003: Blizzard’s Johanna Faries on leading through pressure without losing perspective

Welcome to Good Conversation. I am Phil Nors, where the host of this podcast that explores leadership, creativity, and what it takes to do meaningful work at the highest level. Today, I have the privilege of speaking with Johanna Ferries, who is the president of Blizzard Entertainment, the studio behind legendary franchises like Diablo, World of Warcraft, and Overwatch. Blizzard, as some of you know, is now part of Xbox following Microsoft's $70 billion USD acquisition of Activision. Blizzard in 2023, one of the largest in-gaining history. There are a few things about Johanna that you might find valuable to know as we get started on. Before joining Blizzard, Johanna led teams at the NFL in New York City, where she served as vice president of club business development and vice president of marketing strategy and fan development. Her leadership and vision have earned her recognition on AdWix. Most powerful women in sports, fortunes, 40 under 40 and sports illustrated to most powerful women in sport. I've had the joy of supporting Johanna and her executive team at Blizzard. And I can tell you firsthand the way that she leads is as inspiring as the world that her teams get to create. What you'll notice about this conversation is just how personal it gets though. This is less a chat about gaming and much more a conversation about deep curiosity and commitment to growth, the kind of commitment to growth that enables the best leaders in the world to create and maintain wild impact. So let's get into it. This is good conversation with Johanna Fairies. Did you set out to be a leader? No. I don't because the first time anyone's asking me that question. Right. I just think it sounds awkward to be like I set out to lead. Maybe it's not, but I've never thought of it that way. Yeah. That's the short answer. No. Because it's an interesting one for younger versions of me. One of my absolute favorite questions to ask, folks, you know, that I either looked up to or started working with or had the opportunity to get in the room with, hey, is this what you expected you'd be doing? To the person. No one has said, absolutely. Like this is the center of the bulls eye. Like I imagine this when I was 12 and here I am. People have always had a glimpse. That's the sense. Like that's always like the point be of the sentence, which is like I did have a hunch that there was something going on that felt like a bit of a trajectory, but I had no idea what life was about to load into the experience bracket for me. Did you have early glimpses or what were some of those moments for you where you're like actually this thing or actually Harvard or actually this direction? So the first time I had that I want to do that one day was with sports center. ESPN came on. I was like a 90s, 80s, 90s kid and this thing hit and I was multi sport athlete. So sports in the vein sports, but I was playing it. I was doing the things. I you know lots of different sports, which we can get into or not. But then all of a sudden they made this entertainment. It meets news, meets sports, meets we can be tongue in cheek and you can be sitting behind a desk and talking about the head. I was like this is it. I thought at the time I actually wanted to be behind the camera, not in front. I wanted to be part of the production of it. Yeah. Yeah. But I was like that's cool. Maybe someday. That's the closest. I was like, no, 13 or 14. Yeah. Did it lead you into making decisions to pursue it or was just this an aspect that was bubbling in the background for you? I did to a degree, but I kind of flail around like I'm not that here's what I'm not. I'm not that person's like I saw it and then I put together a five year plan and I talked to anyone I could find and said get me an inter like I probably should have, but it just wasn't my way. No, but I did getting closer to pre college years kind of think about hey, yeah, push it. What would an internship actually look like or maybe I should apply to that or maybe I should get a, it's funny. I remember talking to my parents once saying like I think I want to be a sports agent. What good colleges are good for that kind of degree, you know, and I like I mean credit to my parents, they were like do whatever they were they were the most do whatever. I mean to a dangerous degree if I had been I mean you name it I could have filled in with anything they'd be like great because I was the third child so like they didn't even know if I was like in the house after time. But lots of freedom. But I didn't really put together like a concrete plan. I just sort of I advanced around it let's say. Yeah, it's an interesting one. We use the words when we are bringing through or we're hosting experiences for either like MBAs around the world. So like really high skill, high ambition, typically a type profiles. And then as we juxtapose that with high potential in sports, which we do a lot of, we use language like target and trajectory. So some people have a target this role this many years, this comp this many people below me here are the steps rarararar. And then I think there's a level of new roasts that maps to that the longer the timeline goes out. So if you've got like a target that extends more than three years in the year 2025. If you're like I don't know whether you've read the news recently. There's a lot of stuff changing. Let's just see how that goes. Some people have like these 10 year road maps and I'm like, fool, be careful. We should ask the rest of that one for a second. Others have trajectories. I'm a real fan of trajectory. And your trajectory is like this kind of stuff, this kind of direction. Here's who I want to be as much as here's what I want to do. And it's also defined by here's the stuff that I don't want to be about. Sure. This stuff doesn't interest me. This stuff that doesn't motivate me. And so we try and hone in on as much clarity. But the language is a fuzzy vision. Because I think if we are getting older and clocking experiences, if we're doing a good job, the difference between experience and wisdom is really important. So like we could be clocking a year. We're going to reflect on it to extract the wisdom out of it. But God forbid I go through a year with like the books and the conversations and all the things. And it's still this same fixed static view. Because surely I've changed. Is that make sense? Like that idea like here's my 10-year plan. I'm like, ah, it seems a little bit. I love the ambition. I might fall down an execution to your point. I also will say and look, I, I am blown away every day that I went to the university that I went to for college and that's its own sort of thing. But talk about not in the plan. I was actually one of the weirdos that was like, I expressly will not go to that school. I have a really weird story about that. I had an older classmate meeting. I was in high school and then I think there was a close friend of mine who had gone to Harvard. She came back. She was like two years my senior. And she came back and she walked up to me at my locker. I remember and she's like, yeah, I gotta go. I was like, yeah, that's for you. And that is not for me. And she's like, trust me. I think you'd fit. And then the next year, you know, how some of the, well, at least in the states, you know, the IBS will send, at least back in the day, they would send ambassadors out to schools. I mean, like, here's Dartmouth. You should learn and ask us questions. Anyway, and someone from a dean at the time or someone came up to me and he was amazing. And he blew away even certain stereotypes I had about the types of people who work there. He was just so cool and fluent in all these different languages. He was amazing. And he's like, we know about you. You should really, you should, I was like, no. And I remember when I sat on the couch and I got the brochure and I was talking to my mom about it and I was like, here's the plan. I'm not going because that is way too aristocratic for me. I am not going to fit in. We don't have that kind of money. It's going to feel really stuffy. It's just not, that's not what we're doing here. Right. But I will remain open and back in the day, you could gamify the system by applying early and not have to commit. So I was like, you know what? I'll apply and then I'll go to an overnight, you know, they invite you for a weekend. I'll get a taste. We'll come back and I'll go to like a normal school where normal people go and no less. And that that weekend also blew me away. I met some of the most incredibly incredible people, but just the global diversity, the style diversity, the political diversity, the humility. So many other people who were just like, you'd never know, you know, about their strengths or their hidden gifts or whatever. It just was not what I had in my head as whether or not this would be a fit for this type of gal. And I was like, okay, maybe. And then when I got the letter and I was blessed to be admitted, I was like, okay, I think we're done here. And like, that's the story, but I was really pushing against it because of lead and seed notions about whether or not I'd fit. Yeah. There's, we know this about each other. There's something that we both trust with regards to if it's for us. It's probably inevitable. And that's a personal belief, Frank. And so obviously people have a whole different views about those kinds of things, but for me, I like that. I like we need mental models with which to navigate the world. And I'm really quite locked into the idea that if it's for me, I've got to go for it. I've still got to be involved, active and willing participant. But if it's not for me, I don't want it. And like the wisdom that happens in between, but they're absolutely our moments that I look back on and go, I had nothing to do with that. I have nothing to do with that. This one just got loaded up on the pathway in front of me and I'm grateful that it happened. You talked about sitting with your mom on the bed, brochure moments like this, this is the brochure. I can at the brochure. I had a brochure moment with my mom too. We moved from the southern suburbs of Sydney where we were living at the time. I'm 16. And we're moving to the northern suburbs of Sydney, which is like change schools, change the whole vibe, change the whole community, all the things. Dad's work. And so I came home from school. It was the end of like year 10 going into senior years, year 11 and 12. And mom said, this school or this school with brochures, this school or this school. And I went that one. And so that was the school that I went to. And do you know who I met at that school? Johanna. Jessica Dunne. Who became my wife, a high school sweetheart. And of course, like there's so many ways to tell that story. But literally, literally everything in my life that I love and hold dear now from, because Jess is the director of the business, our executive producer, from the practice that we've built for the kids that are just the coolest thing in my entire existence to everything. Came down to that brochure. And so it's amazing. I mean, like I know that there's movies about this stuff, sliding doors. Sliding doors. But it's amazing how big doors swing on small hinges. Huge. And to your point, if it's meant for you, it's like, thank you for your participation because it's the both end, right? So it was you, that was meant for you, but you also had to be true to yourself in getting there, right? Because maybe Jess doesn't fall in love with the field. It's like, I put together the plan and then I'd like to go to this school, right? Everything gets the next thing. Yeah. And yeah, it's the pond reflection. It was like 100 years ago now. But I really think about that often of like, I was really pushing against the grain and yet ended up at one of the just foremost universities, areas of learning. One thing and just it was incredible. And it was earned like I was, you know, I belonged there. Yeah. And yet I was really often sort of resisting it. But that's that's sort of who I am in many ways, I think, was sort of like, make sure it's right. I regret not making the most of it though, because I wasn't the kid with the plan. And most of my friends, most of my closest friends in life all come from my Harvard days. But why say that is a lot of my fellow students were like, they were, they knew they had the plans. They were ready to go. They knew the exes and O's. They knew where they needed to intern the summer. They do the things. And I was kind of floating, being like, wait, wait, there's a game I should be flying. I'm trying to get to a first semester. Like what I didn't realize, okay. And upon reflection, I didn't really get in that frequency of making the most of being around that kind of amazingness until midway through. So I wish I could have started a little bit early on on taking full advantage of it. So, I mean, I am going to do something very dangerous in the year 2025 and quote, Kanye West. Oh, that is dangerous. My friend, good luck. Very dangerous. There's an old quote. But he had a song, "Everything I'm Not Made Me Everything I Am." And so there's something that is like additive and something that is deductive, I think about the way that we find our way, because you said there, like I'm paraphrasing. It took me a while. Like I wish I had a fast start. Do you know what I was doing, Johanna, when you were studying at Harvard? I was folding clothes in retail. I mean, like proper. Like I think my opportunity to go, I have to get involved here in my own life. Yeah. It was about 25 years old. And are you saying that more like it came a little late? That realization is that the implication of the point? Or. Yes. Yeah. Surprisingly late. Now I'm going to dip into like shared heritage here, because you know my dad's about to spire stuff. But I have always been comforted by, I think about like David and Galeth. Yep. And you remember like David didn't go out to war with his big brothers, because he was a kid. And so he's dad Jesse, like sends him with like cheese. So he's going out to battle. And it said that David arrived at the battlefield just as Galeth was calling you. Like hurling the abuse. So there's always been this sense of just at the right time. These things are just at the right time. I love it. But you're saying, oh, like I regret not taking advantage of those things. I used to like, it was folding clothes. It was a gorgeous retail experience. So I'm like a making light of it. But I worked for Mr. Armani, George Armani, all privately held. Amazing. And just working in a store, still working for Mr. Armani. And that's how the comms would come down in the training. But a busy day in George Armani in Sydney was three or four people. There's only so much to try to a store before you just find yourself standing around quite crazy. Yeah. So my version of it was, this is literally static. This is literally not going anywhere. And so that sense of then really wanting to change, catch up, make something of myself came much later. Then so many of the folks that you and I work with. For sure. And I do think some of that is just a natural tendency of you're young, you're trying to actualize. And it takes a little bit of that tension. And that's how we learn, right? I think some of the things that were also foundational now as I think about it were like, I was steeped in community. Yes. Multiple communities, but I was steeped in community. I played a lot of sports, but a basketball coach, in particular, was taught me about visualization. Yes. And then all of a sudden, I applied it to all these other things in my life. Like, oh, the power of visualization has a real, you know, a role to play. Yeah, totally. And I had conversionary experiences living abroad or just very like inexplicable somewhat like that felt supernatural. Something else. I lived in the slums outside of Santo Domingo and in the DR and sort of understood like wealth and poverty and what is it really and what is it not? And what are we told as an American consumer versus just like real joy that I experienced in a totally different environment that had nothing to do with money and it certainly didn't have anything to do with wealth. Learn that before. And so there's these like all these things that I actually think were like foundational to then you get catapulted into your 20s or your 30s or we think about like, you know, what am I gonna set out to make of myself that were critically important? Yeah. It's almost looping us back into that question that I used to ask leaders. Like is this what you saw yourself doing for me? Absolutely not. But then if I look over my shoulder in the same way that you're describing there, I go, ah, all of this makes total sense. Like all of this is cumulative. I was engineered for this. Literally engineered for this when the experiences and also the things that hurt, the things that I didn't make sense of at the time and I'm now profoundly grateful for. And it sounds so trite. Oh, I'm so glad that happened. Whether it was mental health hardship, whether it was a relationship failure as whether it was like big health instances. It sounds cheesy. I'm so glad it happened 'cause you wouldn't wish it on anybody. But I think there's a difference between, I'm glad it happened versus I'm a better person because it happened. And even as I look over my own shoulder, I'm so grateful for the apprenticeship model that life put me through because your sense of wanting to just get out there in the mix, it's definitely my preferred option. Really? There's a version of me that wants to, at some point, just pull the shingle down and go and apprentice. We're in the same way. somebody else's business, just work for free, have fun, feel it, experience it, do all the things. But I also love the idea of being like a mature age student nowadays as well. And just doing campus life for a year or two. What do you kind of look forward to? What are your like mystery buckets that people might not know that you harbor? Oh boy. Well, you know, desire more than most, my friend, because I divulged more with you, frankly, and we go through these weird tunnels, but like, yeah, I belong in the monastery in Laos. I just happen to be here. And thank God. And do I have the greatest job on the planet? Yes, I do. Like it is the coolest great go blizzard entertainment. Thank you, gamers. Thank you, the people who make games like, yeah, I would do this until I'm 103. And I should be sitting on some mountain with orange robes like contemplating and not talking to a single soul. So, you know, that's just that's that's what I deal with. But you know, there's there's a lot of different ways I can kind of I guess manage those provocations. And I, you know, I guess everything is is always less random as it may sound like yeah, back to when I went to university, I was like, I know I'm going to major in comparative religion, which by the way, I think you appreciate as well. Yeah, no way. And if I had stayed in the grad, the grad school track, I would have ended up a divinity school. I was like, well, this is, you know, this is what people believe in. That's it. That's all I want to be talking about. Yeah, let's talk about it, right? But I want to hear your your journey on that. I say it with a little bit of a smile as well, because when I tell you, it was the smallest department at Harvard, but now looking back, how many times is the theme of faith, belief, spiritual connection or spiritual disconnection now coming up in the zeitgeist? Whereas 20 years ago, 25 years ago, you're like, what are you doing? You want to talk about wasting four years of university. You are a comparative religion major. People are just like, you're going to be impoverished for the rest of your life. Congratulations. Here's your diploma. Yeah. And now it's just fascinating. How these themes are playing out societally and yeah, wow, you know, and how much I think it informs leadership or followership all of it. So interesting. Do you know that I went to Bible college and studied comparative religion? No, we have this many discussions when we haven't actually discussed this first. So they always just saving it for these conversations, just this very moment. But yeah, true story. And for me, I think the gifts of that study were and continue to be humility in as many forms that I can muster. Intellectual humility, spiritual humility. I had a mentor and this was like kind of like a bone shaking experience for me. You want to talk about like the moment where I was like, I've got to do something different because my entire MO and being careful here because this is end of one focus group of one, my story, not a projection on anybody here. Like very much my experience hanging out, helping and building a young adults community, a very large church, lecturing at Bible college at night, doing all these things, working retail. And I had a mentor at the time who was sitting around small circle and his hosting a session on ignorance and ignorance being not like an insult, but ignorance being by definition the things that we don't realize that we don't understand. Like you don't know that you don't know ignorance. Good. And I like I remember it because I've still got the art from it. It's kind of like he's drawing on like with his Edelman pens and it was all beautiful. Very fowl stand because we were in this very high residential tower in Sydney, top floor, Sydney glittering below. And we're having this chat about ignorance and he's like, oh, hey Phil, actually brings to mind a story. Can you tell me that story? The Muslim cleric told you. Look at him. Oh, that's not me. You must have me mistaken for somebody else. He said, oh, no, I'm so sorry. It was a Jewish rabbi. Can't tell us that story that the rabbi told you. He said, oh, like I don't know. Still haven't clocked towards God. I don't know what you're doing. It's like, oh, that's right. It was a Jane priest. And here he is. He knows that I'm a Bible college thinking about lecturing on comparative world religions, which really for like the school that I went to was just like aggressive evangelism. And then he just kept going. So nobody else would have noticed what was going on. But he's like, that's right. Sorry. It was a new age aquarium. I'm so sorry. It was a Buddhist monk. Oh, no, no, no, sorry. I'm confused. It was a Mormon. It was a Mormon stake, wasn't it? And over and over. And he must have just drilled that 20 in quick succession. It wouldn't have taken more than 45 seconds, but it felt like me just going, oh, haven't talked to them. Oh, I haven't talked to them either. Yeah. And there's big realization. Here I was very convinced on the way that the world worked. This is right. This is wrong. Not a lot of stuff in the middle, right? And so here I am. Like, this is how it works. I'm 24. And I haven't even read anything else. I haven't even spoken to anybody else. I haven't considered anything outside of my fragile existence. And when I say it filled in like a jingertower, it filled in like a jingertower. And I remember everybody else was playing card games that night. And I went and got a bottle of Jack and sat and just had like sips some Jack while I looked out over the city. And I was like, this is pretty significant because I don't know how I feel about this. And so I binged the next six months. I binged on all of the books that were taboo that were told that I shouldn't that the stuff that I like was curious for all of the things and suspended my then beliefs at the time. And the way that I like to describe it is that I broke up with God to get a bit of God. Sorry, I'm not on pretty good because it wasn't like it wasn't leaving the divine. It was reframing the divine as I understood it as quite an immature young person. And then, you know, well, and again, if I ever have a podcast like you, but I feel lazy, that's all I want to do is ask more at that to get at people's spiritual journeys. I have so many other follow-on questions, but we'll get back to leadership. I would say what blows my mind about this too is I think sometimes the frustration I have with like leadership chats or panels or whatever is like we're talking about such surface level things that either we can just ask chat, GPT and co-pilot and they will tell me all that information. But we're missing the what were significant arguably existential moments in your life that make you wander the world the way that you do. Isn't that more interesting? That's actually like the that's the place where people I think not only go to more authentic places, but like there's real deep capital learning to meet there. There's real deep capital pain that we can share in or trust that we can build from. And so thank you for sharing it. And I think one of the why I come back to that tension for me is like, yeah. I wouldn't I just I could not feel more blessed. Thank you Lord. And I really struggle the older I get with sometimes these very surface level conversations that I find myself in. And then we wonder why we're so socially disconnected, like we're sad inside. Can we all agree on that? Because we're not talking about the things, the really significant things that made you change trajectory back to your what do you think gets in the way of people being more forthright, being more open? Like it's a little bit spicy to use the word honest, but technically it's it's it's appropriate like capital H honest. What do you reckon gets in the way? Well, I don't know. I really don't have a good answer for it. I'm rooting for this to become trendy. I'm really rooting again for these types of conversations, whatever they might be like let people just kind of talk about the things I don't steal it for me and world don't steal it for me. But I if I ever started my own company, it would be the quiet part out loud productions. Because I want you know, it's like how do we make that? Go daddy.com. I know. I got to buy that LLC tonight. Now I just set it out loud. Anyway, it's really about we need like a sort of a holistic multimedia multi factor. We got we got to create the spaces. And Look, I would say something different if I felt like everyone's like hunky-dory and everyone just like totally connected and they're finding their communities and there's no anxiety in the world. And kids are great and cell phones are feeding the soul. Like is that is any of that happening? Is that happening? And every second conversation I now have has something to do with that crisis that we are in. The big bucket of uncommuricated needs. And inevitably that shows out that will show up anywhere, including and how we lead, including and how we show up to work or we don't. And so I think it's imperative. I'm hopeful we can start making that cool again. Yeah. Well, you and I have talked about the isolation that leaders experience and it's not even observational or subjective. This is like definitive. It's empirically validated, studied that the higher you go, the less you know. And that's not just on your craft, that's on the people. Like you have to. Yes. And we're talking about large organizations, all the things. But even in like small and medium enterprise, there are leaders who feel isolated. Now we've talked about these ones, the difference between like alone and lonely being isolated versus perceived social isolation, perceived social isolation, PSI is a huge issue because it's physically damaging for folks. It's as bad as two packs of cigarettes a day if you feel like you've got no one at your side. The way that I describe perceived social isolation is folks who find themselves in territory are I couldn't possibly describe to you how this feels. Even if I tried, no one would get it. So therefore no one's got my back. I'm not sure who my crew is. This is political, politicized. People need me to be in a role like and all the variants of all of those things. But leaders find themselves isolated. And so I think so many of these kinds of conversations don't happen because of perceived social isolation because of the sense that well, that's what leadership is. That's the price of leadership. What have you noticed about making sure that that doesn't become a part of your experience? When has it been a part of your experience? What did you have to do about it? It's an interesting prompt because I don't have the best answer for you. Here's why. A clinically suffering introvert. And I don't mean that like two tongue and cheek. It sounds tongue and cheek. But you know how introversion has now become like this sexy thing. Like I'm an introvert. I'm like, you're just shy. And that's not at all what we're talking about here. Or you're exhausted or you're like saying it because you think it's like cute and you're going to win some points. None of those things. I have been. Yeah. High-I introvert off the scale for as long as I've known to measure it. And you could break that down better than I ever could. But as somebody who clearly understands probably what that mentality and condition looks like. Solitude is like back to where I need to be sitting on some mat in a monastery. That is critically important for me to function. So it's not so bad to be isolated. And in fact, I think, especially even in my current role, and in some instances in prior roles, it helps me focus. It helps me be 210% obsessed all the time with the mission at hand, with some real deep reflection and care because I need to process so many considerations and end in isolation and solitude. I can sort of really try to manage through all of those critical questions. So to me, it is more of a comfort zone. Here is the underbelly of it though. I always joke, I'm like, I'm going to be that old woman in a shoe. Phil, I'm going to be the old woman in a shoe. I love. I love. I have two bosses in my life. They are my sons. I work for them. They tell me every day how I'm doing. And I have yet to get a perfect score according to them. But I'm trying. And so when I'm anchored towards them and home and household, the isolation factor is less about how I'm performing as leader. It's more about, oh boy, I don't have enough people checking in. And that's not a woe is me. It's just like, it can create exactly for all the reasons you talked about. You then become this sort of like you are seen in this one dimensional use case, right? And I have to be really intentional therefore to not end up having a very constrained way of living. So I invest in other communities, my faith community, my neighborhood community, my parent community. But I've got a man, oh man, do I have to work on it? It is. It does not come easy for me. Yeah. Yeah, I'm hearing you on that one. I really am. I mean, because yes, the study of introversion, extroversion, ottroversion, there is a test for it. There's a test for it. And if I administered at a certain point, yes as adults about preference and comfort, but in children, it sounds quite mean. But it's the idea of if you clap above a newborn, how much do they flinch? How much does it upset them? Because it's not so much a social factor as much as it is exposure to stimulus. So for instance, like the child that is just like hanging out, born, this happens above their face, hanging out, no dramas, extroverted, like high tolerance for stimulant, stimulation. That sense of this over some, it's like, blah, like and you've just set them off for the next half an hour and put them straight into like, fight or flight. And so that sense of introversion, extroversion, that's probably the part of the conversation that annoys us about like, oh, I'm an introvert. You're like, ah, relax. Relax. We all like our private time. Like of course, like we all like our private time. This is a different deal. And then that's that sense of what I love most about this conversation is you deliberately being expansive because you know that's a part of it too. Yep. I mean, I'm like, I'm mapping my thoughts here. But young, Cal, young, described our psyche, like strings on the guitar. And this is a long time ago now. And he said the mistake that we're making with our understanding of ourselves is we think we're monolithic. We think that that's who feel is. And it's like, is it not how it works? Like there's a part of you that wants to do this. There's a part of you that wants to do that. There's a part of you that wants to do this. So as much of me that like I'll be cheesy here with like a conversation of parts, as much of me that wants to crush some physical fitness goals, there's a part of me that just wants to eat cheeseburgers every day of my life. Yeah. Both are true. Both are true. There's a part of me that loves. And you know this, you know, like we get to work together, you know how much I love doing this work. And there's a part of me that never wants to do it again and sit in an apartment in Japan, just read books that I can catch up on. Both are true. Yes. And so when people get spooked by their own internal kind of drives, they're like, oh, what does this say about me? Like I don't feel like doing this today. And you're like, it's not important to plan. It's not important to the plan. It's not that you're a human being, right? That's right. So this is young and it's like this is so your psyche is more like strings on a guitar. It's learning how to play them all in harmony so that they make gorgeous music rather than our drivers or our drives or calling down which internal family systems going gang, gang, gang, gang. Because it's out of tune. It's like that's you. Like the parts of us that all have to work in harmony with each other. And I think just to stitch this into leadership just because we're cheesy, the people who earn the right or are more effective or get too over the long term are the people who have learned to do that for themselves before they try and do it on others, two others, four others, so that there's something that we aspire to in them. We want to follow them because there's a lot of humanity. So amongst the like the bullishness of capitalism and growth and adventure and pursuit, there's also the leader that's like, yeah, but how you going like you doing okay? And like, I mean, it's, it's, there's so much to it because I also think there's, there in lies a lot of the, the trappings of welcome to leadership. Because then all of a sudden you're like, okay, I got to, I got to go do when I got to go serve and I got to go be and I got to, and you're like, Sam out like 75% of what you got to do is like working on inside what's gone here? How are you doing? And you know this, you teach people on this, but it's like it really skips. It's to me, it's not even 50, 50. It's literally like 80, 20 is my house literally and figuratively in order. And it might be in order to your point on a Tuesday and on Thursday, we're a little jacked up. [BLANK_AUDIO] How are we doing? And then the 20% should flow ideally from that place, but it's really interesting 'cause leadership fairly unfair, I don't know the etymology of the word, but I just feel like it inherently assumes like others. Right? - This day. - Huh. - Right, and so all of a sudden, you're super like outward facing and like, we gotta go do and it's just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I need you to take a walk, like get some vitamin D. I also will share and be like super, that's why I'm in super listening mode all the time, but 'cause I just, that's where the power lies, right? So I'm often in just in conversation, in conversation, listening, listening, listening, verbally, nonverbal cues, like what's going on? 'Cause I'm trying to study and ingest as much as possible to then come up with like an idea or two or get people kind of walking in alignment. One thing I will say anecdotally though, again, 'cause we kind of go off the surface level script. I thought it was interesting, when I, there have been times where I've shared, it hasn't been recently 'cause again, I do believe that this is changing society or shifting a little bit, but even like two years ago, when I would share here, they're like, "Hey, this is me, this is what I do, here's my experience, here's my resume, here's my whatever." And during the week, like my priorities are that, like what I'm leading, the two bosses that I mentioned, like family, home, daily prayer, daily yoga, if I can get after it. And the last two were like, I could hear the laughter, like, "Really, that's silly." And why would you ever say that? That's so, you know, it was not taboo, but I could sense of like, "Well, that's odd, you're not supposed to say that thing out loud." And whether or not I should, I'm going back to the point of like, but those are critical ingredients to me being able to get to next week, y'all. Like you want me to try and do a good job so that you can do a good job. Totally. You're a poor, can do a job, like, that's the stuff. Yeah. It's not just about like my intellectual prowess. It's not even going to be about executional prowess. It's like all these other things. It's so big. Remember in COVID, where do you remember COVID, where everything shut down? Everyone's like, "Don't talk about the C-word." But I think one of the realizations in COVID, certainly was for me, was like the walk on the headland, the dinner with buddies, we enjoy those things for sure, and clinically describe them as coping strategies. And they're called coping strategies for a reason. So a coping strategy, 'cause I think people had a bit of a realization here, like, "Yeah, I enjoy Zumba, but actually Zumba's a coping strategy for my executive life." And so coping strategies aren't always like the negative ones or the ones that take more than they give, like alcohol or something, like that. All of our life is designed to support all of our life. And so if we're thought for, we can curate an experience that gets to be fun, gets to be generative, all the things. But hand on heart, like I sit in a sauna two or three times a week, like a fire, a wood fired sauna, little hippie town, love that. Because it gets to be something in my body, I love getting a good sweat on, but also it's quiet. And my life is really noisy. And so just sitting there and doing nothing. This is meditating in the way that you're gonna and to prescribe it, which is like, just sit there. Is it? Is all you have to do is just sit there. That's a coping strategy. I'm not doing that for anything else, except that it enables the bigger picture. It's generative in and of itself. Like if I come out of there, if I crawl out of the dirt, and I've got like a cracking idea, but I try not to do that. 'Cause I'm like, leave me alone. Like I'm just sitting here. - I love it. I love it because as well, I think even like sauna culture is taking on a whole new hype. And great, like again. - Yeah, it is. - Great. Like if the worst thing that comes from that is that we type A ourselves into sauna's, great, sit in the sauna. But to your point, it's starting to take on this, like do it so you can optimize for your performance. Like oh my God. - Oh, great. - Kim, where do we get to just like be fragile human beings? - Yes. - Life is hard. The other thing about COVID, but we all have these different stories in spades. I think it was more, we just didn't really have a good, cogent way of talking about like, oh, we're dealing with facing mortality on a timeline. We were in all, we're a little, quickly, then we thought we had to go. - Holy smokes. - Right? And so now we're gonna have all these like outgrowth. - Whoa. - I think we're still in that. And I think we'll be in that for a long, long time. But I think so too. - And it doesn't God forbid that it should take a pandemic, but I do think something collectively, sort of rattling the cage and to say, no, I need to go to the sauna because-- - Really big. - Whoa. Or I need to go yoga this out because like-- - You're gonna get this out. - Whoa. You know, it's, the point I wanna make is, I really think we need to validate not always the achievements of leaders or the like effectiveness of leaders. Like that, not only should be par for the course, that is the role. If you're in the role, you were expected to deliver. I like to deliver for impact, you know, like niceties only get us so far. At the end of the day, we're gonna have to impact some things. And that's hard enough itself. But like aside from the performance culture of leadership, there's also just, how are you caring for yourself and others because life is really hard? And if you're not doing that, I get concerned. - Yeah. - I get concerned. 'Cause I think we're modeling something that I don't want my kids to just assume is like, no, you'll be, you know, if you got your suit and tie and you like hit your KPIs out of the park, like you got it. That's not a good road. I don't think that road leads to a pretty place over time. - I agree. I think that your use of the word performative there is correct. Optics-driven, performative. I mean, like if I, like the performative yoga and you like-- - Yes. - And you've been to a yoga class where like the practitioner, like Yale's at you and you're like, "Whoa, what is it that we're doing here?" Like this is, this is not yoga, this is competitive stretching and how expensive is by like outfit and like how, you know, and the tokens of it, the moods of spirituality as compared to the practice of it. Like we've used this language before, that leadership isn't an achievement, it's a practice. And if it's a practice, it implies that I haven't cracked it yet. - Yes. - That's why I love leadership because for me, there's two great cauldrons, two great forums in life. What I do for work, the relationships that I have and a holy smokes, like if you're keen to grow, like you just go and ask because life will offer you some lessons in like your work life and anybody can grow so much, so fast. - Yes. - But that the sense of performing is stationary in opposition to learning. I mean, from a, from a like a growth perspective, like you've seen like the language that like we're either learning or we are displaying, we're either in an open state or a projecting state. And so that's sense of the performative aspects of leadership undermining the effectiveness of what it actually is. - The advantages and the opportunities of trying to get the right blend, of humanity and authenticity, and really actually the only way that you can get the overs and under the right, I think, is by like noticing how fire's too far and you're like, "I've got to bring that one back in." That one didn't feel very right. AKA mistake and then practicing, practicing, practicing, practicing over time. - And I love it so much. I think good leaders, any leaders need to have all the quivers and all the arrows. - Yeah. - And fire at will depending on the circumstance and really being able to discern, is this a time for a display? And like I gotta, we gotta really project out and just know and drive. And that's just a time for me to like, like quiet down and listen. And I think that's the art behind it. The thing that I would say though that really resonates with what you said is, I got, I think part of my nervousness is helping on this podcast. It's not just 'cause I don't wanna like disappoint you. This is the big part of it. Is I am really trying to be low profile undercover? This is not, I'm not, I don't come up for air much. And that is really a testament to many ways in which we think about that. But 'cause it's also like, that's not, that's not, needed. What I need to do, what I prefer to do is spend time with my people, my constituents, with the like talking and listening and concepting and getting into it. And then what might be true for one office is going to be really different for a different, I got to fly out there and really home in and talk to me. What's going on? And great if there is a sense of output or outcome or achievement through their work or their expressions because that will validate like, oh, okay, this feels like it's holding together. This feels real. This feels not talking head performative because that's not really, there are only particular moments where that's going to be in my estimation appropriate and well received right now. Yeah. Yeah. Knowing who to do that with and when is massive. It's massive. It's nice. But you and I share something in common around like having an inner sanctum, like a squad that I am unrepentantly open with one of my best buddies. He had me over dinner. There's 15 years ago and I really stuck with me. I don't know if I've told you this story because I come around for Sunday night dinner and like that's awesome. Thanks, man. And so like I put on some nice clothes and go around to his house and he must have seen it on my face. Like the house was a bomb site and he must have seen it on my face because like pretty soon after I walked in, like you're talking like normal life, right? And he said, oh, sorry, did you want me to clean up for you, sir? And then he slid a bowl of cereal across the kitchen counter and he said, oh, did you want me to cook for you? And he's like, let's make a deal from now on. This is no PR. Shout out to a PR tent. But he's like, this is not this is real. This is real. Public relations. Because yes, this is this is life. And so you can't do that with everyone. You will scare the hell as a leader. You will scare the hell out of your team. Yes. Yes. If you were like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. And they're like, oh my god. Yes. And that's what you're supposed to do. But there's a version of that conversation that you can have with your executive team. And then there's your inner sanctum. So there's wisdom for shop. You've got to have that no PR crew who you're just like, what on earth is this? I depend like, I love the story. I wish I was a good, you know what? In my next life, I want to be a great storyteller. I am so weak in that area and it's something that I just want to know. There it is. Visualizing a life. But I couldn't get through any of my big career outcomes without a crew where I always just think on it. Like you can close it or you can call them up and be like, okay, and be completely both strategic and unfiltered at the same time. But you need I have needed, I should say, I should not project. I have really needed those types of trusted thought partners where I don't have to be prepared or I don't have the answer yet. But I need you to, can we, can I just say a thing? Can I say it? Yes. Are you thinking it too? Yes. Can we, what's going on there? Let's talk about it. And then we'll come out and we'll be more, again, eloquent, effective procedural structured, impactful, hopefully. But I don't know where I would be without those mighty few. And it might take a different dimension. It's not always the same few depending on the initiative or the year. I do think that's also part of what I've learned over time is when you cannot manufacture that. But once you have that kind of earned co-authorship, that is where you go, you can really get some mighty work done. Because again, you're not in performance mode, you're just in, I'm really thinking very deeply about this. Or I'm very deeply concerned about this. I don't quite yet know where I want to take us next. What are you, what are you seeing in hearing? That little hive. Huge for me. Huge. I think people can be really deliberate about their squad personally. Because there's a version if we remix in some of the red threads that we've got here, you've got perceived social isolation, which is a deal. The more senior you go, the more likely it is to be experienced, the more you have to work against it, all the things. And so it's not always childhood friends. And it's not always college buddies. Sometimes you can go and get that for yourself really quite deliberately. And what I love watching in the lives of certain leaders is how they've built their squad out. And who's in their squad? Because you would think that it would be kind of like common territory would be the most generative squad to have. And you're, no, no, no, no, no. Because and what happens, I'd be too dorky to kind of try and draw it. But imagine like in any domain, you've got like a hierarchy. And so there's a lot of people to the base. The more specialized you get, the more of a leader you are, all of the things until you're in that rare, rare, and you're trying to sip some oxygen at the top of the mountain. Yeah. I find that like a world class chef has more in common at that point in the end with a world class snowboarder, with a world class video game creator than they do even people who are early in career in their same stack. And so that's not a comment on the humans. It's the fact that you get to a certain point where it's no longer about the subject domain expertise. It's about, it's about the life of leadership. It's about, is this what it's supposed to feel like? Am I doing it wrong? Yes. How do I get the time working out? Like, am I foolish in my ambition, like am I egotistical? All of those things that most leaders again, are like smashed their head up against on any given day. And the ability to call someone and go, am I bonkers? And for somebody to go, no, actually, that's called Tuesday. Yes. Yes. Yes. And, I think there's an interesting piece you're touching on as well. I would build on it to also say, thank goodness for the people I can call even outside of the, let's say, the core squad at work that I might, you know, tap into because my professional chef, thought partner that I can dial, also gives me perspective, the same way that my kids give me perspective. And I'm huge on this. Again, what are we not saying? Like, okay, I have an amazing blessed career in leadership opportunity in front of me. Cool. I get home. Do you think the two bosses that I mentioned care a little about that? Like, if snacks are not on the table, like, yes, that is the only, and some homework. If I call my proverbial chef or my skateboarder or whoever it is and say, hey, am I thinking about this the right way or how did you deal with it? One, you might get some great strategic targets. Awesome. The other part is like, we don't matter that much. No, no, no, get come, come back down this ladder of like the whole world's fate rests on the next decision I make. And it just kind of always brings me back to a baseline of perspective, right? And here's the irony of that. I actually think people at any company really respond as well to the calm that can come from grounded leadership. So it helps me as well to kind of unwind, pan out, zoom out, you know, it's so good. It's so good. Like it strings on the guitar. Somebody asked me this once, working in America. So it was like an American asking me the question. And I should say the United States of America, they knew that I have a daughter. Zan was really early at the time. She's like, the question was, are you raising Zan to be the president of the United States? I'm like, first of all, I'm a straight or Sarah O'Connor from Terminator. And I'm like, surely it's both because my goal for my own kids in as many ways. And I've got big beautiful hopes and dreams for us as a crew, right? My goal for myself as a dad is that success. And it's a definition of success that my kids want to hang out with me when they're all grown up. Good. And that downstreams into all kinds of goods. But for the kids, I want them to be comfy. I use the word grounded. And so as comfortable sitting by a fire eating beans out of a tin, as comfortable in like a Michelin style restaurant, you belong here as much as you can live here. Like that sense of comfort in their own skin. I'll have done a good job if we can do that because the skills beautiful, the adventure's beautiful. But if you can walk into a room with a regulated system, then you actually have access to those skills because you and I both know leaders who I've got certificates for days, 30 years of experience, and then hit the wall for like stress or anger at like that sense of calmness. - Totally. - Massive. - I also really, I value having lived in other countries and at a young age, 'cause they were formative ages. And so I mentioned, you know, like, really living in impoverished places in Latin America and then living in the Middle East. And this was all before college and it did all that in spades in a way that only living somewhere, not visiting and staying in a hotel that feels very familiar, right? Sort of just readyed me in ways that allow for me to be like, I've seen a bit, I've seen a little bit here. And so it becomes easier over time to sort of take advantage of that multiple perspectives in order to stay grounded or to just sort of remember what really matters. And there's a levity component. I'm somebody who also struggles greatly. I've known this for a long time probably, I've probably since I was a really young kid for a host of different reasons, but I'm serious to a fault. And I know that about myself. - Right. - I wish it was a better storyteller. I wish I was actually a comedian, like, actually funny. I just, you know, I wouldn't it be nice, but I'm more, again, I'm more like monk and monastic and reading the autobiography of a yogi and what have you. And why I really also need levity and lightness and outside perspective is also to be like, okay, it's not, this isn't even close to as serious as we would like to make it when we're talking about, like leadership podcast, like, okay, we're gonna replace that in the ridiculousness of life. And then how do we come back and approach that, right? - It's magical. Our emotional set points, by the way, are largely determined by our mother's mood during time of gestation. So you can like, shout out to him for that. - You didn't know that. - I don't know if that's. - So that sense of like, 'cause we literally, we swim in our mothers while all of that's coming together. And so if mom has like a big emotional run, it has the potential to create kind of like a sensitivity to certain things. And then I think like, however personality works, 'cause I'm not a domain expert in that. - Yeah. - But I also know that there's set points, which are almost like defaults, and then there are decisions, 'cause I'm quite, yeah, I'm good at being serious too. And to your word, you said lightness. I like the word buoyancy, which is this. Like, can I be above the chaos? Because really easy for me to go, oh, I look at all of this stuff. And especially being your word like an expansive person trying to suck in knowledge. Like what's going on in the world? And like what's really happening? What do they think about? What do they think about it? It's easy for me to drown in that sense of like, whoa, like there's a lot here. - That's a fear. - So the information diet, practicing buoyancy, it doesn't get rid of like the raging kind of storm, but it allows me to just, and I think sauna, is a part of that, I think. Definitely hanging out with the kids. I moan my backyard lawns. And like this is a really dorky thing, but that's important for me in the way that it keeps me grounded. 'Cause you might be hanging out with a CEO on a Friday, and then your home to make pizzas on a Friday night, which is moving night in our house, and then I'm mowing the lawns on a Saturday. - Yeah. - And then you get disconnected from-- - No, it creates a really good story. - Day to day life, you know? - That's right. You know, if you don't find me at a monastery, I'll be at the grocery store. That is my lawnmower. I love a grocery store. - Doing lots. - More than any, I will bit more than any person. - Well, I think so. - Because I just, I'm always like, do you have a grocery list? Do you have any groceries? I'll go get them for you. - I think to this. - Because it brings me some weird inexplicable, like this makes sense. Let's go. - Let's go. And so we all need these things to your point that sort of like take us out, but also keep us at baseline. And you, and I just think it's fundamental. I also wonder to, again, we do not have to go down the scripture road much, but I always notice, having spent so much of my time I've grown up in multi-faith everything. - Yeah. - Everything, right? And yet for the broader arc of my entire life, we really don't talk as much I find in my circles about how even Jesus was like a, I might get out of here, I sit on the mountain. Like the retreating leader. Like we don't talk, we always talk about like how, you know, if you actually go back, it's like, okay, I've had just about enough for today. - For sure. - You can find me over here. And there's something to that, I think. And I got as many, I've got the United Nations of belief systems in my closest circles and ways of living. And I love them all, thank you, God for humanity. So this is not about projecting anything, but it goes back to these themes of like, what do we focus on, societally, a lot, and what do we not focus on? And what we tend right now, at least in my life, is not focusing on the ways in which we can get, you know, a more holistic way of talking about like, we're people at the end of the day. There will be moments where we're like, I, I, I, I crushed that shit. We did it, team. And then there are other times where it's like, I just need to go to the grocery store 'cause it's, huh? I'm gonna have a nervous breakdown for now. - Yeah. - Can we talk about that? - All of that is true. - Yeah. - All of those things is true. - And you're exactly right. And this is, I mean, for the life of Jesus, it's actually some of my favorite moments in his existence. Like the idea of like his, he needed space. - By the way, like literally every other verse. - And there were days where he was like, "Hey, crowds big, I'm getting this boat, I'm a push off." - I'm obviously over here. - If you wanna talk with me, like, I'll do it from here. And then there's the night of like the raging storm when like he caught up to the boat 'cause he's already at like chilling. And like he started his ministry with 40 days of just getting outside of it all. - Exactly. - And you're right. Like this, as a practice, the space and the quiet and the slowing down, whether it's sadata good time at the Buddha, where he's like, I just got it, can you just give me a moment to think? In fact, I'm just gonna sit here until like something cracks. And for him, seven days, right? - Yes. - Whether it's Thor in the Norse mythology about like going on a great journey to Mims but to drink from the will of wisdom. There's always that journey of like quiet and space. - And to bring it back to being pragmatic again, as the leadership journey or the experience or whatever that might look like, it's, I just try to imagine like how different can our conversations be? If we're all kind of coming with that sense of each other. - Just bringing in what you've got to work with. - And does that unlock something different in terms of morale, collective energy, strategic planning, having difficult conversation? Like when you're coming from that prism, does something different open up for us along the spectrum of care and possibility and co-authorship and idea generation and psychological safety and all the things we talk about versus sprinting to the achievement culture leadership thing. You're like, oh my God. - Okay. - Okay. - I really hope we were here in two years, you know? - Yeah. I think that the humility that we talked about before, the intellectual humility in realizing that we're not zero point in the human experience that I am just having an experience and there's a lot of them. And one of my favorite things to remind folks of is that if my soul plunked into the world in Riyadh, I'm a Muslim. And if my soul plunk landed into Calcutta, I'm Hindu. And so much of my point of view in the world is preloaded in an engineered based on my experience. - That's right. - And so that sense of going, oh, there's a lot of this going on at the same time. How curious can I be and how willing am I to just go, this is what I've got to work with. This is how life worked on me to get me to this point. And there's my folks and this is what I find hard. This is what I find easy. And this is what I can bring to the table from like a capital market perspective. But to realize that I'm not this zero point of human experience and that everybody else is other, great place to start from. - And you know a lot more than I ever will on this, but I just, I've struggled throughout my entire career on, or I've witnessed the struggles and I have struggled myself at times on the over identification with career. - Wolf. - And you're just like, no, that's not who you are. That's what you're doing right now. And hopefully you're enjoying it and somebody's paying you well. Can we? But if we are not careful, and we really intertwine the sense of self and who I am in the world and my value in the world. - In mesh. - And exactly the enmeshing of that. And it gets wildly dangerous, I think, really quickly. I also think let's bring it away from even the extremes. How do we like better give and receive feedback? If I'm like, we're, I see you, you see me, how was your day, how are you? Like, your car broke down, how are you feeling? It wasn't a good day. I like, what's the vibe? Imagine then if I got really good, constructive feedback from one of my employees or one of my, you know, colleagues or anyone being like, hey, just a note, I mean, like, oh my god, you would immediately lean into that feed, but you like, and we would do it all the time. It would be interwoven to the very fabric of how we talk to each other because it's a sign of respect at that point. It's not a, it's not a something we wait for 10 months for now for the performance review. Right. And imagine the unlocks, imagine how much faster we can get a lot of really good work done because we're talking and interfacing that way. Cause we need it. There's parts, there's parts of me that I literally cannot see. And not metaphorically, like by design, I'm quite convinced this is by design. Rum Daz talks about it that are like a flashlight can't shine a light on itself. Yeah. Alan Watts, when he described it is like teeth can't bite themselves. So there's parts of us that it's almost like by design, I can't access that part of me. I need you to tell me what you can see so that I can go to work on it. Like, there's the doorky example is like, if I'm walking through the office and my fly's down, like this, that's cheesy, right? It's too cheesy. But if somebody points it out and says, hey, feel your fly's down, I don't go, oh, oh, oh, exactly. And like it's the worst day in the world. You go, thank you so much. Yes. Like, and you get on with the day. Yes. Yes. If we could, if we could, because feedback's a big one. It's a hard one. Like, that's a whole bucket. We should do a pod on it by itself. But if we could get to the point where we held the pursuit and the adventure of it more than the performative aspects of it. That's right. If I can, like, if I can just suspend judgment and throw rose petals at people's feet, if what they are saying helps me get to where I'm supposed to be going, let me cultivate that kind of attitude and belief, because I need it. I think that 100%. And as somebody who's frankly built a career on developing delivering services and products that nobody actually needs. Like, we're not saving lives. That's not, nope, there's no utility in what we are giving. It's just entertainment. And hopefully people are enjoying their football or they're enjoying their world of warcraft is that all wraps up into some of the proceeding themes. I think we've talked about where it also helps to then sort of say, hey, if we're in a good feedback loop because we've got high trust, storm rail, holistic approach to each other, all the things we've discussed. Like, let's do that more because it's not even close to that serious. It comes back to the point of perspective. We're wasting our players time. We don't, no one actually works for me. We, as an organization, work for people who want to have a great experience with our games. Yeah. So if they're in the boss, really, like we had best get rapid fire with the Frank conversations, the high trust were in this together because like it's actually not about me. And it's certainly not about how we receive the feedback. It's like we got to get what we get to do or, you know, we're here to do. So please tell me quickly. I love that. I actually really feel for folks in the knowledge economy. Like, by the way, that's me. And especially like my business name is my surname. Like, my name is on the door. And the sense of how people by virtue of the ecosystem in which we work need to become increasingly identified with their work. And so that sense of enmeshment is increasing because in the knowledge economy, you are the product. And so that opportunity for people to mask up to be at their best to manage the moment to understand how it happens. And it's something that I've wrestled with for a long time, which is we're either proving or we're improving. And so there's got to be go times when it's like, all right, friends, I've just put my tap shoes on, watch me go, like we're on. And this is perform mode. But the rest of the time, yeah, God, I have the guts. This is a team sport. We're going to need the crowdsource this. Here's what I've got. Here's what I definitely don't have. Can you help me out? In the knowledge economy, that's really scary for people because they think that all opportunities in Skonstein reputation management. And if I'm displaying, showing, pretending, masking, proving, I'm definitely not doing all the other good stuff. Well, and then imagine again, I always go back to it. And then under the water, the anxiety that that's likely building up in someone, that's just a lot to carry. And what I think the danger can be when I say these things, I'm sure that some people might hear it and it sounds like I'm diminishing something or I'm like being cavalier about it. And I'm yeah, it's actually quite the opposite. It's good to just because I get a lot of questions about like, how do you do what you know, how are you able to whatever like navigate or spend all this energy in this time? And I keep coming back to it's because at least for me, I am obsessively and emotionally focused on whatever the mission is. I'll put that in the job, the career, the mission at hand, the work mission at hand. And that's one of maybe four pillars max five pillars a week. And I, to your point on strings. And it's like religion to me. That's 200% here, 200% on the kiddos, 200% did I get some physical well being done? And did I get some spiritual well being done? If generally speaking, every week in some combo, those four things are being enriched and tapped into. Then we're off to the races. So I don't, I also don't want it to get misconstrued of like, just be above it. It's not that big deal. It's like it is the biggest deal to me. I am completely completely, um, committed and like vulnerable to the outcomes of what happens with my job and my role and the company that I represent and the people who are the company that full stop. And I think about it day and night non-stop. But in clearing out a lot of the other noise and clutter. Yeah. It allows for this ability to sort of hyper focus and then just when needed, hand back out and be like, okay, yeah. Let's go back in. Great. And, and so I just, I wanted to say that because I don't want it to get misconstrued of like, too cool for school. It's just a job. It's like, no, it's not that it's the complete opposite actually. Yep. With you, with you, with you, with you. For me, what comes to mind there is do less better. And because for folks who like us who want to go deep and want to go hard and want to go big and really want to honor the opportunity, um, hmm, to own the responsibility that comes with the opportunity. That's right. It means not doing too much. And in order to work out what is for me and what would be fun, but definitely is going to be another lifetime. I don't have that much time. Like that sense of a willingness to make decisions about who I am, how we manage time and the like, the practice that's required to build boundaries that don't annoy people that honor you, that get it all done. Um, I think that's massive. Do less better. You got to know what those things are though. Yes. That takes practice. May I look at the clock. We, I could literally do this all day. And I could do this over and over and over with you again, but we got to, we got to honor your time. Um, I'm so grateful. This has been a cracker and I really soul satisfying conversation for me. Thanks. Like, wow. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I feel very humbled by being invited to your party. So I, I really am grateful as well right back at you. All right, friends. It's been a few days now since my conversation with Johanna and boy, didn't we cover some ground, but you know what has stuck with me most in the day's sense is just how unscripted her path to leadership has been. You heard it for yourself. She didn't specifically set out to be a leader. She didn't map out a 10 year plan or build a spreadsheet of ambitions, but here she is sitting at the helm of one of the world's most iconic gaming studios. And I think there's something wonderfully human about that. You see, so often we are taught to believe that leadership is a ladder, something that we climb wrong by wrong in a straight line up. But when you listen to Johanna and when I look back on my own story too, that's when we realize that it's not a ladder at all. It's a series of pivots, of plot twists, of accidents and invitations that over time add up to be something meaningful. And the older I get, the more I think that the people who are most effective aren't the ones who are chasing precision. in their career journey as much as they are the ones who are paying attention. The ones who are open long enough for life to surprise them. And of course, they tend to be the ones willing to step into those opportunities with massive courage when they present themselves. Johanna said something that I keep thinking about, that she majored in comparative religion because she wanted to understand what people believe in. And I think that detail matters because underneath the resume and all the achievements and how brilliant they are, and underneath the title is someone who is willing to ask big questions. Someone willing to ask the question, why? And that to me is one of the real big parts of the apprenticeship of leadership, that curiosity that prepares us all to make an impact in the lives and the organizations that we leave. It's spiritual for sure, but not in a religious sense. But in the sense of staying awake to what's happening inside of us as we move through the world. You might have heard me reflect my own experience when I said that I had to break up with God to find a better God. Now that's a little while back now, but for me that moment when everything I thought I knew about truth fill apart was also likely the moment that started me on a journey into better leadership. It's not really about God, is it? For me it was about realizing that my certainty was closing me off to greater curiosity. It's when I stopped needing to have all the answers. That's when I finally started to listen. And that's why now, fast forward, a few years, it's why intellectual humility, the willingness to question what we think we know matters so much in leadership. And I think that's one of the currents that runs underneath Johanna's story, that quiet humility that comes from doing the inner work. It's that willingness to sit still long enough to hear what life is actually saying to us. I mean, you heard her joke that she's a clinically suffering introvert. But I think there is a deeper truth there too. That there's a difference between solitude and isolation. Solitude isn't isolation. It's a place where we get to integrate. It's where we reconnect with the parts of ourselves that so easily get drowned out by the noise of professional and leadership life. You know, I've always said that a big part of leadership is self-regulation. Yes, but leaders get to do it in public. They have to do it in public, don't they? And what Johanna and I circled around for nearly two hours that's so much of what enables our public leadership is what happens in private. It's the stuff that happens in quiet. It's the stuff that happens when you're mowing the lawn or you're sitting in the sauna or you're doing the grocery run when you finally let yourself be off duty. Contrary to the way that some people see leadership, those kinds of moments don't take you away from what it takes to lead. I think these are the moments that allow you to go deeper into it. Because I think that's when leaders can find themselves. When leaders don't find ways to be still, it's easy to confuse lots of activity for progress. And when we're confusing activity for progress, I think that's when we start performing instead of practicing leadership. And so when I look back on this conversation, the deep rag for me is really quite simple. That leadership isn't so much a plan to execute as much as it is an ongoing path to walk. It's not a performance. It's an ongoing practice. And Johanna reminded me that the best leaders continue to be students first. Curious, grounded, open, comfortable in the not knowing able to hold ambition in one hand, humility and the other. That's the work, isn't it? And so if this conversation did anything, I hope that it reminded you, as it reminded me, that our real development happens in the unplanned moments, in the quiet spaces, and in the willingness to keep learning even when we think that we are the ones that are supposed to already know. So thanks for spending some time with us today, and I'll see you next time for a good conversation. [MUSIC]