Black Women Navigating Corporate America - Part 1

Welcome to Miss Packlight in Color, a podcast dedicated to amplifying the voices of black women. We believe that every black woman has a soul story and that sharing these are a catalyst for healing for themselves and the broader community. I'm Candy and I'll be your host, Packlight. Welcome to Miss Packlight in Color. We're kicking off a very, very important series talking about black women at work, where we would dig into all of the hurdles of advancing in your career and corporate America as a black woman. Yes. But before we get into it, make sure you rate, follow, subscribe and review us on Apple, Google, Anchor and all of them and follow us on Instagram for all updates and special content. I have invited some special beautiful black newbie and queens. Do we still say newbie? I don't know. All right. Melanine Queen. Thanks to join me for this very important conversation tonight. First up, I have Erica Chesnut and her title. She has given to herself chief quality champion, which I just love. Come on. So, I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one. The reenactment, the roots, 12 years of slave. Because I found that I could not handle going into corporate white because I found that I could not handle going into corporate white anything at this point that's not in some way at some point I get a glimpse of more of the same, you know, the issues. So it's no longer, well I'm watching what about history, and it's in my spirit and bothers me, it's no this is day, this is current, today happening. So yeah I struggle with that. I struggle with kind of smiling through it, but honestly I deal with that regardless of whether I'm in the office or in Zoom, I still have to engage, I still have to hear somebody make a what they think is a joke saying well I thought I was just being racist and entertaining. That's not a you know like that's not funny. There's nothing entertaining about racism. You know that makes sense that makes sense. Shalia how about you? I think Erica you kind of hit home and so I know the question was about how do you feel about getting back into the office, but also like how did you guys deal with work and in the midst of everything that was going on last year at the same time, how did that impact you as well, Shalia? Yeah you know I have a lot of some of the similar feelings that Erica just shared and I really think back into when everything really started to come to a head and I say come to a head because it was always there, but what happened was we had to consume it more. Media it was in our faces every single day and it wasn't anything new. This is stuff that's been happening for 400 years, but the difference was that everybody sat down, they were inside and people other than black people had to pay attention and they had to digest it and they had to feel it and what they felt was something that they weren't used to. And what they felt they also wanted to talk about and understand and then they started listening and they started learning and you take from that what you will, but for black people and people like myself, I remember showing up to Zoom, especially the day after George Floyd had been killed or that we started to digest it. Let me rephrase that, that after we started digesting all of the information and seeing everything and feeling it over and over and over again. And that morning, I called a meeting I remember and I all the leaders made in office and I remember everybody popping up on the brain, you went scream. I waited intentionally to be one of the last people that popped up with my camera on because I watched everybody pop up and the black employees you could tell those melancholy all over their face. There was some deep sadness. And the white employees, you know, they were, "Hello, hello, hello." And I came on and I said, "Morning everybody, thank you for coming to this last meeting. I want to let you know that I'm not smiling for a reason." And those of you that are feeling what I'm feeling and I explain what I'm feeling, it's okay. There's no need to show up every single day and put on a face when you're not okay. And I feel like me doing that changed the narrative of how people were able to show their emotion for something that was being forced upon them in a way that either they wanted to digest, they didn't. And it opened up a conversation that we probably would never have had in the workplace should something of like that not have happened and we weren't working from home and constantly consuming media in a different way than we have in the past. So I say all that to say that, there are so many different reasons why I would say I'm trepidacious of going back to the office because of some of the things that Erica said like microaggressions or I don't want a long commute anymore and I do love working from home. That's definitely one. Exactly. But I won't also say, there's a different type of microaggression that happens being a black woman at home or a a bi-pop person at home. And is it isolation? Not being in the office and seeing what you could be missing. So there are different things that you have to deal with virtually, then you would deal with if you go into the office. And I think what has changed a little bit about what has happened over the past year is that there's a conversation generally in most places now where this seemingly, and we will see as we start to venture back in office, can be addressed and people feel more open to be able to address these issues. Yeah, that is so true. It plays both sides. I think you brought up a very, very good point. And then, Shally, I just want to commend you for creating that space at work for people to feel comfortable and to share and to have a dialogue, because I just think about some of the situations that I've been in, and it's not because a lot of managers don't know how to approach it, and they don't know what to say. And so therefore, they kind of avoid. And so I'm sure a lot of people, including myself, enter into plenty of meetings where it was just not addressed, and it was weird that day. It was like, okay, so you guys are going on about business, and I understand this is business, but I feel like I am dying inside right now. So it's like I can't care about what you're talking about. And so I think that was a challenge that a lot of us went through. How about you, Chelsea? How do you feel about going back to the office? Is there any sense or feelings around that, and just like the emotional piece? So I would say, partially no, because I happen to have switched jobs in the last month. So for me, I don't really know what I'm walking back into. So I think from that perspective, it makes it a little different. But the reality is I know nine times that of 10. I'm going into an environment where I'm going to be heavily the minority. And so I think for that, what's comforting is that I know the company I'm at now has, they have like different types of initiatives that they've been putting out. But I think one thing that they have in particular is resource groups for people of color. And it's kind of a nice place where you can kind of isolate with other people. You're still out working and like that. But there's people you can go talk to that are from your group that you can relate with, even if the rest of the office isn't necessarily experiencing the same thing. I mean, I would say I guess I'm hopeful and optimistic in the sense that I'm hoping nothing like that continues to happen. But the reality is that it's the climate that we're in that, you know, we have to deal with different types of people. We have to deal with how they experience us. You know, I'm in client service. I have to worry about, you know, what my clients think about, you know, how I present and my appearance. I have to worry about, you know, I think you always have to prove your chops, you know, when you're in client service. But I feel like when you're a person of color, there's like the extra distance you have to go. I mean, every little thing, every little eye you can dot into you can cross. You want to make sure to do that because no matter, even if you check all of the boxes, you know, you're still going to be at a disadvantage. So it's a lot to think about, I think, just as you navigate. So for me, I don't know what I'm going into. So I'm not inherently anxious about it. But I think that I've just grown maybe a place that might be the word with how I have to show up every day, just knowing that I'm going to be in minority and I just accept that it's a reality. Yeah, you hit you pretty much hit it on the head. Like one of the things that I was reading, leaning or they survey, you know, black women. And it said that 50% of black women feel like they're the only meaning you're going to be the only black person in the room or you're going to be the only black woman in the room. And so my question for you guys is like, how does that impact how you show up when you come to work knowing or feeling like you're going to be the only. Erica, kick that one off. It used to be the negative thing. It used to be the thing that would drive the imposter syndrome spiraling out of control or the nagging gnats that would come attacking my power, my confidence. It used to be that thing. It has become probably over the last, I think, year actually. And I want to say it started with the death of George Floyd. It has become a position of power for me. Because I'm looking at it saying I am the only one in the room. I have to show up. I have to be the voice for the others that are not at the table that are not in the space that are not allowed. Here, I have to be there and I have to speak up as well as because I'm a leader. So I have to take advantage of that for the other people, the other leaders that weren't invited to the to the table or the other individual contributors that aren't even supposed to be in the room technically. And it started, I think that mindset shift really started when George Floyd died and I reached out to every single black person in my company. And I individually slack them and I said, are you okay? Can I help you? Do you need to talk? And I became that person and we wound up creating our own ERG group unsanctioned because it was not a thing that was, it was not a thing that was was wanted in the company from some leaders. And so we're like, well, all of a sudden this organic group began to grow. And it was invite only and if you connected with somebody that said that you were cool enough, like in cool enough in the sense that you're not going to go blabbing. Yeah. But this group exists because we need a space for us to talk and share and support each other. But that was the shift for me. It was like I have to show up in these spaces. I love that. I love that. I think that definitely happened over this past year for a lot of us where we were like, well, since I'm the only one. And it's time to really talk about this. I have to to speak about it. And I think some of that fear that might have kept you from speaking about it before you, like you say, it was kind of with or away. You were empowered by that. So one of the terms I just learned recently and you guys might have known it already, but I just heard it. I was like, oh, that makes sense. Was emotional tasks. Have you are you guys familiar with that term? Those terms? Yeah. So it's a state of being on guard to deal with bias and discrimination. Right. And so I was like, Oh, is that how you describe what I feel? And is that feeling that when you show up to the workplace because you are one of the only's, you are, you have a spotlight on you. You have to show up. You have to do good because you feel like you're representative for all the other black women. And if you don't do a good job, then they're going to not give another black woman. An opportunity. And so, Shalya, I would love for you to kind of like talk about that. Have you experienced emotional tasks? And how has that impacted you as far as your mental health as a whole when you show up at the workplace? Yeah. You know, I think what's really interesting is now that we're calling it tax. I didn't realize that I was actually experiencing it until I heard somebody describe it. I had never really actually leaned into it and thought about it. I described it as my way of doing my best work and showing up as my best self. And that was an authentic statement in any way, shape or form. That was me feeling emotionally depleted about having to constantly worry about being the only one about representing myself and all black women to the best of my ability. And constantly looking back and over-criticizing myself for saying something potentially in the wrong manner or messing up on a presentation when nobody else knew that I messed up, but I did. Or overthinking statements at the round table, or I shouldn't have. And constantly wondering if I should be sitting at the table, like Erica said from an imposter standpoint. I didn't know to label it. And I will say much like what Erica just spoke to after the death of George Floyd, it's almost like I had this a fifth name. It's like a light just went off. And I dropped the veil that was in front of me. And I said, like one of my executive coaches always said to me, you need to be your authentic self. And not that I was showing up not as my authentic self, but I what I realized is I wasn't able to show up as my pool self because I was so emotionally touched. And I smile now saying this because you know I know this past year was taxing on everyone in so many different ways. But for me, not only was it taxing emotionally for me, but for me, it was a taxing emotionally. other things that I could digest, it was also liberating. And it was liberating the fact that I dropped a lot of that emotional facts. I also was able to speak authentically in a way that I've never ever been able to speak authentically. And for me, personally, that was the most empowering feeling. And I take it with me and I smile about it now because of that. And it has allowed me to go. I mean, girl, I like to talk anyway, but articulate myself in a way that's different. I feel a sense of holistic power within the words that I speak because they are 100% whole and true. And I'm not constantly overanalyzing what I'm saying. Now, do I still position myself depending on what room I go into? Yeah, absolutely. And I do think about that, but I don't overanalyze it anymore because I no longer doubt whether or not I should be there and why I'm there. So you were playing a little time like Matt Fain. Yes, yes, yes. I know that my words carry weight just like that Erica said, it's now it now feels more like a position of power, but not in a way that it's authoritarian, but that I feel powerful sitting there and I shouldn't have always felt like that. I love that. I love that. So kind of like piggybacking on that kind of spouting a little bit. So there's always exists this underlying pressure of fitting in, right? Simulating to what professionalism is supposed to look like, right? And so some of these ideas come and apply to how you dress or even your hair, right? So how have you guys had to deal with some of these ideas about how you should look, how you should talk professionalism? And you guys kind of hit it on a little bit, but really, let's just go ahead and talk about hair. So Chelsea, how have you navigated Chelsea's a natural chick? And hair and what people consider professionalism in the workplace have you dealt with any challenges with like that at all? So I would say a little bit. As far as my hair, I can't say that I've felt uncomfortable because when I first entered the workforce, I came with my natural hair. So there wasn't another thing for people to be able to prepare it to on me in any case. I would say that what I did struggle with is my African hair naturally is contend to be frizzy, fuzzy, sometimes less defined or eventually second, third, fourth day hair gets fuzzy. And so I struggle sometimes with making sure things look polished because that's kind of that idea of professional that I have, but that's based off of a Eurocentric standard. Our hair doesn't naturally do that. You have a lot of effort into getting your edges all the way laid down and all of your hair kept in or keeping fresh braids. I mean, come on. So I will say that that's kind of been a little bit of a struggle. I think for myself personally, I can't say that anyone's opposed it upon you, but I think that's that. Let me make sure all the eyes are dotted at ease across that I can to remove a variable from, you know, which might be hindering me. And I would say from an attire perspective, you know, so my niece is she just turned 22 and she just left college and just our first job and she's moving into Georgia. And I immediately was asking her, okay, well, what are you planning on wearing? I had to go, I wanted to go through all the clothes she was planning to put on. I wanted to make sure that I set her up with certain pieces and make sure she's a little janky because for me, I remember not having that guidance when I entered the workforce. And I remember being uncomfortable sometimes in rooms when I realized, oh, I'm not quite stressed right for the room that I'm in. And I didn't really have, you know, my parents weren't corporate, so I didn't have my mom was in medical, so I didn't have anyone to go to for those sorts of things. So I've been talking with my niece a lot about how she should, you know, dress with different things she shouldn't shouldn't do. And it's a conversation and a consideration that I think takes more effort than it probably should. And I think that that idea of what professional should it should it should have expanded right now. I don't think it has. You know, like there the suit in, I can't remember which country, but definitely I'm African continent, but their suits are it's a totally different, it's a totally different style than what we're used to seeing with the buttons and everything, but that's considered professional in that culture. And I feel like we need to expand that idea, but I definitely don't think we're very yet. Yeah, so I had this back in the day as I was becoming natural and I had became natural, I would still press my hair before like a big meeting because I was like, if my hair is relaxed, they'll be relaxed. That's what I say to myself. So if I come here with all these curls and stuff, they would be uptight. And like my curls are, but if I like like like this hair look all relaxed, they'll be relaxed. And so I did that for a very long time, unfortunately, right to myself, right? And I remember one time I went to a client meeting and we were pitching for a new client, I had braids. I was about to go to, what was it? Somewhere in Mexico, can't go in something like that. Clearly, the next day, I was going to catch the flight. So I had to have my vacation here. So I had my braids and everything and I had my nails done and kind of more bright than normal color, because I was about to go on vacation. I go into this room, this is very, you know, non blackmail, quite on the older side. And he said, like after we all introduced ourselves in the room, he was like, your hair is very interesting. Like and not in a good way, not in a interesting, ooh, like your hair, it's interesting with like your hair is interesting. And then he went to be like, oh, yellow, your nails. And so this is all in a meeting where pitching a client, right? And I have a big speaking part. And so I just like ignored him and I was like, oh yeah, I'm about to go on vacation tomorrow. You want to come with me? Like I just like just totally brushed him off. And I, you know, did my thing. I presented well. Didn't miss a beat. At the end of it, we all presented our different parts at the end of it. He said, um, so yeah, great presentation you guys. Thank you. And then he personally thanked everyone else by name in the room and skipped me. And I'll never forget it. I'll never forget it. And this was not that long ago. And so I was like and I was waiting for my peers to kind of like acknowledge or say something, but they just kept talking acting like nothing happened, but they had to have picked up on the energy and how he would like zoomed in on me. And that's a good time for someone else, even if we're pitching business, I don't expect for you to check a client when you're trying to get their business, but at least talk to me afterwards about how that was inappropriate and that, you know, but that didn't happen. And so that that kind of stuff makes you want to go back into a shell, right? You're like, I was just trying to come out of my shell from doing the relapse makes them feel relapse and where my hair more natural, but this is not paying off for me. Like this was uncomfortable. This was terrible. And although I knew what I was talking about, did he even listen to me? You know, it's, wow, well, I hate that that happened to you first of all. Yeah. And it's probably a story that so many black women have just like that, unfortunately. And I'm sure in the moment it didn't make you feel good at all. It's one of those situations where you kind of have to look back and say, what did have mattered if I had straight hair or not? Is this person, a person that just cared bias and what it treated me like that regardless. Now let's throw color aside. You know, women. Yeah. Who was this person? But, you know, I kind of think back to this term that's been thrown around a lot lately, which is called like affinity bias. And really, it simply means somebody liking somebody or not liking somebody based on them being a reminder of somebody that they identify with. So it does definitely sound like this person had an affinity bias. You were much different. Braids, you had your colloquial nails. Wasn't in his affinity group. Not something that he's familiar with, but I think that all of the things that we've been talking about and listening and learning to the past year from a fragility standpoint kind of addressed that. And I guess my question that I would always throw out is what have people listen and learn and how are they gonna take that into this new setting that we're going back into because it's new. And have been changed so that people don't have to share the stories that you just shared with us. So it's hard to digest. - Yeah. - You know, I have to get like a chance probably not my troop. - That's it. - I'm out. - No way, Mike, go get that. But it's also us. I mean, I have stories like that, dealing with black women. - I remember this. - Oh yeah. I mean, let's talk for the track writer. What's her name? - Shakar. - Shakar, like they were like, her nails, her hair, and they were just completely judgmental. - Oh, okay. - Shakar, yeah. - Shakar, yeah. - Go ahead, Erica, finish your thought. - Oh, I was just gonna say, I mean, we tear each other down for not having to snatch. I listen, I can't. I've been the baby here. Do I can't? I don't have baby hair. (laughs) - I have a baby hair. - I have Brooklyn off small hairs in the front from trying to act like I have baby hair. - Right. You know, and I'm like, I could never figure out how to, and I'm just like, no, no, this is what my hair does and I'm not putting a whole bunch of gel on it 'cause my hair doesn't like that. So we know doing that. But so we have that, you know, where there's judgment of the, the how we manage our hair today and what we need to do to make it presentable even in its natural state. But then, I remember in my 20s, I worked for the Department of Labor and I had natural hair and I wasn't, I was pressing it, but I wasn't, it wasn't permed. And I got pulled into an office by a black woman and she said, you know, you really should work on your hair. You, it doesn't seem like you permit and you really should because that's more presentable. And at that point, I said, oh, okay. I went straight natural, like I, mm-hmm. - Yeah. - And I've never, from that point in, and I've never shown up at job interviews, especially with anything but my natural hair. In some type of natural state, not, and I mean, not even braids. So I wouldn't have it be anything else that I, like this is come as you are, what you see is what you get, wizzy wig. But also I wasn't working in more corporate spaces. Like I let corporate spaces go because I did not like what it required of me as a woman and as a black woman. And just not being able to be the self that I was developing, especially in my 20s, like I was figuring out, you know, I was like, what does style look like? I'm not a trendy person. I'm not a shopaholic. Like it's hard for me to do that and like putting something together, presentable that's trendy. Yeah, that didn't come easy for me. And so being able to do that or, you know, being able to like, it be an environment where I could experiment and not be judged as harshly was helpful, but I still had judgments even in those spaces, right? They're just, it wasn't the same as maybe corporate America. So I had a little bit more leeway, if you will. But yeah, I mean, we do it ourselves. It's a thing. I can't even know what my hair looked like when she met me. I was a Friday, every Friday, at the salon, getting my hair blown out, relaxed, long. It was like the quintessential, I have to have my hair laid. And for some reason, I hit a breaking point where I was just like, one, I don't want to put these chemicals in my hair anymore and I just kind of want to, you know, rock what God gave me. And so I started going through a process of, you know, growing it out and everything. And I remember one day where it just hit the fan where I could not exist with half-room out, relaxer and natural hair. And it just looked a hot mess. Like forget about showing up presentable. I just looked like I had hopped out of bed every single day. So I walked into a salon and I did the big chop. I cut it all off. And I, they probably kept a little bit more than they should have, but they shouldn't buzz my head at that point. Anyway, I tried to the office and an executive walks in and sees me for the first time. And the reaction was, oh, your hair. And then I think that's a cop himself. And then they don't, do you like it? Not. I throw a grist in. I'm like, roll without that. Oh, literally. And on my head, I'm like, should I answer that question? I mean, I can't say what is growing out of it right now. I can't put it back. I can't. And so I answered like this. I said, yes, like a question mark that. But one, that was not good. But two, it was something that from that point on, made me say, I will never again not rock my natural style. I will never again step away from that. Because I didn't want to have to prescribe to one set of beauty, when I know that there are other women in this office that are not at the level that I'm at, rocking their natural hair. And I want them to understand that you can still be powerful and walk into a room and do all of the things that I'm doing and beyond what I'm doing. And if it may be something as small as the fact that I have curly hair, and it doesn't always look organized or it's hard to watch. So I don't always show up with it looking like this. Or I throw it in a bun or it may be frizzy or we all have different textures. That it's okay. And that you need to understand. And everybody else needs to understand that that difference is beautiful. And it is what is needed in any work setting. So that somebody doesn't say, do you like it? Because that do you like it? Question means should you manipulate it to be more mainstream? And I'm using air quotes because the answer is, no, if you want to, yes, but you don't have to. And can we normalize air wraps, please? I mean, head wraps, air wraps. This is the air quotes. Yes. And I've never thought of that. I too. I feel like hard. So my hair was much shorter. At the beginning of the pandemic, I was getting the sides in the back shaved. I'd gone with some crazy cut because my son said I should get in my hot tooth. But the pandemic wasn't going to the barbershop and I was like, well, this looks a little sketch. So I started rocking my head wraps more. And I've done it for years. But this for the, like, probably the last 12 months while I was growing out. Let's call it 10. I was rocking my head wraps. And I always get great compliments on it. But before I left the office, maybe a few months before that happened. A woman, a receptionist who for the building, I was talking to two of them, one of them very friendly. The other one, they're both black women. The other one, she pressed, she wore weave, she pressed her hair. She, she felt like she had a certain way to be. And we got into a conversation because the one, the other woman who was natural, she's like, I love your head wraps. I wish I could do that. And I was like, well, I could do it. And she decided to chime in. Now I never talked to this woman because she, a lot of people said that there was some, there was some energy differences there. And so I didn't really deal with her. The other woman, she had low vibrations. Very low vibrations. The other one, she and I were rocking on the same, we were at the same level. We were all up in here high and happy. But she decided she was going to chime in on the conversation. And was like, did you get permission to do that? I think I was an owl at that point because my head turned all the way around. I'm sorry, who had to give me permission? I'm sorry, I never, I never questioned that I had to ask. I just put a head wrap on my head that matched my outfit and looked glorious. Do you see this crown? You see, when I put my head wraps on, they look like crowns. And that's, that's, look, that's, that's, listen, walk into that. with your power. Like do you exactly walk into that with your power? Can you see this? There have been times that I've intentionally put on certain head wraps to go into certain meetings because I knew I'm like I'm wearing the sunken crown today because I'm gonna need y'all to see this to handle you, right? But just the fact that she asked me if I if I asked permission, you know, she's like, well it's like the enslaved mentality. You know, like I gotta ask permission. And then she goes and I was like, I'm sorry, what? And we just continue you know, and she said, well, it's not very professional, is it? So you're telling me I'm not, I'm not professional. Do you do? Okay. So then I had the flex on her, which I don't usually do. I'm the person that you ask me what I do in a group of people and I'm gonna tell you I'm in a department. I'm not gonna tell you I leave the department or anything like that. But I said, I've led teams of global teams of over a hundred people wearing this same type of head wrap. I'm head of this department at this company wearing this same head wrap. I'm still professional. You know, and yeah, she say, well, what's her response? She just, well, her face was her face was. Her vibrations go lower. She was salty because I was being petty. And I was, right? I was, I was like, you're asking me as the receptionist, which is not a bad job. It's an excellent job. But you're telling me I'm not professional when I'm leading teams, I'm leading departments. Wait a minute. There's a problem here. It's not stopping me in my career. So she just, yeah, we just, we, man, we kind of stuff. As black people and black women, we have got to stop eating up on each other. Wow. So kind of, you know, it's crazy. It's that yes and it's like, you enlightened her. And she saw professionalism in another light, hopefully. No. Maybe this is a teaching moment. No, she continued to go on to say, I just don't believe that. Shoulders back and everything like I just don't believe that. I mean, she was looking at me. Do you sis continue on? Kiki didn't give a little bit up later. But oh, yeah, she's one in the, sips, sit all the tea. So kind of speaking to that, right? Thank you for listening to black women navigating corporate America part one. Check us out next week as we dive into part two conversation gets good.