Black in Appalachia: John Henry

I am some break a dozer and I'm black in Appalachia. You're asking as if this is the first thing you've heard these things. Well, that's the consequence of privilege and that's the consequence of living a society that doesn't authentically and realistically look at our experiences in our past honestly. What's up podcast listeners. This is Dr. Keshiel Means, sociologist of race and place in black Appalachian experiences. And what's up it's pumpkin star your favorite guest tells them mountain bread. Y'all are listening to the black and apple etch podcast. I'm doing great. I'm feeling good. I'm moisturized. I'm full of soup and grilled cheese. I'm happy. All right, she's doing good and need a warm and warm black. I'm free. She looks good. Look like my mama. She look good. Hey mama. So mama star. Shut up. Shut up. So mama star. All right, so pumpkin is feeling good. I hope y'all are out there feeling good. Feeling full. Okay, pumpkin. So today on the black and apple etch podcast, we are talking about John Henry. John Henry. The legend John Henry. We heard it. He was a steel driving. He's a steel driving man. But for those of you who don't know who John Henry is or was. So yeah, he was a steel worker for the railroad. The legend of John Henry is that he raised a steam drill. And he won. And the significance of him winning was that you know, all this new technology is coming in that the work in man, the work in hands can be any machine. Any machine you'll bring to us. Beat it and then die. Yeah, but that's also part of the legend too is that he died from racing and winning against the steam drill. So many of us have heard, especially if you live in in that peloton region, you've heard about John Henry. You've heard. Matter of fact, John Henry's all over the place, right? Everything from children's books to songs to movies, ludicrous and. Oh, yes. Yeah, ludicrous has a movie. I came out last year. Yeah, it was that recent. Yeah, it was like a modern, you know, tale of it. So yeah, a lot of it's kind of like the story of like, it's a black story. Definitely a part of the American cultural landscape. Yeah, and it's of like a black worker story. And it's about like a man being like, you know, tough. Yeah, do you remember the first time you heard the John Henry story? I don't remember when, but it was kind of part of this folktale fabric that I grew up with. And it was about like, yeah, like a strong black man beat nads, beat nads of, you know, labor. And I think my family, you know, they were worked in factories and mines and all, you know, it connected to us. Yeah, I think the first time I heard a John Henry story was a few years ago, I think 2017. And I remember it specifically because I heard the story from Bill Turner. We were at a conference. The African Americans in Western North Carolina and Southern Appalachia up in Asheville. And Dr. Turner was like the keynote that year. And he told the John Henry story there. And that was the first time that I remember hearing about it. So like, I guess I've been on the rock until that point. But I learned a story as an Appalachian story. And I was fascinated with it from then on. Okay. So like, what I think is interesting is that it's like where you're at is how you hear the story and like in what relation. Because I kind of always took it as like a Southern story. Then I got older and I was like, oh, this is an Appalachian story. Yeah. But yeah, that's interesting that you heard it while you're older. And I heard about it when I was a little one. Exactly. So we're going to talk a little bit about the story. And then we're going to talk about just different interpretations of the story. Like the other story. Yeah. So this story kind of belongs to many Appalaches. I think we've talked about that before the different Appalaches. There's not this one monolith of it. And so it can be defined as an industry story or working class story. It has a lot of stories, a lot of places connected to this. So before we dig into that, we want to talk about what is the John Henry story. We're going to tell it through the folks on. Correct. Of John Henry. Let's go. [MUSIC - "JON HINRY"] [SINGING] This version of the tale of John Henry was recorded in 1920s by Ferry Lewis. So this song, The Tale of John Henry, has been recorded by many people. It's a folk song. So there's many different recordings. And this version that's in this story is, you know, out of all the different versions and interpretations of the story. And interpretations of the John Henry legend, this is the one that took authority. What's contributed to that, the most is John Henry tracking down a Negro legend that was written by Guy Bitten Johnson. It's a full-lith book that he wrote in the 20s that really promoted the authority of the story. But speaking about the many versions of the John Henry story, we've learned about John Henry in many contexts. The man has many histories based on these versions. So we've heard that he was born into slavery. He was born a free man. He was a convict laborer. He was white. [LAUGHTER] He was a troublemaker. The man was seven feet five inches tall. His name was John Hardy. He was five feet five inches tall. Lots of different versions, lots of different understandings and interpretations of John Henry. But for our story, what we've landed on was that John Henry was a black man and a worker for the railroad company. So we know that he was an industrial worker. I think that's pretty solid across many of all of these versions. But we've heard that he's from many places as well. People in Alabama say he was from Alabama. Folks in Kentucky was like, well, he's from Kentucky. We've heard that he was from New Jersey and got brought down somewhere. He's been as far south as Jamaica or Panama. He's from Virginia and West Virginia. And what we're finding too is that John Henry was a common name. And then also these are all places that had industry. Exactly. Exactly. And also the one thing we also found is that this story is about a man working to his death. And it's unfortunately a universal test. It's happened right. So many black men have worked in the death. And many places. So yeah. So the peak of the story is about a context. Him fighting a steam drill, having a contest with that. This is also part of why this story is hailed and worker folklore. You know, the machine took on the worker and the machine lost. So it's a story of pride also arguing against the many innovations that came from the industrial age, which was coming for manual jobs, which I feel like maybe we were laughing about the retelling of the story last year. Thinking about the man versus machine in this industrial age and thinking about man versus machine in this current contemporary age, I think we see parallels here with like AI and all of the super technology that we are embarking on, which we've already embarked on. So I think that might be a part of maybe why we've seen the story reemerged in this way in recent times. I don't know. Anyways, back to the story. But in 1870 is when the contest was took place, it took place at the East end of the event on a great, but it would have been early in the construction of the tunnel because they're happening at the entrance of the tunnel. And while they were working on the entrance of the tunnel, and there was over a thousand men and boys that worked during this construction. There are accounts of where there was several young Henry's working on the tunnel and there is always contest going on in between the steel drivers. Things he could drive the most in the rock, you know, the quickest, you know, to break up the time of the day. That was one thing that the men were always doing. This is just a common thing. There are people that believe that he killed and sustained engine because of the technology that he was trying to out-de-technology. But that is not what I think from what I understand that I have. John Henry was doing the first cell of man for the fellow workers that he worked with and any other people to save their jobs. From the gate with him, he worked with him, he knew them and their families, and they were family. They all worked them. Every day they got up and went to the tunnel, picked up a piece of steel and hammered and started beating him to the right day in and day out. So that was Michael Kales from the John Henry Historical Park in Summers County, West Virginia. And he tells the story. His interpretation is from the oil tradition that lives in his town about how John Henry took on the steam drill in 1870. What's really interesting about his town's interpretation is that there's eyewitness accounts and stories of his wife in the burial place. And it's more of like, this is a story from our town. It's not a story of folklore. Right. And I think the book that we mentioned earlier, I think that he was saying that that book as well as another book on John Henry sort of based on the story from their town. There is no absolute document stating that John Henry was at the tunnel in the other contest. There was a place. Everything we have is in oil tradition. And there is a couple of them that were eyewitnesses of the contest. John Henry himself, they say that he had a white by name of Pallet Anne, which made me true. It may not be true. We do have oral tradition here in talk. It says he's buried in the Methodist Church Cemetery and the Simpson Methodist Church Cemetery. And we have a sign up there, a state that this is a purported burial place. There are people that say that John Henry was buried there also, which is my true, for the Methodist Church was not established until 1876. And John Henry had his contest in 1870. So therefore there would not have been those cemetery nor church there at the time. We have one testimony from one family, from the Method family. There were two brothers and they worked on a sawmill. They're at the mouth of the tunnel. They said that they need John Henry. They're friends with them. They witness the contest. Can he bid be to Stangereal? And he did die. And he was buried 1,000 feet east of the tunnel. And we have a key usher in the park stating that this is where he was buried at, along with the other places that people have said that he's buried. There's a lot of places you'd be amazed on how many places that they claim that he's buried. So with this understanding of the story and the contest from the John Henry Historical Society, we wanted to get a little bit of understanding of how John Henry has been used in culture. So we spoke to Marie Cochran, founding curator of Afflechen Artist Project, who curated a virtual exhibition that included a sculpture by Kyle and Kelly Filps about John Henry. This mixed media sculpture by Kyle and Kelly Filps is one of the works that I think is best representative of Afflechen art. There's so many symbols involved in the work. So if someone doesn't know that this is John Henry, they know that this is a black man that's a labor. They can see it now. We also had a great conversation with her about her interpretation of the legend. My understanding of the John Henry story as a black native of the region of Afflechen as a black woman who has family of workers and working class people who's very connected to the men in my family, my father, my uncles, who call her workers, is that it's a compilation of stories that becomes condensed into one story. I do not see it as a minute. And the little research that I've done on that side of it, because I'm more interested in artistic interpretations. But the little bit that I've read on, they're various potential actual people. And I've seen that by scholars. But for me, that's the whole point is that you have this discussion about the changing society and the industrial revolution. And when people talk about black women and democracy, they also don't have to have it iconic. But you can also talk about black men and work. And that's not done enough. It's often talked about in terms of incarcerated labor and things like that, and not about black men as working because they have a particular skill set to do the job and strength and intelligence to do the job. And to me, that's what the John Henry story is about. So Marie speaks of John Henry and the legend being an amalgamation and particularly being of one around black, ablachement, black working men. And I think that's kind of what we were getting at earlier and saying that all of these different versions and this particular story is a universal story because it's happened in so many places. So for black folks who've had these experiences all over, this story makes sense. We can attach many different things to it because we have different versions of it in our own lives and our own spaces. And so it becomes this amalgamation, as she said, of our experiences, of black men's experiences in particular. Yeah. So thinking about that relationship between workers, experiences, and their health, Dr. Sherman James coined the term John Henryism. And that was based on a study he did in 1983. Yeah. And he studied a small group of black working class men. And he found these overarching trends of hypertension, heart disease. And he also found trends of them affirming what we see coming out of the legend of John Henry, of I will make things that are impossible possible. When I am doubted, I will still work to prove that I can do it, that I will stand up for things that I believe. Those were some common statements that he was kind of seeing in that group of men that he studied. So black workers were out here making the impossible possible and kind of taking on that identity, that strong identity in sort of this John Henry way. Yeah. And I mean, I can-- when I found this information, I was also just kind of thinking about just how-- that's how we have to survive. Exactly. It's kind of put out there that it's impossible for us to even make it. And we keep proving that it's possible. And we do it brilliantly. So the context has been so much about black men and black working men. But when I hear this, I think of women and I think of mothers and I think of films and I think of queer people and I think of a lot of folks beyond black working men making surviving and living into thriving and existing. For sure. And I think that taking John Henry as one to another level and really thinking about black workers in general, we see Dr. Richard Reddick sort of doing that in his work. Richard Reddick is an associate professor and associate dean of equity community engagement and outreach for the College of Education at University of Texas Austin. And he wrote an article last year during some of the uprisings that we saw and with the murders of George Floyd and others just kind of reminding us of that moment, but also like how black workers worked experiencing that moment. Yeah. So he put it more in the terms of black professionalism also and on June 10th of last year, he published an article called, "We Can't Breathe That Work, Evert, John Henry, "and the Health Impact of Racism." So he's looking at how those affirmed politics that came out of the study of German shames of like them possible being possible. How now in our generation, how we've kind of inherited that and what is it actually really doing in our present day to us? Many years ago, I was reading some of the work of Sherman James, who's the person who came up with a concept of John Henry's. And I was like, this is exactly what I have experienced. And obviously, I think about my experience in academic spaces, you know, not being the same as being in a blue collar position, but the same kinds of things, the extra psychological stress and health problems that come with it. And I remember very vividly, I was at a fellowship meeting one time and assisted got up there and talked about her journey in academia and said, "You know, all my mentors are dead." And I was just like, and she started describing all these women of color, mostly black women, who had nurtured her in racester and they all died young, you know, cancer, heart disease, you know, dying in their 50s and their 60s. And you know, after, you know, you could see this was published in June of 2020. So right after George Floyd's murder, you know, like many academics in case you probably had the same kind of thing happened to you, people reached out, tell us about this. And you know, at certain point, you know, part of our job is to be, you know, conveyors of knowledge and so forth, but then it becomes draining on you. I had to stop. I had to say, I just can't take it more than you're used right now. And so I said, down and just sort of put this piece together. Remembering Sherman James's work and said, you know, this is happening in workplaces. And the most amazing thing that happened is that maybe a week or so after it got out, Sherman James, Professor Edouc, reaches out to me and says, "I saw the piece, great job. Thank you for bringing people to my work." And I'm like, brother, you were saying this stuff back in the 80s and you basically gave us a box in which to put these emotions and these concerns that we experienced. And in my own work, I study a phenomenon called cultural taxation, which is very similar, which is all the work that we do, especially in predominantly white spaces, that attends to diversity, equity, inclusion, and recruitment and all those kinds of things like that, that we are dependent on to do, but we're really compensating. And of course, when it comes time for, in the case of academia, promotion in tenure, or in any other place, promotions are merit money, you're not getting that because it's extra work. I see this happens so many times for black professionals, both in the academy and also in nonprofits and in other corporate settings, which is why I brought in the example from insecure, which did a great job of showing this. This is what we do. - Yeah, so he's talking more about, he's beginning to talk about like academia and his article is about professionals, but which is not included in this recording, we also talked about how I was relating to it, thinking about working in nonprofits, in all my jobs too, like I was thinking about retails, thinking about service industry. And so I feel like he kind of brought in the spectrum of-- - He brought in it, yeah. And I think that's really important. I think another piece that he touches on that's really important is just like that, the stress and the sort of John Henry's, I'm just taking on work and everything that comes with it is stressful and it's bad for our health, right? It kills people and I think that kills people part, it's still so important. And I think it's important to keep reiterating that, like this should kill you. - It can kill racism can kill you. - Yeah, yeah. - And it's like, you know, the whole time I was thinking about that, it's like, you know, he wrote this article when really when the front of people's brains was about black people being shot. - Right, right. - Police. - Right. But, you know, as a black queer person, I think a lot about of just like, what he's talking about, like the heart disease, the stress, like all those other things. And like, that's really my definition of what I think of, you know, when I say and exert that racism is deadly for black people. - I agree. And what I also, also what I like about what he's doing, what you pointed out was that he's connecting this to black women's experiences, right? So not just kind of like black men as labor, but black women as well. - Yeah, and not framing that, you know, the toughest, which, you know, it is in a reality, but like really the toughest of the black experience is not just people who, not just men working, you know, working class for sure realities. - Sure. - It's dangerous for just black people. - In general. - In general. - I think it's really telling as well that the little while ago, Gallup did a survey and found out that black women as a demographic are the least likely to go back to the, from the working at home situations. Because, you know, you're working at home, all of a sudden you're liberated, you're able to do your work, you're not dealing with microaggressions, you're not dealing with, you know, kind of touch your hair, you're just able to work. And black women are saying generally, like this is more sustainable and healthy for me than going to that space constantly and dealing with it, 'cause it does add up over time. I think that's the thing to forget. Like, oh, that's episode. It's the fact that it happens constantly that makes it so damaging. You know, you could have two days, nothing happens. One day, you're dealing with somebody who's, you know, once in a while, your hair looks different. One day, you're dealing with somebody who says, well, you know, we can't get any more people of color to come into the space. Can you help us? That's the daily thing that we go through. So, I think, hopefully the article brings to the attention folks that this is something that black people, by-pop people, but black people in particular, are soldering in a consistent basis. And then what would you do about it to make those concerns alleviate it for that population? - I mean, that's actually what Sherman James' research shows us, like the physical manifestations. And, you know, a lot of us come from communities or backgrounds where people are like, oh, mental, that's just in your head. You need to work through that. But of course, the linkage between mental health and physical well-being is well established, right? And what I've reminded people is that, having to go through the psychological process of thinking about, well, do I respond to this? Do I say something about this? Do I let it go? Was that in fact a microaggression? Was that somebody just being rude? Was that somebody just not taking care of the business like they're supposed to? Like, the fact you get to go through those machinations, just means it's more, that's why people are tired, right? That's the thing that I think the pandemic really showed us. And, you know, sort of coming through this experience where you're dealing with the racial reckoning and being asked every day, tell me about, inform me, like, you know, you had access to the internet, you had access to Google, but you want me to be your native informant and tell you all the things that you could be studying yourself. But also because our educational system has not served the reality of experiences of black people, right? So a lot of times, well-meaning white colleagues are asking us questions, but you should have learned that in elementary school. You should have learned that in high school. But look at this interesting context we're in now when people don't wanna talk about race in schools. And you understand why when, you know, people come up with a certain age, they realize the world is different for you than it is for me. Why is that? And they come to us for the information. And as I've told people, and I do diversity, equity, and inclusion work as I know y'all do, right? When you do that work, it's like teaching physics. I'm talking about experiences that things have happened to me and people who I care about. So it's a very different sort of experience. And in fact, I wrote an article a couple of years ago about trauma for people who do the research and training and diversity, because you're talking about microaggressions. You're talking about how people have been treated and works place settings, which are actually things that have happened to you. And oftentimes you have people who don't believe it or they doubt it. And it's like, you know, this is something that's actually happened to me. In fact, when I do my diversity and equity work, we typically work in pairs for that very reason, because sometimes you might need a minute just to say, did I just hear this person just told me, like, I'm not trying to learn, but my goodness, how can you live in America in 2021 and not know that black people, brown people, queer people deal with all kinds of issues? And you're asking as if this is the first thing you've heard these things. Well, that's the consequence of privilege and that's the consequence of living a society that doesn't authentically and realistically look at our experiences in our past, honestly. So, you know, I kind of feel like, you know, like John Henry, the effort and the weight of this work is put on our shoulders. - Definitely want to shout out Dr. Reddick because he has given us a word. - Yeah, that interview was sick and ridiculous. - Oh, that's what you did. That's what you did. That's what you did. - That was great. - That was great. - We should get like all the awards for like, the Cornious One-Liners. - Are those One-Liners? - I don't think they're Corn-Anne and they're gold. - Well, Cornie Gold. - Cornie Gold. - Yeah. - That should be a category. Anyways, so if we don't find joy in our work, then we'll kill us. - El John Henry. - Exactly. So we have to, we have to find these moments, but for real though. Like definitely appreciate that conversation. I know I was sitting there like, oh my God. Yes, I feel seen and heard and-- - He was very affirmative, you know? Like it was like, of course, you know, we feel this and we know this stuff. - It's kind of like when you go to a doctor and-- - Okay. (laughing) - And you've like already webmed in, you know, like I'm dying. - I'm dying, you know? - Yes. - But then, you know, you go to the doctor and they actually firmly, yes. - You are right. - Is something wrong. - No, nothing you're dying. Like there is something wrong, no. - Right. - You know, and like, and there's this, the study that proves it, you know, it's just, that's what I kind of feel, you know, talking to him. It's like, I knew this stuff. - Right, right. - You know, like if anybody asked me, I've got my expert of mine. - I don't like it. - Yeah, it's our lives. It's our lives. - Yeah. - So I think that, you know, when we think about the story, the John Henry story and, you know, we've kind of traced like where it's supposedly originated and all the many versions that come out of it. And then just the different ways that we've been able to attach different meanings and different understandings, that story has allowed us to live out or to give name to our experiences as black folks, as black people who've been worked the hell out of. - Yeah. - In America, right? - I come back to just sort of the malgommation piece again. Right? And just sort of like this story, this name, this experience, really the story, this story is something that resonates with us so strongly, resonates with us culturally. But yeah, like the story has allowed us to name a certain experience, right? And a traumatic experience. It's something that we've turned around, we've made, you know, prideful. Like we are proud of it. Like we're proud of how we've been able to survive, right? Because we're not dead. - I mean, but speak for yourself. - Okay, my interpretation of this story, you know, that's okay, before I say my interpretation, I want to acknowledge that we are, we're trying to share other different interpretations of this story because it allows a lot of different interpretations, the worker, - Exactly. - The Black Appalachian Pride, the, you know, industrial age, the worker, you know, preservation through that pride, thinking about Black men, thinking about the labor of Black people. There's a lot of different, you know, entries of interpretation. And I, you know, personally, I hear the story of John Henry and it makes me sad. It makes me sad and it makes me frustrated. It makes me sad about how we view labor and the bodies and the humans behind it. And in some of the interpretations I've been there. And then also, you know, it makes me frustrated because it's like, how long has this tale existed? You know, of us dying for work. And how we still have not gotten it right, you know, it's currently this year. And I'm, it's not even right in my life of how labor is negotiated with me, how it's taken for me, how it's treated. And so I hear a story like this and I think, oh, this is a folk tale. I'm like, yo, we built on the idea that like, that we should die. What should you tell us? - Yeah, we should just die. And like, and to me, I'm like, you know, I don't disagree with that pumpkin. I guess what I'm saying is that what John Henry has done, when I think about the conversation that we just had with Dr. Reddick, like, that for me is like giving language to an experience that I've not been able to. Like, I know what I feel. I especially felt that last year, when like he said, we were getting all of the requests from all, with like, I was angry, right? And walking around with that anger and not knowing how to land it. And so what that story, like them connecting this idea of John Henry is, for me, has allowed me to land that, right? So that's what I'm talking about. Not necessarily like, I know that people have pride or whatever, different interpretations of it, which I think are important. And they think that people are, people are allowed those, right? Particularly black folk, whatever it needs to do for you, do it, whatever. But I agree with you. But what I'm saying is just to that last piece, like him sort of saying, like, hey, this thing that you're experiencing, this is what it is, that does something for me. That I can name this experience. And I can now I can work to a place where I'm like, okay, well, what does it mean to leave that behind to not carry that, right? Or to say, nah, homie, I'm not doing this or I'm not doing that or whatever, you know what I mean? Like, let into work go. - I think that's another piece of my frustration. - Go for it. - We named it, well, you know what? - Yeah, like, what are we gonna do about it? Like, we're gonna, we can talk about theory all day long, you know, and it's always for myself. - Yeah, like, you know, we could do episodes of theory, but like, what is, or what's happening? But what are we gonna do with it? Like, what are we gonna do with this information? What is the person even listening to this episode gonna do? How are they gonna go to work and treat the black person on their staff? - Or like, or black folks, how are you gonna, like, say, and play a cell phone? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, so I think, like, you know, I'm thinking about so many people and we've talked about this, so many people who are like, at a verge of like, quitting a job that they are miserable at. Or they feel this is not why I went into this profession. This is not the work I wanted to do. I'm busy writing reports and, you know, and not serving the students that I wanna serve, right? So I think that that is something that, you know, if we don't push back against it, if we don't stand up and say, well, no, I'm not gonna do all of this other shit to get tenure or whatever, like, this is the work that I do, this is the work I enjoy. And the university has to change, or the school system has to change before the nonprofit has to change, or the boss has to, you know, how do we, like, what is that, where does that begin? What's y'all doing out there? Tell us what you're doing, how you pushing back, what you're gonna do with your next steps. - Yeah, 'cause are you just listening to this and being like, well, that's just a nice, I'm gonna put that in my little mind bank. - I agree. - And, you know, go back and talk shit about how someone took weeks to answer emails instead of investigating what happened to that person and seeing them as a person. Or, you know, saying, there, I'm professional. And like, you know, are we gonna continue the legend that will eventually, you know, push us to beat the machine and die from it. - And die, die still going. - So forget that die part, 'cause, yeah, anyways. All right, on that note, we should get the hell out of here. - Yeah. - I'm about to go and go home, going home for today. - All righty. - Let's go, bye. (laughing) - No career for real, y'all. - Thank you for listening to the Black and Appalachia podcast. Thank you for all of our guests who are on this show. - Yeah. - We shout out to all y'all, all the great things. - Shout out to James. - Shout out to James on the ones and two Z's. Y'all can find all of the work of Black and Appalachia at Black and Appalachia.org. We're also on all the socials, Black and Appalachia. We are raising money for our programs. - Yes. - And our, all of our work donate to Black and Appalachia. We need it, we need it. And thank you to you. - Thank you to you. (laughing) Y'all can find pumpkins as always in your dreams and you can find me at Science Sociologist on our socials. We'll talk to y'all on the next episode of the Black and Appalachia podcast. Bye, bye. - Bye, y'all. - Bye. - Bye. - Y'all don't know how to be singing, and y'all know how to sing. - Bye. - Okay. (upbeat music) (soft music) - From PRX.