Black Tie: Rules, Rituals, and Relevance with Aleks Cvetkovic

Black type used to be. It was considered the casual option or the option that you only wore with friends or the option that you only wore in formal dinners. It's all about silhouette. It's about the kind of lines of the body that it kind of paints on you. If you're into clothes, the thing that you are most interested in when a new Bond film comes out is what is his interpretation of a Black type going to be. Yeah, in Casino Royale, his denissue was not tom-foured. It was biorny. The entire audience went, "Ehh, whether it's quarter-zone or dopamine, whatever it is that got set off, that set it off for the entire audience." And this is what great clothes to do and the tuxedo is right at the top of that. I have edited "Copy of Yours", which was pretty firm about not wearing black tie at weddings. What did you edit your wedding? Hello and welcome back to a brand new season of the Luxury Dispatch. The podcast that reveals the refined and the rare, people items and stories that make up the luxury industry. I'm Tom Chamberlain and today we shall be stepping up the formality and dig deep into black tie. Few garments carry quite the same sense of occasion as the dinnersuit. Black tie represents one of the clearest expressions of formal elegance and yet, like all traditions, it invites questions. Where did it come from? How strictly should it be followed? Where is their room for personality? And why does it continue to endure? To guide us through that world, I'm joined by Alex Svekkovich, brand strategist writer and one of the sharper subservers of Mondestar and tailoring. Alex, welcome. What a treat to be here. Isn't it fun? Isn't it glorious? Look at us. With our dicky bows on. You and I, you are an alumnus of the rake and therefore you and I have spent just hours, hours talking about the correct width of the bow tie. Indeed. I have various types of barra-their. Please, try other hands. Absolutely. I mean, we've really gone over it also. Who better? To have this particular conversation about a subject that everybody knows about. But perhaps isn't necessarily understand or wants to really get to know it in greater detail. So where do we go from here? Well, do we perhaps we start with the origin story? Sure, we sort of unpick the mythology a little bit. We could talk a little bit about the great male renunciation. The end of the 18th century, great fun, great male renunciation. Love that. Basically, everybody turned from wearing breeks and stockings and highly embellished clothes to something more austere and less embellished. Right. So this is the era of the French Revolution where if you were highly coloured and silken and embellished, you got your head chopped off. Indeed. And if you were in Britain, you just were a fob. And they didn't like that. And then long-conservictorian era, because everything was coolly and dusty and horrible. And so you ever turned to darker fabrics. But there was one great consistency that came along from all that was always in some kind of tailcoat. Sure. Morning dress? Yeah. For riding. For a frock coat, which frankly they should bring back. But that's a whole other topic. And what we know now today is white tie. So the evening dress with tailcoat. So let's go with that in mind. That was how everybody was dressed. It was very formal. Yeah. And then we're always in some kind of tails. Yes. It's the key thing. Right. Exactly. Pretty restrictive. So something happened in the mid 19th century where this weird thing came along called the lounge suit. Indeed. Let's go into that. Positively racy at the time. Yeah, casually. Very casual, very informal. The sort of the idea of cutting the tails off the bottom of a jacket was in its time quite initially quite controversial. Which is a bizarre thought for today. But as society was kind of loosening up a little bit and men were becoming a little more active. This idea of the lounge suit or the town suit sort of develops. Yeah. And you know, certain certain sensible individuals go it's quite nice actually not to have to wear tails all day every day. So it catches on. And I think at this point we have to introduce a regular feature on your podcast, which is the molecule. The principle of Wales at the time. Edward the seventh to be dirty, dirty into my favorite. In in 1865. Yeah. He decides he's fed up of having to wear white tie and tails every evening every dinner. Yeah. And he goes to his tailor, Henry Paul, the oldest tailor on Savile Row established in 1806 still around today still around today. Glorious place. He goes to his tailor and he says, I want you to make me something for informal family only dinners at Sandringham in the country, which in sort of the social context of the time is as casual as it can possibly get. And they say, okay, we'll come up with something and they cut him the ledgers tell us a celestial blue short evening coat, which is basically a lounge suit with no tails in this wonderful midnight blue color for memory. I think it was some kind of silk. I do like celestial blue. That is better. We should bring it back. Yeah. Why isn't everyone using celestial blue on their sort of e-commerce website? I'd like a celestial blue suit please. So this short jacket appears, which he wears strictly when he's not on show in a social context and he loves it. And we then have to skip forward about 20, 25 years to 1886 when the Prince of Wales takes a trip to New York and ends up mooching about a tuxedo park north of Manhattan. Yeah. Which is to take a context. It's what people refer to as a sort of gated community today. It's where very large houses, very rich people. Tuxedo as a word comes from the Algonquin that means talk situ, which means place of the bear. Love that. Quite a top knowledge. Enter the rate. Yes. So he's mooching around Tuxedo Park and he meets a chap called James Brown Potter. And more importantly for this story, he meets James Brown Potter's apparently very beautiful wife, Korra. Deora Cora is quite smitter. Very good. So she, yeah, he's the Prince is smitten and he therefore invites Brown Potter and Korra to an informal dinner at Sandrigham. And the funny thing is is that they went because the thing is if he at the time were to invite you to something like that, the men's, I mean, maybe because he was American, he didn't quite know that, you know, Edward was likely to try and have sex with your wife. So the fact that they went, I think shows, Graples or perhaps you can't turn down invitations from, you know, that was quite. And then he's talking about the fact that he's a very beautiful man. And he's talking about the fact that he's a very beautiful man. And the other thing here that is really interesting is the way that this short evening jacket, I don't know if there's any record of what the lapels were, but it was almost certainly cut as a reference to a smoking jacket like what you're wearing this evening. So that jacket is again responsible for this really lovely kind of interplay between a smoking jacket and a dinner jacket, which we can talk about in a bit. I would have guessed it's a shoulder-pel thing. And I tell you why it's because the introduction of peak lapels on single-breasted jackets can't be laid to. It's a bit like something that Edward just was like, yeah, let's do that. I think he would have gone with something like, as you say, that was a kid to the Roebhe de Shrom, which was the precursor to the smoking jacket, which we had shoulder-pels. Absolutely. A kind of small rope to tie around you. And this is another sort of really interesting thing in the kind of codification of black tie. I get, well, there's two thoughts. but my first quick thought is, I absolutely agree, it couldn't have been a peak lapel 'cause they don't really catch on till sort of the turn of the 20th century. And even then, they're initially seen as quite flash, which a monarch would never be. - No, didn't. - And or a royal. But also things obviously have relaxed today and I would argue that the style of lapel on your dinnersuit is not something you need to be militant about, but back then, one would never wear an actual lapel for an evening garment because it was an informal lapel that one wore during the day. - Yep. - Correct. And so he would have issued the notch lapel in which they wouldn't have shown the peak. Therefore, we deduce Rob地 Shaw. - Look at us. - Yeah, indeed. - Sutter it is. - Sutter your sherlocks. (laughing) One of the great mysteries of life is now solved. - Yes, indeed, yeah. - Congratulations, everyone's been pulverated. - Well done, us. Before we go into anything really black-tike 'cause we're gonna be talking a lot about lapels, a subject that you and I have spoken about years. - And then, for years. - Column inches on lapels. (laughing) - There are three major types of lapel. Shaw, which is what I'm wearing. Peak, which is what you're wearing, and then notch, which is the traditional, or step lapel. - Yes. - I think there might be an America that's not I can't be sure, but the notch lapel is what you will traditionally see on most jackets, especially suits. - Yep. - I would predict that for most guys listening to this, 70% of the jackets in your wardrobe are gonna have a notch lapel on them. It's the conventional lapel. - Exactly. - So let's go through, talk about codification, I love that. What are the component parts of a traditional dinosuit? Let's start with the jacket. So we have to have contrast lapel, - Yep. - Which is usually either satin or. - Silk grograin. - Silk grograin. - Yes. - The key is that really it should match whatever your bowtires. - Yes. - Yes. - So there should be that sort of consistency in the sort of the kind of middle third of your body, and then that sort of softer color to either way, so not as bright, especially with the light hits it, we'll bear with here for the outside, for the main body of this suit. - Yes, and the logic behind the midnight blue celestial blue is actually in low light. It reads as more black than black. - That is very true. And I actually think just from a style point of view, midnight blue is really, really nice. I mean, I know I'm sitting across someone wearing black, so I don't want to sort of. - Well, this is midnight blue. - Is it? - To confound you, this is midnight blue mohe. So it does read as more black than black. We now, that was an evidential test. - There is an evidential test, and that's a sexton. - This is also the first midnight blue dinosuit I've ever owned, historically. - And Edward, of course, much missed. - Much missed indeed. - This is one of the first suits that the great man was not able to cut me, because he passed away. But the new head cutter in there, Joe, who's brilliant cut this for me, for my wedding. - Very nice, you're wedding suit. - Yes, it is my wedding suit. - We're gonna get on wedding in black, Ty. - Well, it's one half of my wedding suit, 'cause I also went overboard and had a smoking jacket, which I changed into. - Very good. I did morning suit and then lounge suit. - Yeah, there we go. I think more men should feel that they should be allowed to change during their wedding. - But can you make more changes to your wife? I think you've done very, very well. - Very good thing. (laughing) - Okay, so we sorted the jacket. In theory, few embellishments, you don't want any sort of half belts at the back, like I do with my lounge suits. You don't want any buttons wise. You can, in theory, just have a single button. - Yes. - But I know that you've gone with four, and I actually do think that's smarter. I do like that. This has got to turn back cuff and no buttons whatsoever. - Which is very smoking jacket, very nice. - Very nice for a jacket. The buttons, if you're going to wear them, should be covered in the same fabric. - Which is actually an important distinction between lounge suits and black tie, or did it just just that covered buttons is a must for fur suits. - Yes, it is. - And to your point about not having any kind of pleats or half belts or embellishments on it, because it's not a sporty garment. It's a dress garment. Traditionally, black tie is semi-formal and white tie is full dress. - Yep. - No flaps on your pockets. That's the other thing. - Yes. - Or if you have flaps, tuck them in. - Now, yes. But also, traditionally no vents. - Indeed. - Now, vents are for those who are listening or watching. They are those sort of slits at side of a jacket. And I should say this now, because this is a particular, do not get single sort of scent events. I don't like them. If you've got that, I don't like it. (laughs) Because that is for writing. If you're not writing a horse, then you shouldn't be having it. And it makes your bottom look bigger than it actually is. So take it from me, it's not flattering. - Tries is. - Yes. - You want them high waisted. - Yes. - Ideally double pleated. You want braces. - Yep. - Actually generally in trousers and knee braces. No turn-ups. - No. - That is so, despite the fact that I turn back cuffs, because I'm wearing a smoking jacket, I would not recommend them really for your traditional jacket. Certainly not on trousers, but then there is that interesting satin band that goes right up, so the leg. - So braiding is traditional. Again, this comes from in the history that I always find quite interesting, particularly a British tailoring. That it kind of always somehow ends up coming back to military uniform. - Yep. - So the braid on a military uniform dress uniform was echoed in the, in the dinner suit trouser. - Yeah. So traditionally for black tie, you have one braid, the white tie you have a pair of braids. - Yes. - And that's the distinction. - Correct. - And then if you would like to, and you may or may not be able to see, you can pick up the same grow grain that's on your lapels and your buttons or the same silk on your trousers of waistband. Talking of waistbands. I'm loving how nerdy this is. - It's just super. - It's not as warm as nerdy enough. - Comeer buttons is another thing that I think a lot of guys don't quite know what it is, what it's for, how to wear it. - Yep. - So a comma button is obviously that sort of sash of pleated silk that you can wear around your waist. You've got to wear it around your waistline to cover a high waisted trouser. There's no point wearing it down on your hips if you've got a low cut trouser. It doesn't look right. - No. - You only wear them with a single breasted dinner jacket. - Yep. - Which is why we are both in double breasted and we don't have them on. - Correct. - And you must always wear them. And this is the thing that I used to find guys would always ask me. So I hope this is helpful. You always wear them with the pleats up because traditionally you would tuck your ticket stubs into the pleats when you went off to the opera or the opera or something of that nature. So pleats always up, but only wear it with a single breasted jacket. - And I would suggest to anybody who is a member of a army regiment, a club or anything. If you've got a colored, a sort of a version with colors on it, wear it. - Yes. - Really great. The best I've ever seen is an old Indian regiment called Skinner's Horse. And the light dragudes today at the British Harbi are pair, sort of, they're sort of sister regiments really and they're sort of friendly. Like how cities can be twins, you know what I mean. So sort of a twin regiment. And they are allowed to wear it. And I've seen them wear it and it looks incredibly smart but it's kind of gold, blue. I mean, it's fabulous. - It's amazing, yeah. - It really stands out. - But again, that's kind of interesting, isn't it? Because while we would say you never change the color of your bow tie, actually something down here that kind of breaks the top half and bottom half is kind of interesting. - It looks terrific. And I think those sort of subtle differences are kind of key. 'Cause if you did that up here on war of Skinner's Horse bow tie, I would be like, no, don't do that. - 100%. And in fact, I think, and people sort of ask about sort of my style. I think it's so long as I'm getting sort of as close as humanly possible to military attire but a civilian version of it without kind of dipping into stolen valor or anything like that. That's when I'm in my happy place. And now a word from our sponsors. Brigham Brellas have been a part of the Swayne family since the night of February 1943. Thomas Brigham's sons were facing the uncomfortable reality that their Paris flagship was under occupation by some rather bad Jack booted eggs. The wartime of algamy should form to what became Swayne aideneer Brigham. Today, simply Swayne now in its 276th year. This is not retro nostalgia. This is a house that has quietly equipped London gentlemen since before the United States for America existed. 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The brand describes this year's campaign as a quiet authority, or rather like that, because true authority is about composure, not attention seeking, and composure, particularly in Britain, has always been where our power calmly lies. Why do you think Black Tire resonates as a sort of go-to dress code? I think we all like feeling a little bit special, don't we? And sort of it is as special as it gets today, really. And you know, I would. It would. A part of me thinks it'd be great fun if we're all still wearing white tie and tails, but we don't. Black Tire is the thing. Yeah. There's something really interesting, isn't there? And again, in this idea that Black Tire used to be sort of. It was considered the casual option or the option that you only wore with friends or the option that you only wore in formal dinners for a long, long time. And yet today it has morphed to a place where it is the pinnacle of. Yeah, 100% formality. Some people don't realise that there is a white tie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. I'm not going to get the anecdote quite right, but there's a tremendous. I always hone in on this. There's a really lovely sort of well-observed moment and little bit of writing. There's a moment in Downton Abbey where, you know, Hugh Bonifield, Lord Grantham, comes down to dinner at home with the family for the first time. At some point in the 1920s in a dinnersuit, not in his white tie and tails that he starts the whole programme in. And everyone is absolutely shocked and appalled. And Maggie Smith, the Dowder-Counters, says something like, "Are we going to a barbecue or something?" Yeah, I know. That's not quite the right quote. But it captures that attitude of, oh my goodness, this is new and disruptive and almost inappropriate. So I love the fact that that's where it started. And then today it is sort of so prim and proper, but actually, you know, so many men don't get the opportunity to wear it so often. It's now this kind of weird arcane thing with all these rules and regulations that we don't quite all understand necessarily. Of course, the great figure is James Bond. And all posters for every James Bond film is him in Black Tie. Yeah. That has to be cool. If you're into clothes, the thing that you are most interested in when a new Bond film comes out is what or a new Bond is announced is what is his interpretation of a Black Tie going to be. Yeah. How is he going to show up and play with it? And actually to the franchise is absolute credit from a technical nerdy, I'm giving you Mark's perspective. They always get the codes and the sort of do's and don't spot on, but they always kind of leave room for a little bit of personal expression. What criticism from me. Oh, who's who's you know, the coolest, the coolest scene in all of film is when Sean Connery, the first time he says Bond, James Bond, he said the table playing, "Shamander Fair." It's a tiny bit, I think the lapels today, I think the turn back cuffs are too thin because but that's entirely subjective because at the end of the day, what's the result? He looks amazing. At the same time, I didn't really like Roger Moore's see through shirt that he wore for oxypacy. No. It looked great. There's something interesting in there because those are expressions within the kind of spectral of black tie that are relatively rooted in a fashion moment. So you've got Connery sort of debuting Bond in the, I'm going to say mid-60s, roughly, when the mod suit is a thing and everything is very nipped in. lapels are super slim. It's all about slim lines and trim cuts, right? So the black tie reflects that but it doesn't necessarily therefore age that well. Yes. But at the same time, throw things at you, saying, having an opinion, the makers of the suits back then were not fashion designs. They were tailors, Cyril Castle, Dougie Hayward, who made Roger Moore's and Connery suits, they were traditional tailors. Yes. But they still responded to changes in silhouette, right? Yes. So if you think about Hardy Aimeez, it's this huge proponent in the 60s of slimming everything down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Edward, this suit is interesting because it's based on a style of suit that Edward Sexton used to call semi-drape, which basically means room in the chest without making it too huge. Yeah. And that's a style that he learned to cut in the 50s at Kilgar, French and Stanbury, which is a tailor that's no longer there on Savile Row. So he learned to make everything big and voluminous and kind of drapey in the 50s and then the 60s come in and everything just goes, ww. Raise a sharp and slim and Sean Connery. Yeah. And there are, I think, some kind of nuances in how Black Ty sort of evolves through the decades in terms of silhouette. Yes. But it's interesting to me that the two that you've picked out as not aging well are kind of rooted more in the fashion of the moment. Yeah. Whereas I think you could argue, and I have some bug, well, actually quite a lot of bug bears about the Tom Ford era of Bond dressing. I don't think Daniel Craig, I think the Daniel Craig Bond films are great fun. I thoroughly enjoy them and return to them. I think he was a brilliant Bond, but I think the wardrobe wasn't quite at the standard it should have been in a lot of instances. In loads of instances, it's always too tight. Yeah. We never wore a bloody pleat that man, unbelievable. I mean, it's sort of extraordinary. If you're an, sorry, I need to pose myself. If you're a kind of action man, you want pleat. Yeah. Because restrictive trousers are just, they're ripped. No, it's stupidest thing. You need room. You need, you know, as much give as possible. Yeah. But they insist on making it tighter and tighter and tighter. It's stupid. Now, it doesn't matter. The Daniel Craig was jacked. It doesn't matter. No. It's good tailoring covers for that. In the same way that people always say that, you know, Edward the Seventh, you know, his bottom button popped off his, you know, waistcoat. And that's why everyone undoes the bottom bottom of their waistcoat. No, that's not what happened. He has, he had, he hit, I mean, Henry Paul was his tailor. They know how to make waistcoats for bigger people. Yeah. It didn't elude them. Edward Seventh wasn't like the only fat guy in that era. So they were able to sort of deal with that. It was because he was writing, it thought it's more comfortable. So he undid it. Everybody else did it. That's why he did it. But the point is the idea of having. having a bond that, you know, it's super tight. It just wasn't great. He think back to, I mean, not necessarily back to, I mean, think back to that 3P suit and Gold finger. Or the, I mean, actually, tell you what, in Casino Royale, his dinner suit was not Tom Ford. It was Brioenny. And Brioenny had come off a mega good run with Pierce Brosnan, that fabulous double-breasted Navy jacket with the gold buttons in, in Golden Eye. He Brioenny did a great job. And that Tuxedo, I remember I was in the cinema when watching that. And there was a moment, that moment where, just before, no, it was just after Eva Green, sort of, they were dinner jackets and they were dinner jackets. This is the latter. That moment. And then he appears from side of camera into the middle of the shot, wearing his Tuxedo. And the entire audience went, and that, at that point, I knew that clothes did something that I hadn't considered in the past before. That they, like how, when you hear a wonderful crescendo in music, whether it's Cortezone or Dope, I mean, whatever it is that got set off, that set it off for the entire audience in a way that it did none of the gun fights or anything did, a beautifully made suit. In the same way that when the Romans made statues and they knew how to flatter the shoulders, the hips, the neck, the waist, all that. And it was a thing of true beauty. That was exactly what happened at that moment. And this is what great clothes and doing, the Tuxedo is right at the top of that. - Yeah. - So I wonder what will happen next, because obviously we've had our bond of tightness. - Yes. - Killed off. - Yes. - Spoiler alert. (laughing) - What do you think's gonna happen next? - Well, so I, sorry, what do you think should happen next? - What I think should, well, the only thing I'm, I think that has sort of been announced is that they're writing the next bond to be a prequel. So it's kind of gonna be the origin story. - Yeah. - It's gonna be Commander Bond, I think. So he might be in Mestress at some point. - That would be good. - Which we're gonna have to get right. - I love that. Naval Mestress is trying to think, yeah, it is, it is, it will be, yeah, it will be uniform. Number one or number two, won't it? - Yes. - Again, I don't know a huge amount about Naval Mestress. - Those who have these shell jackets, where they're basically sort of cut off around the top of the waist. - Right. - Which has all sorts of other stuff. But we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, - So that will be quite fun. They're gonna, presumably, they're gonna have to, I mean, you have to give Bond a black tie moment. Doesn't really matter where you're at. - No, I think that's the thing with, when you had, there has to be that. - Yeah. - My assumption is that when they announce the next bond, there's gonna be a picture of him wearing black tie. - Yes. - One would expect so. - Now, it would be huge. - It's usually disappointing. If with all the, I mean, my guess is that the next bond girl is gonna be called Alexa and that, 'cause Amazon owner, you see. - Very good. - And of course. - And, you know, there's gonna be all sorts of that, that going on. But if they don't choose a British designer, I'd be hugely disappointed. My hope is that they go with someone like Simon Holloway at Dunhill. - Yes. - 'Cause I think that he would do an amazing job. Now, he knows how to use a pleat. - That's a great idea. - Yeah, that's a really good idea. - It should be a British brand really, shouldn't it? - So, here's my appeal to David Heyman. - So, okay, so we're saying. - The next bond, pleats, please. - Pleats, please. - Don't paint the suit on. - Correct. - I was wondering, we've not had double breasted dinner suit for a while. - But do you know why? - Why? - Because you can't get out of gun easily if you wear double breasted. - What if they make it a low one like mine? - Looks, it's a button's on there. - They did a six by one. (laughing) - A six by one. - A big glorious. - Or just don't have any action point. - Yes, or he just. - Just have pure added comfort. - Maybe a bit of sex. - A craft specialist or something. He doesn't need a gun. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Kills people with his umbrella. - He's on a boat. - Yeah. - Maybe. - Bang bang. - Yeah. - We should write a bond film. - I mean, it's writing itself at the moment. - A crafty, maybe, bang bang. (laughing) - Colorful, common bond. - Naval cum, yeah. - Yes, it is, yeah. - It's a regimental cum a bond. (laughing) - This is what, I mean, this is being why I straight to David Heyman's office, the great producer of bond now. - It's the new producer. - Right. - And then watch. - Yeah. - Now here's the interesting thing. There are people out there who say, that you should never wear a watch with black tie. And I would say that's bollocks, a bunkum. - Yes. - Anyone who says that is one of those people who think that no brown and town is something you should listen to as well. - Yes. - It's, you know, those sort of rules that people have suggested might be wrong for me, just to do, they don't do no longer stand here. - Risk watches, sorry, dress watches, sorry, have been around as long as risk watches. - Yeah. - And so since the beginning of people wearing rich watches, they were designed for the purpose of wearing informal settings. - Absolutely. - With beautiful black leather straps. - Yeah. - Nice and small discreet. - Small discreet. - Which is the keys are getting it right today, right? I mean, we're both in relatively small. - So this is a fun dress. - It's a fun dress. - It's a fun dress. - This is a fun one. This was my grandfather's. And this is from the 1950s. It's a long gene. And it was at the time, I believe, the thinnest watch in the world. - Tremendous. - So that's a very cool thing. - Yeah. - So you can absolutely do it. - You can absolutely do it. And I recommend you do it. But just, you know, do probably stick with the slim. - Yeah. - Small slim, elegant, probably gold. - Yeah. - But no, I completely agree. You can absolutely wear a watch. - Ideally match, if you're wearing any other metal like studs, ideally match the metals. - Yes, always. And actually, there's another interesting little nuance in there, which is I am sat here right now. I will confess, for any absolute sticklers out there, I am breaking one rule. - Studs. - Yes. - The black tie, traditionally, one never wears studs. You wear a covered placket. - You wear a covered placket. - Actually shirts are quite an interesting topic. - Yes. - So shirts, we're wearing very different shirts. - Indeed. - Yours, so traditionally, these shirts should have a bib. - Yeah. - These bibs can be one of three things. Pleated, like you have, ruffled, like Warren Beaty War. - Or, - Marceler. - Marceler. Sort of bit. - Cotton PK. - Yes, PK, it's kind of like, yeah, it's kind of a mesh. - It feels sort of tougher. - Yeah, exactly. - And that has its origins from a start shirt front. - Correct. - Which is all dress shirts used to be start to be the range of their life. - My preference is that. I know yours is-- - I like pleats. - There's, however. The other sort of curve ball, as I believe they prefer to in sporting occasions like baseball, is this silk shirt. - Yeah, which is lovely. - But worn only with a smoking jacket. - Yes. - And I probably would say don't wear a bibbed pleated or PK shirt with a smoke jacket. - It's a smoke jacket. I would say only wear a silk shirt with a smoke jacket. I think because silk is actually quite a sort of flimsy fabric and it just, that relaxed sense of it. And also it's ivory. It's not white. - Yes, same here, off white. - If you want to go bespoke, there are a few. - Yeah. - But you've got choice. You've got, let's start with German street. You've got Emma Willis. - Yeah. - Who probably makes the sexish shirts, but if you're in your 20s with a six pack and like a really great shape, it that works much better for you than for me who needs a little bit more forgiveness with my dad bod. So I turn, so Stephen Lackter does, he's terrific. - Yeah. - Tumbling asser. - Yeah. - But for, I think for pure traditionalism, bud, bud, it's buds that place. - Do you think? - Well, this is Emma Willis. - Yeah. - Ready to wear. - Which is why you look so sexy. Thank you. - Thank you for. (laughing) And I really do, for formal wear, I really rate Emma shirts. I think they're beautiful. They're really well made. They're made in the UK. Yes, they're expensive, but they're super quality. - This is the thing. People sort of, I think, I know that there's, if you look to, the operation she has in Gloucestershire, for example, everything makes sense. - Yeah, it's glorious. - It's, yeah, it's just glorious. - Then there's Charvet in Paris. - Yes. - I think probably the ultimate shirting destination full stop. My understanding is that they have something like 400 shades of white shirt, and then 72 shades of black. - I mean, if you're into, you know, classic clothes, regardless of whether you're looking for a shirt or not, when you are in Paris, you've got to go to Charvet. - Yes, I do. - It's almost like a pantheon of tradition, isn't it? - A friend of mine is a brigadier in the British Army, and his great treat is to go to Paris and get a Charvet buton, yeah. - Lovely. - For Christmas. That's his Christmas treat. Worth talking about shoes as well. - Yes. - So we're both wearing our patent leather, I say yours are slippers rather than pumps. - They are technically slippers, yes. - Mine is a pump, largely because of the lovely little bow on there. These are Gatayon and Girling and they are superb and basically modeled on what the King wore at the coronation. It's that he took off the bow and put on this sort of lovely buckle as a tradition. And so there are, you can do painted leather oxards, you can do suede. Yes. So if you want to or velvet slippers. So suede velvet slippers, where's your not suede slippers really? You do suede like black suede oxards or something. Actually quite nice. Yeah. But I would say the less material on the shoe for black tie the better. Absolutely. Yeah. You don't want lots of brogging and things that are kind of associated with, you know, brogging traditionally is sort of all about sort of being out, out, about around town. Yeah. You want something really simple. Yeah. Anything that isn't shiny, don't. Yeah. It does look bad. Yeah. If you haven't shiny shoes properly. I would say if you're sort of, if you're embracing black tie for the first time. And you really want to go for it and you want to get a whole lot, just get a really simple patent leather, like this, it's the safest place to start. Yeah. Completely correct. Now there are debates on internet about what the most formal versions of black tie are. Some say it's most form of three piece, then double breasted, then single breasted. Some people say literally the opposite. Yeah. What do you think? I think, and I'm going to, I'm going to caveat this so that I'm not dragged over hot coals. It's much of a muchness today. Yeah, I know. Really. Yeah. But I would say three piece most formal. To me, I agree with the, I agree with the crowd. See, I, okay. So my feeling is thus. I think that a single breasted jacket and trousers, despite the fact that it's the simplest, is the original. And that is what Edward, the seventh commissioned or Bertie commissioned. And therefore, as the OG, I would sort of always give that the president. See, I don't wear that. I wear double breasted, not because I'm looking to, you know, be consciously less formal and stuff. But I do think that that has to sort of take precedent and also with the comeabund and stuff. It just feels that much better. And I don't know, I waste so much of much of it as well. That's the thing. I do like your logic. I'm persuaded by that argument. You know, the original has to kind of stand on the pedestal of its own. Yeah. I think there's, I guess this leads us on to the other thing about black tie, you know, that I think there is often. Often men feel that it's not something you necessarily need to pay too much attention to or get right because ever in the room is just in a black suit and a white shirt and a black bow tie. 100%. But actually, if you know, and let's face it, we are talking about a very, very niche pursuit here. But if you, if you really want to embrace it and have a bit of fun with it and you're into your clothes, the subtleties of it are what make it so special. Yeah. And absolutely add up to a sum that is greater than its parts. So that beautiful single breasted one button, peak or shawl or pale dinner jacket with a lovely, you know, evening trousers with the braiding with all the nice kind of satin details. And a bow tie that you've tied yourself that's black, the matches your faceings, all these little things and a proper dress shirt, I think, do create something that almost imperceptibly is so much more beautiful and so much more elegant and so much more noticeable. But it's so subtle. That's what makes it special. Yeah. So this is almost my kind of plea for any, any bloke who's thinking about really having a bit of fun with black tie. Just figure out your own personal way of doing the classic in the best possible way. Yeah. And paying attention to the details because it absolutely makes a difference in everyone in the room. They might not be able to put the finger on why, but they will notice it and they will sense it. Speaking of fashion, why do you think that people sort of rebel against it so much on the red carpet? That's a great question. Thank you. I try to get it's it's fashionable to rebel against things right. That's true. That is the nature of fashion is that, you know, you try new things and you experiment and sometimes you break things. And I'm sure there are a lot of there's a lot of a list, a lot of a list as and a lot of stylists that want to try and make a kind of a fashion statement. I also guess these things just depend on your point of view right. Personally, I really struggle with fashion statements like using black tie to make a fashion statement because it's it is something codified that's been around for over 100 years and, you know, mankind has had a hundred years to figure out what about it works and what doesn't works. Probably not going to improve on the formula at the BAFTAs. I always think the celebrities that that just sort of stick to the rules and execute them well tend to look the best. And there are very few of them that's a thing. I mean, let's say Gary Cooper. Yeah. For me is the greatest stress manable time. Right. Just look at him and black time. Just think you know what. Yeah, I'll do that. Do that. Yeah. There's there's no shortage of reference points for really great. And the other thing is, you know, if you there is I understand completely the the want to express personality through address code like black tie. But I think my personal take on that is the way to do it is with subtlety. Yeah. So enjoy and embrace the subtlety and the nuances of it. You don't need to turn up in a red jacket if everyone else is in the black or a midnight blue. Because especially if it ends up just looking like you've had close put on you quite by stylist. Yeah. Because if you do that, then there's no personality at all because you've just been told what to do. Yeah. It's also because it's fundamentally a dark suit. So it's as much about paying attention to proportion and kind of understanding what flatters you as it is, you know, understanding that I need to wear a certain kind or I should wear a certain kind of a pearl and I will gravitate towards these details. Yeah. You know, I struggle when you see a red carpet look that is is kind of deliberately playing with proportion because it is therefore by definition almost certainly not going to flatter. Yeah. I mean, I did a whole thing on the golden glows for the rake and, you know, everyone was sort of talking about how wonderful Jacob and Lordy is and his potato Vanessa, but God, it was back. And like there was there was, I mean, the the amount of excess material at the bottom of the trousers, you know, so it just. It was just it was just so much. And then long comes Chris Pine. Absolutely immaculate fully tailored look perfect. Nobody said a fucking word. You could argue and I would like to think, but then I would say this that actually you almost want someone, no one to say a word. Yeah. Because it's always a means you've got it right. Yeah. No news is good news as they say. I still think probably the best looking example of black tie that I've ever seen is a three piece and it's Harrison Ford in Indiana Jones, the temple of doom. Yes. Where he's wearing a white. Didn't you, Jacob? Yeah. Red carnation. Beautiful big sort of plump red carnation. Black waistcoat. Black trousers and was immaculate. Now it's Harrison Ford in some fact like we're good. But you know that that he what he did was as good if not better than what bond ever did. Yeah. Do you know, I mean, I agree with you. Obviously Humphrey Bogart in Kasper, so that's the one for me. And there's something quite interesting about that black tie because obviously it's it's a low buttoning double breasted white off white sort of tropical weather appropriate dinner jacket. Which I loosely reference the proportions of in this suit because I've always loved that jacket. It's been a really it's a really sort of seminal reference for me. But but he sort of spends that whole film somehow being quite disheveled. Yeah. And there's a there's a really lovely kind of tension in his personal style and the wearing of that jacket, which I love. And having an knowledge that Harrison Ford looks absolutely tremendous in the temple of doom. I can't get my head around a white dinner jacket. I've tried it. It's personally not for me. It looks it can look incredibly elegant. I think anyone who wants to do it do it. Have fun with it. Yeah. These things are to be enjoyed and encouraged. I just it's not it's I just always feel like a waiter in one. What about pocket hangages? Yes, nice to wear. I would say I've obviously got just a very simple little white silk in today. When in doubt do this. Yeah. I sometimes wear it like a handkeye that has a hint of color in it with black time. If everything else is monochrome. It is one place where if you really want to you can express a little bit of personality. But it can be too much. much quite easily. So I would say by all means, where one, you know, there's nothing in the kind of historical codes of black tie that says you can or can't wear one. Yeah. But keep it really simple. And if in doubt, simple little bit of white silk or a linen hanky, just a little hint of it on show, it's all you need to kind of tie the rest of it together. Smoking jackets. Yes. Great fun. Great fun. Everyone should enjoy. The whole idea behind it for anyone who's interested in I hope all of you listening or watching this podcast is that there was something called the rope to shop, which was basically dressing up. Big voluminous sort of over, you need to kind of like an indoor overcoat that just sort of threw on. And that's what you'd smoke in. And over time, especially when the lounge you started coming, they quickly moving to make these velvet versions. But initially, they'd be made to go over the top of your jacket. And the whole idea is that they would stop the smell of smoke. Yeah, the velvet would absorb the smoke notionally. Exactly. We saw his Royal Highness the Prince Wales wearing his the bafters. Yes. Not very well. How do you say such a thing? With respect to his Royal Highness. It didn't fit. But also, I think that I think that he needs to not wear single breasted anymore. Is it I confess because I've been in an in an absolute deadline hole for about two weeks. I didn't watch the bafters. Is he still wearing very, very skinny lapels? Yes. Because with the greatest of respect, if anyone is listening who can help with this, make the lapels wider. Make the cars far too slay. They do not flatter. It's not a fashion statement. It's a suit. It's all about proportion in the sense that if you've got lapels on a tooth then to make your head look bigger. I really hope that goes somewhere. I really want to get that message through to him. Your Royal Highness, you look fabulous. A lot of the time, please make your lapels wider. Yes. For the sake of the nation. If he came out looking like Anthony. Yeah, great. I think people would love it. Yes. I think, you know, and his father knows this very well. Yeah. I didn't think I'd come onto a podcast today and critique the style of Prince Wales. We do it with love. Yes, indeed. We do it with care. Yeah. Yeah. Please don't hang me as a traitor. Yes, this is an interloper. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're good at overthrowing kings. Yeah. Some sort of Serbian dissidents. Yeah. They need to know that you were dissidents. You were part of the. You were on the king side. We're very, very, very full of monarchy. Yeah. Spoken jackets. So, what I like, my thing with the smoking jacket is, should we not technically call it an after dinner jacket? In theory, yes, you should. Which is quite nice. Yes. Like an after eight minutes. Yeah. It is in theory an aftern jacket. I think that the practicality, because often these black turments are not held in people's houses at the time anymore. It's just become part of the kind of sartorial parlance of. And basically, how we. What we're saying is if you want to do it, do it, because they're great. Yeah. They're just a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah. Now, one controversial thing that we should discuss is weddings. Do it? Must we discuss this? Well, the thing is, Alex, is that I have edited copy of yours, which was pretty firm about not wearing black tie at weddings. It's an Americanism. If you're not. If it's not a dinner thing, then you know, a dinner seat. What did you add to your wedding? War this suit. You were black tidings. War black tie. Yeah. Is that why you didn't invite me to you? Yeah. Couldn't bear the ball of the tussing from the bass. So, me showing up in the morning seats. You are quite right. I have spent about 10 years as a. If not more as a style writer saying, I'm not terribly keen on the idea of black tie for a wedding. Now, before we dig into why you then chose to wear black tie for your wedding because I do want to delve into that. What was your initial objection to it? I really struggled what to decide to wear for my own wedding. I didn't want to wear morning dress. Oh, my morning dress to the races a couple of times a year. And it's great fun, but it is incredibly hot and incredibly uncomfortable. Yeah. I couldn't figure out what I wanted to wear as a suit suit. And then we picked a venue. And I think this is my big caveat that hopefully gets me out of this hole is we picked a venue that was an old Victorian musical. It was called the Black Tie Arms. Wilton's musical in East London. Faded plaster, you know, a working theatre. The nature of a very theatrical venue, but also a venue that had no natural light because you're in an enclosed auditorium. Yeah. Just made black tie make sense to me. My wife was very keen on the idea. And because I had really struggled to figure out what I actually wanted to wear, it just kind of made sense. So I am I suppose by dictionary definition a hypocrite. My objection is I think in America, they think black tie is the formal thing. Yeah. It's not. No. In fact, black tie isn't even the evening formal thing. No, white tie. It's traditionally called semi formal. Yeah. So my slightly snobby hat on sort of being like, ha ha, my colonial cousins don't know the difference. You know, there is that. But today in a world where we need we want to promote the idea of dressing better. We want to take the opportunity for somebody to invest in something nice that they get a lot of use out of. I would much prefer them a much more encouraging to get something like a really perfect lounge suit made than black time because they'll get loads of use out of it and they'll go a lot of love out of it. I can clearly agree with that. Whereas the suit, the the the black tie they'll hang it up and they may take it out once a year from there. But to they'll fall in love with this sort of lounge suit. It's a navy classic lounge suit that they went over and over again and they get to basically they they let it just they come and sink with it into some way and it sort of multi kind of finds it sort of. There's a symbiosis to some extent that happens between a suit and the wearer. Yeah. Which doesn't happen with something that you take out once a year or twice maybe. The other bit of advice I would offer is so much of our conversation today has been about not overdoing it with a fashion statement. Yeah. You absolutely don't want to look back on your photos in 20 years time and go why did I wear a fashion suit? Why did I wear something that was bright green or pink? Yeah totally. Just get a really really beautiful dark blue suit or something similar that's just going to look immaculate as a look as good when you show your kids or your nephews and nieces in 30 years time in the photos as it does on the day. So I can but I agree with all that advice you're quite right. I remain a hypocrite. I remain Tom Chamberlain and this has been the luxury dispatch. The podcast that explores the people, traditions and objects that shape the world of luxury. My thanks to Alex Feckovich for helping us navigate the enduring codes of Black tie and for reminding us that true elegance often lies in understanding the rules before deciding how closely to follow them and thank you to Swain for supporting this episode and they continue to commitment to crafting some of the finest accessories to accompany formal wear. If you've enjoyed today's episode please do like, subscribe and leave a comment. We read every one. Tell us your own experiences of Black tie, the traditions you hold dear, all the worlds of luxury you would like us to explore next. Thank you for listening and happy dressing.