Black Metal and Orthodox Christianity - A Talk with Haela Ravenna Hunt-Hendrix of Liturgy

[Music] Greetings listeners and welcome to the pop of apocalypse. My name is Matt Dillon and I'm the host and also a research associate here at the Center for Study of World Religions at Harvard Divinity School. The guest today is musician, philosopher and artist, Hela Ravanna Hunt Hendricks. Hela is probably best known as the lead singer and songwriter behind the band Liturgy. Liturgy launched in the mid-2000s and to date has put out six full records in 1 EP. Liturgy's music is really hard to describe in words, but its DNA as an American metal band, particularly a black metal band, is evident even as they began to evolve and incorporate more electronic, classical, even sort of operatic elements. Like a previous guest on the show, Trace Bruins, Hela's interests in music and religion are deeply esoteric. On the discursive side, she has spent about a decade now articulating her own system which she calls Transcendental Cavalah. While that system is obviously informed by Jewish, Christian and Thilemic approaches to Cavalah, the result is wholly unique. It is dizzying, it is intricate as any other system of Cavalah, so rather than spend 50 minutes trying to digest it, I am going to direct listeners to the show notes where they can find Hela's blog and video lectures that go into great detail about the system, and of course we talk about it in the interview. And even more fortunately, she is currently writing Transcendental Cavalah up as a book, which is supposed to be out later this year, which we should all look forward to. With Liturgy, Hela brings these ideas into musical form. The three most recent records all illustrate a pillar of her Cavalah. So there's H.A.Q.Q or Hock is the God record, origins of the Alamonis, which is a Cosmogony record and also sort of an opera, and 93696 is the eschatology record. To be sure, one can enjoy these records without any exposure or understanding of Hela's philosophy. But for those who have learned Transcendental Cavalah or made an effort to do so, you can find a different point of entry into the ideas, one that gives form and substance and feeling to what is otherwise lexical and conceptual. Between her philosophy, music and sculpture, Hela is leaving behind a body of work that can be enjoyed by fans, and also studies as an uvra of contemporary esotericism. Finally, I just want to note how refreshing and interesting it is to explore the work of a living esoteric philosopher and artist who is also a traditional Christian. As we discuss in the interview, Hela is a lifelong Christian who has most recently, over the last year and a half or so, found themselves in the Greek Orthodox Church. And we discussed why it is that mental musicians in particular seem to be finding themselves into the Greek Orthodox phase. But to pull back as a scholar of the esoteric and of popular culture is really interesting and important to be able to study and look at people like Hela. Because the history of Western esotericism and I'm very much emphasizing Western here has this close relationship with Christianity not just in heretical forms but in traditional forms. And while much of what we call contemporary esotericism has migrated out of those traditional phase, not all. And so one of the things that makes Hela's uvra so enticing and so interesting is that it has all these deep resonances to some of the more notable historical figures who were able to do something really rich and deep in esoteric while maintaining these traditional religious identities. And with that, let's welcome to the show, Hela Ravenna, Hunt Hendrix. So it is my great honor to welcome to the show, Hela Ravenna, Hunt Hendrix, from the band Litergy, musician, artist, philosopher. So Hela, how are you doing today? We're doing great, thanks, how are you? I'm quite well, quite well. So I start all these just exactly the same way with same question because I think it's a good frame because we are literally in the shadow of Harvard Divinity School. So what was your exposure to religion like growing up? Did you have a sort of traditional or mainline background where you raised atheists? Was it somewhere in between what was what was that like for you? Yeah, it was a little fragmentary. Like I would say my main, I mainly grew up in New York and didn't go to church much as a kid except I had some access to Southern evangelical Christianity like family in the south and so so during the summers like I have a kind of Catholic Southern Baptist church is basically and I even went like a Christian summer camp and but my main environment I would say was was not really Christian and then like we would sometimes go to like kind of multi-denominational several Protestant churches like I actually was maybe I said this before maybe you know that's it like I was actually baptized by the United Church of Christ in Los Alamos in New Mexico which is the they were like the chaplain of the Manhattan project. Holy smokes. It started by the Manhattan Project and my family happened to live in New Mexico for just a couple years and so I was baptized by this Manhattan Project Church which is kind of interesting. So you got the radiation there like hand down that's funny. Yeah. Oh cool okay all right I did not know that that's fun and so as you're growing up did you start playing music really early and where you classically trained growing up or did that come later. Yeah very early I was extremely passionate about playing guitar especially for like a long time remember like I don't even really have any memories of not not being obsessed with guitar and like MTV and and I did take some piano like there was a classical I kind of had to take piano lessons in order to play guitar and so yeah I really love rock music and metal from a very early age like I think like Marilyn Manson and the corn and this kind of thing and that was actually kind of because that was even before like I did have a pretty strong experience at this one Christian summer camp I mentioned in the summer and like I remember there was a moment where like from a very early age I've felt myself in a position like the the antagonism kind of between sort of like New York secular atheism and kind of Southern religion or something like that when like I remember like I went to the summer camp and like I was like a Marilyn Manson fan reading like Nietzsche and Mark and stuff like that and but then also like like I was already quite passionate about Christianity as well and and was sort of talked about that against at school and like I always just kind of had a sense that like there was this kind of um I don't know I guess just a sense of like the schism the religious schism like in the United States or something and it just kind of like knowing people on either side of this divide that just both think that one another is like completely insane and kind of being like caught caught between those two currents and and that that tension has really been with me ever since very interesting and so the how to face this um so when you were a Manson fan was that sort of mechanical animals and or were you like an anti-crispy superstar type deep into that record yeah starting with fantasy with star I mean I'm actually starting with uh yeah I guess Andrew has superstar yeah sorry that well you asked specifically I speak to it because so much of what that record was about was against this sort of southern Baptist sort of evangelical form of Christianity so it's interesting that that would have hit uh considering the schism that you were straddling right And it also, not just him, but a lot of metal, it gets into black metal. It has that kind of gravitas, even though it's in a lot of cases very aviably anti-Christian. It has this religious pathos that is sort of conveying, like it's drinking from the same stream as what religion often drinks from or whatever. And so it's kind of its own religion in a way. Well, yeah. So you started reading sort of Marx and Nietzsche. Was that why when you went to Columbia, you said it'd become a philosophy majoring? Was that you'd already caught that bug and wanted to explore that? Did you sort of grow into that major over time? Yeah. Technically, I grew into philosophy as the major though, if it wasn't that it would have been like anthropology or something. Like I was already by high school, I was very passionate about philosophy, even like delusing with heart. I already owned anti-Anappist before going to college. I really wanted to study, I wanted to major in delusing with heart. And then kind of found out that you can't major in them in an American philosophy department. So I was sort of taking, like I took, like I studied Lecon. My first year in Lecon, I studied Lecon in the comparative literature department. You find the cognitive philosophers in those kind of other departments. And so I was just kind of like, oh, maybe it'll be anthropology or sociology or comparative literature. But then I ended up taking more history of philosophy classes and getting really interested in Aristotle, especially actually. And kind of, anyway, I kind of drifted into doing an actual philosophy major and doing a lot more analytic philosophy than I had planned on. Because I really enjoyed like symbolic logic and, like I was into computers as a kid. So like I also, or not really as a kid, but in high school. That could have been like I was more encouraged in computer science actually than in any other discipline, like my grades and stuff. And like English and philosophy and that kind of thing were like a little chopper, but like coding, I was really good at. But I, I don't know, yeah, but I just didn't, I don't know, I didn't want to spend my life that way. Fair enough. Yeah. Okay. And what was it that drew you, because you can sense the listen, guitar, you over your thought. But what is it that drew you to them as thinkers? Like what was it that felt so generative and productive? Because that is for those in the audience who have no red, not easy reads. It's very complex is difficult to sliconous. So what was it that sort of allured you to them? Yeah, I mean, especially like back in high school, you know, you look back just like what, like, because clearly I didn't understand them, you know, like. But you know, it's like they, I mean, what I like in them is this like synthesis of Marx and Freud, right? You know, what what there's kind of this. That's a strong sort of project of like becoming unrepressed, you know, and, but like dealing with sort of psychic structures and, and political structures at the same time. And, you know, I, I don't know, I just felt this really powerful sense of urgency as like a teenager that like something needed to change. I don't know, you know, and, and so like I was, I think like social norms weren't working very well for me, you know, man, but I wasn't like rebelling against them wasn't working that well for either, you know, and so like there was just this sort of. I was just very interested in religion and philosophy and somehow delusing with harry just seemed to have this like edge to them, you know, and, and there was such a wealth of references in the work that like you could sort of. You can learn, you learn the entire history of philosophy, like, only the entire intellectual history of the world, you know, if you actually try to start all one references and, and their work because it's so, so lucid, but they just kind of seem to have this like. Just like sense sense of vision that was like, you know, in the most general sense just sort of contain like a sincere desire for like justice, but that one was also very like free. And yeah, so I knew I liked that wonderful. And you were right, but the you find them, definitely not an American philosophy departments, but find the weird folk go into comparative literature go into religious studies, we have a bunch of delusing, guitar, you people like it's. They're very, very productive for us. So after Columbia you're in Brooklyn right so you're sort of part of this music DIY sort of scene down there and I came across something you just re recorded and released last year immortal life. So that early early liturgy, really struck me because part of what pop apocalypse is about is. You know, the ways in which the mystical and esoteric go into popular culture, but then there's the other side of that equation, which is how these popular culture products can. Insight sort of mystical insights or experiences and came across that you wrote immortal life. After a mystical experience while listening back and forth between loveless and then it was strength and anger right. Yeah, so could you speak to that that is very it's a very interesting sort of pair of records, but it's also like how does it what was that experience like and how did it sort of generate or was an origin point for what liturgy became. Yeah, yeah, it was it was a very intense experience for me like I was still in college when I wrote a mortal life. I was so I had discovered screamo in high school, you know that that was sort of the first like music scene. And then like my interest in music was really mediated by, you know, the music industry, I guess, you know, like things like a fix when or you know, and then I began finding bands that were a little more independent like God speech of black emperor maybe. But then like I'd be in the like I really connected to screamo and math rock and art rock. Also kind of during high school and then found found people that were playing music who were my age or like it was like a lot of those bands like like a band like slings like they like they made their album when they were 15 or something, you know, and it was like, oh, this is. You know, this like like shows, I don't know, screamo shows were just so cathartic for me, I guess, you know, it's like it's very different from like going to like a concert at an arena, you know, it was sort of like you know, basement and like the show is just really. Kind of violence, but it's really emotive there's a lot of like emotional release and so anyway, I was playing. I had a couple of yeah, kind of screamo and hardcore bands that I was playing in during college. But and I had discovered black metal, which was not really like there wasn't really wide acceptance of black metal in my social world, you know, it seems something like very far away. And the yeah, this this moments kind of of arriving at the first beat was. It was like the sense of like rhythm and of puncturing through the surface of time or something like that. It was like a. Like there's my bloody Valentine tracks that are kind of ambience, but if you turn them up really loud, it's kind of like the rhythm is sort of exiting the like tempo meter or whatever. And and so I just kind of have this. I'm not quite finding the right word for it. right now. Okay. Yeah, no, I mean, mysticism is ineffable. Like that's literally, you know, one of the sort of standard tropes. But no, I hadn't heard the part where the the burst beat came from or was related to that particular experience. So that's really interesting. Because that you ended up, as I recall, you submitted the paper, what is it, transcendental black metal to that black metal symposium in 2009. And just as sort of set the table, this was like a heavy hitter like symposium in so far as black metal can have a heavy hitter sort of conference, right, with Eugene Tacker and people like that there. So in burst beat is very much part of that. But just for those who are unaware, what was the sort of thesis behind transcendental black metal that particular paper? Yeah, I mean, I feel like like thesis, like I could say what the thesis is, but in a lot of ways there was there was much more like a tone to it than a thesis. I mean, it actually had been the ideas in that text came from a failed thesis on Nietzsche's philosophy of the will to power that I had originally planned for right as my thesis for college. And like especially I was sort of using deluses reading of Nietzsche, like there's this one text that delused the votes to Nietzsche. Basically about the play of active force and reactive force. And that reactive force is this sort of folding back of desire on itself. And then there's kind of you know, like active force is rooted in the kind of singularity and adjoining an affirmation. And I mapped, I wanted to sort of recast black metal in a transcendentalist vein, you know, as part of the effort was sort of established like an American black metal at the time. I don't really talk about this much anymore. But like that it was sort of, because black metal tends to be very regional, you know, there's like there's like Polish black metal and Russian black metal and it's all very sort of like a like a pose to the universalism I guess of of rock music in general. And if that makes any sense, no it does. Yeah. And but there had never been an American black metal at this time. And so sort of coming out of, you know, reading, because of Emerson fans as well. So like reading, reading Nietzsche via Emerson as an American as someone sort of from the Northeast, you know, it was like, well, maybe like the sort of like the heritage of like you know, the United States with like Ornette Coleman and like Jazz and this kind of thing. Good sort of be an opportunity to generate a kind of black metal that is really about sort of creative becoming as well as like joy and love basically. And that that would kind of also be like what it says in the text is that that that would also kind of be the end of the history of metal. You know, that it was sort of because it was also a vision of a kind of new synthesis of like music, religion and philosophy together. And that sort of metal had sort of reached its end point through the blast beat, which is the kind of fastest possible ordinary rock drum beat. And that the the burst beat would sort of like sort of go through the void of sort of like the infinite horizon of acceleration characterized by the last beat and sort of arrive on the other side with a more like breathing version of time that's actually closer to the temporality of classical music. So like the sermon drawn of like Wagner or something like that where rhythm is being experienced as he's like waves. So you talk about the burst beat gets brought up in that in transcendental black metal in that paper. But the sort of second technique that you have described as being sort of unique to liturgy is glitching or general tremolo. I've won I forget if that was brought up in the transcendental black metal paper. It's just not on the top of my mind if it was or not. But could you just grab that one as well? Like what is happening with glitching? And particularly it's not just sort of like a sort of compositional fun thing like this has a sort of philosophy behind it like it's intended to do something. So like what is it the glitching intensity? Yeah so the general tremolo technique is yeah yeah it wasn't discussed in that text. It really didn't come up until until after the reception of liturgy. So because all like that that original text you know was sort of before liturgy kind of began to really have a career like people started responding to liturgy after that. And and then it became a very controversial band actually. And so general tremolo is generally it's the idea of it is sort of extending the the tar technique of tremolo which is just picking on your right hand really fast sort of so extending that from which and it's like used especially in in black metal and among among types of metal. But I mean tremolo is also like if you play like a violin it's similar to vibrato basically like that. You kind of also like the volume. That that could be considered as a kind of universal principle that applies not just to one instrument but is kind of like it sort of kind of range it with cascades of different instruments like you know Glockenspiel or other other acoustic instruments can kind of carry on the tremolo. And then also then extending it to the recording itself and actually editing and glitching it out. And it's but it's it's basically kind of making contact with a substrate of non-being where where they're where the categories the categories that like sort of distinguish anything from anything else are suspended during that time. Beautifully put thank you. Excellent. Okay so you you mentioned how the liturgy sort of starts to take off for like a better trauma after yeah sorry I got to mention this part and and and then also extending that into the the the sort of praxis of demand itself right so sort of like you know that that that that there's a tremolo in just the the feedback of you know having an idea about genre you know that then is like perhaps perplexing to like the identity of a fan and so so yeah so so that like it's not the general tremolo it like it's it's truly truly beyond any category including the distinction between sort of the the career of the musician and the music and the music's form and structure. Excellent. Oh no that's very important in addenda. So before I interview anybody I sort of start talking with my friends who are interested in their their particular material and you know all the all the metalheads known liturgy and like have a background with them but one of the things that surprised a lot of people who don't follow your your YouTube is that you are like a very sort of deep outspoken or I don't want to say outspoken but like you're you're very vocal about your Christianity. So what was the what was it that sort of I guess how it appraises what was your faith journey like right so to sort of go from this south Baptist adjacent or straddling that in the atheist world some New York you go through early liturgy like how does one become how did you become a Christian? Yeah um yeah I mean this is and in a way this is much more what's on my mind currently you know than the musical techniques and stuff because like that that stuff is all you know ideas from you know over 10 years ago or whatever and like which I still use and care about, but like, Christianity. And so, I mean, I, you might not be aware of this. I mean, my project right now is a text on Trans-Zedokabala, right? I'm sort of doing a finaly kind of working to sort of synthesize my ideas on this, but. I mean, during the era that we're talking about, and I was developing these other ideas, I was, like, I was always kind of, like, I had a certain passion for Christianity and then also a passion for, as I already mentioned, you know, the Nietzsche and Marxist sort of access, which felt that odds with one another. And, but, and the first maybe Christian texts that I really read were not theological as much as, like, apologetics texts by like, like, Chester 10 and CS Lewis and people like that. And, like, I remember, like, I've always kind of had the sense, I mean, the bands called Dator G, right? So, like, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, what, that, what was happening during these musical performances was, like, I've sort of, I've always had a very palpable sense of music as a sacred right. But, like, you know, but like Christianity, you know, there's just this sort of love in Christianity that is a little bit different than it's something that you could rock concert. You know, like, I kind of, like, warmth and forgiveness. And so, my journey, like, into, like, surely as a Christian, I think, passed through those apologetics texts, I would attend, I began like attending, like, at a physical church. And I, but then really upon finding, once I discovered, like, like, Bulgokav especially, I began to see that there was a lot of, you know, fairly contemporary Christian theology that was responding to a lot of the questions that, like, Mark's and Neat Show were responding to as well. And that, I don't know, the, the, like, Christianity is, like, a sort of a serious philosophical enterprise and not, not, not, not just, like, the distinction between, like, faith and reason that people take for granted in modern times is, like, a bit of, like, a social construct, I think. So, yeah, I don't know. I didn't really trace a journey there exactly, but, and with, with Bulgokov was, you spoke to that it's, you know, high level philosophy and was responding to a lot of the same things that these other thinkers you were interested in, dead. Did you have, I see Sophia in sociology sort of popping up in a lot of your writings as well? So, what was it about that that really grabbed you? - Yeah, well, yeah, okay, okay. So, I guess, like, earlier on, okay, so, running around, like, I was very interested in, like, the sort of, right, so this was Trans-Natal Black Metal, the sort of American Black Metal tradition. I was connecting it to, like, really, like, like, like, the, like, the shakers or whatever, right? Sort of, like, like, like, ecstatic, ecstatic American religion was kind of more what I was interested in at that time, you know, Pentecostalism, speaking in tongues, you know, like, is that really famous, you know, Dan Graham work, you know, rock my religion about sort of connecting, connecting, like, DIY punk to the lineage of sort of, like, kind of anti-theological Christian worship that was sort of, you know, coming out of these, like, fairly new churches in, you know, like, 19th, 20th century or whatever. And, you know, Christianity, most, like, theological Christianity is, has no femininity in it really, you know, I mean, there's, like, obviously, the Catholics have a Mary, but the divine feminine was something that is kind of, like, seemed to be lacking in Christian theology that I know, you know, and, you know, stemming from a quietness and this kind of thing. And, you know, I mean, the idea of Sophia, Sophia, I mean, everyone who's, Sophia even is, but like, it's, you know, Sophia is, a Boga Cove takes it most directly from Jacob Bum, Bummer, having an open asset, who is also a huge influence on Hagle and Shelling, and then he himself really takes it from, like, the Zohar, you know, and, what Sophia kind of feels like within Christianity is, like, a reentry of the divine feminine into the Godhead. And, like, with Hagle and Shelling, like, that function that she plays, it kind of is in there in German idealism and in Nietzsche and Marx, without being named as such. And what's so amazing about Boga Cove's project is that it sort of unifies that the sort of, like, not sure, and not sure, on this kind of, I'm like, divine temporality of sort of praxis, basically, you know, sort of, like, the shirt outside of the church or, you know, the, the kingdom of heaven on earth, connecting that infimum form to, like, actual Christian theology. So, like, so it's like giving her a place as like, almost a fourth hypothesis in the Trinity or has the summation of the Trinity or like, his, his, his, his account of this pretty Byzantine, like, it has Sophia has all these different sort of faces, but yeah. I was actually not that it needs to, you needed to have crossed pass with them. But I was surprised just because of the orthodox component of what you do, and that you and Trace Bruins had never corresponded. So I, he's the last person I interviewed or two people ago, and liturgy came up in that interview. So I was like, this is, it's a really interesting thing to me, because there's more and more of this movement into orthodoxy coming out of metal. And I'm like, what, there's something here, like, I don't know what it is yet, but I really want to like start to unpack it and figure out what's going on, because it is, it is something. Something I've been thinking about a lot, and sometimes for sure. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I, I remember back. So the original member, the original members of sleep, right? So one of, I think the first drummer ended up leaving the band to end up going into orthodoxy, right? And you know, a lot of forgetting his name right now, the basis who ended up doing home, like that stuff's filled with orthodox imagery and like tonality, it's, there's something going on. Yeah, yeah, I knew, yeah, I knew someone in home with orthodox. Yeah, I mean, you know, I like, like, I encountered orthodoxy relatively recently, like, I mean, I'm an orthodox Christian. Like I, I, I converted. I was a catacumid for a couple of years and like, like, like, I sing in the choir at my church, like, like, I get very seriously. And, um, yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, for me, it's partly the, the theological lineage, you know, it's, it's sort of like, and like, it's a whole alternative history to the kind of Western history of the church. That there is so much more rooted in sort of beauty and glory and, and things like this. Um, and like, doesn't have like a witchfrile's, you know, in its history. That's good. And I mean, I think it's a lot like, I think that there's a lot that was part of Christianity that ended up being kind of stamped out in the West that was then kind of like, picked up again in the Lima really, you know, and that's connected to metal. And so, uh, you know, I think that for me anyway, it was like, wait a second, this was already in Christianity, like, um, and, and kind of the Eastern version. Um, but yeah, it's also just like a gritty or like a, just a gritty or aesthetic in a way. Um, but yeah, are you talking with more broadly or more specifically, like icons, right? The, the sort of like two dimension that opens you up into the third dimension. Also, like the, the methods of innovating them too, like that social touching, you know, like, like an equal arts church, like you, you, you kiss the icons, you know, like that there's, there's, and like, you know, um, um, there's, I think there's a practice of veneration. that is just generally more of an aesthetic and like haptic experience, which which I get a lot of satisfaction out of. That's really well put. There's also the Theosis part. That's what I was trying to get to. Right. Right. Just that was a huge loss in the Western Church to sort of like to just get put that to the side. And I also because I'm like, and most of my work ended up being on these sort of nonstick texts. So much of what people were responding to in the Nakamadi ended up through different tributaries ended up going back in through monasticism and through Theosis. Right. Like the this sort of like desire to transform this desire to become like God. And so it doesn't shock me that there's this sort of movement towards, hey, this exists, but we also don't have to reinvent it now. Right. There's this whole tradition here. And we can belong to it and like go back and read theologians for hundreds of thousands of years. Right. That, you know, a couple thousand years. Rather than try and restart something, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And and then on top of like, I also feel like it's an improvement on really a food, which is kind of a strong word, but like there's something healthy in my view or experience and then also having still like having a dogmatic structure there too, you know, like that it's not just that it happens to already have been in the church, but it's also like, because the thing with the way that narcissism or just general general, the general reception of all kinds of romanticism and narcissism and Kabbalah and Westernistic terrorism is that theosis turns into like a kind of like inflation, I guess or whatever. You know, it's like, oh, I am God, you know, and then it becomes kind of like maybe destructive or something or you know, like you kind of lose the threat, you know. And so it's like having like a kernel of God within you that you can sort of cherish, but like still you're still kind of under the veil. I'm having a relationship to a public liturgy and still there being some kind of like a non individual aspect to it. Seems like a nice balance to me. This feels like a not just a good time, but before we proceed, we sort of need to talk about what is transcendental Kabbalah for you. And of course, this is like a huge topic. Like we have you have many videos where you discuss different sort of dimensions and aspects of it. And we'll definitely link to those in the show notes. But before we sort of dive in and start to interpret some of the records through it, just what is a sort of encapsulation of what you're after with transcendental Kabbalah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, any system of Kabbalah is difficult to summarize for sure. I mean, I guess for starters, I should just say that like, I've been developing it more recently actually. Like this is my current number one focus is crystallizing it. And like transcendental Kabbalah, it's a specific system of Kabbalah that is different from but usedfully compared to, you know, lorianic Kabbalah or Hermetic Kabbalah as practiced by the Golden Dawn or there's like different versions of Kabbalah within Palema. And so like it's a system of like 32 paths that use like the Hebrew letters arranged with, you know, Tensafira and as correspondences with astrology and tarot. And so it is a system of Kabbalah. It is, I think the strongest influence is meditations on the tarot. Are you familiar with this text? So like it emphasizes, I mean, not to get too into it emphasizes water over fire. And in a way that is Christian. So it's like in Western esotericism. So, okay, I mean, I mean, this is like so Christian Kabbalah was born during the Renaissance, right? You know, you have sort of Pico, Agrippa, Royklin, right? They're incorporating sort of Jewish Kabbalah from the past couple hundred years into Christianity that happens simultaneously with the Rajiv Protestantism pretty much as well as then kind of being, you know, people often say that the groundwork for the birth of modern science and modern capitalism, where the techniques of Kabbalah, like including just like methods of accounting, methods of conducting experiments, you know, methods of sort of looking for electricity kind of start like working really well. And then the idea is that in modern secularism, you know, the religious trappings kind of get cast away, then it kind of just becomes modern society, right? So like Christian Kabbalah is kind of like an advancing mediator of modern secularism. And something I'm really interested in with President of Kabbalah is in attempts to I guess like recover Christian Kabbalah. Oh yeah, and then as a terrorism sort of turns into this like countercultural thing in that context, you know, you have sort of second, you know, modern secularism and then as a terrorism becomes countercultural, it becomes associated with, you know, first kind of like the romantics, you know, the romantics who were part of the Golden Dawn and then the beats and then rock music, like that's where esotericism goes and like, you know, according to the fallicism a lot of that was sinful and then and then in modern secularism it gets sort of taken as either like evil in some way or just kind of crazy, you know, it's in the shadows. And so Transnokabala is an effort to sort of I guess restore restore the connection between Kabbalah and Christianity and then that kind of being an alternative to the mainstream horizon of secularism like and to also incorporate sort of post-structuralism and critical theory into it as well. So yeah, I don't know, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm being a little bit but it's like no, so this podcast is where we can get as deep in the weeds as you want to. Like I love the weeds, give me more weeds like we can just go around in the weeds for a while. No, that's wonderfully, but now I'm very excited that you're sort of synthesizing and putting these ideas down in a book because the it's nice to go through the the substack in the videos, but it will be nice to have in and I think can I ask how when you expect that to be out in the world? It's yeah, it's supposed to be in it's supposed to be the end of this year. Okay, wonderful. I'm seeing it with a repeater, which is like a sort of kind of critical theory philosophy press. Wonderful. So one of the ways to start parsing and get and sort of like square off parts of the weeds might be to go with the get into there actually let's let's back up a little bit. So one of the things that I've heard you say before and I think is really, really interesting is that transcendental Kabbalah is quote a speculative tool for attempting to become a halogenic soul over time. All right, so what does that mean? And I know you you can talk about the sort of three vibrations of soul. I think that's that's also super interesting, but the way that idea feeds into your music is so important. So if you could unpack that would be great. Sure, yeah, I mean, and yeah, and and and the particular structure of the tree of life of transcendental Kabbalah is important in this. I mean, just generally speaking, just to make sure I'm sort of saying what's not the weeds. You know, that like a system of esotericism hopefully is used to sort of attain theosis, right? Like, it's used to sort of grow in maturity and become sort of a self-actualized being capable of generating a harmony and flourishing around yourself. And so, you know, any, any religious practice is hopefully doing that. And that, you know, in our current civilization, we don't really have structures that are useful for that, you know, like, because people don't believe in churches and like therapy is sort of kind of sign up sometimes, you know, like, and so there's like a system of grades, you know, with each, with each of you and like basically, the two main levels are just, you know, one that has more to do with individuation of sort of becoming capable of having a dynamic relationship to your own unconscious and to be able to sort of create on your own terms, you know, in a way that isn't subordinated to anyone else's aims for you, you know, so sort of attain a kind of freedom on the more secular humanist plan and that that is, but then there's another type of freedom, which isn't necessarily, in a way, it's higher, but they're really just two different things. And I find that a lot of times people fused it too much. Then there's one that is more of a, the literal awakening where, where, like, there's an actual experience of God, you know, and that you're sort of feel, you know, connected to the divine and perhaps are able to formulate you know, to exist in a kind of prophetic mode or something like that, to be able to sort of formulate a vision for how the world should be or something. And, and like, that those are kind of, and I associate, so in, I mean, to again do get to that explaining it, like, I associate the first of those not, so Tippereth is usually the sort of like central, like it's like a central sphere in like in the tree, you know, like everything is about Tippereth. And I think that there is not just one, that there's an essential spirit that like that you soared in Tippereth, you sowed as the sun and Tippereth is mercury actually and that there are two different spheres altogether. And so like, and that the self-actualization that comes with creation is a different, is a different thing from the self-actualization that comes from religious practice and that, and that like, they need to be distinguished and then sort of put in, put in relation with one another and instead of being fused. So that's a good thesis of mine. Interesting. So how, where we're just hanging out in weeds, but how does this relate to a metaparacharesis for you? Because it's interesting for me to hear this because there's this sort of resonance between your, I don't want to say your, but the sort of threefold artistic approach or mask of the infinite that comes from philosophy, drama, and music, right? And then this is, this has a certain trinitarian about, but so how does that relate to this, this, what you just described, which is the don't confuse or keep separate, but then relate the, the religious impulse or coming to God and then the creative part. Right. So, okay. So, yeah, metaparacharesis. So, I mean, so paracharesis is the life of a Godhead, right? So, like, you know, that the trinity is kind of, you know, dancing around itself, it's sort of like, that the person's trinity are in, sort of, enjoying one another and that, it kind of what generates the world in a way. And so, the, and then, but then there's this sort of eternal trinity and then this economic trinity in the world, what sort of God has progressively been revealed. And my kind of, and yeah, but this is maybe one of the more singular aspects of my, like more like, like a thesis of mine that you wouldn't find anywhere else, is that I'm sort of mapping specifically music drama and philosophy onto the three persons of the economic trinity. And so, you can, like, let's say you attain a kind of self realization in a music practice. That is, you know, that that's getting to a certain level. That's getting to like the like the yassad level basically. But that then, like, what I meant, tempting to do by creating the system is to, you know, individually create a body of work in music and in philosophy and in art, that each of them stands on its own terms in the world in which they belong. Right. So they're related to their own imminent horizon as, as, you know, canonizable practices on, on the humanist plane. So I'm kind of playing myself at some of the table a bit off. But, um, and, but that then, then there's this kind of higher field where you can think about ways of relating those three to one another, uh, to be, um, to be like a world of its own and sort of turning it into like a mini religion kind of, right. So, so, so like, um, so, so, so for example, um, putting them together, like, like my big project of executing medical parachlorosis, uh, has as a. Cor origin of the alimony, so just my opera. And so it's like that, um, you know, the, the story of the opera is the kind of aesthetic core of system philosophy. Um, the system of philosophy, which, which, you know, any system of philosophy kind of needs, the aesthetic core, now, like, like played on needs, played as cave, uh, you, you, you have to fall into narrative at some point. Um, you know, philosophy generates, you know, techniques and musical composition. And then there are, um, and then the story and the ideas are embedded in a musical work that is then, uh, transmitted into the world. And sort of gain is momentum on its own terms, uh, because of the music, you know, so, so, so it's not, so it's not in a silo. Um, um, like it's not in a silo where it's sort of within the logic in any one particular discursive sphere in the world. Um, it's, it's like, uh, because music is special in this way kind of work, because like people just get addicted to music, you know, it's like, you love music for no reason, you know, not, not, not, not because of the institution. Um, I mean, kind of that's a bit of a generalization, but more, more so than, um, more so than a lot of the arts and, and, and, and, and then, and then, within from that, that becomes sort of a window into, you know, people making contact with. Lineages of philosophy and art that they never would have otherwise, uh, you know, because of the music. So like, that's, um, so like that's one way of structure, letting music trauma and philosophy. I have four. It's, uh, that there's four different sort of ways of putting them together. Um, that. Um, like, like, four different, I guess, parameters along which they are, uh, they're connected that, that like bring the aesthetic. Um, beyond beyond the current, like, silo of art under, under like the capitalist regime, I guess. Yeah. Um, wonderful. Um, okay. And so origin is also sort of the, the cosmogony record, right? So I think about these hawk is like the god record origin is the cosmogony record in 93. I always do this wrong six, nine six is the. So actually this is going to go sideways for a second, but it's such an important sideways point. So the Blake is like this figure that seems to be suffusing a lot of what's happening here. And I know he goes back to the the apocalypse of decumenism, but in, you know, some of the names are even in sort of your diagrams start to go so like, what is Blake for you? Like, why, how is he informed so much of what is coming out of your work now? Yeah. Yeah, I've definitely always felt a strong connection to Blake. And actually person captured him in call it like I took a course on Blake. And I think I mean, I don't, I don't really pay as much attention to Blake now to be honest, but like, I think I had never until I encountered Blake, I had never sort of encountered like an artist who just like was a prophet, you know, basically, you know, and like, like in his body of work, you know, like, you know, Blake is a very canonized artist, you know, it's like, like, like, like you take a course on Blake and it's like you sort of, you're mostly analyzing, you know, his, his relationship to like romanticism or like his use of like form and his, you know, like visual work or whatever. But like, you know, I mean, he just sort of saw himself as, you know, commuting with the divine and sort of, you know, using art as an instrumental prophecy and, and like, I remember just realizing how elaborate his, you know, sort of mytho poetic system was, and just being really captivated by, you know, and so, so his, one of his poems Milton is the one from which I derived. Yeah, I have a couple of names from Blake that just I have felt sort of needed to be preserved, you know, one of them is Olalon, which is sort of his, his divine feminine, and then the other is your reason, which is sort of his like, you know, I guess it's kind of evil demure or whatever, like sort of where his, you know, got a reason that's supposed to be over time and I, anyway, I get into how exactly I use those those, those figures, I kind of, I kind of reinterpret them, I mean, for like for me, Olalon, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, okay, totally into it with that, but, yeah, so I mean, I just found, I just always really resonated with his way of working. And so I think as I've gotten closer, you know, as I've become more orthodox in my Christianity, I feel a little bit less connected to Blake in a way, maybe, like, I sort of see him as a hair tick in a way. But, but, but with a lot of appreciation, nevertheless. Interesting. So the, the, there's a lot of significance to origin of the Elanoni, so we just, to all think on that record, but one of the most sort of pronounced is it was the first record that came out after you had basically announced that your trans. And so the thing that I'm curious to you impact, how did that relate to this sort of evolving system of transcendental couple, right? Like is, were these decision or not decision, but this discovery, like sort of part of that, or was it just sort of a completely separate terrain for you? Yeah, I've never been sure like what the relationship between my gender and the religious art thing is, you know, because it's like, I know, like there's, there's a certain like, you know, divine androgyny or something that tends to go along with people like me or something. And, yeah, I mean, I saw Adam Cadmone plays this, this role like in some of your thought, I'm like, okay, this is, this is all tracks, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, tracks. And, you know, I mean, the way that like, you know, the trans like movement, you know, conceives of gender is like a little different from that. And like, yeah, you know, it's like, you know, not much of what I do, I mean, not much of what anyone does is such a conscious choice. But, yeah, certainly there was some way in which my gender transition was kind of, you know, connected to that moment of creation. And, and I think that there is, you know, there is something, yeah, and it has something to do with Adam, with Adam Cadmone, you know, or, or, you know, or the, or the, or the hermetic God or something like that. Yeah. All right, so this seems like a good time to talk about 936, 936, the sort of weapon record or eschatology record. First off, just for the best majority of people who are unfamiliar with the numerology part, what, where does the title come from? Right. Um, I mean, in some ways, I would say I'm not sure, but I mean, what, what I generally say is that the title 93696, it's a, like, like it's the number of, of like the vision of a new eon. There are within in, I probably flima a couple of times, you know, I'm not a practitioner of flima, but like that, um, that the current 93 and the, the, the, the, uh, 696 current of the, of, of match cabala. It's a numb, it's the number of a vision of the kingdom of heaven. Um, and, uh, and it sign, and it signifies a signifies a kind of Christianized esotericism, and a vision of heaven. Uh, and so as I understand it, please do feel free to correct me. Um, your sort of eschatology, we might, if we're just going to put a, a flag on it, would be post millennial in the sense that there, there seems to be a very, uh, there's a human role in this, right in the bringing forth of heaven or kingdom of heaven and bringing it down to earth. So this is going to be like one of the biggest questions that you'll ever be asked. Um, but what is it that, uh, how is it that humans are playing an active role in redeeming, right, the earth to have a become a kingdom of heaven. Yeah, I mean, you know, there's only so much an artist can really do for sure. Um, the, the idea is that it is a city named, named, named, hyaligan. And the city's name is also, Sam, the sovereign hierarchical emancipatory individuation, municipality, let's say acronym. Uh, and then it is a world that is governed by four new laws, kind of that you, you compare to like, um, like freedom, liberty, equality, you know, that like that there's an eon where sort of those are the ideals. And in the sort of new eon, it's sovereignty hierarchy emancipation individuation. Um, and basically, I'm most concise way of putting it is that whatever it is that's happening in our, um, like amazingly crazy world right now. Uh, that there's, there's space for, um, envisioning creative self realization and community. And that it's, it's really hard to know what's going to happen, you know, I mean, it's, it's almost strange to have like really, really crazy time. right now, right? Like really, really, in three years, we're not going to be in the same world that we're in right now. And so there are a lot of possible outcomes for which my ideas and music aren't very useful, like complete civilizational collapse and things like that. It's like metal alums isn't going to help very much, but like if there's a possibility of kind of keeping, like finding at some level of abstraction what it is that makes us human and ways that we can lean in to these changes to sort of actually build a society that's like truly made of art, you know, or where like it's possible to sort of really, really find true creative fulfillment as well as religious fulfillment in a way that is close perhaps to like the the the Pacific vision or something like that, you know, where like what like people really do sort of see God more often, you know, or that that's like a real part of daily life is sort of seeing God, you know, or being being being aware of like being aware of like what what the best actions are or something like that. Or what we're like the human condition, the human condition that we're sort of accustomed to is like suspended somehow or like you know we evolve in relation to that. You know, I highly again would be something like that and that like that what an artist can do right now at the very least is sort of like like offer some kind of some kind of hope or some kind of like like just offer some ideas in that direction, you know, because most people are so hopeless, you know, it's like I like pretty much everyone I talk to and they have all these different reasons for it too, you know, but like everyone is just sort of like yeah, like this is it. Yeah, you know, you wake up every day and there's some new crazy thing that you look at it is like something that was incomprehensible two years ago. And it's just like a daily occurrence now like oh yeah, Los Angeles is now on fire like it's terrifying like terrible things are happening. Yeah, okay. And then just just so I'm inside the theology a little bit, is the idea that just as a community level, but then there's also the individual souls. And so part of the the process would be the individual souls basically making that ascent from the hyperborean up into the alegendic sort of that that theosis is part of this, right? The the sort of shift within the individual person then helps transform community as well. Yeah, you know, it's in a way it's not that different in a lot of ways from Schiller's eschatology, you know, like so it's like like we could have a world where everybody is a total artist, you know, and and just like and just like what it is to be a human is to learn as much as you can about the world, learn as much as you can about your own activities and abilities and generate a total work of our comprised of music and philosophy and art and share it with one another and you know, influence one another through like you know, like do have have what happens in sort of DIY music scenes or avant-garde hotbeds or whatever just having that be like all of life, you know, and so it's like we have a new civilization where sort of you know, there are these kind of universal human beings whose whose concerns are sort of growth and healing and growing in wisdom and compassion. We're like the religious path is the meaning of life and so you know like and at the very least because people will say like oh let's say like let's say the best case scenario, you know, is that we we come out some of us anyway in like a post-work world, you know, like and you know, even then, well won't life won't life become meaningless, you know, and it's just like well at the very least like there actually are really imminent sources of meaning that that like that like people need to be led to because it could because not everyone really believes that you can find fulfillment in just you know, deepening your relationships and your relationship to yourself and learning and creating and sharing, you know, it's like like like in public discourse, no like people don't often talk about that as like a realistic sort of structure for society. Yeah, really well put. So gosh so much, let's see so I'm trying to figure out a phrase this question so that it doesn't come off as tini. How does would you see the the goal of the record then as sort of like aspirational for people? Is it supposed to sort of open up the space for experiencing what that could be like? And what I asked this is you've spoken before about the ways in which rock shows can be sort of sacred right and can be initiatory in a way and I know that that's something that you're very much after with liturgy shows like there's this sort of religious catharsis that's there. So you know when you bring something that's this personal and heavy out, is it to basically like open those vistas for people? Like what is the sort of purpose of bringing that out in a way? Yeah, I think opening the vistas, you know, and like I um you know and again like with with hard music and even with philosophy too, you know, it's like one wants to be careful to even claim to have an intention, you know, it's like like I can't really help but do what I do, you know, and like you know clear like liturgy has some kind of connection with like this serif, you know, it's like that like it's kind of like a um and it's going back to orthodoxy as well and and and and the idea of kind of like the glory of God actually appearing on on earth. We we we we we spoke a little earlier about one nice thing about orthodoxy being the possibility of theosis which is something that's not very popular in Western Christianity um where like people have an actual divine kernel they can be cultivated but another one and this was like part of the reason for the breach between East and West is is the idea that God uh that God's energies can actually come down there um and then and then it's not just God appearing here it's not like mediated like God appears right um and uh like I've always been compelled with liturgy to like you know construct like stretches of time that are just as like transcendentally gorgeous and moving and kind of scary and triumphant and tender as possible uh as as a way of kind of like you know opening the eternal eye like it's like like like we have these veils where we're kind of focused on lower level things fears you know self or whatever and like there's there's a way that music can just kind of like explode that uh briefly and um and so yeah I you know it's like I write the music because I love it so much like I know it's it's just like it's just an obsession for me um but the the effect that I like to hear about it happening you know is sort of getting people to like um oh like sob at an experience of like enialistica or something and and and and and and then that being like a healthy a healthy thing that then can inspire someone to um you know live in a more like loving way um and and more courageous way wonderful uh then I have to ask any liturgy shows uh any tour on the horizon for or are you pretty firmly focused on the philosophical treaties right now um what we're doing some shows this year I mean we've been touring a lot in the past like three years really uh we've done more touring than ever because and we worked so hard on the last album and really wanted travel with it as much as possible. But yeah, we're doing, we're going to do some shows in Europe in May and then we'll definitely at least do something in New York this summer. But yeah, we're not doing any like extensive drawing this year because I'm going to try to get this book finished. It takes a lot of work to focus on a book. It is no joke. Especially when it is an esotericism because esotericism, it's so esoteric. You know, it's like, I made the mistake of deciding because I had never really read this so hard. And like, oh man, that is not, I mean, we talked about Dillers and Guitaria really. It's equally not easy reading. Beautiful. Like, sublime is one of the greatest things ever. I'm just kind of like, I'm like, how am I supposed to write, you know, how can I write a book of Kabbalah if I haven't read this so hard? And so, I mean, I mean, I'm reading like parts of it. I mean, there's really, there's like five or six passages that are like, you know, the best known. But yeah, and I've been setting a lot of like medieval angel magic, grammars and stuff like that. Because I'm very interested in the history of angels. And, you know, the relationship between kind of like, you know, the Semitic Angel hierarchies with like, you know, sort of neoplatonist sort of hierarchies within the noose. And like, we're really kind of having like constructing a system of Kabbalah really from the most fundamental elements. And like, sort of to have a, like, I've been setting the history of Kabbalah a lot. You know, and then, and then there's so many, anywhere, there's so much. And there's so many different systems, you know, it's like that people think of people think they know what like Kabbalah is. But it's like, which one? I mean, it's tradition, but like it's it can be regional like Black metal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not like which one out of the five. It's like which which one out of the 500, you know, like. So we've talked about two persons of the Trinity. We've talked about the music and we've talked about the philosophy and really dug in. But there's the third port of the meta-paracuresis. And that's your sculpture. All right, so how long have you been sculpting? Yeah, what was your sort of path into doing this more visual art? And where does the sort of impulse come for that when you're so already deeply embedded in both philosophy and music? Like, what was it that is like, I need this third thing also. Yeah, I only had my first sculpture show in 2021, I guess. And I've done three now. I've done like one one a year. It's the past a couple of years. And but it's been a big concern of mine for a long time. Like, I've been, I've always been kind of socially in the art world kind of more than anywhere else. Like I I and I captured that kind of in college too, just a lot of like, just made friends, a lot of people who are artists and sort of like the kind of art scene on the lower-rise side of New York. And but so I so like I had a practice of making work that looks kind of like the work that I've now been making. But yeah, just didn't really get around to getting a show until the past couple of years. I mean, partly because I feel like back in the day, like the artist, the visual artist who really let me up was Joseph Boyce, you know, who was sort of a, you know, fluxist artist with strong, shamanic, and romantic elements. And honestly, for a long time, in the art world, like people just were not interested in art that had a religious, spiritual dimension to it. Like it was just impossible to really get respect or get a show. And that really kind of changed with the Helmauff-Lympt show at the Goodenheim, where like, where like all of a sudden, at least in the world that I was in, like it was possible to sort of, I don't know, like, be an openly Christian artist. And so, I mean, honestly, that's basically the reason why I didn't do any sculpture shows until the past couple years is because that I just couldn't really get a show. Like it was like people, because it's already hard when you're a musician. Like people will kind of be like, "Oh, okay, you wanted to get art thing too," you know, but like, you know, really you're a musician. And so, but more recently, people have just been a little more sympathetic to my approach in making sculptural work. But I mean, but part of what I like about it is, this is kind of one kind of, not really the main thing, but one detail of what I like about making physical art right now is just that it is material. And so, I feel like so much of my life is immaterial. You know, it's like, it's like, you really have these albums that are just reproduced and they're just digital bits and like, you kind of perform music and it's a single experience. And, you know, creating these kind of like talismans that are kind of charged with energy and that there's, and that there's just one of them and that it was made by hand is very like, I find it very satisfying. And so, I use, I use, I do, it's kind of 3D printing. I work at the computer a lot. So, it's like, it's, it's, I'll make models and blender and 3D print them and laser engrave diagrams. And, you know, you, and then use a lot of spray paint and like, distressing techniques like burning and melting wax and things like that. And to kind of create like physical vehicles, physical objects that sort of are, they kind of contain, they contain like artifacts of ideas, you know, but just the way the visual works is just very different from different from the way concepts work, I guess, you know. And so, and so it's like having, having those two modes together is kind of nice for me. Yeah. And it brings me back to what we were talking about very early on, this sort of haptic dimension. Right. It's easy to go into this ephemeral space or into this conceptual space, but being able to actually like touch and actually mold and move like that's a, it's a powerful thing. Right. If you're, if, especially to talk about our crazy time, we exist in this digital space far too often. Although it makes for really nice things like being able to do two hour interviews. And a great distance apart. Well, not too great a distance, but all right. Wonderful. And so just to close, well, what can we expect from you coming in the next, you know, several months? Because I mean, no, the book should be out by the end of the year, although, you know, that's, that's a terrible thing to say to an author because it always, something always pops up. But like, will there be like YouTube posts, like what's in the shoot, as they say? Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, I'm kind of behind on my online life. My intention is to post something new, you know, at least every week or a couple of weeks. But since I've been going so hard with the book, it's a little bit difficult to put time into. I'm kind of hibernating from online right now in a way, or I was. And so anyway, to answer your question, hopefully some more sub-stack posts and YouTube posts. But I'm kind of like trying to negotiate that right now. But yeah, the main thing is the book. Yeah, I mean, and all your fans are going to honor that because writing books is hard. And writing about this is hard. And it is a completely different mindset to try and do that as opposed to a sub-stack post. Like you have to go into this space where all the pieces of however many hundreds of pages fit together as opposed to this one post, you know, that you can, this sort of discrete and self-contained, you know, so it's tough, but we're looking forward to it. So, Hey, Leruvana, on Tendrix. Thank you so much for coming on, Pop-Pop-Pop-Lips. It's been so engaging and interesting to get to know more behind the person behind the work. Yeah, thanks so much. A lot of fun. [Music]