Bits + Bips: The Most Dangerous Type of Asset to Trade on Weekends

it's really challenging to be like in crypto and see this massive equity rally, massive gold rally like I don't know like we do have an adventure arm and like three four years ago like every venture deck would be like this is a market cap of crypto, this is market cap of gold, this is market cap of equity and I was like this market cap of crypto, this is market cap of gold, this is market cap of equity so it's like crypto didn't change your role and vibration is good up and yeah it's kind of sad so it just doesn't look like a volatile asset anymore which is very bizarre. Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Bits and Bips the interview, I'm your host Steve Ehrlich and I'm here today with Ethgenny Guyvoy CEO and founder of the crypto market maker welcome with Gennie. Hi, thanks for having me. If crypto taxes feel overwhelming, you're not alone. That's why crypto tax girl, a team that's been helping crypto investors since 2017 is offering $100 off on one-on-one crypto tax help to get $100 off. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use indeed sponsor jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more, spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit at indeed.com/podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast, terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for indeed sponsor jobs. Taxgirl.com/unchained. Before we do, just a quick disclaimer. As always, nothing that you hear on the show today is investment advice or financial advice for more disclaimers. Please see unchained.com/bits and dips for more information. And with that, again, let's dive right in. I want to make sure that everyone listening today understands your business and what you do because it's critical, but it's also a little bit of the shadows. So can you just briefly explain market making in an impacticular how it relates to crypto? No, it sounds good. It's a question I get a lot generally because basically as a prop train firm and crypto, we really do a lot compared to a lot of our competitors. We roughly have three core businesses. So the first one is basically prop train and market making on centralized exchanges, like Coinbase, Binance, Kraken, Bybit, basically all the big ones, all the second tier, some third tier ones. And that's basically our bread and butter. They run hundreds of outgones doing millions of trades daily, basically providing bits and offers algorithmically. So basically if you trade on those exchanges, any of like hundreds of tokens that we cover, like you are quite likely to train with us. The second bit and that's something we've been doing since 2020 is basically providing liquidity on DeFi. So basically providing liquidity on all the key RFQ protocols on DeFi, like one-inch or Jupyter, for example, in Solana. We run prop AMM strategies for those who know what it is, but basically it's another way to provide liquidity via arbitrage liquidity pools. We do liquidations. We basically do pretty much every sense that can be done on DeFi side of things, in terms of making all-tech liquidity. And finally we have a pretty big OTC business where we trade, yeah, again like hundreds of assets across derivative sports, yeah, and basically beyond. And those basically like those three core like parts of the business is what really differentiates us from competition. And that's what really makes the business very successful because we are basically the only crop trade firm and crypto that actually does everything. And like it's pretty much our motto to be connected to our liquidity pools and others. Yeah, and one question that comes up a lot that I'd like to just kind of ask right away, how do you sort of segment the proc trading, the trading you do on your own book versus the market making? Just to ensure there's no conflicts of interest or no shadiness going on. I think it's less about like separating market-making from other strategies. But honestly, like in the modern world, like even if you look at TretheFi, basically nobody does pure market-making anymore. Like if you're not able to run successful market-making strategies, you need to run a bunch of strategies all on-site it. You need to run a bunch of signals that barely, yeah, enhance those market-making strategies. So basically let you be out of the market when it's too volatile, for example, or jump right back in if like if you're more sure about the prices that happens. So it's less about segregating different strategies, but more about like having a more comprehensive like books, if you may. Gotcha. And I want to get into some of these, I guess some of these functions in more detail, but I think we'll be able to do that through our discussion-tain questions. So I guess first, I want to discuss some of the key findings from your recent 2025 OTC report where you sort of kind of give a lay-out of everything that happened last year in crypto. And in particular, one key focus, or one key point was the fact that Alts did not have a good year and most trading activity, most liquidity concentrated in the mega-cap tokens, primarily Bitcoin and ETH. Could you please expand on that? Yeah, I think a big challenge currently is, well, basically last year, and here before that, there was a pretty big search in basically Bitcoin trading, especially on Salana, but also beyond that. And there were like basically bunch of factors that led to that. First and foremost, I think like there was a growing dissatisfaction on retail side of things that they are getting into tokens at a much later stage. Like, so basically like venture capital firms get into those tokens with like early, and when tokens are released for trading, it's basically too late for retail to make money. And that basically kind of pre-ferrated the platforms like BUM.FUN, where people had, at least maybe, potentially, well, most of the time, really, illusion of getting into things early and basically being able to make this 10/100 tax on basically trading something very early before anyone else. But in reality, what happened is, instead of, well, folks in a bunch of venture back tokens, people started trying to guess which of those like millions of meme currents will work out on any given day. And it just became very much unsustainable. The capital became like very diluted because it's just, well, it's the same amount of retail money competing for millions and millions of those meme currents. And it basically inevitably resulted in, yeah, basically market crash of 10/10 and beyond where basically, yeah, both retail and like bunch of liquid funds as well, just a lot of lost all of money because the system was too leverage, but the liquidity was to see and yes, the system just couldn't handle it. And post 10/10, basically, people just like, yes, there was a very clear flight to quality, at least on crypto side of things where people just decided to part the money as a stable core and a bit core in their cereal, maybe Solana. Okay, yeah, that is, I want to get into the retail psychology a little bit more because that is particularly interesting. But let's first focus just on the mega caps again, because again, there was the flight to quality, but then there was also big surge in debts and ETFs, especially in the beginning part, the year had some additional inflows. Can you maybe explain a little more what you saw there? And in the particular, what you saw through the end of the year, in particular, sort of, I guess, house sustainable, or will you expect to happen price-wise as we mentioned this year, given the fact that I would say after liberation day or so, crypto, but they call every asset including the big ones struggled. Yeah, I think that digital asset treasure is definitely also contributed to like this, I don't know, the whole space being like too diluted, like just again, like there were too many things to basely invest into, so you have a bunch of ETFs, you have a bunch of debts, you have a bunch of other tokens and perpetuals and everything else listed. So those debts, I think people didn't expect them to basically fail and crash and then so quickly, but like again, post 10 times that's basically what happened and a lot of them are trading basically way below the asset value, which is only natural, and I think it will take quite some time for the market to get back to, well, people being like excited about those debts, especially for debts that are like focused on not Bitcoin, not Ethereum, but like in some like very, very long tail, product care, product care. Okay, so how does that change your business then? I'm curious, like when when investor interest spins out, it gets concentrated in these large tokens that are already pretty liquid, how does that change what you guys do? Honestly, not much, like our, obviously our operating principle, we are training, but like they're basically training where volume is, so if volume is primarily constrained on bitcoin, go trade bitcoin more. But there has been other developments in the crypto as well, like they had been searched and basically tokenized gold, gold, perpetuous as well, on bunch of platforms as well. We actually shift in focus towards like train commodities, the shift in focus towards, for example, equity, perpetuous as well, certain that looks quite promising. So it's basically our operating model is, yeah, just focus whereas, yeah, market interest is at current moment. So we are not, yeah, we're not struggling in that regard. I do, I'm going to talk about all that or ask you about all that a little bit later, but okay, so we kind of handled spot. But we also saw big explosion and derivatives in particular options and it's a good thing in many ways because it creates more mature markets. It makes things safer for institutions to come in because they could hedge, but it also dampens volatility. And that works way beyond bitcoin as well. So we've seen a lot of this cover call like yield strategies like across the whole curve, also all the way to long tail as a seven on the interest side. So I think we will most likely see the continuation of this this year. So I think we will see a lot more interest and get people continuing expressed interest in train options and enhancing their basically, yeah, yield parameters or what's not by using those more complex complex instruments. But when it I think when it comes to retail retail will probably still stick to use the perpetuous, unlike in traditional finance where people are quite frequently using options to get leveraged. Like I think it's still prepared to also be the product of choice for retail and. And you operate world lighting, including in the US tracks. Yeah, we have basically have three core offices with London, Singapore and New York. I'm curious how you see engagement and derivatives and options in particular, how that differs geographically, like in Asia versus perhaps the US levels of maturity and. And in particular, how those instruments are used. I think in Asia, it's primarily focused on basically your generation, while in the vast, it's yet it's a lot more complex basically. So I think it's basically like yeah, the sophistication sophistication is a lot more on the investor side of things. Alright, so, and I'm curious, how do you decide which tokens to participate in? I mean, I assume you sometimes you work with the exchanges, sometimes you work with token issuers themselves. Like what is your thought process when you're evaluating a potential client? It's primarily volume, like I mean, there are, there are like a bunch of risks, quite some. The diligence process going through this, so we are like really trying hard not to work with somebody scam me, like to put it very, very directly. But I thought it's all about, yeah, I mean, I wish like everyone in crypto would pursue the like the same principle, but like there's definitely what how we operate. But generally, it's all about volume, like we do try to work with tokens that we expect to have significant interest, just basically, like I said, is it on defiance, if I ought to see, like if if a token is not expected to trade much, we're probably not going to engage. And where do you think retail attention is going to go next, if Alts, like like traditional Alts are struggling meme coins have flamed out NFTs are, they're struggling as well for lack of a better term. What do you think is all coin attentions going to go or is it AI, is it like exiled derivatives based on tax stocks that are tokenized like what do you think? I think that we already seen well, first of all commodities, well, gold and silver and specifically equity perps, basically like in videos, Tesla of this world, yeah, I'm pretty sure there is, well, there's going to be a lot more interest on those primarily because you can just get leverage that way. And prediction markets, so that's going to be a, even do we seem for this year, because yeah, we see, yeah, well, basically caution for the market competition will just continue as I do think we'll see a lot of other sort of like smaller comparators popping up more and more. So yeah, I do expect a lot of like interesting things happening in prediction market as well. Do you work with prediction markets? The better look at it, it's not necessarily like it's like on the, I recall it on a volume slide, it's not necessarily like the most interesting market, but we do see certain events, obviously sports betting is like very interesting from that perspective. But yeah, like we, we are looking to insert ourselves just like in the crypto, yeah, very well, yeah, I'm curious your sense of like how honest prediction markets are because I'm sure you've, I mean, you've studied this extensively, it sounds like it and I'm sure you've heard stories about and you've seen it, I mean, concerns about insider information and in the US, like sometimes trading on that on. Holly marker tell she's not even insider trading because of basically how certain laws are defined or the fact that markets that are somewhat thin, they can be moved by, by big traders that are not trading on our honest expectation of events, but because they feel that there's a way to manipulate the outcome in a way that won't be materially beneficial to them. I'm interested your thoughts on like how, like what are some of the reflexes that you see or like how, what are the safest ways to engage with prediction markets for people watching and listening who I'm sure already are. I think it's a, it's a major problem for market makers primarily because, okay, as a retail participant, okay, like if there is inside trading or any kind of manipulation instead of market, okay. Well, as 50, 50 for you, like you can be like it can go by the way, you might actually be on the same side as inside and then you're lucky. But as a market maker, it's, it's basically very challenging because if you want to actually provide liquidity, like kind of big size, it obviously works really well for the inside because then suddenly you can trade even more and make even more money because he has access to information that we are not, that we don't. And so it's definitely consideration. So we are, yeah, we definitely would be a lot more careful priority on markets where we do things that is like high chance to, yeah, to have inside information surface in one way or another. And I think it's also a difference between calcium, point market to a degree because, well, because calcium is K by seed and point market is not like yes, there is definitely more challenge is definitely more challenge and the priority on point market because of that because it's even harder to basically catch somebody somebody has inside information. It's really interesting and I didn't think of it that way that essentially you could be the sucker at the table in a way if you're providing deep liquid market that are that that are fundamentally unfair. Whereas the someone like like me, you could accidentally be on the right side of the person manipulating it would benefit that's pretty interesting. And then the way we also sort of incentivize like Vincent, like if we provide a lot of liquidity, we even incentivize even more for people to actually use inside information because if it's really like same book and you can actually make a lot of money by using inside information probably not going to do it. But there is a lot of liquidity actually, okay, I can make like 10x more 100x more compared to what I could have made before. And just yeah, it's crazy. It's like really weird incentive loop. Yeah, it is. Yes, you have to be very careful. So I guess just to be clear, have you have you engaged in prediction markets yet or you're still trying to find the right strategy. I would say safe to say the experiment and yeah, things that's the best I can indicate at this moment. And I want to talk a little bit also maybe go a little more detail into tokenized equities like curves related to traditional securities. We'll get to come out of these a little bit too, but how are you thinking about that from York from your business, how is that similar to the business lines who already operate. How are there any important differences and in particular to I know there's been some controversy and of controversy is right word, but it's difficult to stand up liquid markets for for even like ostensibly liquid assets. It's the new like on Robin Hood's arbitrage offering, for instance, like how do you help bootstrap that so that when people trade these these new versions of assets, they're making sure that they're getting the best possible price they're going to they're not enduring too much slippage. But the biggest challenge was, well, basically, there's anything like equity related on chain or like the secretary perhaps is basically trained when it's when the like the key market is not open. So basically trained during the weekends, for example. And that's ultimately like the biggest challenge like from last, well, basically last year, like a lot of news. Typically, now happening over the weekend, like Trump loves announcing stuff on Saturday and those things tend to move the markets and. like you could sort of like build a model which will yeah, make things like move in a fairly correlated way. That's not necessarily like the biggest challenge, but a really big challenge if he does something that changes a specific sector or like one company like kind of like he announced something like kind of Ben's chief's export to China or something like basically something that can affect you video only like that's then it becomes really challenging to make markets and then video on Saturday for a market make I like if it's not that good because everybody rushes in because it's for markets are closed so it puts a lot of strain on you I guess. Well it's basically you can get arped by people who are basically doing homework better than you. So like if you are just quoting an video but traded on Friday evening and you just like ignore all the news and somebody's actually watching the news really carefully or even like automates that like I don't know arbitrage of strategies based on Twitter news or some sliders yeah you basically yeah you again like you have a symmetry of information you can get exploited so it's yeah I wouldn't expect that it would be a lot of liquidity during the weekend in those in those stickers like or quite some time. Okay and so what's the disclaimer that nothing on this show is financial advice like what is your what is your sense like do you have any tips for people listening watching here that are perhaps trying to be opportunistic during times like that when when there is news to make sure that they're doing it safely or that they're not getting too far ahead of their skis. Hmm good question yeah I would be very careful position in myself over the weekend not basically ultimately not to be too well leveraged and also be really careful with equity perps platforms because like those tokens or those like equity perpetuals like it's it's relatively easy to manipulate them during the weekends and so you basically can get liquidated if somebody like pushes the price too much down or too much up so that's I guess like the main yeah saying you need to be careful if you especially if you deal with equity perps because yeah liquidation risk is like very real and very yeah like not theoretical. Okay all right so let's wish gears for a minute one of the reasons that like bringing on people like you is that you really kind of sit at the the nexus or intersection of what all the smart money's doing in the space so it's a really great opportunity for me to ask you what is happening and perhaps get some get some inside information in a I guess between us in just a few thousand friends but it's hard to have any conversation or crypto and not discuss gold silver even now copper I mean you read broadsheets and it seems like some of these assets are completely detached from reality and because this is a crypto show it's it's it's deflating for people watching listening to that see Bitcoin joining in the fun so what are you saying and and in particular I know you mentioned how you get involved in tokenized gold and that's a real growth area crypto so maybe you could talk about both sides of the trade. No I mean it's really challenging to be like in crypto and see this yeah massive equity rally massive gold rally like I don't know like we do have an adventure arm and like I know three for years ago like every venture deck would be like I don't know this is a market cap of crypto this is market cap of gold this is a market cap of equity and I was like this market cap of crypto this is a market cap of gold this is a market cap of equity so it's like crypto didn't change your role and labor is going up and yeah it's kind of sad but it's also I guess like in hindsight it's like it's it's more clear like why is this is the case like crypto like first reason yeah crypto has been very range bound well not all crypto like Bitcoin specifically like has been very range bound like last month or so so it just doesn't look like a volatile asset anymore which is very bizarre but it is basically the precipice actions that a lot of people have gold on the other hand it yeah it just keeps going up so it's it's basically here somehow has like a lot more crypto like courage to exit the characteristics of him and yeah that's been driven by yeah strong demand from retail it's been driven by strong demand from sovereign a sovereign government as well that are basically selling treasuries and buying gold so it's and yeah you want to as a market participants you want to participate in the fun asset not not in some sense it is being range bound so it's kind of yeah sad but I also kind of understand like why is happening add a few more questions about gold but before we do we have to take a very quick break so we can hear from some of the sponsors you make this show possible if you're looking for help with crypto taxes crypto tax girl is offering one hundred dollars off for unchained listeners they provide personalized crypto tax reports and returns and spots before April 15th are limited go to crypto tax girl dot com slash unchained to save one hundred dollars once again the link is crypto tax girl dot com slash unchained so we're back we're talking about gold and I do have one question we're seeing a big surge into a nice gold but one of the oldest investing addages is that people should be fearless when others are fearful and vice versa what do you make of I'm just curious market tining so we people rushing into gold now and I know it's not enough to size they have a meaningful impact on the size of the gold market cap but everyone rushing into gold now to get exposure do you think that they're going to end up being the suckers is this now still the time to buy or are you seeing any traders in particular your platform doing anything unconventional that perhaps is sort of like counter to that prevailing narrative that's worth pointing out yeah I don't necessarily feel like I'm equipped to give advice on that particular thing because yeah it's it's a pretty it's a pretty weird move like we haven't seen move like this or gold by well ever played so much and I would I would take you to say okay you can yeah I was just going to say maybe I can then because I can potenti came wild like and uh with a little fear of consequences but it is interesting I mean you see gold going up to 5,400 5,600 dollars announced and and that just seems to be completely detached from any sort of fundamentals and I understand the whole all the narratives out there that the the based interest rate is lack of confidence in in the US the fact that interest rates are are still uh sort of interest rates are still someone elevated so the bonds aren't necessarily going to a rally point yet that there's a perfect storm of things to really kind of help gold um soar at this point even when central bags actually pulled back on they're buying a little bit last year because they only get too overweight so it is it's one of those I do wonder what's going through the mind of people buying tokenized gold at this point because you're buying in at the very very very top of the market and uh there's plenty of people that have said that months ago and it's still going up so maybe maybe maybe something top of the market but it seems very toppy uh so but at the end of the day maybe that's necessary to kind of get tokenized gold into the marketplace now so that the next time this happens there's always these things to apply it is just something that I've been sort of thinking about so I I didn't want to put you on this but again so that that's just sort of my thoughts I'm curious if you have any reaction to that or if not um again I'd love to know kind of what you're seeing on your platform like how some of the pro traders like are do you see people buying tokenized gold uh or are they going back into Bitcoin or other assets or maybe we're going to get tokenized silver one day I don't know now like we we do see activity both sides um very interestingly we we have seen a lot more activity on the option side with people basically looking for for example to sell covered calls on gold so yeah basically looking to get some extra yield uh which is a pretty decent strategy if you have a target in mind if you think okay like if gold goes up another I don't know $500 I will definitely sell so why not just sell some covered calls anyway so like worst case scenario just get some yield on top um again it kind of depends like back to the original question it also kind of depends like where you are like if you have a portfolio in mind and you just saying okay gold should be I don't know one percent of this portfolio two percent of this portfolio you can just like keep it and see what happens like if you're like me and like I don't know for me gold like I became sort of like reluctant holder of gold like a couple of years ago because I sort of okay like I just need to diversify and now I'm like quite happy with it obviously but yeah I did start selling uh today for example because it does feel like a bit overheated but yeah I'll see I am definitely not selling everything because I do think it's a pretty important part of about one spot for your basic it's a pretty good like under diversification engine yeah they lock in some of those profits now what did you buy with the gold you could just sell for dollars and ask uh I bought some defense stocks okay garna um okay and there's also which I also good up yeah well it's earning season so um What's your reaction to what happened in the Fed with the Fed yesterday holding a rate steady for the first time since last summer? I It seems from I guess chairman cows cross-confidence after the announcement that They're very much a weight and sea mode because they get the sense that the current rates are are not sort of Propel and be kind of forward but they're not too restrictive Conflation is is somewhat steady even if it is elevated and the job market notwithstanding recent now announcements from the likes of I think was Amazon this morning Seems to be healthier as well like like what what is your sense and and Do you do anything or are you seeing any interesting ways that clients or traders that you participate in market places that you participate in how they're sort of aligning around the Fed? You mean first of all like now we have a lot more instruments on prediction markets to Basically, well either bet on those outcomes or like hedge those outcomes. That's pretty interesting development now like Obviously in threat file like more sophisticated traders always had this visibility, but now pretty much everyone on the street Has access to this which is which I think it's a pretty positive development in terms of like Why Fed does what it does? Like the explanation makes sense look at I mean all the assets like still going up. It doesn't sound like it's Yeah, doesn't sound like there is a massive urgency to cut the rate at the moment. So if any centers. Yeah, it feels a bit overheated the fairies and yeah Okay, all right. Well, we're getting close to the end. I have a few more questions, and then we'll wrap up Do you do anything in tokenized credit or is that a marketplace that you're looking at? I'm not not really Basically what we are looking at and basically at inter RWA space as a whole and the basically more like on tokenized money markets like that's that part is quite interesting for us to apply a source Both as a liquidity provider like during normal times, but also the liquidity provider of faster resort during the weekends when like the liquidity is pretty thin and those Tokenized credit like is something that we have sort of like indirect exposure towards like some defy protocols For example like we incubate it one of them called Wildcat So they they actually do tokenized credit for market makers and clearing ourselves But generally I haven't seen that much experimentation from sort of like web to space trickling down and crypto yet on that side But yes, definitely. Yeah, I think it I wouldn't be surprised if you see more more of that Alright, so so what are some of your big expectations for for this year? Like what are a couple of the core themes? I know we've already touched on a few but but what are you expecting this year and in particular? Do you have any sort of counterfactual contradictory thoughts that are sort of against the prevailing narratives that you'd like to share? Well, I guess like The one of one of the key things that that people looking at is obviously like the market structure bill whether it will pass like it doesn't loop very promising Unfortunately, so yeah, our expectation is it's actually more likely at fault pass unfortunately this year And if it doesn't pass this yet Quite unlikely it will actually pass until the end of this administration in a particular because of midterms And yeah midterms is something that I've everyone is basically sort of looking forward to in terms of about basically getting the auto to back and there's we see in like Yeah, how they can participate in the outcome of that whether it's prediction markets or crypto prices they like my last conventional like Opinion would be I don't think that the crypto bear market will last too long Like actually like fairly optimistic relatively cautiously optimistic like despite the market structure bill not pass on like I'm still cautiously optimistic that it will start recapturing the mind mind share closer to the media, but yeah, honestly, we'll see like there are just so many components and play like from AI to geopolitics to fat to pretty much everything else A couple follow up. So what do you think would be the main catalyst for sort of ending the bear market? I think it's all about my structure. It's honestly. It's honestly all about my share. So basically like once yeah, like once Mindshade is going from commodities and AI for whatever reason like people basically always want something new in China that might Potentially go up and crypto is traditionally like it cannot be like not interesting photo long like at some point people will switch back and say okay, like this thing if Bitcoin is ranked bound for another six months at some point people will be like okay That's actually enough and enough is enough and yeah, at some point it should go up. I might as well by now Okay, and I'm curious to what do you think would be the impact on on crypto and your business if market structure doesn't pass I would say for the next like two three years not necessarily a lot Because generally like one positive synthesis administration is where we have very yep, like very outside and friendly regulators and Basically on the SEC and CFTC site. So from that perspective, it's Yeah, it's not like scary to be encrypted at the moment. It's more like Ibsis admin changes like if Democrats are in power like after the next presidential elections Not having this framework to back you up can be potentially devastation because yeah new SEC and new CFTC Yeah, can just do whatever they want because they won't even be constrained by any legislation Like if you get if you can get this legislation done, it can actually be a pretty big constrained factor for Like unfriendly regulators and if you don't have it then unfriendly regulators can be potentially. Yeah, pretty bad I wanted to ask I think one more quick one. I'm curious if you give any thought to X402 that the new protocol Note by by Coinbase to sort of help agents talk to each other and engage in commerce and how they may that may in fact your business is Fiving forward I don't think there's going to be like a massive impact on our business necessarily. So I think it's more yeah Like on the stablecoin side is definitely a like a pretty interesting development Because it's just like further propagates like importance of stablecoins in the digital economy Yeah, it's interesting like I think it's like I do think we'll see a lot more experimentation on the agent side And I think it's one of the more interesting sort of like AI crypto interactions in general Great anything else you'd like to share before we wrap up Yeah, no, not really just I guess looking forward to how the yet developed because yeah like it's last year was Yeah, quite fun in terms of all kinds of events that we've seen especially outside of crypto and so Yeah, it's yeah, do expect to see similarly fun. Yeah, this year Which is great for market makers and it's great for traders who are not afraid to take positions But it might be quite stressful for people who just like like to buy and hold Yeah, absolutely. I'll tell you these are bread and butter I guess right Yep, okay, all right well again, thanks for for joining we'll have to heavy back on thank you to everybody for for watching and listening and tune back in next week for another episode of bits and bips the interview