Bob Lazar Meets Travis Walton for the First Time - The Flying Saucer Diner

♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ Hey, Travis. Hey, Bob. How's it going? Oh, not bad. I haven't seen you in a while. Yeah. How long did it take you to get here? Quite a while. It was quite a trip, but I enjoyed the scenery. What have you been doing these days? Just working around the house. As far as UFOs are concerned, as little as possible. I hear you there. Good afternoon, gentlemen. Yeah, there. Can I offer you guys some coffee, tea, water? Oh, absolutely coffee. I'll have the tea, sugar only. Tea, sure. If you want. We have a chocolate pie and an apricot pie. I can come back later. Apricot pie. Yeah, you want a piece of that? Okay, sure. Never turn it down. Yeah? Apricot times two. Okay. Okay. Hey, I always wanted to ask you something. Yeah? Yeah, the human-like beings that you see, that you saw, what made you so sure that they weren't human? Well, the sort of rigid, pre-planned movements, the controlled movements. Oh, so they didn't move smoothly like that? Well, they moved like they should, but I'm in a panic, screaming, yelling, and everything. Sure. And they're just maintaining. They're cool, calm, and collected, and just on task. But physically, they just seem like a. I think that was the intention, the plan. Maybe to make you more comfortable. Something to make me cooperate, yeah. Yeah, it was. I recently looked at Fire in the Sky, the movie, and, in fact, I was trying to show my wife, Joy, your story, and holy cow, there is so much contradicting information about everything. Every single thing you look at tells a different story, and they're all wrong. Yeah, well, I understand that, you know, Hollywood dramatizations are not documentaries, but I think they went a little too far afield. And they knew it. Oh, they knew it? Yeah, they didn't put the part aboard the craft in the copy of the script that they gave me. Really? Yeah. So, I mean, just to be clear. They knew I wasn't going to like that. The whole thing with you and the membrane and the dead bodies and them drilling in your eye, none of that. They just fabricated all that, and you didn't know about that ahead of time. Right. That's unbelievable. Hmm. Well, there's a few things that could be classified as a story device. The membrane over the actor's face, he's struggling to breathe, struggling to scream through it. I was, in my actual experience, feeling suffocated and, you know, how do you express that if you don't have the actor say something like, I can't breathe? So. I get it. Yeah, I think you're being generous. Show it rather than tell it, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You said it was a real, like, a super humid environment where it was hard to breathe and. Yeah. It was. It served the purpose of generating fear, and that's probably as close as you can get for what they did there. What was interesting to me is the. the size of the craft that you were in, or if it was a craft or a base or whatever. Because when you exited, when you got away, and. Now, I may have the story wrong myself. When you walked out of the craft being led by this other being, you were in some giant hangar with other crafts, right? Even the craft we were coming out of seemed bigger than the way I remembered it. And when I approached it, so. Did you think it was the same craft? It was the same shape. Okay. But, you know, it's also the same shape as what you're reporting. I've always been struck by reports, descriptions of your craft resemble what we saw more than any other report that I've seen, you know? That's really interesting. I rarely comment. I don't comment on other events or other people's reports, but that's one that I've always found interesting and didn't mind saying before. What caught my attention, I think one of the times you were. When you were describing the craft, it had archways in it. Is that correct? You saw some archways? Well, the doorways and connecting surfaces between wall and ceiling and that sort of stuff weren't corners. They, you know, were rounded. But the craft itself, was it. The skin, was it made of archways? Was it like a. Looked like a support system or. Well, I was. It looked very angular from outside, from a distance, and I was preoccupied with the feeling of threat. Yeah, I'm sure you didn't have time really to. Study the architecture. Yeah, yeah. That's. Hmm. Yeah, I thought they might have been similar in that way, but that. Did you have any kind of feeling of where that craft might be, what this big thing was? Did it feel like it was, you know, you were on a base? I couldn't see outside. The light that was coming through the surface of the larger enclosure, now whether that was a building somewhere, maybe on Earth or somewhere else, or part of a larger craft, I don't know. I couldn't see outside, but it was a very natural colored light. Kind of like sunlight. Oh, okay. Hmm. It seemed natural, not artificial, like it was. Yeah. Not extremely bright, but just like natural light. But it was large enough to hold, what was it, two or three crafts in there with more. Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah, that's. Again, I was preoccupied with where are you taking me, what's going on, you know? I felt like I was suffocating, like I was dying, I was injured, and I was. Begging, pleading for explanations from this person that I think was probably selected for the purpose of reassuring me and getting my cooperation. I guess that kind of worked to some degree. Yeah, it did. But he never uttered a word? You never heard anything? No, he didn't respond. None of them did, even, you know, when I started. Demand more of a response from him. Hmm. The time from when. Well, I have a lot of questions that are kind of jumbled in my mind. Well, I'm here. Yeah. Yeah, I've heard so many theories about it, but when you guys, you know, all got out of the truck, to see the craft, everybody else got back, and you stayed there? No, actually, I got out of the truck, and none of the rest of them did. Oh, okay. See. So you just went out to investigate, everybody else stayed behind. Yeah, and that kind of led to some strange reactions. Steve, he was in the truck, and he didn't get out, and his girlfriends would say, Steve, how come you didn't get out of the truck? And he said, it's because I had stronger resistance to mind control. He's claiming that mind control made us get out of the truck, but he resisted. I said, Steve, the mind control was to make you stay in the truck. I was the one that was resisting it. Just kidding, you know, but it wasn't mind control, but he was trying to act like he had to come up with an excuse. for why he didn't jump out, too. Yeah, he needed to be a tough guy. No, well, I wished I had done it like him and stayed in the truck. Yeah. So you got behind a tree stump or something to that effect to kind of hide. And one of the theories I heard was the craft was about to take off. I think you said you heard a hum like it was powering up. Yeah, it got louder. Yeah. The sound was already there. And then I think somebody was calling back in the truck and you stood up and then you got hit by, there was a beam, a bolt or something from there and you went flying. Yeah. And you go like 20 feet high or something like that. Yeah, they were all screaming, swearing at me to get in the truck, you know, calling me crazy. Which was foolish, you know, I can't argue with that. Yeah, well, we all do crazy. Crazy stuff at times, but getting thrown, them witnessing that, the getting hit by the bolt, flying in the sky, they assumed by the time you hit the ground, you were dead, which is why they took off. Yeah, they said, he's dead, he's dead, let's get out of here. That's what they tell me, I wasn't there. Yeah, you were offline, so to speak. So the theory that I heard was, you know, from the alien's point of view, the craft was just taking off, you stood up, it just accidentally discharged on you and killed you. And this, the reason they brought you on was more like an ambulance move, was just to bring you back and reanimate you. You've heard that before? An accident occurred because I made a foolish move, you know, standing up, closed the distance between me and it, and this discharge happened. Hmm. I could feel a strange charge in the air before I even got, you know, that close. Oh, that's interesting. But I didn't know whether it was from all these weird sounds it was making or, you know, something, some energy emanating from the craft itself. But when I stood up, that was when my head was the closest to the surface of it. And then the blast of energy. Now, I didn't see. The energy, you know. You just stood up and, bam, the lights went off. The crew describes it in different ways. One guy described it as a foot-wide beam, like a laser beam. Another said it looked like a long blue flame. So, it was basically different words used to describe the same visual. How far was your head from the edge of the craft at that time, your guess, before it? Oh, it was only like, you know, five feet, less than ten feet. Okay. I thought, I don't know. I thought it was like 50 or 60 feet away. No, a lot closer than that. So, you were right, right alongside the craft. Yeah. So, that's, hmm. The increase in sound and the motion. It scared me. And when I jumped for cover, cover happened to be closer to it. So, I got down behind the log there. And the screams to get out of there, get back in the truck, got louder. And I didn't need to be told. I was sort of torn between the fear of. Being discovered, maybe. Coming out from under cover or. But I was going to run back to the truck and bam. Just felt this electric shock, stunning force go through my body. If you've ever been hit playing football or something, you didn't see it coming. That stunning sort of, it's a feeling of being stunned, you know? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh. And of course, I know what electric shock feels like too. Oh. if you're enjoying your time at the flying saucer diner take it with you from hats to teas Mugs to this high-quality canvas apron. Available now. So no idea, once you were out, you were out, and the next thing you knew, you woke up inside. Yeah. One of my wonders is, five days is such a long time to be gone. You know, where did the time occur? Did they bring you right back into the craft then? I'd like to know. Was I partially revived immediately and then I woke up much later or somewhere in the middle of the five days? Or was that waking up on board the craft almost immediately after I was taken aboard? Yeah, and what's done over five days, there's no, you have no physical effects, I mean, after all these years. Well, there was one artifact, brainwave scan. Oh, really? I didn't know you had that done. Yeah. World famous brain trauma center. Barrow's Neurological did the scan. It's where Muhammad Ali went when he developed problems with brain. I still have the chart, the printout, because there was such hysteria and just massive attention. They put me in to Burroughs under an assumed name. Really? Yeah, to avoid media attention, which was fortunate because it sort of served as a double blind on the readings that they were going to get on the brain wave that's a good point so they found this unusual pattern the technician described and um i still have the report but it's an alternating wave um moving from front to back something along that line it's really curious i'd love to see a comparison between that and maybe someone who's had other kinds of head trauma or electric shock maybe somebody who's been hit by lightning but i had a subsequent um um brainwave scan that uh where that was no longer there So it may have been some residual effect of the healing that was provided. When did you have, I mean, from the time of the incident to the brainwave scan, was that? All this stuff was almost immediately, you know. Oh, it wasn't months later, it was, you know. Right. The doctors that were in on this, you know, were there the next day. And Dr. Harder, who performed the regressive hypnosis, I was so lucky that it was him that did it because he did it in a style, a technique, to where I was put under as an observer to what was happening to me rather than the experiencer. And the reason I'm, in hindsight, grateful for that is because one of the crew members went through hypnosis where he was directed to relive it. And it was a hugely traumatic for him. The description of his body movements and reaction was probably pretty horrible for him to re-experience. It was not necessary to get at the memory of what happened. Did you find anything out through hypnosis that you didn't? I mean, sometimes it reveals some things here and there. It served a purpose in the sense that what I recalled, I was unable to communicate. I hadn't even told my brother what had happened. I was just so extremely traumatized. So it removed that to where I could actually talk about it without a secondary negative effect. calming in this technique. I got rid of a lot of that fear that I was living with every day. Perfect timing. There's sugar there as well if you need. Oh, thank you. Thanks. Well, that's good to hear that something helps because that's a monumental trauma. Yeah. But it didn't reveal anything that you had forgotten or couldn't pull out of your memory. No. Okay, so everything was pretty much while you were conscious. Yeah. You remember everything pretty clearly. Hmm. In a sort of cryptic way, I had to conclude certain things based on. events. You know, this must be the case. But I do try to distinguish between what I'm directly experiencing, perceiving, and what I figure probably explains what I experienced. Hmm. Are you still in contact with any other guys? What you said. I tried to stay in contact with all of them and write me. Um. You said a few of them have died, right? Yeah, they did. And, you know, I contacted Dwayne Smith and I said, Hey, I'd like you to come out and speak with me. And he said, Sure, you know, I said, but I'm looking really terrible. I'm having my teeth redone, so let's. After I get my teeth redone, I'll come out and speak with you. Hmm. And then he passed away right after that. Oh, sorry to hear that. Yeah. It was sad. But I did. I did tape the conversation, though. And here, this. Many years later, you know, his memory was fresh and, uh. as, you know, in sync with whatever the rest of us. Um. Were there any hard feelings between you and any of the other guys? I think some, you know. It developed over time. At first, Mike would come out and speak with me and Steve. But then Steve started to get sort of resentful, resentful about it. Um. He was asked by one interviewer, uh. Uh, was there anything you would change about the experience if you could? And he said, Yeah, crank up the voltage. Like he's wishing it had killed me and I'd stay dead or something. I don't know. It wasn't funny to me, but. Wow. So he quit coming out with us when the girls would say, How come you didn't get out of the truck? And then he developed. He tried to come up with alternate explanations. Okay, you know. I mean, at first, you know, every time he got a new girlfriend, he'd take a new polygraph test and prove it all over again. And then he started trying to say, Well, it happened just the way we described it, but it was really the government and not aliens. Made it easier to cope with, I think. I think that was a sort of, I think that was a sort of, Well, yeah, it's more of a down-to-earth explanation. A way that he doesn't have to be afraid at night kind of a thing. Mm-hmm. And one other thing that developed with Steve, I felt sorry for him, was that I was told by the other crewman that he was one of the ones who was crying when the lawman came. Well, that was fine with Steve at first. Oh, and he doesn't want that spread around. And then his cousin, I think his uncle, one of the relatives, started teasing him about being a big crybaby. And so he got real angry about it. No, I wasn't crying. I never cried. I was strong the whole time. Mm-hmm. And so that was his big beef. He demanded that I have the book reprinted to take that out. I said, look, Steve. Holy cow. I said, Steve, I wasn't there. I was just going by what the others told me. Yeah. Mike cried. He's not ashamed of that. He admitted, he admits to that. Yeah, that's very cry-worthy. Yeah. I said, I cried, Mike cried. You know, I don't know how many of the others, but he's not a crybaby. He was strong. He just doesn't know it. I ask that because sometimes when you, especially once you start getting a lot of attention, obviously you got the most attention of any of them, the guys there. Yeah. You know, hard feelings develop. I had that in Friends and Acquaintances that when, you know, documentaries are being made about me. Yeah. Hey, you didn't include me. And, you know, what the hell? And, well, you really weren't part of it. Yeah, but I knew you back then. And, you know, and then the hard feelings started. I'm sorry. I can't help it, you know. Yeah. When Steve said, crank up the voltage, and they quit coming out with me, there was jealousy. I can understand being a part of something so incredible. And then media or curious people have questions and they rush right past the witnesses to the main guy. And I can't help it. Yeah. So a lot of jealousy developed with, at least, Steve and Mike. And then, well, then, you know, in my case, then you start getting the detractors that start looking for those people, anybody that was close to you that has any negative thoughts. And they, you know, hey, can you give us some dirt on them? Or just trying to create a narrative that contradicts you. And it's. Yeah, it makes them easier to manipulate. And some of that happened, you know. One detractor tracked Steve down. He had changed to his real name. The detractor took him out to dinner and tried to talk him into taking a $10,000 bribe to say it was all made up. Well, Steve got a free dinner, but he didn't get $10,000. Hmm. And, uh. That sort of pressure was something that was used on Mike, too. And, uh. Did Steve tell you that right after it happened? Um. Yeah. Other researchers also, you know, interviewed him and asked about things like that. But, um. Um, that's to be expected, but you would think, man, you're a part of something like this. Mess it up by trying. Trying to do something to attack somebody just because you're not the middle of the story? Oh, come on, you know? I wish I wasn't. Look, the movie was about the crew boss. I wasn't there for most of the movie, so the actor who played me had a minor role, the crew boss. That's a good point. And some of the other people on the crew had a lot of. Had a lot of. Had a lot more worldwide attention than me. I was just the guy it happened to. Hmm. A lot of time's gone by. I mean, decades. What year was that? In 1975. It was 75. Yeah, I mean, holy cow, that's a long time ago. Does this ever enter your mind anymore, or is it just people asking you that kind of brings it back? Yeah, well, I'm constantly asked about it, so, yeah, as much as I try to forget it, I get reminded a lot. Are you recognized when you go out? This happens, yeah. Are you wondering if that's why I grew my beard back again? Yeah. Time goes by. But, you know, over time, the debunkers have sort of crumbled away, being self-discredited, and more positive evidence comes up, you know, scientific investigation at the site and those sorts of things. But, you know, I guess debunkers are always a part of it. They are. I think they're just trying to, like, anytime there's something of notoriety happening, you always have people that are just, well, grab on to it. Grab on to the coattails so they can get dragged along with it. And if something's getting a lot of attention, they go, oh, no, I know this, the true story. This is a bunch of nonsense. Well, as support for my case grew over time, investigators and media started wanting me to comment on other cases. And I had my hands full with my own case. And I knew that if I gave into that, if I started commenting okay which cases are the good ones which ones are the you know it would never end i i would be put in the position of passing judgment on people i said that's not right what i what i objected to so much in my attackers with it they hadn't done the research if you can't research the case thoroughly you're not entitled to make opinions however you know in your case i i sort of broke that rule people who expect expressed negative things i can't uh break my rule of uh supporting other cases i did say but the description of the craft that bob lazar saw is the closest to what we saw than any other case i've ever heard of and uh you and then there were other silly arguments i had to shoot down because they were just so silly well bob can't be telling the truth because i checked the phone book at uh area 51 and he's not in the phone book and i say come on it's secret they don't put the number in what's in the bob lazar secret department you know that was the silliest attack one of the silly but you know i met some people say they used to go out and uh party with you guys in the desert uh before you ever came out and uh they said bob was telling us that story way back then before anybody knew anything so i i consider that something that really supported your credibility yeah it's uh i don't know there's a lot well they knew you to be employed at area 51. yeah i've had um i was fortunate enough to have george knapp that investigative reporter from las vegas so interested in the story um he was able to verify you know some things here and there i mean he found my phone number in the las alamos phone book at the the lab and um i was able to take him there or show him around and but it wasn't under bob lazar's secret project no no no no no but um yeah i don't know i guess i don't want to get off on a whole weird tangent but it's it a lot goes through your mind when you start reliving all that stuff you i'm guessing you're kind of like i am i i don't really have any interest in in ufos or stories and things i don't i don't follow them but i don't whether you whether you like it or not people tell you stuff so you begin to hear oh i've i've heard that name i've heard about that incident and you know that that kind of thing but um i was never really interested in the topic i mean before that i never even believed in it i thought you know they were just either experimental government craft or something like that but um you know being involved in the project certainly changed my mind well the reality of it is it's not like some bizarre side story to life it's just what it is you know i mean you know it is as uh traumatic and disrupting as it was to my life uh there's nothing mystical or magical about it you know it's not uh anything to um go cultish about it's just the way it is you know and it's people uh don't understand why my attitude towards them going from invading monsters you know the attitude they had it to something a little more well a big picture you know you know just in my lifetime the increase in understanding sure from the 70s the size and the age of the universe you know what's the name of that new uh space telescope uh the james webb yeah james webb is out there getting a clearer view of things the story is they pointed it at the emptiest spot in the sky and could see hundreds of galaxies not just stars entire galaxies you know the milky way is one galaxy the one we live in and yet this size and scope of the universe was uh expanded so much by the james webb telescope because it's far bigger and it's not just everything's moving away from us which i think was an artifact of um the um what they thought they were seeing what makes you think that because that implied that there was a center to the universe and that you know it had edges and now they're going to have to face the fact that it's infinite i think it's much bigger than they're even thinking now i mean you know 50 years ago you know if you looked on a map of the known universe what's about that james webb made it bigger and i think it's even larger than that yeah but like they said from assuming measurements are accurate everything's not moving away from a central point everything's moving away from everything else and the only situation where that occurs is the fact that it's not moving away from the central point everything's moving away from everything else and the only situation where that occurs is if you take a balloon make a bunch of dots on it and then blow it up everything moves away from everything else so it's almost like we're on the skin of something well yeah i mean that's at least that's the way it exists in my mind to yeah to deal with it uh it could be possible that uh that is an an artifact of the amount of size and distance that's involved here that um gives the illusion that that's the case um it could very well be a big illusion too what if our measurements the red shift didn't you know what we're using to gauge distances what if that's not accurate then it kind of throws off everything that we're well maybe you could explain this to me maybe i'm not bright enough but uh say there's a beam of light going right here between us say there's a beam of light going right here between us they're saying they're saying they're saying it's 186 000 miles per second it's 186 000 miles per second it's 186 000 miles per second and nothing and nothing and nothing in the universe can go faster in the universe can go faster in the universe can go faster now now now if you were if you were if you were traveling along that beam traveling along that beam traveling along that beam let's say half the speed of that beam let's say half the speed of that beam let's say half the speed of that beam and showing the light forward and showing the light forward and showing the light forward what's going to happen the beam that what's going to happen the beam that what's going to happen the beam that you're shining you're shining you're shining is obviously the speed of light is obviously the speed of light is obviously the speed of light plus plus plus the half speed that you're oh yeah but the half speed that you're oh yeah but the half speed that you're oh yeah but it doesn't work that way it doesn't work that way it doesn't work that way and that's what they're saying it makes and that's what they're saying it makes and that's what they're saying it makes no sense at all but that's the way it is no sense at all but that's the way it is no sense at all but that's the way it is okay if you say so yeah okay if you say so yeah yeah it's relative they call it relative yeah it's relative speed you know if if if you're on a train and you want to calculate the speed of um a bullet that you fire you know the speed of that bullet relative to the ground outside is the speed of the bullet plus the speed of the train and you're saying but with light that's a special case yeah it's always the same speed no matter what okay all right have it it's it's like an article of faith it's not logical well i mean it it kind of depends how you look at it but the rules change when you get to maximums and minimums you know when you go really small and get into the quantum era all of a sudden the rules don't apply and it's a whole new set of physics and it's uh and look we really don't know for sure exactly how anything works i've you know there have been old theories that um you know the light really isn't even moving that it's just like a river and everything's already moving at that speed and um i mean it's it's difficult to what we think there's a lot of theories and there are a few hard proofs to to back them up so to a degree there's a faith it's this is involved oh there's uh you know the edges of the physics um get into some really can i get you guys another refill magical maybe one more one more yeah would you like some water as well uh sure yeah - Yeah. - Okay, and I noticed Did you guys leave your briefcase down there under the table? Oh. Well, you know, you have to adjust and say, okay, there's really no such thing as a photon. Okay. Have it your way. I take it that's not yours? Well, it either is or it isn't. But see, that's what happens when you get into exotic physics. It's magical thinking. Right. And the isms, the platitudes, are a product of allowing people to get comfortable with things that otherwise don't add up. Do you trust ladder? Do you think there's a lot of holes in it? The conclusions are hard and fast. If they could just add as if. It's as if this beam of light is this and this speed is being registered in this way. But you can explain it however you want. Here's your water, sir. Thank you. Things that are just contrary to common sense and basic logic Yeah, it's hard to digest that stuff. don't carry a lot of weight with me. I know that, you know, thousands of hardcore physicists would disagree with me. No, no, that's the way it is. Get on that beam of light. Go three-fourths the speed of it. Shine that beam of light. And the beam of light that you're shining isn't going the speed plus the speed. Okay. Yeah. Have it your way. Well, the bottom line, no one has actually done it before, so there's no direct proof that that happens. So this briefcase that someone left here. Open the files. Spooky. I'm perfectly aware that all of these very knowledgeable and well-educated people will say, no, you got it wrong, you know? No matter where you are on that speed of light, on that beam of light, it's still going the same speed. Mm-hmm. Have it your way. Yeah. Everything's relative except light. That's what they're telling me. Wow. That's an old jet-powered car I made a long time. That was back in, oh, it was in Los Alamos, yeah. It's like a lot of stuff on me. What kind of gas models you get? You get jokes like that. Yeah. Yeah. This is my W-2 from Department of Naval Intelligence. That's another thing that really, although I don't follow UFO lore too much, but more and more you hear about sightings, stuff that are either over the ocean, over water, under water. Coming out of the water. Yeah. Yeah. I was paid. And then apparently the Navy was the ones running the show. So I wonder if they were the first ones to run into the craft and they were just left in control of it. Because if anything, you thought it would be the Air Force. Wow. There's proof. I didn't need proof. I know you really worked there. And there's- Oh, these are the archways I was talking about. Okay. Yeah, I may have had that. I just, there was not study in it. Did it, did the craft glow or like that? Yeah, it was glowy. What, do you remember the color? It was kind of a soft, towards a yellow end of the spectrum. Okay. It seemed to hear that a lot. Oh, that's a drawing I made about the- Interesting. Component. Components. That's a sketch from a autopsy report. I had a friend named John Lear that, he was a good guy, but he used to have some really weird beliefs. He believed people lived in the sun and all kinds of, you know, crazy things. And I drew that picture for him. And so that's- Well, he had a very famous father. Yeah. A brilliant, brilliant guy. And I mean, what did he, he invented the autopilot, the eight track tape, a bunch of stuff. Lear, John? Yeah, I met John Lear. He did come with us a couple times out to visit. This is what made me, believe at least part of the Billy Myers story, because that looks so much like the craft. Yeah. And does it kind of look familiar to you? I mean, it looks so much like it. But, you know, I think my case, and even your case, contributed to the idea that UFOs are all flying discs, but no, I mean, some of them are circular. Yeah. Some of them are triangular. Yeah, these days. I wonder if just time has gone on, and just like car models, things have changed, or maybe the technology has changed, or maybe we're seeing visitors from somewhere else now that have their own- Yeah. Own- Well, I know people that I believe that saw them that were, they call it tic-tac-shake, but you know, it's a sort of a capsule, sort of like a vitamin pill or something. Yeah. Something like a sphere would be if you stretched it out. They call that tic-tac, but I'm sure the candy manufacturer don't appreciate the analogy. Yeah, they should ride the wave and make a UFO packaging or something. Swap. Do you want me to clear anything away for you? Make this hot. Okay, sure. And, yeah, there's a gentleman over there that said there was two folders in the briefcase. We have just found number two. Wow. I'll be right back. Oh. Yeah. There you go. This looks like you. Oh. Man, there's Travis's safe, down-to-earth judgment. This is all you. Yeah. Was that your car? Yeah. Nice car. Yeah. That thing would go over 150 in a quarter mile. It was- Really? Yeah, it was incredible. Okay, so that wasn't stock. You did some- No, it had over 500 horsepower from the factory, but it had- Yeah, it had over 500 horsepower. Yeah. It had over 500 horsepower. Oh, wow. That's a lot of horsepower. Yeah. Yeah. It was a lot of horsepower. Yeah, it was a lot of horsepower. Yeah. Now I can really see you come out fighting when you're on that table and jumping off. Oh, so this is, you know, the hangar or other shit. Yeah. And now I'm wondering, was this, am I assuming the shape, because I could only see it from this side. If there was, if it was more elongated, I wouldn't know. Because I, you know, wasn't studying it. I just looked over quickly as we left this large enclosure. And this very smooth chrome thing reflecting everything around it. So chrome. So it was really. Polished metal. Yeah. Hmm. Okay. I didn't realize that was the configuration. So you came out of the craft here. It seemed bigger at this point. So it could have been. It could have been a bigger craft, I don't know. And then went into yet another room where they rendered me unconscious. Hmm. How big? Well, yeah, you wouldn't know. I'm just wondering how big of a diameter you thought that was, but it would be hard to say with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This I found fascinating. The chair. Did you ever sit in the chair? or just, again, there's conflicting stories? I squeezed into it, yeah. Did you? Okay. Yeah, and some of the films they have, you just touch it, and you saw the star pattern pop up. Was there a screen in front of you, or did you see it all around you? It was all around me. Thanks. Yeah, thank you. So it wasn't something that was projected. It just appeared all around you? Yeah, but it was only visible while I was in the chair or next to it. If I was farther away from it in any way, it was just dark. Oh, all right. The stars just appeared, or apparently they were just visible to whoever was in the chair. That's interesting. Movement moved the star pattern, but not. Was there a joystick or something? Yeah. Or was it. Okay. But not relative to each other. The whole thing moved, you know? Hmm. Which was kind of affecting my balance for a second, you know? Because everything around me, every reference point of where I was standing was moving. Did you feel that was like in real time looking outside, or did you feel like this is more of a map room? No, I was in a panic. I wanted out, and I was just looking for a button to open a door and get me out of there. Yeah, I'm sure that's the case, yeah. So I was kind of looking for a button to open the door, and I was just looking for a button to open the door, - But it looked like that? - Yeah, and that was giving off a light. It wasn't burning me. It didn't seem hot in that sense. - Did the guys in the truck ever relate to you where it looked like the beam came from? Was it just the side of the ship or something in particular? - Well, they were pretty much saying that. - Okay. - That was also the closest point of surface next to me, so if it was some kind of, um, accumulated energy discharging, it would just be because I was close to it. Now, the artist put a tree there that-- - Yeah, I don't give a-- - It would have been the point of discharge. The grounding effect would have gone through it. I was the closest thing. - So before you got knocked out, you're crouching behind there, and you hear the thing powering up, while it's powering up, did you perceive or see anything? Was there any kind of distortion outside, or any light or glow around the ground, or anything that would-- - No, just the vibration. You could feel as much as, say, feel in your body. The high, high frequency that seemed to change with the position of your head, and the really low rumble that you just felt in your bones. More than through your ears. - I can imagine that must have been just frightening of something. - I was, whoa, what did I do? What did I do? You know, I'm this close. I was thinking it was gonna shoot off before I even got close. You know, that was a normal thing. You encounter wildlife, and you jump out, and it's gonna be running away from you. - Right. Hmm. - Jump suits. They're always wearing jump suits. - Yeah. - So did they-- - Well, except in scary invading monsters movies, they're always naked. - Yeah. - 'Cause then you get to show more. - You have to show the scales and the-- - The grueling monster effect, yeah. - Right. So the eyes, a lot of times in other witnesses, and report solid black eyes, - Yeah. - But these were-- - Yeah, they had pupils. And I think it had to do with the size of their eyes. Made to gather light, extremely dim light, in a low light environment. But in this ambient light here, it'd be way too bright for them, an eye that size. So I think it was some kind of a contact lens sort of effect that may have been biologically developed to protect the eye, or maybe something they-- - Maybe like a-- - Insert or something. - Sunglasses on a contact lens, yeah, that kind of thing. - Yeah, that kind of thing. - Was it brightly lit in this room? - Well, it hurt my eyes to look at it, but it was pretty dim. - Okay. But yeah, you're looking, feeling your back, you're looking straight at the light. - Straight up at it. - Is that about the right height? - Yeah, I think they were shorter than that. But you know. - Okay. - You gotta judge the perspective of who's standing where. It was shorter than four feet, but. - But no noise, never used their mouths or anything? - No. - And it didn't express emotions? - No. - Just were afraid of you? - Well, I have a theory about that, you know? That if they truly are telepathic, then facial expression is obsolete. They can say everything to each other without moving the muscles in their face at all. - Do you felt that they felt your intentions? - Um, I don't know. - You were combative and they started to attack? - If they felt anything, they felt sheer terror and panic. And a threat that were in response. - But they get out. You grab the rod or whatever that was. They put their hands up. And they just calmly walk out and turn right and go down. They didn't run like they were afraid of you? - Well, they were, they scurried pretty quickly. - Oh, they did? Okay. Again, some of the other stuff I saw had them, you know, calmly walking out. And I'm surprised they even turned their back on you with you. - No, they just, you know, made a run for it. And of course the physiques here, male and female are quite over emphasized. - That's really interesting. - Artist impression. - Yeah. But these are clearly human compared to anyone else. - And you know, interesting. You got a hair length differential longer for the female. That's kind of an earth custom, you know. But if they were trying to simulate something I would accept as human, that would be the way they do it. - Interesting that they'd have two species working together. - Well, I don't know if they're working together. I don't know. They knew at that point, my hysteria prevented telepathic control or communication. And I'm not gonna cooperate with them and I'm gonna die if they don't get me somewhere else for further treatment. So they needed something I would trust. Now, whether this was some kind of creation like a mechanical device or something in a species that looks very human. I don't know. They sure looked like people to me. When you grabbed my arm, it felt like a person who would grab you. - And I think somebody said you described these guys as really strong. - Yeah. - When they held on. - When they held on to you. - Yeah. Well, I was in a weakened condition, but once they got me down on the table, I started to fight 'em and I was outnumbered too. - And whatever this device was, as soon as they put that on you, you were out. - Probably some sort of anesthetic. It's no hose connected to it, but maybe it was generated from the part that was being held. Now, I was describing these craft, I just, you know, I was trying to glance over and see them, whether they were actually disc-shaped or more elongated. I don't know, 'cause I was very concerned with where you're taking me. - Yeah, I can't imagine the feeling of walking out there and now you're in this completely strange place, there's other craft. - And he's not answering any questions yet, but I was controlling that because the helmet may have been preventing him from hearing me or speaking. - So, these guys didn't have helmets. - No. - Just, this is the only guy that had a helmet. - Yeah, so, you know, when they got me out of here into the room where these people were, I was renewing my efforts to get an answer. No helmet as an excuse. I need to know, what are you doing to me? What is this? What were those creatures and all those kind of things, just babbling and getting no response. Just forced me down and put that over my face. Now, probably, I don't know. And my guess is to continue whatever medical treatments might have been underway when I regained consciousness. How did you feel at this point? Did you feel like you were still in pain and damaged from the shock? The air seemed cooler and easier to breathe out there. And I was surprised that the surface, you know, was so easy to. It wasn't slippery, you know. As steep as it was, I could walk down it in a weakened condition. Like a close-up of one of the eyes. Oh, so here, yeah. Here's that room we were talking about. Okay, so that's where the guy with the helmet came on. And actually, the viewpoint from right here was probably black. You could only see stars if you're standing over here, but I don't know. I couldn't be two places at once. What do we got here? This is two related cases. Bill Herman, 1978. Jesse Rosenberg, 1954. I haven't heard of any of that. But then you and I are not students of the genre. No. No, but that does look like there are guys there. Oh, and as do these guys. Oh, yeah. So these are cases reporting. Yeah, similar things to you. And this was after mine, and this one was before mine. I wonder. This looks kind of like I'm more in 1950s. Oh, now I got it wrong. This is 78. So this is the one that's after yours. And this is from the 50s. Hmm. Interesting case, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Well, like I said, I haven't studied any other cases. Hairstyles are interesting. Mm-hmm. Oh. Well, what else do we have in here? Not sure what that is. I'll let you push the button. Is it ticking? I don't know. No, I'm kidding. Oh, this is a simile of my badge there. Wow. It had no other surprises in there. Area 52 card. Did you push the button? No. Do you want me to? Well, we might. Uh-huh. I'll put it closer to you. Yeah. Ha, ha, ha. Okay. Not sure what that did, but hopefully nothing serious. Well, interesting dossier there. Mm-hmm. You know, there's so many UFO stories, and I've heard other people say that before. There's a. So many crashes. Mm-hmm. And, you know, you hear the detractors say, you know, a very valid point. They travel these great distances, and they come here and just crash, you know, left and right. And how can there be so many crashes with, you know, advanced technology and. That's a good question, yeah. It seems unfortunate that they aren't better drivers than that. Yeah, if they are. I mean, there's just so. There's just so many theories, so many thoughts, and so much incorrect information. Yeah. I had people recently said they wanted to make a film or documentary on me, and they said, we're going to send you the script. I said, you have the script? And, you know, they sent it to me, and I looked through it. I said, that has nothing to do at all with what happened to me. I said, well, we got it all off the internet. Yeah, well. That doesn't mean it's real. Some very creative people on the internet. Yeah, it's. Unfortunately. Yeah, it's an incredible amount of incorrect information. But some of the theories kicked around are fascinating, you know, some that say that they're not even from space or other planets. They're just, they're us from the future coming back to check on ourselves. I've heard that theory, and I'm not going to argue about it, because I'm just sticking to what I experienced. Right, yeah. You tell me. Yeah, that's the standing I take. It's, you hear plenty of things, you might be told things even from officials, but you just have to stick with what you know you felt, you touched, you saw, and draw the line there, because everything else is guesswork. Yeah. Or somebody's theory or whatever. It may or may not be true, but I didn't personally experience it, so I try to just stick to my story and not talk. Just study the phenomena. For one thing, you and I both know there's a mixture of things that are going on. Some of them are hardcore nuts and bolts, UFOs like you and I, and also other things that are U.S. government attempts to create something that will pass. And there's also misidentified objects. There's complete hallucinations and made-up fabrications. Sometimes people, you know, just see a light in the distant sky, and their enthusiasm and emotions embellish, I guess is the word. Right. Right. So, there's. Mistaken identification, too. I think the hardcore events are actually a small percentage. I think a very small percentage, because the others so outweigh it, and it muddies the water so much. Maybe intentionally. I wondered about that. Do you suppose all these stories are floating around out there just for camouflage? Oh, I'm sure some are. There's no doubt. There's no doubt in my mind that some are intentionally there to confuse things, or just stories put out about witnesses, or. I don't know. Do you have a feeling about the intention of the government's position relative to the public? You know, we know that way back, it used to be total denial. It's all nonsense. Everything's made up. We're crazy stuff, and there's no such thing. And the longer they stuck with that, the more the credibility was being damaged on their part rather than on the witnesses'. Right. So, they finally had to say, okay, let's concede something in order to reestablish our credibility. So, late on a Friday, they say, here's gun camera footage from this jet. This is something that has powers beyond anything we have. We don't know what it is. It's not ours. And, you know, like I say, late on a Friday, a news day, news goes dead until Monday. Monday came around and no reaction. What? Wait a minute. We just made this earth-shattering admission. So, the government actually issued that admission, quote-unquote, twice. Late on a Friday, gun camera footage. Look, there is something that has maneuverability beyond anything we have. It's not ours. We don't think it's other countries either. And that was, they left it open, though. I'm just saying what they said. They just said this is something that we don't know. We don't have. So, of course, that would immediately raise the fear of what it is, what if it is something possessed by other countries. I personally don't believe that's the case, but I don't know. So, it could be anything. I think they have a long way to go to get credibility back. They have made the mistake of lying for way, way too long. Yeah. And I think that started a long time ago. Yeah. And, you know, as I've said, you could, and others have said, too, it's, you know, if you want to keep the technology. We all understand it's powerful technology, but you don't have to keep the story secret. Okay, hey, we found something from somewhere else. They consider themselves responsible. And if there's a high-tech thing that they can't thwart, you know, that's their role. We're here to defend you against whatever might be there. You would think it would create alarm. I don't think it is a threat. But on the other hand, the military's justification for even looking at this is a threat. So they can study it and be involved in it and all that. If they said it wasn't, then why are they even messing with it? Well, right. So maybe that's. is allowed to languish the idea that it's a threat. But I don't think it's a threat. You know, these reports have been around for decades. Even longer than that. I think a technology that advanced, if they wanted to remove us and become the dominant species on this planet, we'd never know what hit us. They could do it overnight. I agree with you 100% there. So I don't see a threat. There's nothing to worry about. But I also don't think of any sinister intention on the part of the government with the position they've taken. They're forced to do what they're doing. Well, it's their job. Well, so many people say, it's our government. We can tell them, throw open the books and tell everybody what's going on. Well, we have. We have a couple of other superpowers on the planet that might love to know what we've harvested. And is it something that they can overcome or not? And so as long as we keep our stuff secret, they don't dare make a move. Could be some kind of a detente sort of balance of power thing that we need to maintain that secrecy. Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's something that's going to be just for national security and you couldn't say, "Well, ah, I'll show you mine if you show me yours." Because are they really giving you the full story or are they just doing, giving you some token pieces of information to get at what you're holding? You know that's what they would do. Yeah, so it can't be done. Everybody's going to hold that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody's got a pretty good safety chain on the whole mess to have the books slammed tight. A lot of people don't understand me on that. What? You know, are you taking the government side? Well, in this case, I think their secrecy is justified and necessary. Yeah, I still, I agree with that, but I think they could still just loosen their belts a little bit. Well, in admitting that there's something. I think they could just loosen their belts a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, so what else is new? Big deal, you know. We want more, like free energy. Can't do that. You know, it would destroy the monetary systems of the planet to have free energy. What do you think would happen overnight if energy could be free? Just that. Well, we'd have a big problem. Well, especially if. We'd have a big problem. Any big leap in technology would really collapse our economy. Yeah. Even if we could. Even if they didn't weaponize it, which they would immediately, how can we use this to defeat our enemies? Yeah, that's going to be step one, is turn it into a weapon. But any advanced technology, even if we could teleport from place to place or jump like these guys do great distances where you don't need cars suddenly if you don't need cars planes or the post office or anything you can get anywhere you want to do immediately nobody has a job everything's a support service for those or part of those yeah and same thing with energy the whole world economy yeah so i don't know what you do with really advanced technology it's too big i mean technology could be too good to release yeah i think uh the situation we're stuck with it uh people need to be far more understanding than they are to to be granted much more than what they're getting um you know we fancy ourselves as civilized people You know, we leave the building here and we drive down the streets and everything's fine. But the truth is, from the alien's point of view, the natives are getting restless. We're a bunch of savages constantly at each other's throat, killing each other at phenomenal rates. How many thousand this week? Come on. You know, they can even talk about that on TV and, you know, that's not incredibly alarming. not anymore no now it's just something well the aliens see it all and uh not the polished optimized side so um aside from being shot out just seeing us behaving how we behave towards each other i can understand perfectly why they would not come down and share advanced technology with us that would be a foolish thing to do that's like giving a three-year-old a loaded gun yeah exactly i i would i make the same move they did but it of course it makes you wonder what they're doing here is it just a is it a disneyland thing or you should stop by earth and check out the natives there well is there really something the europeans started exploring the world they encountered cultures that were you know basically in the stone age and the contact was very destructive they weren't ready uh for all that came with it especially not things like modern firearms and whatnot yeah advanced technology contact is always destructive it's never worked out well in history. But does that mean that we're just left to stew in our own juices? I think the aliens have a strategy. This is just my own theory. They observe our behavior and I've made the advanced the theory that UFO sightings are not accidental where they're just oh humans spotted us again we're gonna have to be more careful you think they're intentional i think they're intentional you know i think they could do everything they're doing here and remain undetected but what's allowed to be seen is to as a reminder you know a hint they're just a tease yeah something things could be a lot better if it would just get our act together. Hmm. That'd be great if that was accurate. Well, just the awareness that there's a better way, a different way, a more advanced way, could maybe inspire some leaders to want to pull us in that direction, make us compatible with more advanced societies. But we're a bunch of savages at this point. Yeah, it's going to be a different set of leaders, I think. I don't think anyone's thinking along those lines at the moment anyway. You're not much of a coffee drinker, are you? No. I just drink a hot beverage to keep my vocal cords from getting hoarse. Did you ever drink coffee? I mean, when you were younger? Back when I was working at the paper mill, I went graveyard shift with every third shift. Go to work at midnight, you've got to stay awake somehow. So that was the first time I really drank coffee. My mother was a coffee drinker, but I never drank it until I started doing shift work. That was just to survive graveyard, the midnight shift. Yeah, I can usually have two cups on the third one. I start getting shaky. I'll definitely do it. I try to distinguish between what happened, what I can report factually, accurately, and just what's my own theory, you know? And I'm sure you don't agree with all of my theories, but nobody does, and that's fine and dandy, you know? No problem. Well, they're your theories, you know? I'm the same way. I draw a hard line between what I know, what I experienced, and what I believe might be true and what I've heard from others. I don't let them ever cross over. It's really, there's just so much incorrect information to dig through, it would be great to know what's accurate and what's not. Have there been that many crashes? Are all those abduction stories real or not? Certainly some are. The Betty and Barney Hill story, you've probably heard that, and you know, I firmly believe that occurred. I firmly believe, you know, what happened to you occurred. And there are so many other instances. You know? Yeah. There are so many other instances. It would be great to know. You know, I had an instance that happened when I was probably first grade or, you know, when I was very, very young, that I was awakened in the middle of the night by a small being, large eyes, big white head, wearing a black jumpsuit. Really? Yeah. And it was not an alien. It was just a little man. This is when you were like one year old? Yeah. Wow. I never heard this. My sister, who is still alive, remembers me insisting that this happened. And she, but she says, no, it was a dream. It was a dream. And so, all right, believe what you want. You know? I've been alive for 72 years. Oh, wow. Wow. I've been alive for 72 years and I've never believed a dream was real. That really happened. I didn't call it an alien. It was just a little man with a big bald head and bald eyes. I didn't call them aliens. In those days, aliens were my favorite Martian. Oh, right. Mm-hmm. Too little antennas that would sprite from a human's head. Mm-hmm. What do you remember? What did you remember from that? Just some. I was, it was very hot and we had huge coolers mounted on the roof of the house blowing down through the hallway and out. And that was one way to stay cool. So we'd, instead of sleeping in our bedrooms, we'd bring bed rolls and lay in the hallway. So I was awakened by something lifting my bed roll from the bottom end. My legs were lifted into the air and I woke up. What is this? I mean, that's not a way a dream happens, you know. It's not a dream. You know, this was happening and I saw the little man that was lifting the bed roll. And I called out and he dropped it and turned to run away. And I jumped up and ran. I ran after him and I was unable to catch up with him. He disappeared in the house. We had a huge house, 21 rooms. Wow. Yeah. It used to be the mayor of Phoenix's residence, but my mom was able to buy it in its later years and convert the upstairs rooms. Oh, okay. And she had an answering service downstairs to pay the bills. So you lost him in the running amounts? There was upstairs. And an attic. And a bottom stair. And a basement. And spaces under the house that us kids explored and found. There were secret passages all over that house. Sounds like a fun place for a kid. Yeah, it was. It was a fun place for a kid. That was a fun place for a kid. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. You know, we found all kinds of things there. But the little man disappeared, and I spent days trying to find out how he got away. That doesn't sound like a dream to me either. Yeah. And it wasn't terribly frightening. I didn't call it, "Oh, an alien was trying to get me," or anything. It was just this little man woke me up, you know. And so, but my, you know, it wasn't a big deal. It wasn't a big deal. Yeah. But it was a big deal. It was a big deal. It was a big deal. It was a big deal. It was a big deal. It was a big deal. Yeah. It was a big deal. Yeah. It was a big deal. Yeah. It was a big deal. She believes that I believe it. But anyway, it was wearing the black jumpsuit that Betty Hill describes. So I've never really touted that story very much because it was just me with no witnesses. Right. And so take it or leave it, I believe it, but I don't expect anybody to believe anything of this nature without some sort of evidence, you know. Yeah, that doesn't happen. Other witnesses, physical evidence, that kind of stuff. Hmm. That is interesting. Most of the stories I've heard, the limited stories I've heard, And people, any interaction with aliens, whether it's abductions, whatever, it seems to be more than once. They seem to come at an early time in their life and then later on. You've probably heard me talk about my anthill theory. You know, if you're walking by an anthill, you don't stop and say, hey, I think I'll stop and have a conversation with that ant right there. That was how I viewed it before, about people saying that aliens came and contacted them. But now, I think that if you saw one when you were younger and one when you were older, they know it's you, that there's a connection between the two. Yeah, there's a reason. There's a reason. There's a basis for that. They have huge heads and a lot of intelligence. And I draw the analogy to the Utah Data Center. It's a government computer complex covering acres in Utah that requires millions of gallons of water just to keep it cool. And it supposedly, reportedly, is recording every electronic transmission on the face of the earth. Now, mere humans can keep track of that much information. Super advanced species can probably do it in their head. But the idea that there's a connection between these events is, I think, quite plausible. I do, too. And not accidental, intentional for some reason. No, I think that once they find a person or are interested in a person, I think they just want to keep tabs on them for some reason in some way. But I definitely have not tried to promote the idea that, see, that means I'm something special. They're interested in me because I have qualities they like or something. Who knows what their reason might be. But that's definitely not it. I've never sought any notoriety. I never sought out an interview or any sort of public appearance. They always invite me. I don't ever seek them. And other than that, I just keep to myself. Yeah, you sound like me. Even the book I wrote, I don't even publish that I wrote a book or advertise it anywhere. People find out it's there and available and they seek me out and order them. But other than that, my wife thinks I'm crazy. Come on, get out there and advertise it. You'd sell a million of them. It's not you. No, not me, but it's steadily keeping me busy for the last 50 years or 40-some years. Well, I'm glad we had time to sit down and talk. Yeah. Keep the waitress busy, keeping this. I just wanted to let you know that it's on the house for you this afternoon. Oh, well, thank you. That's great. We thank you for joining the Flying Seltzer. Well, thank you for your service. Have a great afternoon. You too. Thank you. Thank you.