Black Women Navigating Corporate America - Part 2

[MUSIC] Welcome to Miss Packlight in Color, a podcast dedicated to amplifying the voices of black women. We believe that every black woman has a soul story and that sharing these are a catalyst for healing for themselves and the broader community. I'm Candy and I'll be your host, Packlight. [MUSIC] So, coast switching, right? I didn't know what it was termed until some years ago, but then I was like, oh, I had been doing that until I finally was like, I'm tired of doing that. And I got to the point where I was tired of doing that before I knew it was coast switching. But the thing of having to assimilate and try to fit in what people define as a workplace culture or professionalism. So, it seems based on the conversation, all of us got to a point where we were like to hell with all of that. But early on in your career, did you do coast switching and why? [MUSIC] Yes. Well, yes. And I think I still do. [MUSIC] Yeah, or at least I've observed the way I navigate and converse when I'm at home or with friends or not at work. And I know that I edit almost automatically at work. It's like a whole different operating system loads when I walk into the office. And I think it's just, I don't, I don't speak all of the language. If that makes sense, there are certain shows I don't watch and activities I don't do. So I can't relate in those capacities. And I'm not going to the mile to figure those things out. But the thing that I can do is try to speak the same way, try to make sure that I at least get a couple of the references. So I have something to talk about. But I have it, I would like to get to the point where we are, where it's loud, I don't even care. I just, I don't know, it doesn't feel comfortable yet for me. That makes sense. Erica, you were about to say something. Oh, I was just saying yes. But I think for the longest time I didn't realize I was doing it because I thought code switching was relegated to language. Growing up, I was the one that I had the proper diction and an unceasing. Did they refer to you as you talk white that you get that? Yeah. And you know, I would get frustrated, but didn't know how to respond that that was an insult. Until of course, my, you know, as an adult, like, are you saying that people can't speak well? What is that? You're so well spoken. Oh my gosh. Or when they get, when certain people get comfortable with you after they've met you in person, but they met you on the phone first thing they're saying, you know, I actually thought you were white. Yes. You felt that that you you were comfortable telling me that that's the thing you needed to, that's the thing you needed to tell me. You needed me to know that. Okay. Great. You know, I mean, what, what, what level of stereotype would you like, Massa or y'all? Ebonics and what, what, what, where would you like me to sit? We all have our professional voice. So it's just, it's, it's, and I still do it. Like, you know, the voice switches up a little bit. Yeah. My husband says I have one, but I think he's, he's identified it is when I get very serious when I'm about business. So if I'm about business with black people, I'm the same way. You know, like, it's, it's, it's a business voice, not necessarily my corporate or white people, you know, voice. But yeah, I mean, but I realized that I was, there were things where I was not comfortable and I was, I was engaging in conversations or, you know, would, as Chelsea said, like, okay, I align with you in, in this space. I understand this, this song or, you know, this, this, this, this TV show, I know about this so I can engage in this conversation, but that didn't talk about the ones that I love. And so, you know, now I do. Oh, you, you watched friends? Oh, I watched, I watched friends too. But I also watched Girlfriends. Have you heard about Girlfriends? Girlfriends was amazing. I wish they had more shows like that or, you know, like, I just, I incorporate more of myself. I'm, I'm not afraid to show up. If I don't know that song, I'm like, I don't listen to country music like that. I'm sorry. Yeah. I don't listen to country. I don't like it. You don't like it. But then I clarify that I also'm like, I'm not, I'm not a rap head either. I don't, that's not me either. So let's, let's make sure that you're not looking at me and saying, you know, you just, you know, you, you just over here listening to the, I can't even name any of you right now. You know, but little baby, I had to just hair you up and try like, is that see? Look now, I don't take my call. There's a little baby, a little baby. There is. I don't understand. And I, for the longest, I didn't know who the difference was. There's definitely very different. They are. And they sound different. I know now, but it took me like three years. Oh, now I gotta go. They've got around for three years. I believe so. Yeah. Yeah. So little baby and the baby. The baby. Yeah. Don't forget we say babies. He, he enunciates a lot. That's a raw baby. So we got hair. All of them. I feel just like you in those spaces. And I, I, I'd never really thought about having to cone switch. But I did know that when I, just because this is how I talk and I will always talk and people have said to me, but you don't sound like other black people. It took a while for me to be able to say, you know, that's not a compliment, right? Oh, wait, I'm so sorry that you don't think I just wanted to say that you're so articulate that I was like compared to you. You know, and then you start having these deeper questions and it becomes uncomfortable. But at the same time, it's like, I would, I remember being in office with candy. And this is just what it was early on our career. Remember when they stuck me in that little tiny corner off in the back, a window. Yeah, it was a good present in self of solitary confinement. She was in a bed. I loved the fact that I had a door and I could shut it. And so, I'm like the guy with a mask. Yeah, I would go into that, that, that closet and shut the door. And what happened inside of that little closet was not what was happening outside. In front of everybody else, at all. And we were able to drop all the pretenses, not be of tight with what we're saying and just say, oh, girl, I need to go get my hair done. What are we going to do tonight? We're about to go to pop and lock it at the club. Whatever we were doing. I don't know why I said pop and lock it because we never did that. That's why we, well, something like that in our hands, we just pop a lock and you were on. But it was a very different conversation. And even to this day, I will say, do I walk into settings and think about how I'm going to present myself? Yes, is that a form of code switching? Yes. Well, that stopped. Maybe? Probably not. No. And I think that the bigger question is, as we become a more diverse workforce, and I think about even the company that I'm in now, that my, where I'm at, in the way that we have hired in our city, it looks a lot different than a lot of other offices. And I remember somebody saying to me, did you guys hire all the black media people in Atlanta? And I just remember saying, no, we hired the most qualified people that we could find. It just so happens that we have a diverse workforce. And does that allow me to walk into a place at this current time and be a little bit more comfortable with the things that I said when to candy when I would shut that closet door? Yes, it does. I would be lying if I said it didn't. And so I do think that like if I was in a position where that, we didn't have that diversity of thought or diversity of even digesting difference, I can't say that I would be as comfortable in showing up consistently, it comes in as much as I'm a reporter as my full authentic self. I do understand and I shouldn't, in this should not even be a statement, that I am walking into area of privilege when I walk through those doors. And I say in every area of privilege for myself because because that's the privilege that I seek. And I want that diversity, but most people don't have that same privilege that I do. - Yeah. - You talk about hiring mode? - Yes, so this is, yes, that's gonna be the next one. So to your point, Erica and Sha, you both kind of hit on it. And this was kind of a debate ahead last year. Do you go to the places that you know you can be your authentic self, like work at, meaning you select those places? 'Cause now I like, now that, you know, we have all this career experience, I feel like I can pick and choose where I work, right? I don't have to just work somewhere. Or do you work at a place where you can be in a position, a leadership, and then fight for the change that you wanna create? - That one. - That one, that's what you would do, Erica. I mean, I'm not, I choose not to work at more corporate structures, Home Depot, Coke, places like that, because I don't want that overall type of environment. So I choose to work at SaaS companies, startup, scale-ups, that type of space. But I know that that diversity, it just doesn't, it doesn't exist. I have to build it around me. So, it doesn't, yeah. So what I'm looking for is not the diversity or the safe space or to expect to see that amount of inclusivity embedded already. But I am looking for a culture difference, a different, yeah, more tech startup type cultures. It's, yeah, it's the culture. - A place more open to where you can then be able to do that, 'cause I feel like to your point, there's so much structure, company structure and some of those companies you name is harder to make that type of impact. - Well, they're afraid to even have the conversation, either way, right? Like they're just, I think companies in general are afraid to have the, the D E and I conversation, because they don't wanna upstate space. If they say, they, if they appear as an ally, and they don't want to align with their base, that might not be allies, because then they're gonna, alienate them. - Present themselves is not, you know, a inclusive and diverse company and cancel culture. If you wanna call it that, right? So, let's talk about recruitment. With recruitment, a lot of, you know, companies this year, you know, they made company missions of how they will be trying to recruit more people of color talent and there's been companies who's kind of trailblazed that. There's been companies like Wells Fargo that, I believe, those Wells Fargo, they said they couldn't find any diverse, qualified diverse candidates. What has been, especially with you guys, you know, being in leadership positions and therefore, hurry, what have you seen, what have you challenged, what have you been up against, and even in your personal experience with recruitment of diverse candidates and talent and even yourself. In your own career, shall you kick that off? - You know, this is something that's here and geared in my heart right now. It's specifically something that I'm working on and paying particular attention to. And I'll start with, for the people that are already in positions that are able to hire, like an Erica Chelsea, myself, can do as well. Where we're at is at this really interesting intersection of being extremely sought after by so many companies because we have the knowledge and we have the experience and oh, by the way, now everybody's noticing that the talent is there as well because they have made these commitments and they want to stack their records with talented people who already know how to do what they've been to do. And so what's happened is there's this swirl now of let me get the best talent, aka steel talent from other places and we have a lot of black employees, black women in particular who are being sought after for every single job, right? Which is a good problem to have and have options you have opportunity that has come as a result of what's been happening in the past year and all of these commitments that have been made by various different companies. However, where I think that we have a stock gap is in the fact that we're stealing talent from other places rather than cultivating talent and giving talent a chance. So what we have is a pipeline issue. What we have is an opportunity issue that has been presented as a result of the commitments that have been made. And in order for us to reach back and pull people up, there has to be an opportunity or pull people to pull up from because they've been given a chance. And the pipelines that companies are thinking of or that they're recruiting into or from are not from the places that we necessarily need to focus on diverse candidates. And it's not only focusing on diverse candidates, it's like, okay, once you get a diverse candidate in how do you retain them? How do you show them there's a path? How do you show them that there is somebody that looks like them, that is also doing them? What does that inclusive environment look like? How do you train your hiring staff how to build an inclusive environment? It goes back to where we're talking about earlier. Chelsea, you said it. I may not listen to the same music. I may not go golf on the weekends. I may, I don't know, play basketball. I don't know. There's different things that happen. How do you build an inclusive environment? Because retention is key. And so if we don't focus on like we're talking about the recruitment aspect, be it full funnel? I'm talking down to the internship aspect. We're just gonna continue to have this swirl of a small amount of black people, black women in particular that are bouncing from place to place without the opportunity to rise a significant or bring up a significant amount of talent that we all know is out there. - Yeah, you hit the nail on the head, especially when it comes to retention, right? So a lot of these focuses have been on recruitment, which is great, but I've seen the recruitment be mostly like college level, which is awesome, but needs to be expanded a bit, but that retention piece. So one of the things that I saw is that black women, you know, this is a personal experience, but you know, nice to have the stats to support I'm a data person, but black women are less likely to be advocated by their managers, right? So I think that's why I think black women are more likely to be advocated by their managers, because they're not going to be able to do that. So I think black women are more likely to be to be able to do that. But I think black women are more likely to be able to do that. So I think black women are more likely to be able to be able to do that. So I think black women are more likely to be able to do that. So I think black women are more likely to do that. outside of us. It was just, it was like I had a place where I could come and I felt like, you know, somebody understood me, I was seen, I, you did a really great job across the whole team, we're really actually like cultivating us, understanding our strengths, seeing how we fit together as a puzzle. And for me, that was the first time that I really felt like somebody actually took an eye and said, "Hey, what's going on with you? What's your plan? What's your this?" And I haven't gotten that from another manager. And when I think about it, actually, I think you're actually the only manager that I had that was a, a, a black person in general, but also a black woman. Wow, wow, wow, that's crazy. That's the, women, women in leadership. When we lean into that, we lead differently. We lead so differently. When I was first getting into like really leading teams, I had, I had somebody reach out to another company that I worked for and the feedback from senior leadership was, "Well, she's too friendly with, she's a little too friendly with her direct reports." And, you know, these are these like moments in my career where like, there's nothing wrong with that. That is a good thing. And it is, and it has continued to serve me well in my career to the point that I tell people, I develop relationships with my team members. I make sure that I see them as a person because that is what they are. They, they are a human being that does a job on your team, but they are first and foremost a human being. And women, we lean into that, that nurturing nature that we have, it's important. And it's a part of the retention model. But mostly men are in leadership. So they're not looking at us as women. They're not looking at the people on the team the same way. But men advocate for themselves more than women, statistically. I don't know the actual number. Sorry, Candy. That's okay. Men advocate to be true. Right. Men, there's plenty of stats on that. Men advocate for themselves. They too, they're on horns more than women. And, you know, we've talked about how language and how we excuse ourselves and conversations and apologize profusely all those things. And so I think that has a lot to do with it. Like the men are talking to other men. So they're now speaking the same language regardless, which helps them to be seen more versus where a woman is going to nurture and and and and is going to uplift and grow and groom somebody into into roles. I think men aren't doing that. But then when you have other men in the company, they're, you know, you've got an IC and a leader. They're speaking the same language and they're like, oh, yeah, I get you. You get me. We get each other. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. I see it. Let's go. And it's at the same with women. Yeah, I agree. I'm 100%. It's that I'm going to do my job and people are going to notice that I'm doing it. So I don't have to to my own horn. And, you know, I've fallen great at that. I've preached to people that I've mentored. You need to talk about all of the things that you're doing because nobody's going to be your microphone except for you. You have to talk about it. I will say I have to replicate out of my own book. And I've had to say, Shelley, this is what you need to do. But I also think that there is a big difference between mentorship and sponsorship. And one of the things that I think we as women see happening to us more often than not is that we're like, okay, when this company I'm working, I have a mentor. This is great. This is, you know, they're teaching me all of the things, the rules of the road, but what we fail to realize and that mentor generally feels to realize that when you're in the room and that person that you mentoring is not in the room, it is your job to sponsor that. It is your job to say when somebody says I have a position open, this is the person that you need to put in that position and this is why X, Y and Z. And Erica, you said it, men are doing that to each other. They're saying, Oh, I know so and so, he blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And not to say it's not happening to women, but it's not happening at the same rate that it happens to men. And we need to fix that. Oh, well, I mentor this one, but I also mean to understand what it means to sponsor that person when they're not in the room so that the opportunity is given. And that's a gap, a big gap, not only just for women as a whole, but particularly for black women. And it goes back a little bit to that affinity bias. You have to understand what that bias is and what it actually means to be a sponsor. We have a sponsor. But we have to, we have, we just, we have to fight harder. I mean, I literally had to point out at an organization that I was at that that that two white men had been promoted, who joined the organization after me in lower positions had now been promoted twice. And we're about will have been promoted once and we're about to be promoted again into the same level as I was and I hadn't received a promotion. But yet, I could look across all of my performance reviews, your stellar like every single one you you are operating at an executive level, but I had to fight. And it's higher year I had to fight for a promotion where everybody else just kind of here. Really, here's the red carpet, only black woman and leadership. You know, it just, you know, it's interesting when you're fighting because I've been there too. When you're fighting or when they're telling you why, that it's a no. Look at all the spaces. You can see the faces, but the faces. Wait, excuse me? Because I've seen the advancement of other people and you're telling me these are the noves, even though I have all of these. I check all the boxes. Make sure the person mentor the people we've asked you to mentor the people that we're continuing to promote the people the men that we're now promoting into the same level as you we've asked you to be a mentor to. Excuse me, what? Uh-huh. What, come again? I could make you guys for fighting. I just leave. Like, and that's the right answer is not. I just leave. I'm like, so you don't see all this wonderful talent and all the things that I've did for you. I am not going to fight this battle for you. Bye. And so it's not a good thing. I'm saying that's what I've done. And so I do need to see. I'm dry. I'd be like, bye. Like, what? I don't know why you're doing this. I don't want to be here. I don't want to be somewhere. Someone doesn't appreciate me and see my talent. I don't want to be somewhere where I have to fight for somebody to see my value. But I see the other side, the flip side that you guys are talking about. Because at some point you do have to fight, right? You do have to fight. So then you can one, get what you deserve. But also you, for you to be in position to help someone else net. And so that's important. I just unfortunately, I was just like, I'm over it. I'm out. You know, I give it some time. You know, it's just like relationships. So I'm like, I'm not at that. I just try to at all. And you recognize your value. You're like, no, it's just me. Like, I think some of me staying is me grappling with, well, is there validity to what you're saying? Is there, you know, and me going back and forth is trying to validate, but push against. It's like, well, okay, you're saying, I don't have this, but wait, I do see. Right. So, but you're like, do you not see all this gloriousness here? Yeah. She's like, she was a crown with a rat. That's like, like, to let you know. To the left. Yeah. Like, maybe. To say, um, so let me say about, go ahead, Chelsea. Now, I was gonna say, um, on sponsorship, I will say it is absolutely huge. Because I will say that I don't even think people noticed that I existed until there were two different people and mostly one, but then they were both clients and they were both women of color. And they just kept saying my name took a life into me. It was, oh, well, how is Chelsea? And they kept asking about me to the point where then management started actually looking at me and paying attention to what I was doing and things like that. And it was just such a huge thing. And I mean, especially from a client is like, oh, my gosh. And I want to say it made all the difference in the trajectory of my career and where I ended up going. Um, I think to your point, it's not even just necessarily within your company. If you have interactions, when you brush against another company for whatever it is, if you just have to be working with a law firm, you got an auditor. If there's an opportunity to support somebody, you know, especially one of color, people of color, absolutely say something. If they did amazing work, vocalize that, send that, you know, because those are the things that can make a huge difference in that person's career, even though they were fully capable and stellar and amazing before you came across them. Amen. So speaking of some things that can be used against you in your advancement, let's talk about some stereotypes, specifically the angry black woman one. So one of the most challenging stereotypes that we have to combat with, One of the things that I also read and I'm quoting this from the State of Black Women in Corporate America says, "Black women are no likely to express anger than any other group of Americans, but despite this reality, they are often on the receiving end of racist comments that they are angry." Black women who have been perceived angry tend to receive lower performance evaluations and lower recommended raises. Can you share any experience that you have experienced yourself or seen where this stereotype of angry black women has come into play in the workplace? Eric, go ahead, you shaking your head. Yes. Shaking our head? What are we all shaking? Your head shake with a little bit more fear. Yes. I did an external three and I'm going to always tell this story. I did an external 360-feedback review not company based. It was with an executive leadership program that I was in and I said that out one of the feedback, one of the pieces of feedback came back and even the coach who was walking me through the feedback. She said, "I need you to brace yourself for this particular feedback. I'm offended by it, but I want you to hear it and see it and we can talk through it." It said and I quote, "Araka is an excellent leader but she should be mindful and what did it say? Mindful of the room and modulate her tone accordingly because some people may think that certain genders should be more doth silent quiet." I'm just offended with the modulate words. She tried to use the triple word score in and sold you at the same time. Oh no, it was a man and I know exactly who it was. Now, I'm not supposed to know and technically, I don't know, but the phrasing and the language overall and the sentiment aligned with somebody in the organization that had previously stated he had some concerns with my communication style. At one point, pointing to a saying that my request for information, which simply said, "Hey, can everybody give their approval or their sign off on this because we need to move forward?" Pointed to that slack message as being aggressive. To the point that we had to have mediation with our boss. So I know that I'm fairly confident. I would be very surprised if it wasn't him, but just yeah, and also because other women in the organization, I had had encounters, not encounters. I had coached at least three women in the organization because they had had encounters with him and being over talked and dismissed. But he was that he presents this very personable caring for the people, all people. So yeah, I've had many, that's just the latest, that's probably, yeah, this plenty of them in my career. So, should we all have? Here's my thing is, I don't know, and it's almost like kind of the idea, or not the idea, it's perfectly right. But when you talk about women and how they dress in a salt, and oh, well, she shouldn't have worn that. It's like, no, we need to teach the men to interact differently. I think in this scenario, as well, it applies where it's, you know, your coaching people have a navigate around this person. Why is that person still here? These are the kinds of views that they hold. And these are the kinds of things that they're saying. To multiple people, I mean, if they were saying, oh, you have a nice butt, you wouldn't let this person go because they would be a liability. It's not any different. It's just, it's just so frustrating to see those sorts of personalities and people continue to progress in their career because that's validating how they navigate. Each time you promote them, you keep them around, you give them a raise, it's validating the way they navigate that is making other people around them a lot more uncomfortable. And it's hurting your attention. Yeah, it's absolutely, it's one of those names and this has happened in my career where you have to, at a certain point, figure out what it means to allow that to continue to happen or to stop it. And how do you stop that person from continuing to undermine you, offend you, and make it as though that you have to fit into their world and how they have continued to treat people, which isn't in an appropriate way. And, you know, the hard decision, I think for us, particularly as a lot of people, is one, do I feel comfortable doing that, too, is my job in the Injectivity, if I do challenge that, right? Because I think that we think about that, and all of us would have to, and I think I have to think about that. And then three, what do I do if it doesn't go the way that I think that it should go? What kind of company doesn't support that? What type of environment am I now in, right? And those questions, to me, are so hard to have to think about on top of the issue that you're already dealing with, which is somebody that should not be addressing you or be in your space in the way that they are behaving. And it's hard. It's really hard. And I will tell you that one of the hardest things that I've ever had to do in my career was figure out whether or not I would see that, whether or not it, you know, I felt okay doing it, and I would have to weigh the consequences, like I said. And I'm glad now sitting here that at that point in my career I did, because it took me down a long road of like Erica, mediation, and all of these things that were extremely uncomfortable. When I think about it now, I should not have been uncomfortable. I was uncomfortable because I was scared that I would lose my job. That's why I wasn't uncomfortable. And that should have been the least in my word. He should have been uncomfortable because he was behaving in a manner that he shouldn't have been behaving. And there's too much tolerance. There's too much tolerance that much tolerance. Yes. Yeah, I have my CTO. He said, I do, I have no tolerance for bad actors. And that's when I knew, when we were courting, that's when I knew I was like, oh, really? And he continued to show up in that way when I was inquiring about certain things. I don't tolerate bad actors. And here's how I respond. And you know, just this instead of us being worried that we're going to lose that we're going to lose our job, the company or it's the company is resp- we should not have to worry that we're losing our job. But because the company is so worried that they're going to lose an employee with a certain amount of domain knowledge and information, they're responding in a way that doesn't protect us. So again, companies are in this position of fear. Right? And so it goes back to that that they're in this position of fear when it comes to DE and I in so many different spaces that they do not, they cannot, will not protect us. And you know, as I've become more competent in who I am as a leader and what value I bring, I'm able to speak up more. And so like when during that mediation, I was like, listen, I cannot, I explicitly said, I will not and I cannot continue to to navigate your feelings and your how you are intimidated by doing anything to offend you. Like I'm not doing anything. I am not said, I am not concerned with you. So I cannot continue to navigate around these feelings that you have because they are your feelings. And it's frustrating. But there's women are not in their point, there are a lot of women that are not in the point in a career, don't have the confidence. Hell, walking away from that, I was like, maybe I should have said those things, but listen. You know, those nagging gnats came to me and were like, was that the best choice? And it's like, well, I'm tired. You didn't say it. Who was going to say it? Like I shouldn't have to keep and making sure that my boss who's meeting the conversation knows I'm not going to continue to do this. So you're telling me how amazing I am. And you want me to mentor this person. So which one do you want to support, I'm not going to keep doing this. That's not my job. Right. My favorite quote from somebody that found me aggressive and intimidating. Me aggressive and intimidating was when I was coaching them, I don't need to learn or listen to you. It's so comical. And I mean, I could have been that the air could talk about. I was like, and who am I? You talking to me? The last I checked if we're going to play into organizational hierarchy. This is a situation where Simon says at the basic level. And not only will I say that to be really persecuting, but I have to because of what you just said to me. Because my role typically is always we work together. You don't know me. We we we we are embarking on this journey together. You just made it not about that. And and that's not okay. It's not okay. That is crazy. I'm just like, uh, uh, who do you tell that you know is going to acknowledge it or not to dismiss it? Like, well, it's not like they just it's not a big deal. That's that's what always happens. Oh well, um, um, no, well, they probably didn't mean it that way. It's okay. And you're like, no, that happened. So like speaking to that, I found this interesting. So 80% of white women and men feel like they're allies of people of color, but only 26% of black women feel supported by the same people feel like they're out white allies. So something's wrong here, right? So let's let's help about a little bit. What do we suggest for folks who want to actually be allies? What's the best way to show up for black women in the workplace? Because apparently they feel like, oh, I like, they're probably I have a black friend and I like black people, but they're not really showing up in being allies when it really counts. So Chelsea, you can take this one to start us off with. Okay. Well, I would say, um, and I think you kind of mentioned a little earlier in the conversation, but if you see something happening, if you see a microaggression happening and you can tell, like, it's not you may not be able to understand like from what was said, I feel like you usually can't, but you can see someone's face when they interact and someone and the reactions aren't the same on both sides. Actually, jump in, actually be an advocate for that person. I think there's been a couple of trainings on it over the last year of how you actually support someone, what it looks like if you see something happening, actually vocalize yourself because that's the number one way to help someone not feel alone, but also show up as an ally because now I also have someone that I know I can go talk to about what just happened that recognizes what happened or recognizes that it was a problem because I think to your point, like, as you said, you know, who do I go tell when something like this happens is you also sometimes because sometimes we're the only others on as many of us, you don't have someone to even go talk to about those things. So I would say interject, I would also say, um, and this isn't even necessarily hyper focus on on race. I think taking a step back and understanding that everyone has a different background and different cultures, you know, like there are certain shows, like, you know, there are people that don't even know what Martin is. I'm like, what? You know, so I've never, to this day, I have never washed one. Any of those quotes, anything, any of those things, I haven't really washed, but understanding that, you know, everyone has a different background and may not have the same experiences as you. So instead of replying with someone says they just for the first time did this or just that and making them feel like, oh man, you've been sitting on the outside of this bubble this entire time. You don't know what this is. You haven't heard of this. Those sorts of things make us feel like we're other. But by not having that shock, not having, like, just understanding that everyone's different or wanting to genuinely hear about this person's experience, those are other ways that we could feel supported and feel included and feel like, okay, we're just one of many different crayons in a box. I love that. And they now have some brown crayons fall the brown shade. So check those out by the way. Erica, what do you suggest? What do you feel like allies can do to be good allies to people of color and specifically also just black women? Yeah, Chelsea had some great ones, you know, the speaking up, I think is the big one is, you know, Shaw mentioned advocating our sponsorship when we're not in the room at, you know, speaking, I don't say for us, but speaking about us when we're not in the room, giving us our credit where credit is due. And taking note, like, if I was the only one in the room speaking up, don't commend me for it. Change and be like, I've gotten not a lot, you know, where I was the one in the room and, you know, private Slack messages. That's awesome. Thank you for speaking up. Well, I'm advocating for myself. Of course, I'm speaking up, but are you? Yeah. No, um, I think another big one is to not take offense when you are educated, when somebody attempts to educate you, acknowledging that they might be coming from a place of frustration and a place of deep tiredness. There's another way to say that is not the most eloquent way, but so tired and done, just exhausted from having to do this over and over again. And you and your one micro aggression passive aggressive, um, just not very thoughtful or tactful comment, and they want to address it, and you don't like the way the thing interests it. Do not get offended. Focus first on listening and understanding where the hell it's coming from. And acknowledging that this person is hurt. And you've put, you have a wounded animal in a corner, I hate to say it like that, but like, you know, and so you've got somebody who's got a cat in a corner has come out with the clause. I acknowledge that and and attempt to do your best to move past your initial flesh emotion and understand the root cause and then address the actual concern that that has been has been raised. Provide more grace and patience because we have provided a hell of a lot. We have extended a significant amount of grace and patience in our careers. Give it back to us. Oh my god, it's like a mic drop. All right. So kind of building on that and wrapping up this conversation, it's been amazing. There's been a lot of labels put on us. And like we talked about stereotypes and how people view us and bias and microaggressions. If you can talk to corporate America, the workplace, what would you want them to know about black women? And we've kind of already talked about our crowns and things like that. So like, shall you, what would you want them to really know about black women? If you could just describe it out and eliminate all the labels, put on us. I would say in one word, powerful. And the reason I would just say that one word is because black women for so long have done so much for everyone. And not to necessarily take it there, I say that to say the nurtured, the thoughtfulness, the caring that has to go into being all of the things that have kind of carried society on their backs for so long has made black women powerful by default. And you know, not only are black women powerful and just being in the cousins and they laugh in their room, but they've smelt their creative, they're all the things that contribute to making a workforce better. And without that inclusion, there's no possible way that you can say I have the best workforce because it's not necessarily and I think that corporate America really needs to embrace that not at a level of well, we have one black woman sitting in the room that that we should have multiple. love that, I love that. What about you Chelsea? What do you wish they would knew about Black women? - I'm sorry, you took them when I was gonna say Shalia, so I'm gonna have to find something different. I would say I wish that they knew. I wanna say, I wanna say magical, but steep in that is resourceful. We can make anything out of nothing. There are just so many different ways that I think that we have learned as a people and especially when you add our gender and our race together, that we've learned to keep moving along. Because we haven't had all the different privileges and legs up that other groups have had, we've had to figure out how to keep moving forward and how to persevere. That's a huge part of what's stitched into who we are. It's almost like that map that we can as soon as we land on earth. Here's your margin order. Here's what you're doing. And we just fall straight into that, you know, it's up with fall in line. And you know, that's of course tiring after time, but it's made us driven. It's made us ambitious. It's made us go geters. It's, I mean, you couldn't ask for it. We're like, I don't know, is there an engine? We're like a ZA, a heavy, I don't know. That's what we are and there's benefit to having us as part of your workforce. Just, you know, as Shalya said, you need, you don't need just one. You need multiple. I mean, it's a solid deal. There will not be a vehicle that is outfitted as nicely as a black woman. And you pay the same, here's the view, you pay the same rate you would have paid a man to do the same job. And you're against something so much better, which is actually why you should get this more money. But that's what I wish that they knew and understood about us. We are so undervalued. And we are seedlings just waiting to thrive. That was so good, Chelsea. Erica. What do you wish they knew about black women? It's harder than we make it look. I think about, I quake that to how we are perceived as black people, physically, right, where you've got the Tuskegee experiment experiment. And the so-called father of medicine who did the experiments on enslaved black women because he didn't believe that they felt pain or their pain threshold was higher. I think I saw something on LinkedIn recently where a nurse, a black nurse who was in school for nursing, excuse me, was doing what is the work where they do? What's the word for it when they're doing? They're taking blood, doing all that. A lot of me? Yes. And she had gone through her training and her instructor was a white woman and said, you know, you're doing an amazing job. And your skin is beautiful. Just remember that black people's skin is thicker. You have to press harder. So this, uh-huh. That's the thing. Now, did that really happen? Not everything on the internet is to be believed, but I do believe that. So my point to say is that even physically, we are perceived as being stronger, right? Like, or having more resilience. So Chelsea, you said earlier, right? I think you were talking about how you had to, how your counterparts were doing the same thing. And they were like, well, that's what I expected of you. So it's harder than we make it look. We're having to work twice as hard. Ten times sometimes as hard for the same to get to the same goal when we should be valued even more because we are working harder to begin with. And we're pushing against norms and social constructs that are there to keep us down and to tear us down. And yet, and still, we are rising. It is- In spite of. In spite of. It is harder than it looks. And we still, still crowning it up. Crowning it up. Magical. Resourcedful. Resourcedful. Magical. Powerful. My word is adaptable because we have had to deal with so much shifts and changes in having to adapt in different environments. And yet, some of that was close, but some of that was survival. Like you said, you just was like, I'm trying to survive. I'm trying to do well in this situation. So that adaptability, when you think about it from a company perspective, you want people like that that can as things shift and change, they can be flexible and nimble and be able to adapt and still rise to the occasion. I mean, like, these are words for everybody's resume. And so our ability just to be able to do that. And like you say, Eric, make it look easy because it's not, but it almost has become second nature to us because we have to deal with so much change in being in different environments and being the only in the room that we've had to adapt and still learn how to win in spite of the things that are we're up against. So I love it. Sisters, thank you for this conversation. This was amazing. Thank you, Erica, Shalya and Chelsea for joining us tonight for this conversation. This was beautiful. And so deep as of gratitude to all of you guys for chatting with me tonight. And I'm really just hoping and praying that whoever listens to this is inspired by each and every one of you and your stories. And I mean, we talked about a lot. Beautiful, all beautiful. This is a great conversation. We unpacked a lot. So yes, again, thank you and listeners. Thank you for joining us for this conversation. And yeah, be sure to hit us up on our Instagram for any questions and follow us to it. Be happy to continue this conversation with you. And as always, guys, Pack Light. Thank you for joining us on Miss Pack Light in color. Make sure you subscribe and follow us on Instagram and Twitter at Miss Pack Light in color. Pack Light.