Ready, set, go! This is episode 461 with former semi pro hockey player, the founder of the balanced runner and running form expert Paul McKinnon. Welcome to the Strength Running Podcast. I'm coach Jason Fitzgerald and I want to help you become a better runner. Don't miss StrengthRunning.com, our home base where you can find training programs, our award-winning content library and our free email courses. Now I've got a big weekend coming up for myself. I'm going to be back at Connecticut College for my 20 year reunion. This is where I ran cross country and track. And so many of my former teammates are also going to be there. I just can't wait to run in the old trails that we used to get on every day, see my old running buddies and just be in the environment where I learned so much about the sport. And I think it's just such a good reminder that if you have the chance to go all in with running, you should take it. I think the more all in you can go, the better memories that you're going to make. So if you have the chance to join a team, to commit, to go all in, to take a chance on yourself, I highly recommend it. Now I couldn't do this podcast without the help of our partners. If you get value from the show, you can support us by supporting our sponsors. We are supported by BoulderThon, one of the top 10 races in America according to USA Today and one of the best fall marathons according to Runners World. They have a 5K, a 10K, half marathon and marathon. And they offer an amazing fall destination race weekend right at the foothills of the Rockies. This code strength 20 for $20 off the marathon or half marathon at bolderthon.org. So join me in Boulder, one of the top running destinations in the country this fall on September 27th. You'll experience the tight net running community here, race on the epic streets of Boulder, Colorado, and finish on historic Pearl Street. You're going to love one of the country's epic centers of running. And there will probably be cool and crisp fall weather for racing fast in late September. And don't worry, BoulderThon is a BQ eligible USA track and field sanctioned event. We do things right here in Colorado. Now BoulderThon is on track to sell out again this year, so don't miss out. This race is popular for a reason. Use code strength 20 to save $20 on the marathon or half marathon at bolderthon.org. And I hope to see you on Boulder this fall, a big thanks to elements for their support of this episode. Element is a high sodium no sugar, no artificial ingredient and no artificial color electrolyte supplement that I use all the time. They're offering a free gift with your purchase at drink LMNT dot com slash strength running. And this does not have to be your first purchase. You'll get a sample pack with every flavor. So you can try them all before deciding what you like best. And double big news. Their newest flavor lemonade salt is now permanently available and this has now become my favorite flavor. They're also offering 12 ounce cans of sparkling element water that has half the sodium of a typical packet. So whether you're fueling during a run or you're enjoying a sparkling beverage post run, element has you covered. Now elements products have some of the highest sodium concentrations that you can find at a thousand milligrams per packet. Anybody who runs a lot or has a high sweat rate knows that sodium as well as other electrolytes like magnesium and potassium are essential to our performance and how we feel throughout the day. Element is my favorite way to hydrate and I'm in the habit of giving away just boxes of element at group runs around Denver and Boulder and everyone loves this stuff. Your performance and your recovery with element. They're the exclusive hydration partner to team USA weightlifting and quite a few professional baseball hockey and basketball teams are on regular subscriptions. Check them out at drinklmt.com/strengthrunning and you'll get that free sample pack and get your hydration optimized for your upcoming season. Today's guest is Paul McKinnon, a former semi pro hockey player who has become an expert on gate retraining. Paul is from Melbourne, Australia and has worked with many high level athletes over the years to improve their running form. This episode is actually a repost from a conversation we had a few years ago. Paul's advice is evergreen and this topic is really important so I want to make sure you're heard from him. We talk about so many issues from Paul's top down approach to thinking about form and technique to three of the most common problem areas for runners, how your arms create lift, the impact of shoes on your form, form cues, body awareness and a lot more. You can also download a cheat sheet of my favorite form cues and when and how to execute them at strengthrunning.com/cues. Without further delay, please enjoy my conversation with Paul McKinnon. All right, it's good to be with you Paul. Thanks for making the time. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. Yeah, I'm excited. We were put in touch by Peter Bromke. He's a former competitor of mine when we were both in college and I've had him as a guest on the podcast. I looked this up, episodes 95, 195, and episode 216. So he's been almost a regular on the show for his insights on the marathon and especially the Boston marathon because he's run it so many times. Again, this weekend. That's right. Right. This will come out after he's run the Boston marathon. So hopefully he's had a wonderful performance and you've been helping him recently with his form helping him become more economical before he runs the Boston marathon. So yeah, I would love to start Paul with your approach to evaluating running form. You know, when you start working with a runner, what are you first looking at? Is that like first thing that goes through your head when you start seeing either video of someone running or someone in person? So the first thing I look at is top down. So what are they doing with, um, as a shoulder, it's really so to understand how they are being going to influence down through into the torso and into the leg. So my, um, my method is, is what I would call top down, but it is probably more of a bit like middle out and the middle out being torso trying to make sure or trying to get that in the best position, um, trying to get it as still as possible. Um, and to do that, you have to work on arms first. So that's why it becomes a little bit more of the top down and starting with the arms. From there, like changing that, you start to put in, if you get the movements in the right place and the right angle for that individual, um, and make the changes, then that influences the torso, but then we can change the shape depending on how they hold their body and from then, even though all those things are going to influence what, what the individual is doing with their legs, and you can actually start to focus a little bit more on, um, leg patterning, um, how, where the sequence of movements, uh, and then yeah, that's, that's where I start with and that's kind of the process of how it goes down. What are some of the bigger red flags that you see more consistently among runners? You know, there are some things that as soon as someone start running, you know, maybe two or three big issues right off the bat that you can notice just with the naked eye. Um, I'd say the three, the most common, or the things that I'd see, queringly is firstly like an arm swing that is, is throwing the body out of shape and creating rotational movements or sideways forces or restrictions on movement. We're going to think like the arms are the counter-movers to the leg. So a restriction of movement there is going to be a restriction of movement in the legs, and that's not what we want when we're trying to get a nice open, um, free flowing part in the movement I'll believe. Uh, the next would be a torso position and unfortunately, this part is coached, I think or as taught, and, and, um, wrong could tell me the same thing, but you would have taught being taught the same thing about, you know, get your chest out and, you know, feel, so you can feel the lungs with air, so you can run tall and have that position. For that thoracic extension, what it does is actually limits one capacity, a change is your center of mass and it changes the range of motion that you can get through, like a famous swing in that upper leg. So that'd be the most common to see people who are extended or arched through the middle of the back. And then the last one being the upper body we talk about being the counter-mover, but it's also a coordinated pattern of movement between the upper body and the lower half of the body. Now we think about this two parts of the leg that that can be coordinated, irrespective of the arms swing, that can be perfect, that can be not so perfect, but it has to pattern into one part of the two parts of the leg. So if it's not patterned into the top part of the leg, we pattern into bottom part of the leg, which creates that over stride and creates a bigger movement, it's a longer leg movement rather than upper leg dominant or primary dominant movement. So they're probably the three real major things that I see, but even with you and then there's going to be so many discrete movements, patterns and positions, that sort of starts to get a lot more complicated. Yeah, for sure. This is such a complicated movement. Now I've always been taught Paul that the arms are sort of like the counterweight to what the legs are doing and you should really focus on the legs.
first and then the position or movement of the arms will follow and it seems like you have the opposite approach and I'd love to explore that a little bit more. Yeah, complete opposite. I think if you're trying to create, you know, like a famous swing in a range of motion, we want to have in that upper leg. If you continually holding your arms down, so, you know, I don't want to use bronchers an example, but we will because it's because we brought him up a couple of times and there's a message he sent to me not long after because how does anyone let me just have my arms hanging so low when I run. He's been trying to change his leg pattern, his movement and increase a range of motion. That doesn't influence arms because it's the legs and the ground. So everything in between it can start to influence but not above. So what we want to start to think about is from top all the way down relates or creates or affects the relationship between you and the ground. So we can't sort of start the middle and then expect the top and the bottom to be changing. We're actually going to go the other way. So it would be arms if we're thinking about him being a counter in your words, wait, that's a more counter movement. They're not countering the weight. It's actually much more of a movement, a time, a timing, but also something as simple as lift. So when we're running, we're trying to create this flight and float and bounce and spend as much timing there as possible and as little time on the ground as possible. And obviously that's going to be varied in regards to like the pace as we're running. So we're not just trying to bounce, but there's going to be a range where you want to be closer to that end rather than on the ground ball than in the air. Now to create lift you need upwards forces. So if your movements or if your hands are down around your pocket, so your hips, where you're creating a downward force rather than an upward swing, it doesn't assist with creating that lift. So you can actually create movements to take away from the ability to get that pop off the ground or that flight off the ground if your arm movements and then sometimes if your shoulder movements are creating flatter or down movements or sideways movements. So they have quite a few roles. What they don't do is create power. Like your arms aren't touching the ground, so you can't create any power through them. But what they can do is tell the legs to increase their range of motion or do that increase to range of motion faster. So more times. So you kind of set the tempo and set the movement from that upper body and then you can actually follow on. Now if it doesn't directly follow down the legs, what you can do is tap back into the arms if they are working correctly. Is this similar to like when an endurance runner tries to sprint and I'm remembering back to my college days here where we tried to emulate the sprinters and we tried to have this much more exaggerated arm carriage than we normally would just because it helped with like I made that mistake of saying counterweight earlier. It's really a counter movement and you're creating this big movement in the top half of your body and it's almost like your legs have to respond to that. Is it my thinking about this in a slightly correct way? Yeah, yeah. So the other thing that I'd say though if we start to go back into like we're talking about kicking out a little bit. I kind of get a little bit about you know, physics and levers and that sort of stuff because it directly correlates to it. Some of the things that I'll see within within sprinters I think sometimes the arms are even too big for sprinting you know like if it's a big open angle at the elbow that means the lever is bigger which means you have to work harder to go through your range of motion to a rest movement come back in such a rate of knots. Now I wouldn't say you want to come super super tight or even it's quite difficult because of that force it's being applied through the arm. However if you can keep quite a shorter lever you can go through that same range of motion you can do it quicker and without as much effort. So there's probably a little bit of a a coming together I think even in some case some of the sprinters are too big but what you're saying is yeah big range of motion but then it actually ties into more about like what it feels like to you. So you feel like arm applying all this force I'm doing this really big movement. This is you know I'm feeling fast. When we actually can actually pair it back a little bit and doesn't want to have to feel such a big effort and a big fast movement because you still want to feel relaxed at high pace. So there's got to be like again coming back to that there's got to be kind of a sweet splitting between the two but yeah you correct by thinking that range of motion or that bigger range of motion is a good way for maybe for a distance around it to exaggerate that movement so they can go oh okay I want this big explosive open partner movement. I am now really fascinated with my arm swing and I don't think my arm swing is very good Paul and maybe we can use myself as a case study right now so I believe my arm swing can be a little bit crossing the midline I do carry my arms fairly low. If you were to look at me my elbows might be a little bit too far out to the side just because I'm kind of you know increasing my you know space across the side of me like that and you know have you seen this pattern among other runners and in what might it tell you about my running form if that's the only thing that you know um we could do a couple of things so it might mean that you as an individual without seeing you run you might restrict the movement because you I'd say you know you don't want to come across that midline and I think I want to stop that movement a little bit but it's going to be like a little bit more of a shorter movement so straight away it could restrict the range of motion that you can get through your legs but I couldn't tell you if I didn't see below the hips I couldn't tell you what pattern the movement you are making in regards to upper level lower leg dominant and therefore where you are straight from the ground or the time you're spending on the ground I could tell you if it would be a little bit more one-sided like right side dominant left side dominant because you can see some rhythms and movements and you might rotate a little bit further on one side than the other um what I would know that if you're doing that real flat side wave movement you're not getting as much lift off the ground as what you could be so you're either spending longer on the ground or you're working harder through the legs to create that pot I think that the easiest way I explain it to to my athletes is like if we use that that force direction in an example of jumping if we throw our arms up in the air to create a vertical force it allows us to either jump higher or to jump without as much effort energy required through the legs to get off the ground when we're thinking about running we want the less effort per step it's not so much the actual height it's making it easier to get off the ground each time so it's about this movement comes up but if you've got that sideways movement you either have to work harder or you don't quite get off the ground as much yeah that really helps me crystallize this concept in my head because you know I've done a max vertical jump in the past and yeah you have this very exaggerated huge upwards swing with your arms because it really helps you kind of like open up your body and create that counter movement like we've mentioned before and now that I'm thinking about it why wouldn't we want a similar phenomenon when we're out there running you know it's not we're not going for max vertical height but we are going for inefficient you know hop from one leg to the other that you know does have some vertical movement to it yeah and if we if we then add so if you've got two arms which are smaller levers this smaller masses in particular with distance runners there's not the most mass going through arms but then if you actually time it right if it's the correct movement and you have that you know knee drive but it's much more like a famous swing and it's the forward portion of that famous swing now all of a sudden the three limbs that aren't on the ground are actually assisting that one limb that is on the ground by three of them actually swinging up and slightly forward it is drawing that you know torso the whole center of mass off the ground to allow that leg to extend a little bit easier a little bit better to create that pop and what you're really trying to do is trying to make the easiest job possible for that leg on the ground to get you off the ground I want to ask you another question where I think you might be blowing my mind in another area of running form you know I think the conventional wisdom in this area says that there are some runners who shouldn't try to change their form you know like let's go back to Peter Bromke he's been running for you know 25 years probably if not more he's a very accomplished runner and there would be a lot of coaches who would say let's not fix what ain't broken right now this guy is successful he's obviously has longevity in the sport but it seems like what I'm hearing is that there's always something that you can improve and just because you're either having success or your injury rate is very low doesn't mean that you should just automatically think that your running form is beyond reproach right so how do you think about this concept of you know some people just shouldn't work on their form I think there's a couple of answers to those couple of paths to the answer one being I think for too long people have relied on okay well don't don't change it unless it's broke because they're kind of coming from a safe place that they can make changes you know when the person is broken rather than actually everyone who is running is on some you know spectrum of some sort now they might be down the back end of that spectrum because they are broken or they're getting recurrent injuries but and if you get to that point where they're not in that area what they're doing is they're trying to improve performance like when you're going to improve the technique correctly I think that's another part of the the answer you are going to get a performance improvement now if that means you can run more because you're not getting injury you're not getting stressed in certain parts of the body that is going to be a performance improvement if you are fresh and injury free and then you get an improvement, then the improvement becomes even more of a propol.
outside of it. It's just depending on where you are starting on that spectrum. And we talk about, so we think about Bronco, like he's, you know, he's had his limitations through like hip range and always getting sore through that area or getting sore through kind of lower back. So he's been getting it, but he doesn't limit him per se in regards to time off. If you can open that up and change it, then you can actually allow him to get through his sessions or get through his, you know, marathon blocks without having that same consistent you know, wear pattern or stress loads in the body. The other part to it is a, I think for a long period of time because it has been, you know, feet and legs first, it's understandable why I think running technique hasn't always been like the first place or first port of call for change. But I personally think it's kind of low hanging through. It can actually be changed quite easily. It takes consistency and repetitiveness, like repetitive movement to create habit. However, if you teach it correctly, because it is the body and the ground, if it is a, if it is a genuine improvement on that technique, it should feel better to the athlete, not just all that, you know, that's the way to do it. That's good. You keep doing that and you'll find improvement. You should have a real proper set of awareness. If it's talk correctly, like this is what it feels like to do your old way. This is what it feels like to do it with the new Q. Now what does it feel like to you? So for me, I don't actually tell them it's better. I ask them what feels. So for, you know, again, we use your bronchi. It's like, "Oh, I don't know if you can swear on it. I normally swear quite a lot." So, Randy didn't quite a lot. We'll find what it is. Oh, for Boston. Okay, cool. I do normally swear quite a lot. So that's, that's handy, you know. He was like, "Holy shit, like I've got range through my feme." It's like I'm not feeling tight enough. I'm actually getting off the ground. We changed something for him through his shoulders and his arms swing. We kind of, I kind of dovetail two different things together. But everything he felt was hip, feet, ground contact time and how that actually related to the ground. So, once you actually asked them, it's like, "Okay, now what is it doing?" So, run new A out and think about, "Clean a swing, me lift, come mold right back. Tell me what is the difference." So they're having direct comparisons internally. So coming back to your original question, I think if it is a genuine improvement in that person, they will be able to feel it. Because they can feel it, they're more likely to do it. Because like anything, you're like, "Chef, like of course I want to do it, it feels better, feels lighter, feels freer." My last almost counter question would be why is running the only movement, almost known to humans, that is not an art, don't fix it unless it's broken. Every other movement nodes a man. From, Tiger Woods still gets golf lessons. We've got swimmers who are elite swimmers who are getting technique, form changes all the time and making sure that they're always just coming in, brought back into light. Kibjog, he thinks about form through his whole 42.2 km. It's like he's continually thinking, "What do I need to do? What I don't make sure that I'm doing?" So I can repeat this movement over and over again. To think that this is the only movement that shouldn't be changed, I like you just think, "Wow, how is that possible?" I just think it hasn't been done correctly for a while. Yeah, that's really interesting to think about. And I'm really glad that you brought up this idea of the fact that it should actually feel better. You should be feeling better if we're improving your form. And I think that's the key piece that's been missing in a lot of discussions around improving running technique over the last few decades. Because everyone is frequently saying, "People have different body types and we can't really talk about an optimal type of form because some people have long legs, short legs, long arms, and everything in between." And often that can really present some struggles when you're trying to give some general running form advice. But I think just this idea that, "Hey, if this is a good fix for you, you're going to feel better when you're out there running," which is the most basic and fundamental aspect to all of this. If we're going to change your form, you should feel better. It should, because I mean, it should feel like an improvement. And it feels better. Again, I said you're more likely to want to repeat it. So it does become how it. It's very rare that you have just the body and then your environment that you can actually work off. So with running it is literally just you and the ground. However you move and you position yourself and how that whole thing comes together will directly relate to how you or the relationship you have with that ground. So if there isn't improved, that relationship should slightly change or the movement within the body should feel like an improvement from that change. Now the other one that could be similar leagues described like that is like swimming because there's the body and water. So once you actually change or make an improvement for that individual, I don't know a lot about swimming. I'm not a great swimmer. But I know someone who does very similar to what I do here in Melbourne and he says the same he as a soon as you actually create a positive change from a cube, that person will feel better in the water. It will be directly correlated in times or or effort, but they will feel better moving through the water because it's just the body and the water. Now it is different to a skill acquisition to likely use golf. You have a club, you have a ball, you have an environment that's just changing whether you're in the sand, depending on how good you are in the rough on the ground. You know, what you're doing, the club length changes. So there are variability through that. Now if you don't directly hit the ball in a sweet spot and hit it down straight, although you have a good better swim, it's easy to think you can't directly correlate my improvements to what's just happened. The repetitive nature, if you get better and better at it because there are certain fourth parties and the fifth party being the environment is different. Running, it's you and the ground. So I'll come back to it if you do have that improvement. If you do improve the right things or change the right things to create an improvement, you can actually get the individual athlete to feel what those improvements are. Thanks again to Boulder Thon for supporting the show. They're offering a $20 discount off the marathon or half marathon with code
[email protected]. Now you can register for a 5K, a 10K, half marathon or marathon for September 27th in epic Boulder, Colorado. Come run in one of the most beautiful locations in the US, ranked one of the best races in the US. Now it's on track to sell out again this year. So be sure to use code strength20 today to save $20 on your registration for the marathon or half marathon at BoulderThon.org. I hope to see you there. Hey, a quick break to thank our partner element for their support. You should check them out. Element is my favorite way to hydrate. They make a delicious sugar-free, high sodium electrolyte that's perfect for runners with a high sweat rate or very salty sweat like I have. Now if that's you, you're going to want all 1,000 milligrams of sodium that's included in element. Electrolites play a key role in helping you avoid dehydration, dizziness, cramps, and overall tiredness, especially after long runs or workouts. An element is used by the military, law enforcement, professional sports teams, and they're the official hydration partner of team USA weightlifting. Get a free sample pack with any purchase at drinklmt.com/strengthrunning. And they'll let you try every flavor before you decide what you like best. That's drinklmt.com/strengthrunning for your free sample pack. You've said that there are two variables when it comes to form you and the ground. Dishoos come into play here at all because I understand that your mechanics are going to change slightly based on the type of footwear that you're wearing. And there's obviously those very big maximal issues with a very high stack height. And then you can get into some more traditional track spikes which are just completely different. Do you think about shoes as another factor that's changing your form? They do. And obviously more recently they change the relationship with the ground. I don't think they change your form. Nothing. You can't put a pair of shoes on. I'm going to change your arm swing. So that's not going to directly correlate it what it might do. And depending on how that individual moves, it might get them forward and off the ground sooner. So it might make that person increase their cadence. It might give them a little bit more spring off the ground. It can change those relationships for sure. But if they are a low leg dominant movement, if they're overstriving, it's not going to change them into an upper leg dominant movement and landing closer to their center of mass. But it will do every change how they relate to the ground. Yes. But the mechanics know. And this is difference between an economy and efficiency. So it might improve or help economy. So if we use the vapor flyer studies about there's an improvement of the 4%. But that's an average. So when they did their testing, they had improvements from 2% all the way up to I think it was 7% depending on the individual. Now what they found was the people that got the most. So the 4% to 7% are the ones that actually move really well. We'd good into buying a candy. It's a good body position. So they actually get more out of the shoe. The better that you move by mechanically. Now you still get an improvement in economy from the shoe if you are overstriving or if you're spending a lot more time on the ground than what you want to compare to the flyer time. But nowhere near as much as the top end. So it can improve your economy and you get more improvement in economy but it doesn't change your efficiency.
and efficiency is more about how you do that movement, whereas economy is how much it costs you, in the energy sense or oxygen sense. - This is making me think that runners should probably spend $300 on a form evaluation with some cues and technique fixes before you spend the $300 on a fancy pair of shoes. - So, this is the guy. There's a guy called Chris Corquiz, like a senior foot developer at Nike, and he does a lot of the way for fly-offer fly design. So, he's the guy. And he came across me once, what was it about, three years ago now, because he wanted to do some form stuff. He's very, very intelligent and very inquisitive just about how to get more improvements. And it was on the back of this whole two to seven percent change. It's like, okay, well, we've got these athletes who are moving well already. How can we actually bring somewhere other athletes who are just generally individuals actually getting closer to that seven percent because of movement patterns? So, he went and saw a few people, I'm pretty sure, and then he did a session with me online, a FaceTime. And in the very first session, what I'll do is, like, I'll get the person, and do the proprioception awareness and getting him feeling what they're currently doing, so they know what it feels like to do there, all right? Teaching the cue. I got him comfortable with the cue and then compared the new Averse the old way. And what I did, and what I'd do in all my sessions, is it's over like a 40 meter, 50 yard kind of length, and I'll get him to run out doing their new A and I'll get him to run back doing that old way. And I'll count steps. So, it's just got into this, I'll always just count steps over and over and over. And for him, it was like 44 steps, old way, and 40 steps, new A. So, there's a four step difference in how much, or how many steps it took him to get from A to B, and then B back to A. So, there's a 10% difference. And I said to him, I never thought I'd be telling the guy who makes the 4% that I just got him 10%. You like to shit? Yeah, like it's genuinely like how much you can actually get. Like from real low hanging fruit, then it just becomes less and less and less is still like how much you can get out of it, but there's still improvements. And this is a lot that can be proven from a lot of improvement that can be got from technique for a lot of individuals, or you're thinking about like higher end people, like people like a work with gallon wrap, and Brent Robinson and Emily Info, like they're trying to get micro improvements. So, they're trying to bring themselves back into a position that they're actually moving really, really well again. So, that becomes, you know, small benefits, but still for them, they're big benefits. Yeah, I really think that this is the next frontier in improving performances, precisely because so few athletes have really gone down in this road and had their form evaluated by a professional and really tried to work on their technique. I think they're, like you said, there's a lot of low hanging fruit here. One thing that you said earlier that I'd love to highlight, you mentioned, you know, how it's easier to learn these habits when you're first starting to run. Can you talk about the differences that you might have to incorporate with working with say a new runner versus a runner with, you know, a quarter of a century of experience? I think there's a few different things to it. So, someone who's, say like yourself, who's run lifetime runner has got many, many miles under their legs. It's not just about the habit that you are creating. It's also about trying to make sure that we do it in such a manner that it is a safe environment. To go small change, by small change, by small change. So, you can actually adapt and adopt over time until we get to this point. And you can see your point from A down to like end point, being quite a significant change in some cases, but we've taken the gradual process. Now, if you think about a lot of the things or a lot of the changes that are normally thought about, you know, the first one, and we haven't mentioned it for a reason, is footstrike. That's normally the first port of chords, like, "Oh, well, you know, overstriving your footstrike." So, you change footstrike. There's a reason why that person is overstriving and then landing in that manner. And not changing that, or sorry, by changing that, is not changing the mechanics that create that. So, what you're trying to do is put this square peg into a round hole, like, okay, land here, get closer to the center of mass. So, there's a reason why that person's doing it in the first place. And by doing that change, A is not going to stick, B, it's going to cause a lot of stress on different parts of the lower leg. I think it's like 90 to 95% injury rate for someone who changes or focus on a footstrike pattern change. Because you're just loading completely different areas with the same type of movements. You're just adding a lever, you're breaking force, and you're putting it in a different area, that's just not conditioned. So, the gradual process, and again, of that kind of the top down, it's like, we've small change, which will change down the bottom. Small change, will change down the bottom. Small change, until you get to the point where you can actually make that change. For someone who is just starting, I don't have any of that. So, they have zero conditioning and zero parts of their body and zero in zero amount. So, you can go, okay, we could actually probably make quite a significant change. And because if you're going to safely build up your training load, we can start off with one minute job, four minutes walk, and you do that for 30 minutes. So, that person might do six minutes jogging, but they're doing it in quite a different manner in what they would, but they're kind of building together with their movement and their training load. 'Cause you've got to think, I always think about training loads or load being two pillars. One pillar being, you know, what you do weekly, whether the mileage, the intensity, the frequency of it, the other load being how you take each step. Now, we can actually manage both of those loads. More often than not, the only load that has really managed is, you know, how much, how frequent, how fast. And it's like, oh, we're starting to get a bit of an injury, or we know, we'll back off first, but we can actually change this one as well. We might have to back off both, or we might be able to change and kind of manage and manipulate those two different loads. You might not have to back off so much if we're actually changing where that stress point is as a result of your repetitive movement patterns. - That's really interesting. And to me, it reminds me very much of, you know, in the weightlifting world, there's a strategy called reps to technical failure. And so you're lifting weights, and you don't lift a failure, you don't lift until you've done a certain number of reps. You lift until you can't do it with perfect form anymore. And so it sounds like you're doing this with running with some of these newer athletes, where, you know, they're only running for a very short period of time. They're including walk breaks afterward, but the time period where they're actually running, they are running, you know, quote unquote perfectly, or as perfectly as they can. And there's that really important learning process that goes along with it that I think can be quite powerful. - There's a fair few, there's a lot of coaching that's around the place now. So I think which is really positive. Some may not be overly positive, but at least there is some really great coaching available for athletes in regards to, if they're just starting or if they're trying to do their marathon. There's a couple of really good ones around here that I work with or I refer to. And I'll spoke into a few of them about similar things. It's like, we give athletes, like a training program, training structure, and maybe they've got repeat efforts, sort of got like a monofart, like whatever it is about, you know, efforts. And say they've got 400s, and they've got a specific time, but they're supposed to meet. And normally we think if they're not quite making that time, you know, a good coach will just go, okay, they'll just stop, like you got to your eighth, you can see like you're not quite getting, or you just missed out by a second or so, like you're done. However, what I'd see is up until like, rep six, and the form goes out of the window, and it's just trying to hold onto the pace. And then for six and seven, they might hold the pace. So that's okay, and training, and they're scheduling. But now what they're doing is they're practicing, just getting through rather than, no, okay, well, you've got to rep six with really great forms. Seven started, you know, started to fail a little bit. That's the time you're done. And that might be just because you've fatigued, might be didn't sleeve, you know, might be dehydrated, might be just used, can't hold it for that long. The next day or the next week, you might be able to get to eight with really good form. Cool, done. So it's not time-based. It's actually form-based. And conversely, they might be able to get to eight, and they're still holding really good form, but they're starting to drop off on pace. Same thing, okay. You can't hold the good pace and the form. So that's kind of done. So actually using that reps to technical failure is a really good way. I hadn't heard it put that way. I hadn't heard like that to a real method within, you know, powerlifting, but it is a really great way to put it. So it's not just about fatigue or time failure, it's technical failure too. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's especially important for, you know, very competitive runners, where they're doing potentially longer, very challenging reps, where, you know, if your form is not pretty good for, you know, a thousand meter or a mile repetition, and you're really trying to power through that, you could potentially do some real damage. And I think this strategy is likely more helpful for the injury prone athlete who can't really power through, you know, maybe the last rep, you know, for someone who like never gets injured, I might be a little bit more flexible there, but I think that's a really helpful way of thinking about running workouts, sort of as an aside for our listeners here, if you are very injury prone, you know, this might be a really a nice way of thinking about when to cut a workout. Paul had left to move on a little bit to cute.
I love cues. I've used cues for a very long time in my coaching practice. I know you do too. In your mind, how do you define a form cue or a running cue? A specific movement or position for the athlete to hold that will improve or create change within that athlete. So that cue doesn't always have to be a movement-based one. It can be actually that position. So it's like a static position. But it's a static position in comparison to the one that they are holding. Now that position will create different stress points. So you'll need to load differently. So you can actually utilize that awareness or that contrasting method or model between new A.L. Ray for the athlete to feel it. You know, like yes, there are external cues and internal cues. But thinking more about how to actually create it within that individual, just to create just a contrasting feel rather than thinking about it in an external internal. How do you use form cues in your practice? Are there any ways in which that you really like to give runners form cues or even other ways in which runners shouldn't use form cues in their training? Well, and it can be anything because each individual, I'm from a teaching background originally. So I did physical education teaching with sports arts by mechanics as one minor. And you start to realize that each individual have different learning styles, different learning techniques and even just the language that they use will determine what language you can use in return. So whether it be in a visual kinesthetic, whatever it is that that person probably relates to best, you start to use them. Now I'm trying to use everything within the toolbox just to try and make sure that they are aware of what they're supposed to do. So in some cases it will do be like if it is in person, it might be with permission of course, like directly actually moving them in a manner to get them to feel which range, what line, what direction or actually trying to create change through it. Yes, also showing so they get a visual and then feeling the difference between them and sometimes even recording them to say, okay, look at this, you're doing it, but you could actually do it more because so much of perception versus reality is so off. That if there is a change, it often feels so exaggerated for that person until they see it and go, oh, geez, that looks normal. Or that actually doesn't look like I'm doing much. Yeah, you can actually go further. Oh, shit. So that person can actually utilize what they are doing in a visual sense to then create even more change. But again, going back to it, using anything possible to make sure that they're actually going to get that change rather than this is the only way it could be done. It's like, okay, well, how else can I think about it? It might be explaining it in a completely different manner for that individual or if they've got a different sporting background using that example, you know, trying to actually work out how to actually relate it back to their experiences or even even like a sometimes thinking about it and like how where they work. We're talking about like that whole top down for someone who comes and there's a weird one like from a corporate background is like using a corporate structure to be able to understand like how this each feeds into each other so they can actually get like a real direct correlation in their own mind about how that actually relates. So it's just using anything you can to make sure that they understand it so that they can then implement it. I love this idea of perception versus reality because I think every runner has had that experience of thinking like they look like Kipchogay when they're out there running and then someone takes a video or they see. You know, some race footage and they're like, oh my goodness, I do not look like Kipchogay and it can be a very, it can be a very humbling experience where you're brought back down to earth. And I think we shouldn't trust our perception of how we look when we're running because you know, it's not necessarily an accurate reflection of our real movements out there in the real world. And so I think this idea of just getting some video of yourself and using that for feedback is at least for me like that really resonates with me because I want I want as much objective feedback as I can. And I think the video is probably the most valuable type of feedback that we can have because it's, you know, the video is not going to lie. That's how you're moving. So I like their optimism that the individuals that think that they're moving like Kipchogay. It's always nice to hear like they optimistic about their movement patterns, which is really cool. As you said, the perception reality between the two are normally very, very, very different and the videoing themselves are often just recommend anyone who wants to get an understanding of what they're doing to record themselves. So they do have a little bit more of a better perception that the gap will be then, how do I change it? And it's more like, geez, like that doesn't look at all like where would I start, which is fine. And also the, I mean the online stuff that I've got is is very much set out. So I'll actually, you know, each video sets out to say, okay, record yourself, have a look what your arms are doing, you know, kind of explaining what to look at. And then going through all those cues in regards to like top down. So it's, you know, it's a little bit more generic than what it is. It's also to do one on one, whether it be on FaceTime or whether it be in person, but at least it gives them the process and it gives them an opportunity to actually get an understanding of what does that look like? What movements are being made, what position am I in when I'm being and when I'm running? And how does this all directly relate to each other? Because then it does give them that appropriate feedback. So I think we have maybe one, two, three near universal cues that most runners would likely benefit from that we could talk about here. You know, I know everyone's a unique end of one sort of case study on themselves, but, you know, from your experience working with a lot of different types of runners. What are some cues that most runners might benefit from? I think, I mean, we started with that arm swing like firstly actually getting that arm swing in the right position, moving in the correct line for the individual. So we want to think about each individual differences, like trying to say that everyone should swing their arms in a straight line, goes completely against the anatomy of each individual. So the glenahemerus joint, you know, the ball and socket joint, the socket portion does not sit at 90 degrees. So to create a 90 degrees, we actually have to retract scapulas to put ourselves in a position like you're doing now to create a straight line. Now what you're doing is you're stretching through the chest, you're putting tension in the shoulders, which is going to restrict movement. So we want to actually then start to try and find the correct line for each individual when they're in their neutral shoulder position and swing on that line. So that they're swinging on their joint angle with a movement that is allowing that lift. So you're already starting to create a lift movement or an up movement from that swing. Now if you swing too straight on the back swing, what you will do is you'll tighten up through scapulas. So you're actually thinking about how do I actually create a line or what line is my joint on so that I can actually swing without tightening up through that. Now if a sum that kind of thinks almost or contradicts what was definitely what a lot of people have coached about swinging a straight line, get everything going in this straight line. But it's our torso that we want in good position because this holds the majority of the mass. And by swinging on our joint angles, it allows this to be in good position and switched off. Because the other thing is you know, be relaxed through your shoulders. But if you're going to try and swing straight, there's no way you can actually be relaxed anymore. So it's trying to find the correct line for each individual and that's what I'd call like a running triangle. And each running triangle is slightly different and it's about trying to find it was and then trying to create the correct swing on that joint angle. And I'd suggest this thing about the amount of people who turn up with you know like I really, really good to perfect swing one in 50. It's that low. It's that low. I'm definitely in the 98% of it. And it's not that you know like there aren't it doesn't just go off to horrible. You know again, there's that range, but there's there's for the majority of individuals there is improvement to be had simply from actually getting a good swing. And it's how you hold what angle you hold that not only in the shoulder, but also what angle are you holding between lower arm and upper arm because the lower or the bigger. The lower the arm is or the bigger that angle is. So if we're thinking about you know run up 90 degrees. We've got to think about our center of mass is towards the wrist now. And so that lever becomes longer and it's hard to swing up or create lift with a longer lever. So the more open you are through that elbow angle, the harder it is to create that lifting movement and the more likely you are to restrict movement. And if you go the other way and you're actually super tight and what you're doing is you create intention at the other end. So again, we don't want to just be up here and hold it in just like tightness through here because we do want range of motion and swing. But what we're trying to do is create a shorter lever so that lever is easier to swing. Yeah, I definitely think I am the large elbow angle type of runner. I think I need to tighten that up a little bit as well as close it down. I know it's semantics like it's a words matter like tighten it up. You can actually get tight. So it's like close the angle in close closing the air. Yeah, because it can you know people get meaning.
It's tough words that they think is correct. So we've got to be really like the way I explained it to individuals like really clear and concise. So there's no room for wiggle room, but there's no room for play. Not that they have to be strict and structured and it's like no, you do it like this in a robotic form. It's just like don't give the individual an opportunity to kind of express themselves in some jazz movements. Like that's not what we want. We'll do it. We want some clean and clear movements within there. Within their parameters, because each individual is very different in limb length, a limb length, and then body position and history of exercise. I started doing some stuff with some crossfit athletes, so you can understand just a much bigger athlete in muscle bowl than what a runner is or what a triathlete is. Or into a lesser extent, say what some AFL, some Australian rules football players that I work with, you know, they're a little bit more bolt. Be thinking about a crossfit as a quite bolt. So you go, okay, well, you're going to be limited by some of that range of motion. We're working within their parameters. So it's not just do this, go through this range of motion, do it more. It's like, well, if they're into this big position and they're in that, and so much you've got to work within their framework. I'm also very encouraged by the fact that you're not super dogmatic about this. You know, you're not saying you should have this perfect arm, socket, swing, you know, that would sort of be impossible. But we're all unique. We all have different, slightly different angles that we prefer to carry our arms. And as long as you're working with your body, then you're probably doing something that is more productive for you as opposed to trying to fit yourself into this very small box of, you know, my arm has to move exactly in this angle. And like you said, that sort of goes against our anatomy, you know, that's hard to do. And then it's, I, it's hard to do and be it makes other things impossible to do that what we want to do. So like keep shoulders relaxed, keep, you know, traps switched off, keep your, for me, don't stretch through chest. I want you to stretch through chest. You can't stretch there anymore for breathing. So my whole thing of, you know, arms, back, shoulders, back, chest out so you can feel it with air. It limits capacity because you're already stretched where you're going to stretch. So all it will do is go down through diaphragm and all you've got is diaphragm breathing rather than actually being able to have a full complete breath, both sides, top and bottom. So once we actually change something that into is just structured straight, you're actually limiting what you can get down the chain. Paul, I have a lot to think about, about running form, about my own form, about how I've been thinking about technique over the years. I would love to ask you a couple rapid fire questions with maybe some shorter abbreviated answers. I'm not great at short answers. I'm sorry. I'll do my best. We're going to do the best we can. So these are some big topics within the world of running form. They're also issues that I know a lot of listeners are going to be interested in. We have not talked about cadence. Do you recommend a certain number of steps for this metric? How do you think about cadence? That I can do quickly and short. No. So cadence, the specific number, which I don't mention very often because I think it's pretty silly. Each individual is going to have a different range to go through from easy pace through to 400s. We're not going to have that magical number. It is going to be determined by leg length, mechanics, range of motion. So to tell someone to be at a specific number and that that's going to improve the mechanics for me, it's pretty dogmatic. So it's your word. It's like, oh, I just need to be at this number. You can have, so for example, so often, say like 170 would be a low number. But we could be the exact same height. You could be moving perfectly. So to look around contact, maximum flight, so to run at an easy pace, you don't need to take each steps. And it is a really good, efficient, safe movement. Now I could be running horribly. Big over stride, increased ground contact and braking force and have 170. We've both got the exact same number. So the number is just an output, much like pace. So for me, using cadence as a measure of change is as silly as using pace as a measure of button, the chemical change. Now what I would say though is if someone is having a really, really low cadence as a result of poor movement by telling someone to increase it, what they're doing is just saying just shorten down. It can decrease the amount of impact per step. And then therefore the ground contact, but what they're doing is they're doing their same movement more times. And what they would have to do is to restrict movement elsewhere and tighten up just to increase that cadence. So it's not a good manner to do it for a longevity. It might allow them to start get back into running or reduce impact per step, but there's a far better way to do it. It seems like it's a piece of the puzzle. It's one thing you're going to look at, but it's not one of the most important things. And like to think of where the number came from, it was like there's a study of 10 kilometer elite runners and they were racing each other and they're all running the same pace. And elite runners are all pretty similar height and stature. So it's no surprise that at pace that they were running with a similar cadence. Now to say that someone who's a, you know, another sort of intermediate runner doing their 40 minute easy run has to have the same number of cadence as those elite runners running at 10 K run. Like for me, it's like that that does not make sense. So to tell someone to do that, they're just going to try and fit again, square peg round hole and go, okay, I'm just going to try and hit 180. Now a lot of them will either run too fast or they're tightening up this stride and like, oh, that just feels kind of junk. It's really hard to do. And there's a reason for it because there's not the right way to do it. What about footstrike? I know you've mentioned it briefly. It's not really something that you focus on too much, but do you have any general guidelines on footstrike? Yeah. Look, it's a hard one because there is a footstrike that I think is best case scenario. Like we're using a spring loaded stretch short and cycle to create bounce and fly and fly. The only way to do that is to actually have a good mechanic, land mid foot, use that carfacilly is complex to actually as a rubber band to actually use that kind of catch and release feel. However, I think because it has been a focus, I really pull back on saying, that's the best case scenario, but it is the best case scenario as a result of the pattern of movement, the body position. And even something as simple as like you hear a lot of land underneath your hips. Or push, even though it's like push your hips forward so you can land underneath them. But what we want to try and do is have that we actually change our center of mass so it goes over top of feet rather than trying to pull our feet under center of mass. Once we actually get our center of mass or a body position in our movements over top of the feet, we are more likely to be in that landing and now there's no breaking force we can actually create that bouncing movement. If we take it to the extreme level and being a bit parochial here, this kangaroo, huge long tendons, the way that they actually cover the ground is with a bouncing mechanic because they've got that spring loaded movement. We don't have that same, but what we're trying to do is create an efficient bouncing movement from foot to foot to foot. And it is quite dynamic. And the only way or the best way we can do that is to utilize all those muscular tendons, bone structures in the foot, Achilles and other leg to actually kind of take and go. Yeah, this reminds me of 2010 when born to run, came out and then all of a sudden everyone wanted to change their foot strike to a four foot or mid foot strike. And it was a boon to bidiatrists everywhere because it just changed where the load was going and they might have started saving their knees, but they sure did have a lot of ankle and foot problems because of that. And what was even worse was in a minimal shoot. That was like, whatever. And they go, "I love this running idea. I am going to do it really, really differently, but I am going to do it with no protection. And I am going to do it a lot more than what I am used to." Sounds like a recipe for injuries, and I'm sure it was. Paul, what about the forward lean? Yeah. I mean, we do. Like we think about coming back to the physics side of things. We want to have our mass in front of our power. But the way we do it, if we think about the most common cues like lean from the ankles, the whole idea is shift our center of mass forward. So why not focus on our center of mass? Find the center of mass, which is different for different people in where or around in that torso and shift it forward. The reason being is once you start running, your point of focus being the ankles moves the most. So it is the most moving part in the running gate. But that's supposed to be your reference point. It's like, "How am I leaning from my ankles when they are actually spinning?" So you think about my mass is hips to shoulders, because everything else is moving parts, being arms and legs. So how can we actually am work? And we put our center of mass. And what does that feel like? And what does that look like as well, depending on the individual, to have that center of mass forward of hips and power? How do we do that? Is there a simple cue that we can internalize that will help us put our center of mass a little bit forward without kind of relying on that lean from the ankles of
I mean, my understanding is that's the best we have. You know, I'd rather do that than lean from the waist. Yeah, well, exactly. You don't hinge from the waist, but anyways, because your bum's going to go back. We think about running as being, you know, movement and counter movement, position and counter position. So if you're positions, if you counter positions even further off, and then you've got to kind of compensate for it, and then everything just starts to kind of compensate for it. Look, the short answer is, no, it's not a simple version, because if you are extending through your thoracic and arching and pushing the chest out, or even through lumber, just by thinking about a center of mass, isn't going to be a good fix until you change the shape into a nice neutral shape and stack it properly, and then you can actually change it. And normally, you get a better outcome from actually changing the shape of spine and thoracic, because then it actually changes that center of mass as an outcome. Then you can actually change the center of mass a little bit on top of that. So it's probably more about a shape of torso, rather than is about just kind of get your center of mass forward, because it is difficult if your spinal shape is off. It sounds like that one of your big feces about running form is that the torso is super important, and that's what your mass is. And if we can get that into the right position, a lot of other things tend to take care of themselves. Is that right? They will be improved, for sure. Take care of themselves depending on what, say, particularly what the hips down are doing. There's my optimism, again. Yeah, it is, which is great. But if we think about, so someone like, I don't know if you know, the guy called Brett Robinson, he's the Australian marathon record holder just recently. I've been working together for a while, and it started off because he's been getting stitches through diaphragm, because he has this bit rib flare position. And he also pulled back into it. So he's creating kind of, you know, cramps in that area. Now, his leg pattern and his movements hips down, really good, really smooth, in good sequence. But everything above was influencing and affecting it. So by changing exactly what you're talking about, yes, everything else fell into place, because you already had really good movement patterns and positioning of legs. Now that's not the case for everyone. Because we talked about the lower leg dominant or an overspright, or they could be creating movements through rotation through hips. So for some, yes, is a short answer, but for others, no. And it just depends on what they're doing. Bottom half. I think I need to go get myself a running form evaluation. I think it would be fascinating. It's always, I think what there's always been available is the testing, all that, and the blind mechanic on, also, is what current is. Well, and then you get feedback of going, okay, where you got hip drop here, or your land here, or you're, you know, spend more time on your right foot there. Or like so, the information and data that anyone can get has been around, and is really, really scientific and really detailed. It's about most people go, okay, what do I do from there? It's like, oh, where you got to change that? What do you mean? So you got to get more knee drive, you got to even that out, and you got to put this position in, you know, or how does that all work? So the gap is there, but it is also really good information to get when you actually see all that stuff, and what it'll do is tell the stories to why you're getting stress points in certain parts of the body. You know, like if you repeatedly use a part of the body that maybe isn't the best case part, you'll feel it because you're tight in those areas, or you break down in those areas. And then when you see it in the video, you're like, oh, that's the movement I'm doing, I wonder I'm getting a ducted tightness, or I'm loading up on my right side, more so than my left, because I'm spending more time. So the information you get is great. It's just that what happens from there? Yeah, and that's true for so many things. You know, it's like getting a blood test, and not having a doctor to go over the results, or even with our fancy GPS watches, a lot of this data is really interesting, but most runners look at it and go, okay, now what? You know, it's very difficult to actually make that data actionable and figure out how to alter your training because of it. Or what influences that data, you know? Right. So you can go, oh, you know, we're lifting right off, and I'll just try and make it even. It will hang on. We'll what movements you're making, and where are you making, and there's actually going to create that imbalance in the first place. And often it's a long way away from where someone is actually going to place their attention. Paul, this has been just a true masterclass on running form that I so appreciate, and has challenged me on several things about form that I've believed for a long time. Is there anything I might have missed that you want to add here at the end about running form that might help our listeners, whether it's ways of diagnosing certain problems, ways of fixing certain problems, or even just being more aware of things, so that you can then start the journey of improving your technique. Yeah, I think awareness is always the key. Like we talked about taking the video or taking some video footage in front, back side, so that someone can actually get a visual understanding of what they do, because so few people actually record themselves to get an understanding. What they'll see is like the race photos, and they're like, "Ah, I need to be in like a specific moment in time to get a really good shot." Like, "Oh, I've always seen to be in a shit position." And as we said before, like, the photos don't lie. The video doesn't lie. So what it can do is actually give you that awareness. What I'd also do is actually get or ask tell people to say, "Okay, when you are going out running, start to place focus in parts of the body specifically as you're running." Like, you know, spend 30 seconds to a minute going, "Okay, what is my right arm doing? What movement is it making?" Without changing anything, just placing awareness, and then going to left and thinking, "Okay, what is it doing? Does it feel the same? Does it feel different?" And if I was to draw a line on the side of the body, is it making the same line? Or is it different? And what is it creating that difference? And just start to kind of work down through the body, holding any tension through shoulders, where specifically, because it's easy to say relax, but it's actually about what muscles are engaged and switched on, switch those specific muscles off. Because what we'll see a lot of time is like, people just kind of drop their hands, and their wrists will be relaxed, but that's not relaxing shoulders. Floppy wrists, completely separate parts of the body, but that's the relaxing portion. It's about where am I holding tension? Why am I holding tension? I'm just starting to work down to create that awareness. This has been great, Paul. I think our listeners are really going to learn a lot. If they want to learn more about you, to continue their learning about technique, are you on the internet somewhere, where they could find out more about you and what you offer? Certainly. TbRunner.com is the website that has a lot of information in regards to actual form, or possibilities of doing some form coaching, or even self coaching, or self-dark-nose stuff, so that's all there. Or even to something as simple as on Instagram at the balanced runner, Paul Oneward. I'll put up stories of athletes that I work with, some tips every now and again, or just like some old way new way videos for people to see the positive changes that can be made, even just in one session. So there's all sorts of different stuff on that. Awesome. Well, I'll include show links to that on the Strength Running site, so if folks don't remember what those links are, you can just find them on Strength Running. Paul, thank you so much for your expertise today. No pleasure. Thank you for having me. We fun. What an episode. Thank you so much for listening and being part of our community here. If you're getting value from the Strength Running podcast, if the show has helped your running, or made you rethink how you approach your training, please consider leaving a review, or a rating, an Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Those reviews are incredibly impactful and helpful for this small business. If you have questions about your running, feel free to email me at
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