Bob Lazar Meets Travis Walton for the First Time - The Flying Saucer Diner

[music] Hey, Travis. Hey, Barb, how's it going? No, not bad, I haven't seen you in a while. Yeah, not long to take you to get here. Uh, quite a while. It was quite a trip, but I enjoyed the scenery. What have you been doing these days? Just working around the house. As far as UFOs are concerned, as little as possible. I hear you there. Good afternoon, gentlemen. Yeah, there. Can I offer you guys some coffee tea water? Oh, absolutely coffee. I have the tea sugar rolling. Tea, sure. If you want, we have a chocolate pie and an apricot pie. I can come back later. Apricot pie. Yeah, you want to visit that? Okay, sure. Never turn it down. Yeah, apricot times two. Okay. [music] I always wanted to ask you something. Yeah, the human-like beings that you saw. Yeah. What made you so sure that they weren't human? Well, the sort of rigid pre-planned movements that controlled movements. Well, they didn't move. Well, they moved. Like they should. But I'm in a panic, screaming, yelling and everything. And they're just maintaining their cool, calm and collected and just on task. But physically, they're, I mean, they just seem like. I think that was the intention of the planet. Maybe to make you more comfortable things that make me go up right there. Yeah, it was. I'd recently looked at fire in the sky, the movie. And in fact, I was trying to show my wife, Joy, your story. Holy cow, there is so much contradicting information about everything. The single thing you look at tells a different story and they're all wrong. Yeah, well, I understand that, you know, Hollywood dramatizations are not documentaries. But I think they went a little too far afield and they knew it. How they knew it? Yeah, they didn't put the part aboard the craft in the copy of the script that they gave me. Really? Yeah. They knew I was going to like that. The whole thing with you in the membrane and the dead bodies and them drilling in your eye. None of that. They just fabricated all that. And you didn't know about that ahead of time. That's unbelievable. Well, there's a few things that could be classified as a story device. The membrane over the actor's face. He's struggling to breathe, struggling to scream through it. I was in my actual experience feeling suffocated and, you know, how do you express that? If you don't have the actor say something like, I can't breathe. I think you're being generous to rather than tell it. But yeah, you said it was a real like a super humid environment where it was hard to breathe. Yeah, it served the purpose of generating fear. And that's probably as close as you can get for what they did there. What was interesting to me is the size of the craft that you were in or if it was a craft or a base or whatever. Because when you exited, when you got away and now I may have the story wrong myself. When you walked out of the craft being led by this other being, you were in some giant hanger with other crafts. Even the craft we were coming out of seemed bigger than the way I remembered it when I approached it. Did you think it was the same craft? It was the same shape. Okay. But, you know, it's also the same shape as what you're reporting. I've always been struck by reports, descriptions of your craft, resemble what we saw more than any other report that I've seen. That's really interesting. I rarely comment on other events or other people's reports, but that's one that I've always found interesting and didn't mind saying before. What caught my attention, I think one of the times you were describing the craft, it had archways. Well, the doorways and connecting surfaces between wall and ceiling and that sort of stuff weren't corners. The craft itself was it the skin, was it made of archways, was it like a support system? I was, it looked very angular from outside, from a distance, and I was preoccupied with the feeling of threat. Yeah, I'm sure you didn't have time really to study the architecture. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I thought they might have been similar in that way, but did you have any kind of feeling where that craft might be, what this big thing was? Did it feel like it was, you know, the light that was coming through the surface of the larger enclosure. Now, whether that was a building somewhere, maybe on Earth or somewhere else, or part of a larger craft, I don't know. I couldn't see outside, but it was a very natural colored light, kind of like sunlight. Oh, okay. It seemed, it seemed natural, not artificial, like it was. Yeah, so you're not extremely bright, but just like natural light. But it was large enough to hold, what was it, two or three crafts in there with more room? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and I was preoccupied with where are you taking me, what's going on? I felt like I was suffocating, like I was dying, I was injured, and I was begging, pleading for explanations from this person. But I think was probably selected for the purpose of reassuring me and getting my cooperation. I guess that, but kind of worked to something degree. Yeah, it did. But he never uttered a word, he never heard. No, he didn't respond. None of them did, even, you know, when I started to demand more of a response from him. The time from when, well, I have a lot of questions, they're kind of jumbled in my mind. I'm here. Yeah, I've heard so many theories about it, but when you guys, you know, all got out of the truck to see the craft, everybody else got back and you stayed there? No, actually, I got out of the truck and none of the rest of them did. Oh, okay. So you just went out to investigate everybody else stayed behind. And that kind of led to some strange reactions. Steve, he was in the truck and he didn't get out. And his girlfriends would say, Steve, how come you didn't get out of the truck? And he said, it's because I had stronger resistance to mind control. He's claiming that mind control made us get out of the truck, but he resisted. I said, Steve, the mind control was to make you stay in the truck. I was the one that was resisting it. I was just kidding, you know, but it wasn't mind control that he was trying to act like he had to come up with an excuse for why he didn't jump out too. Yeah, he needed to be a tough guy. I know. Well, I wish I had done it like him and stayed in the truck. Yeah. So you got behind a tree stump or something to that effect, to kind of hide. And one of the theories I heard was, the craft was about to take off. I think you said you heard a hum like it was powering up. Yeah. It got louder. Yeah. The sound was already there. And then I think somebody was calling back in the truck and you stood up and then you got hit by there was a beam, a bolt or something from there. And you were and you went flying and you go like 20 feet high or something like that. Yeah, they were all screaming and swearing at me to get in the truck, you know, calling me crazy. Which was foolish, yeah. I can't argue with that. Yeah. Well, we all do crazy stuff at times. But getting through them witnessing that the getting hit by the bolt flying in the sky, they assumed by the time you hit the ground, you were dead, which is why they took out. Yeah. They said he's dead. He's dead. Let's get out of here. That's what they tell me I wasn't there. Yeah. You were you were offline for so to speak. So the theory that I heard was, you know, from the aliens point of view, the craft was just taking off, you stood up. It just accidentally discharged on you and killed you. Yeah. And this the reason they brought you on was more like an an ambulance move was just to bring you back and kind of read. I mean you if you you've heard that. And accident occurred because I made a foolish move, you know, standing up, closed the distance between me and it and this discharge happened. I can feel a strange charge in the air before I even got, you know, Oh, that's close. But I didn't know I didn't know whether it was from all these weird sounds it was making or you know, something's some energy emanating from the craft itself. But when I stood up, that was when my head was the closest to the surface of it. And then the blast of energy. Now I didn't see the energy, you know, you just stood up and bam the lights on. The crew describes it in different ways. One guy described it as a foot wide beam like a laser beam. Another said it looked like a long blue flame. So it was basically different words used to describe the same visual. How how far was your head from the the edge of the craft at that time your your guess before it? Oh, it was only like, you know, five feet less than 10 feet. Okay, I thought I don't know. That is like 50 or 60 feet away. So it was no, a lot closer than that. So you were right, right alongside the craft. So that's, hmm. The increase in sound in the motion scared me and when I jump for cover cover happened to be closer to it. So I got down behind the log there. And the screams to get out of there, get back in the truck, got louder. And I didn't need to be told as sort of torn between the fear of being discovered. Maybe coming out from under cover or but I was going to run back to the truck and bam just felt this electric shock stunning force go through my body. I've never been hit. I have a plane football or something. You didn't see it coming that stunning sort of, it's a feeling of being stunned. Oh yeah. Yeah. And of course, I know what electric shock feel like too. Oh. If you're enjoying your time at the flying saucer diner, take it with you from hats to teas, mugs to this high quality canvas apron available now. So no idea the time, once you were out, you were out in the next thing you knew you woke up inside. So yeah. You know, one of my wonders is, about five days is such a long time to be gone. You know, where did the time occur? Did it? Did they bring you right back into the craft then? And I'd like to know. Yeah. It was ice partially revived immediately and then I woke up much later or somewhere in the middle of the five days or was that waking up on board the craft almost immediately after I was taken aboard. Yeah. And what's done over five days? There's no, you have no physical effects. I mean, after all these years or. Well, there was one artifact. Brainwave scan. Oh, really? Didn't know you had that time? Yeah. World famous brain trauma center. Barrow's neurological did the scan. It's where Muhammad Ali went when he developed problems with brain and I still have the chart, the printout. Because there was such hysteria and just massive attention. They put me in to Barrow's under an assumed name. Really? Yeah, to avoid media attention, which was fortunate because it sort of served us a double blind on the readings that they were going to get on the brainwave system. That's a good point. So they found this unusual pattern. The technician described and I still have the report, but it's an alternating wave moving from front to back, something along that line. It's really curious. I'd love to see a comparison between that and maybe someone who's had other kinds of head trauma or electric shock. Maybe somebody's been hit by lightning. But I had a subsequent brainwave scan where that was no longer there. So it may have been some residual effect of the helium that I was provided. When did you have, from the time of the incident to the brainwave scan, was that? All the stuff was almost immediately. It wasn't months later. The doctors that were in on this were there the next day. Dr. Harder performed that, regardless of hypnosis, I was so lucky that it was him that did it because he did it in a style, a technique, to where I was put under as an observer to what was happening to me, rather than the experiencer. And the reason I'm in hindsight, grateful for that, is because one of the crew members went through hypnosis where he was directed to relive it. It was a hugely traumatic form. The description of his body movements and I would imagine. The reaction was, it was probably pretty horrible for him to re-explanate that. It was not necessary to get at the memory of what happened. Did you find anything out through hypnosis that you didn't, I mean sometimes it reveals some things here and there, was there anything to purpose in the sense that what I recalled, I hadn't, I was unable to communicate. I hadn't even told my brother what had happened. I couldn't, I was just so extremely traumatized. So it removed that to where I could actually talk about it without a secondary negative effect. That really hated in my recovery a lot. Dr. Harder was amazingly Call me in this technique, it got rid of a lot of that fear that was I was living with everything. Perfect timing. There's sugar there as well if you need. Oh, thank you. Thanks. Well, that's that's good to hear. That's something that helps because that's a monumental trauma. Yeah. But it didn't reveal anything that you had forgotten or didn't pull out of your memory. Okay. So everything was pretty much the while you were conscious. You remember everything pretty clearly. You know, a sort of cryptic way, you know, I had to conclude certain things based on events, you know, this must be the case, but I do try to distinguish between what I'm directly experiencing and perceiving and what I figure probably explains what I experienced. Oh. Are you still in contact with any other guys what you said? I tried to stay in contact with all of them and write me. You said a few of them are hard to hide, right? Yes. They did. And you know, I contacted Duane Smith and I said, hey, I'd like you to come out and speak with me and he says, sure, you know, I said, but I'm looking really terrible. I'm having my teeth redone. So let's after I get my teeth redone, I'll come out and speak with you. And then he passed away right after that. Oh. Sorry to hear that. Yeah. I was sad. I did tape the conversation though and here this many years later, you know, his memory was fresh and as, you know, in sync with it, whatever the rest of us. Were there any hard feelings between you and any of the other guys? I think some, you know, it developed over time. At first, Mike would come out and speak with me or and Steve. That then Steve started to get sort of resentful about it. He was asked by one interviewer, was there anything you would change about the experience if you could? And he said, yeah, crank up the voltage. Like he was saying, it killed me out of state debt or something. I know it wasn't funny to me, but wow. So we quit coming out with us when girls would say, how come you didn't get out of the truck? And then he developed, he tried to come up with alternate explanations. Okay. You know, I mean, at first, you know, every time he got a new girlfriend, he'd take a new polygraph test and prove it all over again. And then he started trying to say, well, I haven't just the way we described it, but it was really the government and not aliens. Made it easier to cope with, I think. That was sort of a. Well, yeah, it's more of a down-to-earth explanation. A way that he doesn't have to be afraid at night, kind of a thing. And one other thing that developed with Steve, I felt sorry for him, was that I was told by the other crewman that he was one of the ones who was crying when the Laman came. Well, that was fine with Steve at first, and he doesn't want that spread around. And then his cousin, I think his uncle, one of the relatives, started teasing him about being a big crybaby. And so he got really angry about, no, I wasn't crying. I never cried. I was strong the whole time. And so that was his big beef. He demanded that I have the book reprinted to take that out. I said, look, Steve. Holy cow. I said, Steve, I wasn't there. I was just going by what the others told me. Yeah. Mike cried. He's not ashamed of that. He admits to that. Yeah, that's very cryworthy. Yeah. I said, I cried, Mike cried. I don't know how many of the others, but he's not a crybaby. He was strong. He just doesn't know it. I ask that because sometimes when you, especially when you start getting a lot of attention, obviously you've got the most attention of any of them. The guys there, hard feelings develop. I had dad and friends and acquaintances that when documentaries are being made about me, they didn't include me. Yeah. And what the hell? Well, you really weren't part of it. Yeah, but I knew you back then and then the hard feelings started. I'm sorry. I can't help it. Yeah. I said crank up the walls to some and they quit coming out with me. There was jealousy. I can understand being a part of something so incredible and then media or curious people have questions and they rush right past the witnesses to the main guy and I can't help it. Yeah. So a lot of jealousy developed with at least Steve and Mike. And then you start getting the detractors that start looking for those people, anybody that was close to you, that has any negative thoughts and they, you know, hey, can you give us some dirt on them or just trying to create a narrative that contradicts you and it's, yeah, it makes some easier to manipulate and some of that happened, you know, one detractor. Track Steve down, he had changed to his real name, the tractor took him out to Donor and tried to talk him into taking a $10,000 bribe to say it was all made up. Well, Steve got a free dinner, but he didn't get $10,000 and that sort of pressure was something that was used on Mike too and. Did Steve tell you that right after it happened? I don't get it. Yeah. Other researchers also, you know, interviewed him and asked about things like that. But that's to be expected, but you would think, man, you're a part of something like this, mess it up by trying to do something to attack somebody just because you're not the middle of the story. Come on. You know, I wish I wasn't. Look, the movie was about the crew boss. I wasn't there for most of the movie, so the actor who played me had a minor role. The crew boss, and that's some guy in some of the other people on the crew had a lot more worldwide attention than me. I was just a guy that happened through. A lot of times gone by, I mean, decades. What year was that? In 1975. It was 1975. Yeah. I mean, a holy cow. That's a long time ago. This is ever-enter your mind anymore or is it just people asking you that kind of brings it back? Yeah. Well, I'm constantly asked about it, so yeah, as much as I try to forget it, I get reminded a lot. Are you recognized when you go? This happens, yeah. Are you wondering if that's why I grew my beard back again? Yeah. Time goes by. But over time, the debunkers have sort of crumbled away being self-discredited and more positive evidence comes up, you know, scientific investigation at the site, no sorts of things. But I guess the debunkers are always a part of it. They are. I think they're just trying to, like, any time there's something of notoriety happening. We always have people that are just, we'll grab onto the coattails so they can get dragged along with it. And if something's getting a lot of attention, they go, "Oh, no, I know this, the true story. This is a bunch of nonsense." Well, as support from my case grew over time, investigators and media started wanting me to comment on other cases, and I had my hands for all of my own case, and I knew that if If I gave into that, if I started commenting on it. OK, which cases are the good ones, which ones? It would never end. I would be put in the position of passing judgment on people. I said, that's not right. What I objected to so much in my attackers with it, they hadn't done the research. If you can't research the case thoroughly, you're not entitled to make opinions. Normally, in your case, I sort of broke that rule. People who expect expressed negative things-- I can't break my rule of supporting other cases, I did say. But the description of the craft that Bob Lazar saw is the closest to what we saw than any other case I've ever heard of. And then there were other silly arguments. I had to shoot down because they were just so silly. Well, Bob can't be telling the truth, because I checked the phone book at Area 51, and he's not in the phone book. And I said, come on. It's secret. They don't put the number-- what's the name? Bob Lazar, secret department. That was the sillyest attack, one of the silly. But I met some people, say they used to go out and party with you guys in the desert before you ever came out. And they said, Bob was telling us that story way back then before anybody knew anything. So I consider that something that really supported your credibility. Yeah, it's-- I don't know. There's a lot. Well, they knew you to be employed at Area 51. Yeah, I have had-- I was fortunate enough to have George's nap, that investigative reporter from Las Vegas, so interested in the story. He was able to verify some things here and there. I mean, he found my phone number in the Los Alamos phone book at the lab. And I was able to take him there to show him around. But it wasn't under Bob Lazar's secret project? No, no, no. But yeah, I don't know. I guess I don't want to get off on a whole weird tangent. But it a lot goes through your mind when you start reliving all that stuff. I'm guessing you're kind of like I am. I don't really have any interest in UFOs or stories or things. I don't follow them. But whether you like it or not, people tell you stuff. So you begin to hear, oh, I've heard that name. I've heard about that incident and that kind of thing. But I was never really interested in the topic. I mean, before that, I never even believed in it. I thought there were just either experimental government craft or something like that. But being involved in the project certainly changed my mind. Well, the reality of it is it's not like some bizarre side story to life. It's just what it is. I mean, it is as traumatic and disrupting as it was to my life. There's nothing mystical or magical about it. It's not anything to go cultish about. It's just the way it is. And it's people don't understand why my attitude towards them going from invading monsters, you know, the attitude they had to do something a little more. Well, a big picture, you know, just in my lifetime, the increase in understanding. Sure, from the 70s. The size of the age of the universe. What's the name of that new space telescope? The James Webb, the James Webb is out there getting a clearer view of things. The story is, they pointed it at the enthusiast spot in the sky and could see hundreds of galaxies, not just stars, entire galaxies. You know, the Milky Way is one galaxy, the one we live in. And yet, the size and scope of the universe was expanded so much by the James Webb telescope because it's far bigger. And it's not just everything moving away from us, which I think was an artifact of what they thought they were seeing. But it makes you think that. Because that implied that there was a center to the universe and that, you know, it had edges. And now they're going to have to face the fact that it's infinite. I think it's much bigger than they're even thinking now. I mean, you know, 50 years ago, you know, if you looked on a map of the known universe, what's about that? James Webb made it bigger. And I think it's even larger than that. But like they said, from assuming measurements are accurate, everything's not moving away from a central point. Everything's moving away from everything else. And the only situation where that occurs is if you take a balloon, make a bunch of dots on it, and then blow it up, everything moves away from everything else. So it's almost like we're on the skin of something. Well, yeah, I mean, at least that's the way it exists in my mind to deal with it. It could be possible that that is an artifact of the amount of size and distances involved here that gives the illusion that that's the case. It could very well be a big illusion, too. What if our measurements, the redshift, and, you know, what we're using to gauge distances, what if that's not accurate, then it kind of throws off everything that we're-- Well, maybe you could explain this to me. Maybe not bright enough, but say there's a beam of light going right here between us. They're saying, it's 186,000 miles per second. And nothing in the universe can go faster. Now, if you were traveling along that beam, let's say half the speed of that beam and showing the light forward, what's going to happen? The beam that you're shining is obviously the speed of light plus half speed that you're-- Yeah, but it doesn't work that way. And that's what they're saying. It makes no sense at all, but that's the way it is. OK, if you say so. Yeah, yeah. It's relative. They call it relativity. Yeah, relative speed, you know? If you're on a train and you want to calculate the speed of a bullet that you fire, the speed of that bullet relative to the ground outside is the speed of the bullet plus the speed of the train. And you say, but would light, that's a special case. Yeah, it's always the same speed no matter what. OK? Yeah, it's like an article of faith. It's not logical. Well, I mean, it kind of depends how you look at it. But the rules change when you get to maximums and minimums. You know, when you go really small and get into the quantum era, all of a sudden the rules don't apply. And it's a whole new set of physics. And it's-- and look, we really don't know, for sure, exactly how anything works. I've-- you know, there've been old theories that, you know, the light really isn't even moving. That it's just like a river. And everything's already moving at that speed. And I mean, it's difficult to completely prove what we think. There's a lot of theories. And there are a few hard proofs to back them up. So to a degree, there's a faith that this is involved. Oh, there's, you know, the edges of physics get into some really. Can I get you guys another refill? Magical thinking. But would you like some water as well? Sure. Yeah. And I noticed-- Did you guys leave your brief case down there under the table? Oh. Well, you know, you have to adjust and say, okay, there's really no such thing as a photon. Okay. Have a your way. I take it. That's not yours. Well, it either is or it isn't. Let's see, that's what happens when you get in the exotic physics, it's magical thinking. And the the the the isms, the platitudes are a product of allowing people to get comfortable with things that otherwise don't add up. Do you trust modern physics? Well, you think there's a lot of holes in it. The conclusions are hard and fast. The if they could just add as if it's as if this beam of light is this and this speed is being registered in this way. But you can explain to however you want, but because you want your things. Thank you. Things that are just contrary to common sense and basic logic. Yeah, it's hard to digest that stuff. Don't carry a lot of weight with me. I know that, you know, thousands of hardcore physicists would disagree with me. No, no, that's the way it is. Get on that beam of light. Go three-fourths, the speed of it. Shine that beam of light and the beam of light that you're shining isn't going the speed plus the speed if you're okay. Yeah, that would turn work. Oh, the bottom line, no one has actually done it before, so there's no direct proof that that happens. Tell this briefcase that someone left here. Open the files. Spooky. I'm perfectly aware that all of these very knowledgeable and well-educated people say, "No, you got it wrong." You know, no matter where you are on that speed of light, on that beam of light, it's still going the same speed. Have it your way. Everything's relative except light. That's what they're telling me. They see so. That's a whole jet-powered car I made a long time. That was back in, oh, it's in Los Alamos, yeah. It's like a lot of stuff on me. What kind of gas mine is you get? You get jokes like that. Yeah. It is my W2 from Department of Naval Intelligence. That's another thing that really although I don't follow you a full law or too much, but more and more you hear about sightings, stuff that are either over the ocean, over water, underwater. Coming out of water. Yeah, I was paid and then apparently the Navy with the ones, you know, running the show. So I just I wonder if they were the first ones to run into the craft and they were just left in control of it because of anything you thought it would be the air force. Wow. There's proof. I didn't need proof. I know you really worked there. Oh, these are the archways I was talking about. Okay, yeah. May have had I just it was not steady in it. Did it with the craft glow or like it was glowy? What do you remember the color? It was kind of a soft towards a yellow end of the spectrum. Okay. It seemed to hear that a lot. Oh, it's a drawing I made about the interesting components. Yeah. That's a sketch from a autopsy report. I had a friend named John Lear that he was a good guy but he used to have some really weird beliefs. He believed people lived in the sun and you know, kinds of crazy things and I drew that picture for him. And so that's well, he had a very famous father. Yeah, brilliant, brilliant guy and I mean, what he invented, the autopilot, the eight track tape, a bunch of stuff later. Yeah, I met John Lear. He did come with us a couple times out to visit this. This is what made me believe at least part of the Billy Meier story because that looks so much like the craft. Yeah. And does it kind of look familiar to you? I mean, it looks like they look so much like it. But you know, I think my case and even your case contributed to the idea that UFOs are all flying disk, but no, I mean, some of them are circular. Yeah. Some of them are triangular. Yeah, these days. I wonder if just time has gone on and just like car models, things have changed or maybe the technology has changed or maybe maybe we're seeing visitors from somewhere else now that have their own on. I know people that I believe that saw them that were, they call it tic-tac-check, but you know, it's a sort of a capsule sort of like a vitamin pill or something. Yeah. Like a sphere would be if you stretch it out. They call that tic-tac, but I'm sure the candy manufacturer don't appreciate the analogy. Yeah, they should ride the wave and make a UFO-packaging or something. Swat. Is there anything away for you? Make this hot. Okay, sure. And yeah, there's a gentleman over there that said there was two folders in the briefcase. We have just found number two. Wow. Yeah. That's the whole thing. Yeah. There's Travis's safe down to earth judgment. This is all you. Yeah. Was that your car? Yeah. Nice car. Yeah. I think we'd go over 150 in the quarter mile. It was really. Yeah, it was incredible. Okay, so that wasn't stock. You did some. No, I had over 500 horsepower from the factory that it had enhancements on it beyond that. Yeah, it looked like you were somewhat of a daredele. You're into fighting too. Yeah. My first three bouts, I won by knockout in the first round. No kidding. Yeah. And you know, it was just a minor excursion in the boxing. I was mostly into the Asian martial arts various styles at the time. Now I can really see you come out fighting when you're on that table and jumping off. Oh, so this is, you know, the hanger or other ship. Yeah. And now I'm wondering, was this am I assuming the shape? Because I could only see it from this side. If there was, if it was more elongated, I wouldn't know because I, you know, wouldn't study in it. I just looked over quickly as we left this large enclosure. And this very smooth chrome thing reflecting everything around it. So chrome. So it was really polished metal. Yeah. Okay, I didn't realize that was the configuration. So you came out of the, the craft here. It seemed bigger at this point. So it could have been a bigger craft. I don't know. And then went into yet another room where they rendered me unconscious. How big, well, yeah, you wouldn't know. I'm just wondering how big of a diameter you thought that was, but it would be hard to say with this. I found fascinating the chair. Did you ever sit in the chair? or just, again, there's conflicting stories. - I squeezed into it, yeah. - Did you? Okay. Yeah, and some of the films they have, you just touch it and you saw the star pattern pop up. Was there a screen in front of you or did you see it all around you? - It was all around me, you know, thank you. - So it wasn't something that was projected. It just appeared all around you. - Yeah, but it was only visible while I was in the chair or next to it. If I was farther away from it, in any way, it was just dark. - Oh, all right, that's-- - The stars just appeared or apparently they were just visible to whoever was in the chair. - That's interesting. - Movement moved the star pattern, but not-- - Was there a joystick or something? - Yeah. - Was it, okay. - But not relative to each other, the whole thing moved, you know? Which was kind of affecting my balance for a second, you know? 'Cause everything around me, every reference point of where I was standing was moving. - Did you feel that was like in real time looking outside or did you feel like this is more of a map room? - No, I was in the panic. I wanted out and I was just looking for a button to open a door and get me out of there. - Yeah, I'm sure that's the case, yeah. - Yeah, the arch is that you were talking about. See, from my point of view, I was looking more to the bottom side. So the top side, the surface could have been-- - But it looked like that? - Yeah, and that was giving off a light. It wasn't burning me. It didn't seem hot in that sense. - Did the guys in the truck ever relate to you where it looked like the beam came from? Was it just the side of the ship or something? - Well, they were pretty much saying that. - Okay. - That was also the closest point of surface next to me. So if it was some kind of accumulated energy discharging, it would just be because I was close to it. Now, the artist put a tree there that-- - Yeah, I don't give it. - It would have been the point of discharge, the grounding effect would have gone through it. I was the closest thing. - So before you got knocked out, you're crouching behind there and you hear the thing powering up. While it's powering up, did you perceive or see anything? Was there any kind of distortion outside or any light or glow around the ground or anything that would-- - No, just the vibration. You could feel as much as, say, feel in your body. The high, high frequency that seemed to change with the position of your head and the really low rumble that it just felt in your bones more than through your ears. - I can imagine that must have been just frightening of something. - I was, oh, what did I do? What did I do? You know, on this close, I was thinking it was gonna shoot off before I even got close. That was the normal thing, you encounter wildlife and you jump out and it's gonna be running away from me. - Right. - Hm. Jump suits, they're always wearing jump suits. - Yeah. - So did they-- - Well, except in scary, invading monsters movies, they're always naked. - Yeah. - And then you get to show-- - You have to show the scales. - The gruely monster effect, yeah. - Right. - So the eyes, a lot of times in other witnesses and report solid black eyes, but these were-- - Yeah, they have pupils. And I think had to do with the size of their eyes, made to gather light, extremely dim light, in a low light environment. But in this ambient light here would be way too bright for the eye, that size. So I think it was some kind of a contact lens sort of effect that may have been biologically developed to protect the eye, or maybe something they-- - They may like a insert or something. - Sun glasses on a contact lens, yeah, that kind of thing. - Yeah, that kind of thing. - Was it brightly lit in this room? - Well, it hurt my eyes to look at it, but it was pretty dim. - Hm. - Yeah, but yeah, you're looking back, you're looking straight at the light. - Straight up at it. - Is that about the right height? - Yeah, I think they were shorter than that, but you know. - Okay. - You got to judge the perspective of who's standing where. It was shorter than four feet, but-- - But no noise, and never used their mouths or anything. - No. - And it didn't express emotions, just were afraid of you. - Well, I have a theory about that, you know, that if they truly are telepathic, then facial expression is obsolete. They can say everything to each other without moving the muscles in their face at all. - Do you felt that they felt your intentions? - I don't know how combative and they started that. - If they felt anything, they felt sheer terror and panic and a threat that were in response. - But they get out, you grab the rod or whatever that was, they put their hands up and they just calmly walk out and turn right and go down. They didn't run like they were afraid of you. - Well, they were, they scurried pretty quickly. - Oh, they did, okay. - Oh yeah, again, some of the other stuff I saw had them, you know, calmly walking out. I'm surprised they even turned their back on you with you-- - No, they just, you know, made a run for it. And of course, the physiques here, male and female are quite overemphasized. - That's really interesting. - Artist impression. - Yeah, but these were clearly human compared to anyone else on the count. - You know, interesting, you got a hair length differential longer for the female. That's-- - Yeah, that's very earth custom, you know. But if they were trying to simulate something I would accept as human, that would be the way they'd do it. - It's interesting that they'd have two species working together. - Well, I don't know if they're working together. I don't know. But I knew, at that point, my hysteria prevented telepathic control or communication. And I'm not gonna cooperate with them and I'm gonna die if they don't get me somewhere else for further treatment. So they needed something I would trust. Now, whether this was some kind of creation like a mechanical device or something in a species that looks very human, I don't know. They sure looked like people to me. We grabbed my arm, it felt like a person would who would grab you. - And I think somebody said you describe these guys as a really strong when they held onto you. - Well, I was in a weakened condition, but once they got me down on the table, I started to fight them and I was outnumbered too. - And whatever this device was as soon as they put that on you, you were out. - Probably some sort of anesthetic. You know, no holes connected to it, but maybe it was generated from the part that was being held. I was describing these craft. I just, you know, could glance over and see them. Whether they were actually dischaped or were more elongated, I don't know, 'cause I was very concerned with where you taking me. - Yeah, I can't imagine the feeling of walking out there. I know you're in this completely strange place. There's other-- - And he's not answering any questions yet, but I was controlling that because the helmet may have been preventing him from hearing me or speaking. - So these guys didn't have helmets. - No. - Just, this is the only guy that had a helmet. - Yeah, so, you know, when they got me out of here into the room where these people were, I always renewing my efforts to get an answer. No helmet, as an excuse, I need to know, what are you doing to me? What is this? What were those creatures and all those kind of things? Just babbling and getting no response. Just force me down and put that over my face. Now, probably, My guess is to continue whatever medical treatments might have been underway when I regained consciousness. How did you feel at this point? Did you feel like you were still in pain and damaged from the shock? The air seemed cooler and easier to breathe out there, and I was surprised that the surface was so easy to, it wasn't slippery, you know, as steep as it was, I could walk down it and in a weakened condition. I was like a close-up of one of those eyes. Oh, so here at PI, here's the room I were talking about. Okay, so that's where the guy with the helmet came on. And actually, the viewpoint from right here was probably black. You can only see stars of your standing over here, but I don't know why I couldn't be two places at once. What do we got here? This is two related cases, Bill Herman, 1978. Just here at Rosenberg, 1954, I haven't heard of any of that. But then you and I are not still in some of the genre. No, but that does look like there are guys there. Oh, and as do these guys. Yeah, so these are cases reporting similar things to you. And this was after mine and this one was before mine. I wonder, this looks kind of like I'm more in 1950s. Oh, now I got it wrong. This is '78, so this is the one that's after yours. And this is from the '50s. Hmm. Interesting case, huh? Like I said, I haven't studied any other cases. Hair styles are interesting. Well, what else we have in here? Not sure what that is. I'll let you push the button. Push it. Taking? No, I'm kidding. Yeah, this is it. It's simile of my badge there. Yeah, I had no other surprises in there. Area 52 card. Did you push the button? No, do you want me to? No, we might. I put it closer to you. Yeah. Okay, not sure what that did, but hopefully nothing serious. Well, interesting dossier there. You know, there's so many UFO stories. I've heard other people say that before. There's so many crashes. And you hear the detractors say a very valid point. They travel these great distances and they come here and just crash left and right. And how can there be so many crashes with advanced technology? That's a good question. Yeah, it seems unfortunate that they are better drivers than that. Yeah, if they are. I mean, there's just so many theories, so many thoughts, and so much incorrect information. People recently said they wanted to make a film or documentary on me. And they said, we're going to send you the script. I said, you have the script. And you know, they sent it to me and I looked through it. I said, that has nothing to do at all with what happened to me. I said, well, we got it all off the internet. Yeah, well, that doesn't mean it's a very creative people on the internet. Yeah, it's unfortunately. Yeah, it's an incredible amount of incorrect information. But some of the theories kicked around are fascinating. Some that say that they're not even from space or other planets. They're us from the future coming back to check on ourselves. I heard that theory and I'm not going to argue about it because I'm just sticking to what I experienced. Right, yeah. You tell me. Yeah, that's the standing I take. You hear plenty of things. You might be told things even from officials, but you just have to stick with what you know. You felt you touched you saw and draw the line there because everything else is guesswork. Yeah, or somebody's theory or whatever, it may or may not be true. I didn't personally experience it. I try to just stick to my story and not talk or study the phenomena. For one thing, you and I both know there's a mixture of things that are going on. Some of them are hardcore nuts and bolts, you know, who's like you and I. And also other things that are US government attempts to create something that will pass. And there's also misidentified objects. There's complete hallucinations made up fabrications. Sometimes people, you know, just see a light in a distant sky. And their enthusiasm and emotions embellish, I guess is the word. So there's mistaken identification too. I think the hardcore events are actually a small percentage. I think a very small percentage because the other, the other is so outweigh it and it muddies the water so much. And intentionally, I'm wondered about that. You suppose all these stories are floating around out there just for camouflage. Oh, I'm sure some are. There's no doubt in my mind that some are intentionally there to confuse things. Or just stories put out about witnesses or. I don't know. Do you have a feeling about the intention of the government's position relative to the public? You know, we know that it way back used to be totally nile. It's all nonsense. Everything's made up or crazy stuff. And there's no such thing. And the longer they stuck with that, the more the credibility was being damaged on their part, rather than on the witnesses. So they finally had to say, "Okay, let's concede something in order to reestablish our credibility." So late on a Friday, they say, "Here's gun camera footage from this jet. This is something that has powers beyond anything we have. We don't know what it is. It's not ours." And, you know, like I say, late on a Friday, a news day, news goes dead until Monday, Monday came around and no reaction. Wait a minute. We just made this earth-shattering admission. So the government actually issued that admission, quote unquote, twice, late on a Friday, gun camera footage. Look, there is something that has maneuverability beyond anything we have. It's not ours. We don't think it's other countries either. And they left it open though. I'm just saying what they said, they just said, "This is something that we don't have." So, of course, that would immediately raise the fear of what it is. What if it is something possessed by other countries? I personally don't believe that's the case, but I don't know so it could be anything. I think they have a long way to go to get credibility back. Maybe they've made the mistake of lying for way too long. And I think that started a long time ago. And as I've said, you could then others have said too. You know, if you want to keep the technique. technology, secret, we all understand, that's powerful technology, but you don't have to keep the story secret, okay, we, hey, we found something from somewhere else. They consider themselves responsible. And if there's a high tech thing that they can't thwart, you know, that's their role. We're here to defend you against whatever might be there. You would think it would create a alarm. I don't, I don't think it is a threat, but on the other hand, the military's justification for even looking at this is a threat. So they can study it and be involved in it and all that. If they, if they said it wasn't, then why are they even messing with it? Well, right. So maybe that is allowed to languish the idea that it's a threat, but I don't think it's a threat. You know, these reports have been around for decades. Even longer than that. I think a technology that advanced, if they wanted to remove us and become the dominant species on this planet, we'd never know what hit us. They could do it overnight. I agree with you 100% there. So I don't see a threat to worry about, but also I don't think of any sinister intention on the part of the government with the position they've taken. They're forced to do what they're doing. Well, it's their job. Well, so many people say it's our government. We can tell them, throw up in the books and tell everybody what's going on. Well, we have a couple of others superpowers on the planet that might love to know what we've harvested and is it something that they can overcome or not? And so as long as we keep our stuff secret, they don't dare make a move. It could be some kind of a data sort of balance of power thing that we need to maintain that secrecy just for national security. And you couldn't say, "Well, I'll show you mine if you show me yours." Because are they really giving you the full story or are they just doing, giving you some token pieces of information to get at what you're holding? You know that's what they would do. Yeah, so it can't be done. And so it's probably a pretty good safety chain on the whole mess to have the books slam tight. A lot of people don't understand me on that. And you know, "What? You know, are you taking the government side?" Well, in this case, I think their secrecy is justified necessary. Yeah, I agree with that, but I think they could still just loosen their belts a little bit. Well, it is admitting that there's something which they've done. And the public says, "Well, that's not enough." They say, "Yeah, so what else is new and big deal?" You know, we want more. Like free energy can't do that. Well, you know, it would destroy the monetary systems of the planet to have free energy. What do you think would happen overnight if energy could be free? Just that. Well, we'd have a big problem. Well, especially if we'd have a big problem, any big leap in technology would really collapse our economy, even if we could. Even if they didn't weaponize it, which they would immediately, how can we use this to defeat our enemies? Yeah, that's going to be step one, is turn it into a weapon. But any advanced technology, even if we could teleport from place to place or jump like these guys do, great distances, where you don't need cars suddenly, if you don't need cars, planes or the post office or anything, you can get anywhere you want to do it immediately. Nobody has a job. Everything's a support service for those or part of those. Yeah, same thing with energy. The whole world economy. Yeah, so I don't know what you do with really advanced technology. It's too big. I mean, technology could be too good to release. Yeah, I think the situation, we're stuck with it. People need to be far more understanding than they are to be granted much more than what they're getting. You know, we fancy ourselves as civilized people, you know, we leave the building here, we drive down the streets and everything's fine. But the truth is, from the aliens point of view, the natives are getting restless. So there were a bunch of savages constantly at each other throughout killing each other at phenomenal rates. How many thousand this week? Come on, you know, they can even talk about that on TV and, you know, that's not incredibly alarming. Not anymore, no. Now it's just something. Well, the aliens see it all. And not the polished, optimized side. So aside from being shot out, just seeing us behave towards each other, I can understand perfectly why they would not come down and share advanced technology with us. That would be a foolish thing to do. That's like giving up three-year-old, eloted gun. Yeah, exactly. I make the same move they did. But it, of course, it makes you wonder what they're doing here. Is it just a, is it a Disneyland thing where you should stop by Earth and check out the natives there? Well, the Europeans started exploring the world. They encountered cultures that were, you know, basically in the Stone Age. And the contact was very destructive. They weren't ready for all that came with it, especially not things like modern firearms and whatnot. Yeah. Advanced technology contact is always destructive. It's never worked out well in history. But does that mean that we're just left to stew in our own juices? I think the aliens have a strategy. This is just my own theory. They observe our behavior. And I've made the advance to theory that UFO sightings are not accidental. Where they are just, "Ah, human spotted us again. We're going to have to be more careful." You think they're intentional? I think they're intentional. You know, I think they do everything they're doing here and remain undetected. But what's allowed to be seen is to, as a reminder, you know, a hint. They're just a tease. Yeah. Something, things could be a lot better if we would just get our act together. That'd be great if that was accurate. Well, just the awareness that there's a better way, a different way, a more advanced way, could maybe inspire some leaders to want to pull us in that direction, make us compatible with more advanced societies. I think that's going to be a- A bunch of savages at this point. Yeah. It's going to be a different set of leaders, I think. I don't think anyone's thinking along those lines at the moment anyway. You're not much of a coffee drinker, are you? No. I just drink a hot beverage to keep my vocal cords from getting horse. They would drink coffee? I mean, when you're younger? Back when I was working at the paper mill. I went graveyard shift with every third shift. Go to work at midnight. Got to stay awake somehow. So that was the first time I really drank coffee. My mother was a coffee drinker, but I never drank it till I started doing shift work. That was just to survive the graveyard, the midnight shift. Yeah, I can usually have two cups on the third one. I start getting shaky. I'll definitely do it. I tried to distinguish between what happened, what I can report, actually, accurately, and just what's my own theory, you know. And I'm sure you don't agree with all of my theories, but nobody does. And that's fine and nandy, you know, no problem. Well, they're your theories, you know, and I'm the same way. I draw a hard line between what I know, what I experienced, and what I believe might be true and what I've heard from others. They don't let them ever cross over. It's really, there's just so much incorrect information to dig through. It would be great to know what's accurate and what's not. Because there have been that many crashes, are all those abduction stories real or not. Certainly some are the Betty and Barney Hill story, you've probably heard that. And, you know, I firmly believe that occurred. I firmly believe, you know, what happened to you occurred, and there are so many other instances. It would be great to know. You know, I had an instance that happened when I was probably first grade or, you know, when I was very, very young, that I was awakened in the middle of the night by a small being large eyes, big white head wearing a black jumpsuit, but I didn't call it an alien. It was just a little man. This is when you're like, when you're out, wow, I never heard this. My sister who's still alive remembers me insisting that this happened, and she, but she says, no, it was a dream, it was a dream. And so, all right, believe what you want. You know, I've been alive for 72 years, and I've never believed a dream was real. That really happened. I didn't call it an alien, it was just a little man with big bald head and bald eyes. I didn't call them aliens. In those days, aliens were my favorite Martian, too little antennas. It would sprite from a human's head. What do you remember from that? Just some. It was very hot, and we had huge coolers mounted on the roof of the house, blowing down through the hallway and out, and that was one way to stay cool, so we'd, instead of sleeping in our bedrooms, we'd bring bed rolls and lay in the hallway. So I was awakened by something lifting my bedroll from the bottom end. My legs were lifted into the air, and I woke up. What is this? I mean, that's not a way a dream happens. You know? It's not a dream. You know, this was happening, and I saw the little man that was lifting the bedroll, and I called out, and he dropped it, and turned to run away, and I jumped up and ran after him. And I was unable to catch up with him. He disappeared in the house. We had a huge house, 21 rooms. Wow. Yeah, it used to be the mayor of Phoenix's residence, but my mom was able to buy it in its later years, and convert the upstairs rooms into rooms that she rented out to pay the bills. She had an answering service downstairs to pay the bills. So you lost him in the. There was running amounts. There was upstairs, an attic, and a bottom staircase, and a basement, and spaces under the house that us kids explored and found. There were secret passages all over that house. Sounds like a fun place for a kid. Yeah, it was. You know, we found all kinds of things there, but the little man disappeared, and I spent days trying to find out how he got away. That doesn't sound like a dream to me either. Yeah, and it wasn't a terribly frightening. I didn't call it. Oh, an alien was trying to get me or anything. It was just this little man woke me up, you know? And so my sister doesn't believe me. She thinks I had a vivid dream. She believes that I believe it, but anyway, it was wearing the black jumpsuit that Betty Hill described, so that's. I've never really touted that story very much, because it was just me with no witnesses. Right. And so, take it or leave it. I believe it, but I don't expect anybody to believe anything of this nature, without some sort of evidence, you know? Yeah, that doesn't ask. Witnesses, physical evidence, that kind of stuff. That is interesting, and most of the stories I've heard, the limited stories I've heard of, people at any interaction with aliens, whether it's abduction, whatever, it seems to be more than once. They seem to come early time in their life, and then later on, so I mean, that's. You've probably heard me talk about my Ant Hill theory. You know, if you're walking by an Ant Hill, you don't stop and say, "Hey, I think I'll stop and have a conversation with that Ant right there." Right. That was how I viewed it before, about people saying that aliens came in contact with them. But now, I think that if you saw one when you were younger and one when you were older, they know it's you. That there's a connection between. Yeah, there's a reason. There's a reason. There's a basis for that. They have huge heads and a lot of intelligence, and I draw the analogy to the Utah Data Center. That's a government computer complex covering acres in Utah that requires millions of gallons of water just to keep it cool. And supposedly, reportedly, is recording every electronic transmission on the face of the Earth. Now, if mere humans can keep track of that much information, a super advanced species can probably do it in their head, but the idea that there's a connection between these events is, I think, quite plausible. I do, too. And not accidental, intentional for some reason? No, I think they, once they find a person or interested in a person, I think they just want to keep tabs on them for some reason in some way. But I definitely have not tried to promote the idea that, see, that means I'm something special, interested in me, because I have qualities they like or something. Who knows what their reason might be, but that's definitely not it. I've never sought any notoriety. I never sought out an interview or any sort of public appearance. They always invite me. I don't ever seek them. So, and other than that, I just keep to myself. Yeah, you sound like me. Even the book I wrote, I don't even publish that I wrote a book or advertise it anywhere. People find out it's there and available and they seek me out and order them, but other than that, my wife thinks I'm crazy. Come on, get out there and advertise it. You'd sell a million of them at times. It's not you. Not me, but it's steadily keeping busy for the last 50 years, or 40 some years. Well, I'm glad we had time to sit down and talk. Yeah. Keep the waitress busy, keeping this out. I just wanted to let you know that it's on the house for you this afternoon. Oh, I'll find you. That's great. I'll be thank you for joining the Flying Salsa. Well, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. You too. (upbeat music)