Speaker 1I think the place where I experience God the most is in the gap between what I think I'm supposed to do or that I'm asked to do and what I can myself do. I can't tell you how much the feeling of being rescued by God, enabled or empowered by a spirit that is bigger than what I have to offer. When my offerings are completely inadequate and yet through the mystery and the power of grace, it's part of something that is sufficient.
Speaker 2Welcome to The Spiritual Life. I'm Fr. Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their prayer and in their daily lives and I am joined by my wonderful producer who is off-site these days, Maggie Van Doren. Maggie, good to be with you even remotely.
Speaker 3It's good to be with you Jim and I am so excited for the guest that we are about to introduce who is none other than
Speaker 2Bishop Mary Ann Budde of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington DC. So you want to tell us a bit about her even though she's pretty well-known?
Speaker 3Yeah, she is very well-known but Bishop Budde was the first woman elected to this position and was consecrated as the ninth Bishop of Washington in November 2011. Prior to her election, Bishop Budde served for 18 years as a rector at St. John's Episcopal Church in Minneapolis. She earned a BA in history at the University of Rochester and went on to earn both a Master's in Divinity and Doctor of Ministry from Virginia Theological Seminary.
Speaker 2She is also the author of several books including Gathering Up the Fragments: Preaching as a Spiritual Practice, Receiving Jesus: The Way of Love, and How We Learn to Be Brave: Decisive Moments in Love and Faith which has been adapted into a young adult book and a picture book for young children. I would say the nation got to know Bishop Budde and the world when she delivered the homily or a sermon at the January 2025 interfaith prayer service at the National Cathedral following Donald Trump's second presidential inauguration and she called for compassion and mercy towards marginalized children. I also thought it
Speaker 3was very interesting in reading her bio that Bishop Budde, when she is not working, enjoys riding her bicycle, spending time with family, and get this Jim, cooking dinner for friends. I think you have to be like a real servant leader, not just to enjoy cooking dinner or having dinner with friends, but cooking dinner for friends. I feel like if you have this friend in life, treasure them.
Speaker 2Well, also, as we say at the interview, she is a bishop and as well as a parent and a grandparent, so it's kind of an unusual trio.
Speaker 3Yeah, that was a really wonderful perspective, I think, to bring to the spiritual life and one that we don't hear too much of. Together, Father Jim and Bishop Budde answer an audience question from Christopher, which is, how can we ensure that our trans child, and we might add any other child who might feel marginalized, knows that they are loved by God and by us?
Speaker 2Yeah, and Bishop Budde, as I said, answers not only as a bishop, but as a parent and a grandparent. It's quite a beautiful answer.
Speaker 3Yeah. Now, if any of you would like to ask Father Jim a question, please go ahead and write to us at thespirituallifeatamericanbishop.com. Well, thanks, Maggie.
Speaker 2And now, on to our conversation with Bishop Mary Ann Budde. Bishop Mary Ann Budde, welcome to The Spiritual Life.
Speaker 1Thank you. Very happy to be with you, truly.
Speaker 2Delighted to have you on. I'm going to start with what might be a strange question I've always wanted to ask you. Can you tell us what would be a distinctive Episcopalian spirituality? I mean, many of our people are Episcopalian, but what would be a distinctive Episcopalian spirituality? I don't know if our listeners are Catholics, but what would constitute an Episcopalian sort of outlook on life?
Speaker 1Not that different. I'm married to a Roman Catholic, by the way, and have spent a lot of my formative years very close to the Roman Catholic Church. And so there's a lot of common ground. It's a sacramental spirituality, so the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, morning and evening prayer, the rootedness in sacramental worship. I would say that most Episcopalians. gravitate toward the Incarnation more readily than they do, perhaps, atonement theory, right? Just the idea of Christ being with us in the world, Christ coming to be among us. It also, because of the way our history formed the tradition, the sense of being a bit of a bridge between polarities. Protestant and Catholic. The idea that we don't root our identity in a particular doctrine or a particular confession, but more in how we gather to pray. So I would say those are some of the striking characteristics of the Episcopal Church.
Speaker 2Well, that's a great summary. For those who may not be familiar with it, can you define atonement theory, since you mentioned that?
Speaker 1Yeah. And I thought of one other thing that's true about it. It's not true about us, but I'll start with the atonement theory. There are a lot of different theories of the atonement and at-one-men, what it is that Christ was actually accomplishing when he died for us on the cross. I mean, how do we understand that? And much of our sacramental theology talks about that as a sacrificial act, and what does that exactly mean? And so it's not that we shy away from that. We spend our Lent and Holy Week and Easter observances grounded in it. But I would say that the aspect of God revealed to us in the Incarnation is a very universally grounding place for our tradition. The other thing I wanted to say, because I think it's really important, is that we are, at heart, a democratic institution. While I have a lot of the trappings of authority that would make it seem like I could kind of make all the decisions or speak with definitive authority, most of our decisions, important decisions, are made on a democratic basis. So that's an interesting part of our spiritual tradition.
Speaker 2Yeah. For those who don't know, also, Elizabeth Johnson has done a lot of work on atonement theory, as I'm sure you know. True. Yes. And the difference between the different ways of looking at it. And the, I would say, a more. Right. early way would be that God, in a sense, asked Jesus to sacrifice Himself to atone for the sins of humanity. Right. And Beth Johnson looks at that a little differently because of what it says about, you know, God the Father and God the Creator and His relationship with the Son. Now, before we go any further and talk about your spiritual life and a few other things, I'd like to ask you to talk about something that's been very meaningful to me, and I've been really looking forward to asking you about it. Sure. And it's about the termination of the remains of Matthew Sheppard, the young gay man who was murdered in a hate crime. You know, I was so moved that it was at the National Cathedral. Can you tell us a little bit about how that came to be and maybe a little bit of the background?
Speaker 1Sure. Well, to remind those listening, or perhaps to tell them for the first time, Matthew Sheppard was a young college student. He was murdered. He was an Episcopalian, and his parents had raised him in the church. And so, his funeral was in an Episcopal church. And his death was one of those marking moments for us as a country and certainly for those who identify as gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual. There was just a real sense that I know a lot of people that his death was a catalytic moment for them in terms of their commitment to their own lives and their own identity. It started a whole new movement in the wider country. His parents were never confident that if they were to bury his remains in a local graveyard, that the grave would not be desecrated. And so, they held his remains. They kept them somewhere in their home for all those years. They were particularly close to Bishop Gene Robinson, who was the first bishop of our denomination. Openly gay bishop, who was consecrated bishop. And so, at one point, they were looking for a place where they could be confident that Matthew could be safe, his remains could be safe. And Bishop Robinson, who lives in Washington, D.C., and is close to all of us, suggested Washington National Cathedral. But before he did so, he reached out to the dean, Randy Hollerith, who reached out to me and asked, "How do we feel about this?" And it was one of the easiest decisions we ever made. We do have his remains in a sealed crypt. There's no access to it without, you know, seeking permission and having the crypt open. But there is a plaque outside that. And his internment ceremony was one of the most moving ceremonies I've ever been a part of. The place was completely filled with people who. Almost came on pilgrimage to be a part of it. And we still have people come through the church. church asking where his remains are and where they might go and pay their respects and say
Speaker 2their prayers. Very beautiful. What made it in particular so moving for you?
Speaker 1The grief and the gratitude. Every once in a while, we have been, as a whole, not entirely so, but in general, our church has become increasingly confident in our identity as a place where LGBTQ persons are safe and welcome and where their leadership is prized in our community. But the getting to this place has not been easy, and it's not been a uniform experience. And so people came carrying a lot of their own grief, as well as the memories evoked by Matthew's murder. And I felt that. And also, Eugene Robinson preached, and I think he, at some point, he just said to, you know, said, Matthew, welcome home. You're safe here. And I think all of us just felt the magnitude of what it feels like when you have not felt safe to know that there is a sacred community rooted in a desire to follow God, that we are believed that you are cherished and you are beloved, you are welcome, and you are safe. And so I think that's what made it so moving for me. And I think that's what made it so important for me. And I think that's touchstone with a political debate that might in fact be a moral or communal issue we have to talk about.
Speaker 2Yeah, well put. I mean, when I preach, for example, I will not use the words Democrat, Republican, President Trump, Vice President Harris, President Biden, those kinds of things. And by the same token, you're right. There are certain things that are in the public eye, like migrants and refugees, LGBTQ people, that I think you can allude to subtly in a way that just sort of encourages people to think about them. This is what Jesus did with the parables, right? I think you're right, because I think that otherwise you divide the congregation, right? And you make people feel unwelcome in their own churches.
Speaker 1And people still, to be honest, people sometimes tell me they still feel that way, because whatever I've done or said, and I have other statements that I make not in the pulpit in response to things, and people, you know, they have their opinions about this or that. And I try, try, try, try to be as careful as I can without sidestepping part of my responsibility. And to be honest, I take a lot of inspiration from the Roman Catholic bishops in the U.S. and how they, the statements that they make. And I, in fact, before the service in 2025, there was a statement, I think from the bishops in California, about some aspect of immigration policy. And I remember thinking, you know, if they can do it, I think I can do it too. You know, it was, it was, they gave me courage to say, there are people in this country who do not feel a part of the America that's being defined. And more than that, they are being dehumanized. And as a Christian leader, I think that needs to be named. I'm glad you hear you say that.
Speaker 2I feel the same way about the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and the bishops individually. I think they have been great on migration and refugee questions. And, you know, with some of them going to protest and celebrate mass and, you know, particularly some of the recent bishops that, um, Pope Leo has appointed have been very strong. And, uh, I think it's great. And I mean, you know, Jesus asks us to, you know, welcome the stranger. It's pretty clear in the gospels. And I think Pope Leo does the same thing. He preaches the gospel. And again, if it has political implications, you know, so be it.
Speaker 1Well, and he's been so clear on issues of war and peace and Cardinal McElroy here in Washington has also picked that as a theme that he, he speaks of most eloquently. And I, I'm just, I'm, I'm eternally grateful.
Speaker 2You know, as you're speaking, Bishop, I was thinking, um, because you're in DC and because you have a, you know, I would say, uh, you know, it could be a congregation that doesn't agree with one another. There's so much animus and mistrust these days. What do you tell people who have a difficult time with, uh, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you? Do you have any kind of go-to bits of advice?
Speaker 1Well, um, well, first of all, I acknowledge that Jesus, gave us some commandments that are pretty hard. You know, if it were easy, we wouldn't be having the conversation about it. So, but to say as a Christian, it's negotiable when Jesus was so clear is, is problematic. At the same time, I, um, I have been so inspired and find, um, great kind of instruction myself in the work of, uh, Tim Shriver and others who have, have created what, they, they've, small group of people have actually joined forces with them whenever I can, but they've basically said that the, the most significant issue in our country right now, from their perspective, isn't the fact that we, um, disagree with each other, but it's how we talk about each other when we disagree. And they have called it the culture of contempt, which is a phrase I think Arthur Brooks and others have used. And their point is that the antidote to contempt is dignity, to treat people and to speak of people with, um, keeping in mind, their inherent dignity as a child of God. And they actually have a scale that helps us monitor our speech and that of other people, according to gradations of contempt or expressions of dignity. Whenever I'm in a conversation about how we speak of other people, how we pray for them, I point to that because it shows us how easily our own perceptions, our own speech has been informed by a culture that is, um, encouraging us to be mad at one another at all times, particularly with those who see the world differently. And what that's done to us, it's coarsened our speech and it has made us less forgiving. It is, it's taught us to assume the worst about people that we don't know. It's made us less curious, made us less open to the ways that our positions might be mistaken. And so on that scale, let's, if you're going to, you're praying for someone who you would, you are, you consider an enemy, like that's the hardest work, but why not start with some of the places where you just really disagree? You wouldn't call them an enemy, but you certainly wouldn't call them an ally or a friend. And what is it like to have an authentic relationship with people and try to understand and realize that we're in this together, right? Both in church and in the country. And so when I think about advice, I try not to give too much advice, but that's a tool that I gladly share because it's been so helpful to me. And I, I talk about it whenever I can.
Speaker 2And it is hard. I mean, the Jesuit, what we call the presupposition, which you've probably heard of is always giving people the benefit of the doubt. And it's, it's very difficult, but I really like that sort of the gradations of contempt. I find that so often in the Catholic church, unfortunately, if you disagree in the slightest with somebody, you're a bad Catholic, you're a bad Catholic, you're a bad Catholic, you're a bad Catholic, you're a bad Catholic, you're a bad Catholic, in what are called salon dinners with Tim Bush, who's the head of the Knapp Institute. And he brings together people from, let's say, the progressive wing and the traditional wing. I generally provide the names for the progressive wing. And we just have mass, rosary, and dinner. And it's just about becoming friends. I've quoted this before when I was at the Synod, Cardinal Timothy Radcliffe quoted St. John Paul II, who said, affective collegiality precedes effective collegiality. And so- That's right. If you really want to have some sort of conversation, you need to at least try to be friends and try to understand the other person.
Speaker 1Try to understand. And it doesn't mean agreement. It doesn't mean necessarily a lessening of the passion you bring to your own positions. But for me, it helps keep the full humanity of people in the room. And also reminds me that there are parts of my position too that are perhaps not as examined as they might be. And they might have that I could be wrong on some things. There may be some correctives that I'm not aware of. And who better sees our blind spots than people who see the world differently? So just as a self-corrective, as well as a curiosity, I don't think we can just eliminate the people who see the world differently. And we certainly know what it looks like when we start speaking of them, of anyone, in terms that calls into question their humanity. And it can be as simple as I don't understand these people or those people, right? Well, I mean, how many times have I said that? I just don't understand. Well, who are those people, right? And why don't I understand? Like there's, well, why don't you work to understand? Like what are some ways to put the onus back on me to be more engaged and perhaps also more careful in my own speech so that I am not unnecessarily activating the immediate responses of other people, right? Is there a way that I can nuance what I'm saying so people can actually hear me and then I can hear them in return?
Speaker 2Well, it's funny you should talk about non-negotiables because, you know, Jesus says, judge not. And I think that it's so hard for people. It is such a, sometimes I find on social media, if I write, you know, Jesus said, judge not, that gets so many pushbacks, you know, well, what about this? What about that? What about that? What about that? What about that? What about their actions? You know, and I understand we have to look at people's actions and in a sense say, you know, does that make sense? Is it moral? But it's judging the person, the individual, which I think is what you're talking about. So thank you. We're going to pause for a short break, but we'll be back in a minute.
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Speaker 2I want to talk about your own calling and your own vocation to ordained ministry. I did a little bit of a deep dive into your life. When did you first think about ordained ministry?
Speaker 1I was in college and it felt, I was both drawn to the possibility and it felt absolutely impossible. And in part because in that, in the last years of my teenage life, I was worshiping in the church that my mother was attending and that I had attended as a child and then came back to later when I went back to live with her. And he was so influential a person that I could never imagine being that kind of person. You know, I just couldn't imagine being like that. It was relatively early in women's ordination in our church but But I didn't, I have to say, it never occurred to me that I couldn't be ordained because I was a woman. And that's pretty remarkable because we first officially accepted ordaining women in 1976, and I'm guessing this was 1984. So it wasn't, you know, that many years later. But I began thinking about it. And then, as is often the case, people mentioned it to me, asked me if I considered it. I was taking as many religious courses as I could in the last two years of college. I started attending and taking, you know, just a few courses at the local seminary, which was an ecumenical seminary. And people planted that seed. Now, I knew that I wasn't ready to act on it because the process of being ordained in our tradition is lengthy, and it's a fairly rigorous examination process. And I knew I wasn't ready for that. So I found a job in my first two years out. I was out of college working for the Methodist Church in a social service agency in Tucson, Arizona. And that, it was a just profound experience for me. I was working with refugees coming up from the border in, from the Central American wars, as well as people from the Rust Belt coming into the Southwest because of so many companies and factories closing in the Northeast. So I was doing a lot of research. So I was doing a lot of research, and that was really, really important, growing and working. I also realized that even though I love the Methodist Church, and I do, and I love the Roman Catholic Church, and I do, I realized that I truly was an Episcopalian. I mean, it just was like, it was like middle C on the piano. I just kept on coming back to it. And so at some point, as I was finishing up that, that two-year internship job is when I presented myself to the Episcopal Church for ordination.
Speaker 2So quite early on. Now, you had said. That you couldn't imagine yourself like him. Were you talking about the pastor of your parish growing up?
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, I was. Yeah. And some important things happened to me in those, in the intervening years. Maybe the one of the more significant is that we began to have some real differences of understanding. I was becoming more and more influenced by liberation theology and the social gospel. I was very active in the Catholic worker movement, where there was a Catholic worker house near our house. So I was. I was assuming, and this is during the, you know, the, the, the martyrdom of Oscar, Oscar Romero. I mean, there's just a lot happening that was informing my spiritual consciousness that he did not understand or agree with. And so I was living with the tension. He still loved me. I loved him, but we were living with a real tension. And so I began to get some ego separation from him. And then at the same time, I, I think I became more comfortable within myself and recognizing, although I still had a lot to learn. I was just 24. I began to sense like, I, I don't know if I can be a priest, but I am, I am confident that I can present myself to the church. And the Methodists were like, Hey, if they don't want you, we'll take you. I mean, they loved me. And, and I, you know, it was like, and I, and I knew at that point, well, if I wanted to be a social worker, I could do that. You know, I had, I began to feel like, okay, I have options. So if they turn me down, I'll be devastated, but I'll be okay. And I think that gave me enough confidence. To go ahead. And to my absolute amazement, the church said, yes. And so I was sponsored for ordination when I, the latter half of my 24th year.
Speaker 2Wow. So early. You know, I'm glad you brought these two concepts up because I know a lot of people sort of misunderstand them. And I know this is going to sound like a MDiv question for you, but how would you define or describe for people two concepts, liberation theology, and social justice or the social gospel?
Speaker 1Sure. Well, I think it's all a point of reference and that liberation theology, as I came to experience it, was a way of understanding not only the world, but even understanding a glimpse of the character of God through the experience of the most impoverished people in, in, in your context. And so, of course, in Central America, it was. the, the, the, the campesinos and the, and the, the illiterate people of the villages that were, and the countryside that were being formed by priests who were asking them to reflect on gospel texts within their own understanding and how that shaped a whole school of theology. And because I was working with many of the same populations, I was working with, we were assisting refugees as they were coming up from the border. And we were dealing with a lot of really, really poor people during a real spike in homelessness in the early 1980s. It was a way of understanding the world. And, you know, and as you know, the Roman Catholic bishops put it in terms of that preferential option, not that God didn't love everybody, but that there is a particular form of compassion and responsibility that calls for an addressing of issues of justice. It called a lot into it. In fact, including the life I'm living now, because I don't, I'm not living among the poor anymore. And so I have to live with that tension and come to my peace about that. But it is a, it is an understanding, I think, consistent with the gospels that if you're going to understand that the power of Jesus's love for humanity, you need to spend time and perhaps even in your recognize your own poverty, but also to spend, spend time looking at the world through the lens of the most disadvantaged or the most outcast people in a given society.
Speaker 2Yeah. There's that great quote from John Sobrino. I might have to paraphrase it, something like the primary recipients of the gospel or of evangelization of the poor, right?
Speaker 1I think it's important to acknowledge too. And I think it was, I think I first came across this in the writings of Howard Thurman most forcefully, but just to be careful as someone who was not poor, even if I chose voluntary poverty in stages of my life, not to treat the poor as a category of humanity, right? But to recognize both universal poverty and then the particular forms, how does the gospel inform the experience of people? What does the gospel have to say, as he would put it, to those whose backs are against the wall? Like what is the gospel if you are poor? And that I think is a different question than one of large, and as important as largesse is and serving the poor, but it is being among people who have very little and understanding the world and Jesus's love through their eyes.
Speaker 2That's a great insight. I'm glad you brought that up. And also glad you brought up the idea of the poor as not this sort of nameless, faceless mass of people, the poor. I remember when I was working with refugees in East Africa, I had this image, as a lot of us do of refugees and what refugees are like. Right. And the first refugee I interviewed was a guy from Somalia. And I had studied some Swahili and I thought, well, this guy is obviously some nomad or some cattle farmer or whatnot. And like a lot of refugees, he was dressed very simply because he had fled his country. And I said to him in Swahili, what language would you like to speak in? A little pompously on my part. And he said, well, he said in perfect English, we can speak in English or Swahili. We can also speak in French or Latin. Or German. He was a professor of philosophy at the University of Mogadishu. And that one instance just kind of exploded my idea of what the poor or the refugees are like. What's the pushback? Where does that come from on social justice and liberation theology? Is it a misunderstanding? Is it a, is it as kind of a threat to people's lifestyles? Or what do you think? Where do you think that comes from? Because it is so powerful in some corners.
Speaker 1It is very powerful. And, um, I would guess, uh, some discomfort of, I mean, again, it's hard to, it's hard to generalize even that, but it, I think there is a, um, an unwillingness to be excluded from the gospel message of love. There is a feeling that it aligns itself with a particular political or socioeconomic ideology that may feel antithetical to the gospel in their understanding. And I think there's some legitimacy there. Every spiritual movement in the society has allies outside of that spiritual community. And a lot of the tension comes from who your allies are. And if your allies are opposed to each other, it's harder for different religious groups to see one another without assuming that all of the things that you object to in the, in your allied groups are not a reflection of who you are. Um, I think that's true. And, um, I think that's true in our politics today, that it's, it's one of the reasons why Christians have such a hard time talking to each other is because we're assuming that no matter if we're at whatever wing we're on, that we ascribe to all the things that are being said by the most extreme people on various polls that aren't particularly religious at all, but we're allied with them or they see us as allies. And so anyway, I think it's complicated. And, um, so that's one reason I would say. Um, and it is revolutionary. It is calling for a kind of, you know, kind of change that would make all of us uncomfortable in some real way. And, uh, you know, who wants that? So, I mean, I, I guess.
Speaker 2Who wants that? Right. They did. They didn't want it from Jesus.
Speaker 1That's right. I mean, it's hard. I mean, if it were easy, if this were if and I try really, you know, and of course, I'm a person of tremendous privilege now. And I mean, I, I live in a completely different world now. And so I have to be careful what I say that isn't, you know, the just the, you know, living in a glass house kind of thing. I also have to be mindful of how I live, right, how I live in this world. I think the hardest thing for all of us, frankly, Jim, is if we aren't in a posture of self-reflection and self-awareness and regular confession of our own sins and attempts to make amendment of life. It's very hard to be in the presence of people who are calling into question those very things that we don't want to acknowledge within ourselves. Right. And that's a universal thing. That's not a rich, poor thing. That's not a red, blue thing. It's just hard. And I think there's a lot of that that gets then politicized when, in fact, it's really like, oh, please don't talk about that.
Speaker 2Right. Well, speaking of all that, what keeps you grounded in all of this? What are some of your spiritual practices, would you say?
Speaker 1Well, let me put it this way. I, I, I feel like God. Through the living Christ. And the power of the spirit keeps me grounded. My practices are less than perfect. Right. And so if I were to count on my practices to keep me grounded, I would fail because my practices are not enough to keep me grounded. I'm aware of a God who meets me more than halfway in everything. Now, that said, I do my best to stay close to the word of God. Revealed in Scripture, I do my best to to sit in prayer. I do my best in all those things, and my best is not good enough. And so sometimes I fall far from groundedness and I experience God most graciously in those moments, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2It does. What's your what's your prayer like? I'm curious, is it mainly with Scripture or.
Speaker 1Well, you know, I preach almost every week. And so and sometimes more than once a week. So I am always reflecting on a particular text and doing so in the context of a particular for a particular purpose. And yet, thankfully, and this happened to me early in my ordained life, I began to experience the preparation process for that work as an enormously nourishing part of my own relationship with God. And that's helped me preach. In such a way that it feels that we have come some way together long before I am saying anything before a group of people. And so that's that's huge for me. And it's it's constant because this this rhythm of preach, I don't know how often you preach, but it's pretty regular for me. And so that that's that's a big part of it. I am I'm in a new stage of my life now. I had a long stretch where my practices were pretty steady. In the morning, combined with some exercise and some meditation and some scripture reading. And then about three years ago, I was invited to write a book, which and I had written little books before, but this one was a really big one. And I realized that if I was going to finish this book, I was going to have to dedicate a lot of time to it that was going to take up just about everything else, right, including my morning time. That was a permanent change, like something permanently changed. And my morning makeup. And so now I'm learning how to reintroduce other practices that are important to me, but recognizing that my mornings now in that early, early time, I'm usually working on something that is of a writing nature, if that makes sense. And so now my I was talking to my spiritual director about this, you know, because I said to him, I can't I can't I don't fit it all. I try to fit everything in the day, but I can't exactly tell you when it's going to change. It's going to happen. And he smiled patiently. I think he considers this like a temporary thing, but I don't know. I've read many of your books, so I have a sense of what your practices are. But I'd love to hear from you how if they if you find them changing as you move through different epics of your life, because I'm finding in my 60s now that what was fruitful for me even 10 years ago, I have to adjust and modify just because life feels so difficult. So different to me now.
Speaker 2Thanks for asking. I find that my prayer itself changes. I always go back to that quite funny. I think it was Francis DeSales quote. How often should you pray a half an hour, except if you're busy, then pray an hour. Yeah, right. It's very challenging. So my own practice is prayer in the morning mass with my community, usually, you know, five o'clock, excuse me, six o'clock. And then the examination of conscience. I think it's realistic. Just to admit that, you know, depending on how busy you are, that can expand or shrink. Like on the weekends, I pray more because I have more time. Right. And I always do my eight day retreat, which I just completed a couple of weeks ago. I think that the change for me has been and I'm curious if this resonates with you. I pray an awful lot with Ignatian contemplation on retreat. You know, imagining yourself in the scripture prayer and all that. I find that's very difficult to do day to day. I mean, I can do it, but it comes in flashes. And usually it's just sitting in the presence of God. And it's very simple. But, yeah, I mean, I would say that my practices have stayed the same. It waxes and wanes in terms of time, depending on how busy I am. But it's mainly the prayer that has changed. The prayer is just more simple. It's just being in God's presence. And I'll tell you something funny. When I was a novice, I said to my spiritual director that not much had happened in my prayer. And I said, all that's happening is that I'm just sitting in God's presence. Like, it's kind of a waste of time. And he just laughed and said, oh, yeah, being in God's presence is a waste of time. So I've become a lot more sort of gentle with myself and with other people, you know, where the prayer kind of changes.
Speaker 1Yeah. Well, you know, I came into my ordained life at the same time I became, the same time I got married and became a parent. And that kind of taught me early on that I was going to have to be flexible, right? There just wasn't going to be set patterns. There just wasn't going to be patterns that would last because with children and with ordained ministry, the patterns just kept on shifting. And so I made my peace with it early on. I've been surprised as I've entered into my elder years how drawn I am to, like, I was never one for contemplative prayer. I was more of a prayer on the go kind of person. And also it was busy. There was just a lot to work out. And I was bringing it to God. And so now practicing the presence of God, I'm not, I wouldn't say that I feel particularly good at it. And I am increasingly drawn to it. And especially as I contemplate mortality, you know, as I imagine, you know, I've had people very close to me die, particularly my mother. And as I walked with her through her last years and then imagine her now, you know, and just, just holding the mystery of death and what lies beyond death, just, it just, it just sits closer to me now. And I'm not interested in fighting that. I'm actually very curious about how to become, as you've described, and you were able to describe as a novice, being in the presence of God.
Speaker 2Let me ask you. Where do you, outside of prayer, where do you most experience God in your day-to-day life? What kinds of things move you or remind you of God's presence?
Speaker 1Yeah. Well, true confession. And I think that makes sense. I feel more than anything, which is why I was saying before about my practices, I can't tell you how much the feeling of being rescued by God, enabled or empowered by a spirit that is bigger than what I have to offer, when my offerings are completely inadequate and yet through the mystery and the power of grace, it's part of something that is sufficient. I feel like the parables and the teachings aren't just stories, as you know, they're the ways we experience the world. And so that's a big chunk of it. And then the ones you would expect, you know, the beauty of nature and the consolations of good friends, all the things that God gives us to just remind us that this is a good and lovely world and God asks us to delight in that. And then I would say finally, whenever I am able to sit with someone. Who is in real distress and I'm given the grace to be there. I feel God's presence, not fixing anything, but allowing us, I just feel it. And so those are some of the ways. And if you have time, I will show you this 6,000 pictures of my grandchildren.
Speaker 2That's great. Well, that's wonderful. You know, I really like that idea, which I don't think I've ever heard before, of the kind of distance between or the gap between what God might be asking you to do, as I understand it, and what you feel like you're able to do. I think that's really beautiful. I feel, I don't think I've ever had anyone sort of identify it that way. And I feel God's presence there, too. It's a kind of invitation, you know, come closer. At least that's how I experience.
Speaker 1And recognize your dependence on me, you know. So there is a prayer in the Book of Common Prayer, a general thanksgiving. And one portion of the prayers is an expression of gratitude to God. We thank you, God, for the work and accomplishment. We thank you for the accomplishments that satisfy and delight us. We also thank you for our failures and disappointments that lead us to acknowledge our dependence on you alone, right? And to have that couplet, right? And, you know, it's hard to thank God for your failures and disappointments, but there is something about standing in that place of vulnerability and where you are, what is being asked of you is more than you have to give or more than I have to give. And sometimes, by grace, that gap is met and needs are met. And it would be the height of hubris to say, well, that was me, right? Because it clearly wasn't. At the same time, there are other times standing in that very same gap, again, speaking from experience where I just fall flat on my face and I fail. And yet, the sun still rises, the world continues. I learn from it. It may be a very painful thing, harm may be done, all of the things that happen, and yet, I have learned something in both instances of my dependence on God alone.
Speaker 2Now, I love that. Before we go to our audience question to wrap up this conversation, which I wish we could continue, I want to share something that my friend, you might know him, Greg Shendon. He's campus minister down at Georgetown. He's a Jesuit priest and a good friend. Yeah. And I was complaining about some of the same stuff. I can't do this. I can't do that. This isn't working out. And he said to me, it's just a line we were texting. He said, "That's an honor. That's an awful lot about you, Jim." And I go back to that. It was so helpful. I was like, "Oh, yeah, God's kind of helping me as well." Yeah. Bishop Buddy, this has been so great. We end with an audience question, and I'll answer it, and then you can chime in. This is from Christopher, and he asks, "How can we ensure that our transgender child," and we might add any other child who feels marginalized. "knows that they are loved by us and by God?" So how can we ensure our trans child or any other child who might be marginalized knows that they are loved by us and by God? Now I would say, Christopher, if you're speaking as a parent, the first thing to do would be to love them yourself, obviously, as you do, just asking that question. To know that they're accepted, that God knows them intimately. I love that Psalm 139, "You knit me together in my mother's womb." Yeah. And I think for the transgender person, to really accompany them and listen to them. One of the people that we feature on our site, outreach.faith, is Sister Louisa Derwin, who works with trans people. I would also say there's lots of resources there. But she says, "Really believe trans people when they're telling you their stories." I think that was really helpful for me. Believe them as they're telling you about their stories and they're telling you about their lives. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's important to accompany them and listen to them, even though it might be challenging for you as a parent. So that's probably the best I can do. So Bishop Budde, this is a question from Christopher. How can we ensure that our trans child, and I would add any other child who might feel marginalized, knows that they are loved by us and
Speaker 1loved by God? Thank you. And thank you, Christopher, for that important question. I resonated with what you said, Jim. Yeah. Yeah. I think what I can add as a parent would be to ensure that your child knows that they are prized, just absolutely prized, that you delight in them, that you enjoy their company, you find them infinitely wonderful to be around, and at the same time, to acknowledge that theirs is a lonely path and will require of them great care. Yeah. Great courage. And the piece that I would add is that it's very important, particularly for children and adolescents, for them to have people that they can look to as models of a integrated life. And so to pay attention to the people you might surround them with, it would be very important to find a faith community where they're. Yeah. in the same place. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a very important point. I think that's a very important point. Maggie, what did you
Speaker 2take away from Bishop Budde?
Speaker 3Well, it was an amazing conversation on so many fronts. And in a personal way, I was really struck by her prophetic preaching and how it can sometimes arouse discomfort for those of us sitting in the pews who have to grapple with injustice that is happening in the world. And really consider our own role in that. And so the question that occurred to me is, how do we balance kind of needing comfort from God as we deal with our own personal struggles and also being open to tolerating the discomfort that comes for caring about other people's struggles?
Speaker 2Yeah, it's a great question. You know, we've often talked about the gospel as comforting the afflicted and afflicting the uncomfortable. Yeah. And sometimes we're one but not the other. I think all of us feel the need for comfort in different ways. And, you know, as you were asking that question, Maggie, I was thinking, you know, Jesus does both. I mean, he tries to comfort people. He heals people. He gives them preaching that will help them, you know, don't worry about tomorrow, those kinds of things. You know, he's a comforter. He's the comforter. But he also challenges people, right? It's not enough to be comforted. He challenges them and asks them to go, you know, and care for people who are on the margins who are struggling. So I think it's a tension. I think it's a tension for preachers, too. You can't always be preaching about go out and serve the poor, go out and serve the poor, because first of all, people will get tired of it, even though it's a timeless message. People do need a word of comfort. But you also can't just be sort of comforting people. So I think it's a balance. And I look, I think, you know, as any Christian, we need to be. I'm not assured that God loves us, but we need to sort of go out of ourselves. So that's how I see it. It is a tension. And I think if you err too much in one direction, you know, it's all about self-help. And if you err too much in the other direction, you know, you're sort of ignoring people's natural need for comfort and healing,
Speaker 3I would say. How do you think that focusing on the suffering of those on the margins actually does the impact your own experience of suffering or your own connection to God?
Speaker 2That's a great question. And I think it is by giving us perspective, right? So when I am feeling sorry for myself and I meet someone who's on the margins or, you know, read a story about them, it puts it in perspective. I'll give you an example. I was walking to the drugstore the other day, feeling sorry for myself that I had a cold. And I passed a homeless person on the street who was just passed out. And I thought. You know, I need some perspective, right? I have a roof over my head. I have doctors. I can go to the CVS and get the medicine. So I think it gives us perspective and it hopefully does more than that. It moves us to action. action. You know, in the end, I did, you know, give this guy 20 bucks. So I think perspective is really important. And I think, you know, for a lot of us who, you know, as Bishop Buddy was saying, live, you know, fairly comfortable lives, we have to have that perspective. And again, we have to be afflicted or challenged by the gospel. And that's, I mean, you know, just go back to the gospels and you see it over and over again. So I think perspective, I would say, is the
Speaker 3answer. I would only add to that beautiful answer that the times when I have felt consoled by God, those times of immense suffering have, in a way, prepared me to relate, to sympathize with, experience greater compassion for those who are suffering in similar ways. You know, that there's some sort of spiritual alchemy that can happen that way too.
Speaker 2Oh, absolutely. I mean, if you've been sick or, gosh, we have a lot of people who have been sick, we have a lot of people who have a guy in our house who just fractured his heel without getting into it. You know, I broke my wrist a couple of years ago, so I sympathize with him. Absolutely. And I think, you know, we have to remember, you know, we have Jesus Christ who himself suffered in all different ways, right, including physically, you know, on the cross and in other ways, who sympathizes with us, right? We have a Savior who understands us intimately. Now, Maggie, these are great questions. Are you going to write about this for us on American Media?
Speaker 3These are the very questions that I will take up in the article that we have out with this episode. And you can find a link to that in the show notes and at AmericanMedia.org.
Speaker 2Yeah, I really want to encourage people to read Maggie's articles. I'm so happy you're doing it this season, and hopefully not for the last season.
Speaker 3Yeah, no, it's good to turn on these questions, and I'm grateful for your accompaniment in them.
Speaker 2Well, thanks so much, Maggie, for that great conversation. The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin is produced by Maggie Van Doren, Sebastian Gomes, and myself. Production assistance from Kevin Christopher Robles and Alexandra Pfau. Adam Buckmuller engineered the show. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can follow me across social media at JamesMartinSJ. Thank you so much, and God bless you.
Speaker 5Hi, I'm Colleen Dully, host of Inside the Vatican. If you want a deeper look at the stories shaping Pope Leo's Vatican, plus the context, analysis, and developments we don't always have time to get into on the podcast, sign up for my new newsletter, Vatican Notebook. You can find it at AmericanMagazine.org slash Vatican hyphen Notebook. That's AmericanMagazine.org slash Vatican hyphen Notebook.
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