling the material. It kind of gets like warm, but it doesn't get hot. It's a little pliable. Like you can kind of pull on it. It's not stretchy, but you can feel it. And I was just intrigued by the material. And my husband and I were talking and I was like, this is. This is what a beach bag should be made of. You can wash it off at the end of the day, just like you could the Crocs. So, I went back that night. We probably left the beach at like six o'clock at night and I started looking on the internet and there was nothing like it that existed. And I was like, this is something really cool. And I drew and I have no artistic ability at all. And I drew out exactly what I wanted to see. It was very utilitarian. It was square. It was open. So, you can get in and out of there, but it had structured, sides, and it had a non-tip bottom. And I had from that minute what this bag needed to be and needed to look like. So, okay. It was the material. The material of the Crocs is this like EVA material. It's similar to the foam in like sneakers, right? It's this pliable foam that is moldable. And I'm curious that you. Like you went home and designed this. So, you must have been excited about this. You must have thought. Were you the kind of person that got excited about a bunch of different ideas and like you did this with other ideas? Or was this really different? This was different only because I had the Crocs or the gibbet story in one ear, you know? And then I was like, hey, but if they got $20 million for these little pieces of plastic, I ought to get $50 million for my bag. Your idea, if I might be jumping to conclusions here, is that I'm going to design a bag and come up with a concept and then sell the idea to Crocs and they can buy it from me. Correct. That was what you're thinking at that point. Okay. Yes. I mean, listen, it was a long process. But I immediately, because of what I read in that book. In these books, yeah. I had to get a patent. That's what the book said to do. Patent your idea first. Right. Don't tell anybody about it. I even sent a letter to myself because that was like a recommendation in one of the books is like, write yourself a letter with your idea and send it to yourself and don't open it and have it date stamped. You were not interested in making this yourself or starting a business. It was the idea. No. How was I going to make it myself? Look at it. It's like insane. How am I going to make this myself? So that thought did not even cross my mind in the early stages. My thought was, let me get the patent. So because I worked in. I worked in commercial real estate lending, I knew a lot of real estate attorneys. Real estate attorneys know other attorneys. So I was turned on to a boutique patent attorney in New York. And eventually we would get two design and two utility patents filed. And then once those were filed, right, and I had the application number for them, it could take two years for those things to come out. But I knew that once it was filed, I was free to kind of talk about it. This is an expensive process. I mean, to hire a patent attorney, especially when, you know, money was not like free flowing in your house, this is going to cost anywhere from $5,000 to $25,000, maybe more dollars. Yeah. So, you know, one thing I always knew how to do was negotiate. So I would negotiate the best rates that I possibly could get. And unfortunately, it came at the expense of, you know, some other things that I may have wanted to do. But, you know, at one point we took out a pension loan from my husband's pension. I used some of the money. We didn't get to save a lot, but neither my husband or I went to college. So we for sure wanted to make sure that our kids were able to go to four years and not have to pay for it. So I started pulling from that a little bit, but I've always had this. It'll be all right. I'll make this work. Okay. So your idea is to sell your, design. And the design is this kind of square bottomed bag that, that had a washable, you know, made out of this EVA material like Crocs. And so did you start to call potential buyers to pitch them on this idea? Yeah. The only person that I knew to call was Crocs. Okay. You called Crocs. So I called Crocs and I would never, a lot of times wouldn't get through. I tried to number. They said it wasn't the right number for it. I found the office number. I think the farthest I got was I got somebody on the phone and I said, listen, I have a really good idea. I kind of shortened up my pitch at this point. I have a good idea for you. I need like five minutes of somebody's time, like 10 minutes max. And I got this one girl on the phone one time and she's like, we have like 200 people in research and development that we, we pay people to come up with ideas. I'm like, okay, cool. Pay me. And she's like, yeah, no. I'm like, so there's nobody I can speak with. I'm telling you, I have a really good idea. And in that kind of like this whiny voice. And I said, all right, well, you know what? Maybe I'll make the bag myself. And she goes, all right, good luck with that. And she hung up the phone and I'm on the other lens and I'm going, bitch, I'm going to make this bag. I'm going to make this bag. And that was the start of it all. Okay. I love that, that, that, that motivated you. That's really critical. But, and then what? I mean, how, where, with who? Like there's so many questions you have at this point. How do I start? Yeah. So I'm like, okay, well, I need to figure out how to manufacture this bag. So where do you manufacture? You manufacture in China, right? And you knew that because of like some of these websites like Alibaba and others, or you just, because I don't even know if Alibaba existed at that time. At that time, but you just always heard that everything is made in China. Is made in China. Yes. Right. So my first thing was, okay, well, my neighbor's from China. He was from China. Like he actually moved to the US. He was from China and moved to the US. And, and you were like, hey, you're from China. Do you know how I can make something in China? Is that literally what you asked him? Yeah, it was awkward. I'm like, hey, this is going to sound really weird, but do you know a manufacturer in China? He was like, you would think I would, but I really don't. I'm like, damn, I wish he knew somebody in China. And I went home and later that night, he actually, I don't remember if he called or stopped by, but he was like, you know what? He's like, I was thinking about it. And a friend that I went to university with, his parents have a factory. He's like, they make smaller scale stuff, but I can introduce you to him if you want. And maybe he knows somebody. So I said, I would love that. So he introduces me to this gentleman and he introduced me to another woman. Who was making flip-flops. So that was more in the realm of what I was looking at. It would end up that shoes and bags, well, shoes and my bags, because we were the only EVA bag at the time, but they were being made in the same type of machinery. Because I just to, to imagine this, the, that material, the EVA, it's, it's like a liquid that's poured into a mold and then it, it cools and hardens into the shape. Yeah. It actually in the EVA in its raw, form comes in pellets in bags. And then the color is mixed to them and then it's put into a job. It's heated and cooled, just like you said. Okay. So you're introduced to another manufacturer that does flip-flops. And you're doing this all on the phone or through email? Through email. How much were they going to charge you? You're asking if they could do this. And first of all, a lot of these places have huge minimum orders. And did you guys get to that point? Did they say, well, you got to order 30,000 of these? Or they were just willing to make a prototype for you? They were willing to make a prototype for me. And the greatest thing about not knowing what I was doing, and I say this to every entrepreneur I meet, is I said no to everything. It didn't matter if it sounded reasonable to me. I said no to it. No to what? Prices, minimums, anything that I possibly could. Because I didn't know. So what was the worst that they could do? It was come back and say, well, you have to order 30,000. And then I would go and look for somebody else. But fortunately, I ran into a situation where I was like, hey, this is going to be huge. This is going to be the next biggest thing that you are manufacturing. You need to be able to work with me here. I'm not paying $25,000 for a mold. Well, but that's the thing. They have to make a mold in order to make your prototype. So how much was that going to cost you? The initial mold costed me $5,000. Okay, so they're going to charge you $5,000 to make. And did you make a commitment to them that if you liked the prototype, once you got there, you would do a minimum order? No. Nothing? Nothing. When did you remember receiving the first prototype? In 2010, I believe. So about a year and a half after you first had this spark of an idea. Yes. Okay. What do you remember about seeing that when it arrived? So my husband was the first to see it. And because he worked nights, he was home during the day. I was at work. And he called me up and he's like, you need to come home right now. So of course, I'm thinking, disaster, something happened to one of my kids. I was like, I can't leave work. I don't have that luxury to be able to leave. And he's like, you just, you got to get home as soon as you can. So I'm like, well, I'll get home at the normal time that I normally get home every single day. So I get home and there are three bags sitting. And I'm sitting on my dining room table. And he's like, this is the coolest shit I've ever seen. When we come back in just a moment, Kim takes her bags to a trade show for the first and almost the last time. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This. If you travel often, you'll want to hear about this. For the first time ever, new Delta SkyMiles Reserve American Express card members can earn two Delta Comfort round-trip flights for travel within the 48 contiguous U.S. states, Puerto Rico, or the U.S. Virgin Islands. 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So it's 2010 and Kim's just received the first prototypes of her sturdy, washable beach bags. Three of them in three separate colors. Olive, yellow, and pink. Yep. So I take the pink one. You know, I show it to a couple people, family members and whatever. And they're like, oh my God, that's amazing. And like, I'm like, are they just being nice? Did anybody say, eh? At that time, no. Okay. At that time, no. But I took it to a store that was called Pink Bungalow in Ridgewood. Okay. Is it nice, like a boutique that you liked? It was a beautiful boutique. And there was a girl in there, Mary Frances, and she was their buyer. And she always even merchandised. So beautifully and everything looks so nice. And I walk in with this pink bag and I am scared to death. Because I can talk to anybody, but like now I'm like trying to sell something. And I wasn't a salesman. It's crazy. You had the confidence to do a lot of difficult things. But when it came time to you face-to-face as a sales rep, you got nervous. I was petrified. Yeah. So I walk in and I had met Mary Frances before. So I was like, hey, I was like, I have this new product. And she just like looks at it and she grabs it with her hands and she goes, I don't know what the hell this is or what it does, but I think I need it. And that was my first order. Wow. I really didn't even know what a pitch was or how to present it or I didn't even know the cost. Yeah. She's like, oh, I love this. I think this is great. How much are you selling them for, Kim? Yeah. Yeah. So I ended up, you know, I doubled the cost of the product. Okay. And then I doubled it again. So you're going to sell it for $60 and I'm going to sell it to you for $30. Literally made that up while I was standing there. It was not based on any calculations. It was just an instinctive number. It was. Yeah. At that time, it was absolutely instinctive because I didn't know about wholesale and retail and margins and anything. I just made up the number. And she said, great. I'd say that's great. I'll take. How many did she say she'd take? Somewhere between six and 12. Let's test them out and let's see how they do. Okay. You got to put an order in in China or maybe you had already put the order in. Yeah. I was ordering 300. 300. Okay. Yeah. And by the way, how much was that going to cost you to order 300? I'd have to remember. It was under $10,000. Yes. Okay. So you got 300 bags being made. Did you have a name for these bags? Oh, yeah. It was already in the mold. So it was Bog. It was in the mold. Okay. Bog. Okay. So Bog was embedded or embossed in the bag. And tell me about that name, Bog, because it's, you know, I'm sure that initially some people were like, Bog, like a marsh. Like, what is a bog? Or a toilet. Yeah. Yeah. Which I didn't know at the time. That's right. In the UK, they call the toilet the bog. Yes. Yes. In England. That's right. Yeah. Okay. So Bog. So how did you come up with that name? I was literally looking for a four-letter. better word to go with Crocs. So it was going to be something by Crocs or something by Croc. Wow. And I started thinking about the waterproof nature of the material, the washable nature of it. So for some reason I had frogs in my head and then I started rhyming and I went frog, pog, tog. And then in an English accent that I clearly don't have, I said bog, it's the new bag. And not even knowing that in the UK it was a toilet. And I would be reminded of this in my first trade show by a 25-year-old master of marketing. And he's like, you know, you're never going to sell a bag with that name. I said, well, I already bought the bags and it's in the mold. And he's like, I'm telling you, listen to me. I have experience. And he goes, do you know what that means? It means toilet. And I said, at least it's effing washable. And I walked away. I had no choice. I couldn't change the name at that point. So it was going to stick and I was going to make it work. Okay. So you've got the name and you've got these bags coming and you get six to 12 of them in this boutique. Yes. Tell me about that first batch of 300 bags. So the 300 bags, so I have six to 12 in Pink Bungalow. And now the bags are selling, but I'm still not convinced because I don't know if it's family and friends going in there. I don't know who's buying the bags. Like I couldn't say like who bought them. You know, I just had to be happy that they were selling. They also sold at their other location, which I believe was in Montclair at the time. So they placed a reorder. I put more bags with them. And then the other ones, I didn't know what DTC was. I didn't know direct to consumer. I didn't know how to build a website. I didn't have the money to build a website. So I went with what I know and I know how to talk to people. And tell them about my product. Yeah, right. Because you had 12 of them in the stores, but then you're still left with, you know. I still have all these other ones. Yeah. Right. So I became friends with a group of women on Facebook. It was a mompreneurs group. And people started talking about trade shows and trade show seasons coming up. And I'm doing this trade show. And I'm like, what the hell is a trade show? Like, and I think I need to be there. So I convinced myself I had to go to Orlando for the Surf Expo. So I got the cheapest motel. It was like the Bates Motel. But that's what I did. And I went to this trade show. And I'm next to all these brands that like. This is like a gift, a big gift show or. Yeah, but it's more surf, you know, and I figured surf fit us, right? Like your surf shops are going to buy it or your beach shops are going to buy it. So there's O'Neill and Hurley and Billabong and all these big brands and these massive boots. And here I am with like, you know, 12 bags. I have no idea what I'm doing. I had guests on my wholesale pricing. I put together an order form that I probably did on Excel or Microsoft. And yeah, and I just started selling bags there. How many orders did you did you walk out of that trade show with? I had over 10, which, according to the guy across from me who created the slap watch, said, that's pretty good for your first trade show. 10 orders of like roughly. Well, I made them by a certain amount. So I made them by six bags. OK. And a lot of people were like, oh, six. Nothing. No big deal. No big deal. So we had some early on people that were like, OK, I see. I see what you're doing here, but I'm making nothing. Right. Because I have. Yeah, I have legal fees that I still haven't paid yet. And, you know, the manufacturer had to get paid and, you know, things needed to be replaced. So I'm making nothing, but I'm I'm selling. And you. And by the way, through all of this, you're doing your job, your day job. You're doing your job. As a controller at a commercial real estate agency. Yes. And I'm using vacation days for trade shows or to go here or to go there. So it was it was a lot. It was a lot. I was doing, you know, bog at night and work during the day and, you know, kids in between and and and all of the things. OK, so I want to ask you about getting some traction. Right. But still very, very small. And I know that that around 20. I mean, you must have been gaining confidence because you spent that year. I think you managed to sort of cobble together some money and you put in an order for twelve hundred bags from this factory. And I read it was going to cost you about thirty thousand dollars. Yes. So I was anxiously waiting for this twelve hundred. So and this was going to go again. You had orders for boutiques, small, mainly small boutiques and but no direct. No website selling these at this point. No. OK. So you place this order. Mm hmm. The container arrives, thirty thousand dollar order. Yes. There's a problem. Yeah, it's midnight, it's pitch black. And at this point I rented an extra space storage unit. The container shows up late. We have, you know, it's my husband there. He pulled a couple of guys from the police department to come over and help. We gave them food. We had one of one or both of my sons there. And I'm like, this is our fault. It's our first full container like this is full of cardboard boxes. But the excitement is pal well, like, I'm like, this is amazing. Like my kids were excited. My friends were excited, like to see a full container roll up. Right. And we start unloading them, putting them into the storage unit. And I just want to dig in. I want to open up a box and I wait a little while. But when I open up the first box, I see black streaks now functionality. Perfect color, beautiful. Everything was exactly as I wanted it, except it had these black streaks. Like what color the bag was like pink or yellow and had black streaks on it. Yeah, it could have been red. It could. I think at that point I had five colors. So it would just have these black like lines, almost like a pen line. Right. And it wouldn't wipe off because I tried, believe me, with everything. Anything I could possibly find to to to wipe off this black mark. That was only in one box. No, that was in every box. It was in every box. I will not say it was on every bag, but it was in every box. At this point, we went to three per box. So if I was getting one good bag out of ten boxes, it was literally I was so sick to my stomach and I was like, I failed. I'm done. Can I just pause for a sec? Can I ask you why? Like, could could you have not gotten away with selling those bags? I mean, maybe people would notice maybe that they think as part of the design, I could have and I later realized that they would not have noticed, but it was not what I wanted for my first time out. This was my first large order and I had always envisioned it as a Nordstrom's bag or something like that. And I said, I can't sell a product that I can't stand behind. So what happened? Why were there black streaks in the bags? Well, basically what it was was. It was laziness. It was sheer laziness. Basically, that barrel that they're mixing the color in has to be cleaned thoroughly, has to be washed right. It has to be washed. So somebody was lazy in washing it. So there was some of the prior color left in there when they put the new color in there. So when it was getting in, there was burning. So it was causing this little like fleck. So this black fleck. I'm assuming you contact the manufacturer and you say, hey, guys, you screwed up. You've got to send me. Send me a new batch. And no, no, what? No, we're not sending you a new batch. As a matter of fact, we have more to send you and then send me a refund. Yeah, well, good luck with that. I mean, $30,000. They said, no, we're not going to. And you look at these bags there. They're fine, but they're they're damaged. Yeah, what you're saying makes perfect sense. But that is not how it went. They said no. No, no, no, sorry. You that's what you ordered. You know, they did at one point. They did agree. They would send me more bags. But my concern was you're just going to send me the more bags that you already have manufactured there. And I'm going to have the same problem. So basically what we did was at that time is I did have orders to fill. So I had to literally pick through everything and see if I could piece or parse together an order, just at least to keep the customers that ordered them happy until I could get some more. So you were able to fulfill the orders, but you probably were left with what? How many bags would you say were defective? Between 800 and a thousand. Wow. Okay. And 30 grand is a lot of money. And you had not raised the money. This was not investors money. This is your savings. This was my savings. Yeah. Well, my husband and my savings. Yeah. And my kid's college fund. And your kid's college fund. Yeah. It was heartbreaking. It was, you know. I was disgusted. I was. But all in the back of my mind, I was still like, I'm going to figure this out. This can't be the end. But then at one point I decided because life was getting busier. You know, I had one son playing three sports and one son playing two and just daily life. And I just, I literally shut down. And I think that was in this portion of my life. probably one of the first depressions of like, I have let my family down where I was like, what did you do? So this situation combined with, well, the defective bags and the money that you spent on it and just the frustration, you decided to just freeze the business, stop entirely? Well, the first thing was, now what am I going to do with these bags? Because I can't now pay for an extra space storage unit for bags I can't sell, that I can't use. What am I going to do with these bags? And it was around the time that Superstorm Sandy hit the Jersey Shore. This is October of 2012. Huge storm that could cause billions of dollars in New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut. Yes. And it literally came through, 30, 40 foot waves came through and it literally came through. And it literally came through. The same beach that the idea for Bog Bag was born. Houses were literally wiped from their foundation. Just a huge disaster. It was insane. And this happens just at the same time as you're going through this disaster with this order that has just cost you all this money. I'm trying to figure out what to do with these bags because again, the functionality and the color were beautiful. And I was like, there's got to be something to do. And then, the idea clicked one day is like, hey, what about all the people that worked their entire lives in Bergen County, which is already way too expensive, all to just move to the Jersey Shore. And then now their houses are gone. So I was like, already in this funky state. And now I'm thinking about this. And I thought about, hey, why don't we see if we can go down there and we'll use these bags as the vehicle. And we started collecting all of these things, Clorox wipes and paper towels, water bottles, granola bars, flashlights, gloves, masks, anything that they could, you know, there was no electricity still. So they're going into these houses that are probably likely filled with molds. They're sopping wet. Everything is dirty. They needed, you know, large garbage bags to take all the debris out. And so I had this idea of, you know, I'm going to go down there and I'm going to this idea. And we called the mayor of Tom's River. Right on the Jersey Shore. That town was like totally devastated. Yeah. So now I had to get a trailer to now bring these bags. Everybody coming over the bridge when they finally opened it, like just the looks on their faces. They're like, this is catastrophic. It's terrible. And it looked like a third world country. I mean, there were burning barrels and army reservists and people just standing there like warming. It was freezing, freezing, freezing cold. And we got a personal escort in because we said we're coming with all of these supplies. And then we started working with the Army Corps of Engineers. And we had this massive group of people here to help us distribute bog bags. And it was kind of like a, here we are with this big ass yellow bag. And we're like, here, but take these things to make your life a little bit easier. Like we're, we're, we're trying to do whatever we can. And we handed out every single bag. And that was it. That's essentially, you got rid of 800 bags as you just donated them. Yep. I mean, I understand you earlier, you mentioned depression. And I, I mean, it's, I understand, like you, you had put a lot on the line here and, and it was, it was rough. Like you were struggling. And, um, but it, but it sounds like you didn't necessarily, you weren't necessarily saying this is over. You were just putting it on pause. No, I was done. You were done. This was over. I was done. I failed. And it was what it was. And, and all my focus now was what do I need to do? And that could be wait tables again to replace the money that I had lost. Kim, you had sold bags. You'd order some trade shows. Boutiques were selling them. I mean, weren't any of them like contacting you and saying, Hey, we are ready to do a new order. I mean, They were, but I, I could not, you know, it was part of the depression. I couldn't get myself to get past that point to where I'm like, Hey, you know, saddle up. We're going to get through this. And it took a little while in my mind. I was done anyway. But what happened was I had a Facebook page for the people that were coming to get supplies from us called bog bag for the beaches. And this was the charitable arm of what we were doing during Sandy. And on this Facebook page, you know, it was a lot of like, Hey, like checking in on everybody, seeing how they're doing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And people would post things about Sandy on it. And then between nine months, I was like, Oh my God, I'm going to be like, I'm going to be a year after Sandy. Now all these people have had their bog bags in the worst possible scenario. All these people who got a donation. Oh, all the, yes. Everybody that received a donation had these bog bags in molds, dirt, sand, water, you know, in like the worst situation possible. So the recipients of the bog bags with all of the supplies started reaching out through bog bag for the beaches. And they were like, wait, I need to buy like more of these bags. I need one for my family members. I want to buy them for gifts. I want them for Christmas. I want them for, they didn't notice the black marks. They didn't care. They love the idea of the bag. This is not a religious show. I don't want to push anything on you, but I'm just like, sometimes you have to think that there's forces that are working that you just don't understand at that moment because you're giving these bags away. But then those people who receive them, they're not coming and saying, Oh, thank you. And we want to show you a good faith. They're saying we really love these bags. They're really great. We want to order more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't explain it either, but it happens at that time. And it was one of those moments where I, I sat and I said, shit, now I got to make this damn bag. Did, did, did, did that start to kick you out of your depression? Yeah, for sure. Because now I had that renewed energy again. Right. Like I was like, Oh my God, wait, these are people I don't know that I don't have personal connection to that are finding value in something that I built. And yes, that did absolutely re-energize me. And the first thing was, was to call up the factory and figure out how they were going to help me and what they were going to do for me. But this time you were actually going to visit, you were going to fly to China for the first time. Yes. Okay. So you go to China to this factory to figure out what went wrong and how they could fix it. Right. Okay. Figured out the issue is what I said. It was the flack burning off, getting into the bags. They weren't cleaning the, the, the barrel. Yeah. Barrel, huh? Yeah. So we go there, we meet, first of all, just going to China for the first time and being outside of the country and then going to China. Was that your first time out of the US? Except for like the Caribbean. Yes. Wow. That was so, and you were at this point, I mean, in your forties, right? Easily. I was in my forties. Yes. So we get to this factory but I was not doing well. Um, from the flight to the, the four hour car rides, like I was already on edge. Um, we get to this factory and when we got there, it was nice. Um, they offer me tea and we're sitting down and it's, you know, there's obviously a language barrier, but, um, we go down and we look at the factory and I'm seeing all the bags there and I immediately just start picking through them and I'm looking at them and I'm like, these all have black streaks. They, they, all have black streaks. I'm like, what's going on? And they're like, what's going on? And I said, and you need to make me new bags. And once you make me those new bags, then there will be orders for more bags. But until we can figure out this situation, like we're not moving forward. So I don't know why I thought I was going to be able to get this done, but I went in there with like, this is what's going to happen. And basically they were like, no, you need to take these bags first so that we have more room. And I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. And they were like, no, you need to take them in the factory so that we can make you more bags. And I could have been in jail in China for all I knew, but I was so furious. I said, if you sell them, I will burn your factory to the ground. And I left and that was it. And I went back and I was like, okay, now what? When we come back in just a moment, Kim does figure out how to make more bags. And when she can't afford her own booth at a trade show, she puts together a timeshare. Stay with us. I'm Guy Thank you. September is World Alzheimer's Month, but most people never check their brain health until something's feeling off or wrong. I wanted to stop waiting and look at my own data. So I signed up for Function. 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So it's 2013, and Kim has decided to make more bags. But she's also decided. To fire the factory that originally made them. So with no factory and no good leads, she gets on social media. I go back to my mom entrepreneur's group. The mompreneur Facebook group. Yes. Okay. And after a little bit of posting, one woman replied, and she was having a. She makes a breast pump bag, and she was having her breast pump made at a factory in China and offered to make an introduction. Did she? Did that factory work out? Was that the one that you decided to go with? I still use them to this day. That's wild. So they weren't making anything like this, but they had the ability to do this. Yes. Okay. So you have a new factory, but you have a problem, right? Because you still need the cash to get these bags. And, you know, I should just paint the picture. You're still doing your full-time, your day job. And you decide to revive this business. And that means going back to trade shows and working nights and weekends and needing cash for an order. First of all, let's talk about the cash. How were you going to do that? So I started putting together what I needed, and I refused to use any more of my own money at that point. There was nothing left. Like, it was like, take out another loan or whatever. In the meantime, the attorney in our office, who I had worked with. I had worked with at that point for years. He's like, you know, my wife has a little bit of money she was looking to invest. Maybe she'll want to do it. I said, Jordan, you know I have no financials. I have no nothing. He goes, no, but I know you. And he used to call me kiddo all the time. He wasn't that much older than me, but he used to call me kiddo. And he's like, kiddo, I know you. So I meet his wife for lunch, and I run her through it. And she's like, okay, let's do this. And I. Get $120,000 for, which is exactly what I needed, to the penny to get the first order, to pay the bill, and to move on. None of this was to pay myself, do anything for me. It was just to get out of the rut and then to get a new. It was to get back going. And we signed the paperwork, and I gave them 25% of the business. And that was. And it was just a. It was like a very straightforward trust deal. I mean, they, again, you didn't have a data room and all this stuff for them to go. You didn't have it. And you couldn't. So it was purely just trust and instinct. Like, they knew your work ethic, and they were like, okay, we'll give you $120,000, and we'll take 25% of the business. I don't even think they asked for 25%. I think I offered it. Yeah. Okay. You know, at the time, it was like, if I'm going to make this, and somebody's willing to invest in me without any financials and. No proven track record at this point. You got to give them some skin. Right. So I'm going to give them something. And with this money, you were able to put in another order and then now go back into the trade show world. Correct. But what was something really, something really cool happened out of this mompreneurs group again, is that there were a lot of us that were struggling that could not afford to go to these shows. I mean, these booths, they're used car salesmen at these shows. Yeah. Like, they'll. They're like 10 grand for a booth. Or more. Or more. And they will tell you it's the last booth left if you don't. If you don't commit right now, you'll never get into another show. So you're in a full-on panic. So it's clearly frowned upon to share a booth. But I said, screw it. Like, let's just try. So I gathered this bunch of women who all wanted to try trade shows. And we would put five women in a 10 by 10 booth. Selling different things. Completely different things. From a sarong to a wine glass to a bog bag. To whatever it was. But we would make it look as cohesive as possible. And, you know, all five of us couldn't stand there at one time. So we would have to kind of stand off to the side. Yeah. And we would share hotel rooms. These were women I didn't know. But I didn't care. And it worked. I mean, there was probably at least seven and maybe up to 10 trade shows where I did this until I actually broke out on my own several years later. Wow. Okay. So, and this is all on your vacation time. And weekends. And, right? Like, okay. How are you just personally managing? I mean, you got growing kids, teenagers, and you need to be driven around. And your husband's got a busy job. And you've got a busy job. And I'm assuming you did not have enough money to have a nanny or help. Am I right? No. We were able to make it work as much as we can make it work. And I remember being at my youngest son's junior high school. And Anthony, he's such a smart kid. And he's a great kid. But he would always find himself getting, very much like his mother. We're sitting down talking to the therapist in the school. And she's like, so what's been going on? And once you start saying it out loud, and I'm like, well, I work 40 to 60 hours a week. And then I'm going to the warehouse at night. And then I'm picking up Anthony or dropping off Vincenzo. Or- Rosario's doing this. And we had figured out that we were doing this for nine years. Wow. It's probably one of my greatest regrets is just not realizing that time that it was moving so fast. It was working and it was getting done. So it didn't cause me pause to have to really think about it until she put it into perspective and said, guys, you've really been going for the last nine years. And it takes a toll. It did. It did. I mean, it could, you know, it- I mean, this is the thing that I think a lot of people interested in starting a business don't fully appreciate until they do it, which is a lot of things are happening in the background that require huge personal sacrifice on families, on marriages, on relationships, kids. Sorry. Sorry. But it does. It's hard. It does. And when you, you know, it just reminded me again. Because you're still, you have a steady paycheck that you need. You can't just jump ship. You still need that paycheck from the real estate company. Yeah. We need, I needed every bit of it. And it was just you, right? Yeah. It was just me until we got the product again. So once the product came in again- I have to hit it heavy with the trade shows. I have to get a DTC side up. Everything was literally left up to me and my husband when he could and my older son when he was available. But I asked my son, I said- Your older son. My older son. I said, do you have any friends that want to work? And the only person that responded was a girl. And it was Julie. And Julie is still here to this day. She was my- My first employee. And she would go to school and I would go to work and we would meet at the warehouse at night and we would kick ass. We would pack boxes, label them up, get them on the truck, get them off the truck, do whatever we needed to do. We would be sweating and dying in there. And then we would go home and we would come back and do it all again the next day. How long before you were able to pay back that $120,000 loan? I believe somewhere in- In 15 or 16. That's fast. Yeah, it was fast. So you paid that back. And I think by 2017, you're in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? You're doing a few hundred thousand dollars in sales. Yeah, we did a few hundred thousand dollars in sales. The team grew from two to like three in a warehouse worker. So now I had payroll and I had taxes that had to be paid and all of these other things. I mean, there's just so much more than selling. product. It's crazy. OK, so what gave you the confidence to leave your job after 26 years and give up a paycheck, a steady paycheck and go all in? Because you made this decision in 2018. What was what gave you the courage to do that? I was tired. You know, now I'm in my at that point, what, however old I was in my 40s, 48, and I had worked a long, long time and a lot of hours. And this wasn't so that I could get a break. It was just I could not do both anymore. I decided in July, I think it was coming back. We took a vacation and coming back from that, the pile of work left for me at work and just all of it. And I just I said, I have to leave. I told my husband and he's like, I'll support you, whatever you want to do. And I wasn't taking a paycheck from the business at all. So I made up a number in my head and I said, I. I need to sell a million dollars this year. If I'm going to leave my job. And that would be enough to pay yourself. I don't even know. I just made up that number. I didn't know if how I was going to pay myself, if I was going to pay myself. I just knew I needed to sell a million dollars. So this wasn't I said the courage to leave. And it sounds like you would argue there wasn't really courage. It was just exhaustion. And you were just you couldn't do both of these jobs. I couldn't do both anymore. But. You had enough conviction in this other thing that was growing that it was worth taking the risk. I did. I said, you know what? It's been, you know, at that point, it's 10 years now, 2008 to 2018. Like, shit or get off the pot. I'm either going to go full into this or. What am I doing? Yeah. So I give them notice in July that I'm going to leave the end of July. And I didn't end up leaving until October. And at that point, I'm like, now I only have three months to get to this million dollars and to make this work. How are you going to do that? Just pounding phones, just checking in with customers, reorders, calling everybody who'd done orders, just calling them back and saying, do you need more bags? Yeah. Posting on social and building an organic following and talking about the stores. That was one of the most I think one of the most beneficial things that I did early on was. I would talk about whoever was carrying me. You would talk about it to who? To social media. We didn't have a bazillion followers. We didn't even probably have 10,000 followers at the time, but there was engagement on it. So I was like, if you're looking for a bog bag in Easley, South Carolina, go see so and so. It was the personal connection that I had created with these stores that I wanted to see them succeed. So you had three months. You had three months to hit a million dollars. That's a lot of pressure. Yeah, it was. But we did it. We squeaked it by. And, you know, we're flying high going into 2019 and then COVID hits. So 2019, well, you got 2019. And how did you do in 2019? Do you remember what you did in sales? Like probably double one million. Yeah, I think it was two or three. Yeah. And then COVID hits. And I imagine that's going to be a huge problem for you because you're in small boutiques that are, you know, probably in many states they had to shut down. Yeah, it it thankfully we kept everybody employed. And in the state of New Jersey, we fell under manufacturing. So we were able to stay open. But how are we going to sell bags and who? Yeah. Who's closed? Who's not? Trade shows. Right. Trade shows are canceled. But we had. We had our group of customers and we had social media to talk to them. And we started seeing creativity come out of the stores because they needed to keep their lights on and their employees paid. And we started seeing them using bog bag as the vehicle for Easter because Easter was coming up and you couldn't go to the store and buy Easter baskets. So they would use bog bag and they would use something that could be just sitting on their shelves or sitting in the back storeroom for the past six months. And they would package it up as one. They would package it up as one kit and caboodle and they would sell it and it would be curbside delivery and where every other brand that I knew went D to C only during COVID. Yeah. We kind of took the opposite and we went wholesale heavy. So I was about 90 percent wholesale over COVID. And basically you're the shops where you were selling it. They were promoting you. They were promoting your product. They were promoting because they were showing pictures of the product. So then it was giving more people the idea. And then. We went viral during COVID and not by my doing or anybody else's doing, but by Peloton moms group because Peloton moms had bog bags that they would keep their sneakers in and they're all on the screen together cycling and they all started talking about bog bag. So now our D to C starts kicking up. Our stores are looking for more product and we end up COVID in a two year backlog of products. Wow. Yeah. I saw something that that one of the things that are the maybe one of the reasons why they took off is because people are so freaked out about germs and bog bags are washable. Well, that's what it was, too. We had a lot of we had a lot of teachers. We had hospitals buying our bags because they weren't allowed. You could spray it with Lysol. Right. You could just wipe it down. They weren't using. It's a non-porous material. So they weren't allowing leather and canvas. Do you have an estimate of when you hit? Ten million dollars in sales in annual sales. Somewhere around 20. 2020. Yeah. So that was OK. So end of COVID. So, wow. So you're coming out of COVID. All engines blazing and people are discovering this bag and you are eventually approached by a potential acquirer, which we don't know the name because there's been a bunch of NDA signed. So we don't, you know, believe me, I looked and it's a good well-kept secret. But a publicly traded company approached you for a majority stake and they would have given you a lot of money, like more than life changing money, like money that will change your grand and great grandchildren's lives. Yeah, 100 percent. Tell me what what happened. You get a call out of the blue. I had a retailer and the owner of this group of stores. Happened to be friends with the CEO at this company at the time and, you know, everything's such a weird, you know, set of coincidences. Right. I didn't need the money. We were profitable. So there was no real need. The only need was I was probably in the, you know, 20 million dollar range at that point. And we had no systems. I was taking orders on pen and paper. Everything was. Done like manually and I was like, as we continue to grow, you know, things were going to get more difficult. So I really needed infrastructure. So we we had great conversations, met several times and they were great. And I just, you know, we we instantly jived and everything was going really well. And then I started looking into them a little bit more and I'm like, OK, well, they're on a little bit of a downswing and I had known them. I grew up with this brands, so I was very familiar, but I was seeing that they were kind of on a downswing. And then I'm looking at their expenses. I mean, they're not showing me any financials or anything like that, but they're a publicly traded company. So there were things that I was able to look up and I'm looking what the CEO is making and I'm like, oh, I'm never going to have a CEO that makes that much money. I was like, that's insane. I was like, for a company that's not doing that great, I was like, the numbers weren't making sense to me. And I will never claim to know that at that time I knew what the numbers were. I still struggle, but I'm like, OK, I don't know if this is making sense to me anymore. So at the end of the day, the number would have been huge. I get the offer. I was like, I can do this. I can push through. But they wanted the majority share. And so I struggled. But I said, this is stupid. How could I possibly turn this down? How much would you make? Over $100 million. Wow. Yeah. That's a pretty hard offer to say no to. Oh, it was. It was. Yeah. Why did you say no? Because of all of those things, all those factors. You know, I go a lot on gut and I just there were two major things. I wasn't ready to give up my baby yet. I wasn't ready to give up control. And I had read horror stories. About people giving up control. And I still felt like I had more time to give to this and to give it the old try. The worst thing, which is the craziest thing that I was upset about is I'm very close with my sister and brother. I now have young nieces and nephews as and but we don't talk finances. But what I had talked to my husband about is I said, I want to take everybody to Disney World when I close this deal. deal. And this is when I still thought I was closing the deal. So for Christmas, I got my niece's luggage with Disney, and I was so excited to take 15 people to Disney World. And I was going to pay for it all because I was going to have a boatload of cash, right? So I'm like, this is awesome. And I decided after Christmas and in the early part of the new year to not do the deal. And that sent me into a spiral. And I'm like, I can't afford to take them to Disney now. That was probably the second largest depression, and that one hit hard. That was, I was going to work every day. I was functioning. I was doing my work. I would go home. I don't think I showered in five days. I would literally just sit there and just say, what did I do? What did I do? And I couldn't get myself out of it. And probably about day three of that week stretch, I just said, well, maybe if I write down how I'm feeling, what's upsetting me the most? I just started writing, and I wrote 35,000 words in three or four days. And it started at early. It started at early days, and then it kind of came up to present day. I imagine writing that down helped a lot. It did because it helped me see how far I had come. Yeah. Did that help you get out of the funk quickly? Yeah, it definitely sped the process along. Yeah. You know, a couple of the good things that came out of the whole experience was there is value to what I'm doing. And that was a very difficult thing for me to really accept and take in and believe in, that I was doing something valuable, and somebody else was noticing it. But it's just, like I said, my mind never allowed me to go there. You know, the goal always in the beginning was to, you know, I wanted to be a millionaire. And then that kind of came and went also. And then you're like, then it becomes so much more than that, right? It's – If it was about the money only, I would have sold it, and I'd be sitting on a beach somewhere. Yeah. Like, you know, now I'm 50 – I'll be 57 years old. Like, what the hell am I doing? Like, I'm still at work every damn day doing all this stuff. So it becomes more about – Your identity and your life. Your identity, the people you work with, the story that you can tell. So, yeah, it's interesting. I really appreciate that. Insight, because I think that's right. You know, I know that there are forces, things that happen, and they're not explicable, right? Because not that long after this whole deal fell apart, I guess you get another call from somebody else interested in also doing some kind of deal. And I guess through a series of calls and connections, someone eventually puts you in touch with an investor, Andrew Rosen, who I guess is a pretty big deal. Right? But when you hear about him, you don't even know who he is. Yeah. And I look him up, and it's, you know, I see quotes like Godfather of Fashion, New York City. And I'm like, oh, I'm like, that's Andrew Rosen. Okay. He was involved in Rag and Bone and Calvin Klein. And so, anyway, we set up a call, and we have a great conversation. And Andrew's like, get her in touch with Hussein right away. And Hussein is another partner of theirs? He's involved in everything, kind of like Andrew's… Consigliere, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he just, he knows about all the brands, knows all the players. All right. So, he calls, and he started, okay. He calls, and Hussein and I hit it off immediately. You know, I consider him family now. And, you know, it was, we had a follow-up meeting, and that was with Andrew and Lou Frankfurt. Right. I had to look up Lou Frankfurt, too, because I didn't know where he hailed from. But, you know, he's the, basically, the godfather of Coach, you know. I mean, he didn't… He turned Coach, I think, from a $5 million company to a multi-billion dollar brand. Right. Right. Yeah. So, we started the process, and we did due diligence for probably the greater part of 23. And at the end of 2023, we had five people and some warehouse workers. None of us had any experience in what we were doing. And we closed 2023 at $50 million. Wow. Unbelievable. It was insane. We ended up closing the deal with the group. I think they bought a 40% stake. Yeah, a 40% stake. So, I maintained control, which was, you know, the issue with the other deal. And, you know, we started the ball rolling. And, you know, I moved six times in five years. Wow. Because each warehouse needed to be bigger. More and more, yeah. More and more space. And, yeah. It's amazing. And so, when they bought a 40% stake, I imagine that was really the first time. At that point, you're, you know, in your 50s, right? You're 52, 53. I imagine you were able to take some money off the table. And at that point, you, for the first time in your life, were truly financially secure. Yeah. That is the first time that I was truly financially secure. But more importantly, you own 60% of a company that's worth a lot more money than it was before 2023, for sure. Correct. And that is a different place to be in life, for sure. From where you started. From where I started. Yeah, 100%. No, I have zero regrets on anything. Better than waiting tables. For sure. But if all else fails, I can always go back. Yeah. So. So, with this new partner, when you did the deal with them, I think you had like five or six employees, right? Mm-hmm. This is 2023. So, this is not that long ago. And I read that you now have close to 100 employees. Is that right? Yes. So, that's a huge shift in, you know, and obviously, you know, your sales are much higher. You're now over, well over $100 million in sales. Mm-hmm. What is it like to go from managing 40% of a company to 100% of a company? Four people. You and four people to you and 99 people within two years. It's a lot. It was probably, so, how many, how many depressions did I give you? Two. So, let's, let's say the third was, you know, now you're hiring people with titles that you've never heard of before. And they're coming from brands that are way bigger than your brands. And you're trying to fill all these roles. And there's different personalities and different types of working. So, it's a very difficult thing. It actually caused me to shut down a little bit in probably in the first year because… Because you're getting people with deep experience in the industry who may have worked in some of the, right, the biggest names and… Biggest names. …their coming corporate offices and they have a playbook and they've been successful. And you did not come from that world. No. I didn't come from that world at all. So, it was very, you know, I don't know if intimidating is the right word. It definitely played a role, but it was more like, hey, I guess I just have to let people do what they do. Because who am I to correct them when they're already successful in this area, right? Yeah. You know, who am I to tell you how to do it when you've been doing it all of this time? And I had to gain that confidence back and said, no, you've been doing it too. You just may be doing it in a different way. And then there's gaining even more confidence and saying, no, no, no, no, no. This is the way this needs to be done. I don't care how it worked at X, Y, and Z. This is the way we need to do it for Bogbag. So, tell me what you want this to be. I mean, it's a… Yeah. It's a… It's a… It's a… It's a much bigger brand than it ever has been. Do you imagine it being a billion-dollar-a-year brand or more? I mean, what are the ambitions? I believe it'll be a billion-dollar brand. That is the goal. You know, I'll continue to work until that's done. And just, you know, personally, what I want for Bogbag is I want it to be a legacy. I want it to be something that, you know, my kids and their kids and… their kids talk about and say that, you know, this was part of our family. Kim, when you think about the journey you took, you know, it's… What I really love about this story is it's not an overnight success story. This is a long, step-by-step, methodical, up-and-down, and at one point you abandoned it, story. It's a get-rich-slow story. Yeah. Which I… Yeah. Yeah. I think are the best stories, but, When you think about where you started, you know, you dropped out of high school, right? You know, a lot of people would have written you off. And look how far and what you built, right? And when you think about that, how much of it do you think happened because of all the work that you put in? And how much do you think had to do with moments of serendipity and luck? Serendipity, yes. Luck, I don't – it's hard to say. I don't like to lose. I don't like to fail. And I wanted to be able to, since an early age, you know, call the shots. And I was – I mean, I've gotten so much better. I was a massive control freak. Like everything had to be done a certain way and it had to be done fast. And maybe it was the environments that I worked in that made me that way. I don't know. But it's – there's a lot of intervention, luck. Love. I don't know what to attribute it all to. It can't just be, you know, one thing. That's Kim Vaccarella, founder and CEO of Bogbag. By the way, Kim may seem like the kind of founder who would have been perfect for Shark Tank, but she never made it on the show, even though she applied like four times. And if you want to see what her audition looked like, you can still find – Part of it on YouTube. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode. And as always, it's free. And if you're interested in insights, ideas, and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs, please do sign up for my newsletter at GuyRoz.com or on Substack. This episode was produced by J.C. Howard with music composed by Ramtin Araglui. It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Sam Paulson. Our audio engineer was Jimmy Keeley. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Chris Massini, Alex Chung, Carrie Thompson, Carla Estevez, Catherine Seifer, John Isabella, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Roz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.