Billie Eilish: On growing up

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This is not the future we were promised. Like hell that out for a tagline for the show. From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Jordan North and I'm William Henson. And together we host Hellpice Sex in My Boss, a podcast that combines Williams World of Etc. tips with Jordans, special Northern charm. We help navigate the everyday challenges of modern life, like how to tell someone that their breath smells like death. And of course, what should you do if you accidentally sex with your boss? Just search for Hellpice Sex in My Boss on BBC Sounds and help us change your life for the better. Or potentially maybe make things worse. It could go either way. Just to let you know, this episode does contain some strong language. If that's not for you right now, there are plenty of other episodes of at your service that you can listen to on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. (Music) Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Do Aliepa at your service. How have you guys all been enjoying this season so far? I really can't believe that we're nearly at the end. It's been a real pleasure getting to share all these conversations with you and I can absolutely promise you that today's episode in particular is really, really special. (Music) Today, we're talking about growing up. Even though today's guests and I have gone through this quite publicly, everyone will go through this journey from childhood into adulthood at some point. I don't know about you, but a lot of the time, I feel like I'm making it up as I go and I don't know if I necessarily feel like I've grown up some days. But I know I've changed a lot and I know I understand myself better than I did at 15 or 18 or even compared to my early 20s. So to talk about this, I rang up someone I've admired for many years who I knew would be able to share so much experience on this topic. Since she started releasing music, I've been cheering Billie Eilish on, watching as she's grown into an incredible, powerful, thoughtful and brilliant woman, who uses her voice to spot like causes she holds close to her heart. As someone who's grown up in front of the world, she knows how to answer the questions I have better than anyone. Let's get into it. Here's my conversation with Billie Eilish. Billie, hey, hi, Doa. What's going on? How you doing? I'm good. I'm very good. How's your day going? It's going really well. It's been a bit of a hectic day, but I'm really excited to talk to you. Thank you so much for doing this with me. Of course, I'm stoked to be on your podcast. This is very cute. It's sweet. Are you in LA right now? Yeah. I just got back from Latin America like a week ago. So I'm just settling back in. It's nice. How was that? Was the tour crazy? It was, I mean, dude, you know them over there, man. It's a wild ride. It's like, yeah, the show we did in, because we were in South America for like three weeks. The show we did in Argentina was like one of the best shows of my life. It was fucking insane. Have you toured out there? Yeah, I did. I mean, there's nothing like it. The energy is just absolutely amazing. It's one of my favorite places to go and perform. But you know what's crazy was I just recently I saw a video of you. And you know, Billie, I've admired you for so long. And I feel like we were both kind of coming up at the same time and growing up in front of our fans when we started our music careers kind of in the late 2010s. And I just saw a video which was so cute. It was like your first performance and you were performing to about 10, 20 people, which is surreal to think about now when you see all the videos of you performing. And like when you look back at that time, what do you remember most fondly and what are you glad to have left in the past? Great question. It's so many, so many, so many things. I feel like a thing that I missed from that time. I mean, it was just so fresh. It was just so new and so, you know, I felt like I was like a fucking alien. And suddenly someone was showing me the planet for the first time and being like, oh, this is what people do when they do this. And this is, you know, I just felt like I was like being introduced to a world that I had never been in before. And it was unbelievably scary and shocking and incredible and awful and all the things as you know. But I think like, you know, I think there was just such an innocence to it. I remember just, I guess I missed the like feeling, how would I put it? Like the fans and I, it was so, it was just so pure and so, it was just very raw at the time. And we were just, we were just like a bunch of, a bunch of 15-year-olds, you know, it was nothing like I'm the artist and they're the fans. It was just like, yeah, we're just, we're just hanging out and I'm, I'm here with you guys and you happen to be at my show, but we're just hanging out. So we're buddies. And, you know, the problem is like over time, you lose that. And also, you know, I don't really have a choice because when you, as you know, this is, I have a question for you too, by the way, which is like, you know, anything. There's this like line between not mainstream and then mainstream. And I mean, it's a privilege to be able to say that you became mainstream, but it's also kind of like, damn, you're like, you kind of lose the secret. Oh, I'm, who, who's that artist? Like your favorite artist is who? And then it's more of like a, nobody wants to have their favorite artist be a mainstream artist, which I get. I mean, I was like that too. And then it's just this weird like, you're really grateful for it, but then you're also like, but remember how special it was when I was just your little secret and I was just this like random bitch. But yeah, it was like, there was no expectations also. So like, there was, there was a different kind of excitement of also like being discovered for the first time and the same feeling of like, when you do discover your favorite artists, but yeah, I watched your Netflix David Letterman and my next guest needs no introduction show and the way that you explained writing a song and then never really thinking about what it's like to have to then put it out and then perform it and have to be on stage and do it in front of lots of people is something I can definitely relate to. But it was really interesting when you're talking about doing your first show and I'm guessing maybe it was this one that I saw the video of and you were just saying, you know, you never really thought about what comes after the writing of the songs. You know, you want to make a, you want to put a song, you put it out and then you're like, oh, fuck, I have to get up and perform it and be in front of a crowd and it's such a completely different experience and so much learning that happens. I guess through that too. Like every, every little experience. They don't really tell you it's going to be like that. I don't know. It's just, it's funny. Like, you make these songs and you don't know where they're going to go and you don't really think about it and especially you don't think that they're going to get bigger than, you know, a couple hundred people maybe. Yeah, I feel lucky. They do. And then there's a whole other world that's like has nothing to do with even music that you're suddenly have to be, you have to be really good at and be really impressive at and like be a really good performer, especially as a woman, like you have to be a really good performer, you have to put on a really good show, you have to, you know, have this going on and this going on and like, it's like, wait, but I just was making songs. Like, where did that? Yeah, but I mean, I personally like love performing so much and I really, I really feel for people that, you know, make music because they love music and then have to go fucking perform it and they are like, I don't want to do that. I don't like doing that. And then are, you know, kind of shoved into that. I feel really lucky that I love performing and that that's like, honestly, part of why I do this is because of my love for that. Do you feel that way or are you not a fan of performing as much? Massively. I love touring. I love performing and being on the road. I feel like you look like you're good up there. You feel like you're you fit it up there. It took me a while to get really confident and feel really good in myself, just kind of learning what it's like, like the showmanship of like addressing a crowd because that's also another thing that you have to do when you get up and it's not just I'm going to get up and dance and sing my songs, but it's the interaction. It's kind of really sharing that moment with other people that, I guess for me, it just I just needed to get up and do it and practice kind of got me there. But yeah, I feel lucky that I enjoy that part because I think if I did it, it would be really, really hard. Yeah, man. It would be difficult. You know, you spend a lot of time away from the people that you love, but then you have all these incredible experiences, you know, on stage every night, and you get to experience these crowds and What you were saying just a bit earlier was about how there's a lot of eyeballs on you, people not only expected to get up and sing your songs and do that really, really well, but then you also get thrown into doing a lot of different things. And I feel like you've blossomed so much since your release of Ocean Eyes. And I mean, that was so many years ago. And now you're co-writing all your own music, you're directing your own music videos, your even writing songs for Disney movies. I mean, when was the moment in your life that you felt like you'd gained the confidence to step up to the plate and really let your voice be heard with every single thing that you touched? Gosh. Honestly, I have to say, when I think back to those first moments of that, I really have to be so appreciative of my 16-year-old, 15-year-old, 17-year-old self because I just couldn't have given less of a fuck about anything. And I nothing like, like, I just didn't, like, part of me is like, "Damn, was I disrespectful as shit for years?" And then I'm like, "No, I'm really glad I was like that because it made me so fearless and nothing was a big deal to me." But also, everything was exciting at the same time. So, you know, there was really, like, I would just say that nerves never held me back. And I miss that version of me. I feel like I still have that in me. But, you know, when I was a bit younger and starting out and just like, when like, my debut album came out in like 2019, I guess, like, just that period of me was just, "Oh, my God, I just didn't give a shit." And I thank God, because I wouldn't have done all the stuff that I did. I was fearless. I like, I didn't even think twice about stuff, you know, like, making songs for movies and, you know, the idea of, like, feeling worthy enough. I just didn't, I didn't even think about either side of that. I just was like, "Sure, I want to do that." But, yeah, I don't know if there was even a moment because I honestly, I was just like, thought, "This could end at any moment." And like, I'm just gonna do this stuff. And who cares? I don't, I don't care. And it seems fun. And, you know, at the same time, I didn't do what I didn't want to do. And so, no matter what was offered to me, I was like, "Ah, that's not interesting. I'm not gonna do it." And if it was interesting, no matter how stupid or cool it was, I was gonna do it. And I, I really appreciate that of my younger self. I think that over time, I've gotten less and less fearless and less and less confident. And just being that, that teenager that was just like, you couldn't do anything to impress her. Oh my God. I mean, I can't imagine meeting that version of myself. It's so scary. But I appreciate that about my own self. I was watching your Vanity Fair interview series. And there's some really, really nice moments in there. And there's, you know, in the latest one, where you talk about how there's like so much footage, you know, that there is a view. And I'm quoting you here. So nobody come for me where you're just saying, you know, being a little idiot when I was 16. Like, what was it like growing up with so much of your life having been, you know, recorded and broadcast? And, you know, especially because a lot of the listeners of the podcast are so young. And they're just only now thinking about their like digital footprint and putting stuff out on social media for the first time. Like, yeah. What do you think they should consider, you know, from your personal experience? God, I mean, I think about this a lot. I mean, it's just funny because I think back to me then, and I think about how even at the time I told myself, you know, like when you're older, just everything you put out, just like, think about like, are you going to regret this when you're older or are you going to be embarrassed or is somebody going to, you know, and I would do, I would do interviews with people, you know, over 35 and I was like 16 or 15 and they would always say to me, like, oh my God, if I had, like, how are you doing this right now? Because if I had any camera on me, when I was your age, I would be so mortified. And I remember thinking at the time, like, I'm not going to be, I'm not going to, why would I be mortified? I feel like I'm, I'm not doing crazy shit. And now I'm like, well, God, I'm like, growing up, it's scary. It's scary. And it's like, it just lives on. And it just never goes away. And like the only thing, you know, I saw some stupid inspirational quote yesterday that actually was, you got to love inspirational quotes, man, they're so corny, but sometimes they really do what they need to do. They hit sometimes they hit, right? They saw them in yesterday that was like, before you regret anything, remember that at one point, it was exactly what you wanted. And I was like, well, that's true. And I have always said, especially about fashion, I've always said since I was younger and to this day that, you know, people, because I used to wear a lot of crazy stuff and I still do. But especially when I was kind of coming up, I was just all I wanted was eyes on me, whether it was judgey eyes or happy eyes, whatever it was. And I just wanted people to look at me. And I would always say when somebody questioned me, I'd be like, you know what, it doesn't matter because this is what I want to do right now. And I'm always going to remember that. And so, you know, in the future, when I look back at whatever I was wearing now or now when I look back at what I was wearing when I was 10 and I'm like, you know, cringe, at least it was, you know, I'll always appreciate that it was exactly who I was at that time. And it was exactly what I wanted to be was exactly what I wanted to wear. And that's just that as much as I, you know, but this is the crazy thing like do a do I'm sure you do look at photos and videos of yourself from even like two or three years ago and just go like damn, I'm not this girl anymore. I mean, it's just it's scary. Like, I didn't think that was a thing when you're a teenager in the public eye. And so much of your career is like based around the fact that you're young. And then you get older and people are used to you being young. It's hard for you even to be like, oh, I'm growing up. I'm not that same person anymore. But nobody told me that when you grow up, you stop recognizing your younger self. I didn't know that was a part of growing up. I really, I really didn't. So my question is like, do you like experience that at all? Yeah, massively. But although there was a part of me that had no inhibitions, which I think you need some of to follow your dreams, contrary to you, I think I was really nervous when it came to it. I've had to spend a lot of time figuring it out and looking back. And I've realized I changed my process and sharpened my focus so much between my first and second records. And I think the same is happening with my third two. And you're in a similar album cycle. Have you found that too? You know, the changes in your process, goals and songwriting or even the way you enjoy making music? Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it's really big. It's like honestly, everything is different about it. I've been trying to compare recently just because I'm like, you know, getting used to doing it in a different way and trying to be like, it's okay to do that. I'm okay. I'm still able to do it. I'm capable still. But you know, like we started making music together. My brother and I in our childhood home in my brother's room and did that for a very long time. And then like moved it to my brother, bought a little house and then kind of started doing it there. And then he really moved in with his like girlfriend and they got a house. And then we started working in the basement there in this studio that he built up. And we did that for like all of the last album happier than ever. And that was like, we were like, okay, we got it all figured out. This is how we're going to do it from now on. And it works really well and did it. And you know, touring for a year and a half and and then coming back to it and being, you know, way older and also not even much older. But again, like the jump between 18 and 21 is a big jump. It just mentally and physically and realistically. And it's just been completely different. And so I've been having to kind of try to like again convince myself that it's okay. And then I haven't lost it. It's just different. But it's been like honestly, everything about it. Like the way that I exist in the room is different. I feel like my voice has completely changed since then, you know, I'm much more. I feel the same way. Right? Oh my God, the voice changing thing is a trip. It is a trip. Oh my God. I'm like, I don't know. It's all kind of shocking. And I feel like we've been working now making, you know, whatever we've been making for the last kind of half a year, I guess. And throughout I've just been like, dude, I don't know what I'm doing. I like don't know what I'm doing. And I feel like more recently, I've gotten a little bit more, like, okay, it's just changed. And I'm just figuring that out and like trying to like wield that in. It's hard to accept change. It really is. It's hard to get over, you know, but I did it this way for so long. And it worked so well. It's like, okay, well, you can't anymore. It's not how it's going to work. You're going to have to change it. And it's it's hard to accept. We'll be right back. Like hell that's for a tagline for the show. From the BBC, this is the interface. The show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. The easiest thing to do, I think, is to not change almost. It's like, become a creature of habit. Stay in your comfort zone. Remake the same thing that you've been making because you're comfortable in it. You feel good doing it. And you're good at it. But sometimes, like, when changes forced upon you and you're outside of your comfort zone, that's where things get really interesting. And it's terrifying and scary. And, you know, I completely feel you're like, I have no idea what I'm doing. And I don't even know if this is good or good enough or whatever, but you just have to go on that feeling. And it's definitely been a hard thing to adapt to. But it's also scary and exciting at the same time. Where do you think you feel like you've noticed the most growth in yourself? Like, in your music, in your personal life, in your mental health, like, however you want to take it, like, throughout this whole process? Gosh, I mean, everything. Like, I can't even, it's been such a jump. I can't even stress it enough. I think. In a good way? Yeah. It's just growing up. Like, just growing up has been a lot of growth. I think that the thing that I've noticed is growing the most, if I'm really thinking about it. My comptorability with myself, I think, and feeling comfortable enough in my body to let that not control my entire day-to-day life anymore. I guess, and just being. I think I've become a lot more versatile as a person. I think there was a couple of years when I was kind of like, "No, this is who I am. It's what I want to do." And not doing anything else. Or more like, "I'm scared to do anything else." And I don't feel like I'm not going to do it well. And I think, over the last couple of years, I've really let myself, you know, be like, "You know what? If I'm interested in wearing this, I'm going to wear this." Or, "If I'm interested in doing this, I'm going to do this." And I'm not going to just let this box that I've created around myself, time me down. It's so true. It's kind of just not allowing that to dictate how you act in the moment. I know your family is a huge support system for you, and mine is really, I'm really close to my family too, but outside of them, who would you consider mentors or guiding lights in your life, and what's some advice that they've given to you that you hold close? To be honest, it's really just been my family. I mean, I've obviously had lots of friends along the way that have helped me, you know, stay grounded, but my closest friends really truly are my brother and my parents. I mean, it's just the way that it is. And I'm fine with it. I think there was a period where I was maybe insecure. Like, I'm really close with my family. Am I a loser? But I'm like, no. I'm not much more fine with it now. I really love my family, and I think my brother has been a really, you know, he just snaps me back into reality, you know, I think like sometimes even friends or like co-workers kind of, you might feel a little too comfortable being a baby and like being kind of, you know, sensitive about stuff and a little bit. I don't know, I guess weak. I don't know. And then, you know, when I'm with my brother and I kind of complain about shit, shut up, snap out of that. Like, don't do that. That's we're not going to do that. And I just, I always appreciate that. Like, there's certain times when I really appreciate Phineas' kind of just like ability to be my brother or my sibling and just be straight up with me. And he also, you know, he makes me laugh more than anybody. And like, we just, we get through it together. I don't know how I would have done any of this without my brother. And without my mom and my dad. My mom is also, I would say, on top of everything, my mom is the reason that I haven't lost my mind and that I'm, you know, anything I've experienced good or bad or not good or bad, but really everything that I've experienced and being able to get through it and cope is just all my mom. My mom is like the key to my career. And not like she's a momager, she's just a support system that is why I'm not completely, you know, a loony now. I love that. I think it's really important to have something so grounding and to be able to have your family around all the time. It's really special. And yeah, I think that's amazing. Something that, let's given me a lot of freedom to pursue other passions alongside music is my editorial platform service 95 and this very podcast. And I've really been inspired watching how your own activism and passions have evolved. And I feel like you've taken a very conscious decision to elevate voices of others rather than taking center stage for yourself. When and why did you shift your attention and focused on voices outside of your own? Well, again, my mom, my mom has always, always been a step ahead of me. I've always been a step ahead of everyone. I feel like in terms of just knowledge on environment and, you know, injustice. And she's, since I was a little kid, been very honest and open with me about like the state of the world and the state of people and animals. And really just wasn't bullshitting me, you know, didn't raise me like the world is perfect and everything, you know, no, my mom was like, no, this is what's fucked up in the world and the system. And we're really privileged because we have this and this and this. And that's how I was raised. And I think like when I started to get bigger and more eyes were on me, they put you in meetings where you are making product, right? And you're designing stuff, but you're just putting more shit out into the world and like selling more shit. And you don't really think about how wasteful it is. I mean, nobody really tells you. And for my mom, just being in these meetings like, guys, is anybody like being cautious of like how bad this is for the environment? And like, if there's a way that we can do it, I know you have to do it. Is there a way that we can do it in a way that isn't completely destroying the planet? I mean, is anybody, you know, and then I was opened up to that. It's shocking. How many things could be done in a ethical way and aren't? I mean, shocking. So I think that was like really the beginning of it. And then in COVID, my mom started a nonprofit called Support and Feed, which was giving food to people in need and helping restaurants, mainly like plant-based restaurants that were going to have business because it was COVID. Over time, I was like, can I like help? Because I am not an expert, you know, and my mom is not an expert either, but she's hell of a lot closer to an expert than me. And she's really educated on the subject. And I'm not. And so, you know, my whole thing is like, I'm really not interested in me using this word again. Bullshitting. I'm not going to sit here and be like, I'm very educated on the environment and how to make it. I don't know. I just want to try. I want to help. And so what I want to do is go, here's my platform. Let me shut up and you come and step on it. Like come and tell people what's going on and educate me and teach me. And it's just a waste otherwise. I just don't know why. I just feel like an idiot sometimes. Like if I'm not doing something to help, I don't know what I'm doing. It's so cool to see you with such a big platform to really actively try and make such a progressive change and shout out to your mom to giving you all those values so early on and for helping you. Yeah, man. You know, guiding you in that direction as well. And I think it's also cool you did the summit in London last year. I think it was overheated. All the baby steps that you take to get to the cause to, you know, see an active change in the world. It is so positive and so amazing all the work that you do around it. Yes. I mean, Billy, you literally don't stop working. from like your eyes. activism, you also made your acting debut appearing in Donald Glover's new series Swarm. And you played this like frightening cult leader named Ava. And I know that before you were a dancer, before you were a singer, but have you always wanted to act? What was that experience like and did it spark something creatively different in you than making music does? I mean, it's such a different thing. I really wanted to be an actor when I was a kid. My brother was an actor. My parents were actors. And I loved acting. I mean, I loved it. I was the, you know, trying to be in every play that I could be in and dying to be in. I mean, I would just watch any movie or show or music video that had a little girl in it. And I'd be like, that should be me. I used to be so furious that I wasn't the little girls in movies. I mean, like furious, the actors furious at the director and the casting. I was stupid. But then, you know, a couple years of, I grew up as a dancer. And that was, that was really like my plan was I was going to be a dancer. And that's all I cared about. And my brother kept acting. And I just was like, yeah, that's not, I don't, I don't know, I don't do that. So I kind of, for a couple of years, was like, oh, fuck acting. I'd stupid. And really, I think it was just me being a sore loser. And him, you know, getting some parts in me, not, I just always been like, I think I'm bad. And I also, there's other stuff that used to be more interesting to me. But I've always loved it secretly. So, yeah, I've always kind of wanted to do it. And when the opportunity came up for, for swarm, like, it was pitched to me as a pass because I was going to be busy for the shoot of it. And so, my team was kind of like, you know, this is happening, but you're probably going to be busy. So we should probably, you know, not going to be able to do it. And I was just like, wait, and I just couldn't, couldn't not. And the shoot was incredible. I mean, it was literally like one of the best weeks of my life. It was so much fun. And I just felt like, I felt really good. It felt great. I, it made me excited for the future. I think like, I surprised myself in that I don't think I was absolutely terrible. So I mean, I've always dreamed of being shit. Okay. I can't lie to you. So yes, I would like to do that. My listeners have actually written in a question on the topic of growing up. And it says, what was the hardest pill you have had to swallow when it comes to adulting? I'm really a spill. God, there's a lot of pills. I honestly just not being a kid anymore is really, it just, it really comes up from behind you and then suddenly fucking stabs you in the face. Like, honestly, as basic as that is because we all grow up, I've really had a lot of trouble accepting that I'm not a child anymore. And then I never will be again. I mean, it's absolutely devastating. It's devastating. Devastated. I'm not a child anymore. I mean, yeah. Fuck, when I had to start doing dishes and washing my clothes and tidying up my room. And that was, oh yeah. Yeah. That was a hard pill to swallow for me for sure. Going to the doctor alone. Oh, so scary. Making all your appointments yourself. Oh my god. Oh my god. Billy, we have seen so much evolution from you in a short space of time, from music to directing, acting, activism and so much more. So what can we expect next? And when can we expect Billy Eilish 3? Oh shit. We'll see, man. I don't even know. I feel like Phineas and I are just hate to say it, but only starting to really hit our stride for this next album, I think like, but I'm feeling good about it. I'm not worried really. I think there was a bit of time, a couple months before I was like, oh god, what am I doing? And now I feel pretty comfortable and confident and excited. And honestly, right now we're just working on like little things here and there. You know, we've got some exciting stuff in the summer. But you know, like I just like doing stuff like that. I like, you know, stuff that's more than just music. That's next. And then, you know, when there's music, there's music. And I don't know when the hell that'll be, but it'll happen eventually. It's there. It just has to happen. Well, whenever it's ready, I'm excited. I know everybody listening to this is excited. So we're ready. Really, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate your time. I love to end my conversations with a list from my guest. And we all know how much you love the American version of the office. Oh yeah. For fellow fans, the show, what are five other series we can watch when we've been the office too many times? I would say these are like top top shows for me. I would say like Fleabag. Love. Absolutely. So good. Unbeatable. Barry is incredible. Bojack Horseman is great show. I love Bojack Horseman. I would say New Girl is always a classic. I've seen New Girl about a thousand times. And then maybe like a rest of development. I don't know. There's there's a lot more. But I think those are like my top, those are my top choices, I would say. There's a couple on there I haven't seen. So I got to get on that. Billy, thank you so, so much for your time. Thank you for doing this with me. I'm very excited for everything that's that's to come for you. I will be cheering you on and I'll see you very soon. All right. I will see you soon. Bye. See you soon. I'm so happy to be able to share our conversation with you all. I've absolutely loved coming up in this industry alongside Billy for all these years. I mean, what a gift to hear how she's found growing up. I find her really inspiring and so thoughtful and funny and warm. So I really hope that you've all enjoyed our conversation too. We've also got an exclusive list from Billy and this week's Service 95 Newsletter, which you can find in full at service95.com. It's free to sign up with new issues hitting your inbox every Thursday. Thanks so much for tuning in. Thanks again to Billy and I hope to see you all again next week. I'm Lauren Famon and this is six degrees from James Spencer. You know what, I spent what I have pulled out some big names for our podcast recently. What are you talking about? JLo, Morgan Freeman, Samuel Jackson, Derek, I say more. They came on cause apparently rumours it. They love me. You know that they're only talking to you to get to me. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm producer Phil. I'm the one that gets us the A-list guests room here. So join us for the podcast that's all about making new friends and have lots of fun on the way and hopefully we stay friends too. Beautiful. Six degrees from James Spencer. This is going to be amazing. Only on BBC Sounds. Like hell that for a tagline for the show. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life and all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.