This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of The What Happened to Her Podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it and the man they suspected wore a badge. "You never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform." And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. "How do you know that cloud won't become manipulative?" "This is a constant worry." And you can actually catch the model thinking, "I think X is actually true, but I'm going to tell the user why." "I'm Walter Isaacson. I'm my new podcast, The Builders. I'm going inside the minds of the people shaping our future. Listen to The Builders starting October 13 on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast." In 1986, a man named Scott McLean was killed in broad daylight. Police quickly found their suspect. Prosecutors convicted him. But now, almost 40 years later, I'm re-examining this case. "I really didn't believe any of it was real and I was like, "Well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job." Has the wrong man been in prison this whole time? Listen to examined the Backfire Effect on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Darrell Bell, and I'm Kadeem Harrison. And together, we're the voices behind the newest podcast on the Black Effect podcast network, a different world view with Darrell and Kadeem. Each Thursday, we're rewatching an episode of the show that changed our lives a different world. We're sharing never before heard stories from behind the scenes and sitting down with other stars from the show to hear their unique perspectives. Listen to a different world view with Darrell and Kadeem every Thursday from the Black Effect podcast network on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On January 23rd, 2024, Paul Augustine heard a knock at his front door. "Share Superman!" "Okay, we're back. I'll be right there." "Mine if I step in?" "Thanks." "What's going on?" "Mine if I step in?" "I mean, kind of, yeah." "Okay." "Can you come on that topic?" Paul seemed reluctant to get too close to the officers, who were now standing in his living room. "I know, let me give it a never." "Why are you scared, Paul?" "Okay, because he's captured. I've never had this happening." "Take it apart. You're okay." "I'm rid of this and I want to let my mom." "What's going on?" "I'm really, really scared." The walls were closing in on Paul. I'm Andrei Gunning and this is Betrayal Season 6. Episode 5. Blind Spot. In the last episode of Betrayal, the wrong man was arrested for stalking and harassing Carl Bryan. All the circumstantial evidence pointed to Carl's ex, Adam Mejia. There had been a year of harassing messages, escalating in severity. All from spoofed phone numbers. "You'll have hell to pay." "Your new boyfriend should know the truth about what you did." "Why is it okay for you to just move on and show all I can wait for is the shit storm?" "That is about to reach out." "Should I show Andrew the proof with a sh*t I dug up?" "Good luck with School Board. Got Venmo?" "Not like anyone has access to all your information." "That before I go wrong with daily." The day after Detective George arrested Adam Mejia, she got a report back from the scoofing company. The results shocked her. Every single message linked back to one phone number and it wasn't Adam's. "I had been a pawn in Paul Augustine's game." He had set up Adam Mejia to take the fall for him. When Detective George learned the truth, she rushed to release Adam Mejia from custody. "I started making phone calls. I called the attorney's office and I said, "Hey, you got the wrong guy." And I said, "I am 100% sure you need to release him right now." Then she set out to question the real perpetrator. She and her partner, Nick Morrow, drove to Sam's club. That's where Paul Augustine worked. A manager offered them an office or they could speak with Paul privately, off the sales floor. The detectives didn't tell Paul they were coming. He seemed quite surprised to see them. As far as Paul knew, he'd gotten away with it. Adam had been arrested just as he'd planned. Instead of confronting Paul with the new information they'd found, detectives decided to engage in a bit of theater. For a lot of this episode, we'll be playing police body cam audio. Some of the names have been redacted as you'll hear. The detectives explained to Paul that they had come to tie up a few loose ends. They wanted to gather some outstanding evidence for their case against Adam. And by the way, you'll hear some background music playing in the store. I feel bad. It was a game of pretend. For both the detectives and for Paul. So Paul shifted the subject. He wanted to know why the authorities had shown up to his workplace unannounced. I was just uncomfortable because I was like, you know, it makes me look bad and it worked. Oh no, we told him you're not in trouble or anything. We just see it. Yeah, you're a good dad. I always assumed like, I think when you see police, like you're just like, oh my god, what happened? I even get nervous if I get pulled over. So I am a cop so I get it. Yeah, detectives put polities. But of course, Paul had every reason to be nervous. The cops knew exactly who they were talking to and they wanted to keep them talking. Paul brought up Adam asking how much trouble he was in. If he was facing felony charges. And it's actually a felony. Stalking is automatically a felony with Wisconsin. Oh, good. Detective George redirected the conversation. She wanted to know, how was Paul connected to Carl and the harassment? Well, like, how did you get drawn into this? Are you really close? We are really close friends. I've known her for, well, about 10 years. Oh, okay. So, but we've never actually dated or anything like that. We've just been, we've like explored the idea, but it's never actually like turned into that. Detective Morrow started pressing Paul a little bit further. So, you guys are best friends, right? Are you guys like really close best friends that I'm assuming? Yeah. So, you guys share everything and hang out all the time and all that. Of course, yeah, super often. I'm seeing him probably over the weekend, you know, just like for the Packer game or something. Right. Paul has been pretty traumatized by these and scared of me too. Yeah, yeah. I can imagine that you're pretty scary. I think Paul did his best to regain control and turn the focus back to Adam. Now that he's been arrested, has he, have you guys even searched his phone? We're working on that. So, no one else uses your phone before they could have gone in and like, no, use your information. Have you ever like lost your phone? Or I guess you always have your phone with you. I've lost it before, yes. And how long was your phone lost? When I say lost, I mean like, misplaced. Did it know it was? Oh, yeah. For like maybe one hour or two. We've been asking everybody this. Have you ever gone or like any type of smoothing apps or anything like that? We tested out one just to see it like just because we were curious what and what doing. But like, I mean, I just deleted it right away. Do you remember the name of that one? To be honest, no. Oh, yeah. And so I wrote search where I saw a couple of different spoof companies. Okay. And one of the apps showed that you had enough of. Okay. Do you remember that? Well, like I said, we did download one just to like test it out. Because I've been leery about, you know, it's like my phone has been hacked. So unless he was able to download another one that I'm unaware of, yeah, I don't have much for you. Okay. So the issue is that. Yeah, some of these messages that are being sent for coming from your phone. Well, that's weird. Okay. I'm unaware of that. I mean, what am I supposed to say? Yeah, that's what we're talking about. Detective George Aspal, if he'd be willing to sign a form, allowing them to do a forensic download of his phone. Do I have to agree to that? I have to. No, I'm going to just make it a lot easier. I don't really feel comfortable with that. This is really intense. And if he actually did have the ability to spy on our phone, he's been able to do that. Okay.
I don't know if he's hacked at both of our phones, you know, you very well could have put a lot of stuff on whether it's my phone Paul was clearly uncomfortable. The detectives told him they needed to search his phone. They said it could help in the case against Adam. It would help us out in the long run too, especially with charging him further with everything. It would, okay. If Paul didn't have anything to hide, giving over his phone shouldn't be a problem. Um, can I think it over before I like sign something? We'll just need an answer probably by the end of our conversation today. If I sign that and then, so it would actually be good if you did find something because then worst case like if I don't sign that, would he not even get in trouble or I don't really know. It's legal for detectives to lie to suspects, and that's what Detective Morrow did. He told Paul that yes, if he consented to the search of his phone, that evidence could help keep Adam in prison. It'll be just easier for the judge to be like, yeah, this is concrete, he's staying. But Paul still didn't want to give up his phone. He reminded detectives about other evidence they already had against Adam. It's like, you broke the no contact order from what I remember. And then you even heard his voice on the fake report that he made about the thing with feeding up the dogs or whatever. Yeah, I heard it. So like, isn't that alone, you know, regardless of extra things, enough to charging with whatever. If he's got a good lawyer, you never know. Would I be able to see one more thing on your phone? What do you need? Just your IP address? Yeah, I just don't feel comfortable like giving out really anymore info. And please don't take it for yourself. I know you guys are doing your job. It's more that like, I wish I could have come to you really like popping off the art and I don't know. So like, I just don't really want to give out anymore info. When it was clear, Paul wasn't going to cooperate. Detectives gave up the act. Detective George looked him straight in the eye. And for the first time, told him why they were really there. So we are going to be seizing this phone's evidence. Okay. What do you mean by that? We are seizing it and taking it with us as evidence. So I can't have my device. No. So we are going to be wearing a search warrant for it. Okay. Because we know what's going on. Do you? The terms of. Why are you so nervous? And what's on that phone that you think we know about that you don't want us knowing about? What do you mean, like. You know what I mean, dude. I don't mean to be rude. But we just told you that your phone number is being associated with a spoof thing. And it's a little bit more than just one time doing it. Detective Moro was getting frustrated. He told us he'd come there half-expecting Paul to confess. When you first meet Paul, that was my first time seeing him. I'm like, "It's no way this guy isn't going to crack." He looks like someone that you tell him we got everything, he's going to be like, "Oh shit, I'm caught." But that just wasn't the case. And I was actually kind of pissed off that I didn't get consent that day. Despite Paul's protests, detectives took his phone into evidence. Before we leave, we're going to give you one last opportunity to tell us anything you want to tell us. I mean, like, so you're going to look through our list of whether or not something's been deleted or whatnot. Like, what are you exactly? We're going to find whatever is on your phone. Okay. Like, if you're so convinced that it's me, then how come was even arrested in the first place for this? Adam's name is redacted. But what Paul wanted to know was, "Why did you even arrest Adam if you think it's me?" That's when Detective George finally told Paul the news that Adam had been released. Oh, I didn't realize. Okay. Wow. For a year, Paul had been the puppet master. He'd manipulated Carl. True. Adam. He'd even manipulated investigators. But now, he was no longer pulling the strings. Detective Morrow gave Paul one last opportunity to give consent for his phone to be searched without a warrant. What's the difference, even? The warrant is no longer. So basically, it just drags the whole thing out, yeah. Then, for once, Paul said something that was the complete truth. Well, I'm gonna drag it out. And that's exactly what he did. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide. She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place. With a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. She did all of these grave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year. I never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. Listen to What Happened to Her on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. If there's a million times more digital intelligence than there is biological intelligence, it's hard to imagine humans being in control in that scenario. I'm Walter Isaacson, host of the new podcast, The Builders. Right now, we're living through an AI arms race. So I went directly to the people shaping that future. Elon Musk, Derio Amade, Alex Carp, Thaife Leap, Almar Lucky, because I wanted to understand what the most consequential builders believe, what they feel, and where they think this is all headed. Silicon Valley is always saying the cliché thing about the way to predict the future is to create it. Well, yeah, it's up to us. But when you say us, who's us? Is it 400 people that you know in Silicon Valley? Is it me down here in New Orleans? They're brilliant, controversial, and they're already shaping the future. The question is, who's imagination do we want to live in? This is going to determine the fate of nations and economies and the future of humanity. Listen to The Builders on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hamza, and I'm Martin, and we're the host of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them going around, but why should you listen hours? Well, we're only the best podcast in the entire world, and we talk about pretty much everything under the sun. For example, music we're listening to, underground music, trending music, drama in music worlds. Yes, sometimes we even talk about just everyday mundane situations in our lives, like the cool Uber driver we just had, or the food we just say that is surprisingly delicious. Or we'll talk about the Med Gala and the looks that they wore. Are they awesome? Are they trendy? Come find out. Because our opinion matters, and so does yours, and this is a place where all of our minds can come together and connect. So what are you waiting for? Come connect with us. Listen to Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Josie Duffy Rice. I'm a journalist who covers the criminal legal system. And over my career, I've heard account after account of prosecutorial misconduct, story after story of injustice. But I've never heard a story quite like this. The more I kept reading that stuff, I thought, "Man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over." We'll hypnotize them to strengthen that memory. So we went into a good France. I really didn't believe any of it was real, and I was like, "Well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job." Listen to Examined, the Backfire Effect, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the morning of January 19, while detectives were questioning Paul at his job, Carl got a call. The Kenosha Sheriff's Department wanted to see him and his boyfriend Drew. It's delicate work telling a victim of a crime that their theory of the case is wrong, and that the real perpetrator is their closest friend. That would need to be an in-person conversation. When Carl and Drew got to the station, Deputy Roy's greeted them. Essentially, we just got to go over a couple of things. Because it's the last process, we just need to talk to you separately. We'll talk with Andrew first.
What was the point in bringing in Carl and Drew for an interview and then separating them? That's standard course in any investigation. People, whether they know it or not, kind of feed off of each other, but it's also just trying to make sure that all of our bases are covered and trying to connect the dots of like, did one of them possibly know about this? The sheriff's department had already arrested the wrong guy and they weren't about to make the same mistake twice. Before they could arrest Paul and say that he was the sole mastermind, they had to rule out all other possibilities. Deputy Roers walked through down a hallway. Carl was led to a small lounge and asked to wait. As the minutes ticked by, he grew anxious. What was taking so long? It was probably for about a good half hour I was by myself and I'm like okay so what's really happening? And then eventually the door opens up, Drew walks in, we switch places and Drew has a look on his face that he's very red. That is not a face I've seen on him before and I thought oh my god something bad is happening. Carl followed Deputy Roers to a conference room with gray walls and a small oval table. Another detective was there to assist. Immediately Deputy Roers dropped the act. So I'm going to start off a little bit of false pretenses why would we brush you guys over here? Okay okay. I talked to you about how we went up, we served the search warrant. He was referring to the search warrant of Adam's home. Despite going through Adam's electronics, they couldn't find anything to prove he was behind the harassment. The deputy also brought up Adam's interrogation and how firm Adam was in his innocence. He was extremely cooperative, extremely cooperative. He let us go through his phone, he let us go through his computer, we took both of those things. I mean we've scoured everything. Last night Detective George got one of her search words back from the spoofing companies. After reading these messages, they sound like they come from somebody who intimately knows your life. Yeah. Can you think of anybody who would know this much detail that probably isn't Adam? I'm really curious. Why not just tell Carl straight up, it was Paul. Just human nature, we only see what we want to see. They believe that Paul was their friend. And especially with Paul spamming himself so that he could look like a victim too, I don't think that they could comprehend how it could have been Paul. So I think we were trying to get them to get to that conclusion themselves. For nearly a year, Carl had clung to the fact that Adam was the perpetrator. He'd spent months convincing authorities of the same. Authorities couldn't just come right out and tell Carl he'd been wrong and that the real perpetrator was his best friend of all people. He'd never believe them. Can you think of anybody who would have this intimate detail that would know this stuff? Carl tried to think it couldn't be his mom or his sister. It couldn't be Drew. And in his mind, it couldn't be Paul either. He does not have a delicious bone in his body and he's not tech savvy at all. There's nothing that had gone on in the friendship, the course of my friendship that I have had with or there would be any sort of motive that he is trying to break up me and Drew or he's trying to get some sort of revenge on me. Carl reminded detectives why Adam was the only logical perpetrator because the harassing text he received referenced very specific moments from their relationship. The text messages that I have received were all based on my relationship with him. Stuff about like a visit to white castle when we were dating. There were so many more examples. Details only Adam would know. The guilt Carl felt for not calling in Uber the night of Adams DUI. The Valentine's Day card Adam sent from prison. The baseball cap Adam took when they broke up. I couldn't tell if anybody else. Only Carl had told someone else. He just didn't remember. That's how much he trusted Paul, how enmeshed Paul was in his life. Detectives realized Carl wasn't going to come to this conclusion on his own so they had to ask him directly. But he ever noticed Paul Augustine acting strangely. Carl was taken aback. He racked his brain as he replayed the last year in his memory. One or two moments with Paul stood out like how Paul handled the text he was getting. He was getting a death threat. Someone's not going to make it out of this alive. And if you're stupid and show him this message, it just might be you. I'm sitting here talking on the phone with him for 45 minutes and I'm like, dude, you have to file a police report. You are getting a death threat from this text message. But instead he's crying to me about like how it makes him feel and how he just wanted to make sure that like we all feel safe and supported. Are there any other instances like that? There was another time where three of us had met with you to sign off on those statements. These were incident reports filed in the early days of the harassment. And I was like, you need to sign this. You know, because if you don't sign this this this this I'm afraid that this won't lend as much credibility to what's like this ongoing investigation. But Paul resisted. He didn't feel comfortable getting involved with the cops. It was just a little frustrating though because it felt like you know we had come this far, you know, an investigation was happening. Signed the paperwork, get the thing going, and he was kind of dragging his feet. Still, Carl couldn't see Paul as being the perpetrator here. I've known him for 10 years. I'm pretty good at reading him. Like I know, with like his PS and Carl would have to see the evidence himself to believe it. The deputy took a deep breath and slid a piece of paper across the table to Carl. It was the report from the spoofing company. So this company it's called spoof card and it's like it's an app that you that you can get on your phone. Yeah. And so basically you have to put in a phone number to to verify you and the phone number has to, it has to be a legitimate phone number. Yeah. Would it surprise you to know that those are registered? The redacted name was Paul's. Would Carl be surprised to know that the spoofing app could be traced back to Paul? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely a hundred percent. The deputy is pointed at the piece of paper in front of Carl. All the spoof texts and calls. Sentent. All the very single one of these. Every text, every spoof call, every threat, the tow trucks, the extortion, the nude photos, the police rushing to his home. It was all tied to one person. Paul Augustine. During the news, Carl just stared at the cops and he bet his lip saying nothing. I asked Carl to take me back to that moment. I'm sitting there in the room like completely dumbfounded. My stomach hit the floor. Paul did it. He used the information he knew about my relationship with Adam and used all that against me. I mean, it was like just the wait. Everything is crashing down. Carl left the station with Drew at a side. The two of them walked through the parking lot in a days. It didn't really hit me until we got to our cars. We both gave each other a hug and we were just like, oh my god, I can't believe this. Carl drove home, feeling numb. That's when he got a notification, a message from Paul. Detectives had just stopped in to question Paul at work and they'd taken his phone into evidence. He messaged me on Facebook and was like, I'm just so shocked by everything that's happening right now. And I can't believe all these things that I'm being accused of, but I just want you to know that I'm not a stalker. I never have been or I ever will be. That's just not me. Carl ignored the message. He was in shock, trying to process everything he'd just learned. The concrete evidence he'd seen, tying his best friend to the crimes. But Paul was desperate to get a hold of him. To convince Carl, this was all just one big misunderstanding. In Paul's frenzy to attempt to reach him, Paul enlisted the one person who would always support him. His mother. We don't know what Paul told her about the police investigation, but based on the voicemail she left Carl, I probably wasn't the truth.
you any further after leaving this message I'm with Paul. He is completely traumatized. He was infarigated by Tenochtia Police Department this morning. They seized his phone and are accusing him of being a part of your harassment. We are in a world of panic and disbelief that this has come to this now where Paul is being accused of this stuff. I'm looking for clarity, Paul's looking for clarity and what is going on. I'm Melissa Jeltsin and in my new podcast what happened to her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her frankly was a little bit of luck because by all rights I should be dead. They can't convict her right like she has so much evidence. And we were babies. She did all of these grave things and came out and spoke about it and he got a year. Listen to what happened to her on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Walter Isaacson, host of the new podcast The Builders. Right now are living through an AI arms race. Elon Musk, Derio Amade, Alex Carp, Feifei Lee, Palmer Lucky because I wanted to understand what the most consequential builders believe, what they feel and where they think this is all headed. Well yeah, it's up to us. They're brilliant, controversial and they're already shaping the future. Listen to The Builders on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or ever get your podcasts. I'm Hamza and I'm Martin and we're the hosts of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them to listen to these days. How are you going to get to us? Well, there's a specific reason why you should listen to us. We are the best podcast in the entire world. I swear. I know, bold. But why don't we list some of the things we might talk about on a regular episode? So sometimes we'll talk about I don't know the Uber driver we just had. And how nice they were or if we tip them or not come and find out. Sometimes we'll talk about that weird news story from last week. It's the one you're thinking about. Trust me. Or maybe we'll talk about music and what's happening in the underground or drama music or TV shows or the Med Gala and what the actors wore. What we're saying is we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun. And if you want to see what that's like, come join us. It's a place where everyone can hang out to anyone, wherever you're from, whatever you're like, you're welcome. Listen out of character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Pods or wherever you get your podcasts. The more I kept reading that stuff, I thought, man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over. We'll hypnotize them to strengthen that memory. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Listen to examined the Backfire Effect on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Paul denied any involvement in harassing and tormenting Carl. But after seizing his phone, detectives had access to Paul's search history. Paul's Google searches read like a blueprint for the last year of chaos. You're just some of his searches read by a voice actor. How can I send a text message and make it look like it came from someone else's phone number? Towing services that don't require you to be there. How to get revenge on someone without the knowing online? Ways you can fuck with someone without police. What are the chances of being caught spoofing? Then there were the searches that targeted Drew. Paul conducted numerous searches for quick trip. The convenience store where Drew worked. He also searched. What will get you fired from quick trip? You may recall someone called the manager at the quick trip and complained that Drew had been behaving inappropriately with a minor, which wasn't true. Paul's search history connected the dots. How would someone frame someone for harassing a minor? How to get minor's names? A list of kids at Bradford High School. There were also clues into how Paul tried to frame Adam. With the forensic phone evidence and the spoofing app report, detectives were finally ready to take action. What happened next was captured on police body cams. Some of the names have been redacted. On January 23rd, 2024, just before 5pm, detectives George and Maro knocked on Paul's door with the team of other officers. No one answered, so Detective George knocked a little harder. The door swung open, but no one had answered it. It hadn't been fully closed. Sheriff's apartment. Okay. Okay, we're back. I'll be right there. Okay, sorry. Your door bounced open. I was not going on it. Thank you so far. That's okay. Oh my god. Can I put those on? Get shorts on. Paul called down from the top of the stairs. He was, in fact, only wearing pants. No shirt. Okay. Mind if I step in? Oh, you're fine. I don't mind. I don't mind. You can step on. I know, but I don't want to leave with no clothes. You're not going anywhere. I'm scared. Just go inside. You're safe. I'm not going to hurt me. Are you? No, absolutely not. You've met, you know me. I'm scared. I've never been scared, Paul. I've never had this happen. Take it up. You're okay. Man, please put a shirt on. I got to come up there with you. All right. And I want to let my mom go. What's going on? I'm really, really scared. He was freaking out. And he had a really good way of acting scared. He's a victim. This is all BS, but it was crocodile tears. After Detective Moro escorted Paul through the process of getting a shirt on, the two of them came back downstairs and sat down at the kitchen table with Detective George. Okay. So we just wanted to talk about where in the scene you've had a chance to kind of think of anything, if anything else is in regards to the whole- The whole incident. Well, I mean, that's why I've been in contact with a lawyer and such, but like what was more specific- If you recall anything- About the situation? Yeah. Anything you think might be important. I mean, it's just been been emotional. It's been, it's been hard because I don't consider myself- I mean, I know not even do I not consider myself, but I know that I'm not the one who initiated all of this, you know, that started any of this harassment and then you guys showed it with my work, caught me off guard. I was offended by the fact that you guys kind of came at me in sort of an accusatory type of way. So, so you remember when I talked to you last time I explained you the number one we don't we don't think you're a bad person. I know you're not a bad person. I know that this just kind of got out of control. I don't think that you meant to truly hurt anybody, of course, truly get anyone in trouble. No. Okay. I think maybe you just got a little bit carried away. Now that I've gone through your phone, I want to hear yours. I just, and I'm being totally respectful you guys. Without a lawyer, like I just do not feel comfortable going into the details of that, and I don't say that to be offensive. I don't
and say that to be rude to any of you guys. I hope you don't take it that way. - I don't at all. - I just don't feel comfortable at being interrogated about it. I mean, even for the phone, I like, I said I didn't consent right away to a search of the phone. You know, I said like you guys would have to go to warrant in order to do so from what I recall. - I'll try to. - Which we do, okay. - And I found everything you've been doing. - I don't know what this guy is. - Okay. - Is there anything that you would like me to know just from your side of things? - In case that I don't want to comment on that stuff, it don't. - All right, so take a deep breath. Stand up, you're on your arrest. - Okay. - Where are your shoes? - Oh, I grabbed them. - Yeah, we'll get them for you. - You're not gonna fight? - No, of course not, I'm not scared. - Take a deep breath. - You're not gonna be hurt. - You are not gonna be hurt. - Will I be able to eventually call my mom? - Absolutely. - That's just right now you can't call her offending but a jail phone. You know how it works in terms of like bail or like, - So you're not gonna have a bail right now? - Yes. - That's felony offenses. So you're gonna see a judge tomorrow or the next day at about one o'clock and then he will set some sort of bail for you. - So will explain everything a little bit further to you in the car. I'm gonna have you face away separate feet. - I thought that's usually how it works. I thought it's the one who can't deal with you out. - That one is a felony. - Ever? - Or not in a connoisseur. - Oh yeah. - While Detective George stayed with Paul in the house, more went outside. Paul's mother Joan had just arrived. - I'm Detective Moral with the Connoisseur County Sheriff's Department. My partner Detective George and a couple other officers are inside right now, okay? Not right now. He's gonna be coming out. He is in custody with us. - Oh God. - Okay. - He's 24. - He's gonna have quite a bit of charges. Just stay right here with me real quick. He'll be able to call you when he gets down to her jail, okay? - We'll be able to be bonded out. - Not tonight. - Mom, they said they can't stay over yet. - Just then, Paul came out of the house, in handcuffs with a team of cops all around him. - Can I give him a hug? - George, George. Are you okay if she gives him a hug real quick? - Paul's mom briefly wrapped her arms around Paul's shoulders. Then the police let him away. - You might ever get a good field out? - I'm gonna do everything that's in my mind. I thought I'd get a good field out, hold it. - Paul, just breathe, breathe, breathe, breathe, honey. - My reflection on his behavior during their rest is that he wasn't scared of law enforcement or he was scared of facing the consequences of what he had done. - Everything with him was calculated to a T. So I'm sure he had it in the back of his mind. - If I'm caught, this is how I'm gonna act. And he did it well. He's very good at the manipulation and putting on some sort of show to make him the victim. - Detectives calmly place Paul in the back seat. They buckled his seatbelt, warmed up the car while they spoke with Paul's mom. - I kind of comfort her, explained that he's gonna be safe. Here's where he's going, here's what's happening. - I'm sorry, but I feel like I died, I feel like I died. I feel like I'm dead, not long with him. - The mom was so hell bent that there's no way he could have done this, no way in hell he would do this. - Afterwards, everyone was left with the same question. Why? Why did Paul do this to his best friend? Detectives had a theory about Paul's motive. They asked him about it back when they questioned him at work. - Why would you do this? - I mean, why are you accusing me of, and I mean-- - Are you in love with, do you love him? - I mean, as a friend, yes. - Yeah, do you have any feelings towards him in any other way? - Not, I mean, at one point maybe, like we both have feelings for each other a little bit, but I mean, like I told you earlier, like never progressed into anything. - Do you wish it ever did? - Not, especially with all this drama, but what about like before this drama? - At one point maybe, but no, not anymore, not at this time. - In so many cases, the question of motive goes unanswered, but that wouldn't be true in Paul's case, because there was one more piece of evidence that would soon come to light. - Just one thing, and I would tell the same thing to anyone, you have to prove to me you're not recording me. A four-hour recording, where Paul explained what he did, and why he did it. - It was just like, helping Dan, if they're gonna like be happy. - It was all captured on camera, and Paul had no idea. - I'm not playing guilty, that's for fucking sure. - That's next time on Betrayal. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, or wanna tell us your Betrayal story, email us at
[email protected]. That is betrayal
[email protected], or follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod, or me @it'sundraygunning. To access our newsletter and additional content, and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and produced by me @it'sundraygunning. Written and produced by Carrie Hartman and Kaitlyn Golden. Our story editor is Monique LeBord, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our production manager is Kristen Mulcuri. Our associate producer is Leah Jablow, additional support by Carrie Richmond and Olivia Hewitt. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinchek, audio editing and voice acting by Tanner Robbins. Mixing and mastering by Matt Delvecchio with additional editing by Dean Welsh. And special thanks to Carl Bryan, Adam Mahia, Matt Roelsey, and their communities. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by my music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snow storm. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. How do you know that cloud won't become manipulative? This is a constant worry and you can actually catch the model. Thinking, I think X is actually true, but I'm going to tell the user why. I'm Walter Isaacson. Listen to The Builders starting October 13th on the iHeart radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1986, a man named Scott McLean was killed in broad daylight. I really didn't believe any of it was real and I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me, they're going to do their police job. Has the wrong man been in prison this whole time? Listen to examined, The Backfire Effect, on the iHeart radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. From shocking betrayals to carefully planned murders, The Black Effects New Original Podcasts series, Bloodline Crimes hosted by me, Morgan Wood, explores the darkest and bizarre cases where family became the most dangerous threat of all. Listen to The Black Effects Bloodline Crimes every Thursday starting October 8th from The Black Effects Podcasts network on the iHeart radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.
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