Blondie's "Rapture" with Fab 5 Freddy

(laughing) (bell ringing) - Yes! (laughing) (bell ringing) - Wow. - It's a satisfying right here, right here. (singing) - Wow. - That's a legit, so dope. - Heavy metal solo, right? - Oh my god, this is so special. The stems, rapture, oh, this is special. (laughing) - Don't cry. - Oh, so cute, whoa. I hear you chugging up. (laughing) - We're luxury today, we're talking about a song that blends new wave, post-punk, disco, and a little newcomer named Rap to create a sound emblematic of the downtown New York music scene of the early 1980s. - That's right, T yellow, and in fact, it's the first song to feature rapping to top the Billboard charts. - That's right. And we're back with the man who told us everybody's fly. We're talking one song, and that song is rapture by Blondie with our special guest, Fat Five Freddy. (upbeat music) Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new groupie setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all-day comfy grip, no tightness, no sticky-ness, no residue. Just plump, dewy, hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new groupie setting mist from Mabelie, New York. - Maybe it's Mabelie. - I'm actor, writer, director, and sometimes DJ, Della Riddle. - And I'm producer DJ, songwriter, and music, college, luxury, AKA the guy who whispers. - Interpolation. - And this is one song. - The show where we break down the stems and stories behind iconic songs across genres and tell you why they deserve one more listen. - You will hear these songs like you've never heard them before and you can watch one song on YouTube and Spotify. While you're there, please like and subscribe. - And if you're looking for even more music facts, more conversations, and more us, these two guys, we've got a Patreon now. Go to patreon.com/deal-o-luxury. That's patreon.com, D-I-L-L-L-O-L-U-X-X-U-R-Y. In other words, our names. (laughing) - Do all that spelling. As we mentioned, we have a very special guest with us here today, a pioneer in graffiti who brought that art form and many others to the mainstream, the co-producer and soundtrack co-creator and star of Seminole Hip-Hop Film Wild Style, the first host of YoMTV Rats and now author with his memoir, Everybody's Fly. It's out now, you have to buy, you have to read it. Oh my gosh, please welcome Fab5Fretty in the building. - Hey, hey, hey, hey, thank you for adding me. (laughing) - I wanted to be here. Before we get to the STEM's luxury, you have an early version with none of us necessarily. You have an early version of the song that we found. Tell us more about it. - Well, apparently the earliest version of Rapture was recorded slower at a slower tempo. And while we don't have the demo-- - Like a Christmas theme or something like that? - Oh god, that was-- - Well, so here's what happened to it. It wasn't, it was originally just recorded slower and then they decided to speed it up but then Chris Stein went back to get the early version in order to make with this gentleman right here, and we're about to hear friends. This is "Yuletide Throwdown," based on an earlier slower version of Rapture and featuring Fab5Fretty. - Here we go. - Oh boy. (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) - We be shocking the house and then the rock and the well. I mean, this blew our minds. I think we both said we had never heard that before. - I never heard that before. - We started to look at it. - That came out on a flexi disk in England in 1982. So it was released. So it was this popular magazine. I think it was called "Flexipot." - That's the one. - That would feature a flexible record. - You get a free record. It would come with a magazine. - In the magazine, it was bound in the magazine. It was flimsy little, all the thing. Well, you'd pull it out. I think it was the way you could tear and rip it out and you'd have a soft flexible record that really played. And Chris was like, "Yes, magazine is really popular." But so it was one of those things when I did out, I wish I would have put a little more effort into what I did because it was just this flexi thing, a Christmas thing, but it was a flexi pop, a Christmas thing that they reissued several years ago. And now it's in the world forever. - Now it's in the world forever, I think it's so dope. - I think it's so dope. - Who could have known that slowing it down, then go in a double time on the end of the chorus. I think it's super dope. - But also what blows me away is I did, we didn't do the lyrics together. So it's funny how I laid my lyrics down and Debbie comes and like kind of references what I said and adds in. - Well, you didn't record that at the same time. - No, it wasn't like Santa Claus. - Yeah, it was one of the sunglasses. - Yeah. - That's apparently made him not look like Santa. - Yeah, yeah. I love this recording. And I like the fact that she went it after you. It's like when you hear about like, it's like when you hear about like T.I. recording, something ludicrous here and then it goes in and records it after. - Uh-huh, yeah, no, I like this. So what is amazing that people love it and it pops up every holiday season and people hit me up on, "Hey, oh, listen, I'll go, oh my God." And they sent me images of the cover. - Try to throw down, why throw down? Why don't we tell Christmas to throw it out? - That's a good question to us. Another one, that's one of those big surprises that happened in life. - Well, we love it. Luxury, what can you tell us about the recording of let's say the canonized version of Rapture? - Let's talk about Rapture and how it got made and then we're gonna break down the stems with the gentleman in the room. - Wow. - I was gonna talk about this. What was happening behind the scenes with these people? It's really great to have you here for this. So the recording of Auto-American is Blondie's fifth studio record interestingly, two things. First of all, it was originally called Coca-Cola but they had to change the title because they were worried about, you know, being sued. - Seasons. - Seasons, but the other thing I didn't realize until we were getting into the episode, it's recorded in Los Angeles. - Yes. - Rapture, this seminal New York hip-hop moment, everything we've been talking about is recorded in Los Angeles. - It was recorded at United Western Studio in 6,000 Sunset Boulevard, right over here, now Oceanway Studio. And it's produced by Mike Chapman who we're gonna talk a little bit about. Unsung hero of the episode. Did you meet Mike? Do you have any Mike Chapman stories? - Did you meet Mike once or twice back then? And I just remember Chris raved about him. He was new, the previous guy, I can't remember his name, that worked there. - Richard got her. - Okay. - I don't know what happened. - Eat to the beat and the other records, but they were very pleased. And they were looking for people to improve the sound. They went to step up the quality to sound. I remember Chris didn't tell me they wanted to do music that more people could dance to, wow. And then he goes off and makes the record. - He joins the crew actually for their third record, which is the record where they pop up. Parallel lines is the third record. And just a little bit more about Mike Chapman. He, Australian gentleman who meets Nikki Chin, and we were just talking about Chapman and Chin. In the '70s, they kind of rule the charts with the glam rock movement. They have 19 top 40 hits with the sweet Susie Quattro, but all these early '70s, like massive hit records, are coming out of the collective efforts of Chapman and Chin. And then famously, they do a song with this or lesser known band called Racy, which is, turns into a cover by Tony Bazel called Mickey. - Wow. - So, and that recently is another third generation hit as Apateau with Bruno Mars and Rose. - And Rose. - So, that's, that's all Mike Chapman. And that brings him into the blondies world. And yeah, he produces parallel lines, eat to the beat, their fourth record. And that's where they have their hits. This is Heart of Glass era. It's one way or another. It's hanging on the telephone. - Ooh, boy. - And that brings us to where we are today, in 1980, to record Auto-American, in Los Angeles, a lot of places. (laughing) - Amazing. - All right, let's get into the stems. Luxury, let's start with the drums. Let's start with Clem, Boren Clement, Anthony Burke. - Clement, wow. - Actually, Boren Clement, Anthony Bozowski, changed his name to Clem Burke, incredible drummer. - Good job, Jim. - Let's listen, and then we'll talk a little bit about what we're hearing in this beat. So, he's just laying it down, it's four to the floor. But what happens here, there's two things. First of all, note this motif. It's just a crash on the one in the three. He does that, along with the lyrics, to kind of emphasize several times in the song, what's being sung, in what we're gonna refer to as the pre-chorus or the bridge section. So, that's a motif that becomes kind of a riff that you like, you don't hum it, 'cause it's not a melody, but it's memorable, and it's very iconic to the song. But the other one I want to point out is this one in the high hats, and this is really important, where he starts dropping 16th notes. I'll play it, and then we'll talk about it. (upbeat music) Right there. If you think about it, that's very similar to the rapping cadence. ♪ Fat, fat, Freddie, tell me everybody's fly ♪ ♪ DJ spinnin' us in, my, my, flashes ♪ Once Blondie comes in, once Debbie comes in, and starts rapping, a lot of the same kind of similar dropping of a 16th note starts to happen, mapping to that. And Clem, I was looking into what he might have been inspired by. He said he was influenced by David Bowie's station to station album. And as soon as I saw that quote, I think I knew exactly what it was. Check this out. This is Dennis Davis drumming on David Bowie's Golden Years from 1975. See if you hear a connection in how the high hats are being played. - So he's playing 16th notes, but there's an emphasis. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's. - It makes it almost more break-deep. - Yeah. - So there's that drop 16th note that is another motif and becomes kind of a distinctive pattern. 'Cause everything else he's doing is a discopy. It's just forwarded the floor on the kick in the snare. So this is where he throws a little sauce in there, a little clamberk sauce. - A burp. - Yeah, and then I'll just play for you one more of these crash motifs and I'll throw in the vocals so you can kind of hear what he's doing. (upbeat music) - So you can hear the drums and the vocals kind of have this rap poor. - Yes. - Because they're kind of communicating with each other. - Yes, yes. - A rap. - A rap poor. (laughing) - If you want a rap-chorus rap poor. - Let's move on to the bass. What's going on with the bass in this song? - All right, well, this is Nigel Harrison on bass, British member of the band. - Yes. - Are you friends with Nigel? - I knew all the band members at that time. I wasn't friendly with him with Clem Burke, Nigel Harrison, Jimmy DeShtree. These guys are great. That was blondie. - Man, I'm so, the phomo is just gonna be like, all out of the ring today. - All out of the ring today. - Well, let's listen to, like basically, he's playing a two-bar loop the entire time, except for this pre or bridge section. So we'll play you the loop. Keep in mind, it's a six and a half minute song. So he's laying this down in a pre-looping era, or at least they didn't for this record to my understanding loop. But he's just performing this sick bass line the whole time. Let's listen. There's something about it that's so perfect. It's two bars. I've done my whole musical career. I've been looking for, like, the perfect loop. I just love it when there's two bars that is just infinitely gratifying like that. And I think what's happening is a little bit, there's a question mark on the first half. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 'Cause that lands on the minor third. And then the second half is the response because that, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And you're back to the root. - Yeah. - And then you're ready for the question and then the answer and the question and the answer. So it's this really gorgeous two-bar cycle for the entire time. - Wow. - It has that same sort of, like, I'm walking cadence that so many of the classic year at disco songs have. I think this part of what makes them remind all of us of, like, New York and just walking. I mean, like, that opening scene in the like, fever, yeah. He's walking. It's just, it feels like walking music, you know? I don't know. - The cadence of a brusque New York man statue. - I could see that. As you say it, I see them walking now. - Yeah. - I can see the trash cans not getting picked up. You see the graffiti on the walls. - Yes, yes. - Well, let's move on to the guitar and this is, there's so much here we want to unpack. So there's definitely three, at least, guitar parts in the song. And I'm pretty sure it's Chris Stein and Frank Infanty, the two guitar players. But I think Mike Chapman, the producer, also might be playing a role. Let's listen and break it down and I'll tell you why I think that. So here's one of the, at least three guitar parts, the whole note chords that the song begins with. (upbeat music) And it sounds like a keyboard, but I-- - I thought that was a totally different instrument. - It might be two guitars actually harmonized. I'm not exactly sure, but it's gorgeous. Okay, so it should be said at this point as wonderful as that is. There is a quote from Mike Chapman, producer, Mike Chapman, who said that they were at the band Blondie were quote, "Musicly the worst band I ever worked with." So I'm not trying to throw shade here, but this is, here it must be said that part of why we think Mike Chapman is playing a role in the song. First of all, he said that they were quote, "The Blondies were tough in the studio, real tough." None of them liked each other except Chris and Debbie. And there was so much animosity. They didn't give a fuck about anything. They just wanted to have fun. Didn't want to work too hard getting it. - Whoa. - The only great musician among them was Frankie and Fancy, the guitar player, the third guitar player in the song. We're about to hear his part. He's an amazing guitarist. The rest of them are all over the bloody place. - In defense of Blondie, never thought I had to say that. - But in defense of Blondie, in the CBGB, Max's Kansas City days, I feel like that was part of the punk aesthetic was that you weren't supposed to be too good at these instruments. - I wonder how much in retrospect we kind of ascribed to that. I think they were trying. - Oh, no, I think there's effort. And by the way, they have the track record. Went back when I thought I wanted to be in a band. I was like, "I'd like to be in a band with Blondie." I literally thought about Blondie because I thought that their eclectic nature from tight is high, to heart of glass, to rapture, to call me one way or another. I was like, they do so many different types of music. - Very incredible songwriters. I'm sure to see them live. I mean, I'd kill to go back and see him at CBGB in '75, '76. But it's funny when you read these Mike Chapman quotes, these are all from interviews on Sound on Sound magazine. And then you go back and read some of what Blondie says about him. It's like, what are they saying about him? Well, Debbie says, quote, "Mike is a real hot chili pepper." - Okay. - And enthusiastic, he would strive for the technically impeccable take. So we would do take after take. And when you read that in a magazine, it's just sort of black and white words. - Yeah. - When you get kind of the like Mike Chapman, what he's been saying about them. - Sounds like he's a perfectionist. And they're the opposite of that. And I like some grimy DIY, it ain't perfect, but let's go home. I like some of that. - But they work together as well. - But they work together on these hit records over and over again. So clearly that dynamic worked. Blondie understood that they needed a little bit of that crack in the whip in the studio. - Interesting. - I think you were in a group called Great, ever so briefly. - Very good. - Very good, yeah. - Michelle Basquiat. - Yeah. - And who was the third member? - It was Michael Holman. It was several of them. - From the canal's own days. - Correct. - We got the book, this will all make sense. But this is artists being artists. And sometimes not being the best musicians on their instrument, but trying out ideas. A big part of the punk thing was like, you didn't need to know how to play your instrument. And I was, some of the things when I'd read some of these bands saying that made me think I could have a conversation with these people about graffiti as art in this new kind of rap music, rapping over the beats. - I think so much. - So, yeah. - I mean, there's a fact that DJs were touching the vinyl. You weren't supposed to touch the vinyl. - You were not supposed to touch the vinyl. - That's what you're thinking itself. - Anywhere near the vinyl. - Yeah, but your mom or your dad would end real mad. - Nah, people you would get seriously disciplined for that, but that was when again, a big innovation that I think flashed help with need to really put your hands on a record. And it's interesting though, because in early hip hop and at early hip hop parties, the feel that those records had. It was a different energy and added sort of a patina to the music. And when hip hop began to really get refined the idea of sampling and Molly Mar and those guys. Gearing what we refer to as the popcorn on the records was like a key ingredient, because when Sugar Hill put out its first records, they would just have bands play note for note. What was the popular thing that the DJs were playing? And it would be a little too clean. Didn't have to make a grid that grime. And people like the bomb squad later. And Molly Mar initially knew that was an ingredient. - Did you get from here? I feel like he leaves the dirt on the record. - That is a connection to the punk rock thing. 'Cause you wanna have the aesthetic of the music, the authenticity of it is baked into how it is recorded. And ideally, it's not recorded super well. It's not pristine and high-fi. You wanna hear the chops, you wanna hear the mistakes, the flubs, the not every notes being hit. That's endemic. It's part of both hip hop and punk rock. They both share that. - That's true. And also in hip hops pursuit, particularly in the 90s, of those original records that were sampled, also what they studied and learned about with the recording techniques, as opposed to a mic on every single instrument, multiple mics on the drums. - They were making a stealing Dan record. They were trying to go for something more. - Correct. - But the way I understand a lot of those 60 soul records, it would be one or two mics. It was so amazing. - In the room, yeah, for the whole band. And so when people are like, how do we get this? How do we recreate like when the dab came? - Yeah. - I read that day was learning and there began a pursuit of the early mics and amps with tools. - They bought all that same gear that was used - All the gear that was used to really get - Quite thing to do. - Yeah, this is what Mark Ronson and the Dab Kings all did for the Amy Winehouse record. The capture that 60s authentic feel, 'cause the authenticity is in the songwriting. It's in the vocal, but it's also in the recording. All of those kind of signifiers equal, this is real. This is authentic. - Yes, and to get the quality of so much of that great music that we love, which hip hop particularly wanted to sample and extend. There was, people began to understand how that process went down, which I think was fascinating. Which definitely connects to the punk aesthetic. Because punk essentially was rebelling against the way established rock had gotten to-- - Rock and the-- - Yeah, it was all about itself. And they were getting too slick and too much, too many microphones in the studio, on the drums and all this. I was like, let's, let's, let's seven minute rock songs. You know, it's like too much, too many long solos. - Yeah, yeah. - So they dialed back on a lot of that. I think that was, Blondie was blending in a bit of that. Hence the confrontations with Chapman, not getting that is apparently-- - The irony of that is that in this punk rock, hip hop disco song, which we're in the middle of, which is inventing this blend in real time, We do have this. this crazy wailing guitar solo by Frank and Fancy. Let's listen to it. You almost forget that it's there until you're listening. - Yes, yes. - And you're like, "This is the Van Halen song. What's going on here?" - Oh shit. - Frank and Fancy, according to Mike Chapman, the most talented member musically speaking. - Oh, he's only. - He's guitars. (laughing) (phone ringing) - Yes. (laughing) (phone ringing) - It's a satisfying right here, right here. (humming) - Wow. - Heavy metal solo right here. (laughing) - That's a joy. - Don't cry. - Oh, so careful. (laughing) - Listen, let's double back for a second to talk about how that second section that I've alluded to a few times. This song is a groove, but it's broken up by this moment where it goes to this other place, right? Where the crash goes. Where we just started the second half of that solo. I've been calling it the bridge or the pre-chorus. What's happening that's interesting, it kind of harkens back to two previous episodes of the show. We have a "Fridgian Moment," go back to our Nas episode, with a flat two, and I'll play that for you now, and I'll explain what that means. Here are the chords, and I'll walk you through what you're hearing. So the song is any minor, and then when we get to the stabbing lightly that part, we go into, we go to a flat two. This is our "Fridgian Moment." It's strange. It'll be even stranger when we get to the vocals. (upbeat music) That's a clever little part they added to break up just the groove. We go up a half step, and that's why in that moment it goes, "It's a little bit like, whoa, it's a little interesting and unusual sounding." - It's funny. When you just play those two parts together, I feel like I'm on a Hawaiian vacation. - You really need the rest of the rhythm section to make it feel like a dirty disco song. - Just those chords on their own, are it's a half step up from E minor to the F. So it's a flat second, and that's our "Fridgian Moment." Again, go back to our Nas episode for a deeper dive into what that means, but that's part of what's happening in this song to kind of give it a little more flavor in that moment. - I want to hear the two-player bells. I think that I really enjoy the bells on this. - Okay, just a heads up. In this part of the stems, there's a bunch of stuff that's baked together. So we're going to hear Jimmy Destry literally playing actual two-bular bells that were in the studio, but you're going to hear it mixed together with some percussion and as we go along some guitar and some other things. So here are the two-bular bells. (upbeat music) - These are stand-up bells, like in an orchestra. - It's such a big part of the record. So that's, I believe Jimmy Destry's only contribution to this song. - But what a rain contribution. You know, we'll really go back and listening to the-- - That's a great sound. - When we were listening to this, we got this reminded of like always something there to remind me, which is a Canadian's classic, like there's something about like the strong bells. - Yeah. - There's two-bular bells. - Yes, I love hearing that, like just isolated like that. That's a key part of the record. - It's so clean. - Very key. - Be clean. - I never know. - Christmas-y. - Yeah, Christmas-y, right. - Maybe that's where the Yuletide idea came from. - Yes. - Yeah. - The duty Yuletide. - Absolutely. - Throw down. Yes. - Imagine setting your makeup. Then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all-day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue. Just plump, dewy, hydrated skin. That still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. - Maybe it's Mavily. - But by the way, who's doing like the. - I think it sounds like somebody's like padding on their leg or something. What was that? - Well, there's claps, which I mean, I read an interview where Clem Burke, you know, took credit for having the idea to do the clapping rhythm. But it sounds like a bunch of people doing it. Might've been the whole man. Let's listen to that, though. (upbeat music) - Definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely. - That's kind of so. - Yeah, like Ambo makes you call that. - It sounds like the Ambo and the controls would play on the street. - It kind of fits because like, whether you're doing the double dutch or like the Ambo, like, that's the kind of street scene that just makes it sway into the song. - Ah, and I love that. It's so strong. - I wonder who's doing that in the studio. - I wonder if she's-- - Somebody's really talented. - There's even more like Latin percussion coming up here in this next section, which is very New York sounding. It's my-- (upbeat music) - Whistles. - Whistles. - Timbales. - Love it. Oh yeah. (upbeat music) - I'm gonna offer up. I think those bells are like a defining quality of the song, but the song would also just not sound quite as New York without the saxophone. The saxophone is such like a-- - Let's talk about the saxophone. - Late '70s, early '80s. It reminds me of the "Was it an accident?" New York's all right. If you like saxophones, like the '80s fell back in love with the saxophone in like a major way. - It's so New York. - Maybe it was a function of the jazz. - It was so New York. - Yeah, the guy in the subway playing a saxophone, like that guy's on it. - With a leg out the window on a hot New York night with a cigarette eye, that image. - Very true. - You've got the girls doing handbone. You've got the whistles from like Spanish harmonies. - It's a very New York song made in L.A. - Yeah. - Made in L.A. - It's not forget. - Here's another recurring character on one song. The saxes are played by our good friend. We don't actually know him, but we talk about him a lot. That's Tom Scott. We've mentioned on many episodes. - Yes, Tom Scott. - Tom Scott. - He's on a lot of records. He was on Steely Dan on that episode playing The Lyricon. He's also playing The Lyricon on Billie Jean by Michael Jackson. - Yes. - Captain and Tineel's do that to me one more time. (upbeat music) - Yes, he was good. - And he's playing the sax solo on "Do You Think I'm Sexy" by Rod Stewart. (upbeat music) - And for the purposes of hip hop, he has a song called "Today" which famously gets sampled into "They Remind This Over You." - Bye-bye. (upbeat music) - That's how we like to go in the 90s. (upbeat music) - The Rocks. - Yes. - Yes. - Yes and one. - Possibly the greatest jazz. Sample, if you want to call it jazz. Presumably the greatest sample of the 90s. Sort of set the 90s off in the 90s. - Once a year we give this gentleman his flowers on the show and this episode is no exception. He's playing three different lines that he's, it's him overdubbing himself. So he's playing three sax parts. That's what you're hearing in the mix. It's too, so great to hear all this. - Too in Unison and one of them. - This is like the line of notes on steroids. (laughing) Please continue. - We do not love steroids, very late. - So he's playing two tenor sax lines in Unison. So one note, the same note twice. And then he's playing a harmony. There's a third sax which is playing a fourth underneath it. So there's a harmonization underneath the lead line. So I'll play that for you in the mix. The song would not be the song without Tom Scott. (upbeat music) It's swinging. Is that a little behind the beat? - Yes. - Behind the beat. - Oh my goodness, this is so great. - I love this so much. He's breaking Rapsha all the way down. - The way's the smallest compound. (laughing) - All right. Well listen, we're gonna take a quick break. But when we get back, we'll hear the very first rap first to top the Billboard charts. And we'll hear how Fat Five Freddy's friendship with Blondie brought that band to the Bronx. And in turn, brought Raps into the mainstream. Stick around, we'll break it down. (upbeat music) - All right, welcome back to one song. Well, it wouldn't be the Rapshaar without a rap. But before we get to the rap, let's talk about the singing. I will admit that in the many times I've heard this song, I don't think I knew much more than Rapshaar, like her delivery is sort of whimsical. It's sort of like, I saw one place it was described as rapturous, like sort of intentionally sort of like, more flowy than like punching out the words, like. - Well, it's really the kind of floaty. It's like a little druggy, it's like slow. There's not a lot of words, there are very few words and they're drawn out, if you listen that way, which is a nice contrast to the rap section. So then it gets kind of, the cadence picks up. - Totally, but when she just say, yeah, I think I was singing like, "Tell us to tell," I had no idea she was singing, "Toe to toe," let's hear a little bit of Ms. Debbie Harry's isolated vocals. - Yeah. ♪ To toe to toe dancing very close ♪ ♪ I need my didn't rapture ♪ - Gorgeous, gorgeous. - I mean, that vocal might be underrated. - Yeah, listen, what a great voice. - Oh, I love it so much. I mean, that's not easy to do. - When you hear Debbie Harry's isolated vocals, what does it make you think about? No, since you know the person who's saying it. - Well, you know, she's a real consummate artist and you know, she not long ago, she was working with a jazz band called the Jazz Passengers and was recording and you could hear that jazz love or the way she just used her vocal in a jazzy kind of way. You see it's like a- like a smoky kind of jazzy voice when you think about it. - Yes, very smoky. - Use a total instrument, really amazing just to hear it. I say like, this is so dope, I love it. - So one thing I want to point out in the bridge melody, so that's the frigian part where we go up to (singing) that little moment, which I broke down a moment to go in the music has this sort of jazzy moment to it. In particular, I was noticing how rapture, that half-step down gives us another illusion to another episode, go back to our "Pain at Black" episode. It's the same harmonic minor scale, which evokes a kind of easter-ness to it because you would normally have that be, normally if it were a regular minor scale. She was saying rapture, but she's only going a half-step rapture, and that really takes us kind of out of the Americas, and kind of like maybe even out of the 20th century. That one-half note choice does a lot of work emotionally and sonically, I think, to our associations with what scale she's chosen. I don't know that she's done this consciously. I have a feeling a lot of what she does is spontaneous and artistically improvisational and just demuse, but that is the effect part of what the effect that I think it has on the listener. - Very cool, yeah, I could definitely get what you're saying. (laughing) Play that one part against the court so you can really hear it. ♪ Like me, I need light and rapture ♪ - She's bending her voice almost like a guitar player bending the note, it just has so much expression to it. It's rapture. - Yes, yes. - It's almost like sinister, like to use the word you used for that. - I like that, I like the sinister. - Yes, yes, yes. I think it's ironic that she sings people hypnotized and she sounds hypnotized. - And when she says hypnotized, it hypnotizes the listener. - Yeah, that's the words. - I can't look away. - So by the way, the instrumental track, when they were done, they just had an instrumental track with singing, it wasn't a rap yet. And Chapman says that when he asked Debbie what she envisioned for the rest of the song, 'cause there was this huge four minute long gap. She stopped singing in the second verse after like two minutes. And then there's nothing until the very end. That was all they had when they recorded the song originally. So Mike Chapman says, when I asked her what she envisioned for the remaining two thirds, she said, a rap. (laughing) I had no idea what she was talking about. Rap was new then. Debbie played me a few references. I said, great. It's crunch time. Go out there and rap. She said, well, and she said, well, I have to write it first. So they hadn't even written anything yet. So she and Chris went off as she says, with a pen and pad, in 10 minutes they were done. Debbie Harry says, there weren't any rules to writing a rap at that point. So I just wanted to capture the feeling we experienced in the Bronx. So all the lyrics about the Bronx experience, do you want to talk about that? So, yes, so I'm in the mix with these people's TV party crew. I'm hanging with them. I'm telling them about this scene. How I feel. It's comparable to the new wave and the punk scene. And everything felt like it was some underground stuff that was cool and edgy. And so it came to a point where I had met. In fact, when I first met Grandma as the flash, I meet the guy who was their manager. It was an ex-cop, his name was Ray Chambers, about six foot six. Quite formidable about a guy and a met him. And at first, I'm telling him who I am. And he thinks it's a bunch of shit. But then when I show him some magazines and some write-ups that reference what I'm trying to do. And he's like, okay, what's up? So I go, listen, I want to bring these my friends up to the Bronx to experience this. I want to something that's safe and make sure everybody is going to be cool and whatever. So there's a gig he's promoting at, well, it's managing flash and slash promoter at a P.A.L. That's a police athletically, kind of like a community gathering place in communities. And there was one in the Bronx on 183rd and Webster. And there's a lineup of different groups performing like Cole Crush and Mercedes ladies are performing in a fantastic Romantic 5. And I get a whole group of Chris Debbie, some other people from the TV party, Coug Lennon Bryant. - I just get up there, take the trainer. - No, we took some cabs up and we took an OJ back. We acted two OJs, which was sort of like Uber in the hood. - Yeah, I know, that's what it was. - Decent cars, but what made OJ car service really cool was a lot of the drivers had tapes from the live parties. And a lot of the clientele were young folks or people in street corner pharmaceuticals that had the money to book a car for an extended period of time. A lot of the early wraps from these parties, guys with reference getting into an OJ. And you know, I have a whole OJ man. - Yeah, it was an OJ on hold, man. You was able to have it for one or two hours or more. - It was for you. - Yeah, wait for you. That was like, you were like, that was incredible. That was like rolling around with a limo driver or something. It was a big deal, but that was the thing. So when we left, they ordered us a couple of OJs. We went downtown and everybody-- - So you were up there in the Bronx with Chris and Debbie and they were witnessing their first live wrap experience. - Yeah, it was incredible. And when we were walking in, it was a bunch of young kids in the lobby. And this wasn't a scene where any white folks ever went. So they were like, yo, the Beatles are here. They thought, well, the popular dance on the hip hop scene at the time was a dance, which is called the Paddy Duke, which was an older TV show that would be in reruns on local channels. And I guess in the opening of the show Paddy would do this kind of go-go dance to some 16 stuff. And kids was like, yo. And so Debbie's like, it's Paddy Duke, you know what I'm saying? And then the movie, the 65 white people in the old light. You know, the movie, the jerk, we had recently been out and ate the Atlanta Bryant, that's the, that's the, he's the jerk, look, the jerk. - With the white hair. - Paddy Duke and the jerk, and the jerk is the jerk here. They were just cracking up and snapping, you know what I'm saying? Goofy, white people, look at that. Paddy Duke is shit. - You can hear people chuckling and laughing. - Hollywood is empty tonight, they're all in the Bronx, you know? - It was incredible. - It was hilarious. - But I remember when I saw Debbie, you know, a few days later, and we hooked up, she was like, oh my God. The Mercedes ladies had on these cool outfits and these little western hats. And Debbie was like, man, let those, those girls were great. You know the Mercedes ladies? What they had on, so I was like, oh wow. They were picking up on stuff. - They were picking up on it. - And felt the energy, felt the groove, you know? And went out to work with Mike Chapman in LA, not long after. - It's such a credit to Debbie and Chris that they were, as people, they were open-minded, they were pulling in their influences, true New Yorkers, like at the crux of all of it. - They were. - Understanding that this is this Hodgepodge cultural stew, all of it is beautiful and good and interesting. And let's mix it up in our music. - That's so true. - And they were the most prominent, biggest selling band out of that whole scene. And they so connected with what I was trying to do. And they work with a lot of other people on Chris' label, Animal Records. He worked with a lot of really underground other acts, like Walter Steading, who was a part of the TV party, really just interesting. And the first people to buy paintings for me in New York as well as Jean-Michel. They bought work and hired us numerous times. It was another video or song that I thought could have been a u-chit called The Hardest Part. And they rented a giant seamless room. And me, Lee, and Jean-Michel Boschiat. Spray painted this whole room. I drew some soup cans and Lee did pieces. And it was a room with Debbie actually put on a black wig. And she had like a wild, crazy cut up, Barbara Rella looking kind of outfit and performed amidst all this graffiti. And it's just hard. ♪ And I'm falling for the best ♪ ♪ Try to be blind ♪ ♪ I'm trying to bring a pass ♪ ♪ 25 times ♪ ♪ To the hardest part ♪ ♪ Which I thought could have been just as big a rapture ♪ ♪ But rapture was first out there they could have did it ♪ ♪ But they never really sit as a single ♪ Man, I just wish I could have been friends with y'all back then. That would have been so much frickin' fine to just hang in there. It was incredible. Now we've got to talk about the rapture. I'm going to give credit to my co-host Luxury. He was the person to point it that's out because this is the first hip-hop song to go number one on the charts. Yeah. And the first words wrapped are your name. Congratulations. You are the first pop history for that reason alone and for several other major reasons. You are the first hit rap lyric. Exactly. Let's hear the rap. ♪ Fat, fat, Freddie ♪ ♪ Tell me everybody's fly ♪ ♪ DJ Spinning us in my mouth ♪ ♪ Flush is fast ♪ ♪ Flush is cool ♪ ♪ Fronts was a pop ♪ ♪ Flush ain't or do ♪ I didn't stop this, man. I know it's so hard to stop. It's so crazy. I have questions. Okay. First of all, we do want to confirm because there's been debate online about the flash. I think now we are agreed that flash is grandmaster flash. Oh, without question. Yeah. No, but there were people online who was like, "Oh no, flash was a downtown drug dealer who they knew." And if you order from him, he would show up fast. Wow. Don't shoot the messenger. That's crazy. I never heard that. You never heard that. It was out there. The other thing that's under great debate is the Francois line. Francois Cepat, "Flashet No Do." Okay. It's not quite French. It's a little bit French. It means Francois, Sépa, kind of like, the guy called Francois isn't great. You know, it's a little bit implying that. - Okay. - But then the rest of it's not quite, doesn't really mean anything. - Okay, I always took it as sort of like French gibberish to sort of sound like sort of fancy in sort of like an early 80s way. - Okay, but there are people online who say, "No, she was talking about Francois K." - Francois Kavorkian. - Francois Kavorkian saying that his type of DJing, which was sort of a style of disco DJing, was not that great, we like Flash. - That Flash is cool. - Francois, not cool. - Wow. - Which, you know, do we say definitively now that we know that she's not talking about Flash? - I'm sorry to set the record straight. - I mean, I would say it's definitely about Grandmaster Flash. That's why he was fast as I would be explaining what was going on on the early rap/hip-hop scene. Him, Flash being a DJ and being very fast at it, hence the name Flash. - Makes so much sense. - It was super significant. And these were things that they kind of like, just put into this record, which was an echoing of things that I shared along with everybody's fly on the early hip-hop scene. It was fly guys and fly girls. That was slang of the scene at that time. And that's what I told them. So it really verbatim, quoting me if you feel. Here's what Fab told me. - You, by the way, it's big of which, and by the way, I think we've also said that like, to our knowledge, nobody was taking shots at François K. So the first hip-hop, number one is not also the first record, so we're not saying that. - Yes. - Do you think at the end of recorded in New York that you would have jumped on the track? - No, 'cause I wasn't, listen, the amazing thing and I'll definitely share with you what happened was basically, went away, went away, it was going for a couple of months, making this record. It came back, I'd been hanging out with them quite regularly, having these sessions. Them helping me advise on things that I wanted to do. I'm trying to emerge as an artist, as a cultural shaker and whatever, whatever. And so they basically said, "Oh, come by the house, "we've got some records, we wanna share with you "some of the new stuff we've done." But they play me a couple of songs from the new auto-American album and I'm digging it. Then Chris says, "Okay, here's something different." But so I'm raptured. They're really watching me intently. - Yeah, they want your approval, probably. - Well, Debbie starts off singing, I love it. And then, you know, the intro to the song and then she starts rapping. And I am shocked. I'm also flattered and kind of humbled 'cause what I immediately think is they were just goofing around in the studio and did this track as like a little playful throwaway just to show me that they really got it. 'Cause Chris didn't prep me like, we're gonna try this rapping thing. I rap song to make sure you think this will pass muster or whatever, whatever. Well, I listened to that and I was just blown away that I felt that just playfully, they had did this as a throwaway, but just to show me that they really got all this up 'cause I hear my name, I hear, I'm telling them about flash, she's the fastest and this is cool. And then she references, have your party on TV. That's a reference to TV party and stuff like that. Something like art is so cool, so sweet. And that's how I left it. That's what I literally thought was the case. Until two months later, I'm in Paris for the first time. After second art exhibit in Milan, I'm hanging out with Chris and Tina from the talking heads that have a new group that they've recently launched called the Tom Tom Plus. We leave a party together with David Byrne and the B52s. We're all hanging out in Paris at the same time. We're on our way to get out of here. You definitely don't want to be there. Jesus, all this so much foam up. Come on, it's crazy. And we're in a cab and I'm in the cab and we're heading to La Coupola, whatever to eat. And this song comes on and this guy's cab. Wow. And I go, this is fucking cab driver. Get it out of here this summer 'cause this is the thing I thought they did just as a gov and Chris France says, so Freddie, that's the new blondie single. That's the new single. I'm like, that's how I learned that this is a real record. And then minutes later, they went on to do wordy raping good themselves with rapping in it. Who I did. Right? ♪ In papers, words and books, words on TV, words for books, words of comfort, words of peace, words to make the fighting cease, words to tell you what to do. ♪ They sure did wordy rapping, which is really dope. Those records that they put out. That first Tom Tom Cup is an all-time man. It's insane. It's insane. That's one of my top three songs of all time, I would say. Wow. They hit it right. So I was like, oh, wow. You do what they were beginning to pop. And they were a couple with the part of the talk that has been in the rhythm section, whatever. And that was just incredible. And that's when how I realized this is a real record. It was shocking and surprising. And then I began to go like, wow, how's this going to work? 'Cause the rap is great, but it's a little kind of weird. It's different. It's a little slightly goofy if you will. It's not, you know, but it's remarkably, it goes on to be number one. And set the table for a lot of what would soon come. Absolutely. Because nobody knew this was a whole movement. There was a scene. People had heard the first couple of rap records that came out, including rappers that were like, unless you knew, people thought this was some kind of one, two off, three off. Kind of a four. Well, you know what they all called it a bad. What you're underscoring, too, is like what I'm thinking about is how like, it really ought to have been a novelty record. It should have been a Dr. Demento record. Thank you. But something about it was a little bit richer than that, like a little deeper. And it's lasted, stood the test of time. It's 45 years old. It's incredibly true, but what helped, great deal is the gentleman I talked about earlier played the hell out of it. Frankie Crocker on WBLS, who was the arbitant. That gave it cred. Another unsung hero for this episode. Another unsung hero, a big influence on me and my musical taste. And boom, that helped a lot. And the record connected with people across the spectrum. It wouldn't be too, some years later, when I was hosting your MTV Raps and the initial press on who the hell I was, began to hit. This is the guy that Debbie mentioned. They're talking about, right? On Raps, she was like a lambacidor. Kind of a cultural ambassador. It was sort of like an Easter egg or a piece of the puzzle that finally fit. Now it precedes you wherever you go on planet Earth. Fab 5 Freddy. Everybody knows that lyric. But people would butcher, you know how it is with music. And I'm sure you can relate. Well, you're singing along with a record and you're saying the wrong shit. Absolutely. But you don't care. You're just singing. It's my joint. People would butcher. It would be fly, fly, Freddie, and fly, fly, Freddie. That's the monitoring. You know, it would be like, dude, it would be like, yeah. Let's see how I could get my name, all butchers. Let's get started at Sacro Siliac. Oh my gosh. That crazy word. Yes. In the audio version of my book, Everybody's Fly, I talk to several people that are key in my story and it's in the storytelling. And I got to do that with Kristen Debbie from Blondie. So this is your head, it's in the audio book. And I never knew at one point we were talking. And I said, well, you know, tell me how the whole Raps your song came together. They were laying in bed. And Chris just said, hey, Debbie, let's make a rap song and call it rapture. Literally a dad joke, literally a pun. Literally. And Debbie says, that's a great idea. And Chris goes on to writing most of the lyrics, which surprised me because Debbie sells the song. I never checked the credit. I'm sure you guys get all the details. But I just figured that, but then it made sense because it would be Kristen. I would spend most of the time hanging with giving him all these nuances about what's going on on the rap scene, soon to be the hip hop scene. It's funny that you bring that up because I will say that growing up, you know, in a different era of hip hop, I assume this was like a freestyle, you know what I mean? Like it's the idea. But you know, once you figure out where its placement is in rap's development, you're like, no, someone definitely wrote this out. You break up the part about Mars, which we want to hear some more from. You had a verse about Mars that you think, one of my rap's that I had was, I was born and raised on the planet Mars where I used to chill and rock with the stars. So one day I got bored and decided to split. I came to Earth on a rocket ship crash landed in this park. It was a full moon out and very dark. And body was wrapped in upon the mic. And then I got up on the mic and I rocked on right and blah, blah, blah, blah. So that was just a little example. I'd get confused, hey, is what a rap sounds like? This is my little rap, but you know, man from Mars. It might have had a little influence on what Debbie and Chris brought to this rap. So maybe because they were friends with you. They brought that rap. Yeah. And it comes right down and it lands on the ground and out comes a man from Mars. And you try to run but it's got a gun and you shoot your dead and you eat your hair. And then you're in the man from Mars. But also, definitely I think it was a bit of an inspiration. But Chris was also into sci-fi, into B movie, the sci-fi, planet Mars, you know, plan nine from outer space and stuff like that. So it was just a nice perfect gumbo. Yeah. It was a nice mix of cool stuff in a unique way as opposed to trying to be like a New York rapper. They put their own little personality and flavor in sure. And it should be said, this is before rap got so codified that like, no, that's a nods verse. So that's a Jay-Z version. Like a lot of what went into rapper's delight for example were little bits of pieces of rap's from other rappers from before the sugar Well, a huge part of it The whole verse a big-backed hanker's Right as a Native guy That's the cast is lyrics That's what he's spelling out his name His name And sing that song Check it out, I'm the C-A-M-S-N The O-V-A-N The rest is M-V-L-Y You see I go by the gold of the dock of the mix Yeah, I mean, even when he says, you know, I'm the C-A-S He spells out castin' over the fly That was Grandmaster Caz's, you know, other rap name - I can't spell about that when he heard that song Do the numbers in it, too You know, Caz is dealt with that I think in such an incredible way And he's got a whole rap about that situation Which is epic and incredible I think he's been really classy about it It's a very unfortunate situation And he wasn't compensated I know you guys get into the splits and all that Which is super significant But unfortunately that was I think a part of Sugar Hill's legacy Is they unfortunately didn't, they weren't as equitable as they should have been With their acts I think they would have moved better They could have been the biggest that ever did it Because everybody would have flooded it, would have ran to them To put their, you know, all the rappers that would come They would have did good business Everybody would have essentially wanted to be their ghost writer Because they had this big problem at that time Yeah, there's another little story that I just wanted to share briefly I don't want to do too But Debbie Harry Blondie was pretty much a Debbie Harry solo thing He got to host Saturday Night Live And at that time they got a pick Who the support band would be if you will And at this time we'd been friends a good while I've explained a lot of the nuances and what was going on But still there was no major spotlight on this rap thing On this early hip-hop thing And they said Freddie, we want to bring one of these groups on That you've been telling us about And I was like, wow, I said, well man, grandma has to flash And if your is five or incredible The cold crush are amazing, the fantastic romantic Five, the fantastic freaks But I said there's one group with four males and a girl Out front, the funky four plus one And the girl is Shah Rock And he's like, oh wow, and so that became The first group to perform a national television You're behind the scenes orchestrating this entire thing, aren't you? That's the Fab Five Freddie's But that's what's happening I played my position absolutely But that was my intent And I was able to circumvent a lot of BS by connecting with people on that new wave Seeing that saw what was coming believed And it got these ideas that I shared like the rebellious nature But it was getting none of the incredible press That, you know, the sounds and melody maker and the village voice Were all reporting on this incredible stuff So they got that and wanted to Wanted to help make that happen And they were able to get a hit out of it While also sharing that love Is shouting me out and talking about flash And so when they made the music video I was like, listen, let's get flash to play himself So they had a turntable and a mixer I said flash, we're gonna be here The music videos were still a kind of a new thing But I said flash, these guys have shouted you out I'm tight with them, boom, boom, boom Flash never shows up So if Jean-Michel Basquiat We were all hanging out at that time And I said, and Jean was there As in, you know, to take part All of the people walking around the video Most of them were our friends I said, I'll show Jean how to do it And he could stand in for flash So nobody had seen this DJ thing yet I'm like, Jean, it's simple You just hold a mixer and do this And put your hand on a turntable And just gesture like this a little bit And so he was like, okay, cool But when the camera's rolling And Debbie walks right up That's Jean-Michel Basquiat standing there With the little pork I had on And she delivers the first line But Jean forgets to do what I thought of He's just kinda standing there And he's gonna stand here and have a little grin on my face And it always makes so funny Like, well, he was like, I'm not trying to play myself No, of course not. I don't know what this is I ain't seen flash None of these DJs cut scratch and mix yet But it all works out Everybody has The number of times the commercial have a dog with headphones on Everybody knows what's going on But it was undiscovered That is such a iconic rap video What else can you tell us about that day? Can I answer a dumb question? It looks almost like it was shot on the streets of New York But that's a set, right? A modest soundstage But they are coming out of Provze That bar, right? On La France Street Yeah, whoa, no, I read an interview Where he, 'cause I recognized it And it sure, 'cause I used to live two blocks away Okay, that was Rudolph from "Danceteria" The puck building, right? You know, the puck building? Yes, I know it right now Yes, that's amazing, you know, I never went But Rudolph, who later became Quite prominent, he was the main owner of "Danceteria" Very popular club, he was behind Provze Here we got it, 'cause Provze was a Russian new school list underground It was a very, very cool name Of course it was a very cool name, Provze Yeah, the other thing that's interesting about the rap show video Which is a part of the connection that I had with them Is they commissioned myself Lee Kenyounis and Shawn Michelle Yes, we did graffiti And spray painted stuff all on that set So I did a piece. That's amazing That's a rap, which we're faking We just came in early, we finished, right? We finished it, we didn't want fumes all over every way of everybody Leated a piece that said Lee And Shawn Michelle did his like kind of same-o Brazes and little graffiti In and around that But that was another little subtext That was the pieces of that set that must be worth of force I was gonna say those pieces still exist Long, I seriously doubt it None of us had hit, especially Shawn Michelle Who went through the rule It's all insane what we've lost Because we thought it was had no value That's just good point Literally when I went by and watched it, I was like Where is this lead piece? Where is this rap piece like? Well, you know that was a part of what I was working to do That's a very good point that you mentioned And that's what they were looking to do to help us And to showcase what we were doing Because that's what I was looking to do Get our work in front of people And I can see it as art And treat it seriously And just look at it seriously And open your mind as opposed to the complete negative Low back that we got constantly without saying Well wait a minute, that's not a bad piece Guy can create, a guy can paint Maybe we should figure out a way that we can get this incredible talent That was born right hand issues With your awareness of punk rock and your art history As an artist yourself I can't help but ask you this Were you thinking about even subconsciously? And you mentioned Andy Warhol Yeah, Malcolm McLaren and the Sex Pistols Was that in your mind at all? Well, interestingly Very much so, so being that I was close to the scene And meeting and reading the face and and enemy and sounds and stuff I got a sense and I would later meet Johnny Lyden And all those guys when they hit the scene We would all intersect And they basically had a very like disgruntled kind of Bob towards Malcolm Because they basically were like he was a slick businessman guy That was able to get he controlled Got the money essentially And so they were pissed When he did come to town To tap into what was going on with hip hop It was Lady Blue Who organized the Roxy And managed the Roxy Eddie Crew And it helped really blow the scene up She wanted me to connect with him And I just took a pass on that From what I had learned And knew from guys in the class Because I was just like you know I'm gonna step back from now Michael Holman that did take him up to the Bronx Took him to Bronx River Kind of gave him a close-up look And what he did was remarkable In fact, he brought all the elements together With a good record Buffalo girls and the other records In a remarkable way That's like a hobo I like all those Those are some cool songs Amazing And to tap into the supreme team Which had one of the two or three very obscure Rap radio Radio station shows at that time I think they came on something like On a Tuesday at two in the morning You'd be up with a fresh tape And the box ready to record Because the supreme team was the best Later there would be Mr. Magic on New York Radio That would open it up Just WHBI station Which was similar to public access You got a slot and you paid a few dollars To have it but then it would go to BLS And then 98/7 kiss But Malcolm McLaren captured the essence Of the supreme team These two guys they were five Percentives which is a black Muslim offshoot They had a lot of flavor They would play break beats They were super cool You can go on YouTube and hear some of their episodes and stuff They just really good record Ahead of the car but people Being able to really create Something that was a unified Version of what this hip-hop thing is all about So it was brilliant the way he can do that And he did And then went on to do like an opera record It was like a Madame Butterfly And it was awesome He did the first version of "Vogue" before Madonna did it Down to the same black and white video Is that tapped into that scene So he was really good at seeing subcultures And showcasing them in pretty effective ways That were true to the roots Tap into the court And it's not to compare you to him at all But certainly like you Andy Warhol and Malcolm McLaren What you share is that is a sort of cultural orchestrator role. Executed very differently. And with different, perhaps, ethical standards, I think, higher ones in your case than in Malcolm's case, culture, culture, with great output. Like, really, he's a mixed bag of a figure in music history. But I'm a huge battle-wow fan. I'll go to the mat for battle-wow. You know, sex crystals. He managed the New York Dolls for a minute. You know, the man's very important in music history. He was brilliant, essentially. But you, I think the three of you, I think you have operated in a similar way as a high-level cultural orchestrator, as a connector of scenes and music and style and art. So it's really interesting to think about your role in a similar way. Thank you so much. Yeah, well, if things fell in place in ways that obviously some things were specifically designed and intent. But when you put yourself, which I've found over the years, and I talk about in my book, a lot of amazing things came my way that weren't on my agenda. But I had to suss it out and really think deeply. Am I going to take this move? Like, getting to host the first rap show on MTV. A lot of full circle. MTV puts the rapture on. It's like their first time they're showing a rap video. And then you come full circle and you're hosting MTV's rap show. The producers that were on staff at MTV, one of them Peter Dardi and also Ted Demi, both are sadly no longer with us. They were campaigning and they were like, he's the guy, because Peter was on the downtown scene and knew all the moves I was making, who I was moving when we were intersecting on that scene. He was like, and he's the guy that's in the rapture video. He's right there, which was one of the first videos MTV had to play. So they were like, hmm, let's try this out. And the ratings were through the roof. They thought the Nielsen machine broke or been hacked. Or somebody been paid. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. And it all worked beyond expectations. So those things happened and framed up and helped shape up and extend on the platform that I was trying to build. I just was trying to present this in a way that people can see us in a much better light, understand us as creatives, which not just myself, but when I got in, I opened the door and held the door open for, and Jean-Michel and I would talk about, it can't just be me and him. Let's bring in other people. And that was like crashing days and Futura and Ram El Z, the cast that we felt were creative, unique individuals that can help, you know, do their own thing on this in this new space. If you want to hear something that you may not have been exposed to, that really I think helps encapsulate that period in time. After you listen to Rapture by Blondie, go back and listen to Beatbop. Yeah, by Ram El Z. Yeah, Ram El Z and K-Rob and K-Rob. Of course, I turned Jean-Michel on the hip hop when we first meet. I have tapes when I meet all these people, even for Kristen Debbie. I had live tapes from Bronx gigs of Cole Crush, a fantastic. So these are how this all spread through the city. And that's why most people that was with this had a boom box with a double cassette player. Yes, so you can bus off a 90 minute copy for your homie, because it was. Might be fifth generation by that point, but it's definitely fifth generation. I get to the script. Authentic grit in that fifth generation. Authentic grit baked in and that was how it all spread and got around. And so I turned Jean-Michel on. Yo, there's this new thing going on. Taves like how loving it. Then he was like, wait, I can do this too. Look, Ram, Melzie and K-Rob into the studio. It made that beat. And that's interesting too, because that's before rap was structured. And guys would have records. Would they rap for 15, 20 minutes? It just go all in. Well, that was the whole thing. People were like, you can't put rap on a record because how would that even sound? These guys were on the mic all night. So what would even be, but to your credit on another level, you went to Millie Mill in 1979. I think it was. And you were like, hey, many need to make a rap record. And he's like, what are you talking about? Do you ever think of making a record? He looked at me and he's like, who would buy it? He's got to say, not thinking like that at that time. They were not thinking like this. Soon after, they would be shown the light. And once again, this was something that Sylvia and sugar records saw. Like, they had a sense. But they just saw how big it was in the communities, in the urban communities in New York city. It was like a no-brainer. Enjoy the label, a local label called Enjoy. I know Enjoy. Releasing that label. They put out super rapping and a few other records. I think maybe Spoonie G's record, who was this super cool solo rapper before we had Big Daddy Kane and rock him and everything. This cap was like that he was it. I guess what Sugar Hill was able to do was to push it out nationally and get it played outside of the New York area. And people loved it. And as they say, the rest is kind of his history. Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. The New Grippy Setting Mist from Maybelline New York. Zelda Mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all day comfy grip. Try new Grippy Setting Mist from Maybelline New York. Maybe it's Maybelline. Now that we've learned so much about the song, can you tell us how this was breakdown? Well, listen, there's a couple of different numbers out there. So just to be clear, let's are often in contention. And what's publicly available is not necessarily where things will go or the end of the story. But the credits on the record say that it's 50/50 Chris Stein and Debbie Harry. But I did find one claim somewhere in PRS specifically for the deeper, deeper credit nerds out there. PRS, it does, there's a third that has been claimed, I believe, by the estate of Clem Burke. So it's interesting to kind of note having listened to his hi hat pattern, maybe recognizing that it had a say in what the wrapping cadence may have turned out to be. I'm not sure what's going on with this, but there is a possibility that Clem Burke, you know, or as a state, I should say, since he passed recently, might be cut into the songwriting, publishing credits on the song. And to be clear, it's clearly, it's unsettled business right now. Well, Freddie, we've talked a lot about this song. We want to talk about the legacy of this song. Let's start there. What do you think the legacy of Rapture is? It's an important piece in introducing and setting the table, I feel. Many people that heard Rapture, some of the earliest rap records that did break out of New York, beyond the fact that people thought novelty at first or just whatever, this is some kind of weird kind of thing. It set the table, well, I guess, you know, while style, the film that I was a big part of, didn't have a national release, but it showed that was the first showing that this is a scene. This is a culture developing in urban areas in New York City. And if you then look and listen to the rapture, wait, rapture, they would happen. Oh, and these guys were doing graffiti in the background. It helped set the table for what would come. In fact, once again, when Peter Dardy and Ted Demi were lobbying the execs at MTV to put a rapture on, they were like, look, this is a part of the story, along with the fact that Rundee MC, L.O. Koojay, early Houdini, these records were going go with little to no marketing at all. But they were like, look what we have here. And here's this channel, which is looking at music videos. And that was one of the first videos, music videos MTV played. But as time progressed and people understood more of the story from connecting the dots from other things that happened, even like, well, we're, people didn't know who the hell of Fab 5 Freddy was or what that was. But when your MTV wraps happened and became this big, highly rated show on the channel, the press that we would get would reference, this is who this guy is. And then they go, wow, though a piece came together and people got the complete picture. And then the fact that they weren't a band that was just trying to rip the culture off. They shared love and shouted people out and did it in a sincere kind of way that added it to, I think, a big part of what hip hop has been about, like exchange and interchange. And I looked at the relationship that I developed with them as a cultural, I'm sharing these new things. And I told them I was a big fan of Andy. Well, the first time I met Andy, officially, Andy Woho was hanging out with Christian Debbie. I want to bring this up because this is sort of what has not been stated explicitly, but is all through your book, everybody's fly, go check it out. It's just that you saw art and you heard music, you saw dancing, you saw culture. And I love in your book when you talk about, like it was every bit a school of art as much as impressionism and dataism and all that stuff. I want to make those connections, show people that it connected like those movements did. I felt strong. It was a full picture. And that leads me to a question that's part legacy, but also part where goes hip hop from here? Because I think that a lot of our frustration, and this is, I think, across generations. I think a lot of our frustration is that maybe because the internet gives us access to so much in immediately that it's hard to find underground culture now and and truly get excited because it's almost like, you know, where do you go? Like it used to be like that late night radio show that came on at two in the morning that was an early adopter or, you know, maybe it was that's, you know, pirate radio station. If you're in the UK, like, yes, yes. Why do you think it's so hard for us to find new culture for all of us to get excited about? Is it because we're so dispersed with our different ways in? I don't want to answer this question for you. No, but I feel like you must have an opinion. Well, I think that's a part in parcel of the problem is we have immediate access for a million songs, let's just say, in the devices in our pockets. And I think it's, do we or don't we post what we're doing immediately online for the world to kind of see and share? I think sometimes being able to hold back is important in the creative process, comparing it to what came before hip-hop had a good 10, 15 years to develop to forge roots to go deep before it got exposed on your TV raps and then other states and other people countries around the world jumped on board. I think that's one part of the issue, but I think I feel definitely as interesting things going on, I think one of the problems happens when these things get exposed maybe too early. And then the people rushing and get all over it and pick it dry and the artists themselves may not understand initially how it's good to hold back a bit until you really developed something or you've really, you know, I'm sure you've heard stories about different acts that didn't hit on the first album. And record companies were invested in developing an act, getting all aspects together, believing in you over the long run and building you up to a certain point. So I don't quite have all the answers, but I do know that there are interesting things going on. When I meet people doing interesting things musically or what happened, I'm like, please hit me with some links so I can see what you're doing, what you listen into, because this is a zillion songs out there, who's going to be that kind of filter out there. You know what I'm talking about? I think it's me in luxury. I think that's the we will gladly take on that role. You guys are doing a really good job and the way you dissect music is so informative and you learn so much like what the blue notes are and all these kind of things that I'm like, you've heard and felt, but I didn't really know the definitive way to do it. So I mean, there's good things about where we are and there's certainly problematic things. I think how you hold back on, once again, exposing it all too soon online, but also knowing where to dig down deep and find that interesting, those interesting little panels of things that are happening. It's a search that we must do. Let me ask a question, just as a fan of yours from UMTV Raps. Was there ever a song or an artist that you like pushed UMTV Raps to play where they're like, no, we can't do that. Oh, no, that never happened. We had control over UMTV Raps. In fact, with Ted and Peter stepped back after a while and it was pretty much Ted Demi that ran things and Ted had a really good taste, but they would run everything by me. Like when a new ad came through, they wanted to make sure that we were all in sync on it. It wasn't from top down. Hey, guys, whatever, whatever. Cause there was these 10 videos. Yeah, no hell. No, they trusted us to go out and do it and find the acts and, you know, what, what are we going to showcase on the show? And we were where we were looking to showcase. We knew it had obviously had all been born red and holly green fed in New York. Well, we were like, well, we got to represent the rest of the country now because we've hearing that there's this guy in Miami, who was at the time Luke Skywalker two lives crew and Billy, I've always looked also very not worried about a season to assist letter. He definitely wasn't. But the first time we traveled, the big joy for hosting UMTV Raps was getting to travel to these other places to showcase. And so we immediately were like, well, when they offered, when Peter said, man, how would you want to do the show? I said, man, I just don't want to be cooped up in the studio with the green screen and goofy shit going on. Like all the other VJs did. I said, man, that's whack. I said, I'd be more comfortable in the street if cast is in a basement, putting beats together. I want to talk to them there and feel that energy. And they said, let's do that. So that's what we did because I was just as curious to understand what was going on in Houston's fifth ward with the ghetto boys. Or when we did NWA's first time on TV is we're at we began at the welcome to a Compton sign. And then we rented a flat bed truck that we can drive around and people can see LA see South Central. So the desire to do that and the filmmaker in me wanting to show some good images was what we got to do. And it worked remarkably well. The problem developed a few years in when they got hit. Like, for instance, you have a company like yes, who's spending money to advertise on your TV wraps. And then you have numerous people and numerous videos wearing fubo shirts. And then I'm learning that, oh, this is a brand. And they're getting free advertising worn by the groups. And guess is like, what the hell? Like we're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars. And these guys are just so that became a problem with videos. The late MTV would like, well, they're late. They started blurring them out to please the paying sponsors. Well, to yeah, because you got guys paying and then you got groups wearing like all hillfrog Magic City. If that was a like a hot brand, they'd be like, well, this guy's got the Magic City on and we've got to pay for ad space. So that became a problematic. But the labels took their time to blur these things out. And other video shows develop like BT finally developed their rap show. And they didn't have those same issues. They led the guys wear whatever. And it was a whole other story. It was a whole other story, eventually, what that jumped off. But it was good. And initially, we had free reign and we broke many acts and was like, if we loved it, we're playing it. And it would go crazy. We'd hear stories about the record sales going crazy week after the show. And it was just such a cool thing to help people out and give them some showcase in one TV. I would pull groups to the side. They'd be so nervous. Oh my god. I got this mic in my hand. I'll walk them over and just, you know, do this all good. You know, it has to be stuttering and nervous. I said, look, man, we'll do this again. If you screw up, I'll sometimes say something that's overly ebonic. My producer would be like, fat. You just said, duh, duh, duh. I'd be like, what? I said, dad, definitely. We go reshoot this ebonic bananas craziness. But it was fun. And it was, it was, it was, it was, it was amazing to see that happen and to be a big spark in the game. I love it. Well, Fab5 ready. Thank you so much for coming on our little show. It's such an honor to have you here. Can I just say that the first time I went to CBGB's exploring this whole new wave punk scene and that was the venue. The first band I saw performed with the cramps. Oh, can I love my cramps shirt for all you? And it's funny that your name is Lux. Yeah, Lux and Terrier. Lux and Terrier was the lead of the cramps and his girl, the, their IV. It wasn't IV. Yep. It wasn't IV. They were incredible. And he scared the shit out of me. And the fact that at the time before they became known, right? What would it, what would it have been like to see them in whatever? It was like scary. They were like incredible. And the vibe and the features for the Black leather look is just the austere gritty grimyness of CBGB's in his band. I'm like, oh, it's just a kind of band really kind of scare you up. Yeah. Is there doing this horror kind of gothic kind of swamp rock rock, a big swamp rock. I like that. And they went, they went to crowd sometimes. No. So the other band, the band that had an open for them was James White and the Blacks. Well, that became James White and the Black. But his original band was contortion. And so the contortions were the, were the support band that night at CBGB's. What James White would do famously was start a fight or punch people down front. And he'd like, just get out. He'd be clunked. If he might slap somebody and whatever that was like a part of the ad, which was crazy. And get back on stage bleeding. Listen, there was a band, these tough white dudes from Brooklyn called straight edge. They were some real rumblers. And then unfortunately, the guy that James White thought he could hit was one of these dudes. They beat the shit out of him. And he gets back up on stage at CBGB. He's blood flowing out his nose, finished the whole set. I'm like, I'm going to love just seeing that crazy shit ever like this dude. It's bleeding. He's grab me singing the blood is every, I'm like, this shit is wild. And then the cramps come on. It was a scene. Oh man, the cramps are, they're one of my favorite bands. I used to see them play in San Francisco every Halloween because that was their like, they would make the rounds. When I was, when I was a teenager growing up, so that's amazing. I love that you love that. Did you ever see the footage when they played at a mental institution? No, people in this, it's, it's, it's, I think that's on YouTube. I think you know, you're talking about, yeah, it is genius and insane. Like the literally these people in the crowd. and the group performing. - Somebody told me you people are crazy, but I'm not sure about that. (audience laughing) You think it'd be all right, man? Wait, I'm off, it's just the way. - It was, whoa, it was a moment. - They had their own thing, yeah. And at the time, I'm sure you didn't know if there was a wink or not, you're like, are these guys scary? - I do. - Are they cartoon characters? Are they the real deal? - Yes, it was a nice mix of-- - Did you meet them? Did you ever talk to them? - I met, I met Lux once. If you just just spoke briefly, I think at Blicca Bob's, in fact, which was record store? - Record store? - Yes. - Record store, my first punk record-- - I'm off of eighths. - Right off of eighths, on Blicca Street, and he was a really rude guy. He was like a soup Nazi of the record store game. - He's the archetype for the rude guy who works in the record store. - Basically, he's that guy. - And Lux was in there one day, and I was like, oh wow, Lux, hi. He was like, hey, that was intense. - What I wouldn't give to have gone through to have experienced what you experienced. And it's all in your book, which is called "Everybody's Fly Out Now." Where can people get, or find out, about your new book, that's right. - Oh, it's available everywhere. Find books or so. And as well as the audible and Spotify for the audio version, which is a lot of special treats. - So you get reviews. - Yes, and you can turn them pages. There's a great photo insert. I worked really hard to get with photographers from back then to dig into their crates to find really never before published photos of myself. Jean Michel, I had some, a lot of stuff I pulled there. Even though the photos are not that big, did a real deal in terms of what, how it looked back then, and some of the key players who shot with me, Keith Harring and JFK Jr. that I got out of the Keith's archive out of his estate, show me stuff. Though it was really fun to put it together to share all these stories. - Congratulations on finishing it, getting it out there, and going on. - I'll say it's such a good read. - Such a fun read, man. - I put up there with some of the best music bios I've ever read. - Thank you so much. It really means a lot to have it, to share. And I'm feedback I'm getting is good. I'm out here in L.A. We had a big book event at the Lodge Room last night and Roger Gwenvier Smith, the incredible actor, did a talk with me, he's a good friend, and a lot of my old-school L.A. friends from Delicious Vinyl, which I talk all about. The guys that started that label, which was the big rap label out here before Ruflis. Those guys were my buddies, and I talk about meeting them, and they all came out last night, so it's really fun. - Well, thank you for coming on the show today. - Thanks for having me, man. - As always, you can find us on Instagram and TikTok. You can find me on Instagram @Dialo, D-I-A, L-L-O, and on TikTok @DialoRiddle. - And you can find me on Instagram at L-U-XX, U-R-Y, and on TikTok @LuxuryXX. - And you can follow our podcasts on Instagram and TikTok @OneSongPodcast for exclusive content. You can also watch full episodes of OneSong on YouTube, just search for OneSong Podcast. We'd love it if you'd like and subscribe. - Also, be sure to check out the OneSong Spotify playlist for all the songs we discuss in these episodes. You can find the link in our episode description. - And if you've made it this far, you're officially part of the OneSong Nation. Show us some love, give us five stars, leave a review, and send this episode to a fellow music fan. It really helps keep the show thriving. - And by the way, if you're looking for even more music facts, more conversations between Diallo and Luxury, and basically more of us, we've got a Patreon now. You can find us at patreon.com/DialloLuxury. That's right, Diallo Luxury. - Luxury helped me in this thing. - I producer DJ, songwriter, musicologist, and every Friday night from 10 till midnight KC-RW DJ, luxury. - And I'm actor, writer, director, and sometimes DJ Diallo Riddle. - And this is OneSong, we'll see you next time. - This episode was produced by Casey Simonson, mixing and engineering by Eric Hicks. (soft music) Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Maybe it's Maybelline.