Bob Vylan on his controversial Glastonbury performance

Hello there, welcome to another episode of The Louis Theroux Podcast. For this episode I sat down with Bobby Villan, not his real name, but we'll come to that. He's one half of English punk rap duo Bob Villan. The other half is also called Bobby Villan. Yes, it's confusing. The other Bobby is dealt with an i.e., anyway, it's not his name either. And neither of them are related to Bob Dylan. Why would they be? It's a different word. Bob Villan are a London-based punk rap duo. The user picture of punk, hip-hop, grime, and hardcore. I would say especially punk, and to the Bob Villan point, I think it's not coincidental. It's a deadlet sort of referencing Sid Vicious, Johnny Rotten. It's a punk, what's the word, nom de guerre? Stage name. The music centers around social and political issues, criticizing inequality, racism, sexism, and homophobia. Many of you will be familiar with the band, though, because of their controversial set at this year's Glastonbury Festival, where Bobby led the crowd in a chant, decrying, denouncing, deploring, calling for an end to all of this is relevant to the chat, to the IDF, the Israeli Defence Force. Some deemed it to be anti-Semitic, either way it prompted a media storm, and we go into this in some detail. In the wake of all this, the band have been subject to a criminal investigation. They've had gigs cancelled, visas revoked, and been the subject of a debate for pundits and politicians across the world, all of which we speak about. In the interview. Bobby has not spoken publicly about this before, which makes it all the more charged. I suppose there's a chat, there's a lot of speculation about what he meant, and how we should, what construction we, the listeners, should be putting on it. He reached out to me, DMing me on Instagram and said he wanted to speak. So all of that was part of why I decided to have Bobby on. We recorded this conversation on the first of October this year in a Central London studio. I should add that this was before the Manchester Synagogue attacks on the second of October, in which two people were killed and three others injured. More recently, there's been pressure on a venue in Manchester from MPs and some Jewish leaders to cancel Bob Villains' upcoming show in Manchester in November. A warning, this episode contains the strongest of language, including racial language and other adult themes. All of that coming up after this. Do you need anything? Would you like a tear of coffee? No, I'm alright. I've got a coffee coming. I've read that you're... I think it was in an interview talked about how coffee made you nervous or jumpy. Yeah, I can't have coffee, because I mean I can't have it if I wanted to, obviously. But it's more so like I was, you know, have trouble getting to sleep or whatever. You're quite health-conscious. Extremely so. Yeah. Your veganism became a matter of the public record on the day after the last debris event. Everyone was like, "Why is militant on stage now is eating vegan ice cream?" Some people were confused by that. Yeah, I suppose it maybe seems a bit weird that somebody would be on stage saying that. And then be vegan maybe. I don't know, I don't know. My veganism is also kind of part of my politics. Is it? Yeah. In what way? In the sense that like, you know, having compassion for living things, you know. Also being health-conscious, growing up, working class environment, seeing how certain foods and education around healthy eating is kind of not offered to us. It became something that I became quite aware of and wanted to make sure that I was as healthy as I possibly could be. You looked healthy when I saw you on stage. I was at Glastonbury. Oh, okay. There's a lot to react to about the set. Should we start with the elephant? I mean, there's a few different elephants, but there's a lot going on. Also, because around all of this, there's a controversy that's bringing off everything that happened with Glasto, with your comments on stage, a chance death death to the IDF. Then that led to this ripple effect. You became an international news story. Should we get into Glasto? It was an amazing atmosphere because kneecap were going to be the story of the festival. There'd been pressure on the organizers to cancel kneecap because of their outspoken political content and there was pressure, maybe even on the BBC, to not broadcast kneecap. Obviously, for those who don't know kneecaps and Irish band, and they were dealing with their own legal issues around some of their political output. So you were on before kneecap. So there was this huge, I mean, many of them were there to see you, but some of them were there to see kneecap. I remember there was a message that went out an hour before saying, "No more people can come to West Holt's stage. It's too packed." And you did your show. The free Palestine chant went up, and then you said something along the lines, "I'll forgive me if it's not verbatim. I've got a new one for you." And then, "Okay, what's this going to be?" And it was death death to the IDF. And I remember looking around thinking, "Okay, that's raised it up a notch for sure. Some people chanted along, some didn't." But that then became an international incident with some people saying, "This is exactly what should be said amidst a genocide, amidst literally thousands of people, many of them children being killed in Gaza." And then other people saying, "He's calling for soldiers to be killed." It's a conscription army. Is he saying that actually soldiers should be killed wherever they are? Is he asking for the actual murder of soldiers as they wander around? And that was extrapolated into the idea that it was an anti-Semitic chant. And the Israeli embassy, I think, made a statement. It became very charged. I don't think I need to tell you that, right? What was the statement that Israeli government made? Well, I could look up the embassy. I don't know what the government said. The embassy specifically. I could dig it up. Do you want me to? Yeah, please, because I actually don't know. I actually don't know. There we go. Israeli embassy said it was, quote, "deeply disturbed by the inflammatory and hateful rhetoric expressed on stage," which, quote, "advocate for the dismantling of the state of Israel and show the normalization of extremist language and the glorification of violence." Kirstama called it appalling hate speech and on and on. Was that what you expected? I had no expectations. I honestly, I hadn't heard it, I hadn't seen it. Because obviously, there was a lot happening at the time. There's a lot of people. But what made through what happened then? Like, you come off stage. You come off stage. And everyone's like, "Great show. Fantastic." We waited for our buggy to pick us up and take us to the van so we could go home, right? It was very normal. There's golf buggies that, I learned that, that glasses for the first time, there's golf buggies. Is that the first festival you've ever been to? No, no, I've been to Glaston three times, but I'd never been backstage. I've been on a buggy. Right. And been ridden around the little secret. It's like the hacks on a video game. You can hack Glastonbury. Yeah. So you get on your buggy. This isn't about the buggy. No, it's not about the buggy. But just to kind of show how mundane the whole thing was. It wasn't like we came off stage and everybody was like, it's just normal. We come off stage. It's normal. Nobody for anything. Nobody. And even staff at the BBC were like, "Fantastic." That was fantastic. That was fantastic. We loved that. That's such an NPC maneuver, though, isn't it? Is that any band comes off? You smashed it. Fantastic. No, but this was a couple hours later. It took us a little while to get it. Like, you know, Dev, Dev... Nobody at the BBC at that time was there like... Oh, my gosh. You know? But it was very normal. And then we got back. And then, yeah, like I said, we went and got ice cream. And obviously you kind of see... And we're in the Glasto, what in yoga? No, this is when we got back to London. Yeah, when we got back to London. Yeah. So we're just hanging out. That's a long drive back to London, though. You're not... If your phone's not blowing up at this point. Yeah, to a certain extent. But again, it's hard to say what's happening because, oh, you've been at Glastonbury and what's happening because of the chant itself, you know, specifically. So the chant's been the subject of endless analysis, right? Yeah. And interpretation. A BBC executive complaints unit kicked into gear. They published a decision on the 26th of September saying, "Taken in the round the comments from River to the Sea and fucking Zionists and Death to the IDF could be construed as anti-Semitic for perpetuating stereotypes of Jewish influence. But that basically said, Death to the IDF wasn't likely to lead to anyone being attacked because it's an institution rather than individuals and not defined by ethnic or religious composition. That's, it did not meet the threshold for incitement. It's been said there was a, um, even on some of the set criminal investigation that's still active. Yeah, there's two. There's two criminal investigations that are still active. Then various people made various different kinds of comments and put in different contexts. Chuck D came to your defence. That's the home you brought up speaking to him yesterday. Did you? Yes. From public enemy. That's more my vintage. What was he saying to you? Is he sort of giving you a little bit of advice or just being a friendly, a friendly presence in your life? A friendly presence, I'd say. Yeah. And a mutual appreciation is shared. Nice. Yeah, which is nice. He said when, um, when people say death to a country, they're not saying death to a people. The legendary rapper explained this, saying death to imperialism, death to colonialism. Bob Villain ain't got no tanks. As far as we know. And then, uh, on the other side of the fence. Oh, who else we got. I mean, we sort of talked about this. The UK's chief rabbi, F. R. Mervis, called the episode a national shame. He said toxic Jew hatred is a threat to our entire society. I guess the construction is that... Who else did you find? Who was basically critical? I mean, there's quite a few of them. Well, you know this one because you responded. Damon Albun from Blair said it was one of the most spectacular misfires I've seen in my life. Especially when he started goose stepping in tennis gear. Yeah. I think he was being hyperbolic. I know Damon a little bit. I mean, there's no space to be hyperbolic in that, especially given what we were accused of. Being accused of being anti-Semitic. It was disappointing. Yeah. Because it lacked self-awareness, I think, his response. And I just want to say that, like, categorising it as a spectacular misfire, right? It implies that somehow the politics of the band or our stance on Palestinian liberation is not thought out. And as a more senior experienced, it's a veteran artist who's been in this industry for a long time. I think that there were other ways that he could have handled, you know, that question being filtered to him. And I take great issue with the phrase goose stepping being used because it's only used around Nazi Germany. That's it. And for him to use that language, I think, has discussed it. I think his response was discussed. Especially when you look at it in comparison to Chuck D's response, who is as equally seasoned in this music industry and is a veteran, and his response was, again, not because it was more favourable to us, but because he understood. But naturally, of course, Chuck D from public enemy is going to understand where we are coming from, with our politics, and more so than so, Damon Albert. Do you, just to be really super basic, but the IDF, I think, dispassionately, would be quite relatively easy to defend, I think, from that political position, right? Death to the IDF is obviously a step up from that. What does it mean in your view? Because you're saying the people who take from that, oh, if you see an IDF soldier, kill him. There were many commentators who would have put that interpretation on it. So I think I'm inviting you to give your version of what that means. And maybe even with the spirit of guy, can you see how something might have seen it the other way? I mean, my whole issue with this thing is that the charm is so unimportant. It's so unimportant. And the response to it was so disproportionate. What is important is the conditions that exist to allow that charm to even take place on that stage. And I mean the conditions that exist in Palestine where the Palestinian people are being killed at an alarming rate. Who cares about the charm? It's like, what is it that is allowing for that charm to even exist? That's what the focus should have always been on it. What does it mean? What does it mean? Just to the IDF, yeah. You tell me what you think it means. I guess my starting point is, and speaking it's, you know, because we've got very different life experiences. I'm conscious of all the privilege I've enjoyed. Which is my long wind up to saying, I was talking to the team about this. I don't think there's any charm that starts with death too. That I'd be especially comfortable with, even like death to capitalism. Death to capitalism, death to pedophiles, death to Nazis, death to, you know, if someone who opposes the death penalty, I suppose, death to the death penalty, it's kind of paradox. But you know what I mean? Death to the death penalty. What does it mean? So death to, yeah, it means, so I think the construction you'd put on it is that it means an end to. But obviously an end to, yeah. An end to the oppression that Palestinian people are facing and end to the apartheid regime that has been created. An end to that. And the IDF does not rhyme. Wouldn't it call on with it? Sure I mean, because that is what we're up there to do. We are there to entertain. We are there to play music. I am a lyricist, right? Death to the IDF rhymes. Perfect chant. The following week people in the audience started chanting it and you said, "No, no, don't stop that. You're going to get me in trouble." Because at that point, we had the criminal investigation was fresh. And I was unsure of what the legal ramifications would be. Is it legally okay now? The investigation is still going on. But people chant at the show, let them chant it. But at that moment, as well, I suppose, it's important to understand like where we were in terms of the media, right? Anything, everything, it was just like, they're waiting there. So they want to see, like, is he going to say it again? Is he going to think, whatever, whatever. Is he going to attempt to make sure I wasn't shooting myself in the foot when it comes to the criminal investigation? Because the last thing I want to do is help the London Mick. Seems like the appropriate thing to do, you know? The other thing to reflect on is, it was alleged that after the Glasto set, there was an uptick in anti-Semitic incidents. Did you see that? Yeah, I saw it. You trust an anti-Semitism monitoring charity. They noted that 29th of June saw the highest daily total of anti-Semitic incidents in the first half of 2025. That's a report in the Guardian. What they counting as anti-Semitic incidents? I don't know. Yeah, because I didn't see what they were counting as anti-Semitic incidents when I read it in the Guardian either. I wonder how you would find that out. Because in the reporting, no one seemed to press. On that, quite key detail. What we claim is anti-Semitic. But do you, I do think it's fair to say that there's a lot of nervousness in the Jewish community in general. Is that in your head at all? The possibility of creating an unsafe atmosphere for the Jewish community. Me creating an unsafe atmosphere. Well, that's what you've been accused of, isn't it? Yeah, I don't think I have created an unsafe atmosphere for the Jewish community. If someone, if like, there were like large numbers of people being like, going out and what villain made me do this? And maybe I might go, "Whoa, I've had a negative impact here." Like, again, in that, whatever that report, what definition are they going by? We don't know that. So it's kind of hard to have a... To add anything to that, I suppose. We're going to find out a little bit of suspense for people to listen to the end. Let's do justice to the level of the fallout. There was an American tour that was planned and Trump himself went in. I don't think he publicly weighed in. But Christopher Lando, the Deputy Secretary of State, he weighed in. I suppose the explaining it, we had US visas that allowed us to go and work in America. And somebody has tweeted their local Senna R or something like this saying, "These guys as visas should be removed." He then has talked to Christopher Lando, and Christopher Lando has said, "I'm going to sort this out." I then get an email saying, "Your visa has been refoked." He then tweets out, "Done." That's how it took place? That's how it took place. You know, you can go and you can look back at the tweets. So when the State Department spokesperson Tammy Bruce was questioned about it and the journalist asked the question. He said, "For years and years, decades, in fact, the mantra has been, "Visa records are confidential." She didn't have an answer as to why, in this specific instance, the visa was removed publicly. So what's your point? My point is that they have done that specifically, seeing the media attention and the discourse that it created and have sought to suppress that from happening any further, any other artist doing a similar thing. It's a scare tactic and also possibly to make us persona non grata. Don't stand next to this band. It might hurt your chances of getting your visa. It might show that you're supporting somebody that they deem, you know, a pariah. You got dropped by your agents? Yeah, so they were, yeah, I mean, again, it should be... I don't want to put anyone in the shit, you know. The call came on the Sunday. We played on Saturday, on Sunday. That's when our agent called and was like, "Look, guys, I've got to let you go." He said that it's come from the most senior members of... of the company. He didn't have any choice. It was either we go or he goes. And even if he goes, we don't get to stay, we go to. So that was kind of like how that transpired. I didn't, like me and him are still, you know, he's cool. Is he still at UTA? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could argue it became a massive distraction, right? And maybe was deliberately weaponized as a distraction tactic. Owen Jones said in his commentary a day earlier, this is before Glastonbury, the Israeli newspaper Harretz revealed that Israeli soldiers and officers had confessed they'd been ordered to shoot at unarmed Palestinians as they queued for aid. At the same time, Ted Cruz, the American senator, is using you and the chant as a stick to beat anyone who disagrees with Israeli policy with, like, I mean, that's an American senator with a huge international profile. So I guess it's a distraction, but in that sense, maybe it's a tactical error. Even if you're leaving aside the morality of it or otherwise, and you can tell you've opened the door to the possibility of people weaponizing a chant and just getting obsessed with that instead of focusing on the real issue. But they were doing everything they could to not focus on the real issue anyway. And it's not like they were so focused on the well-being of Palestinian people in the first place, and then, oh, no, here comes Bob Villain and distracts us all. And now we have to comment on this, you know? No, it wouldn't have changed their outlook, but it gave, you could argue that it gave them an opportunity to distract millions of people, hundreds of thousands of people and say, like, here, this is the problem. It's not what, it's not people being killed, civilians being bombed and killed, and children being bombed and killed in Gaza. The problem is we've got a punk rock actor artist saying death to the idea that becomes an opportunity to misdirect. Well, yeah, but then even with you saying that, like, listen to how ridiculous it sounds. Do you know what I mean? It's ridiculous. I think it kind of worked for some, though, didn't it? I don't know, because I think shortly after they were done battering us, the tide started to change a little bit. In my way. Well, I think having to have that conversation about the time, as they were all having amongst themselves, it created this discourse within the media of, is the chant right, is it okay to say? Is it, and it's not, is it this, is it that? And then that gave platform to certain people, maybe like Owen Jones, that would come on and say, well, actually, this is what we should be focusing on. We need to focus the attention back onto guys, back onto the people of Palestine, and we need to, and he's laying out facts and presenting his argument. I think it allowed for that conversation to have a new life, almost, because unfortunately, people have short attention spans, and watching people being killed every day, in real time, for the last two years. So, so vividly, so prominently. I think a lot of people just got numb to it. They stopped even seeing these individuals as actual people, start seeing them as numbers, both disgusting. Who cares about the chant? Why is that the conversation that they're having, but I do think within that conversation it allowed, to bring the issue back to the front page. Do you stand by the chant, and would you chant that on stage now? Yeah, like, what if I was to go on glass and be again tomorrow? Yeah, I would do it again. I'm not, I'm not regretful of it. I'm not regretful of it. I do it again tomorrow, twice on Sundays. I'm not regretful of it, at all. Like, the subsequent backlash that I've faced is minimal. It's minimal compared to what people in Palestine are going through. If that can be my contribution, and if I can have my Palestinian friends and people that I meet from Palestine, I've had to flee that I've lost members in double digits of their family. And they can say, you're like your chant. I love it, or it gave me a breath of fresh air or whatever. And I don't want to overstate the importance of the chant. That's not what I'm trying to do, but like, if I have their support, and that's the data people that I'm doing it for, they're the people that I'm being vocal for, then what is there to regret? Or because I've upset some right-wing politician, some right-wing media. This feels outproposed. This is from Pretty Songs, which I saw you perform at Glasto. The lyric is, "No liberal lefty cunt is going to tell me punch in Nazis ain't the way." That feels quite outproposed to this conversation. Yeah, we should do like a project where you just read out lyrics that way. You could read out the whole song, because it's quite enjoyable. It's kind of my way, but I know you're in this grime punk genre, but rappers, especially where grime and drill art is where they are. I'm not telling you about any of that. I'm not talking about that. And then it's all in the lyrics, like basically full confessions. Yeah, except for they don't. Yeah, yeah. Heddy one. When I dug into the lyrics, I was like, well, let's see what's in the paper trail. In 2020 on England's ending, you said, "This country's in dire need of a fucking spanking mate." Spanking sounds relatively benign compared to some of the other things. Look, look it over. Get the fucking dinosaurs out. Yeah. And kill the fucking queen that escalated quickly. She killed Diana. We don't love her anyway. That's it. I would have thought that would have got some pickup. Wanted anyone react badly to that? Yeah. I mean, I'm sure they would after your podcast. Thanks for dragging out. You were trying to keep that quiet? No, I'm not trying to keep it quiet. I mean, it's there, isn't it, for everybody to go and listen to. But that's the issue that we now face, I suppose, as a band that has been thrust into the limelight or whatever. Because it should be noted that I was very, very happy with where the band was. Very happy. With people came up, they were fans of the band. The shows sold great, and people bought the music. And I was extremely happy with how everything was. And then we were made famous by the media tabloids and the news. And so now, all of a sudden, you have people that do not know anything about the band. And they will take the tiny little thing, you know, liwick, and it becomes like a talking point and like a way of getting their political agenda across. You know, it's just, it's kind of like, and obviously that's not something that we have control of. But that's where we are as a band. So when you say those, whatever, certain lines, it's like, it's not, no, of course, not trying to keep it secret. Otherwise, I'd just remove the song from streaming platforms, whatever. But it's more so, those type of people that are not looking to enjoy the music, they're not looking to learn about the band, they're looking to just pile on, you know. I don't feel any need in helping them. Do that, you know. [Music] Shall we talk about how you came up a little bit? Like, I know you, did you grab a nip switch? Is that right? Yeah. But I also spent plenty of time in London. You haven't done a huge number of interviews. You also, you use Bob Villain, that's like obviously the name of the band, but you go by Bobby Villain as a, what would be the term, nom de plume. But what, there is a sort of certain, air of mystique or mystery or even secrecy around aspects of it. Do you choose not to make too much of your private life public? Of course, of course. For multiple reasons, the band has always been political, right? Like, before glass and me, whatever, like, the band has always been what the band is. And again, kind of like what I mentioned earlier, we understand that there are people that do not feel the same way and they feel strongly the opposite way. So, of course, you want to make sure that, you know, your privacy is protected. And there is also this entitlement that people may have of like, "Who do you go out with? Who's your boyfriend? Who's your girlfriend? Where do you live? How much money do you make?" "Do you have this?" I mean, it's like, I have no interest in giving them any more information than I have to or I desire about my private life, you know. Yeah, so I grew up in Ipswich. Did you feel like you were struggling because there's references to struggling in the lyrics? Was it just you and mum? I've got other family members, you know, I've got siblings. I've got other family members. I do have a dad as well. Shout out to the dad? Shout out to dad because the internet loves to kind of, you know, "Where was his dad?" A bit his dad on the picture, like, "Me and my dad are GME." Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, yeah, for sure. We lived in, like, you know, whatever. I want to go, like, "Oh, we lived in the council house and we lived in council housing and we didn't have tons of money, but we kind of had what we needed. We had a roof overhead and we had clothes on our back and we had food and, you know, but obviously there are reminders. Often times coming from my mum network, we don't have money, GME." You did a master's? Yeah, I did. Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah. No, but in all seriousness, it would have been easy to just be, like, kind of paint a certain picture. But yes, I did. In what? I did an undergrad in music production and technology and then I did my master's in music. And I have plans to do my PhD as well. Do you? Yes. You're going to get people as he's middle class, he's this and he's that now because of that. He's educated himself into the middle class. God forbid. But, you know, I mean. This is what it is. But no, I think, but it is interesting because obviously, like, I see those things are, like, on the internet of, like, because I've got a double borrowed last name, because I went to university there. It's like an assumption that, like, I've privately educated, which I don't know where that came from. Which is that bother you? No, I don't think, no, it doesn't bother me. Absolutely not. Is it true? Not the private part, but the idea that you lead a sort of, what would it be, a kind of middle class bourgeois lifestyle? Absolutely not. Definitely. What would they even mean to you? I suppose it would mean that, like, I have a relative... Shop at Waitrose. You probably shop at Whole Foods though, don't you? Uh, Navro, I'm an Audi guy. Are you 100% Audi little? That's where I'm shopping, man. Waitrose. You're mad, rather than no. I wouldn't. Yeah, it is in there. It's crazy expensive in Waitrose. I haven't been recently. I've been there maybe once or twice, and I'm just like, this is... Yeah, this ain't it. But it doesn't bother me. Do you mind the own brand stuff at Audi? Sometimes like, oh, that's just as good as, you know, whatever, like, hinds, beans or whatever, you know, catch up. But then I tried to get some of the cereal. You know, they've got this... Think you might need pulling back. You know, they've got a cereal thing called Harvest Morn. Is there cereal brand? Yeah. And then you get like... I'll get the wheat of it. Craves or whatever. Six pounds. But Harvest Morn, chalky pillows, whatever they are. They're like £2.50. I don't eat that. I don't eat that. That's significant. I don't eat them sort of. I have wheat a bit. Well, I'm not really specifically that, but I'm making a general... I don't know what I'm going to know about them. I'm just passing... Do you feel it buttering me? I feel like they've got these clone brands. It's a slight recession, sorry. I was going to make a point of how people's assumption of me being... whatever middle class, because I'm... because I've educated myself or whatever, is steeped in racism. But we should probably talk about Harvest Morn and... Wow. ...and cereal from Audi and the deals that we can get. Sardonic Dunk noted the... You know, when you reached out to me on Insta, didn't you? Yeah. Saying like, you know, if you want to do a chat, let's hook it up. And we did... Was there something that you wanted to... I mean, I think we've covered a lot, but... Go on, sorry. What was it that you were thinking about? I feel like you haven't had a chance... Because Pears Morgan must have reached out and said, "I'd love to get you on the show, right?" Anybody you can think of, everybody... Really? Everybody in anybody you can think of. Fox News, G.B. News... All of that appears Morgan. And why did you not go on any of those? Well, you know why. Everybody else knows why. But I suppose like, you know, those kind of shows are not looking to... explore the nuances around anything that's taken place. They're not looking to have any kind of meaningful conversation. Before you know it, you know, they're kind of... Do you condemn this? Oh, but you've said this. And you're not really given any kind of chance to speak. But, you know, so I figured I'll come here and... Listen to you talk about serial. Oh my god, that's really become a thing. But what was it that you were thinking about? Or was there anything specific? What was the thing that... I'm inviting you. I'm giving you a break. Yeah, no, no, no. I do think we've spoken about a lot of... A lot of it. I think it is important to kind of reiterate that the focus should have never been on the band and Bob Villain. And it should have always been on the conditions that allow for that chance to exist. But you've got to own part of that. Because the world is the way it is, right? The way it is, but, yes, of course, the world is the way it is. But the people with the power to change it are not changing it. That's really kind of what I wanted to get across. And also, I suppose, use it as a somewhat cathartic process of just, you know, speaking about it and adding my voice to the fight, I suppose, because, of course, we've been attacked like nobody else has. I think maybe I'm being naive or maybe I'm kind of focusing too much on self there, but I think we've been attacked to a degree that I haven't really seen anybody else attacked for speaking up about this issue. And... That's an interesting one. It's an interesting one because, as of everything, race comes to play a part in that. We're an easier villain. No pun intended than they are. Because we are already the enemy. So, you don't really need to give much context as to why the British public should hate us. Yeah, that's tricky. But, I mean, yeah. I'm not saying it like that, I don't want to say it like that because I'm not trying to compare the struggles of whatever outspoken bands or not. But I think it's important to look at that. I think it's important to look at the way that race plays a part in even the way this country presents its enemies. Ultimately, the fight is against white supremacy. That is what the fight is against. And I think white supremacy is displayed so vividly in the Zionist. They say we're not white with Jewish, right? Yeah, yeah. People have written about this. You know, people have written about viewing the Zionist movement and the war crimes being committed by Israel through the lens of white supremacy. I think his name is Joa Lippin. He has written about it. He's a doctor of psychology, he's sort of a photographer, but he's a writer as well. He's written about it. And I think you can see it quite clearly when you start to look at the relationship between Israel and the United States, for example, where American police, American law enforcement have direct relationships with the IDF and are sent there to train. In Georgia, they have something called the Georgia International Law Enforcement Exchange Program, and it's been sending people to Israel to train for the last 31 years. Those tactics are then exported directly to the US and they are then used as we know disproportionately in black and brown communities. In 2015, the Atlanta Chief of Police has said that the surveillance tactics used in downtown Atlanta were directly inspired by those that he saw in Jerusalem. So I think it's important to not just view what Israel is doing as they want to call it a war or a conflict is a genocide, but it's not an isolated thing. It needs to be looked at and viewed through the wider lens of white supremacy and the impact that it has on people of color throughout the world. I think I'd add to that there's an even more macro lens, which you can put on at which is that Jewish identity in the Jewish community as expressed in Israel is has become almost like an acceptable quote unquote way of understanding ethno nationalism. And so it's like they're prototyping an aggressive militarized form of ethno nationalism, which is then rolled out whether it's by people like Victor Orban in Hungary or Trump in the US. It's become sort of a certain sense of post holocaust Jewish exceptionalism or Zionist exceptionalism has become a role model on the national stage for what these white identitarians would like to do in their own countries. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the and that's the part and I think there's a lot of cynicism about because I think actually a lot of the people who claiming to actors like friends of the Jewish community. That's the thin end of a wedge that will end up will will will end up excluding Jewish people and excluding anyone who doesn't match the description of kind of traditional British racial type. Well, I suppose because you know, we'll see that possibly play out in the United States. I don't want to say immediately, but you know in the possible not so distant future. Yes, big time. That is that that's that's that's the point I was making, you know, is that like there is there it needs to be viewed for a wider lens and much wider lens. But I didn't I noticed on Spotify that you've got a date advertised in in the US coming up. That's like probably from the tour that that we aren't able to do. So that's not happening. No, no, no, no. Our visas have been taken away. So we can't go over there. But there is an assumption that we are kind of sat at home in tears about that. I should make it clear that we do not enjoy being in that country. We never have Oh, yeah, we never have. And I think there's a lot to enjoy in America. Is there tell me? You're putting me on the spot. Are there any outies over there? I think there might be, you know, there might be or a little is so much culture. If you're a fan of music, just for starters, like and the birthplace of not just hip-hop, but rock and roll and R&B and it's obviously got vast divisions of wealth, economic disparity or all kinds of like horrific things happen there. At the same time, there's all kinds of amazing culture and positive aspects to it. But you're talking more sort of it sounds like tourist attractions, which are, I mean, like find for a holiday, but working there is very strenuous. You know, you drive 10 hours and you're kind of still in the same state at some points. It's very hard to tour in terms of like the toll that it takes on your men or the toll that it takes on your body. It's extremely expensive to tour there as well. You don't really make a lot of money, especially a band of our size. And I think the politics of that country have just really made it an extremely ugly place to be. I mean, seeing the difference even in such a short period of time of when we were over there in October last year, 2024, to being over there again this year in April and May, it just seems to have gotten even more volatile. When we got the visa taken away, I called Neil Bob and I was like, "Yo, they've just sent me an email. My visa has been taken away. Have you gotten an email yet? Is that now?" I said, "Okay, well, expect one." And then there was a site moment of silence. And then a unified sigh of relief. And he just said, "Well, at least we ain't got a code there anymore." And we both laughed and it felt like a wait because we love the artists that we were going to do the support tour with. So we were not the headline, we were supporting it. We love him, he's wicked, amazing band, grandson, isn't he? But you know, it really is just like, you count down the days until you have to go and then you get there and you kind of count down the days until you can get home. Other bands may enjoy it, they may really enjoy being out there, they may want to like kind of crack or break America. We never really had that desire. We kind of did it because it was something that the management pushed for. Nah man, we're right, you know, we're right, we really don't enjoy it being there. Your tattoos on your face, on your fingers. What does it say? Lavie Hill. Lavie Hill. Yeah, Lavie Hill. Lavender Hill? Yes, Lavender Hill. SW-18. No, the one in it, so it's not in Southwest London. Okay. But I've also got it across my chest. Lavender Hill. And I've got an LH here as well, that stands for Lavender Hill. Because you really like Lavender Hill. It was an important place to me growing up. Yeah, it was like kind of the base for a lot of things at that time when we're younger, you know. What kind of things? Well, I suppose like, you know, you'd have great times there, you'd have bad times there, but like, you know, people would just hang out there. Kind of what people call a front line, I suppose, to the area, or the estate, or whatever, you know. There's lyrics that seem to suggest you might have dealt back in the day. There's lyrics to suggest that. That's what I just said. Yeah. You just said the same thing I did. There's lyrics to suggest that. Yeah. But, you know, I've got a door. No, but I've got a door. Yeah, I mean, like, and yeah, I've got a door. So, you know, I'm mindful. But yeah, like, if it were to have taken, if those things were to take place, that's where they would take place. I mean, I saw, I had some of the happiest times in my life there, but I also had some terrible times there. So a friend of mine gets stabbed up the road from there. I was, you know, it's just, but it means a lot to me. Where do you feel at home? Now we're going to get really deep because I don't feel at home anywhere if I'm being completely honest. Why not? I'm not too sure. I think it's because I'm always on the move. And I've not been able to be comfortable anywhere for a long period of time. There's also a strange relationship that I have, I suppose, with this country as a whole, in that, like, I feel like I'm in it, but not of it because it's been so, it's been made so explicitly clear throughout my lifetime. And it continues to be made clear, I think, by some of the rhetoric that's being delivered by some of the politicians on the right, on the supposed left, it doesn't seem as though there's anybody representing me personally. And I know that there are a lot of people within the community that have come from that feel that same way. I think seeing large numbers of pissed-up people on a march to unite the kingdom, but seemingly leaving so many people out of that unity, it's hard to feel at home in a place like that, because it's really hard to feel at home in a place like that. I'm sure your notes would tell you that the first time I was called a nigger I was seven or eight years old. It was by the kid across the road. The last time I was called a nigger was this January by my neighbour at the time. It's hard to feel at home in a place like that. Certain people will never have to understand that, they'll never have to go through that. But that is something that, from seven to now, I've gone through and continued to go through. So that's probably why I don't really feel at home anywhere, you know. But I'm searching. The room was quiet, but it's gotten quieter. It's good because it's a serious issue. But I'm searching, I am searching for that home. I would call myself a pan-Africanist. So I do believe that maybe I might find my home somewhere else outside of the UK. But many folk-wing voters will be happy to hear that. But not immediately at least. You know, still got work to do. It's not an easy segue. It's going to come back to Aldi, but maybe not. What do you think about that? What do you think about that? I feel it's disappointing. I don't mean that it's disappointing of you, but it's disappointing that. I suppose that someone who comes across to me is British. And also for me, as always, lives in London. She's London as the lens for how I experience. Because the UK or England or I feel as though I'd like to believe that. We are very diverse and that we have everyone. I'm not saying there's whites and then there's the diverse people. We're all part of whatever's going on. And what I hear you saying is that you don't feel part of it. It's not that I don't feel part of it because of course there are instances. There are moments when I feel part of it. And I suppose I feel most part of it when I'm abroad, especially in America. Because then I become British, you know, English. Well, that's interesting. But when I'm here, I think such a job is done to make me not feel that way. When they all of this happened, I mean, UKIPI, which is like they're barely in existence. But they used an AI image of me and said, if we're elected, we're going to deport Bob Villain. For real? How are you going to deport me? I'm born here. When was that? Like a few years ago when UKIPI forage is out there. No, no, recently, recently. It was on their Facebook page. Really? Yes, really. So it's weird. It's a weird existence, man. Because there are certain things that like I am just, I mean, I have a hard time being other places because I am British. I'm English. But then when you're here, you've reminded that you are other. And I've been getting reminded of it every single day since Glastonbury. Why is it that any of those right-wing pundits or, I don't know, what would you call the lot on stage at this Unite the Kingdom? Whatever you would call them. Why is it that it's completely fine for them to critique this country and say, "I was going to hell, I was going to hell, they're letting the boats and they're letting the boat." But when I say something critical of this country, who are you to have? Who are you to say this about our great nation? Why? I was born on the same land that these people were born in. But I say that thing. I criticise this country and I'm told I have no right to. The only thing that differs is one, maybe our opinion. And of course, my skin colour. How are we going to glide into something? Did iced tea reach out? Not to my knowledge, no. You know about the reference, he made a song called Cop Killer. Yeah, he did. But in the early 90s was a big deal because the police didn't like it surprisingly. It's funny, isn't it, that certain things at a time seem so extreme or at least the response to them is so extreme. So iced tea is Cop Killer, NWA is from the police. But now you hear them and you're like, and I think that was back to kind of what Chuck D was saying about like, you know, as you said, Bob Villain, but any artist that could be applied to they don't have no tanks, they don't have no bombs. You realise that actually these individuals, these artists, they're not doing any real damage for the most part. True, all the words can hurt. And words, you know, in black. They can actually rhetoric, you know, especially if it's online, which it wasn't in your case. No. Can absolutely my loopy contribute to a climate that's extremely volatile and insane? Yeah, absolutely. But mine is through art. And I think, you know, as many artists before, they have just documented the times that we're living in. And Paul Robeson says, you have to pick a side. You either fight for freedom or you fight for slavery. And he goes on to say, I've picked my side. I've made my mind up. There was no other option. And I feel the same way. I've picked my side. I've to fight for freedom, through my music, through my actions, through my activism, through my politics. That is what my fight is for. And, you know, if it means documenting the struggles that I or other people are going through, and that is met with sharp criticisms, will then so be it. Because I know that my intention is not to create division. My intention is not to put anybody at risk, any individual, any community. My intention is to bring about some sort of positive change. That's my intention. Because our politicians seem so hell-bent on the opposite. I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? I'm doing that with art, man, right? Or Kurtis Mayfield, Sangabals could stuff. You know, like, I wouldn't have to do that. But unfortunately, here we are. And I've got to do it. So I'm doing it. Welcome back. Did you find that interesting? I hope so. So a few footnotes to the chat. That's what I'm calling it now. Footnotes. Like, you know, like it's a book. Like you're reading the podcast. We talked about the reported uptick in anti-Semitic incidents after the Glastonbury set. And Bobby questioned what data was being used to define what was an anti-Semitic incident. It was based on an article in the Guardian that was using information provided by the Community Security Trust. They used the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, which is also the one adopted by the UK government and other governments. Nevertheless, it's also come under some criticism. We will link to an article in the show notes from the New Yorker, all about some of the controversy around the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism. And also, we'll link to the definition itself. It's also worth reflecting that the Community Security Trust report refers to 26 incidents of anti-Semitism on the relevant day, 16 of which involved anti-Jewish responses to Jewish organizations condemning the chant. I'd also recommend, I mean, we also have a chat. You heard the bit where we're discussing whether the right wing of the Israeli political establishment is prototyping a kind of ethno-nationalism. There's a great book on this by Anthony Lohanstein, I think it's called the Palestine Laboratory, in which he talks about how techniques developed and deployed in the West Bank and in Palestine are then exported and used as instruments of social control around the world. If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify do have a website for information and resources. Visit spotify.com/resources. And I think that's us done for this week, apart from the credits. The producer was Milly Chu. The assistant producer was Maan Al-Yazari. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. The producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mind House production for Spotify.