BlockTalks: Bitcoin for Institutions, with Richard Green

It will be around, forever and until you don't have to worry you can build, you can invest, you can hold, you can store a value for as long as you want. In the 256 block tops we speak with Richard Greene, VP of Institutional at Rootstock Labs to discuss Bitcoin for institutions. I'm your host Marty Sumagogy and this is Block Drops, your weekly digeston blockchain for business. These news are not a form of endorsement, sponsorship or encouragement for a consumption and are meant for educational purposes only. Alright everybody, I am here with Richard Greene in what promises to be one of the hottest days of the year in London and he's gonna tell us who he is and what he does with blockchain. Richard, welcome to Block Drops. Brilliant, thank you for having me and like you say, we're both London based and we're both melting here but I'm super excited to get into the topics. Cool man, so let's start from the top, who were you before crypto, how did crypto find you or you find crypto and what actually attracted you in the first place? Yeah, absolutely. So I started my career in the more trad-fi FinTech space and spent 10 years at Bloomberg. So selling FinTech data, the Bloomberg terminal which is pretty well known within the space and did that for the majority of my time there and also managed into some of the customer support groups that they had and really I think towards the end of that period that I was with them, I'd always had an interest in digital assets and I'd always had an interest predominantly in Bitcoin because obviously that's the main, that was the main talking point at the time but it was somewhere where I wasn't really too sure how to get into that space and what to do within it but I knew that I wanted to investigate it somehow and fortunately enough, Circle were looking for somebody to start to go out there, European customer experience group and I thought it was a beautiful halfway house between the kind of the trad-fi world and then the digital asset world because obviously it is that digital dollar and they were on a massive growth trajectory and so joined there and spent a couple of years there building out the business that they had in Europe and that was an amazing experience right you're starting to see from the very beginning what people are using stable points for and what are actually the use cases within different regions we focus predominantly within the emerging market so you know your Latin, your Sub-Saharan Africa obviously within Europe it was being root used predominantly for trading purposes but as I went deeper and deeper down that rabbit hole it was something where I started to see that maybe digital dollars aren't for everyone and there's many reasons why you would use one but maybe there's many reasons why you wouldn't right around decentralization government control and those kinds of things and so Bitcoin really started to stand out to me as what that what that could be solving and then reached up came along and it was something where I think you know if I look back at the three companies that I've worked for Bloomberg Circle and and root stock I was a collapse it's something where every single one of them has either a philanthropic side to it or a focus on like financial freedom right Bloomberg was founded because there was no transparency into the rates that were being quoted on government bonds and the effects markets and obviously circles focus was financial freedom and root stocks was the same and it really resonated with me because what root stock labs were building out what Diego the founder had had sort of build out was to bring Bitcoin to the masses but with programmable money right so we are a side chain but we're EVM compatible so you kind of get the best best of both worlds you have the pristine collateral of Bitcoin but you then have the Ethereum like smart contract capabilities on top and they were working predominantly with the with the likes of remittance businesses and cross border payments and it was a case of what more can we do and where else can we go into and that was something that I really wanted to explore and so I would say that it was more about the mission than it was about the even you know about crypto tokens and that kind of thing it was the technology that really attracted attracted me and but then it was about what are people actually trying to do with this more than anything else and so that that that's that's how I find myself into a rich stock and go further and further down the down the rabbit we're in the very in this very interesting chapter of the crypto story or history books where for a very long time the industry was concerned about the institutions coming in when are the institution institutions coming when are they are going to adopt crypto and what we're seeing now is almost like as if crypto was co-opted by the institutions and instead of dealing with crypto and blockchain as a paradigm they're treating as a technology so we hear a lot of the rails all the programmable rails and the the stablecoin rails and the rails and and rails is a very tradfly term from remittances right corridors rails and things like that so I've been in the industry for over a decade and I'm now conflicted because I'm also a tradfly guy turned crypto and I'm now like how do we reconcile these things the reason why I stepped away from that was to work on financial freedom and the centralization and ensure that you know network network effects apply and the values pushed to the edges and all that stuff and now the most successful companies in crypto are centralized companies doing IPOs which is a very tradfly thing how do you and I and I hate that I'm jumping into the deep end just at the start but you you have a similar background to mine so I just wanted to kind of gauge what your recent experience dealing with that if this is a dilemma for you and how are you reconciling these things as you build on top of one of arguably the most libertarian layer one we've ever had I embrace it to be honest it's not something where I ever had the issue with with pushing against it other than what it could be used for in a in a livicent manner whether that but that's bad actors or you know whether it be control I'm not somebody who lives in a go within a a country that has a government now this could be debated very much so like within the UK who are looking to do government control and monetary control and things like that however I've seen those issues and that's where I think that that's that that obviously sits for me it's a case of how do we apply the technology so that it benefits others and I do think that to be honest my view has always been for anything to be successful within the world of finance you have to have institutional presence and that's because that's where the liquidity is so whether we like it or not very rarely is a p2p network going to function on a mass global scale right you've got obviously what Dors is doing at block and that's because it's kind of an intranet internal movement of money and that's amazing right that serves a huge this is a great amount of people but that's just one company and I think that for for us to grow and in our world there was a few things that needed to change I think that we were rubbish at building the narrative and the marketing around what crypto was I think that we we held on to that initial view that this isn't for any institution they shouldn't be able to have it because it's ours and we're arguing against that and so I think that at the initially though we don't want to get involved in it because it seems a bit wild west obviously now that that that was the first stage for me that change that narrative started to change as I think the benefits started to become interesting for the institutions then it was a regulation aspect now that obviously doesn't suit or but again it suits the institutions coming in because they need that whether that be a pension fund whether that be blackrock whether that be whoever they need that to operate with in a certain world and so I think we're now at a stage where you've got two separate worlds exactly as you said you've got the centralized space which is your circles and and you can you can actually use it within a stablecoin world right you've got circle your IPO centralized us governed and then you've got tether on the other side which is not and so I think the benefit and the great thing is you can kind of pick and choose because now what the institutions brought was liquidity they brought experience they brought funding and they enabled the infrastructure to grow massively there if you look at the qualified custodians that are on the market now right whether that be like a bit going I anchor agent and they've all got their license say those meet a need now if you don't want that you can move over into the world of defy you can move over into these other institutes or the other decentralized businesses that I think as well have started to really grow on the infrastructure side and have some of the elements that are required or a lot of the elements that are required for even institutions or for individuals to use and so as an individual user as a retail user I think we have benefited and because there's two worlds that you can now pick and choose from do you want to go centralized or do you not yeah I like the permissionlessness aspect that if we maintain that then it's up for the decision maker to go with oh I want to do institutional and then they're using a public chain with institutional applications I want to be self-sovereign they can use this the chain in a self-sovereign manner in the same fashion and they're going to compete for block space give or take but it's the same info obviously we've seen the emergence of arc in temple and canton and all these new I I want to say enterprise blockchains or permission chains as we had in like early 16 17 18 with like say hyper ledger fabric and our three quarter for Thanks for watching. so there's this renaissance of the permission change, I guess. But I think also as the industry evolves and some of these standards become standards, meaning you're accepted by most. That means that now you have, say, X402 on Ethereum and Solana, but you also have X402 on Arc and Temple. So that makes it a lot easier for a builder or decision-maker to pick and choose what change they're going to use and in which use cases more preferably. Completely, completely. And exactly as you say, you know, Arc Temple, those all spring to mind, and I think that they're great for specific things and needs settlement, stablecoin settlements, where you need like swift aspects as like ISO20022 or something, which is a regulation that's required to transmit certain information and that's, so that's great. Do I think to be honest? Do I think that's going to scale? I don't. I think that they're going to have the problem in a similar way that Meta had with Libra where there's too much control. I think they will work well within a specific geography and within a specific sector. But our view at Reached Doc Labs and, you know, is we wanted to build on the layer one because of all of the things that Bitcoin benefits from. But we also obviously then wanted to add more in terms of the Ethereum compatibility. But, you know, we still think that that is the right way to go about and we think that is the long-lasting way to do things. It will be around for hundreds of years, right? Yeah, I assume, because it's unlikely that anything will be able to happen to that. It's just whether it's used or not, but it will be around and it will be non-permission for hundreds of years. And so that, it doesn't matter whether a business succeeds or a business fails. It is about the use cases that can be put on top of it. And I think that that then removes that worry of counterparty risk. Oh, well, what if the blockchain A that is, you know, a business-backed one goes down? Well, then really probably the whole thing does. Obviously, they'll have controls behind that to stop that happening. But Bitcoin, well, it will be around forever. And so you don't have to worry. You can build, you can invest, you can hold, you can store a value for as long as you want. I'm with you there. You said the magic word use cases. This is why I started the show in the first place. And one of the things I'm obsessed with as a product person. So talk me through your favorite use cases you've seen over the years with Roostalk. Because I don't think we have a lot of depth in the show and in the audience of, you know, what the current status is and what are the preferred or the kind of homework examples of the chain that is a layer to the Bitcoin and EVM compatible? What does that mean in use case forum? I'll start right really, really on in Roostalk's journey. And that was two protocols that would build money and chain and tropical. So they're kind of the OGs of the ecosystem. Money on chain is a Bitcoin-backed stablecoin. And tropicals is a lending platform. And they were built for that initial purpose, right? You bring your Bitcoin, you can access dollars against it. You can yield on top of it. And with tropicals, you can come in and get loans as an everyday person. And so that's like the perfect start of what Roostalk was about. Where we are now is and within the Roostalk institutional side around that use case aspect was we did believe that there was going to be a shift towards the institutional side. And we started to realize that even more when our users and when I say users that can be anything from a partner to an actual blockchain user on the retail side to a miner who proof of work mines are merged mines are chain started. They came to us and said we'd like to start getting Bitcoin back loans. And we'd like to start earning yield and these kinds of things. And so some of the use cases and another example of what we have, we have a tokenization platform called Midas integrated on chain. They're doing amazing work and they tokenize it could be something from an on-chain strategy, to a credit strategy. They work with the likes of Fassanara or Hyper rhythm. And that use case is pretty simple. You can come in, you can bring Bitcoin, move it into the Roostalk ecosystem, convert it to RBTC which is our rap version of Bitcoin. You can deploy it into a vault that earns yields. And not only that, you can then use that as a composable vault token to do other things with. And I think that's what I'm really starting to enjoy at the moment is that it goes around this whole productive use of Bitcoin. Bitcoin is collateral. It's not designed just to sit still. It can sit still, but it's not designed to. And so the use cases that I see that are encouraging that of great, here's use case one, earn yield is use case two, lend against it and earn a yield on top of that or borrow dollars and get dollars then for your operating expenses and things in that regard. So there's there's more and more of these examples popping up. We have the likes of mellow, which is a vault provider and tier capital. They are a tokenized market neutral fund. And again, same idea. So you're you as what's the use case there? Well, you as an allocator, you're getting access to better liquidity. You're getting access to probably faster redemption sides in terms of what you're actually doing. So you've gone from one, I've kind of given from one side of the scale, which is a very retail focused product on the the chain with money on chain and tropicals to a very institutional side all the way at the top level. So and and we have everything in between within that within that space. We I think you know, one to one to point out was we had is called sailing protocol and and they were one of the first protocols to look at tokenizing stocks and and you know, that kind of thing is possible to build on rootstock because it has the the base layer, the Bitcoin and it has the EVM compatibility that allows you to do more than just go. Okay, this is a decks. This is a perp. This is a whatever. I can do second, third, fourth and fifth stages within within that within that space. And so yeah, multiple use cases. A quick break to share something completely new we're building for the community. If you work in digital assets, you know that the most valuable insights don't happen on scripted panels or webinars. The happen when this lights turn off and the real builders and decision makers actually talked each other. So later this year, we're launching block crops and filter. It's a live invitation only site event for a fintech week. LDN strictly kept at 50 digital asset leaders. There are no panels. Instead, it's an open mic format. Participants got on stage to pitch a production grade use case, the beta regulatory bottleneck or layout your thesis on adoption and you get the room to react. We're recording the session to share the best insights across the global block crops network. If you're an institutional builder and want to create the room, you have sponsors lots available, email [email protected] for the brochure. Now back to the show. Really like the list of them and I really like that the fact that you're pretty much bridging like real world economics with crypto infrastructure, which is kind of where we kind of try to converge things. Now in in bringing those use cases to life, what are the most common challenges that either builders have or businesses have seen in terms of finding root stock and then figuring out how to build the gap. If you're incompatible, maybe means that the gap between solidity and what you guys offer is negligible. How do you as the root stock labs can help them overcome those challenges and really move fast in capturing the opportunity? Yeah, absolutely. The gap between the EVM side is super simple with solidity based and it's something where it's just a kind of a simple line code of line change and so or a line of code change rather. We basically say if you're building on Ethereum, you can build on root stock like that and start accepting Bitcoin and that's obviously a great benefit to them because they go, hold on a minute, I'm opening up a whole other market that I can then start to be building on, not just those who are using Ethereum, I can start to do it on Bitcoin. I think one of the being frank and being transparent, I think that one of the challenges is the growth in BTC5 has been probably slower than people have predicted. The amount of Bitcoin that is I think used within DeFi is in point, I'm going to guess around 0.5 or something very, very low. Now, that is not beneficial and is not beneficial to builders and is not beneficial to obviously change and people like that. However, where that then sits well is that you can bridge between DeFi and the CFI space and I'm going to give an example of what I mean by that. If I'm looking for a Bitcoin back loan, I don't, a Bitcoin back loan, I think in terms of the total amount of outstanding is $20, $24 billion. I expected to be $40 billion and I 2030 and expected to be $1 trillion after that, right? So there are pockets that are very narrow and deep that you can gain business from. And so it might not be that the biggest opportunity is for you to come in with a lending and borrowing DeFi platform that is offering multiple pairs where you're going to get really strong growth across everything. But if you're quite targeted within a certain area like we are within the restock institutional space, we're focusing on miners to begin with or Bitcoin balance sheet holders because there's a lot of people in that space who want to build things within that area or who want loans and who want those kinds of that kind of service. So I think the wider liquidity is not as big as it used to be, DeFi, or is it DeFi TVL or is 180 billion, is now 70 billion over the past number of months, so a big drop off. So I think that that can be a problem. So the going back to a point I made earlier and just go a bit deeper on it, how hard is it to convince a Bitcoiner to move into a wrapped version of Bitcoin and to take that risk of wrapped Bitcoin and then to deploy into your protocol? That is something that I think builders have to really come to terms with is what I'm building going to convince a Bitcoin holder to do those steps. Now if the answer is no, then it's probably not the right thing to do. If the answer is, well, it doesn't matter because what I'm actually going after is the current wrapped Bitcoin market, then you go, okay, cool, well, then you've got everything to do. And the way that we work with partners within that space, it's pretty simple, right? We obviously have our developer relations team and we do all of those kinds of hackathons to courage to carry the work with the grants that's possible through that process. We also then will look at how can we co-market with these businesses? How can we make sure that we are aligned? And so, you know, from institutional side again, the integrations that are on chain, I actively speak with, you know, for every single day, and we'll be saying to them, what can we, how can we help you? What can we be doing? Oh, right, Rich, well, I would, I think that we would be great to do a podcast or a webinar. Okay, well, we've got a marketing team, what can we do to kind of promote the things that we're all doing? And I think that the core goal for us is we've been around for eight years and we've been around for that long because we haven't really ever gotten involved in the whole incentive game in the whole massive shilling of tokens. And I'm saying that because we build long-lasting partnerships and we focus on the long-term value rather than just will give you $200,000 and you can go and do whatever you want with it, which obviously, you know, it is something that's known to be doing out there. No, no, we're going to integrate. You're going to integrate and we're going to work with you and we're going to work with you with a very strong idea of how we can benefit. You touched on something that, to me, is very important. When I joined the crypto space, it was, the first level was Bitcoin, we're talking 2014, it's a pretty Ethereum. Self-custody was a big deal in the concept and the self-solverty aspect of it. And you touched on the RAP Bitcoin space and the Bitcoin holder being comfortable in relinquishing control of that Bitcoin in RAP Forum. So what is the conversation in that aspect? Is this more normalized, naturalized? People understand the implications. I understand there will be Maxis that will say, "Hell no, I'm not doing that. My keys, my coins, and all the early-day jargon from the hotlers of the time." But how in a more institutional, you mentioned miners, I'm assuming that that's also part of your ecosystem. That's for the audience's digital asset treasuries. They specialize in native cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin being one of them. So what is the conversation with these participants and have they say normalized the bridging or the wrapping? What's the level of talk? I view it as there's been different tiers. You've got the OG Bitcoiners, the Maxis, who are never going to part with their Bitcoin, harder than Bitcoin. And that's absolutely fine. You can see that I think that that is a decreasing group. There's not as many of those that there's there used to be. You then go up a little bit and you've got those who are, whether it be, "I'll just stick on the institutional side," because otherwise we'll go for two in different parts. But I think on the institutional side, you've got those who are then ETF holders. It's their first access into the world of Bitcoin, but they're not ready to hold Bitcoin themselves. And so they don't really know anything about parting with their Bitcoin. You then move up a level and you've got the Bitcoin holders who are, who had it for a long time, who are pretty savvy with what they're doing. And then above that, you've got the big DeFi Bitcoin holders, who know exactly what they're doing and they're super willing to part with their Bitcoin because they understand it all. And the sweet spot and that market, I think, that is important to crack and to grow out all those Bitcoin holders who have held it for a long period of time, because they understand Bitcoin and they've seen what's going on. Now, it's still difficult to get them to part with Bitcoin, but the ways that things have started to improve are absolutely the proliferation of ETFs has just grown the idea that more people are holding Bitcoin than the narrative of it. The custodial side of things is much far improved. So if I'm with Fireblock, so if I'm with Copper, or if I'm with Bitcoin, now what you're often seeing within these businesses is that they're talking all their ways for me to move forward. So these for me to keep my Bitcoin in custody on that platform, but also earn yield on it. So it's kind of a nice stepping stone, right? It doesn't leave custody, but it also starts to become productive in a way. Now, it's not fully, it doesn't mean that you earn the best yield, and it doesn't mean, but it's like, again, another stepping stone. Actually, they go, OK, well, actually, it was safe, qualified custody, and it's saving custody. I can move it out into somewhere else now because I feel more confident about it. But the things that people are concerned with and they care about are bridge risk within our world. Bridge risk, because obviously that is where the majority of the haxiker within the crypto space counter party risk in the exact same way that you'd have counter party risk within a an institutional investment into a fund, that's your counter party risk, but they're looking at what my counter party risk in the world of DeFi. And that's protocol risk, and that is that's the big one, because I think, and that's why you've seen this outflow of money from DeFi, because of this my belief is AI bots, I've kind of flooded in, unless they're able to find what protocols have the safeguards in place and what don't. And so, what a lot of what I've been told from the institutional players that we speak with is we're going to just sit off for a little bit of time, and we're going to, and it sounds really bad is not nice thing to say we're going to see who survives right and see who comes out the other side without being hacked and then we'll deploy back into DeFi. But from a rootstock perspective, we're constantly trying to educate, and so we just, we over educate, we over documentize about the word, we order everything so that when people come in, we, they're aware, but you have to find the right target market, because exactly as we said earlier, there are many different Bitcoin holders, and they all have differing views, and it's going to be much harder to convince an ETF holder to move into DeFi. Then it is to hold a Bitcoin, a Bitcoiner to move into DeFi, or quite simply the lowest hanging through a DeFi native Bitcoiner to move in, and you mentioned miners and Dakos, really interesting business. I think in the past six months, the conversations that we've had with Dakos regarding taking their Bitcoin and deploying it into yield generating products and DeFi, or CFi, or using it to get Bitcoin back loans has increased massively. Same with the miners, the miners are in a very, I don't want to say difficult position, because I don't think that's often fair, the energy costs are harder, the rewards they're getting are less. The Bitcoin prices down, so these three factors mean that all of the operating expenses they have that sit above them, machinery, employees, all the overheads, they have to be paid, but miners don't want to sell. They're Bitcoin, because they're miners. But again, super interestingly, they're miners. They're actually a huge amount of them aren't too knowledgeable in terms of the DeFi space, because they've never had to go into that space. They've never had to. They've made so much from mining Bitcoin, but why do they think about Bitcoin back loans? But there's this group of medium sized miners that don't have access to large lending facilities. They might not have a capital market slash treasury team internally, and they're now speaking with those going, "Hey, look, we want to make our Bitcoin productive. How do we do that in the safest possible manner? How do we use it as collateral and borrow dollars against it?" That's how we hold them through that process. I've been talking to that myself, because it's a very curious business model. It works beautifully when Tolkien go up, but in the current day and age where the liquidity left crypto in favor of SpaceX and other Elon ventures, it seems that that's all looking around. Do I merge? Do I sell? Do I buy something else? How do I make my current balance sheet work in my favor instead of against me? I think solutions like that are some of the ones that these debts are starting to explore and make a move towards, because I think they have a massive fiduciary obligation to their investors in making sure that not only they are acquiring more of the same tokens, but that they're making those acquisitions on a much better price point than the average that they have accumulated thus far. So I think it's a very interesting model, and I'm looking forward to seeing what the debt end game is, because it needs to function in every direction, not only when it's going up. And I think diversifying and strategizing financially, engineering, better, economic. for the balance sheet is always the fiduciary, you know, duty of the investment manager or the administrator. So I think it's a very interesting take on it. Now, in terms of your personal day-to-day, you know, you're working in crypto. You've been around for a very long time and crypto doesn't stop. The blockchain is never, you know, stop producing blocks. It works 24/7. How do you keep yourself sane and healthy in such an industry? It's a great question because you can get lost in it. And I think, look, to be honest with you, I've got two young kids. I've got two daughters, six and four. So there is a pool either side. So I'm caught in between the two in two areas that I love, right? It's a great it's a great position to be in where you want to spend 50% of your time or you want to spend, obviously, it turns with your kids, but 50% of your time in both in both spaces. And so, yeah, what we know what I do is, and again, going back to that point, I think that the majority of people within the crypto space are remote. And it adds quite a lot. I can pick my daughters up from school. I can drop them off from school. And those little things cause that 24/7 aspect to be more manageable for me. And so, you know, I was at Circle when Circle Depegged and I got my phone was buzzing at three in the morning where I had to wake up and then was on the line with our management teams in terms of what we were doing there. And so, you know, there is that 24/7 aspect as there is within any major business. But I think that what was good about that is that you can kind of, you can separate that with your family time as well. And so, yeah, I spend a lot of it within that. And I think, to be honest, the thing that I find also super helpful is the more I understand about the world of crypto, the more calm I feel. And so, I'm a big podcast listener. I'm a big reader. And I, I then get more less nervous about living in the 24/7 world because I try and hopefully understand as much as possible, which is impossible because there's new things coming out all the time. And I'm not the most technical person in the world. And so, you know, if something comes out that is on some new zero knowledge proof aspects and it's going, I'm like, okay, this is, this is going straight into Claude and the prompt is explain this like you're explaining it to, you know, my, my father or my mother or something like that, right? So, no, it's probably those things, right? Being able to work remotely, being able to spend time with the family and being more knowledgeable, as knowledgeable as possible in the space to calm myself. Yeah, that's something to get for sure. Now, if we step a little bit back and look more broadly like industry wide, what would you say is the one thing top issue we need to solve now to avoid working another 15, 20 years and then looking in hindsight and say, oh, we didn't fix that one thing and now we're back to square one. What is that one thing and why? I think the biggest thing we need to solve is the hacks. We, we all need to come together as an industry and make sure that whether it is open sourced, whether it is education or whatever it is, we are standing up against the hacks that are going on because that is what's taking liquidity out of the market and so there needs to be a massive kind of focus on ensuring that that is that is there. Now, that's slightly different to the probably the other aspect of quantum computing hacks against Bitcoin and do I think that that is the biggest issue for now? No, I don't. I think the immediate issue is protocol and bridge hacks to be specific and quantum computing is something that we at Readstock are very much aware of. We've looked into it with a lot of information. We're focusing on the signature side of things, which is obviously where the kind of issue lies, where that hack will occur, but we do have a view that is a number of years in the future and so I think that that combined with the work that other people are doing in the industry makes it makes you think, okay, there is there people are working towards it. They're not just saying that it's never going to happen, but it's probably leaving about 20% of the market off the table in Bitcoin layer one, right? I'm saying that maybe 20%, the institutions have priced in a 20% kind of haircut on the price of Bitcoin because that's probably the percentage chance that it will occur. There's a great piece of research around this and I forget the authors, but it's around the Q date and then it's 2030 or something like that. That is what they've priced in and I agree with that and so I think that that's something that comes up in conversation where people are like, okay, but I'm concerned with my Bitcoin being hacked 20% of the time. Something that comes up in every conversation is what how resistant is your chain or protocol to hacks. How's the bridge and everything like that? And so how we do that is obviously we will have to spend the resources and the R&D in terms of doing it, but I also think that there is again this goes back to that point we made at the very beginning that education piece, not every small contract is built the same, not every protocol is built the same, not every hack is the same. So how am I more hack resistant than somebody who is it? And so that is something that we can do a better job at explaining. Education is all my jam. Man, we're approaching the end of our hour and I would really thank you for taking the time and before I let you go, what would you want the audience to take away from this conversation? What should they focus on and just go do? Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me is that whether you get into crypto for the idea that you're going to make money in Bitcoin or whether you get into it for either technology, the focus should be on the long term. It should be on store of value. It should be on the fact that this is something that I view in terms of decades of why I'm involved in crypto. If you have a short term, if you aren't anything, you're going to not enjoy it. And so look into it with a 10, 20, 30 year horizon and I'm not talking from an investment perspective. I'm just talking about an everything perspective. And I think the the key things from the industry side is that we are seeing institutions really coming in and having a strong desire to make their Bitcoin productive. And that is through yield, it's through loans and it's about then how do we ensure that they can do this in the safest manner and through the best education. And so to the audience, if you're building something like that or if you're thinking of building something like that, then the demand is there, but you want to be focused. Lays are focused into a narrow and deep area and then start to grow out, but it's an amazing place to build for many, many reasons and rich stock labs will always be there just for people doing that. Richard, hope to bump into you at some point in the city when it's not squarching hot. Absolutely. In a meetup somewhere. So thanks again for joining us. Appreciate you. Amazing. Thanks for having me, Brazil. Shout out to Richard for bringing such a fresh perspective on the Bitcoin ecosystem for institutions. Don't forget to leave a review for block drops in your streaming platform of choice and learn all about the show at blockdropspodcast.xyz. This is offer today. Stay rare. Stay weird. LFJ.