Blimey, O’Reilly: Carabao Cup glory for Manchester City against Arsenal: Football Weekly

This is The Guardian. Hello and welcome to The Guardian Football Weekly, the OO Riley final, Manchester City, when the car about cut, two goals for Nico as pep danced with anyone and everyone. He played a reserve keeper who was good, our Tessa played a reserve keeper who wasn't. But Arsenal didn't really turn up. What does that mean for the rest of the season? Could they come second in everything? Arsenal fans are still on track to celebrate a Spurs relegation. The fans stripped of the streets in their thousands to try and motivate Egor Tudors men. This would be the turning point. narrator, it wasn't the turning point. A massive win for Forest. Fortunately for Spurs, West Ham got battered by Villa and leads through a blanket home to Brentford. In the race for top five, should we include the bees and should we include Everton, who dispatched Chelsea 3-0? Aren't a slots under more pressure after defeat at Brighton and Manchester United's progress is sort of haunted at Bournemouth. Where will Sunderland put Brian, Broby, Broby, Broby statue? A last minute winner at Newcastle helping the black cats do the double over their neighbours. We'll do all that, answer your questions and that's today's Guardian football week, please. On the panel today, Seb Hutchinson, welcome. Hello. Hello, Dan Bardell. Hello, Max Ruchton. Good morning, John Brewin. Good morning. We begin. Oh, you son very sad, John. With that. What say? Yeah, he's everything okay. Everything's fine. Everything's just fine. Great. Let's start our wembley then, Manchester City 2 Arsenal, NIL, two goals for Nikoa Riley, Pepp's fifth lead cup. Hey, his first win against Arthetta at Arsenal since April 2023. Arsenal have lost more lead cup finals than any other club in the competition's history. Seven. Simon says, did Pepp think it the right amount? And that's a good question, John, isn't it? I mean, City was so dominant in this game. You feel like Pepp was just. It was just all power, all conquering Pepp that we sort of haven't seen for a little while. Yes, the tactical master puts on a tactical masterclass. He was ready for Arsenal, wasn't he? I mean, Arsenal, the first half, you would say, probably were the better team without really doing that much of it. You have to say, though, in my mind, I is the Arsenal trying to pass the ball around the back, dallying on the ball, Kepper, who I'm sure we'll get to later, having the ball. That's not really hurting anyone, is it? City just pressed Kepper Arsenal where they want it to be. And in matches like that between top teams, it comes down to a mistake. City seized on that mistake, then built on that mistake. Nico, Riley, where did they find this guy? He's been brilliant, has any all season, and then, you know, at such a young age, he's a Stan Matthews writing his name into a final. Absolutely brilliant from him. City were truly worthy winners. It's funny, isn't it? They're so used to going to Wembley. Maybe that formed part of it. Arsenal have got very, very excited about this occasion, you know, I saw footage of the box park. I heard several versions of my favorite song, "Northland and Forever," and it just didn't happen for them. It felt very, very flat. But I think the credit has to go up, Hattigaralio, who really, really enjoyed this, didn't he? His post-match celebrations, calling over friends and relations to celebrate with him. At that point, do you think it's a bit like you're in clock winning the Nico? Well, we'll have to see. But it was a great occasion for Manchester City. Credit to Pep, credit to City. Oh dear, Arsenal. Yeah, just on Pep's celebration, Seb. I don't know how much we should read into them. Like John says, you're meant to enjoy, rather than thinking what's the impact on the title race. You win a cup, that's great. But I'm too lazy to look back on how Pep has celebrated previous carabell cups. But it felt like, it felt like there was a real significance to this. Like he knows he's going or he's so pleased, they beat an Arsenal and he thinks that means they can go on and win the treble, I think they could. You know, what am I reading too much into this? I think you are, because, okay. Guardiola, we can't take anything from his body language. He's this special individual in the sense that whatever we think we want to almost garner from his body language and how he is with his players and everything, he'll switch. He'll go completely to the opposite what we think. So we think, oh, Pep's really sad and he'll reply with, uh, no, no, not at all. No, I'm really happy. And that is Pep Guardiola. He will be that person. He has everybody on strings. And of course, he knows deep inside what he wants to do at the end of the season. But because he's so used to winning, because his career template is if he doesn't win, then something's not right. And that's also how he's analysed as well. I think in the build up to this game, it was incredible. The amount of people saying that Pep Guardiola is done, his time at the top is over. Has he got the energy for this? And when you break down a look at his team, you can see where the flaws are in his team. But the great strengths of his team are enough to win trophy still. And we saw that in this game. He knew that if he could nullify Arsenal's attacking threat, then City would make opportunities. In the league fixture, of course, he adopted a different approach and he's trying to switch things up with our tetra each time to keep him guessing. City won't do the same thing when they play at the eti head. That's for sure in the reverse league game. So it was fascinating to watch because you saw at the beginning of that second half, you're watching that spell during the spell when Keber had the ball and was holding onto it. You could see what was going on quite clearly and you could also see where Arsenal have struggled in games, even recently against Brentford, in the game against Wolves, they struggle to play the ball out from the back and he would have identified that. They don't have what they do have his only 16, but they don't have a one-on-one player who can really change the game in a moment in the way that I think City do to an extent to player level. And he knows his team is good enough to still overhaul Arsenal at this point. If he had a more resolute side, aside from one more thing, maybe a Liverpool under Klopp who were this far ahead, he probably would give up. I think he still believes he can get to Arsenal at the back end of the season. I was on Pep Watch, like you, Max Orre. I am reading a lot into those celebrations as well because I'm with you. Yeah, maybe with a two-most simple of the four down, I'm looking at us thinking with a definite cat. I'm definitely in the bottom one for the most important. He's just going to season without winning a trophy. For him, that's a lifetime. I know I've gone a lot longer, but the season without Pepa Manchester City winning a trophy is a long, long time for him in football. I just think there's so much other stuff going on between them and Arsenal that there's so much competition with them, obviously, with the Premier League and what's going to happen there. I think this is a massive victory for Manchester City for so many of us, I don't know, Pep then saying so, so many reasons. That's a massive psychological burst. I think the trophy is the biggest thing to him because, as I say, a whole season that can't have happened to Affan in Pep's career. Yeah, I think it is interesting, John, that we're sitting there. They didn't press high, you know, but they didn't drop off. They were just sort of saying to the defence, you have the ball. It's interesting, I just don't know how many teams I've seen do that against Arsenal, but I don't know if it's a blueprint for everybody, but it seemed so rudderless Arsenal. It was just sort of apathy, this sort of anodine. It was quite painful to watch actually how laborious they were at the back. It's not the first time this season we've seen Arsenal be, what's the word, constipated in attack, shall we say, to user. Interesting metaphor. The secret is out really, isn't it? The Arsenal don't necessarily flow like other teams do. They're strong points lie in other areas of the game. They actually have the players that could do that, and this has been the thing that Arsenal fans would say is that they have the ability to play very different types of football, but perhaps style me their ability to be creative. They just couldn't get it going. I often think it is wembley a factor in that, the occasion was that a factor in that. They have found it difficult, as Seb said against teams like Wolves and Brentford. It's like, Arsenal, I do think they will win the title, but it's not been easy for them. And so the issue for Pep was Trun or City is make it more difficult for them. They managed to do it. Just on Pep, can we mention his style? We went from Grunge in midweek, which didn't really happen for him, the plaid shirt. I thought that the trousers were sort of like Ian Curtis' chic, they sort of, I was at school trousers. There was a point where that flailing kicking celebration against the advertising board, which he got booked for, which I thought betrayed a bit of the old joy division, Ian Curtis dancing. I thought it was very impressive. Again, Seb says, Pep is just so fascinating. You need a Pep cam on certain games, don't you? When he's gone, we will miss this guy because he has dominated. Dominated almost to a fault at a certain point because it's all been about him at certain points. But inside Dominated Virginia, a mind that none of us can get into, but you're just watching this guy and thinking, how have you managed that? And I tell you, one person that thinks that today is Michaela Teter, someone who's been closest to that mind of a genius, probably in the game. And In the game that was Jonathan wrote a piece about Master vs. A Brensys, the Master showed it once again that, you know, I'm still the daddy around here. Yeah, part E and Cure is part to Murray Ketsbier, but the perfect mix, isn't it? I wish it mentioned Nick and I Riley said, you know, like John brought it up and I'd written exactly the same thing, you know, like to care about cups, get remembered like FA cups, about the Matthews fight. I can't imagine in 50 years it'll be the O Riley, the O O Riley final, but what a day for him, what a brilliant season he's had. You know, he has played at left back, he's played at 10, keeping phone out for city. He's such a talent and just I'm just on a pure brilliant footballing level. What a perfect day for this guy. What stood out to me was his celebrations for the goals and his interview at full time. The level head in us on somebody only turned 21 the day before was extraordinary in a way. I don't know what it says about maybe modern football, maybe the mechanical way of thinking, but what he achieved there, even in a league cup final, is still a huge thing for a player at a club that can bring in almost any player they want at times from across the world. And he's come through playing out of position essentially and excelled to the point where he is probably going to start for England and then Lewis Halls in this debate as well. And yet he was so assured in the interview, it's almost put to him, what an amazing achievement, what incredible final you scored the both goals and he's very much just, you know, yes, it used a great day and this is his special occasion, but he's not going overboard and it's interesting because that I guess is the temperament required to be at the top level of football. You can't get ahead of yourself because people will rip you down and you have to have that self-confidence without seeming like you are over-award by this situation and he got the balance totally right. And what I also liked about his performance was he knew and obviously matched to city knew there was that period where they had Arsenal contained Arsenal could not get out and he could get into the positions where he's got into more than one occasion in this season and scored goals and be impactful in the box in a way that maybe Arsenal would be hoping that Califuri could have been in that final. But it just shows the whole game state and how he was able to take advantage of it and it's fantastic. You know, as a massive England fan as well, these things excite you. So it's just great to see. He will miss the penalty arc card. I like it when that someone said, someone said, oh, you know, look, he's so young, you've got no fear. I was 21 there. I'd be shitting bricks. Yeah. Worth mentioning city were without Mark Gays, well, has been so good for them. So, you know, Cousin of Manacay, but sort of largely untroubled were they? We should down talk about the goalkeeper, shouldn't we? Jim says should Kepa retire from Carrow Out Cup finals. You have James Trafford. Didn't have much to do but made that brilliant triple save early on and that is pivotal. It changes the whole change the whole game that he makes those saves. And then you have Kepa who basically throws one in. Yeah, that's that. I know it's the modern way and managers play second string goalkeepers in Cup Towers, but in a final that like, you're so desperate to win that you're fan base is so desperate to win as well. Something that can an event that can have a knock on effect for the rest of your season. I would suggest that David Royer is probably more integral to the way Arsenal actually play going forwards as well than Donna Romerty's for Manchester City. But to change that and put in a goalkeeper, you know, that unfortunately for Kepa, he does have a have a ricking him. There's a massive drop off and I'm not saying there's not a drop off between Donna Romer and Trafford because obviously there is. But I think Royer is integral in different ways to Arsenal. I think it almost maybe gives Manchester City it if you get to pick Arsenal's top three players. Royer would probably be being there. He's that important to them. The games are often disordered by mistakes and you felt as the game went on and you know, Kepa obviously had the incident where he got the yellow card. He was dallying on the ball. It felt like in too long. It took 40 seconds at one point to pass the ball. It did feel like it might come down to him and at the end, Arsenal have lost that phone life because they've changed goalkeeper. I don't think he's got any business playing in a Cup 4. No, that's my personal opinion. I don't know much about man management. I'm not a football manager. So I'm sure managers all over the world would disagree with what I'm saying and this things to do with keeping the dressing room happier and whatnot. But if you're going to cut for another that's that important, you have to play your number one goalkeeper. Yeah. He's right. Isn't he John? I mean, it's just unless part of the contractual agreement, it won't be written down but is you will play in these games and obviously want you want your reserve keeper to play some football so they don't just come in having never played like Kingsied last week for Tottenham. Yes. It's mad. You're right. It seems mad. It feels to me like goalkeepers this season have become come to the fore in a way. I mean, you look at Chelsea with the Jorgonson and Robert Sanchez thing, Kapper obviously and obviously the situation at Tottenham when I've been playing a goalkeeper with a only problem for as long as they possibly can and it's not really worked out for him. Yeah, you think it might be a love it ball, but Kapper had really quite a good season last season. You know, it was he's not a bad goalkeeper at one point. It was the world's most expensive goalkeeper. But yeah, there's a rick in there and it's absolutely correct. The style of football that Arsenal like to play is actually very reliant on David Raya as Manchester City used to be when Edison was there. You know, he provides that outlet and a player like that and a goalkeeper in a final needs to pull off big saves. You know, you talk about finals being remembered for players. Often it is the goalkeeper, you know, you go about to day, bezen or whatever. You know, and it's that pulls off those important saves, you know, as Manchester United Fan, like Les Sealey coming in for Jim Layton. You know, you've got this idea where if a goalkeeper for upset Wembley, you're probably out of it as a team, haven't you? And one thing you would say is city as soon as they scored, went and scored straight away, didn't they? They gave us all no time to lick their wounds and come back into it. They were ruthless with it. And yeah, poor old capper. I mean, you know, I think, you know, obviously there was the one where we refused to leave the pitch. I think you'd let in every penalty in a penalty shootout. I mean, it's, you know, it missed the penalty as well. It's a penalty, of course, yeah. I mean, the thing is, perhaps Kepa should have gone, I'll tell you something, I think I should sit this one out, you know, yeah, I'll accept them. You know, I suppose the reason they do it is for some sort of a spree to call within the team, isn't it? You know, the role of it's of a number two goalkeeper is actually very important to the team. And you can't really have number one, the number two in a change goal is we've known that over the years. And this is proof positive of that. David Raya, I think, will play in Aesthor's next game. And if they get to the FA Cup final and prepare to bet, he might start that game as well. Yeah. We've managed to get 20 minutes in, said without saying the word bottle with regards to Aesthor. And, and you know, they are still hot favorites for the title. You know, they are in, they have a favorable draw in the Champions League and as much as you can have in the quarterfinals of that. They've got a nice draw in the FA Cup as well, I think. So, but in terms of the title race, this is for the neutral, this is the perfect result, right? Arsenal, I have two weeks, this international race, I just stew on that. And you know, they've got the game at the eti head now, which is fascinating to see how city player, how Arsenal player. And it is possible that they come second in everything. My opinion on this is, if Arsenal don't win a Cup competition, I think Cup competitions are often won by size. You need to be decisive at the front end of the pitch. And having watched Arsenal countless times this season, you'll rarely convince with them in an attacking sense. Their defensive organisation is second to none. They don't concede many goals as we've seen. They are happy to defend. The wide players are happy to track back and defend. But I find it, they're at their best in attacking sense when teams have slightly come onto them and they're able to play through them. And Ezair was a good signing for them in that respect. He's somebody who can create that link things up, release a pass or shoot from distance. And that's probably why they bought him. If they don't get over the line, I don't think it's going to be a mentality thing. I just think they're going to have those situations, which in a weird way, city have had in certain games where they just can't find that way through against a side at home. Because you look at the fixtures they have left. And that is going to decide it for them. It's not the eti head game. It's going to be, can they beat Bournemouth, can they beat Newcastle, can they beat Fulham, can they beat Burnley? And they're the ones that are going to decide it. In that scenario, I think defensively trust them, but do you trust them in attack? When it comes to the latter stages of the Champions League, are they going to come up against a Barcelona say in the semi-final? It's not to jump ahead, but we have to do that. Or a Bayern Munich in the final PSG in the final who have the talent at the front end to take advantage. Think of the Manchester United game at the Emirates. The only game they've lost at the Emirates this season was won by some scrimers really from Man United players and an error at the back, some errors at the back from Arsenal. That can happen in matches. It happened in the final. So the mentality thing is going to be thrown at them if they don't get over the line, but I just think it's going to be a summer where if they don't invest in a elite talent in the front line, then they are always going to find themselves in this sort of situation until they win things. And, uh, Tetta's pressure is going to come from up above, obviously, if he doesn't win things simply because of the investment. But I do think he is a lesson in just give a manager time to create something within a club and Arsenal supporters, something has been created over the last few years with Tetta to the point you just have to remember where they were when our Tetta came in. Absolutely. Right. It's worth mentioning the Cherokee kick-ups and Ben White saying, "No, thank you." Remind of me of, I think Ronaldo doing loads of step-overs for Man United. I mentioned Graham Stewart at Charlton. Was it? Or Everton? I can't remember. Just go, "No, sorry, mate." I was going to say much. He actually did it in the 2006 League Cup Final. And I think it was against Layton Baines or someone like that. And I remember I was at the game, I remember Ryan G. Riding over to him and saying, "Don't do that. That's disrespectful for a fellow professional." Giggs would know that if you do that eventually you're going to get a wall up. So yeah. I think Ben White was more than happy to dish that out. That was a really satisfying exchange, I think. I think if you're from a more city persuasion and you want to ask those lose, you're loving the fact that Cherokee's doing the kick-ups and you think it's great to see and it's fun. And if you're on the other side and you don't like it, well, Ben White gave him a whack. Got a yellow card and everything was fine. I think I saw Ben White say, "Have a word with him." As in, "Have a word with Cherokee." Not in a Gary Linnacle way, but just have a word with your player before he does that again. Producer Tyo who is an Arsenal fan, same one of the worst places to be as a fan. He's an on-wembley way after a defeat. The stop-go signs and the horses. You just can't get to the cheer. You want to be anywhere else. It's such a good observation. Worth saying it's another city trophy while these charges, the 150 charges are, you know, nothing. We don't know what's going to happen. It is worth putting that on record. The needn says, "Was cities win at Wembley the best results spurs have had in 2026?" That will lead us nicely to part two, which sadly begins at the Tottenham Pots first stadium. [Music] Why would it's part two of the Guardian football weekly? Luke says, "Has a team ever had a parade before losing three in a let home before?" Spurs Nill, Forest 3. Down the fans, you know, they gathered in thousands with flares, they had a cup-final atmosphere, they welcomed the team bus, and you sort of have to give Spurs fans credit. They didn't unbelieve considering what they've been served up all season. They were going to have a protest and they decided not to have it because this game was so important. It just gave me even more hope. And now those fans have got to do it again sometime because it didn't work. You know, this is an absolute disaster. You've got to give the Spurs coaching staff manager and players credit as well for completely dissipating any good failing within 45 minutes of a game kicking off as well. Because I saw all the statements coming from the fans in the wake and obviously things have been very, very fractured at Spurs. And I thought, "Fair play." Because sometimes with things are going wrong at a football club. Sometimes as fans you have to try and do something and I think the Spurs fans tried to do that and Spurs had obviously had a couple of decent performances as well. They got the one one at Handfeld which not many people would have seen coming. And then I watched them on Tuesday, Wednesday, whenever it was they played in the Champions they can and thought they played really, really well. And then suddenly they turn up on Sundae to play and kind of a couple of the things that were really good about what you did. The managers just completely decided to repair. Shavie Simmons was Tottenham's best player. How can he then not play on Sundae? He begs belief that you would take away these Spurs, that you would take away something that was one of the best things about your team against a high level side in Athlety and the Champions League. And then not do that same thing again, Van der Ven, left back. Spurs are just the all round, everything factored in. Spurs are just the strangest football club that's ever existed, Max. I mean, well Chelsea might want a word with you, but I don't disagree. And Dan is so right, said tactically, it's mad. He said, it was such a good, like, they actually could have got something. There were moments of that game where they were, you know, they had a great chance to tell how to chance Parade of Judge. You think they could have actually won that tie. They didn't. But like, take that approach and play a team that have won twice all year. I know that's infinitely more than Tottenham won this year, but it is like, you know, just do that. Yeah, it's funny because people are saying this about Amarim just before he departed. You know, think something would go well and then he would change it. And people say, why are you doing that? And that to me is a sign of a manager in trouble because to play a centre back out of position, to play a midfielder out of position, we'd spoke about the injuries, but some players were back for this one. That's what's interesting there. They've been getting players back. So then you're looking to think, well, what can they do from this situation? Now I think the draw against Liverpool was more about Liverpool. So the lot more about Liverpool than he did about Spurs. The Atlético tie was done. I think it's Atlético. If it been tighter, they might have turned up a bit better. Yeah, maybe. And I found yesterday and I am going to diverge onto Forest because I'm sorry, you're going to ask about them, but I think that also played, that was a really interesting marker because I at the start of the season didn't think Forest would go down. As the season has gone on and the managerial changes have happened, I've been worried for them. And I genuinely thought last weekend that they needed to probably get a win over full number. That's not easy. And you look to the fixture. I thought this is going to be tricky. This could be the thing for them. This could be the moment where they keep themselves up. They're still in the Europa League and Villa could still be the team that helps Spurs out again as they did this weekend. But just to go back to Spurs, it feels as if everybody's feeding in this circle. So supporters tried after the game in midweek to give a boost to give the feeling. The players give it everything at the start of the game. But I think we can supply so many teams as the game goes on, those doubts creep back in again. And you can see by the once Forest took the lead, it was done. The game felt done. Yeah, I suppose we're actually okay in that game. Yeah, suppose it was good and then it was such a soft gold concede. And that, and we obviously must send our condolences to Igor Tudor and it is more important football, you know, to find out he'd lost his father and have to rush back and we send our love to him. But, and so it seems really sort of awful to say, but he needs to get sacked. But, you know, in footballing terms, John, they've got two weeks now to talk to them and they surely they have to do whatever it is. I don't know what it is, you know, I can't say Harry Rednapp again, you know, because every time I mention it, Lars sends me a barrage of message going, he's 79. And he just, you know, the professional footballers are elite sports people to stop being an idiot, but even still. Yeah, I mean, it is difficult to talk about considering Igor Tudor's personal circumstance, which is just horrendous as in it, you know. And unfortunately, Tottenham may have to make a decision that goes against sentiment really here. So, again, we asked the question, where and who is making this decision because that is the issue that we've got at Tottenham is that the, since the departure of Daniel Levy, that there is a level of disorganisation at the club at complacency, corrects in, we just don't know who's making these decisions. I mean, people will come forward and say they are in the case of, you know, Han Langer and stuff like that, but we just don't know how it's happened. You know, the fact that Igor Tudor is, we think the appointment of someone in Fabio Paratici had actually left the club. I mean, that, that, that, that, that's just classic Tottenham, as Dan says, this, you know, club was running off, you know, almost like psychedelic patterns of behaviour. And it's, it is crazy. That performance and, and the confidence within that team, you would have felt after beating Athletico Madrid, there would be confidence, but it's so easily set, didn't it? And then, and he got Jesus' rule. And then, I mean, I think it's Andy Reid on the Sky commentary, it's talking about Morgan Gibbs' white's goal. And he's just saying, I don't know how he's been allowed that amount of space to score. And it's true. It's just how, I mean, he's just there and it is so easy for him. And it being Tottenham, of course, who is the player they wanted last summer, Morgan Gibbs' white? And it's, it's, it's, it's, that's a list for there, isn't it? Yeah, it just feeds into this total disaster that there is a really good story of the season. So we've written that, you know, at the end of every season, you know, the co-op reporters of, of clubs will do that this happened. The spurs journalists are going to have to do it a 10-parter because it's been whatever happens, if they stay up, it's been absolutely amazing. And we're all rubber-necking it, aren't we? I just, it's, I cannot not watch something. I'm not, I'm in it. I'm in it, John. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm in it. I'm there. I'm going, I'm going to get the fire brigade to cut me free. I mean, it is worth saying what a brilliant result that is for forest. I think in relegation, you know, now I'm looking at all their fixtures, you know, clearly they're not out of it for us. The run-ins are fascinating. That ball from Nicola Williams was brilliant. Of course, I've given so much confidence. But, you know, there's a long way to go. And West Ham are mercifully below Totland in the Premier League for how long? Well, at least two weeks or until West Ham next play because they went to Villa Park down and actually like this could have been 10. I mean, it was 2-0, but Villa Web, you tell me how much this was Villa I didn't really know how much this was West Ham, who we thought had kind of turned a bit of a corner where appalling. First off, I feel incredibly guilty for kind of everyone that isn't a spurs fan that Villa decided to sort themselves out against West Ham because if West Ham had managed to do a bit of spurs, dropped into the bottom three after that result yesterday, you know, it would have been absolutely box office, wouldn't it? And West Ham were bad, but in 2026, Villa, I've played lots of other teams that have been bad and not managed to get a result. I feel a villa play really, really well in a weekend where other results have been very, very favorable to them as well. The only team that are kind of gunning for Champions League that have picked up three points, that feels like a huge, huge moment in the season for us. Like a big turn in point. And kind of pregame recently when Emery's picked his team, there's always been something there that I've not liked and that I've wanted to unpack and an un-pick. He picked the team that I think most of the fans would have wanted at the weekend. He picked the players that have been informed, did a bit of the opposite of spurs in that the players that played well on Thursday, who maybe aren't regular as a lot of Jad and Sancho, he kept them in and just because it worked on Thursday, he went with it again. And I think Villa took a little bit of confidence from Thursday. I think there was the shoots of recovery against Lillian. They brought it into this game in the first 10, 15 minutes. I thought, right, we're on it here and McGinn makes such a huge difference, not just to the crowd, but I think to those around him as well that the players just seem like they've got a new lease of life. We're John McGinn in the team, he's the standard bearer for the football club. He's been there for so long and actually he's a fabulous footballer as well. And Villa could have been three, four up at a half time. West Ham probably, you would say that they've done something strange tactically and that Tadebo has gone down in the warm-up and they've obviously planned the whole way to play a back three. Tadebo gets injured and they've ended up going to four at the back and they looked like a team that hadn't worked on that formation in the wake. And it was 2-0, but it honestly was a 2-0 trowel in what West Ham were never in that game. Yeah, what can Scored Dan? He still looks rusty, doesn't he? Are you surprised? He's not made Thomas Tuckles 80 man. Scored. No, I don't think he can have any compliance in all honesty. He's had a poor season. He's had the odd good game here and there and yesterday was one of those games I thought he played really well. But overall, I just don't think he can say that he's had the consistency or the performance level this season to justify being selected. You could probably look at it and say, like, maybe it's a lot, has he done more than Salankie this season, arguably. But he just hasn't been there. Unfortunately for him, he set himself such high standards under Henry and Scored. So many goals, got so many assists. They haven't been there this season and the performances haven't been there either. In previous kind of bad runs he's had, he's always still chipped in with assists. There'd been nothing in some of these games, but it was good to see him play, yes. I think he deserved to play because he came on and played well on Thursday. Like I said about him, doing the things I've keeping the players in that did well on Thursday. But at the moment, I don't think he deserves to be in the England squad. Unless he suddenly hits under the five six goals towards the end of the season, I don't think he'll be in the World Cup squad. Thursday went to the Leal game and I looked at it. Chatting to a few people before the game, they were saying, "How tell me Abraham?" A lot of the fans wanted him to play and it was the right selection. But the difference when only Watkins played compared to Tommy Abraham in that game, like his movement, he is a really, and obviously the team ticks better with McGinn in the team, that's for sure. But Watkins is, I played really well there and I thought, I thought it's unfair that he's not in the squad considering there's probably a few players in that England squad that I would have doubts over Salonkin included. I knew the thing I wanted to say is Sancio, Emory is the master at reviving and turning over players that other people have given up on. And if he's getting a tune out of Sancio, then he really is a genius because, you know, so many, could you say that he's been at cities, been at United, he's been at Chelsea and they're all thought, "This guy is so talented. Let's get the best out of him, he haven't done it." And even to get the slivers of Sancio that we've seen, it feels like an achievement. I mean, he's so talented. Yeah, I think not the other night, there was one point where he just ran the ball out because, I don't know why he ran the ball. And then the next minute he's set up a goal. That's just, you know, an incredible player for many reasons. The thing that surprised me and the thing that Emory has got out of him, even though the productivity maybe hasn't been there, he doesn't half work hard. Right. I've not seen that at the previous clubs. He's been at defensively. He's been very, very astute. Sancio helping out. He's full back up. Yeah, I think he's got another level or two that he can go and, obviously, productivity's probably the next phase for him, but at the moment I'm on a free transfer. I'd quite like to say any, maybe he's going to be working under Emory. Dan, I don't know how you feel about this because I've followed Sancio since he was playing for England under 17s. And from a talent point of view, he is right up there. But I've always felt physically he doesn't have the physicality to get away from players. He can beat a man, but then he can't accelerate away. He hasn't got that, that, say, a power that maybe an elite winger would need to have to really make a difference at that end of the pitch. Yeah, I think that's fair. He's, but I think that's not as a misconception about Sancio, about what type of player he actually is. He works incredibly well in toilet spaces. I know Villa scored the goal the other night where he was kind of running onto the ball. It was a great pass from Emmy Martinez. But actually, the way Villa play with the number 10s, you want to be giving him then ball in the toilet spaces because he can wriggle his way out of it. He's passing quite intricate. He works well in those kind of small spaces. And I just think he's been a really good player. I think Villa revived Rashford's career on loan from Manchester United. And we say, like, John says, does seem to have this knack of kind of rescuing people. And Villa, Villa, I don't know whether it's a good thing for him or not. He Villa qualified for the Champions League. I don't know what give Sancio more chance maybe of standing Villa, but he started speaking about Emory and the club with a quite a lot of love recently. John McGinn's been really good with him apparently as well. It'd be interesting to say what happens to him in the summer and what Villa do, what Villa do with him, whether they've got a chance of getting him permanent. Worth mentioning Maverick Panos making a number of goal-line blocks. Luke, I think it was Luke going to actually say is Maverick Panos now more ball than head with reference to, you know, Wenthar and left one on him. And at West Ham's next game is Home to Wolves and it is on the Friday night. So they are the first game of the weekend. And you know, that feels absolutely enormous for West Ham. Because obviously they win that. They would no longer be in the relegation zone. Leeds, they're in trouble. They drew Neil no with Brentford, Rob could anyone possibly find anything interesting to say about Leeds, Brentford. Well, we just don't have a lot of time and we should do, I mean, Brentford are like they could get into the Champions League and we'll talk about them alongside Everton in part three. Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. Bicca says after this weekend's action, should you reintroduce the Everton Cup? And John, this is really interesting now because we sort of looked at the six teams going for the top five places. But then now is a bit of a jumble. We just talked about Villa. They're on the 54. Many know I will get to or on 55. And then there's a little drop down Liverpool on 49. Chelsea on 48. Brentford and Everton on 46. I guess you can't discount. I don't know, full of them on 44, Brighton and Sunland on 43 seems unlikely. But Everton beat in Chelsea 3.0. They could get into the Champions League and it's odd, John, because I haven't noticed them win any games this season. I don't know if they've done it by stealth. And we spend so much time talking about Beto and Barry, don't we, as these, you know, happy strikers and yeah, both of them, every time I'm on the pod, they sort of scored. So someone's doing a good job. And I think it might be David Moise. I think David Moise is one of those coaches that is mischaracterised as sort of, you know, last of the dinosaurs or whatever, but actually is a very progressive coach in his own way and has been, you know, you think back to him back in his days at Preston. He was, you know, the new, the guy who was having lots of ideas and obviously there's an old school values there. But he knows how to set up a defence, he knows his way around, McPhielders, he will give creative midfielders their head if they're willing to work for him. And he's also quite good at getting a tune out of strikers that aren't actually very good at the club. Can't really afford to buy him a top. You know, you think back to the days of Dennis Stracke-Wilersie and in managed to get a tune out of someone like that. I mean, he's a, okay, David Moise has had his failings in his career. But, John, you're going to have to remind me. I pride myself on knowing Brandon Bookwoolers on who Dennis Stracke-Wilersie. I don't think good enough stuff as well. And I don't remember him. You've lost me. He was an Argentinian that I think was signed in some element of desperation. We're talking about, well, in Moise's first time in charge. And he, I think he managed to score like one goal or something like that. Let's say, let's, I'm going to have to look at it. Here we are. I've got him. I've got him. Everton on loan 20 games one goal. I mean, he made pay for many clubs, I'd pursue more in South America because I don't recognise any of them. Yeah. But there we are. That's great, and I'll thank you for introducing me to Dennis Stradquilassi. Do count. I love that we don't have time. We don't have time to talk about Brentford, but we've got time to talk about Dennis Stradquilassi. David Moys has not been lucky with the Stradkazis had to work with him yet. He's still doing this fine job. As for his one thing, we should say about that, you know, the hill Dickinson is a young stadium. Yeah. But I think that was the first night we've heard it crackle as they wanted it to underlites. Yeah. Brilliant. David Moys, a guy that just keeps. coming back for more and keep showing us that he's actually a really, really good manager and he's at the right club. The club that he probably should never have left in the first place. Yeah. I mean, and the Beto Finnett, you commented on the game, said the Beto Finnett, she's the first one. Amazing. Amazing. Absolutely. Like, it's brilliant. And then the, the endigole, I mean, that is as in the top corner, you couldn't place it in the top corner if you walked up with a ball in your hands. Um, what did you make of, what did you make of them? What did you make of Chelsea as well? Well, on Everton, I think while I was covering the game, that was what kept crossing my mind. I done there, covered their previous game against Arsenal. They played so well in that game, they should have scored a couple of goals, even. But Arsenal obviously gave them enough resistance for them to not be able to get the result they needed. Chelsea gave them no resistance in this particular fixture. And Beto's finish reminded me of the Fernando Torres finish in the year-ose final in '08. I love finishes like that because the moment he left his foot, you think, you think maybe the spin of the ball might take it wide, but it never does. It always just nestles just exactly where you wanted it to go. And Jai's finish was you couldn't get it more into that top corner without it kissing the woodwork. It was, I said it was in the postage time. I don't think stamps get that far into the corner. I just thought that was chef's kiss, an amazing, amazing angle to see it where it placed in the end. And everything went right for Everton in the game. I thought they were fantastic. And we sort of moves on nicely to the Chelsea situation in that David Moises at a club where, as John mentioned, results can pass by and the vast majority of football fans who aren't, say, Everton supporters, has applied to Brentford, has applied to Fullham. They're not going to know if you've lost or won, it doesn't really affect the swings and roundabouts until they look at the lead table, oh my god, Everton, are down there or Everton are up here. If you manage Chelsea, you know every single result is going, people are going to go through it with a fine tooth comb. And that's the reality of it. You have to go through that. And if that happens in more than one game in a row, then obviously the spotlight comes down on you and everybody's going to be honing in on everything you say, everything you do to try and get it right. And so many managers at clubs that are investing and competing for trophies have to go through this. Eddie Howe is in that situation, but he's coming out with the inverted corners excuse of why he can't get to that next level. And that's certainly when you're watching Chelsea, you're thinking, are so many of these players cost so much money, but they were bought for money with the idea that they would hold that value maybe even increase it in times gone by. They're not finished pieces. They're not players that are going to get you over the line in games like this, where you are a way to a side who are tough to beat and you require experience players in your team. Chelsea have no experience players in their team at all. They've got players who've done well in recent years, but they just that leadership is not there, especially as Reese James is injured. And they felt rudderless on the pitch, little little moments here and there during the game where you could see players talents, but they look a lost side. And are you wonder even if whatever manager they bring in, I think the whole structure of the club needs to change of how the direction they're going in because the direction they're going in, they will not be competing for the major honors anytime soon. Eddie The direction Liverpool going is interesting, Dan, isn't it? Defeat at Brighton, we should talk about Danny Wellbeck because he's not made the two-core squad. It's perhaps unlucky when we're talking about Calvert Lewin making it and Oli Watkins not making it. And he's I think he's scored more than any other Englishman in the Premier League this season. But on Liverpool, they weren't great in this game. And I think I don't know. You just thought after that Galatastro game, you like this is clicked now and they're on it and they weren't. I think they've had that moment quite a lot of times this season Liverpool where they won a game and then they followed it up with an object performance and 10 Premier League defeats for Liverpool now. That is no one would have seen that coming at the start of the season. They were so astute with what they did last season like winning games and they never really looked in any trouble at all. This is in every time I've watched them by and large that they've looked in trouble and there's just so many basic issues there that you'd think slot would have fixed by and out to be in the end of March and the same kind of things are happening that were happening in September. He's not adjusted. The distances between the players in every area always look off in terms of the distance between the centre backs and the full backs, the distance between the defence and the midfield. I watched them and they just look like a mishmash of players. They've got a lack of intensity. They're quite passive which all the things Liverpool weren't under club. And then when they go behind in games, he makes subs that nearly always make them worse and make them even more unorganised. This has happened so many times that this season it felt like nobody really wants to take charge and take hold of the top four or the top five to get in the Champions League. Liverpool, I can't see them doing it if they continue making the same mistakes that they've made all season. I mean we talked about that England squad, John Liverpool, even if England won't or might but Liverpool miss Alexander Arnal, don't they? I mean maybe you're always better when you're not there, right? And maybe he wouldn't have changed this season but he just feels such an absence of that creativity. Conor Bradley was supposed to be the heir apparent but unfortunately has suffered injury. Frimpong from the very first game actually from the community shield did not. He was clearly a very different player to Dren. So they've lost that, the creativity and the players. And I think we talk about this almost every time. Dominic Zobbazlis has to drop back to Ryeback because so you best player playing Ryeback, well they had that before maybe with Dren but it's not working when Zobbazlis is going there or having to drop there because it's a waste of his excellence. It's interesting, a player that I know both you and I are a fan of at Florian Verts is now getting stickers and if not being effective enough, you know, you in that that territory of floating like a butterfly stinging like one is sort of the description of steam. He's just not, it's just not happening for him but again he needs the players around him and do they were unlucky that Ekateeke gets in an injury early but they just don't have the players now despite all that money and you know this shows you, you know, we've had a weekend of Eddie Hal, complaining about not being able to buy players but Liverpool and Manchester United in the past have shown that you can spend as much money as you like but you don't spend it on the right players then it doesn't work for you and are nice lot to me every time I hear him speak he's defending his own record. That's not a good sign is it? Florian's in five for Brighton, I mean in Herzl it was under real pressure and all run said and two for Danny Welbeck. I mean we've had Danny Welbeck's good that conversation so many times. Are you surprised that he hasn't, you know, because Biala County is a really good clubman as well, you know, it's good around the place but he's also really talented, are you surprised he's not made that squad? I am because of obviously the squad contains a thousand players so I would have thought he would have got into that mix. He ticks all the boxes for that striker that player that you want in the squad knowing that Harry Kane is going to start every game if he's fit. Somebody who's going to just be Danny Welbeck's the sort of person who just gets on with everybody. Every player that's with him he's one of the most popular players, older players love him, the younger players love him and he's just had one of those careers where in the way when he came through people thought he's not the sort of player that would still be at his best at this age but he's actually shown that if you look after your body having gone through all the injuries he's been through that you can still get that time at the back end of your career. In a way, if you are available for every game for a season after season, you can get burnt out I think but if you have injuries here and there you can maybe your body's not been through enough of that game time to think actually I could still go on now to play into my mid 30s and he's showing that I am surprised he's not in the squad. He could be a timing thing because he didn't score the goals just before the squad was announced that might have helped. They certainly seems like considering the other strikers brought into the squad I think he could have certainly been considered. Well round off the top five chat with Man United in just a second but I wanted to talk about Newcastle's underland down because it was more recent and I can't really remember the mentioned game it was so long ago but and you know Newcastle fans sometimes feel we have an agenda against the club and look no Wilson no Barry on this pod so that is something at least but it is impossible to understand how big a result this is for Sunderland and doing the double over Newcastle in their first season back in the Premier League and they have such a good record against them but that is absolutely enormous. Yeah and it looks Sunderland have felt like they've tired off like they've almost done that thing where they've got to safety and then kind of took the kind of foot off the gas a little bit but they could have gone under yesterday against Newcastle. Barry and I were not completely free flowing at the moment going one-neil down. I might have missed it for the goal which one of the most bizarre goal kickfall nations I've ever seen in my life the way you ran onto the board. I don't think we'll ever see that again I'm not sure that's going to catch on at all. Sunderland could have gone under but they didn't somehow after that first half it was Newcastle. the end ended up going under and I've obviously had that basket ball match with Barcelona in the way. I'm sure there is an element of fatigue there, but they can't be losing that game. And then Eddie Howard comments after the game, "I've got some sympathy with them around PSR which probably won't be a popular opinion with listeners." But no Castle season has just been bizarre, the whole way. Then there's lots of teams that have had bizarre seasons as we've spoken about earlier. But I'm not sure when you've had the kind of outline that they've had in the summer and you've probably made your team worse, whether you can come up and peddle the PSR excuse. I think Newcastle have coasted by this season on the fact that they're struggling in the league, but they were still in the Champions League. They're not in the Champions League anymore and their league position is pitiful. Yeah, I mean, it was a basketball game, but very much the fourth quarter was just a sort of Harlem Globe Trotters basketball game where we're saying, Brian Robbie, Robbie, said, "Very similar physique to me with my first observation, but what a brilliant, one of many, but like a brilliant signing for Sunderland." Yeah, people forget how old he is. He's only 24 and that Sunderland side had a lot of youth in it. You know, Taube's 20, Chris Rigg starting in that game, local boy who just I thought put in a fantastic performance, particularly in the second half, D'ara Sadeeke. These are all very, very young players, even the goalkeeper Elborks only 22, but they had the energy. They had the legs on Newcastle by the back end of the game. And I figure like Robbie is certainly somebody, even when he was, you know, he's been in Netherlands squads. They clearly see somebody who can be that different focal point for somebody upfront. He is somebody who we were talking about better earlier. Robbie can pin defenders. He can make it really difficult for them. But he's also shown when he gets a chance, he can take it. He's a penalty box presence. And he scored, he scored some big goals this season, but this was the biggest. You could see him at the end. He was praying. He was hoping, can we just win this? Because he knows down the line in years to come, there was a cutaway of Ryan Taylor in the crowd. And this is a guy who scored a free kick in this fixture and it's still talked about by supporters. So from the Sunderland point of view, they'll still be talking about this because they're on an I think 11 game unbeaten run against Newcastle now, which is just astonishingly what do you think about it? Their season, when we look through the league and we see so many people saying, this is a poor league season. The quality is not great. It's a Premier League dropped. But the Premier League has been so competitive. It feels very condensed. It feels like any team can get a result from any team. And for Sunderland to be in that scenario and find themselves where they are, they will be one of those sets of fans that in the happiness chart, is there an argument to say they're top? I'm possibly. Yeah. Talby, the youngest player at the school for Sunderland against Newcastle in the Premier League, the pressure is on Eddie Howard, John, like the fans, Bood, and you know, there's a lot of online pressure, but they're in the stadium. They've been behind Eddie Howard. I mean, it would still be a massive risk to replace him, I think. Yeah, I think so. And I think that he's earned the rights to give it another go, I mean, you would say. There is this idea that Eddie Howard lacked support from those above him in the club last summer when all the Alexander Isaac saga was going on. I think the signing of Volta Marga as much as we may enjoy him is now seen as a mistake. A mistake, actually, that of course, Eddie Howard and his nephew, it wasn't it, there was involved in a recruitment team. You'll have to take some of the blame for it always sounds like his nephew would be about six. You know, he's just in his 30s. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. He's nephew is just he's tall. He's really tall. That's what I've been hearing from someone that was at the Newcastle game Chelsea, the wing just checked to some of the local lads about that. And listen, Eddie Howard has a good relationship with the local press that I think that counts quite a lot. The thing is how's built something that it's just that he perhaps hasn't had and he can blame me. I so if he likes, but he hasn't had the supports taken to the next stage. I think that's fair to say, should it go start going wrong next season? Then yes, he could have a problem. You know, when Anthony Gordon scores that goal, you think in right, okay, this is it. And then the second half a bit, a bit like the spurs thing, a bit like Arsenal, they just don't show for the second half and some of the deserved that. And you know, Mr. Brobby is, yeah, I've really enjoyed watching him. I saw him play for I act a few years ago. And he was absolutely hopeless. And now now watching his thing. I think in wow, he's great. So there you go. What do I know? It's important to say that the Dome was overshadowed by the reports that Luturug Gautrado had been the subject of races to be some home fans. The ref Anthony Taylor stopped the match in line with the leagues on field anti discrimination protocol was early in the second half. Premier League match centre said the instance and Joseph Park will now be fully investigated. We offer our full support to the player on both clubs. Racism has no place in our game. And you, Castle said we're aware of a report of racism made by a visiting player against someone in the crowd during our Premier League match against Sunland. Our stance is clear. We do not tolerate discrimination of any form will work with the authorities to fully investigate and we'll ensure any individuals are identified and held accountable. Former two man United to quickly John, you were there. Did you have a nice time? Really fun game is, wasn't it? It was a really exciting game. Yeah, a little difficult for those of us that have to work to a 10 o'clock deadline. Thanks to 10 minutes of that did time. And obviously a lot of VAR chat. Now my view is that the referees probably got this right. I didn't think there was enough in the Ahmad foul. I mean, you can see why and you could see why VAR would not interfere with it. United got themselves in a good position and let it slip because it was born with the so difficult to play against when they're on it. Main new versus Alex Scott, another one when we go back to the 80 man England squad. Why Alex Scott wasn't in the screen. He's been done with best player this season. I really like him. It's brilliant to watch. He glides like, you know, that, you know, the socks roll down or whatever gives it as sort of, you know, slightly 70s 80s feel, which I think that's as we all buzz off. But him against Mainu Scott had the better game. I had to say he is an excellent player and who's seen quite a lot of them as well. Wow. Thomas Tuchel was a wembley yesterday and I think had to sit with a loaded journalist fielding questions from him about that. It turns out he wasn't that bad a result from Ununited, but it did show that the weakness within the squad that they've got. Casamera got booked quite early and then couldn't put himself about as he quite liked and then they lost control of the field. One more thing actually should say, "Kunya, this guy is being read off United recently. I had my doubts about that signing, but he's looked really, really good." Thank you, John. Full and beat Bernie 3-1 in, I would suggest is the first really pointless game of the season. Bernie might have had a chance to survive on my apologies. A full and more bound to be in that game, weren't they? I mean, you could have looked at the start of the season going on. Maybe this will be the first one, but you know, Bernie, I guess if they do something, if they do stage a great comeback and I have produced them to point us at this point, I will forever apologise. I'll just give one point on the full and game. Obviously, Rahul Himin is far the past away, really emotional at the full-time whistle, but he's penalty record is exceptional. The best there's been in the Premier League 14-14. 14-14? Yeah. 14. Question marks about his run-up. I think he's just about okay, isn't it? I just don't know what the rules are on the run-up. That's exactly it, nobody knows. I don't think it's defined enough in that particular set because I think if you stop just before you strike the ball, then that's a problem, but he stopped several times in the run-up. I mean, we've seen players do it in the past, Pogburn, but he didn't stop just before striking. Maybe that's how he got away with it. We sent him our love and our condolences. Finally, Ross got in touch to say, "Dear Max Barry," and the other illustrious members of Football Weekly are right listening to this latest episode, as I sit here in two pairs of box of shorts, excess padding and feeling rather sorry for myself. More importantly, it's come to my attention by my good friend Phil, that I completely forgot to listen to the podcast as I had my versec to me this morning. As a long-standing listener of the part, I feel I've let you down, I've let Barry down, indeed, I've let the recently singed tubes in my balls down, a dull ache of regards, Ross. Thank you, Ross. We accept your apologies, go and get it done again and listen to us. I'm about to have one and that's not filled me with confidence. Oh yeah, okay. Well, good luck. Can you do the part while having it done? We were suggesting that I film myself having it done, and it's the half-time show of a live show. I'm really dedicated to this podcast, but that does feel like taking it to quite the extreme. Do you have to pay for it on the NHS or? NHS NHS. I thought you were suggesting except for the first time ever I used, do you know who I am to try and get myself free of a sec to motion? I'm not. I'm not after a hammer, I just want to have a sec to me. Anyway, that'll do for today. Thank you everybody. Thank you, John. Thank you. Cheers, Sam. Thank you. Thanks, Dan. Thank you, Max. For a week, Cleans produced by Tire Papula and Jesse Howard, our executive producer is Daniel Stevens, EFL pod on Tuesday, and then International Pod on Friday, after all, those playoff games featuring the home nations. This is The Guardian.